WEBVTT - The Rumor from Deep Cover: The Nameless Man 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796 Bushkin. 0:00:18.876 --> 0:00:21.236 It all started with a rumor that went like this. 0:00:22.276 --> 0:00:25.756 Back in nineteen eighty nine, at a high school prom, 0:00:25.956 --> 0:00:29.396 a white teenager boasted that he had just committed murder. 0:00:30.076 --> 0:00:32.396 He showed off a fresh tattoo as a badge of 0:00:32.516 --> 0:00:36.236 honor for killing a black man. That was the rumor, anyhow, 0:00:36.396 --> 0:00:38.916 and no one took it seriously until two thousand and four, 0:00:39.436 --> 0:00:43.196 when two federal agents began looking into it. But here's 0:00:43.236 --> 0:00:47.596 the thing. Unlike almost every other murder case, in this case, 0:00:48.196 --> 0:00:51.116 the agents had a suspect but no idea who the 0:00:51.196 --> 0:00:54.436 victim was. In the new season of deep Cover The 0:00:54.516 --> 0:00:59.076 Nameless Man, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Jake Halpern tells the 0:00:59.116 --> 0:01:02.796 epic tale of the two federal agents who investigate the 0:01:02.876 --> 0:01:06.236 murder and the story of a family searching for answers 0:01:06.596 --> 0:01:10.756 about why their brother was killed. These two storylines collide 0:01:11.116 --> 0:01:15.796 in a court ruined Philadelphia, where murder, memory, and morality 0:01:16.236 --> 0:01:19.716 go on trial. Today you'll hear a preview from the show, 0:01:19.956 --> 0:01:21.796 and if you want to hear more, you can listen 0:01:21.836 --> 0:01:25.796 to Deep Cover The Nameless Man wherever you get your podcasts, 0:01:26.196 --> 0:01:28.036 And if you want to hear the entire season, right 0:01:28.076 --> 0:01:32.236 now add free sign up for Pushkin Plus in Apple 0:01:32.276 --> 0:01:37.476 Podcasts or by visiting pushkin dot Fm, slash Plus. 0:01:38.036 --> 0:01:38.596 Here's Jake. 0:01:40.036 --> 0:01:43.036 I've been a journalist for twenty five years and there's 0:01:43.036 --> 0:01:44.956 this little ritual that I do at the end of 0:01:45.036 --> 0:01:49.796 every interview. When it works, it shakes everything up, creates 0:01:49.796 --> 0:01:53.676 a bit of chaos. I call it the hail Mary 0:01:53.716 --> 0:01:57.396 of questions. It's like a last ditch effort to find 0:01:57.436 --> 0:02:01.836 something anything that I might have missed. I just say, hey, 0:02:02.476 --> 0:02:05.996 what's the question I should have asked you. Most of 0:02:06.036 --> 0:02:09.556 the time, like ninety percent of the time, there is 0:02:10.116 --> 0:02:12.796 I don't know. I think we covered it all. But 0:02:13.756 --> 0:02:18.636 every once in a while a person says, well, there 0:02:18.716 --> 0:02:22.796 is one thing we didn't talk about, and then they 0:02:22.876 --> 0:02:27.196 drop a bomb, say something totally unexpected, And at that 0:02:27.316 --> 0:02:34.596 moment I always imagine a door creaking open. That, in 0:02:34.636 --> 0:02:38.036 a nutshell, is what this season is about. It's about 0:02:38.036 --> 0:02:41.916 a guy, two guys actually, who come upon just such 0:02:41.956 --> 0:02:44.796 a door, and on the other side of it is 0:02:44.796 --> 0:02:54.396 a very dark secret. These two guys were federal officers. 0:02:54.836 --> 0:02:57.436 One of them was an FBI agent based in Delaware 0:02:57.756 --> 0:03:02.716 named Scott Duffy and Scott he has his own version 0:03:02.876 --> 0:03:04.076 of the hail Mary question. 0:03:05.316 --> 0:03:08.316 One of the things that like I will routinely do 0:03:08.916 --> 0:03:13.196 is is is there anything that we should be looking 0:03:13.236 --> 0:03:18.796 at that could be investigated that we're not looking at. 0:03:20.316 --> 0:03:23.476 Back in two thousand and four, Scott posed this very 0:03:23.556 --> 0:03:27.516 question to a woman named Patricia Miller. At the time, 0:03:27.676 --> 0:03:30.676 Scott was visiting Patricia at her home in Delaware to 0:03:30.756 --> 0:03:34.356 learn more about her ex boyfriend, a guy named Tom Guybison. 0:03:35.276 --> 0:03:38.236 There had been some rumors that Tom, her ex, was 0:03:38.276 --> 0:03:41.596 plotting to go after a local cop, and the FBI 0:03:41.676 --> 0:03:44.196 had asked Scott to look into this to do a 0:03:44.276 --> 0:03:48.356 so called threat assessment. Scott didn't get that much out 0:03:48.396 --> 0:03:52.356 of this interview with Patricia, but before leaving, he tossed 0:03:52.396 --> 0:03:56.396 out his hal Mary question, and that's when she told 0:03:56.436 --> 0:03:57.996 him about the murder. 0:03:58.876 --> 0:04:02.556 She mentions, well, there is this alleged murder to have 0:04:02.596 --> 0:04:07.796 taken place that when he was in high school, that 0:04:07.996 --> 0:04:11.796 he had committed ad for a black man in order 0:04:11.876 --> 0:04:16.756 to gain access into this white supremacy group within Delaware. 0:04:17.876 --> 0:04:21.236 Patricia goes on to say that Tom, her ex, was 0:04:21.596 --> 0:04:24.436 proud of this murder. It happened back when he was younger. 0:04:24.476 --> 0:04:28.156 A teenager, but even years later, he bragged about what 0:04:28.236 --> 0:04:32.036 he'd done, how he'd driven into Philadelphia late at night 0:04:32.356 --> 0:04:36.836 and shot a pedestrian, a random black man, all allegedly 0:04:36.996 --> 0:04:40.436 so we could earn some street cred as a racist skinhead. 0:04:47.476 --> 0:04:51.716 Scott pressed Patricia for details. Was there any evidence? Did 0:04:51.756 --> 0:04:55.676 she have any proof? According to Scott, she talked about 0:04:55.716 --> 0:04:59.276 a newspaper article from the time about the man's death 0:04:59.956 --> 0:05:03.396 and how it was described as a drug related killing. 0:05:04.076 --> 0:05:06.316 She said that Tom held onto this article for a 0:05:06.356 --> 0:05:11.396 while so we could brag about it, intimating no one knows. 0:05:11.596 --> 0:05:12.596 But I did this. 0:05:13.276 --> 0:05:18.676 I killed this guy. That's what Patricia said. Anyhow, all 0:05:18.716 --> 0:05:22.876 of this got Scott thinking, if this murder really happened, 0:05:23.596 --> 0:05:26.716 maybe it wasn't so random after all. Maybe it was 0:05:26.796 --> 0:05:30.876 predicated on a callous, cynical piece of logic that no 0:05:30.916 --> 0:05:34.396 one would care about this victim, or at least no 0:05:34.396 --> 0:05:36.636 one in a position of power or authority. 0:05:37.596 --> 0:05:40.196 If there's no evidence, and there's no witnesses, no cameras, 0:05:40.956 --> 0:05:43.596 so let's move on, And that's what Tom would be 0:05:43.636 --> 0:05:46.796 banking on, and just be a drug deal gone bad 0:05:46.996 --> 0:05:49.276 that bothered me, that bothered me. 0:05:51.396 --> 0:05:54.316 Scott may have been upset about all this, but he 0:05:54.436 --> 0:05:57.356 was also at a loss. How do you investigate a 0:05:57.476 --> 0:06:01.476 murder when you don't even know who the victim is. Eventually, 0:06:01.596 --> 0:06:03.756 Scott and his partner paid a visit to the Free 0:06:03.756 --> 0:06:07.836 Public Library of Philadelphia. They wanted to find that newspaper 0:06:07.916 --> 0:06:12.516 article covering the victim's death. Scott recalled Patricia, saying it 0:06:12.556 --> 0:06:16.396 was in the Philadelphia Inquirer. They felt like if they 0:06:16.396 --> 0:06:19.556 could just somehow get a hold of that article, it 0:06:19.676 --> 0:06:21.596 might answer so many questions. 0:06:22.396 --> 0:06:25.076 In other words, would this give us a name? Would 0:06:25.076 --> 0:06:28.036 this give us a location? Would this give us a date? 0:06:28.116 --> 0:06:30.956 Because we still didn't have a date. But there's got 0:06:30.996 --> 0:06:34.596 to be countless articles people that were just randomly killed 0:06:34.596 --> 0:06:37.436 in Philadelphia. Not only countless articles, but then you realize 0:06:37.476 --> 0:06:39.676 there are other newspapers. What if she's wrong, it's not 0:06:39.716 --> 0:06:44.196 the Philadelphia Inquiry. It sounds like a fool's Errand I'm 0:06:44.196 --> 0:06:47.076 glad we did it. I'm glad we made the trip, 0:06:47.476 --> 0:06:51.436 but I don't think we found anything nothing. 0:06:52.476 --> 0:06:57.476 So game over right, I mean, this murder, if it 0:06:57.556 --> 0:07:02.076 even happened, would have occurred approximately fifteen years prior. It 0:07:02.156 --> 0:07:06.316 was a cold case. And yet Scott and his partner, 0:07:06.476 --> 0:07:10.276 a guy named Terry Mortimer. They had this feeling that 0:07:10.676 --> 0:07:12.396 if they persisted. 0:07:12.796 --> 0:07:19.156 We might uncover something we're destined to uncover. That may 0:07:19.236 --> 0:07:25.636 sound corny, but I felt something. I think Terry felt something, 0:07:26.396 --> 0:07:28.556 and we didn't know quite what, and it could have 0:07:28.556 --> 0:07:32.156 been absolutely taking us down another rabbit hole of something 0:07:32.196 --> 0:07:33.596 that's just never could be proven. 0:07:34.276 --> 0:07:35.196 So what do you do with that? 0:07:36.076 --> 0:07:37.596 Exactly? What do you do with that? What do you 0:07:37.636 --> 0:07:38.716 do with something that's. 0:07:38.556 --> 0:07:40.236 Yeah and not to be cute, but you can't exactly 0:07:40.316 --> 0:07:42.036 go back to your boss and say that me and 0:07:42.116 --> 0:07:47.196 Terry feel a sense of destiny here right now. So 0:07:47.276 --> 0:07:50.596 this was mission creep big time. Plus it's not like 0:07:50.636 --> 0:07:54.156 there was anyone that they knew of anyhow demanding justice 0:07:54.196 --> 0:07:55.436 for the victim. 0:07:55.796 --> 0:07:59.796 Terry and I could have easily said we're done and 0:08:00.036 --> 0:08:04.236 let's walk away. Nobody's going to be calling us to say, hey, 0:08:04.316 --> 0:08:07.156 Terry and Scott, do you have any updates for us? 0:08:08.076 --> 0:08:10.356 You know we're waiting. Haven't heard back from you? 0:08:10.716 --> 0:08:13.956 That was missing, But is somewhere in the back of 0:08:13.996 --> 0:08:18.076 your head, are you imagining that, like there is a 0:08:18.156 --> 0:08:22.516 mother or brother who's trying to understand or figure out 0:08:22.516 --> 0:08:24.716 what may have happened to their loved one that was 0:08:26.036 --> 0:08:35.236 left for dead. I think that aspect was the driving factor. 0:08:36.116 --> 0:08:41.196 We couldn't just leave it alone. Somehow it was making 0:08:41.356 --> 0:08:45.396 sense that Terry and I were put together for this 0:08:45.796 --> 0:08:53.036 very reason of solving this hate crime, this murder that 0:08:53.116 --> 0:08:56.836 took place on the streets of Philadelphia because somebody was black, 0:08:58.396 --> 0:09:04.916 that we've felt like we had a duty to this person, 0:09:04.956 --> 0:09:07.196 and somehow this person was. 0:09:08.836 --> 0:09:09.516 Drawn us. 0:09:11.636 --> 0:09:15.716 And that's it. You can almost hear it, the door 0:09:15.996 --> 0:09:22.956 creaking open. This is a story about what happens when 0:09:23.036 --> 0:09:27.996 two guys uncover a clue about something terrible, something evil, 0:09:28.756 --> 0:09:31.676 a crime for which there has been no justice, and 0:09:31.716 --> 0:09:35.276 they have nothing to go on. They don't have a victim, 0:09:35.676 --> 0:09:53.236 don't have a body, don't even have a name. I'm 0:09:53.316 --> 0:09:57.676 Jake Halper and this is Deep Cover Season four, The 0:09:57.756 --> 0:10:25.116 Nameless Man, Episode one. The rumor, so to recap, Scott 0:10:25.116 --> 0:10:28.196 and Terry's investigation did not start off as a quest 0:10:28.196 --> 0:10:32.996 to solve a cold case now or find a murder victim. Originally, 0:10:33.356 --> 0:10:36.156 back in two thousand and four, they were asked to 0:10:36.196 --> 0:10:39.876 do a threat assessment on tom Gybison. That's why they 0:10:39.916 --> 0:10:44.276 interviewed the ex girlfriend. At the time, Tom Gobison was 0:10:44.276 --> 0:10:47.236 thirty three years old. He was in federal prison on 0:10:47.356 --> 0:10:50.996 gun charges, but he was about to be released, and 0:10:51.036 --> 0:10:55.076 the Feds had some intel that Tom might be seeking retribution, 0:10:55.796 --> 0:10:59.076 planning to harm the cop who'd put him behind bars. 0:10:59.676 --> 0:11:02.636 This is why the FEDS were called in, and initially 0:11:02.876 --> 0:11:06.436 this was Scott and Terry's top priority to determine if 0:11:06.436 --> 0:11:09.556 this threat was real. But they came up short and 0:11:09.596 --> 0:11:12.716 at some point stopped looking into Tom for the threat assessment. 0:11:13.596 --> 0:11:17.716 But they still have this rumor, this side story that 0:11:17.916 --> 0:11:21.596 some fifteen years prior, back in the nineteen eighties, when 0:11:21.636 --> 0:11:24.196 Tom was still in high school, that he may have 0:11:24.316 --> 0:11:29.316 killed a black man in Philadelphia. Who this man might be, 0:11:29.996 --> 0:11:34.476 They had no idea, but they kept poking around. They 0:11:34.516 --> 0:11:37.436 wanted to see what they could learn about Tom Guybison 0:11:37.916 --> 0:11:42.516 and if he had any connections to white supremacist gangs. 0:11:44.076 --> 0:11:48.196 And this is where Terry Mortimer, Scott's partner, really came 0:11:48.236 --> 0:11:48.796 into play. 0:11:49.676 --> 0:11:52.276 And this is thing about gangs is there are gangs 0:11:52.316 --> 0:11:55.076 and there's like, you know, not real gangs that people 0:11:55.076 --> 0:11:56.596 say they're part of a gang, but they aren't. Kind 0:11:56.636 --> 0:11:56.956 of thing. 0:11:57.676 --> 0:12:01.076 Terry was a special agent with the ATF, the Bureau 0:12:01.156 --> 0:12:06.276 of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. He worked in intelligence 0:12:06.956 --> 0:12:12.356 and he focused heavily on guns and gangs. So Terry 0:12:12.356 --> 0:12:14.836 wanted to know what was Tom's deal. 0:12:16.116 --> 0:12:19.516 I knew he of course was imprisoned obviously for gun charges. 0:12:19.636 --> 0:12:24.276 You know, spent a good stint in prison federally. He 0:12:24.316 --> 0:12:26.036 had the I guess prior contact with the law. 0:12:26.716 --> 0:12:29.796 Terry learned that Tom was first arrested at the age 0:12:29.796 --> 0:12:34.116 of fourteen on a deadly weapons charge. A few years later, 0:12:34.276 --> 0:12:37.916 when he was nineteen, he was convicted of reckless endangerment 0:12:38.396 --> 0:12:40.956 after he shot a gun at a moving car full 0:12:40.996 --> 0:12:46.436 of people. At the time, a local newspaper in Wilmington, 0:12:46.476 --> 0:12:50.236 Delaware ran an article on Tom. It described him as 0:12:50.276 --> 0:12:54.436 a hulking weightlifter with a number of tattoos, including a 0:12:54.476 --> 0:12:57.436 clenched fist on the top of his scalp and the 0:12:57.476 --> 0:13:00.836 words born in the USA on the back of his neck. 0:13:01.716 --> 0:13:04.636 In the article, Guy Bison says at one time he 0:13:04.796 --> 0:13:08.996 was a blue collar skinhead. Tom defined this as quote 0:13:09.476 --> 0:13:14.916 buying American, not doing drugs, and not drinking. To be clear, 0:13:15.236 --> 0:13:18.596 there are different types of skinheads. Not all are racists, 0:13:19.116 --> 0:13:22.396 But in the late eighties and early nineties, skinheads were 0:13:22.436 --> 0:13:25.476 emerging as the face of violent right wing nationalism in 0:13:25.516 --> 0:13:29.476 the US. Their notoriety seemed to really pique at that time. 0:13:30.076 --> 0:13:32.916 One headline from eighty nine and the New York Times read, 0:13:33.476 --> 0:13:40.596 violent racism attracts new breed skinheads. So the possibility that 0:13:40.676 --> 0:13:44.636 a racist skinhead might have orchestrated murder it was plausible, 0:13:45.356 --> 0:13:48.556 but that alone wasn't a whole lot to go on. 0:13:53.236 --> 0:13:56.316 Scott and Terry decided to focus on what Patricia, the 0:13:56.356 --> 0:13:59.596 ex girlfriend, had told them. They honed in on two 0:13:59.676 --> 0:14:05.476 clues in particular. The first clue involved a tattoo. Patricia 0:14:05.556 --> 0:14:08.836 mentioned that Tom had a tattoo of a spiderweb on 0:14:08.876 --> 0:14:12.196 his own with a tear drop in it, and that 0:14:12.236 --> 0:14:16.036 he liked to brag that he'd gotten it, essentially as 0:14:16.116 --> 0:14:20.196 a badge of honor for killing a black man in Philadelphia. 0:14:20.756 --> 0:14:24.116 I know enough about gang members is sometimes things aren't 0:14:24.116 --> 0:14:26.556 what they say they are, that they though I get 0:14:26.596 --> 0:14:29.076 a tattoo and purported to be something that really isn't true, 0:14:29.196 --> 0:14:31.156 or just kind of build their rap a little bit. 0:14:31.876 --> 0:14:34.996 Terry was skeptical that Tom had killed someone just to 0:14:35.076 --> 0:14:39.636 join this skinhead gang. Maybe tom was just posing, building 0:14:39.716 --> 0:14:43.276 up his rap as a really violent dude. I mean, honestly, 0:14:43.876 --> 0:14:45.956 maybe this whole thing was bullshit, right. 0:14:46.636 --> 0:14:50.076 I couldn't really establish, you know, intelligence wise, if Tommy 0:14:50.116 --> 0:14:52.116 was part of a skinhead gang. I didn't think he was. 0:14:52.196 --> 0:14:54.996 I think he was kind of more self described skinhead. 0:14:55.676 --> 0:14:59.876 And this raised the question, would a self described skinhead 0:15:00.116 --> 0:15:03.636 acting on his own, really murder someone for what? So 0:15:03.676 --> 0:15:06.196 he could give himself a tattoo? And all of this 0:15:06.356 --> 0:15:11.436 while he was still in high school seemed like stretch. Okay, 0:15:11.596 --> 0:15:14.516 here's the second clue, and it was a promising one. 0:15:15.316 --> 0:15:19.196 According to the ex girlfriend, Patricia, tom had bragged about 0:15:19.276 --> 0:15:24.556 having an accomplice, a guy named Craig Peterson. Allegedly they 0:15:24.676 --> 0:15:28.316 orchestrated this murder together and both of them got those 0:15:28.396 --> 0:15:34.076 same spider web tattoos. Now, if this was true, and 0:15:34.196 --> 0:15:37.156 if they could find Craig and if he would talk, 0:15:37.716 --> 0:15:41.476 well that'd be huge. But that was a lot of ifs. 0:15:42.236 --> 0:15:46.076 So they started combing through public records asking around about 0:15:46.116 --> 0:15:50.556 this Craig guy, the supposed accomplice, and here's what they found. 0:15:51.156 --> 0:15:53.876 Craig was an old buddy from Tom's high school days. 0:15:54.436 --> 0:15:59.996 He also identified specifically as a blue collar skinhead. Craig 0:16:00.036 --> 0:16:02.836 had grown up in Delaware, but as far as anyone 0:16:02.836 --> 0:16:06.356 could tell, he wasn't living there anymore. Seemed like he 0:16:06.716 --> 0:16:11.236 kind of disappeared. And then they got a lead. 0:16:11.956 --> 0:16:14.276 We found out he's in He's in Vermont, like a 0:16:14.556 --> 0:16:18.996 remote part of Vermont. And I remember, I said, this 0:16:19.076 --> 0:16:23.356 dude's hiding. Man, he's hiding. I said, that cat from Wilmington, 0:16:23.356 --> 0:16:25.756 Delaware living in Vermont. Man, I said, dude, it gets 0:16:25.756 --> 0:16:28.076 cold up there. Man, I mean, that's a cold place. Bro. 0:16:29.676 --> 0:16:32.596 So they put on their winter coats and headed north. 0:16:36.156 --> 0:16:39.236 It was now December of two thousand and four. It 0:16:39.276 --> 0:16:41.756 had been about a month since they first heard the rumor, 0:16:42.396 --> 0:16:45.836 and now here they were in the car, driving into 0:16:45.876 --> 0:16:49.556 the chill of a Vermont winter. Temperature was hovering around 0:16:49.596 --> 0:16:53.196 freezing that night, and as they sped along through the 0:16:53.196 --> 0:16:57.916 green mountains, past the darkened forests of evergreens, they had 0:16:57.996 --> 0:17:02.356 no idea what to expect, Like, what are you hoping 0:17:02.396 --> 0:17:02.996 to find out? 0:17:03.516 --> 0:17:07.916 Hey? At this point, we're like, man, whatever he's got, 0:17:08.196 --> 0:17:10.516 he's got to give us something. Maybe because we're again 0:17:10.596 --> 0:17:13.556 we're spinning our wheels. It felt like, man, if this 0:17:13.596 --> 0:17:16.436 has come through, we're I think, honestly, I think we're done. 0:17:17.196 --> 0:17:20.676 Terry recalls on that drive up to Vermont, they talked 0:17:20.716 --> 0:17:23.876 a lot about why they couldn't or shouldn't give up 0:17:23.916 --> 0:17:24.476 on the case. 0:17:25.236 --> 0:17:28.356 So we had great discussions, and that's when I really 0:17:28.396 --> 0:17:30.356 we both realized, Wow, wait a minute, this is not 0:17:30.396 --> 0:17:32.396 an accident that he and I are team together. This 0:17:32.516 --> 0:17:35.756 is like, literally, we didn't do this, We couldn't planned. 0:17:35.516 --> 0:17:39.636 This, and there was a reason for this feeling. Turns 0:17:39.636 --> 0:17:42.996 out there was a strange symmetry to their lives that 0:17:43.156 --> 0:17:47.596 dated back before they ever met. So we're gonna leave 0:17:47.716 --> 0:17:50.516 Scott and Terry in the car heading up to Vermont 0:17:51.276 --> 0:17:59.716 and turn back the clock. For Scott, it all started 0:17:59.716 --> 0:18:02.756 when he graduated high school. He wanted to be a cop, 0:18:03.196 --> 0:18:06.516 but by his own estimation at the time, he was 0:18:06.556 --> 0:18:11.116 too small, too skinny, he wages ninety three pounds, so 0:18:11.436 --> 0:18:15.596 instead he opted to become a priest. He was just 0:18:15.676 --> 0:18:18.556 seventeen years old when he decided to join the seminary, 0:18:19.036 --> 0:18:22.236 but right away when he put on that priest's color, 0:18:22.796 --> 0:18:26.556 it was transformative, both for him and also for the 0:18:26.556 --> 0:18:28.716 way that other people looked at him. 0:18:29.076 --> 0:18:31.796 I would be sitting in a pew, maybe praying in 0:18:31.876 --> 0:18:35.516 a church. Somebody would come by and start confessing, and 0:18:35.996 --> 0:18:38.116 people just start pouring their souls out to me. 0:18:39.516 --> 0:18:42.756 In these moments, Scott was learning how to listen, how 0:18:42.756 --> 0:18:46.436 to suspend judgment, how to be patient as people grappled 0:18:46.436 --> 0:18:50.876 with some burdensome secret, inching their way towards the precipice 0:18:50.876 --> 0:18:54.756 of truth. He spent five years training to become a priest, 0:18:55.556 --> 0:18:59.556 but dreams are stubborn things, and his didn't go away. 0:19:00.636 --> 0:19:03.516 He left the Seminary to become a cop and then 0:19:03.556 --> 0:19:04.516 an FBI agent. 0:19:05.476 --> 0:19:08.116 It is harder to leave than it is to go in. 0:19:08.156 --> 0:19:11.156 And that's ultimately because I think, now you have ventured 0:19:11.236 --> 0:19:14.876 this relationship with God, and now you're afraid of pissing 0:19:14.916 --> 0:19:15.316 him off. 0:19:16.076 --> 0:19:19.796 For Scott, this shifting careers seemed like a natural progression 0:19:20.956 --> 0:19:24.956 for him. The seminary prepared him for this work, prepared 0:19:25.036 --> 0:19:28.076 him to listen and see his way through a messy 0:19:28.196 --> 0:19:32.276 world fraught with moral dilemmas. But when he'd tell people 0:19:32.476 --> 0:19:35.836 about his past, how he'd almost become a priest. 0:19:35.916 --> 0:19:39.996 They're like, oh, my gosh, I can never imagine the 0:19:40.036 --> 0:19:42.636 two are totally opposed to each other. And I never 0:19:42.756 --> 0:19:43.516 understood that. 0:19:44.396 --> 0:19:49.316 But there was at least one person who got it completely. Terry. 0:19:50.156 --> 0:19:53.636 I went to college at a very small Bible College 0:19:54.276 --> 0:19:55.876 and was preparing for ministry. 0:19:56.716 --> 0:19:59.796 From a young age. Terry felt destined for the ministry, 0:20:00.476 --> 0:20:03.196 but later on, when he was in Bible College, he 0:20:03.236 --> 0:20:07.436 had second thoughts. As graduation approached, a friend asked him, 0:20:07.996 --> 0:20:11.716 you ever consider becoming a cop? The short answer was no, 0:20:12.316 --> 0:20:15.516 But on a whim, Terry applied and met. 0:20:15.316 --> 0:20:16.076 With a recruiter. 0:20:16.596 --> 0:20:19.436 And this guy was a He was a hardcore dude. 0:20:19.436 --> 0:20:22.076 I mean he he looked at me. I was back then, 0:20:22.116 --> 0:20:24.876 I was skinny. He looked at me and said, you're 0:20:24.876 --> 0:20:27.476 from where and you want to do what? Like you're 0:20:27.476 --> 0:20:30.156 from Bible College. Man, you have any idea what you're 0:20:30.196 --> 0:20:32.756 applying for, what you're trying to do. I said, no, sir, 0:20:32.836 --> 0:20:34.196 I have no idea. 0:20:34.796 --> 0:20:37.916 Terry was undeterred. He became a cop and then an 0:20:37.916 --> 0:20:42.316 agent with the ATF. And this was not a consolation 0:20:42.516 --> 0:20:46.076 job for Terry. He's very clear about this. He feels 0:20:46.116 --> 0:20:49.156 that God had a purpose for him in law enforcement. 0:20:50.076 --> 0:20:52.756 And that's the thing you got to understand. About both 0:20:52.876 --> 0:20:55.756 Terry and Scott. These are not men who look at 0:20:55.796 --> 0:20:59.356 the world and see coincidences. What they see is much 0:20:59.396 --> 0:21:04.676 closer to fate or God's will. And when they became partners, 0:21:05.236 --> 0:21:07.916 it all seemed meant to be. Here were two guys 0:21:07.956 --> 0:21:11.436 who early on too skinny and earnest to be cops, 0:21:11.876 --> 0:21:14.756 guys who intended to become men of God. Different in 0:21:14.796 --> 0:21:17.876 their own ways. Terry grew up in a gritty river 0:21:17.956 --> 0:21:21.676 town in Pennsylvania, and he kind of feels like a dude. 0:21:21.796 --> 0:21:24.596 You'd play around a mini golf with, grab a burger, 0:21:24.796 --> 0:21:28.476 have a laugh, and then realize only belatedly, that you 0:21:28.596 --> 0:21:32.836 told him more than you intended to. Scott, well, he's 0:21:32.876 --> 0:21:36.556 more formal. He's from Connecticut. Are really Yankee, a man 0:21:36.596 --> 0:21:40.876 who chooses his words carefully, a patient priest who knows 0:21:40.916 --> 0:21:44.316 how to nurse a long pregnant pause. The two of 0:21:44.316 --> 0:21:48.956 them worked well together, complimented one another, the Pennsylvania pastor 0:21:49.436 --> 0:21:56.396 and the New England priest, and I've been calling them partners, 0:21:56.436 --> 0:22:00.316 but they only ever worked together on this one investigation. 0:22:01.076 --> 0:22:05.276 It was an unusual collaboration between the FBI and the ATF, 0:22:05.756 --> 0:22:08.396 and they didn't choose one another. They were kind of 0:22:08.436 --> 0:22:12.796 paired ran though neither of them would say it was random. 0:22:12.756 --> 0:22:14.516 You know, as we started realize we wait a minute, 0:22:14.516 --> 0:22:18.036 we're we're on a mission from God. 0:22:18.076 --> 0:22:22.556 But yep, just like the Blues Brothers. 0:22:23.156 --> 0:22:24.996 We didn't really say that, I'm just making it up, 0:22:24.996 --> 0:22:27.756 but that was the feeling was like, hey, no, but 0:22:27.836 --> 0:22:30.596 it was like, no joke, Like this is a real deal. 0:22:30.676 --> 0:22:33.756 Like it's almost like we're walking through almost like a dream, 0:22:33.796 --> 0:22:34.996 like what is going on here? 0:22:36.516 --> 0:22:39.836 So yeah, even though all they had was a rumor 0:22:40.156 --> 0:22:43.876 of a long forgotten crime that might not have even happened, 0:22:44.836 --> 0:22:48.676 these two almost ministers, the God Squad, as it were, 0:22:49.356 --> 0:22:52.676 still felt certain that they were here in this car 0:22:52.916 --> 0:22:56.836 heading north into Vermont for a reason, and they were 0:22:56.876 --> 0:23:01.836 convinced that something important was waiting for them. That's when 0:23:01.876 --> 0:23:29.276 we get back. Both Scott and Terry had this hunch 0:23:29.596 --> 0:23:33.076 that there was a reason Craig, the alleged accomplice, was 0:23:33.196 --> 0:23:37.036 up in Vermont, up in the mountains, that he was hiding. 0:23:37.916 --> 0:23:42.356 But if so, who is he hiding from and why? 0:23:43.396 --> 0:23:45.796 In any case, they knew they had to be careful. 0:23:46.356 --> 0:23:49.596 They'd learned from police reports that in the past Craig 0:23:49.636 --> 0:23:52.916 had helped Tom clean and store a whole arsenal of weapons. 0:23:53.636 --> 0:23:56.396 Why did he do this Well, Tom had a felony 0:23:56.396 --> 0:23:58.836 on his record, which meant he wasn't supposed to have 0:23:58.876 --> 0:24:02.676 any guns, so his buddy Craig helped him out. This 0:24:02.836 --> 0:24:06.876 suggested two things to the agents. One Craig was loyal. 0:24:07.356 --> 0:24:09.676 He ended up going to prison for storwing those weapons, 0:24:10.516 --> 0:24:14.796 And two, Craig was probably handy with a gun. The 0:24:14.876 --> 0:24:18.316 God Squad was still hatching their plan as they rolled 0:24:18.316 --> 0:24:18.876 into town. 0:24:23.076 --> 0:24:25.556 It was late. 0:24:26.396 --> 0:24:29.076 I feel like we were closing in on midnight, and 0:24:29.156 --> 0:24:31.956 we didn't want to put it off. We were just 0:24:31.996 --> 0:24:33.836 so full of energy. 0:24:35.396 --> 0:24:38.556 It was late for a door knock, very late, but 0:24:38.636 --> 0:24:43.316 their excitement eclips their caution, so instead of waiting until morning, 0:24:43.916 --> 0:24:47.076 they drove right to his house. Their plan was to 0:24:47.116 --> 0:24:50.796 say hello, introduce themselves, and arrange to have a formal 0:24:50.876 --> 0:24:54.076 sit down the following day. 0:24:54.116 --> 0:24:58.396 And when we finally found where he lives, he lives 0:24:58.396 --> 0:25:00.356 literally on top of like if it's on a mountain, 0:25:00.356 --> 0:25:02.436 it's a very very tall hill. It's very tall and 0:25:02.516 --> 0:25:02.996 very steep. 0:25:03.516 --> 0:25:09.636 I remember being very very dark. I don't think I 0:25:09.636 --> 0:25:12.716 could see my hand in front of me. And as 0:25:12.756 --> 0:25:16.156 soon as we got out of our cars, I think 0:25:16.516 --> 0:25:19.676 we got out a few feet and then floodlights I 0:25:19.756 --> 0:25:23.636 just remember, floodlights like we were in a stadium, just 0:25:23.876 --> 0:25:25.196 shined upon us. 0:25:26.596 --> 0:25:29.716 I mean it was like bright as day. He had 0:25:29.716 --> 0:25:33.116 hooked up these spotlights and trees illuminating the whole area, 0:25:33.556 --> 0:25:35.596 and we could see his house dimly up the top 0:25:35.636 --> 0:25:37.436 of the hill. I think I may have made a 0:25:37.436 --> 0:25:40.316 comment to Scott. I said, man, if he had any 0:25:40.316 --> 0:25:42.076 ill intent, he we'd be dead men right now. 0:25:42.876 --> 0:25:44.716 That told me a lot that. 0:25:45.676 --> 0:25:50.956 Wow, you know what is inside this person that he 0:25:51.036 --> 0:25:55.276 has this going on where he wants to be made 0:25:55.316 --> 0:25:57.276 well aware of anybody arriving. 0:25:58.716 --> 0:26:01.956 I'm thinking, man, he does not want to He doesn't 0:26:01.956 --> 0:26:08.276 want to be found. 0:26:08.316 --> 0:26:11.996 Scott and Tears start trudging up the icy, snow covered hill. 0:26:12.676 --> 0:26:16.476 They can hear dogs barking from within the house. Eventually 0:26:16.636 --> 0:26:20.156 they get up to the front porch and Craig walks out. 0:26:20.436 --> 0:26:24.236 He's medium height and stocky with a closely cropped haircut. 0:26:25.356 --> 0:26:26.356 Scott calls out to. 0:26:26.356 --> 0:26:29.476