1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and this is Joe McCormick, and today 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: we have an episode from the vault for you. This 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: is part two of our series on Pacific Island navigation. 5 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: This episode originally aired July. Let's dive right in Welcome 6 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My Heart Radio. Hey, 7 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is 8 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with 9 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: part two. In the last episode, we talked about the settlement, 10 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: the original colonization of the Pacific Islands, and today we're 11 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: back to talk about some documentation of the amazing navigation 12 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: techniques used by the master navigators of various Pacific islands. 13 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: And I'm really excited to talk about this stuff today 14 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: because I've been reading this big, very important book on 15 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: the subject that was published in nineteen seventy two by 16 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: an author named David Lewis, called We the Navigators that 17 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: involves extensive interviews with and then direct sailing and firsthand 18 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: observation of the navigation techniques of master navigators from the 19 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: Pacific Islands. For example, a man named Tevak of the 20 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: Santa Cruz Reef Islands and a man named hip Or 21 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: of Poula Watt in the Carolines. And today we're gonna 22 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: be talking about some of these specific navigation techniques. Yeah, 23 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 1: and again these are the techniques of environmental navigation, so 24 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: navigation at sea on the open sea, conducted without instruments. 25 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: And so I mean that's ultimately the really amazing part 26 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: of this. But then at the same same time, I 27 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: want to stress something we've mentioned in the first episode 28 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: that this is also not based in sort of a 29 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: gut instinct, a kind of well I've been at sea enough, 30 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: I kind of know what I'm doing. No, this is 31 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: a this is a science. This is this is these 32 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: are techniques that would have that were passed down from 33 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 1: generation to generation, from skilled individual to two skilled individual. 34 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 1: And uh and so you know, we see this continued 35 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: on in oral traditions, but then also we've seen them recorded, 36 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: especially in the last few decades. Uh, that there's been 37 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: a resurgence of interest in this um an effort to 38 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: to make sure that these traditions and techniques survived and 39 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: then also to use them to understand the history of 40 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: the colonization of these islands by ancient humans, right. And 41 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: one of the points that Lewis argues in his book 42 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: is that the colonization of the islands of the Pacific 43 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: was not driven entirely by random drift, say, people getting 44 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: blown off course by a storm or getting lost and 45 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: then happening upon a new island. That that Instead, he 46 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: argues that a lot of these islands were probably discovered 47 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: by deliberate exploratory probes. Right, So let's get into some 48 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: of the techniques. Then We're going to start with what 49 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: may seem the most obvious, and that is the stars. 50 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: There are a lot of amazing techniques to talk about, 51 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 1: but this is by far the most important one. Yes, 52 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: So Pacific islanders, uh, specifically, the trained navigators, they did 53 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: use the stars. The train navigator knew the positions of 54 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: important stars and their relationship to islands by heart. They 55 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: knew how the pattern of the stars changed depending on 56 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: where you went and what time of the year it was. 57 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: And they could also use the stars to determine latitude, 58 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: so that's her north south positioning. They could roughly determine 59 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: where they were in relation to the equator based on 60 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: the height of polaris or the southern cross above the horizon, 61 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: which they would measure, again not using instruments, but using 62 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: the human hand. Yes, or sometimes I think also maybe uh, 63 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: parts of the boat could be used to sort of 64 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: orient with the stars on the horizon. So if you're 65 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: unfamiliar with this kind of technique, as obviously most of 66 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: us are as I am, the mind is immediately boggled. 67 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: Right you think, Okay, how would I use the stars 68 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: to find I don't know, a city or something like that. Uh, 69 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 1: you don't. You wouldn't even know where to start. But 70 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: once you know what to look for, this actually becomes 71 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: an extremely reliable method. Uh, And specifically the really important 72 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 1: guide stars here are constellations that are low in the 73 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: sky around the point where they are either rising or setting, 74 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: and can be easily associated with a particular heading toward 75 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 1: the horizon. So you're steering your boat and you're observing 76 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: the stars right around the horizon. So these would be 77 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: either stars and star constellations that have recently risen or 78 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: are about to set, depending on which direction east west 79 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: you're heading. So if you have a particular destination in mind, 80 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: and you know you're starting position, you can associate your 81 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: destination with a particular guide star, or what a guide 82 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: star would actually mean is a series of stars and 83 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: star constellations that will move move vertically up and down 84 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: across the sky as the night goes on. But they 85 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 1: might be identified by say the first star you would 86 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: see in the sequence, as as the guide star, and 87 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 1: then the train of subsequent stars that would move up 88 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: and down as the night goes on. But that is 89 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: associated with a particular island. Now, of course, it gets 90 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: much more complicated than that, because, for one thing, you 91 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: have to take into account position and geography. Because while 92 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: a star can help give you a heading toward a 93 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: known island that's associated with it would only necessarily be 94 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: associated with the island you're heading for from a particular direction. Right, 95 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: So if you're heading from east to west, the island 96 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: you're looking for is under a certain star, but if 97 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: you're heading from north to the same island, that island 98 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: would be under a different star. Right. So the stars 99 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: help you get an orientation, but you have to know 100 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 1: the relationships between a sort of mental map of islands 101 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: in your head and how shifting the starting point of 102 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: the journey will shift, what star path will lead you 103 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: to your island destination. But it gets even more complicated 104 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 1: than that, because, of course, as we mentioned, the stars 105 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 1: don't stay still throughout the night. The earth is rotating, 106 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: so the fixed stars rise and set across the sky 107 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: over the course of a night. And as the stars 108 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: rise higher or set below the horizon, they become less 109 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: useful or not useful at all for navigating without equipment 110 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: and charts, not just because say, they're higher as they're 111 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: rising up, but also because they tend to rise at 112 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: an angle, so they won't stay right where they're supposed 113 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: to be on the horizon. What you want is a 114 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: reference star that is either just rising if you're heading east, 115 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: or is just about to set if your head west. Um, 116 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 1: So what do you do there? Well, what you would 117 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: tend to do is cycle through new sets of rising 118 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: or falling guide stars that you know will keep you 119 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: pointed in the right direction. And Lewis writes about this 120 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: that on average you won't need more than about ten 121 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: guide stars to sail through an entire night, given the 122 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: amount of time that each star is usually pretty close 123 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: to the horizon, close enough to be usable. So you 124 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: can almost imagine kind of a I don't know, like 125 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: those like stock ticker strips. You know, the old one 126 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: is like a strip of stars that are peeling up 127 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: over the horizon all night long, and each one, you know, 128 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: is the next one in the set that is still 129 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: oriented with the top star in that strip that will 130 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: keep you going in the direction you need to go. 131 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: But stop and think about, like how much memorization this requires, 132 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: Like how much you need to know about what the 133 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: stars look like, what their orientations are, and their relationships 134 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: to the islands you need to get to depending on 135 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: where you're starting point is So the amount of now 136 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: vigational lore that needs to be committed to memory and 137 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: the amount of detail in it is is absolutely astounding. 138 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: I mean, it reminds me a little. These are not 139 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: directly comparable at all, but it reminds me a little 140 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: of how in or was it Mark Twain's life on 141 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: the Mississippi talking about how an experienced riverboat pilot would 142 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: need to know by heart the entire river, like all 143 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: the various details of its its twist and binds, its depth, etcetera, 144 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: and everything that went into knowing it. Which, um, yeah, 145 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: from what I've read, you can you can basically take 146 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: that and apply it to to any kind of nautical setting. 147 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: And certainly this one is well like you would need 148 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: to to know by heart the environment through which you 149 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: would be uh sailing, the environment of the waters, but 150 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 1: also the environment of the stars above. Yeah. And it 151 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: seems that while I don't know, while the mental memorization 152 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: of physical surroundings on land, including like trees and changes 153 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: in terrain and rocks and landmarks and stuff like that, 154 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: it maybe this is just my land lubber bias, but 155 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: it it seems like that kind of thing probably comes 156 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: more intuitively. It's more just sort of like a biological 157 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 1: default to recognize landmarks like plants and rocks and stuff 158 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: like that. Then it would be to memorize the stars 159 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: as your landmarks for guidance. Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. 160 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 1: I mean, it almost feels like saving through through space. Uh, 161 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: though of course there's gonna be plenty concerning the water 162 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,199 Speaker 1: itself and uh and uh and other environmental cues that 163 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 1: will get to But but certainly at this point in 164 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: the in the podcast, it's easy to to almost think 165 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: of these as space voyages because of the degree of 166 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: focus that must be placed on the stars, right, and 167 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: so experienced specific navigators can use these rising and setting 168 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: guide stars to form this extremely accurate mental compass. Lewis 169 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: gives one example of one of his voyages with the 170 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: navigator TVAK, and he says, quote, by these obliquely sinking stars, 171 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 1: he was able to inform me that during the evening 172 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: that the wind had backed from southeast to south southeast. 173 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: I seriously doubted the accuracy of his observation until Canopus, 174 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: topping the horizon on a bearing of a hundred and 175 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: forty three degrees exactly in line with our stern, confirmed 176 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: that we were in fact dead on course and that 177 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: the wind had changed. Now, there's another variation on the 178 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,559 Speaker 1: idea of guide stars for navigation that is known as 179 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: the sidereal compass. That is basically like a view of 180 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: the night sky that identifies particular rising or setting stars 181 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: with points on an imagined compass. Again, this is not 182 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: a piece of equipment and external tool. This is a 183 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: compass in the brain that has a picture a mental 184 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: map of the stars and how the stars along the 185 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:51,719 Speaker 1: horizon will give you information about north, southeast, and west. Now, 186 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: these are the basic primary methods of navigation by stars, 187 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: but obviously in practice, it's a lot more complicated, so 188 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: a few examples. Of course, there is a lot of 189 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,439 Speaker 1: adjusting the course to compensate for variations in currents and winds, 190 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 1: and to be adaptable for for celestial orientation markers when 191 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 1: part of the sky is obscured, for example, by clouds, 192 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: and I'll mention more about that in a minute. There's 193 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: another thing that's a complication with the use of guide 194 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:23,319 Speaker 1: stars for navigation, which is the seasonality of guide stars. Now, 195 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: of course, the availability of guide stars varies with the seasons, 196 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: because the sidereal day is actually twenty three hours and 197 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: fifty six minutes long, not twenty four hours. So each 198 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: star rises and sets four minutes earlier each night. And 199 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: as you can imagine, as this builds up over time, 200 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: you're actually going to be having different star maps available 201 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: to you as the year goes on. So in illustrating this, 202 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: Lewis writes that quote Tevak told me that the sailing 203 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 1: season in the Santa Cruz group lasted all year round, 204 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: and that there were appropriate steering stars for each time 205 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: of year. Similarly, when two two indicated the stars for 206 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: the Nomuka Tonga Tapoo passage, he stressed that the ones 207 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,199 Speaker 1: he was showing me were usable only up to about September, 208 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: after which new stars and sailing directions had to be used. 209 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: So not only do you have to understand this whole 210 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: star map and its relationship to the island geography, but 211 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: also if you if you're sailing across different seasons, you 212 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 1: have to have the seasonal backups in mind as well. 213 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: Then there's even more to to take into account. One thing, 214 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: for example, is wind and leeway, So experience navigators will 215 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: have a mental map to reach their destination that must 216 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: include compensation for leeway, you know, the sideward drift of 217 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: a boat as as is blown sort of off course 218 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 1: by wind. So if the navigator knows that the destination 219 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: is under a particular star, but there is a known 220 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: and relatively dependable amount of southerly drift on the journey 221 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: do to prevailing winds and currents, they actually have to 222 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: aim a certain amount north of the guide star. Yeah, 223 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 1: and that's just for permanent drifts. There's also sort of 224 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: more ad hoc compensation that has to take place along 225 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: the way as well. But one of the big things 226 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 1: that that really struck me about this was how how 227 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: much it inverts the logic of nighttime navigation versus daytime navigation. 228 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 1: You know, uh, like, how how would you think, what 229 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: do you think would be the best time to try 230 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: to get somewhere. Obviously you would probably think it's in 231 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: the day right when you can see where you need 232 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: to go. But it is much easier to use the 233 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: highly dependable celestial navigation techniques of of the Pacific Islander 234 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: navigation lore at night than it is in the daytime. 235 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: There there's still tools they use in the daytime, and 236 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: I'll talk about those in a minute. Um, But even 237 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,319 Speaker 1: when the stars are largely obscured by clouds and experience, 238 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: navigator can usually use some stars in the sky to 239 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: orient and to get onto the correct bearing, for example, 240 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,599 Speaker 1: by noting which stars might lie it's a nine d 241 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: degrees to the course, etcetera. Yeah, I mean it almost 242 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: sounds like you would you would probably want to leave 243 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: the shore, you know, around dusk, um, and uh, and 244 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: then once and then hopefully you're you're out to sea 245 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: by the time the stars have come out. Right. Well, 246 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: there's actually there's a good bit of thought about when 247 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: are the best times to arrive and depart. So they 248 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: talked about Yeah, I think it's usually customary to leave 249 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: during the daytime. And one of the main reasons it's 250 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: important to leave during the daytime is not only that 251 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: people can be notified and you can say prepare things 252 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: to take along with you that same day, like fresh food, 253 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: and you can say your farewells to people during the daytime, 254 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: but you can also look back at the island you're 255 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: leaving from to get back bearings, right, so you can 256 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: make use of the land if your navigation for as 257 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: long as it's feasible, right. And it's also usually can 258 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: cosidered important to arrive at your destination during the daytime 259 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: because one of the great perils actually of Pacific navigation 260 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: is accidentally missing your target in the dark. If you 261 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: sail past the island in the dark and you don't 262 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: realize you've done it, that can be uh that that 263 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: could be a death sentence. So it's kind of interesting 264 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: while you're out on the open ocean, navigating at night 265 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: is ideal. That's you know, where you get these accurate 266 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: guide stars. But I think it's often considered good to 267 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: leave the island during the daytime and to arrive at 268 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: your destination during the daytime. And sometimes uh. And there 269 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: might be some exceptions to that, but those seem to 270 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: be some general principles that were observed at least that 271 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: Lewis mentioned and uh. And so that would require very 272 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: careful timing of the journey, right, Like you need to 273 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: know pretty much exactly how long it's going to take, 274 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: how many days, so that you can time it out 275 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: like that. And just as one example about the dangers 276 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: of missing an island at night, uh, the Lewis talk 277 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: about at least one of the navigators he worked with 278 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: having a practice of when you're getting close to the 279 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: island and it's really dark out, sometimes they would just 280 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: stop sailing. They would slow down. They would uh it's 281 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: called heaving to you know, they would heave to to 282 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: slow the progress of the boat, just to be super 283 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: careful that they didn't accidentally, say, sail between two islands 284 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: unnoticed in the middle of the night. But while the 285 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: nighttime star navigation is the most accurate thing to use, 286 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: there are clues you can use for navigation in the 287 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: daytime as well. For example, you can use the sun. 288 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: It's more difficult to use the sun, but it can 289 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: be done. Uh. And it's more difficult for a number 290 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: of reasons. First of all, there's only one of it, 291 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: and its position can vary a lot over the seasons. Right, 292 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: Unlike the stars, the relative position of the Sun on 293 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: the horizon of Earth has a lot more variability. But 294 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: even with the seasonal variability of the Sun's position, you 295 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: can still use it to navigate by pairing it with 296 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: external reference to the stars. And this was one of 297 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: the many moments in this book. It gave me that like, oh, 298 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: of course kind of feeling, and this was one of them. 299 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: So uh So, Lewis writes at one point about another 300 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: scholar who had been writing about Pacific navigation uh named 301 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: acre Blom. He says, quote acre Blom surprisingly asserts that 302 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: to achieve a satisfactory degree of accuracy when checking the 303 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: course by means of the bearing of the rising or 304 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 1: setting sun, the Polynesian navigator must necessarily have had access 305 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 1: to some form of memorized table of the changes in 306 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: the sun's asimuth. So it's you know, changes in rising 307 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: and setting patterns over the seasons. But contrary to that, 308 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: Lewis says, all the navigator actually needs, of course, are 309 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: his eyes and a knowledge of the stars. The sun 310 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: star comparison could be made twice in each day if 311 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: one were so minded. So when the sun is rising 312 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: or setting, you can check its orientation with respect to 313 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: the stars that appear, you know, before or after it, 314 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: and then you can basically know where on the horizon 315 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: it is rising or setting at this time of er. Wow. Yeah. 316 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: Now there are other methods of maintaining course setting during 317 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: the daytime that are again more difficult than the nighttime, 318 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: but still possible. And another method that I thought was 319 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: really interesting was steering by ocean swells. And there are 320 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: actually two different uses here. Um, So there's one thing, 321 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: which is navigation by swells in the open water. So 322 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: if you're out you know no side of land anywhere nearby, 323 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 1: you can use ocean swells to help you do direction finding, 324 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: just like you would use the sun or the stars. 325 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: But in addition to that, using the swells is actually 326 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: a land finding technique. It changes in how the ocean 327 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: swells are affected by nearby land masses can be used 328 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: to locate islands that are nearby, and this is something 329 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: we'll probably talk about more in the next part of 330 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: this of this series. But what does it mean to 331 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: steer by swells in the daytime. Well swells are permanent 332 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: wave patterns with specific cardinal origin points, which are associated 333 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,719 Speaker 1: not with waves kicked up by transient weather, but with 334 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:14,360 Speaker 1: strong and persistent wind patterns associated with specific permanent weather systems, 335 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: for example, the trade winds or what or what A 336 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 1: Louis calls the Southern Ocean belt of strong Westerly's. Yeah, 337 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: and I think we can sort of loosely imagine like 338 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: a recreation of a basic form of this, you know, 339 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: some sort of a model or a simulation. If you 340 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: had a body of water and you had say a 341 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: fan or something creating some sort of you know, disturbance 342 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: across the surface, and it it was regular, what would 343 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: happen if you then dropped some islands in there? It 344 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: could disrupt the waves, especially in if we were talking 345 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 1: in in the actual ocean, in the form of long 346 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:56,199 Speaker 1: ocean waves as they bend around land masses, and and 347 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 1: this wave disruption can be identified by a skilled eye 348 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 1: enable them to detect land hundreds of kilometers wave and 349 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: which is is pretty amazing, right, And so that's the 350 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: kind that would be used specifically for the land finding, right, 351 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: But you can also use the c swells, like you 352 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: would use the stars to get directional orientation to know 353 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: which direction is north southeast or west without a compass, 354 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: because if you know basically what direction a c swell 355 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: that is permanent and reliable comes from, you can detect 356 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: that swell and then no, okay, that way is south southeast. Right. 357 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: So so now we have not only the stars above, 358 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: but also uh the wave patterns the CEA swells as well. Right, 359 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: So these permanent weather patterns, they originate in a fairly 360 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 1: consistent direction from your location. Now, part of the ignorant 361 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: land dweller in me is just incredulous here, right, Like 362 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: when I'm out in a boat on the ocean, waves 363 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: seem utterly random to me. I could not I could 364 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: not identify that waves are coming from a particular direction. 365 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: And you know, but they're well, unless it's coming from 366 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: a ski do right then you write motor boat that's coming. 367 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 1: By then it's pretty clear what's creating the distraction. That's 368 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,479 Speaker 1: a good point. But you know, just the general choppy 369 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 1: wave patterns of the ocean, I wouldn't have any idea 370 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 1: what to do. But if you are trained in knowing 371 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: what to look for, you actually can identify particular wave 372 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: patterns or swell patterns. Lewis actually makes a distinction between 373 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 1: waves and swells um but but they're not just random. 374 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: The system of orientation based on swells is not as 375 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: reliable as the stars, but it's still pretty reliable. So 376 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: the question would be, well, how do you detect them? 377 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: One interesting fact is that the navigators Lewis learned from 378 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: seemed to consult the swells based on feeling them in 379 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: the body more so than looking at them, which means 380 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 1: that they can be used to steer not only in 381 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: the daytime, but on overcast nights. So when the stars 382 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: are completely hidden that's your main orientation tool gone, and 383 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: there's no light to see, you could still potentially feel 384 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:08,919 Speaker 1: the directional swells and get an orientation based on that. Wow, 385 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: that's interesting and it makes perfect sense. So how do 386 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: you feel swells? Well, there's a part in Lewis's book 387 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: where he talks about this. He says, quote T. K 388 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 1: told me he would sometimes retire to the hut on 389 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: his canoes out rigger platform, where he could lie down 390 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: and without distraction, more readily direct the helmsman onto the 391 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,919 Speaker 1: proper course. By analyzing the role and pitch of the 392 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: vessel as it cork screwed over the waves. In distinguishing swells, 393 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: he stressed, you have to wait patiently until the one 394 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: you want has a spell of being prominent and discernible. 395 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: So there is a lot of noise in the waves, right, 396 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of conflicting, you know, wave wave 397 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: action coming in different directions. But there's a certain pattern 398 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: you can recognize from a known swell, And once there's 399 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: a there's the right kind of timing in the wave 400 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: action for you to IDENTI find the pattern of that 401 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: known directional swell, you can orient based on that, and 402 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: this would be again done by feeling it in the 403 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: body and feeling the direction of the rolling of the boat. 404 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: So when you think about how a boat moves in 405 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: the waves, it can pitch, it can move up and down, 406 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: forward to back, and it can roll from side to side, 407 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: and the interaction of pitch and roll will tell you 408 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: something about the direction that the swell is coming from. 409 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: Right now, in saying that this type of navigation method 410 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 1: is more reliable than it sounds, I also don't want 411 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 1: to overstate or understate the difficulty of detecting it right 412 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: that there is a lot of noisy way of action 413 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: going on in the ocean, so somebody has to be 414 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: really experienced and know what it is they're feeling for 415 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: in order to feel it. And I just want to 416 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 1: read one section of Lewis talking about attempting to understand 417 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 1: what's going on with the navigation based on swells. Uh 418 00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 1: He writes, quote the course toward Tomaco was east northeat 419 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 1: directly into the C swell that came from the same 420 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: direction that it was only present or at any rate detectable. 421 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: Occasionally at such times it could be picked out by I, 422 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: and as the ship rowed up and over it, meaning 423 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 1: pitched without any role at all, except when the steep 424 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: northerly wind wave happened to coincide when the boat, the 425 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 1: Spiorn was rolled to starboard at the same moment as 426 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: she was pitching over the head on C swell. In 427 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,719 Speaker 1: those long intervals where the C swell was absent, the 428 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: wind wave rolled us to starboard about once every five 429 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: seconds without there being any pitching component. I could feel 430 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: little effect from the southeast or northwest swells. After nightfall, 431 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 1: we steered by the stars, the swells remaining unchanged except 432 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 1: that the wind wave declined. So that's about like trying 433 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 1: to understand that they're different. In fact, there are multiple 434 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,199 Speaker 1: swells at any given time, probably hitting you from different directions, 435 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 1: and so the experience navigator is looking or a particular 436 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,360 Speaker 1: type of swell. You know that you could actually make 437 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: the same journey potentially and look for different swells to 438 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: steer you in aid of it. You just have to 439 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: know which ones you're feeling for. And that goes back 440 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,439 Speaker 1: to the example you mentioned earlier about just like like 441 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: setting there or laying there on the boat and just 442 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,640 Speaker 1: waiting to to feel the one you're looking for. It's 443 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: not just okay, the waves you're hitting me, I got 444 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: the pattern. No, you're looking for the specific pattern amid 445 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: the noise or amid the waves right when there may 446 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: be multiple patterns coming at you at the same time. 447 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 1: You're just trying to pick the right one out, get 448 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: the timing right to understand, yes, this is it. But 449 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: as you were talking about earlier, I think it's important 450 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: to remember and again, well we'll get more into this 451 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: in the next episode. The ability to detect and measure 452 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: swells in their direction of origin is not useful just 453 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: in steering on the open ocean, but it's also one 454 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: of the techniques for understanding when land is near. Now, 455 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:58,360 Speaker 1: there are a couple of other things that are really 456 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: interesting about navig aiding on the open ocean. There's one 457 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: more orientation technique that is even less reliable than the others, 458 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: but it is sometimes still used as a backup. That's 459 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,439 Speaker 1: known as the wind compass. So it's it's basically operating 460 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: on the presence of known wind patterns to give you 461 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 1: indications about about directionality. So you might, for example, use 462 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: the aid of a tool here, an external tool like 463 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: a pennant, the you know, kind of flag object that 464 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: would allow you to determine patterns of winds and where 465 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: they come from. And if you know that there are 466 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 1: certain dominant patterns of winds, you can kind of use 467 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: that to give you another data point in orienting your 468 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: boat in the right direction. Now, there's a whole other 469 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,159 Speaker 1: world of ad hoc adjustment that needs to take place 470 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: on top of everything we've already been talking about. You know, 471 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: basically everything we've been talking about is getting the correct bearing, 472 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: knowing you're going in the right direction towards your target 473 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,199 Speaker 1: island based on your starting point. But of course in 474 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: sailing you can always just sail in a straight line. 475 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 1: Right winds and ocean currents will gradually shift you off 476 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: course and you have to understand how that's happening and 477 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,239 Speaker 1: compensate for it. Which again this is one of those 478 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: things where I just like react to that, thinking like 479 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: it seems impossible, how could you do it? But but 480 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: they have methods that they can do it. And there 481 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 1: are a lot of methods here, but for example, one 482 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 1: that I really liked, Lewis discusses on the first stage 483 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: of one journey with hip Hoor, departing from pula Wat, 484 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: hip Hoor would keep track of back bearings on the 485 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 1: island that they were leaving to see how the current 486 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: was affecting their heading. So you have the reference point 487 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: of the island, landmarks the island you're leaving, and then 488 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: you can see from your heading as you're leaving the 489 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: island how strong the current is at the moment. And then, 490 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 1: to to read from Louis here quote if said hip 491 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 1: Hoor it turned out on further observation to be weak, 492 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: we would head towards It's the point where vegas set, 493 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: which is about at three hundred and nine degrees if strong, 494 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: as proved to be the case towards the setting point 495 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: of the pl A D s at about two hundred 496 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: and eighty five degrees. Thus there were at least two 497 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,959 Speaker 1: distinct star courses traditionally laid down for this passage, and 498 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: probably four to allow for strong and weak south flowing currents. 499 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: This was a north flowing current. So not only do 500 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,360 Speaker 1: you need to know the right headings for uh, for 501 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: the island you need to get to under you know, 502 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: basically like neutral conditions, you also have to know what 503 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 1: headings you would use if the current is a certain 504 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: strength in a certain direction and the corresponding guide stars 505 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 1: of course, um. But so if the wind or current 506 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: is moving you laterally off course while steering in the 507 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: open ocean, and so you don't have like, you know, 508 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: back bearings like an island to refer to. How would 509 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: you even know it? How do you know how far 510 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: off course you're getting blown by the wind. This was 511 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: another moment where the technique was revealed and was like, oh, 512 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: of course, I thought this method was ingenious. Some of 513 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: the navigators here would look at the wake left behind 514 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: by the boat. So if if leeway I mean, you know, 515 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: wind the blowing the boat sideways in addition to forward. 516 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: If leeway is affecting your course, one way to judge 517 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: this is by looking at the degree of the angle 518 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: between the straight line you're attempting to steer on. So 519 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: you can imagine a straight line going from the stern 520 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: to the bow of the boat, you know, and just 521 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: going off towards the horizon in every direction. Look at 522 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: the angle between that line and the trail of wake 523 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: left behind you. This might be kind of hard to 524 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: visualize without a without a picture, so I'm sorry, but Rob, 525 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: I've got a picture for you to look at. Here 526 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: you can see that there's actually an angle of difference 527 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: in between the wake behind the boat as you're getting 528 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: blown off course and the straight line that you are 529 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: attempting to steer on. Yeah, you can imagine it is 530 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: looking back and saying, not a straight wake behind you 531 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: going back to you know, to just directly behind you, 532 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: as if it is a line drawn from the rear 533 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: of the vessel, but something that is diagonal because because 534 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: of the way the wind is blowing the vessel from 535 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 1: the side right. So by seeing that angle and how 536 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: large it is, a master navigator is able to correct 537 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: for the amount of leeway that they're being blown off course. 538 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: Now there's a huge thing that we haven't gotten into 539 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: in detail yet here, but a big section of Lewis's 540 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: book is about the Pacific navigation forms of dead reckoning, 541 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: and dead reckoning is estimating the position of your boat 542 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: without reference to any new markers around you, but rather 543 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: by knowing your past position and estimating how far you 544 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: have traveled from there and in what direction. So this 545 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: is crucial to keeping track of your journey. But this 546 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: is a different thing because it's not giving you new 547 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: information from your surroundings. It's rather a sort of keeping 548 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: track of your position on a mental map by just 549 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: using the information already in your possession. And one mental 550 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: tool that seems to help with this process and Pacific 551 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: navigation has been referred to as attack. Again, this is 552 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: not a means of acquiring new information from the environment, 553 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 1: but rather a visualization or a mental reference system for 554 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: understanding one's place in relation to other things. Unfortunately, this 555 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: is yet another concept that is kind of hard to 556 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: explain without visual aids. But Rob, I've got a visual 557 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: aid for you to look at here, and I will 558 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: do my best to try to explain it. Basically, it 559 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: hinges on having this mastery of relationships between stars, vantage points, 560 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: and various geographical locations, specifically islands on in the nearby surroundings. 561 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: So as a point of analogy, imagine that you want 562 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: to travel between New York in Chicago by stars. One 563 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: way that I can help understand where I am along 564 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: my journey is if I have a third reference point 565 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: in mind. So let's say Atlanta. So I know that 566 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: I start in New York, and when I start in 567 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: New York, I know from where I am, Atlanta is 568 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 1: going to be under Star A from my point of view. 569 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: So if I wanted to travel to Atlanta, I would 570 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: take my beer, I would head towards Star A on 571 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: the horizon. But by the time I reached Chicago, now, 572 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: because I'm at a different vantage point, Atlanta is underneath 573 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: Star C from my point of view, and there's a 574 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: midpoint in between Chicago and New York where Atlanta, from 575 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: my vantage point is underneath Star B. So the whole 576 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: time I never see Atlanta. But this mental reference system 577 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: allows me to break my journey into recognizable segments where 578 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: I keep track of each time the third reference island 579 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: or in my analogy, Atlanta has moved under a new 580 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: star from my point of view. Does that make sense? Yeah, 581 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 1: I think so. And this this visual reference helps a bed. Yeah, 582 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: I'm sorry you folks at home can't see it, but uh, 583 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: actually you know if you do, if you do just 584 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 1: a Google search for etach reference points, I don't think 585 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 1: you will find the exact um illustration that I'm looking at, 586 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: but you'll see some that are similar to They give 587 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: you an idea of what we're talking about. It's e 588 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: T A K. Yeah, though it's complicated by the fact 589 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 1: that this appears also to be the name of a 590 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: like a car navigation system, uh software. So if you 591 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: if you Google attack islands there you'll see the right illustrations. Yeah, yeah, 592 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: that'll cut out some of the car stuff. But I 593 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: think this system is is also really interesting because it 594 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,719 Speaker 1: I think it still is important to think of it 595 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: as a useful tool for navigation, even though it provides 596 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 1: no additional information to the navigator. Instead, what it is 597 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: is it seems to be that it's useful as a 598 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 1: system for mentally keeping track of the information you already have, 599 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: for knowing how far you've come, where you are, and 600 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: how far you have left to go. Uh, which is 601 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 1: interesting because I mean, obviously that's an important part of 602 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 1: of any travel, right, is sort of visualizing the whole 603 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 1: of your journey in ways they're not immediately apparent to 604 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: your senses. Yeah, and I guess as in modern travelers 605 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: with modern instruments, being at sea or on land, Yeah, 606 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: we're still engaging in some level of that. We still 607 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: have some level of a mental map, but we have 608 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:43,240 Speaker 1: these other tools that make our mental map less important. 609 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: Maybe sometimes the mental map is even incorrect. Like you know, 610 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,760 Speaker 1: if you're if you're relying heavily on a GPS device 611 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: to drive you from one point to the other. I 612 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,800 Speaker 1: guess you could theoretically not know if you're really driving 613 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: north or west or south or what have you, as 614 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: long as the system got you there. But in this case, 615 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 1: the mental map is everything. The Milton in the mental 616 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: map has to be carefully cultivated using uh knowledge of 617 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: all of these environmental cues, these different systems. Uh. It's 618 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:18,359 Speaker 1: it's really quite quite amazing. Uh it's uh yeah, it's 619 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,839 Speaker 1: it's it's something else. So when you're driving somewhere new 620 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: that you've never been before with the aid of a GPS, 621 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: you know, like a map, SAP on a phone or something. 622 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: Can Can you just plug it in and go? Or 623 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: do you, like me strongly prefer to look at the 624 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 1: whole route first. Um, I tend to just go the 625 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 1: same way I do recipes for meals. It's just I 626 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: just trust that. I mean, I look and make sure 627 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 1: I have what I need. In the same case, I'll 628 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: look at my gas tank and make sure I have 629 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: enough gas to get where I'm going. I'll see how 630 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 1: much how long it says it's gonna take for me 631 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: to get there. But then I'll just go I'll just 632 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: start cooking, or I'll or I'll just start driving and 633 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 1: trust that I will get there and I'll figure out 634 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: on the way of there any snakes. This must be 635 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: differences in personality type somehow, I guess I'm I'm more 636 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:12,720 Speaker 1: annoying about this or something. I really don't like having 637 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 1: to navigate based on just a moment to moment directions 638 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 1: on an app without seeing the entire route first. I 639 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: like to look at the whole map, see what the 640 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: steps are, see how far it is, see like see 641 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: it visually represented. That really matters to me for some reason. 642 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:30,839 Speaker 1: I mean, I might glance at it if if I 643 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: know there's going to be some weird exit, if it 644 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 1: says that, oh, I'm getting off at this exit, and 645 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: normally I don't do that. I'm kind of curious what 646 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: route I'm taking then, But otherwise I just go, well, 647 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,720 Speaker 1: you know. The weird thing is, I think one reason 648 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 1: I do that, it's not like it usually gives me 649 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: important information that I actually need in addition to whatever 650 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: the step by step instructions in real time are. Instead, 651 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: I feel like it's something closer to the attack system, 652 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: where I just want to be able to visualize in 653 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: this app stract way the whole of the journey and 654 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,879 Speaker 1: sort of imagine where I am along the journey at 655 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 1: various points. M yeah, but I feel like I'm going 656 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 1: to do that anyway as I drive, Like there's kind 657 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 1: of a perhaps a less accurate version of that that's 658 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: going to be going on in my head. But it 659 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 1: says it's as accurate as it needs to be. Yeah, 660 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 1: Like if the GPS satellites were to suddenly get taken 661 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,759 Speaker 1: out by aliens or something, um, you know, I could 662 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: I get backtrack or even if it's if I've driven 663 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: this particular route before, I can probably remember the rest 664 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: of the way. Um, But otherwise I'm good. Well, I 665 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 1: wonder if we should call part two there and then 666 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: come back in part three to talk about one of 667 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 1: the next really interesting things, which is all of this 668 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: has been mostly about navigation, direction finding and navigation, especially 669 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 1: on the open sea, but a whole other part of 670 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 1: this science of navigation is land finding. When you're getting 671 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,359 Speaker 1: close to an island, how do you know that and 672 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,880 Speaker 1: how do you find it? And so let's save that 673 00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 1: for part three. Yeah, part three, we will we will 674 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 1: make landfall or try to make landfall appropriately. All right. 675 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you would like to check out 676 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 1: other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you know 677 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: where you can find them in the Stuff to Blow 678 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,360 Speaker 1: your Mind podcast feed. We have core episodes of Stuff 679 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,240 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Monday's 680 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 1: we do a little listener mail. On Wednesdays we do 681 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 1: short form episode we're calling it the Artifact, and then 682 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: on Friday's we do Weird How Cinema. That's our time 683 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: to set aside most of the science and the culture 684 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: and just talk about a weird emotion picture and then 685 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 1: we have reruns on the weekend. Huge thanks as always 686 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,920 Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you 687 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 1: would look to get in touch with us with feedback 688 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,280 Speaker 1: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic 689 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 1: for the future, or just to say hello, you can 690 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 1: email us at contact. That's Stuff to Blow your Mind 691 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 1: dot com Stuff to Blow your Mind. It's production of 692 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts, my heart Radio. This 693 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,880 Speaker 1: is the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 694 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:12,280 Speaker 1: you're listening to your favorite shows.