1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Bushkin. 2 00:00:18,876 --> 00:00:21,236 Speaker 2: It all started with a rumor that went like this. 3 00:00:22,276 --> 00:00:25,756 Speaker 2: Back in nineteen eighty nine, at a high school prom, 4 00:00:25,956 --> 00:00:29,396 Speaker 2: a white teenager boasted that he had just committed murder. 5 00:00:30,076 --> 00:00:32,396 Speaker 2: He showed off a fresh tattoo as a badge of 6 00:00:32,516 --> 00:00:36,236 Speaker 2: honor for killing a black man. That was the rumor, anyhow, 7 00:00:36,396 --> 00:00:38,916 Speaker 2: and no one took it seriously until two thousand and four, 8 00:00:39,436 --> 00:00:43,196 Speaker 2: when two federal agents began looking into it. But here's 9 00:00:43,236 --> 00:00:47,596 Speaker 2: the thing. Unlike almost every other murder case, in this case, 10 00:00:48,196 --> 00:00:51,116 Speaker 2: the agents had a suspect but no idea who the 11 00:00:51,196 --> 00:00:54,436 Speaker 2: victim was. In the new season of deep Cover The 12 00:00:54,516 --> 00:00:59,076 Speaker 2: Nameless Man, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Jake Halpern tells the 13 00:00:59,116 --> 00:01:02,796 Speaker 2: epic tale of the two federal agents who investigate the 14 00:01:02,876 --> 00:01:06,236 Speaker 2: murder and the story of a family searching for answers 15 00:01:06,596 --> 00:01:10,756 Speaker 2: about why their brother was killed. These two storylines collide 16 00:01:11,116 --> 00:01:15,796 Speaker 2: in a court ruined Philadelphia, where murder, memory, and morality 17 00:01:16,236 --> 00:01:19,716 Speaker 2: go on trial. Today you'll hear a preview from the show, 18 00:01:19,956 --> 00:01:21,796 Speaker 2: and if you want to hear more, you can listen 19 00:01:21,836 --> 00:01:25,796 Speaker 2: to Deep Cover The Nameless Man wherever you get your podcasts, 20 00:01:26,196 --> 00:01:28,036 Speaker 2: And if you want to hear the entire season, right 21 00:01:28,076 --> 00:01:32,236 Speaker 2: now add free sign up for Pushkin Plus in Apple 22 00:01:32,276 --> 00:01:37,476 Speaker 2: Podcasts or by visiting pushkin dot Fm, slash Plus. 23 00:01:38,036 --> 00:01:38,596 Speaker 3: Here's Jake. 24 00:01:40,036 --> 00:01:43,036 Speaker 4: I've been a journalist for twenty five years and there's 25 00:01:43,036 --> 00:01:44,956 Speaker 4: this little ritual that I do at the end of 26 00:01:45,036 --> 00:01:49,796 Speaker 4: every interview. When it works, it shakes everything up, creates 27 00:01:49,796 --> 00:01:53,676 Speaker 4: a bit of chaos. I call it the hail Mary 28 00:01:53,716 --> 00:01:57,396 Speaker 4: of questions. It's like a last ditch effort to find 29 00:01:57,436 --> 00:02:01,836 Speaker 4: something anything that I might have missed. I just say, hey, 30 00:02:02,476 --> 00:02:05,996 Speaker 4: what's the question I should have asked you. Most of 31 00:02:06,036 --> 00:02:09,556 Speaker 4: the time, like ninety percent of the time, there is 32 00:02:10,116 --> 00:02:12,796 Speaker 4: I don't know. I think we covered it all. But 33 00:02:13,756 --> 00:02:18,636 Speaker 4: every once in a while a person says, well, there 34 00:02:18,716 --> 00:02:22,796 Speaker 4: is one thing we didn't talk about, and then they 35 00:02:22,876 --> 00:02:27,196 Speaker 4: drop a bomb, say something totally unexpected, And at that 36 00:02:27,316 --> 00:02:34,596 Speaker 4: moment I always imagine a door creaking open. That, in 37 00:02:34,636 --> 00:02:38,036 Speaker 4: a nutshell, is what this season is about. It's about 38 00:02:38,036 --> 00:02:41,916 Speaker 4: a guy, two guys actually, who come upon just such 39 00:02:41,956 --> 00:02:44,796 Speaker 4: a door, and on the other side of it is 40 00:02:44,796 --> 00:02:54,396 Speaker 4: a very dark secret. These two guys were federal officers. 41 00:02:54,836 --> 00:02:57,436 Speaker 4: One of them was an FBI agent based in Delaware 42 00:02:57,756 --> 00:03:02,716 Speaker 4: named Scott Duffy and Scott he has his own version 43 00:03:02,876 --> 00:03:04,076 Speaker 4: of the hail Mary question. 44 00:03:05,316 --> 00:03:08,316 Speaker 5: One of the things that like I will routinely do 45 00:03:08,916 --> 00:03:13,196 Speaker 5: is is is there anything that we should be looking 46 00:03:13,236 --> 00:03:18,796 Speaker 5: at that could be investigated that we're not looking at. 47 00:03:20,316 --> 00:03:23,476 Speaker 4: Back in two thousand and four, Scott posed this very 48 00:03:23,556 --> 00:03:27,516 Speaker 4: question to a woman named Patricia Miller. At the time, 49 00:03:27,676 --> 00:03:30,676 Speaker 4: Scott was visiting Patricia at her home in Delaware to 50 00:03:30,756 --> 00:03:34,356 Speaker 4: learn more about her ex boyfriend, a guy named Tom Guybison. 51 00:03:35,276 --> 00:03:38,236 Speaker 4: There had been some rumors that Tom, her ex, was 52 00:03:38,276 --> 00:03:41,596 Speaker 4: plotting to go after a local cop, and the FBI 53 00:03:41,676 --> 00:03:44,196 Speaker 4: had asked Scott to look into this to do a 54 00:03:44,276 --> 00:03:48,356 Speaker 4: so called threat assessment. Scott didn't get that much out 55 00:03:48,396 --> 00:03:52,356 Speaker 4: of this interview with Patricia, but before leaving, he tossed 56 00:03:52,396 --> 00:03:56,396 Speaker 4: out his hal Mary question, and that's when she told 57 00:03:56,436 --> 00:03:57,996 Speaker 4: him about the murder. 58 00:03:58,876 --> 00:04:02,556 Speaker 5: She mentions, well, there is this alleged murder to have 59 00:04:02,596 --> 00:04:07,796 Speaker 5: taken place that when he was in high school, that 60 00:04:07,996 --> 00:04:11,796 Speaker 5: he had committed ad for a black man in order 61 00:04:11,876 --> 00:04:16,756 Speaker 5: to gain access into this white supremacy group within Delaware. 62 00:04:17,876 --> 00:04:21,236 Speaker 4: Patricia goes on to say that Tom, her ex, was 63 00:04:21,596 --> 00:04:24,436 Speaker 4: proud of this murder. It happened back when he was younger. 64 00:04:24,476 --> 00:04:28,156 Speaker 4: A teenager, but even years later, he bragged about what 65 00:04:28,236 --> 00:04:32,036 Speaker 4: he'd done, how he'd driven into Philadelphia late at night 66 00:04:32,356 --> 00:04:36,836 Speaker 4: and shot a pedestrian, a random black man, all allegedly 67 00:04:36,996 --> 00:04:40,436 Speaker 4: so we could earn some street cred as a racist skinhead. 68 00:04:47,476 --> 00:04:51,716 Speaker 4: Scott pressed Patricia for details. Was there any evidence? Did 69 00:04:51,756 --> 00:04:55,676 Speaker 4: she have any proof? According to Scott, she talked about 70 00:04:55,716 --> 00:04:59,276 Speaker 4: a newspaper article from the time about the man's death 71 00:04:59,956 --> 00:05:03,396 Speaker 4: and how it was described as a drug related killing. 72 00:05:04,076 --> 00:05:06,316 Speaker 4: She said that Tom held onto this article for a 73 00:05:06,356 --> 00:05:11,396 Speaker 4: while so we could brag about it, intimating no one knows. 74 00:05:11,596 --> 00:05:12,596 Speaker 1: But I did this. 75 00:05:13,276 --> 00:05:18,676 Speaker 4: I killed this guy. That's what Patricia said. Anyhow, all 76 00:05:18,716 --> 00:05:22,876 Speaker 4: of this got Scott thinking, if this murder really happened, 77 00:05:23,596 --> 00:05:26,716 Speaker 4: maybe it wasn't so random after all. Maybe it was 78 00:05:26,796 --> 00:05:30,876 Speaker 4: predicated on a callous, cynical piece of logic that no 79 00:05:30,916 --> 00:05:34,396 Speaker 4: one would care about this victim, or at least no 80 00:05:34,396 --> 00:05:36,636 Speaker 4: one in a position of power or authority. 81 00:05:37,596 --> 00:05:40,196 Speaker 5: If there's no evidence, and there's no witnesses, no cameras, 82 00:05:40,956 --> 00:05:43,596 Speaker 5: so let's move on, And that's what Tom would be 83 00:05:43,636 --> 00:05:46,796 Speaker 5: banking on, and just be a drug deal gone bad 84 00:05:46,996 --> 00:05:49,276 Speaker 5: that bothered me, that bothered me. 85 00:05:51,396 --> 00:05:54,316 Speaker 4: Scott may have been upset about all this, but he 86 00:05:54,436 --> 00:05:57,356 Speaker 4: was also at a loss. How do you investigate a 87 00:05:57,476 --> 00:06:01,476 Speaker 4: murder when you don't even know who the victim is. Eventually, 88 00:06:01,596 --> 00:06:03,756 Speaker 4: Scott and his partner paid a visit to the Free 89 00:06:03,756 --> 00:06:07,836 Speaker 4: Public Library of Philadelphia. They wanted to find that newspaper 90 00:06:07,916 --> 00:06:12,516 Speaker 4: article covering the victim's death. Scott recalled Patricia, saying it 91 00:06:12,556 --> 00:06:16,396 Speaker 4: was in the Philadelphia Inquirer. They felt like if they 92 00:06:16,396 --> 00:06:19,556 Speaker 4: could just somehow get a hold of that article, it 93 00:06:19,676 --> 00:06:21,596 Speaker 4: might answer so many questions. 94 00:06:22,396 --> 00:06:25,076 Speaker 5: In other words, would this give us a name? Would 95 00:06:25,076 --> 00:06:28,036 Speaker 5: this give us a location? Would this give us a date? 96 00:06:28,116 --> 00:06:30,956 Speaker 5: Because we still didn't have a date. But there's got 97 00:06:30,996 --> 00:06:34,596 Speaker 5: to be countless articles people that were just randomly killed 98 00:06:34,596 --> 00:06:37,436 Speaker 5: in Philadelphia. Not only countless articles, but then you realize 99 00:06:37,476 --> 00:06:39,676 Speaker 5: there are other newspapers. What if she's wrong, it's not 100 00:06:39,716 --> 00:06:44,196 Speaker 5: the Philadelphia Inquiry. It sounds like a fool's Errand I'm 101 00:06:44,196 --> 00:06:47,076 Speaker 5: glad we did it. I'm glad we made the trip, 102 00:06:47,476 --> 00:06:51,436 Speaker 5: but I don't think we found anything nothing. 103 00:06:52,476 --> 00:06:57,476 Speaker 4: So game over right, I mean, this murder, if it 104 00:06:57,556 --> 00:07:02,076 Speaker 4: even happened, would have occurred approximately fifteen years prior. It 105 00:07:02,156 --> 00:07:06,316 Speaker 4: was a cold case. And yet Scott and his partner, 106 00:07:06,476 --> 00:07:10,276 Speaker 4: a guy named Terry Mortimer. They had this feeling that 107 00:07:10,676 --> 00:07:12,396 Speaker 4: if they persisted. 108 00:07:12,796 --> 00:07:19,156 Speaker 5: We might uncover something we're destined to uncover. That may 109 00:07:19,236 --> 00:07:25,636 Speaker 5: sound corny, but I felt something. I think Terry felt something, 110 00:07:26,396 --> 00:07:28,556 Speaker 5: and we didn't know quite what, and it could have 111 00:07:28,556 --> 00:07:32,156 Speaker 5: been absolutely taking us down another rabbit hole of something 112 00:07:32,196 --> 00:07:33,596 Speaker 5: that's just never could be proven. 113 00:07:34,276 --> 00:07:35,196 Speaker 3: So what do you do with that? 114 00:07:36,076 --> 00:07:37,596 Speaker 1: Exactly? What do you do with that? What do you 115 00:07:37,636 --> 00:07:38,716 Speaker 1: do with something that's. 116 00:07:38,556 --> 00:07:40,236 Speaker 4: Yeah and not to be cute, but you can't exactly 117 00:07:40,316 --> 00:07:42,036 Speaker 4: go back to your boss and say that me and 118 00:07:42,116 --> 00:07:47,196 Speaker 4: Terry feel a sense of destiny here right now. So 119 00:07:47,276 --> 00:07:50,596 Speaker 4: this was mission creep big time. Plus it's not like 120 00:07:50,636 --> 00:07:54,156 Speaker 4: there was anyone that they knew of anyhow demanding justice 121 00:07:54,196 --> 00:07:55,436 Speaker 4: for the victim. 122 00:07:55,796 --> 00:07:59,796 Speaker 5: Terry and I could have easily said we're done and 123 00:08:00,036 --> 00:08:04,236 Speaker 5: let's walk away. Nobody's going to be calling us to say, hey, 124 00:08:04,316 --> 00:08:07,156 Speaker 5: Terry and Scott, do you have any updates for us? 125 00:08:08,076 --> 00:08:10,356 Speaker 1: You know we're waiting. Haven't heard back from you? 126 00:08:10,716 --> 00:08:13,956 Speaker 5: That was missing, But is somewhere in the back of 127 00:08:13,996 --> 00:08:18,076 Speaker 5: your head, are you imagining that, like there is a 128 00:08:18,156 --> 00:08:22,516 Speaker 5: mother or brother who's trying to understand or figure out 129 00:08:22,516 --> 00:08:24,716 Speaker 5: what may have happened to their loved one that was 130 00:08:26,036 --> 00:08:35,236 Speaker 5: left for dead. I think that aspect was the driving factor. 131 00:08:36,116 --> 00:08:41,196 Speaker 5: We couldn't just leave it alone. Somehow it was making 132 00:08:41,356 --> 00:08:45,396 Speaker 5: sense that Terry and I were put together for this 133 00:08:45,796 --> 00:08:53,036 Speaker 5: very reason of solving this hate crime, this murder that 134 00:08:53,116 --> 00:08:56,836 Speaker 5: took place on the streets of Philadelphia because somebody was black, 135 00:08:58,396 --> 00:09:04,916 Speaker 5: that we've felt like we had a duty to this person, 136 00:09:04,956 --> 00:09:07,196 Speaker 5: and somehow this person was. 137 00:09:08,836 --> 00:09:09,516 Speaker 1: Drawn us. 138 00:09:11,636 --> 00:09:15,716 Speaker 4: And that's it. You can almost hear it, the door 139 00:09:15,996 --> 00:09:22,956 Speaker 4: creaking open. This is a story about what happens when 140 00:09:23,036 --> 00:09:27,996 Speaker 4: two guys uncover a clue about something terrible, something evil, 141 00:09:28,756 --> 00:09:31,676 Speaker 4: a crime for which there has been no justice, and 142 00:09:31,716 --> 00:09:35,276 Speaker 4: they have nothing to go on. They don't have a victim, 143 00:09:35,676 --> 00:09:53,236 Speaker 4: don't have a body, don't even have a name. I'm 144 00:09:53,316 --> 00:09:57,676 Speaker 4: Jake Halper and this is Deep Cover Season four, The 145 00:09:57,756 --> 00:10:25,116 Speaker 4: Nameless Man, Episode one. The rumor, so to recap, Scott 146 00:10:25,116 --> 00:10:28,196 Speaker 4: and Terry's investigation did not start off as a quest 147 00:10:28,196 --> 00:10:32,996 Speaker 4: to solve a cold case now or find a murder victim. Originally, 148 00:10:33,356 --> 00:10:36,156 Speaker 4: back in two thousand and four, they were asked to 149 00:10:36,196 --> 00:10:39,876 Speaker 4: do a threat assessment on tom Gybison. That's why they 150 00:10:39,916 --> 00:10:44,276 Speaker 4: interviewed the ex girlfriend. At the time, Tom Gobison was 151 00:10:44,276 --> 00:10:47,236 Speaker 4: thirty three years old. He was in federal prison on 152 00:10:47,356 --> 00:10:50,996 Speaker 4: gun charges, but he was about to be released, and 153 00:10:51,036 --> 00:10:55,076 Speaker 4: the Feds had some intel that Tom might be seeking retribution, 154 00:10:55,796 --> 00:10:59,076 Speaker 4: planning to harm the cop who'd put him behind bars. 155 00:10:59,676 --> 00:11:02,636 Speaker 4: This is why the FEDS were called in, and initially 156 00:11:02,876 --> 00:11:06,436 Speaker 4: this was Scott and Terry's top priority to determine if 157 00:11:06,436 --> 00:11:09,556 Speaker 4: this threat was real. But they came up short and 158 00:11:09,596 --> 00:11:12,716 Speaker 4: at some point stopped looking into Tom for the threat assessment. 159 00:11:13,596 --> 00:11:17,716 Speaker 4: But they still have this rumor, this side story that 160 00:11:17,916 --> 00:11:21,596 Speaker 4: some fifteen years prior, back in the nineteen eighties, when 161 00:11:21,636 --> 00:11:24,196 Speaker 4: Tom was still in high school, that he may have 162 00:11:24,316 --> 00:11:29,316 Speaker 4: killed a black man in Philadelphia. Who this man might be, 163 00:11:29,996 --> 00:11:34,476 Speaker 4: They had no idea, but they kept poking around. They 164 00:11:34,516 --> 00:11:37,436 Speaker 4: wanted to see what they could learn about Tom Guybison 165 00:11:37,916 --> 00:11:42,516 Speaker 4: and if he had any connections to white supremacist gangs. 166 00:11:44,076 --> 00:11:48,196 Speaker 4: And this is where Terry Mortimer, Scott's partner, really came 167 00:11:48,236 --> 00:11:48,796 Speaker 4: into play. 168 00:11:49,676 --> 00:11:52,276 Speaker 3: And this is thing about gangs is there are gangs 169 00:11:52,316 --> 00:11:55,076 Speaker 3: and there's like, you know, not real gangs that people 170 00:11:55,076 --> 00:11:56,596 Speaker 3: say they're part of a gang, but they aren't. Kind 171 00:11:56,636 --> 00:11:56,956 Speaker 3: of thing. 172 00:11:57,676 --> 00:12:01,076 Speaker 4: Terry was a special agent with the ATF, the Bureau 173 00:12:01,156 --> 00:12:06,276 Speaker 4: of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. He worked in intelligence 174 00:12:06,956 --> 00:12:12,356 Speaker 4: and he focused heavily on guns and gangs. So Terry 175 00:12:12,356 --> 00:12:14,836 Speaker 4: wanted to know what was Tom's deal. 176 00:12:16,116 --> 00:12:19,516 Speaker 3: I knew he of course was imprisoned obviously for gun charges. 177 00:12:19,636 --> 00:12:24,276 Speaker 3: You know, spent a good stint in prison federally. He 178 00:12:24,316 --> 00:12:26,036 Speaker 3: had the I guess prior contact with the law. 179 00:12:26,716 --> 00:12:29,796 Speaker 4: Terry learned that Tom was first arrested at the age 180 00:12:29,796 --> 00:12:34,116 Speaker 4: of fourteen on a deadly weapons charge. A few years later, 181 00:12:34,276 --> 00:12:37,916 Speaker 4: when he was nineteen, he was convicted of reckless endangerment 182 00:12:38,396 --> 00:12:40,956 Speaker 4: after he shot a gun at a moving car full 183 00:12:40,996 --> 00:12:46,436 Speaker 4: of people. At the time, a local newspaper in Wilmington, 184 00:12:46,476 --> 00:12:50,236 Speaker 4: Delaware ran an article on Tom. It described him as 185 00:12:50,276 --> 00:12:54,436 Speaker 4: a hulking weightlifter with a number of tattoos, including a 186 00:12:54,476 --> 00:12:57,436 Speaker 4: clenched fist on the top of his scalp and the 187 00:12:57,476 --> 00:13:00,836 Speaker 4: words born in the USA on the back of his neck. 188 00:13:01,716 --> 00:13:04,636 Speaker 4: In the article, Guy Bison says at one time he 189 00:13:04,796 --> 00:13:08,996 Speaker 4: was a blue collar skinhead. Tom defined this as quote 190 00:13:09,476 --> 00:13:14,916 Speaker 4: buying American, not doing drugs, and not drinking. To be clear, 191 00:13:15,236 --> 00:13:18,596 Speaker 4: there are different types of skinheads. Not all are racists, 192 00:13:19,116 --> 00:13:22,396 Speaker 4: But in the late eighties and early nineties, skinheads were 193 00:13:22,436 --> 00:13:25,476 Speaker 4: emerging as the face of violent right wing nationalism in 194 00:13:25,516 --> 00:13:29,476 Speaker 4: the US. Their notoriety seemed to really pique at that time. 195 00:13:30,076 --> 00:13:32,916 Speaker 4: One headline from eighty nine and the New York Times read, 196 00:13:33,476 --> 00:13:40,596 Speaker 4: violent racism attracts new breed skinheads. So the possibility that 197 00:13:40,676 --> 00:13:44,636 Speaker 4: a racist skinhead might have orchestrated murder it was plausible, 198 00:13:45,356 --> 00:13:48,556 Speaker 4: but that alone wasn't a whole lot to go on. 199 00:13:53,236 --> 00:13:56,316 Speaker 4: Scott and Terry decided to focus on what Patricia, the 200 00:13:56,356 --> 00:13:59,596 Speaker 4: ex girlfriend, had told them. They honed in on two 201 00:13:59,676 --> 00:14:05,476 Speaker 4: clues in particular. The first clue involved a tattoo. Patricia 202 00:14:05,556 --> 00:14:08,836 Speaker 4: mentioned that Tom had a tattoo of a spiderweb on 203 00:14:08,876 --> 00:14:12,196 Speaker 4: his own with a tear drop in it, and that 204 00:14:12,236 --> 00:14:16,036 Speaker 4: he liked to brag that he'd gotten it, essentially as 205 00:14:16,116 --> 00:14:20,196 Speaker 4: a badge of honor for killing a black man in Philadelphia. 206 00:14:20,756 --> 00:14:24,116 Speaker 3: I know enough about gang members is sometimes things aren't 207 00:14:24,116 --> 00:14:26,556 Speaker 3: what they say they are, that they though I get 208 00:14:26,596 --> 00:14:29,076 Speaker 3: a tattoo and purported to be something that really isn't true, 209 00:14:29,196 --> 00:14:31,156 Speaker 3: or just kind of build their rap a little bit. 210 00:14:31,876 --> 00:14:34,996 Speaker 4: Terry was skeptical that Tom had killed someone just to 211 00:14:35,076 --> 00:14:39,636 Speaker 4: join this skinhead gang. Maybe tom was just posing, building 212 00:14:39,716 --> 00:14:43,276 Speaker 4: up his rap as a really violent dude. I mean, honestly, 213 00:14:43,876 --> 00:14:45,956 Speaker 4: maybe this whole thing was bullshit, right. 214 00:14:46,636 --> 00:14:50,076 Speaker 3: I couldn't really establish, you know, intelligence wise, if Tommy 215 00:14:50,116 --> 00:14:52,116 Speaker 3: was part of a skinhead gang. I didn't think he was. 216 00:14:52,196 --> 00:14:54,996 Speaker 3: I think he was kind of more self described skinhead. 217 00:14:55,676 --> 00:14:59,876 Speaker 4: And this raised the question, would a self described skinhead 218 00:15:00,116 --> 00:15:03,636 Speaker 4: acting on his own, really murder someone for what? So 219 00:15:03,676 --> 00:15:06,196 Speaker 4: he could give himself a tattoo? And all of this 220 00:15:06,356 --> 00:15:11,436 Speaker 4: while he was still in high school seemed like stretch. Okay, 221 00:15:11,596 --> 00:15:14,516 Speaker 4: here's the second clue, and it was a promising one. 222 00:15:15,316 --> 00:15:19,196 Speaker 4: According to the ex girlfriend, Patricia, tom had bragged about 223 00:15:19,276 --> 00:15:24,556 Speaker 4: having an accomplice, a guy named Craig Peterson. Allegedly they 224 00:15:24,676 --> 00:15:28,316 Speaker 4: orchestrated this murder together and both of them got those 225 00:15:28,396 --> 00:15:34,076 Speaker 4: same spider web tattoos. Now, if this was true, and 226 00:15:34,196 --> 00:15:37,156 Speaker 4: if they could find Craig and if he would talk, 227 00:15:37,716 --> 00:15:41,476 Speaker 4: well that'd be huge. But that was a lot of ifs. 228 00:15:42,236 --> 00:15:46,076 Speaker 4: So they started combing through public records asking around about 229 00:15:46,116 --> 00:15:50,556 Speaker 4: this Craig guy, the supposed accomplice, and here's what they found. 230 00:15:51,156 --> 00:15:53,876 Speaker 4: Craig was an old buddy from Tom's high school days. 231 00:15:54,436 --> 00:15:59,996 Speaker 4: He also identified specifically as a blue collar skinhead. Craig 232 00:16:00,036 --> 00:16:02,836 Speaker 4: had grown up in Delaware, but as far as anyone 233 00:16:02,836 --> 00:16:06,356 Speaker 4: could tell, he wasn't living there anymore. Seemed like he 234 00:16:06,716 --> 00:16:11,236 Speaker 4: kind of disappeared. And then they got a lead. 235 00:16:11,956 --> 00:16:14,276 Speaker 3: We found out he's in He's in Vermont, like a 236 00:16:14,556 --> 00:16:18,996 Speaker 3: remote part of Vermont. And I remember, I said, this 237 00:16:19,076 --> 00:16:23,356 Speaker 3: dude's hiding. Man, he's hiding. I said, that cat from Wilmington, 238 00:16:23,356 --> 00:16:25,756 Speaker 3: Delaware living in Vermont. Man, I said, dude, it gets 239 00:16:25,756 --> 00:16:28,076 Speaker 3: cold up there. Man, I mean, that's a cold place. Bro. 240 00:16:29,676 --> 00:16:32,596 Speaker 4: So they put on their winter coats and headed north. 241 00:16:36,156 --> 00:16:39,236 Speaker 4: It was now December of two thousand and four. It 242 00:16:39,276 --> 00:16:41,756 Speaker 4: had been about a month since they first heard the rumor, 243 00:16:42,396 --> 00:16:45,836 Speaker 4: and now here they were in the car, driving into 244 00:16:45,876 --> 00:16:49,556 Speaker 4: the chill of a Vermont winter. Temperature was hovering around 245 00:16:49,596 --> 00:16:53,196 Speaker 4: freezing that night, and as they sped along through the 246 00:16:53,196 --> 00:16:57,916 Speaker 4: green mountains, past the darkened forests of evergreens, they had 247 00:16:57,996 --> 00:17:02,356 Speaker 4: no idea what to expect, Like, what are you hoping 248 00:17:02,396 --> 00:17:02,996 Speaker 4: to find out? 249 00:17:03,516 --> 00:17:07,916 Speaker 3: Hey? At this point, we're like, man, whatever he's got, 250 00:17:08,196 --> 00:17:10,516 Speaker 3: he's got to give us something. Maybe because we're again 251 00:17:10,596 --> 00:17:13,556 Speaker 3: we're spinning our wheels. It felt like, man, if this 252 00:17:13,596 --> 00:17:16,436 Speaker 3: has come through, we're I think, honestly, I think we're done. 253 00:17:17,196 --> 00:17:20,676 Speaker 4: Terry recalls on that drive up to Vermont, they talked 254 00:17:20,716 --> 00:17:23,876 Speaker 4: a lot about why they couldn't or shouldn't give up 255 00:17:23,916 --> 00:17:24,476 Speaker 4: on the case. 256 00:17:25,236 --> 00:17:28,356 Speaker 3: So we had great discussions, and that's when I really 257 00:17:28,396 --> 00:17:30,356 Speaker 3: we both realized, Wow, wait a minute, this is not 258 00:17:30,396 --> 00:17:32,396 Speaker 3: an accident that he and I are team together. This 259 00:17:32,516 --> 00:17:35,756 Speaker 3: is like, literally, we didn't do this, We couldn't planned. 260 00:17:35,516 --> 00:17:39,636 Speaker 4: This, and there was a reason for this feeling. Turns 261 00:17:39,636 --> 00:17:42,996 Speaker 4: out there was a strange symmetry to their lives that 262 00:17:43,156 --> 00:17:47,596 Speaker 4: dated back before they ever met. So we're gonna leave 263 00:17:47,716 --> 00:17:50,516 Speaker 4: Scott and Terry in the car heading up to Vermont 264 00:17:51,276 --> 00:17:59,716 Speaker 4: and turn back the clock. For Scott, it all started 265 00:17:59,716 --> 00:18:02,756 Speaker 4: when he graduated high school. He wanted to be a cop, 266 00:18:03,196 --> 00:18:06,516 Speaker 4: but by his own estimation at the time, he was 267 00:18:06,556 --> 00:18:11,116 Speaker 4: too small, too skinny, he wages ninety three pounds, so 268 00:18:11,436 --> 00:18:15,596 Speaker 4: instead he opted to become a priest. He was just 269 00:18:15,676 --> 00:18:18,556 Speaker 4: seventeen years old when he decided to join the seminary, 270 00:18:19,036 --> 00:18:22,236 Speaker 4: but right away when he put on that priest's color, 271 00:18:22,796 --> 00:18:26,556 Speaker 4: it was transformative, both for him and also for the 272 00:18:26,556 --> 00:18:28,716 Speaker 4: way that other people looked at him. 273 00:18:29,076 --> 00:18:31,796 Speaker 5: I would be sitting in a pew, maybe praying in 274 00:18:31,876 --> 00:18:35,516 Speaker 5: a church. Somebody would come by and start confessing, and 275 00:18:35,996 --> 00:18:38,116 Speaker 5: people just start pouring their souls out to me. 276 00:18:39,516 --> 00:18:42,756 Speaker 4: In these moments, Scott was learning how to listen, how 277 00:18:42,756 --> 00:18:46,436 Speaker 4: to suspend judgment, how to be patient as people grappled 278 00:18:46,436 --> 00:18:50,876 Speaker 4: with some burdensome secret, inching their way towards the precipice 279 00:18:50,876 --> 00:18:54,756 Speaker 4: of truth. He spent five years training to become a priest, 280 00:18:55,556 --> 00:18:59,556 Speaker 4: but dreams are stubborn things, and his didn't go away. 281 00:19:00,636 --> 00:19:03,516 Speaker 4: He left the Seminary to become a cop and then 282 00:19:03,556 --> 00:19:04,516 Speaker 4: an FBI agent. 283 00:19:05,476 --> 00:19:08,116 Speaker 5: It is harder to leave than it is to go in. 284 00:19:08,156 --> 00:19:11,156 Speaker 5: And that's ultimately because I think, now you have ventured 285 00:19:11,236 --> 00:19:14,876 Speaker 5: this relationship with God, and now you're afraid of pissing 286 00:19:14,916 --> 00:19:15,316 Speaker 5: him off. 287 00:19:16,076 --> 00:19:19,796 Speaker 4: For Scott, this shifting careers seemed like a natural progression 288 00:19:20,956 --> 00:19:24,956 Speaker 4: for him. The seminary prepared him for this work, prepared 289 00:19:25,036 --> 00:19:28,076 Speaker 4: him to listen and see his way through a messy 290 00:19:28,196 --> 00:19:32,276 Speaker 4: world fraught with moral dilemmas. But when he'd tell people 291 00:19:32,476 --> 00:19:35,836 Speaker 4: about his past, how he'd almost become a priest. 292 00:19:35,916 --> 00:19:39,996 Speaker 5: They're like, oh, my gosh, I can never imagine the 293 00:19:40,036 --> 00:19:42,636 Speaker 5: two are totally opposed to each other. And I never 294 00:19:42,756 --> 00:19:43,516 Speaker 5: understood that. 295 00:19:44,396 --> 00:19:49,316 Speaker 4: But there was at least one person who got it completely. Terry. 296 00:19:50,156 --> 00:19:53,636 Speaker 3: I went to college at a very small Bible College 297 00:19:54,276 --> 00:19:55,876 Speaker 3: and was preparing for ministry. 298 00:19:56,716 --> 00:19:59,796 Speaker 4: From a young age. Terry felt destined for the ministry, 299 00:20:00,476 --> 00:20:03,196 Speaker 4: but later on, when he was in Bible College, he 300 00:20:03,236 --> 00:20:07,436 Speaker 4: had second thoughts. As graduation approached, a friend asked him, 301 00:20:07,996 --> 00:20:11,716 Speaker 4: you ever consider becoming a cop? The short answer was no, 302 00:20:12,316 --> 00:20:15,516 Speaker 4: But on a whim, Terry applied and met. 303 00:20:15,316 --> 00:20:16,076 Speaker 1: With a recruiter. 304 00:20:16,596 --> 00:20:19,436 Speaker 3: And this guy was a He was a hardcore dude. 305 00:20:19,436 --> 00:20:22,076 Speaker 3: I mean he he looked at me. I was back then, 306 00:20:22,116 --> 00:20:24,876 Speaker 3: I was skinny. He looked at me and said, you're 307 00:20:24,876 --> 00:20:27,476 Speaker 3: from where and you want to do what? Like you're 308 00:20:27,476 --> 00:20:30,156 Speaker 3: from Bible College. Man, you have any idea what you're 309 00:20:30,196 --> 00:20:32,756 Speaker 3: applying for, what you're trying to do. I said, no, sir, 310 00:20:32,836 --> 00:20:34,196 Speaker 3: I have no idea. 311 00:20:34,796 --> 00:20:37,916 Speaker 4: Terry was undeterred. He became a cop and then an 312 00:20:37,916 --> 00:20:42,316 Speaker 4: agent with the ATF. And this was not a consolation 313 00:20:42,516 --> 00:20:46,076 Speaker 4: job for Terry. He's very clear about this. He feels 314 00:20:46,116 --> 00:20:49,156 Speaker 4: that God had a purpose for him in law enforcement. 315 00:20:50,076 --> 00:20:52,756 Speaker 4: And that's the thing you got to understand. About both 316 00:20:52,876 --> 00:20:55,756 Speaker 4: Terry and Scott. These are not men who look at 317 00:20:55,796 --> 00:20:59,356 Speaker 4: the world and see coincidences. What they see is much 318 00:20:59,396 --> 00:21:04,676 Speaker 4: closer to fate or God's will. And when they became partners, 319 00:21:05,236 --> 00:21:07,916 Speaker 4: it all seemed meant to be. Here were two guys 320 00:21:07,956 --> 00:21:11,436 Speaker 4: who early on too skinny and earnest to be cops, 321 00:21:11,876 --> 00:21:14,756 Speaker 4: guys who intended to become men of God. Different in 322 00:21:14,796 --> 00:21:17,876 Speaker 4: their own ways. Terry grew up in a gritty river 323 00:21:17,956 --> 00:21:21,676 Speaker 4: town in Pennsylvania, and he kind of feels like a dude. 324 00:21:21,796 --> 00:21:24,596 Speaker 4: You'd play around a mini golf with, grab a burger, 325 00:21:24,796 --> 00:21:28,476 Speaker 4: have a laugh, and then realize only belatedly, that you 326 00:21:28,596 --> 00:21:32,836 Speaker 4: told him more than you intended to. Scott, well, he's 327 00:21:32,876 --> 00:21:36,556 Speaker 4: more formal. He's from Connecticut. Are really Yankee, a man 328 00:21:36,596 --> 00:21:40,876 Speaker 4: who chooses his words carefully, a patient priest who knows 329 00:21:40,916 --> 00:21:44,316 Speaker 4: how to nurse a long pregnant pause. The two of 330 00:21:44,316 --> 00:21:48,956 Speaker 4: them worked well together, complimented one another, the Pennsylvania pastor 331 00:21:49,436 --> 00:21:56,396 Speaker 4: and the New England priest, and I've been calling them partners, 332 00:21:56,436 --> 00:22:00,316 Speaker 4: but they only ever worked together on this one investigation. 333 00:22:01,076 --> 00:22:05,276 Speaker 4: It was an unusual collaboration between the FBI and the ATF, 334 00:22:05,756 --> 00:22:08,396 Speaker 4: and they didn't choose one another. They were kind of 335 00:22:08,436 --> 00:22:12,796 Speaker 4: paired ran though neither of them would say it was random. 336 00:22:12,756 --> 00:22:14,516 Speaker 3: You know, as we started realize we wait a minute, 337 00:22:14,516 --> 00:22:18,036 Speaker 3: we're we're on a mission from God. 338 00:22:18,076 --> 00:22:22,556 Speaker 4: But yep, just like the Blues Brothers. 339 00:22:23,156 --> 00:22:24,996 Speaker 3: We didn't really say that, I'm just making it up, 340 00:22:24,996 --> 00:22:27,756 Speaker 3: but that was the feeling was like, hey, no, but 341 00:22:27,836 --> 00:22:30,596 Speaker 3: it was like, no joke, Like this is a real deal. 342 00:22:30,676 --> 00:22:33,756 Speaker 3: Like it's almost like we're walking through almost like a dream, 343 00:22:33,796 --> 00:22:34,996 Speaker 3: like what is going on here? 344 00:22:36,516 --> 00:22:39,836 Speaker 4: So yeah, even though all they had was a rumor 345 00:22:40,156 --> 00:22:43,876 Speaker 4: of a long forgotten crime that might not have even happened, 346 00:22:44,836 --> 00:22:48,676 Speaker 4: these two almost ministers, the God Squad, as it were, 347 00:22:49,356 --> 00:22:52,676 Speaker 4: still felt certain that they were here in this car 348 00:22:52,916 --> 00:22:56,836 Speaker 4: heading north into Vermont for a reason, and they were 349 00:22:56,876 --> 00:23:01,836 Speaker 4: convinced that something important was waiting for them. That's when 350 00:23:01,876 --> 00:23:29,276 Speaker 4: we get back. Both Scott and Terry had this hunch 351 00:23:29,596 --> 00:23:33,076 Speaker 4: that there was a reason Craig, the alleged accomplice, was 352 00:23:33,196 --> 00:23:37,036 Speaker 4: up in Vermont, up in the mountains, that he was hiding. 353 00:23:37,916 --> 00:23:42,356 Speaker 4: But if so, who is he hiding from and why? 354 00:23:43,396 --> 00:23:45,796 Speaker 4: In any case, they knew they had to be careful. 355 00:23:46,356 --> 00:23:49,596 Speaker 4: They'd learned from police reports that in the past Craig 356 00:23:49,636 --> 00:23:52,916 Speaker 4: had helped Tom clean and store a whole arsenal of weapons. 357 00:23:53,636 --> 00:23:56,396 Speaker 4: Why did he do this Well, Tom had a felony 358 00:23:56,396 --> 00:23:58,836 Speaker 4: on his record, which meant he wasn't supposed to have 359 00:23:58,876 --> 00:24:02,676 Speaker 4: any guns, so his buddy Craig helped him out. This 360 00:24:02,836 --> 00:24:06,876 Speaker 4: suggested two things to the agents. One Craig was loyal. 361 00:24:07,356 --> 00:24:09,676 Speaker 4: He ended up going to prison for storwing those weapons, 362 00:24:10,516 --> 00:24:14,796 Speaker 4: And two, Craig was probably handy with a gun. The 363 00:24:14,876 --> 00:24:18,316 Speaker 4: God Squad was still hatching their plan as they rolled 364 00:24:18,316 --> 00:24:18,876 Speaker 4: into town. 365 00:24:23,076 --> 00:24:25,556 Speaker 1: It was late. 366 00:24:26,396 --> 00:24:29,076 Speaker 5: I feel like we were closing in on midnight, and 367 00:24:29,156 --> 00:24:31,956 Speaker 5: we didn't want to put it off. We were just 368 00:24:31,996 --> 00:24:33,836 Speaker 5: so full of energy. 369 00:24:35,396 --> 00:24:38,556 Speaker 4: It was late for a door knock, very late, but 370 00:24:38,636 --> 00:24:43,316 Speaker 4: their excitement eclips their caution, so instead of waiting until morning, 371 00:24:43,916 --> 00:24:47,076 Speaker 4: they drove right to his house. Their plan was to 372 00:24:47,116 --> 00:24:50,796 Speaker 4: say hello, introduce themselves, and arrange to have a formal 373 00:24:50,876 --> 00:24:54,076 Speaker 4: sit down the following day. 374 00:24:54,116 --> 00:24:58,396 Speaker 3: And when we finally found where he lives, he lives 375 00:24:58,396 --> 00:25:00,356 Speaker 3: literally on top of like if it's on a mountain, 376 00:25:00,356 --> 00:25:02,436 Speaker 3: it's a very very tall hill. It's very tall and 377 00:25:02,516 --> 00:25:02,996 Speaker 3: very steep. 378 00:25:03,516 --> 00:25:09,636 Speaker 5: I remember being very very dark. I don't think I 379 00:25:09,636 --> 00:25:12,716 Speaker 5: could see my hand in front of me. And as 380 00:25:12,756 --> 00:25:16,156 Speaker 5: soon as we got out of our cars, I think 381 00:25:16,516 --> 00:25:19,676 Speaker 5: we got out a few feet and then floodlights I 382 00:25:19,756 --> 00:25:23,636 Speaker 5: just remember, floodlights like we were in a stadium, just 383 00:25:23,876 --> 00:25:25,196 Speaker 5: shined upon us. 384 00:25:26,596 --> 00:25:29,716 Speaker 3: I mean it was like bright as day. He had 385 00:25:29,716 --> 00:25:33,116 Speaker 3: hooked up these spotlights and trees illuminating the whole area, 386 00:25:33,556 --> 00:25:35,596 Speaker 3: and we could see his house dimly up the top 387 00:25:35,636 --> 00:25:37,436 Speaker 3: of the hill. I think I may have made a 388 00:25:37,436 --> 00:25:40,316 Speaker 3: comment to Scott. I said, man, if he had any 389 00:25:40,316 --> 00:25:42,076 Speaker 3: ill intent, he we'd be dead men right now. 390 00:25:42,876 --> 00:25:44,716 Speaker 1: That told me a lot that. 391 00:25:45,676 --> 00:25:50,956 Speaker 5: Wow, you know what is inside this person that he 392 00:25:51,036 --> 00:25:55,276 Speaker 5: has this going on where he wants to be made 393 00:25:55,316 --> 00:25:57,276 Speaker 5: well aware of anybody arriving. 394 00:25:58,716 --> 00:26:01,956 Speaker 3: I'm thinking, man, he does not want to He doesn't 395 00:26:01,956 --> 00:26:08,276 Speaker 3: want to be found. 396 00:26:08,316 --> 00:26:11,996 Speaker 4: Scott and Tears start trudging up the icy, snow covered hill. 397 00:26:12,676 --> 00:26:16,476 Speaker 4: They can hear dogs barking from within the house. Eventually 398 00:26:16,636 --> 00:26:20,156 Speaker 4: they get up to the front porch and Craig walks out. 399 00:26:20,436 --> 00:26:24,236 Speaker 4: He's medium height and stocky with a closely cropped haircut. 400 00:26:25,356 --> 00:26:26,356 Speaker 4: Scott calls out to. 401 00:26:26,356 --> 00:26:29,476 Speaker 5: Him, Craig Peterson, you don't know us, but we're here. 402 00:26:29,956 --> 00:26:32,516 Speaker 5: I'm going to talk to you Federal agents. Can we 403 00:26:32,676 --> 00:26:36,356 Speaker 5: approach you can. We come up to your house, and 404 00:26:37,796 --> 00:26:45,476 Speaker 5: within ten seconds just a very friendly, inviting demeanor, come 405 00:26:45,476 --> 00:26:48,316 Speaker 5: on up and come into my house. This is a 406 00:26:48,356 --> 00:26:51,236 Speaker 5: sigh of relief of that, but definitely a sigh of release. 407 00:26:51,276 --> 00:26:55,716 Speaker 5: First and foremost, we've achieved our first goal is finding him, 408 00:26:56,436 --> 00:27:00,836 Speaker 5: achieved our second goal of being able to be face 409 00:27:00,876 --> 00:27:04,516 Speaker 5: to face with him. Our third goal was to get 410 00:27:04,596 --> 00:27:08,436 Speaker 5: him to come and speak with us at a different location. 411 00:27:08,476 --> 00:27:10,436 Speaker 5: We weren't going to talk to him at his house. 412 00:27:11,116 --> 00:27:14,556 Speaker 4: Craig invites them inside, he introduces them to his fiance 413 00:27:15,316 --> 00:27:19,236 Speaker 4: It's all very normal and Craig he seems unfazed. 414 00:27:19,836 --> 00:27:24,156 Speaker 3: He was very relaxed, very gracious. I mean, just almost 415 00:27:24,196 --> 00:27:25,876 Speaker 3: opposite of what I was expecting. 416 00:27:26,756 --> 00:27:29,356 Speaker 4: Scott and Terry explain that they just have a few 417 00:27:29,436 --> 00:27:32,236 Speaker 4: questions for him about an old matter from the past. 418 00:27:32,876 --> 00:27:36,036 Speaker 4: They keep it deliberately vague, and they ask if he'd 419 00:27:36,036 --> 00:27:38,476 Speaker 4: be willing to meet with them the following day down 420 00:27:38,516 --> 00:27:41,356 Speaker 4: at the barracks where the Vermont State Police are stationed. 421 00:27:41,956 --> 00:27:45,596 Speaker 4: Craig's like, sure, I'll meet you tomorrow after I'm done 422 00:27:45,636 --> 00:27:49,996 Speaker 4: with work. All the while, Terry is studying both Craig 423 00:27:50,236 --> 00:27:53,516 Speaker 4: and his fiancee trying to get a read on them. 424 00:27:53,796 --> 00:27:57,356 Speaker 3: His fiance was way more concerned than he was, Like 425 00:27:57,396 --> 00:28:00,116 Speaker 3: she was like, what's going on, Like what's this about. 426 00:28:00,236 --> 00:28:02,796 Speaker 3: He's not stressed at all, Like there's no stress with 427 00:28:02,836 --> 00:28:05,516 Speaker 3: this dat Like there's nothing. I'm like, this is unbelievable. 428 00:28:06,996 --> 00:28:09,236 Speaker 4: The next day, Scott and Terry are down at the 429 00:28:09,276 --> 00:28:12,716 Speaker 4: barracks of the Vermont State Police and they're just hoping 430 00:28:12,796 --> 00:28:14,236 Speaker 4: Craig actually shows up. 431 00:28:14,956 --> 00:28:17,516 Speaker 3: He ain't gonna show up, Like, what's the odds he's 432 00:28:17,556 --> 00:28:19,636 Speaker 3: gonna show up? Like, and I was like fifty to fifty. 433 00:28:19,796 --> 00:28:24,556 Speaker 4: Yeah, But he shows up affect. He's it early, and 434 00:28:24,876 --> 00:28:27,556 Speaker 4: after a little chit chat, they all sit down and 435 00:28:27,596 --> 00:28:32,036 Speaker 4: get to business. Scott explains that they're here about Tom Guybison. 436 00:28:33,756 --> 00:28:33,996 Speaker 1: Craig. 437 00:28:34,036 --> 00:28:40,636 Speaker 5: We've made a long trip and we've been investigating Tom 438 00:28:40,716 --> 00:28:45,436 Speaker 5: for a possible threat, and during the course of that investigation, 439 00:28:46,836 --> 00:28:49,436 Speaker 5: we've learned that a story was told. 440 00:28:50,676 --> 00:28:54,196 Speaker 4: This is the story they'd heard from Patricia, Tom's ex girlfriend, 441 00:28:54,756 --> 00:28:58,516 Speaker 4: that some fifteen years prior, Craig and Tom had been skinheads, 442 00:28:59,116 --> 00:29:02,196 Speaker 4: that they'd killed a black man in Philadelphia and then 443 00:29:02,436 --> 00:29:07,236 Speaker 4: gotten tattoos to commemorate what they'd done. 444 00:29:06,196 --> 00:29:16,236 Speaker 5: And Craig just looked at us, shocked, almost a sense 445 00:29:16,316 --> 00:29:27,116 Speaker 5: of I can't believe that this is coming back. And 446 00:29:27,156 --> 00:29:33,196 Speaker 5: then he sat back in his chair and said, I 447 00:29:33,196 --> 00:29:34,316 Speaker 5: don't know what you're talking about. 448 00:29:37,156 --> 00:29:40,796 Speaker 4: Scott keeps pressing gently, very much playing the role of 449 00:29:40,836 --> 00:29:44,556 Speaker 4: the New England priest, that he almost was concealing any 450 00:29:44,596 --> 00:29:47,916 Speaker 4: signs of judgment, just patiently probing. 451 00:29:48,956 --> 00:29:53,396 Speaker 5: Well, at the very least, would you admit you have 452 00:29:53,476 --> 00:29:57,316 Speaker 5: the tattoo? Why would they lie about the story? 453 00:29:57,636 --> 00:29:58,156 Speaker 1: Would they? 454 00:29:58,356 --> 00:30:04,116 Speaker 5: Would they also lie about the tattoo? So would you 455 00:30:04,196 --> 00:30:10,796 Speaker 5: raise your would you raise your sleeve? And so begrudgingly 456 00:30:10,876 --> 00:30:13,916 Speaker 5: he did. He showed us his tattoo. 457 00:30:14,836 --> 00:30:18,076 Speaker 4: A gothic looking spider web in black ink, with the 458 00:30:18,156 --> 00:30:22,476 Speaker 4: elbow directly at the center, similar to what Patricia had described. 459 00:30:23,396 --> 00:30:26,516 Speaker 4: Craig admitted that he and Tom both had tattoos like this, 460 00:30:27,116 --> 00:30:29,876 Speaker 4: that they'd gotten them together back in high school, and 461 00:30:29,916 --> 00:30:33,236 Speaker 4: Greg admitted that back in his youth, yeah, he'd been 462 00:30:33,276 --> 00:30:35,916 Speaker 4: his skinhead, but it had just been a phase. 463 00:30:38,076 --> 00:30:39,556 Speaker 3: He said, Man, that was a long time ago. I 464 00:30:39,596 --> 00:30:42,596 Speaker 3: was a young knucklehead, and I don't believe that stuff anymore, 465 00:30:43,196 --> 00:30:45,636 Speaker 3: you know, man, I'm up here, I'm working hard man. Guys, 466 00:30:45,636 --> 00:30:49,676 Speaker 3: I work every day, hourly wage. I work as an electrician. 467 00:30:49,716 --> 00:30:52,516 Speaker 3: I've got a new life. I don't want any part 468 00:30:52,516 --> 00:30:54,756 Speaker 3: of this. He just denied the whole thing. But I 469 00:30:54,756 --> 00:30:58,676 Speaker 3: can't overemphasize. I'm watching this cat. I'm like, he's not 470 00:30:58,756 --> 00:30:59,596 Speaker 3: stressed at all. 471 00:31:00,196 --> 00:31:03,516 Speaker 4: At this point. Despite the fact that Craig had this tattoo, 472 00:31:03,836 --> 00:31:08,036 Speaker 4: which offered some corroboration, Scott and Terry basically have to 473 00:31:08,116 --> 00:31:11,596 Speaker 4: let him go. They say, hey, let's keep in touch. 474 00:31:12,116 --> 00:31:14,356 Speaker 4: If you ever come down to Delaware, please let us know. 475 00:31:14,596 --> 00:31:15,636 Speaker 4: We'd like to keep talking. 476 00:31:16,276 --> 00:31:19,236 Speaker 3: He said, yeah, if I come down there, like Jake, 477 00:31:19,396 --> 00:31:21,076 Speaker 3: no one's ever gonna say yeah, yeah, yeah, I look 478 00:31:21,076 --> 00:31:22,876 Speaker 3: your eyes up. If I'm ever down Delaware, sure, like 479 00:31:22,876 --> 00:31:25,796 Speaker 3: we're gonna have a dinner together. I'm thinking nobody does that. 480 00:31:26,276 --> 00:31:28,396 Speaker 3: Nobody wants to talk to their least favorite FBI and 481 00:31:28,476 --> 00:31:31,556 Speaker 3: ATF agent in the world about a homicide they didn't commit. 482 00:31:32,316 --> 00:31:35,636 Speaker 4: In Terry's mind, it was weird how friendly he was, 483 00:31:36,476 --> 00:31:40,156 Speaker 4: and it also seemed difficult to imagine that this guy 484 00:31:40,276 --> 00:31:44,116 Speaker 4: right here, this laid back electrician living in Vermont, could 485 00:31:44,196 --> 00:31:46,676 Speaker 4: be capable of orchestrating a murder. 486 00:31:47,836 --> 00:31:51,236 Speaker 3: If the dude was in the car with the and 487 00:31:51,436 --> 00:31:54,676 Speaker 3: they did a homicide. Well however went down whoever pulled 488 00:31:54,716 --> 00:31:58,436 Speaker 3: the trigger. Thinking, I'm not seeing it. I mean, if 489 00:31:58,436 --> 00:32:00,516 Speaker 3: it did happen and he was in the very car, 490 00:32:01,116 --> 00:32:04,156 Speaker 3: I see nothing nonverbal in this guy. There's no stress, 491 00:32:04,436 --> 00:32:07,516 Speaker 3: there's no deception. I'm looking at his eyes, I'm looking 492 00:32:07,556 --> 00:32:09,676 Speaker 3: at his whole facial I'm looking at everything. I'm thinking, 493 00:32:10,716 --> 00:32:12,796 Speaker 3: this guy's like the he liked the best liar ever. 494 00:32:13,996 --> 00:32:16,956 Speaker 4: So they say goodbye to Craig, They thank the Vermont 495 00:32:16,996 --> 00:32:19,836 Speaker 4: State Troopers. They walk out of the barracks, get in 496 00:32:19,916 --> 00:32:24,236 Speaker 4: their car, and head home, all the while trying to 497 00:32:24,276 --> 00:32:26,116 Speaker 4: make sense of what they've just learned. 498 00:32:27,716 --> 00:32:30,516 Speaker 3: And I said, Scott, I don't think it happened, man. 499 00:32:31,516 --> 00:32:33,716 Speaker 3: He because, what do you mean. I said, there's no 500 00:32:33,796 --> 00:32:36,316 Speaker 3: way that dude, there's no way. I said, maybe Tommy 501 00:32:36,356 --> 00:32:37,916 Speaker 3: did something. I don't know, but I said he didn't 502 00:32:37,916 --> 00:32:40,716 Speaker 3: do nothing. I'm telling you that dude is way too cool. 503 00:32:40,956 --> 00:32:44,236 Speaker 3: And Scott he goes, nah, I kind of think something's there. 504 00:32:44,276 --> 00:32:50,556 Speaker 1: Man, this happened, and we're definitely not stopping. 505 00:32:51,276 --> 00:32:54,116 Speaker 3: I said, Scott, I'm not seeing it, man, I said, dude, 506 00:32:54,116 --> 00:32:55,356 Speaker 3: I said, I think We're toast bro. 507 00:32:56,796 --> 00:33:00,276 Speaker 4: After this time passes about a year and a half, 508 00:33:00,836 --> 00:33:03,996 Speaker 4: and during this stretch very little happens. In this case, 509 00:33:05,436 --> 00:33:08,596 Speaker 4: Craig keeps living his quiet life up in the Vermont Mountains. 510 00:33:09,236 --> 00:33:11,796 Speaker 4: Occasionally the God Squad gives him a call just to 511 00:33:11,956 --> 00:33:16,716 Speaker 4: check in, but Craig never tells him anything new. Meanwhile, 512 00:33:17,076 --> 00:33:21,356 Speaker 4: Tom Godbison finishes serving his time in federal prison. He's released, 513 00:33:21,716 --> 00:33:24,756 Speaker 4: goes back to living in Delaware, where he seems to 514 00:33:24,796 --> 00:33:28,796 Speaker 4: stay out of trouble. Then, one day in April of 515 00:33:28,796 --> 00:33:31,636 Speaker 4: two thousand and six, the God Squad gets a phone 516 00:33:31,676 --> 00:33:33,356 Speaker 4: call from Craig. 517 00:33:34,636 --> 00:33:38,516 Speaker 3: Craig says, Hey, basically, I'm coming down to see my mom. 518 00:33:39,036 --> 00:33:40,556 Speaker 3: You know, do you guys will still talk to me? 519 00:33:41,116 --> 00:33:45,396 Speaker 3: I'm incredulous the dude is volunteering. You know, Nothing's happened 520 00:33:45,436 --> 00:33:47,636 Speaker 3: in the year and whatever months it's been. There's no 521 00:33:47,716 --> 00:33:50,476 Speaker 3: subpoenas as though arrest, there's those search warrants. Nothing. He's 522 00:33:50,516 --> 00:33:51,596 Speaker 3: got to think he Scott free. 523 00:33:52,236 --> 00:33:54,636 Speaker 5: Are you Are you pretty surprised to get this phone call? 524 00:33:55,356 --> 00:33:55,636 Speaker 1: Yeah? 525 00:33:55,756 --> 00:33:59,316 Speaker 3: I mean again, I'm like, this is unbelievable, doesn't make 526 00:33:59,316 --> 00:34:02,996 Speaker 3: any sense to me, But I honestly, I literally felt like, 527 00:34:05,516 --> 00:34:08,036 Speaker 3: does he want friends? Does he need friends? There's some 528 00:34:08,076 --> 00:34:11,116 Speaker 3: things that are miraculous. They don't look miraculous, but they 529 00:34:11,156 --> 00:34:14,356 Speaker 3: literally are miraculous. So that doesn't happen in a real world. Man, 530 00:34:14,476 --> 00:34:15,236 Speaker 3: it doesn't happen. 531 00:34:16,596 --> 00:34:18,876 Speaker 4: Terry and Scott are determined to make the most of 532 00:34:18,916 --> 00:34:22,436 Speaker 4: this meeting, and they go for a new strategy. They've 533 00:34:22,476 --> 00:34:25,636 Speaker 4: tried the whole good cop routine and it hasn't worked, 534 00:34:25,756 --> 00:34:30,556 Speaker 4: not really, so time to apply a little pressure. They 535 00:34:30,596 --> 00:34:34,436 Speaker 4: get a subpoena requiring Craig to testify before a grand 536 00:34:34,516 --> 00:34:38,236 Speaker 4: jury about the murder that allegedly took place. This is 537 00:34:38,316 --> 00:34:41,516 Speaker 4: no joke. The subpoena will put Craig on the spot 538 00:34:41,836 --> 00:34:45,316 Speaker 4: because lying before a grand jury is a serious offense. 539 00:34:45,476 --> 00:34:48,596 Speaker 4: They can land you in prison for years. But remember 540 00:34:48,996 --> 00:34:51,796 Speaker 4: they still have pretty much nothing on Craig at this point, 541 00:34:52,116 --> 00:34:56,316 Speaker 4: so the subpoena, it's kind of a bluff. What's your 542 00:34:56,356 --> 00:34:57,676 Speaker 4: mindset going into that meeting. 543 00:34:59,356 --> 00:35:06,236 Speaker 5: Our mindset is this, we had a subpoena, We're gonna 544 00:35:06,436 --> 00:35:08,836 Speaker 5: give it to him. You always have to hand deliver it. 545 00:35:09,156 --> 00:35:10,756 Speaker 5: There was going to be no more will of the room, 546 00:35:10,796 --> 00:35:13,796 Speaker 5: no more postponements. This is now going to be the 547 00:35:13,916 --> 00:35:15,036 Speaker 5: make it or break it. 548 00:35:16,236 --> 00:35:20,276 Speaker 4: So Craig shows up at the FBI's offices in Wilmington, Delaware. 549 00:35:20,756 --> 00:35:23,876 Speaker 4: He's got no idea that there's a subpoena waiting for him. 550 00:35:24,876 --> 00:35:27,796 Speaker 4: What happens next we pieced together from talking to the 551 00:35:27,836 --> 00:35:32,836 Speaker 4: agents and reading their report from that day. Initially, it's 552 00:35:32,876 --> 00:35:36,316 Speaker 4: all smiles. Terry keeps the whole thing really upbeat. 553 00:35:36,596 --> 00:35:39,036 Speaker 3: Hey, we thank you for coming down. This is awesome. 554 00:35:40,516 --> 00:35:42,076 Speaker 3: You know, we really appreciate it. 555 00:35:42,636 --> 00:35:45,756 Speaker 4: They asked Craig again about the rumor of the murder 556 00:35:45,796 --> 00:35:49,556 Speaker 4: down in Philadelphia. They tell him, we don't think you're 557 00:35:49,596 --> 00:35:53,756 Speaker 4: telling us the truth, and this time, instead of denying 558 00:35:53,796 --> 00:35:58,356 Speaker 4: the whole thing outright, Craig concedes that maybe back at 559 00:35:58,396 --> 00:36:00,396 Speaker 4: the time, there'd been some chatter about this. 560 00:36:01,356 --> 00:36:02,956 Speaker 3: I think he said something like, yeah, we heard rumors 561 00:36:02,996 --> 00:36:06,276 Speaker 3: about that, that someone said we did a homicide. But man, 562 00:36:06,356 --> 00:36:09,596 Speaker 3: that's now, that's nothing to it. We didn't do any homice. 563 00:36:09,996 --> 00:36:13,996 Speaker 3: It's a bunch of junk. Didn't happen. Yeah, maybe maybe 564 00:36:13,996 --> 00:36:16,196 Speaker 3: Tommy said that's gonna build our rep a little bit. 565 00:36:17,116 --> 00:36:20,036 Speaker 4: In other words, a bit of bragging, but nothing more 566 00:36:20,036 --> 00:36:24,636 Speaker 4: than that. The agents push Craig tell him we believe 567 00:36:24,676 --> 00:36:29,556 Speaker 4: a homicide occurred and that you participated in it. Eventually, 568 00:36:29,676 --> 00:36:32,636 Speaker 4: when the meeting is almost over, the hand Craig the 569 00:36:32,636 --> 00:36:35,676 Speaker 4: subpoena and kind of hold their breath. 570 00:36:36,316 --> 00:36:39,556 Speaker 3: And again we're shooting blanks. We have nothing right. Well, 571 00:36:39,556 --> 00:36:42,636 Speaker 3: his whole demeanor changed when he got to subpoena. He's 572 00:36:42,716 --> 00:36:46,636 Speaker 3: like what the stress right, went from like zero to 573 00:36:46,796 --> 00:36:48,596 Speaker 3: like he's he's hitting about a ten. 574 00:36:50,956 --> 00:36:54,916 Speaker 4: That meeting ends without a breakthrough. Craig didn't admit to anything, 575 00:36:55,596 --> 00:36:59,036 Speaker 4: but a few days later he calls them back says 576 00:36:59,076 --> 00:37:02,956 Speaker 4: he wants to meet again, have another sit down. So 577 00:37:03,436 --> 00:37:07,916 Speaker 4: they reconvene, and at this meeting, right off the bat, 578 00:37:08,236 --> 00:37:08,956 Speaker 4: the mood is ten. 579 00:37:12,356 --> 00:37:19,636 Speaker 5: When he arrived, I could tell he was depleted, shaken. 580 00:37:20,916 --> 00:37:25,796 Speaker 5: His whole body had changed to a defeatist demeanor. 581 00:37:26,956 --> 00:37:31,956 Speaker 3: He was like completely complete hundred degree change. And he 582 00:37:32,076 --> 00:37:36,436 Speaker 3: literally it's hard to describe. It was literally like an 583 00:37:36,476 --> 00:37:39,956 Speaker 3: invisible hand was pushing him down in the chair. He 584 00:37:39,996 --> 00:37:43,556 Speaker 3: physically got smaller. I saw him shrink like like like 585 00:37:43,636 --> 00:37:48,996 Speaker 3: he was like getting deflated. He started sweating, beads of 586 00:37:48,996 --> 00:37:49,916 Speaker 3: sweat were popping out. 587 00:37:51,276 --> 00:37:54,396 Speaker 5: You could feel the tension, but you can also feel 588 00:37:54,436 --> 00:38:03,876 Speaker 5: like he's about to say something, and then he's He says, 589 00:38:04,836 --> 00:38:09,556 Speaker 5: I'll tell you everything. I'll tell you everything. I'll tell 590 00:38:09,596 --> 00:38:14,916 Speaker 5: you everything. And at this moment it seemed like maybe, 591 00:38:15,876 --> 00:38:19,796 Speaker 5: just maybe they've been right all along not to give 592 00:38:19,876 --> 00:38:23,996 Speaker 5: up on this, and that the truth was finally at hand. 593 00:38:28,796 --> 00:38:33,076 Speaker 5: Coming up this season on deep Cover, we have to 594 00:38:33,076 --> 00:38:37,036 Speaker 5: do our job and we have to find out who 595 00:38:37,036 --> 00:38:37,636 Speaker 5: did they kill. 596 00:38:38,556 --> 00:38:43,436 Speaker 6: Not that any murder isn't disturbing, but this particular murder 597 00:38:43,476 --> 00:38:45,676 Speaker 6: and the reason for it, the hate. 598 00:38:46,396 --> 00:38:51,396 Speaker 3: This was a hate crime. I believe Tom guy as 599 00:38:51,396 --> 00:38:54,436 Speaker 3: Soon is innocent. They had no physical evidence, they had 600 00:38:54,476 --> 00:38:56,356 Speaker 3: no gun, they had nothing. 601 00:38:57,636 --> 00:39:01,756 Speaker 6: We didn't like the speculation the family, and I thought 602 00:39:01,796 --> 00:39:05,156 Speaker 6: that this would be good if we found least what 603 00:39:05,316 --> 00:39:07,716 Speaker 6: happened to them. Can't do nothing about it, can't bring 604 00:39:07,756 --> 00:39:09,996 Speaker 6: them back, but find out the truth. 605 00:39:35,116 --> 00:39:38,956 Speaker 4: Deep Cover is produced by Amy Gaines McQuaid and Jacob Smith. 606 00:39:39,516 --> 00:39:44,476 Speaker 4: It's edited by Karen SCHAKERJI mastering by Jake Gorski. Our 607 00:39:44,516 --> 00:39:47,956 Speaker 4: show art was designed by Sean Carney. Original scoring in 608 00:39:48,036 --> 00:39:51,836 Speaker 4: our theme was composed by Luis Gara. Fact checking by 609 00:39:51,916 --> 00:39:57,956 Speaker 4: Arthur Gomberts. Our story consultant was James Foreman. Jr. Special 610 00:39:57,996 --> 00:40:02,276 Speaker 4: thanks to Jerry Williams, Sarah Nix, Greta Cone and Jake Flanagan. 611 00:40:03,276 --> 00:40:10,996 Speaker 4: I'm Jake Albert something