Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,
Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of
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Speaker 3: Good morning, and welcome to Counterpoints. Emily.
Speaker 4: Thanks to you and Christel for picking up the slack
Speaker 4: last Wednesday. How was the Ladies Show?
Speaker 5: It was great? How was the Fish show? Shows?
Speaker 3: The Fish Shows were wonderful.
Speaker 4: Might be a little weepy today and now the re
Speaker 4: entry is difficult, the serotonin depletion, but I think we'll.
Speaker 3: Get through this. So you've got this. If you do
Speaker 3: see a tier two, it's I got some other stuff
Speaker 3: going on.
Speaker 5: Yeah, he's working through things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, So we're going to have an interesting
Speaker 3: show today.
Speaker 4: We've got the results out of Michigan, both in the
Speaker 4: Republican primary and in the Democratic primary.
Speaker 3: Democratic voter sent Biden a brutal.
Speaker 4: Message by with more than one hundred thousand of them
Speaker 4: telling them, telling him they are uncommitted at this point,
Speaker 4: Republican voters sent Nikki Haley a pretty brutal message too well.
Speaker 5: I mean that's been an ongoing story for the last
Speaker 5: couple of months.
Speaker 3: Think she's going to get that message.
Speaker 5: She's I think I'm rooting for the comeback ride. She's
Speaker 5: the real underdog.
Speaker 3: I thing's possible.
Speaker 4: So we're going to talk about twenty twenty four polling.
Speaker 4: We're also going to have updates on the negotiations toward
Speaker 4: a potential ceasefire in the Israel Gaza war. My colleague
Speaker 4: mas Hussein was on John Stewart this week talking debating
Speaker 4: Israel Palace time with Yer Rosenberg. We're going to talk
Speaker 4: about that for a little bit and what else we got.
Speaker 4: We might have a shutdown. I think we will shut
Speaker 4: down by the end of this week.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think we will have a shutdown by the
Speaker 5: end of this week. So we're going to go through
Speaker 5: there's a bunch of clips from yesterday, people coming in
Speaker 5: and out of the White House, Speaker Mike Johnson, Chuck
Speaker 5: Schumer talking about their perspective on how to keep the
Speaker 5: government open. But it seems really unlikely that the government
Speaker 5: is going to stay open. So we'll break down some
Speaker 5: of those dynamics as they stand today. Whens and we're
Speaker 5: really excited to have Gabriel shipt him back in a
Speaker 5: year for an interview.
Speaker 4: And Julian Sanje's brother. He's in the United States this week.
Speaker 4: He'll be in studio. Last week, as you guys talked about,
Speaker 4: Juliana sanch had potentially his last extradition hearing over in
Speaker 4: the UK. The next step would be yanking him over
Speaker 4: here and throwing him into some maximum security prison for
Speaker 4: the crime of publishing documents.
Speaker 5: Let's start those with Starbucks.
Speaker 3: Ryan, Yes, some huge news on the union front.
Speaker 4: So Starbucks announced yesterday that it has reached an agreement
Speaker 4: with Starbucks United, which is the union that has been
Speaker 4: going around organizing Starbucks coffee shops around the country. It
Speaker 4: has been, you know, one of the you know, most
Speaker 4: intense kind of battles between labor and capital that we
Speaker 4: that we've seen in the United States. Schultze, CEO, the
Speaker 4: founder of the company, just despises this union with every
Speaker 4: fiber of his body.
Speaker 5: He takes it so personally he does.
Speaker 4: And what we learned from the American Prospect actually is
Speaker 4: that these negotiations began after and I'd reported this in
Speaker 4: the intercept, that Starbucks decided it was going to sue
Speaker 4: its union for using a Starbucks logo while opposing the
Speaker 4: War in Gaza. So all of us actually started with
Speaker 4: the Starbucks workers protest against the War in Gaza.
Speaker 3: Those that lawsuit then led.
Speaker 4: To some negotiations between the union and the company, and
Speaker 4: over the last week, as the Prospect reports, those negotiations
Speaker 4: evolved into actual talks about the union itself. And so
Speaker 4: the result, and what we're hearing is that this is
Speaker 4: actually potentially more significant that it seems. The result is
Speaker 4: that there's going to be an agreement on an organized
Speaker 4: and fair process toward forming unions in Starbucks coffee shops,
Speaker 4: and Starbucks is going to negotiate collectively with all of
Speaker 4: those shops rather than what they've been doing is kind
Speaker 4: of individually trying to crush every union. And what I
Speaker 4: think this reveals is that Starbucks is recognizing a they
Speaker 4: have a huge image problem in the wake of the
Speaker 4: guys A war, yes, and also that their workers are
Speaker 4: overwhelmingly in support of a union.
Speaker 5: So it sounds like, I mean, Starbucks is one of
Speaker 5: the more interesting union dribes from my perspectives, because it
Speaker 5: also affects more than hundreds of thousands of workers in
Speaker 5: the United States. Basically an ever street cornerat in major
Speaker 5: cities and everyone's town at this point almost as a
Speaker 5: Starbucks unless you're lived in a pretty rural area. So
Speaker 5: there's just a lot going on with the dynamics culturally
Speaker 5: with Starbucks. There are people in major city is one
Speaker 5: of the reasons it was a great Jacobin interview from
Speaker 5: a couple of years ago. People felt like they were
Speaker 5: being forced to work like untrained social workers because of
Speaker 5: some of the new policies about bathrooms that have since
Speaker 5: been rescinded. But there's just I mean, Starbucks workers have
Speaker 5: a very interesting and I hate to use the word unique,
Speaker 5: but it is kind of a unique, I guess, case
Speaker 5: to make for the unionization.
Speaker 4: Meanwhile, relatedly, a Mercedes plant in UAW, the workers there
Speaker 4: announced that they that more than fifty percent of them
Speaker 4: have signed cards asking to be to organize with the UAW.
Speaker 3: So the UAW is.
Speaker 4: Absolutely on fire just like rolling up these plants, and
Speaker 4: whether they can actually turn just over fifty percent of
Speaker 4: cards into a union remains to be seen, but it
Speaker 4: shows extraordinary momentum. The ig Metal, which is maybe the
Speaker 4: biggest and strongest union in the world, a union in Germany,
Speaker 4: is going to pressure Mercedes and is pressuring Mercedes to
Speaker 4: be fair and to treat this treat this union drive fairly. Meanwhile,
Speaker 4: of course, Chinese ev cars are threatening to destroy the
Speaker 4: entire American auto manufacturing industry. So we'll see if the
Speaker 4: uaw's kind of revival comes a little bit too late.
Speaker 5: Well, Ran, that's a great transition to the Michigan primary
Speaker 5: election results. That it really really is perfect, especially with
Speaker 5: the electric vehicle point, not just the UAW, but specifically
Speaker 5: the election. Yeah, I think it's the fish though.
Speaker 3: The wave of your fer camerly flowed.
Speaker 5: So in Michigan last night, Donald Trump won the Republican
Speaker 5: nomination sixty eight to twenty seven percent, So sixty eight
Speaker 5: percent for Donald Trump, twenty seven percent for Nikki Haley.
Speaker 5: One of the big stories though, though you weren't hearing
Speaker 5: a lot about it in the media this morning, is
Speaker 5: that thirteen percent of Michigan voters selected uncommitted, so Joe
Speaker 5: Biden got eighty one percent of the vote. Thirteen percent
Speaker 5: went to uncommitted. If you're doing the math there, that's
Speaker 5: because also another five percentage points, as one of our
Speaker 5: great producers pointed out, for US went to Dean Phillips
Speaker 5: and Mary and Williamson. So one hundred thousand votes, more
Speaker 5: than one hundred thousand votes went to uncommitted. You add
Speaker 5: twenty two thousand for Maryanne and twenty thousand for Dean
Speaker 5: Phillips into the mix, and you're almost getting to one
Speaker 5: out of every five voters one in every eight went
Speaker 5: for uncommitted. But Michigan is a state that Joe Biden
Speaker 5: barely won. I think it was around three points he
Speaker 5: eked out of victory in twenty twenty, So a huge
Speaker 5: battleground state for him. And if you're doing the math,
Speaker 5: Ryan in a primary election which is generally low turnout,
Speaker 5: and in fact, forty percent more voters turned out for
Speaker 5: Republicans than Democrats last night, So if you're doing the
Speaker 5: math for Biden come November, this is a very very
Speaker 5: bad sign. We know that they were expecting potentially a
Speaker 5: bad sign because they've dispatched all of their aids, not
Speaker 5: all of them, but an army of aids to dearborn
Speaker 5: and the Muslim American communities in Michigan. So they understand
Speaker 5: that they have a problem on their hands here, but
Speaker 5: I think that problem might be bigger than even they realized.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the low turnout is key because you have to
Speaker 4: combine the two things. Yes, so there's one hundred thousand
Speaker 4: plus people in Michigan turned out to the polls to
Speaker 4: vote uncommitted. They walked to their polling place, they got
Speaker 4: on a bus, they drove, they saw in many cases,
Speaker 4: they registered that day just to register the fact that
Speaker 4: they wanted to reject Biden, that they were not willing
Speaker 4: to vote for Biden, a complete rejection of what they
Speaker 4: were being offered. The rest that represent that gap of
Speaker 4: forty fifty percent between Democrats and Republicans rejected the status
Speaker 4: quote by just staying home, and that hurts Democrats just
Speaker 4: as much. In November, ask Hillary Clinton what happens in
Speaker 4: Michigan when people are so unenthusiastic or opposed to your
Speaker 4: campaign that they just don't bother to show up on
Speaker 4: election Day.
Speaker 5: Yeah. And you know it's funny because I was reading
Speaker 5: a news report I think this was in the New
Speaker 5: York Times this morning about how you know if the
Speaker 5: Arab American vote swings thirty percent to Donald Trump at Michigan,
Speaker 5: it could be enough for Joe Biden to end up losing.
Speaker 5: They had a poll that showed something like that in
Speaker 5: the works, potentially a Times Siena pole. But to your point,
Speaker 5: just talking about a swing towards Trump is wildly insufficient.
Speaker 5: I mean, turnout is equally an important part of the
Speaker 5: equation there. So when you have forty percent more Republican
Speaker 5: voters turning out the Democratic voters, yeah, No, I mean
Speaker 5: I think that's not a great sign for Joe Biden.
Speaker 5: Who if you'd understand that there's a battle over uncommitted happening,
Speaker 5: you really want to make your mark for Joe Biden,
Speaker 5: you go turn out in the polls. So to have
Speaker 5: low turnout even if it's a pretty obvious outcome, right,
Speaker 5: you know that Joe Biden ultimately is going to prevail,
Speaker 5: but you would want to stamp down talk of quote uncommitted.
Speaker 5: You show up to vote.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think the bigger problem for the Biden
Speaker 4: campaign is that they they and their enablers in the
Speaker 4: media harbored this genuinely kind of racist view that it
Speaker 4: was only Arab and Muslim voters that cared about this genocide.
Speaker 3: Going on.
Speaker 4: The idea that there is universal concern for women, children, elderly,
Speaker 4: innocent people get getting killed is just kind of anathma
Speaker 4: to this increasing I guess identitarian politics that has taken
Speaker 4: hold in the Democratic Party, where you would have people saying,
Speaker 4: you know what, only two percent of the Michigan population
Speaker 4: is Arab, So this isn't actually a promise, like you
Speaker 4: really think that it's only Arab people that care about
Speaker 4: children getting killed by the hundreds every single day. And secondly,
Speaker 4: because the way the census works, it's not two percent,
Speaker 4: it's significantly more than two percent. But what these results
Speaker 4: showed is that racist assumption was utterly flawed. Basically everywhere
Speaker 4: around Michigan, at least ten percent of the electorate voted
Speaker 4: uncommitted places that have close to zero.
Speaker 3: Arab American population.
Speaker 4: Now in Dearborn, in places like that, you saw absolute
Speaker 4: blowouts for uncommitted, But in say ann Arbor, you had
Speaker 4: something like thirty percent of people coming out and voting uncommitted.
Speaker 4: So we can put up here, and it's also not
Speaker 4: just young people. You also hear young people and Arab
Speaker 4: Americans like that. That is the way that people have
Speaker 4: generously started to expand it. Oh yeah, you know, those
Speaker 4: soft hearted young people, they also care about genocide.
Speaker 3: That that's also not true.
Speaker 4: The penetration of opposition to genocide is is across the
Speaker 4: demographic board. Now, how many people are going to come
Speaker 4: out and express that varies, but it's not just isolated.
Speaker 5: So yeah, and if you were just looking at that map,
Speaker 5: you saw again that Dean Phillips and mary Anne Williamson
Speaker 5: had more than forty thousand votes between them in addition
Speaker 5: to the more than one hundred thousand votes.
Speaker 3: And those are protest votes.
Speaker 4: Nobody walked into the polling place thinking that if they
Speaker 4: voted for Marianne that she was going to win, or
Speaker 4: that they voted for Dean that he's going to become
Speaker 4: the nominee.
Speaker 3: That's sending a signal.
Speaker 4: And both of those candidates were deeply frustrated that all
Speaker 4: of the kind of social media energy and the kind
Speaker 4: of public on the ground grassroots energy became organized around
Speaker 4: voting uncommitted and no doubt, like back in nineteen sixty eight,
Speaker 4: you had McCarthy to vote for. Like it's easier for
Speaker 4: organizers if somebody is running on a popular banner of
Speaker 4: peace and it becomes the one that you're going to
Speaker 4: vote for to send that signal.
Speaker 3: That's much easier. But the population wants to.
Speaker 4: Express its democratic will and it's going to find a
Speaker 4: way to do it. Often they find that way to
Speaker 4: do it by just not voting and just not showing up.
Speaker 4: This gave people an opportunity to say, Okay, I can
Speaker 4: actually show up and be heard and have my frustration
Speaker 4: against this shown.
Speaker 5: So let's put a two up on the screen. This
Speaker 5: is some notable quote uncommitted slash no preference vote shares
Speaker 5: from Obama's uncontested twenty twelve primaries. So again this happened
Speaker 5: in twenty twelve. Those were very low turnout primaries because
Speaker 5: you know, satisfaction with the candidate was a lot higher
Speaker 5: than it is with Biden. So Kentucky was at forty
Speaker 5: two percent, Michigan itself was at a let seven percent,
Speaker 5: North Carolina twenty one percent, and then you had some
Speaker 5: other states Rhode Island, Tennessee. People were organized and Ryan
Speaker 5: you probably covered that at the time, mobilized enough people
Speaker 5: to come out to uncommitted to the point where it
Speaker 5: was forty two percent in Kentucky. But again, that was
Speaker 5: a totally different context and bigger.
Speaker 3: Raw numbers here.
Speaker 4: Yes, like the number of well over one hundred thousand
Speaker 4: is the one that they're going to have to take home.
Speaker 5: The satisfaction with Obama on behalf of Democrats in twenty
Speaker 5: eleven relatively high compared to.
Speaker 4: Well Bernie was calling for to his eternal kind of
Speaker 4: electoral Chagrin was calling for a primary challenge to Obama
Speaker 4: because he was embracing austerity at the time. By the
Speaker 4: time of the election, he had gone into kind of
Speaker 4: populist mode, painting Romney as the plutocrad that he was.
Speaker 4: And so the left was and there was no primary challenge.
Speaker 4: They're a little back behind that.
Speaker 5: But yeah, it's not like everyone was, Oh, Obama is,
Speaker 5: you know, the savior of the working class. But it
Speaker 5: was satisfaction with it Romney. Satisfaction with Joe Biden is
Speaker 5: on a Dissatisfaction with Joe Biden's on another level in
Speaker 5: this case. So let's go ahead and pivot to this
Speaker 5: conflict that bubbled over on CNN.
Speaker 4: We knew that cable News was going to have a
Speaker 4: measure sober response to the Michigan public declaring its opposition
Speaker 4: to this genocide, and they delivered for us. Yeah, let's
Speaker 4: show a friend of the show, Nina Turner here walking
Speaker 4: into the lions Den and trying to actually talk substance
Speaker 4: with a CNN horse race panel, and let's see how
Speaker 4: well that goes.
Speaker 6: And I think sometimes as we talk about this issue,
Speaker 6: we're making it. We're centering President Biden, we are centering
Speaker 6: former President Donald J. Trump, when the uncommitted efforts is
Speaker 6: the center the people closest to the pain, and that
Speaker 6: is the air of American community, that is the Palestinian community,
Speaker 6: that is communities that care about peace. And so while
Speaker 6: this president was in the ice cream shop saying I
Speaker 6: think there's going to be a ceasefire, thirty thousand people
Speaker 6: have been slaughtered. People are living in famine. They can't
Speaker 6: get medical care, so it can't come soon enough for them.
Speaker 6: And that was really the weight that I picked up
Speaker 6: on when I was in Dearborn. So we get to
Speaker 6: be comfortable and talk about this like these people are
Speaker 6: widgets when they are in fact suffering. And I am
Speaker 6: young enough to remember, colleagues, when Congresswoman Rashida to Leib
Speaker 6: and also Congresswoman Corey Bush called for a ceasefire very
Speaker 6: early on.
Speaker 3: They were called abhorrent.
Speaker 6: Now fast forward to all of these bodies land in
Speaker 6: the wake and people who are living through this every
Speaker 6: single day.
Speaker 7: By the way, there's also been slaughter in say so
Speaker 7: on both sides. No, I'm not on your lecture on
Speaker 7: the problem. What I'm talking about the politics of this tonight.
Speaker 7: How what to you would be a victory if somebody
Speaker 7: was calling for this uncommitted vote, what to you would
Speaker 7: be a victory tonight?
Speaker 3: To get that messages.
Speaker 6: I'm not denying that pain. All I'm saying that at
Speaker 6: a certain point after October to seventh, it becomes clear.
Speaker 6: I mean, you have a right wing prime minister. But
Speaker 6: but you understand, say, I'm not denying anybody's pain. What
Speaker 6: I am saying is that this president and our country
Speaker 6: has the power to say to net and Yahoo, we
Speaker 6: need a permanent cease fire.
Speaker 3: The only time I only wait one more point.
Speaker 6: The only time hostages were released is when we had
Speaker 6: that brief cease fire.
Speaker 5: That is another reason why.
Speaker 8: But also I also have to remind people we had
Speaker 8: to ceasefire prior to October seventh, well, that.
Speaker 4: It was uncomfortable and let me say something in defense
Speaker 4: of Nina Turner there that people might not recognize. So
Speaker 4: in that back and forth there, so when Anderson Cooper
Speaker 4: jumps in, he's like, hold hold on, there's pain on
Speaker 4: both sides here, and then tries to move it back
Speaker 4: to the horse race and he's like, give me your
Speaker 4: view of the politics here, and then she takes it
Speaker 4: back to the pain. Like he gets he gets upset
Speaker 4: with her, like, hey, I told you to take this
Speaker 4: back to the horse race. But if if she hadn't
Speaker 4: done that, you know, she knows that she's constantly getting
Speaker 4: hit as you hostile to Israel and maybe even anti Semitic,
Speaker 4: and that if she didn't respond to that, then that
Speaker 4: would be the thing that people would hit her for.
Speaker 4: So she has to then, so he he kind of
Speaker 4: forces her to respond to that and then gets upset
Speaker 4: with her that when she does, you know, actually respond
Speaker 4: to that.
Speaker 3: But it was interesting to see the panel just.
Speaker 4: So reflexively unable to even kind of think about the
Speaker 4: substance of the issue, like what is why are people
Speaker 4: voting the way that they did?
Speaker 5: Yeah, the I don't we don't need a lecture on
Speaker 5: the problem line is come on, not collegial. So it
Speaker 5: tells me that Anderson Cooper must have and that sells.
Speaker 3: Directed at the voters too in a way.
Speaker 4: It's like like frustrated at the voters that they're like
Speaker 4: going to lecture about like that. And you saw people
Speaker 4: getting saying that, ah, these these voters and who want
Speaker 4: their moral clarity like more, what and what a lot
Speaker 4: of them are demanding is is not actually that much.
Speaker 3: You're just saying, just call for a ceasefire.
Speaker 5: So on this point, we also have an exchange between
Speaker 5: Jake Tapper and Wie Dingle to roll let's watch that.
Speaker 9: And what is it You have been with about sixteen
Speaker 9: percent of the vote in so it's going to be
Speaker 9: a sizeable uncommitted vote. Is this a surprise to you
Speaker 9: in any way? And what do you make of this
Speaker 9: potential impact? Will the White House change course in any way?
Speaker 10: So, first of all, it's not a surprise to me.
Speaker 10: I've been telling people that we have a kind of
Speaker 10: campaign called Listen to Michigan with people that want to
Speaker 10: be listened to. But you know, as everybody started acting
Speaker 10: surprise tonight or were looking at figures, I said to
Speaker 10: multiple people over the course of the last month and
Speaker 10: my district, Washnon County, which has got Ann Arbor and
Speaker 10: Ippsilani and everybody really ignores me when I say Hipsilanti too,
Speaker 10: I bet have more committed votes than dearborn. And as
Speaker 10: you're watching, I'm going.
Speaker 11: To be right and I expected it because it's not
Speaker 11: just the air of American Muslim community. It's young people
Speaker 11: who you know want to be heard, are concerned, have
Speaker 11: the same concerns about They know what Hamas did was
Speaker 11: a pair is it? But they are watching innocent civilians
Speaker 11: be killed in that kind of damage. That that's there.
Speaker 10: We've got to talk about that issue, but we've got
Speaker 10: to talk about a lot of other issues too.
Speaker 5: So actually sounding a little bit like Nina Turner from
Speaker 5: one of the most moderate members, one of the most
Speaker 5: centrist members of the Hou Representatives, now Tapper doesn't shut
Speaker 5: her down like Cooper shud down Anderson Cooper, I think
Speaker 5: because she delivered it in a way that was that
Speaker 5: strikes you know, your average in an anchor as being
Speaker 5: a different angle than listening to Nina Turner, who's someone
Speaker 5: on the left. But if it comes out of the
Speaker 5: mouth of a centrist, it's exactly the point you were making, right,
Speaker 5: she's talking about epseil Ante, she's talking about Ann Arbor.
Speaker 4: She won a bunch of credibility too, because she was
Speaker 4: the person in twenty sixteen who was, you know, most
Speaker 4: loudly yelling at the Hillary Clinton campaign, well Michael Moore,
Speaker 4: telling them that they were misunderstanding what was happening in
Speaker 4: Michigan and that they were on the brink of losing it.
Speaker 4: And she was doing that publicly enough that when it
Speaker 4: actually came to pass, everybody was like, oh yeah, Debbie
Speaker 4: Dinga was saying that. So now when she talks and
Speaker 4: makes an electoral argument, people listen.
Speaker 3: One of the kind of.
Speaker 4: I think hard to swallow pills for people is that
Speaker 4: is the Biden line that comes out where he says, well,
Speaker 4: this is not about electoral politics, this is about doing.
Speaker 3: The right thing.
Speaker 4: It's like, well, that's almost worse like the idea that
Speaker 4: you think that you look at you're handling of this
Speaker 4: assault since October seventh, and you look at the thirty
Speaker 4: thousand dead plus, you know, there's just recent projections that
Speaker 4: you know you're looking at. Even if there's a ceasefire
Speaker 4: right now, you're looking at tens of thousands more. You're
Speaker 4: looking at the Israeli civilians in coordination with the idea
Speaker 4: of setting up bouncy castles and having carnivals outside of
Speaker 4: the fence into Gaza, and at those carnivals protesting and
Speaker 4: blocking aid from getting in while children have now gone
Speaker 4: from the brink of famine, the brink of starvation to
Speaker 4: actually starving to death. And so you look at that
Speaker 4: and you say, you think you're the one who's ignoring
Speaker 4: electoral implications and doing the right thing, then you are
Speaker 4: a moral creature of like such disrepute that we don't
Speaker 4: mind seeing you lose the same to mind, no.
Speaker 3: Matter what the consequences are.
Speaker 5: So another note, I mean again, Debbie Dingle was talking
Speaker 5: about this not being isolated to Dearborn, and that was
Speaker 5: the point that you made, Ryan, which means that this
Speaker 5: translates outside of Michigan. That's a really important.
Speaker 4: They're moving to Minnesota, like Minnesota's next, and you're going
Speaker 4: to see people pushing to vote uncommitted in or whatever.
Speaker 4: I don't know the exact what you can vote on
Speaker 4: the ballot. Michigan has the uncommitted line, but in Minnesota
Speaker 4: they're going to be pushing for something similar. You know,
Speaker 4: New Hampshire they've said, right and cease fire. You know
Speaker 4: that you have to do something different in every state
Speaker 4: because we've got these federated electoral systems.
Speaker 5: So literally, as we were talking, one of the candidates
Speaker 5: that we mentioned here, someone who got twenty two thousand
Speaker 5: votes in Michigan last night, unsuspended her campaign. And that
Speaker 5: would be Marianne Williamson. Again, this happened as we were
Speaker 5: discussing this on air and taping this very segment. Let's
Speaker 5: take a listen to what Marion had to say.
Speaker 1: Hey, I have an important announcement to make as of today,
Speaker 1: I am unsuspending my campaign.
Speaker 10: For the presidency of the United States.
Speaker 5: I had suspended it because I was losing the horse race.
Speaker 1: But something so much more important than the horse race
Speaker 1: is at stake here and we must respond.
Speaker 5: Right, Marion Williamson unsuspending her campaign. The uncommitted movement now
Speaker 5: with a little bit of momentum going to like you said, Minnesota,
Speaker 5: California's got a primary coming up. We're reeling right into
Speaker 5: We're rolling right into Super Tuesday. It looks like Biden
Speaker 5: might be facing a seriously mobilized protest volte movement in
Speaker 5: this primary.
Speaker 4: Now, yes, I mean across the Democratic Party. The opposition
Speaker 4: to his unconditional support for Israel's war effort is overwhelming.
Speaker 4: There was a Paul recently that showed that there's double
Speaker 4: digit opposition from Jewish Democrats and significant double digit now
Speaker 4: like ten or twelve, I don't remember the exact number,
Speaker 4: but it's significant O and that stretches across the board.
Speaker 4: There's basically no demographic in the Democratic coalition that supports
Speaker 4: what Biden is doing, and so they're going to be
Speaker 4: looking for any channel to express that opposition.
Speaker 5: And just before we leave this block, I know we
Speaker 5: didn't cover much Trump Haley ground because basically the results
Speaker 5: are really similar to what people expected. So sixty eight
Speaker 5: to twenty seven. Again, that's the breakdown. There was a
Speaker 5: five thirty.
Speaker 4: Eight polling out five percent uncommitted, right, I'm doing my
Speaker 4: math right, it's.
Speaker 5: Somewhere around it. But there's a and Nicki Hilly, to
Speaker 5: your point, is kind of a protest vote to Donald Trump.
Speaker 5: There's not a lot of people who are like I
Speaker 5: just love Nikki Haley. There's some people there Democrats that
Speaker 5: love there's some yeah, exactly exactly, but again, There was
Speaker 5: a five thirty eight average that I saw getting a
Speaker 5: little bit of attraction on the internet last night, and
Speaker 5: I went and looked at it. It was like a
Speaker 5: few polls over the course in the last couple of months,
Speaker 5: and so Trump did underperform that by about ten points.
Speaker 5: It had him in the mid to high seventies, and
Speaker 5: again he.
Speaker 3: Ended up six pattern right, he keeps under performing his polls.
Speaker 5: He keeps underperforming, although I don't necessarily know that that's
Speaker 5: a huge Again, when the polls are in state levels.
Speaker 5: I mean, polls just aren't always If you have a
Speaker 5: polling average of a couple polls in Michigan, I don't
Speaker 5: know what that means, but it's still obviously the quote
Speaker 5: that I wanted to read from this acxios report was
Speaker 5: about Nikki Haley. They said, but a sizable trunk Nikki
Speaker 5: Haley's performance so again twenty seven percent. And Nicki Haley,
Speaker 5: when she was in South Carolina, her home state that
Speaker 5: she poured way more money into than Donald Trump poured
Speaker 5: into South Carolina, she actually outspent round of Santis and
Speaker 5: Trump in Iowa. She wildly outspent Donald Trump in New Hampshire.
Speaker 5: So she's pouring a lot of money into these states,
Speaker 5: getting thirty forty percent of the vote. Again, we saw
Speaker 5: that happen last night. Significant in a place where Donald
Speaker 5: Trump was always felt at home. It's done a lot
Speaker 5: of stuff in Michigan. Axios says that the vote for
Speaker 5: Nicki Haley shows that quote, but a sizable chunk of
Speaker 5: Republican voters may never be on board with Donald Trump. Yeah,
Speaker 5: it's twenty twenty four. We've known that since twenty fifteen.
Speaker 5: We've seen it again since twenty sixteen. We saw it
Speaker 5: in twenty eighteen, we sat in twenty twenty, we signed
Speaker 5: in twenty twenty two. We did not need Nikki Haley
Speaker 5: coming at twenty seven percent in Michigan to show that
Speaker 5: a sizable chunk of Republican voters may never be on
Speaker 5: board with Donald Trump. But thank you Mike Allen for
Speaker 5: putting that out.
Speaker 4: But meanwhile, an interesting New Yugov Economist poll finds that
Speaker 4: he's picked up sizeable ground basically since Biden was sworn in. Now,
Speaker 4: we could put this tweet from Adam Carlson up here,
Speaker 4: but well, you have to remember that this represents sort
Speaker 4: of a nator of Trump support. Like this is the
Speaker 4: moment this we're talking like just a little bit after
Speaker 4: January sixth, where the guy's mob ransacked the capitol and
Speaker 4: he's like facing impeachment. So this bottoming out, He's seen
Speaker 4: a forty five point gain among black voters, a forty
Speaker 4: point gain among people eighteen to twenty nine, let's go
Speaker 4: back to that in a second. Interestingly, a twenty seven
Speaker 4: percent gain among people who make more than one hundred
Speaker 4: thousand dollars modern he's doing. And then he's picked up
Speaker 4: about a fifth of the electorate with basically everybody else,
Speaker 4: you know, moderates people letting less than fifty percent, even
Speaker 4: liberals and Democrats. That comes, I think from how you know,
Speaker 4: he was down in probably single digits among some among
Speaker 4: some of those liberals and Democrats pulling.
Speaker 5: Finding the shifts in black voters, young voters, and Hispanic
Speaker 5: voters tirty seventy four terrify Joe Biden. And another thing
Speaker 5: I just want to point out, because you won't hear
Speaker 5: it in the corporate press, is that this is just
Speaker 5: about Donald Trump. And I'm not particularly a fan of
Speaker 5: Donald Trump, nor are most people that work in journalism professionally.
Speaker 5: But this is only happening with Donald Trump. This would
Speaker 5: you would not see these numbers with Nikki Haley. You
Speaker 5: would not see these numbers with other Republican candidates. For
Speaker 5: some reason, Donald Trump is making inroads with black voters,
Speaker 5: young voters, and Hispanic voters that Republicans who put out
Speaker 5: in twenty twelve their RNC autopsy saying, the only way
Speaker 5: that we're going to win Hispanic voters is by moderating
Speaker 5: on immigration. The only way we're going to win young
Speaker 5: voters is by moderating on culture war issues. For some reason,
Speaker 5: Donald Trump is making inroads with those voting blocks that
Speaker 5: other Republicans are not, and other Republicans have never figured
Speaker 5: out how to do it. And again, so much of
Speaker 5: this is just like unique to Donald Trump, Donald Trump.
Speaker 5: You can't really replicate Donald Trump and Doug Mastriano or
Speaker 5: even in Rond De Santis, as we've seen many different
Speaker 5: times play out with many different candidates. So it's not
Speaker 5: like this is some boon of the Republican Party. I think,
Speaker 5: you know, it would be easy to read these numbers
Speaker 5: and say, wow, you know, Donald Trump, He's the future
Speaker 5: of the Republican Party. Republican Party is now the party
Speaker 5: of the young and Hispanics and the working class. It
Speaker 5: doesn't translate to other Republicans, but it is something that
Speaker 5: Donald Trump is doing, and these are huge gains in
Speaker 5: ways that should definitely terrify Joe Biden. We can put
Speaker 5: b two up on the screen here. This is another
Speaker 5: one of the polls. This is from an Axios poll.
Speaker 5: They found again gen Z millennial voters Kida Biden's twenty
Speaker 5: twenty victory. They turned out in huge numbers, favored him
Speaker 5: by twenty points back in twenty twenty. His support for Israel,
Speaker 5: biden support for Israel is hurting him with young voters.
Speaker 5: Biden got fifty two percent to Trump's forty eight percent
Speaker 5: in a new Axios gen Lab survey of voters between
Speaker 5: the ages of eighteen and thirty four. Forty nine percent
Speaker 5: of eighteen to twenty nine year old supported Trump, compared
Speaker 5: with forty three percent for Biden in a New York
Speaker 5: Times Sienna College poll. So that's Axios in New York
Speaker 5: Times finding Donald Trump making huge, huge inroads on Joe
Speaker 5: Biden with young voters in the midst of the October
Speaker 5: seventh fallout. And Ryan another part of this that's interesting
Speaker 5: is that's not just people saying neither, that's people actually gravitating.
Speaker 3: Forms Donald Trump.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And there was a vision in twenty twenty two
Speaker 4: of a Democratic coalition that would consist of young people,
Speaker 4: then people with college degrees, people of color that could
Speaker 4: get that could that was broadly behind a progressive agenda
Speaker 4: that if if with enough a depth to kind of
Speaker 4: work inside the coalition, could be weaponized toward a kind
Speaker 4: of working class agenda, child tax credits, other support for
Speaker 4: the working class, pro union stuff, that turns the Democratic
Speaker 4: Coalition back into a genuinely progressive force.
Speaker 3: Like you.
Speaker 4: They only won, say Georgia, for instance, because of the
Speaker 4: overwhelming support from voters of color and young people, and
Speaker 4: there's a huge overlap between those two because the younger
Speaker 4: generation is the most most diverse that we've had. That
Speaker 4: that was a kind of hopeful vision of a Democratic
Speaker 4: party that could actually do something good for everyday people
Speaker 4: around the country. Uh, they threw that all away with
Speaker 4: over support, unconditional support of this genocide in Gaza, And
Speaker 4: for a prime minister in Benjamin Netanyahu whose mission is
Speaker 4: to see Biden lose, it's absolutely just an incredible lack
Speaker 4: of concern for their own electoral kind of success, absolutely
Speaker 4: mind blowing. And so now you with Trump, even with
Speaker 4: young people, that blows up that that potential coalition that
Speaker 4: they had, unless you can get that back, which is
Speaker 4: possible because, like you said, without Trump, those young people
Speaker 4: are like these guys, creeps and freaks. And we're actually
Speaker 4: going to talk about that pretty soon. Yes, so it
Speaker 4: could come back, but if you don't have that, if
Speaker 4: you if you don't, because in order to win young
Speaker 4: people and also in order to win a lot of
Speaker 4: black voters, you need policies they are going to benefit
Speaker 4: the kind of working class and progressive people kind of generally.
Speaker 4: If you're not going for young people, then you're just
Speaker 4: you know, playing Clintonian triangulation games and just trying to
Speaker 4: you know, win fifty point one percent by picking off
Speaker 4: you know, center right voters. And that's not a coalition
Speaker 4: that certainly gets me excited.
Speaker 5: So we saw Trump make huge in roads with in
Speaker 5: the Rio Grand Valley, and Tager has talked about this
Speaker 5: Texas guy, so he understands Texas politics. But Jhnald Trump's
Speaker 5: margins with Hispanic voters in the rear Grand Valley and
Speaker 5: taxes were very, very important to how close he came
Speaker 5: to defeating Joe Biden back in twenty twenty. I mean,
Speaker 5: these margins in certain states are just absolutely critical, especially
Speaker 5: the battleground states in a place exactly like Michigan. But
Speaker 5: these that's why this forty five percent jump again, that
Speaker 5: is a very important point. It's from February of twenty
Speaker 5: twenty one until now, so absolute low point for Donald Trump.
Speaker 5: But it's a forty five point jump, you know, not
Speaker 5: a five point jump ten point Trump forty five point jump.
Speaker 5: So it's significant no matter what. Forty with people aged
Speaker 5: eighteen to twenty nine, twenty seven, with Hispanic voters, that's
Speaker 5: a huge deal. That's a five alarm fire type deal.
Speaker 5: That's like the media is even covering this and they
Speaker 5: don't like Donald Trump, but like it should be an
Speaker 5: even bigger story given how huge these advantages are. Again
Speaker 5: for Republicans, though, the Rio Grand Valley is a great example.
Speaker 5: Mayra Flores was and she was redistricted, but was one
Speaker 5: of those Hispanic candidates. She was elected to Congress. I
Speaker 5: think she was elected in twenty twenty and then lost
Speaker 5: again in twenty twenty two. But either way, with the redistricting,
Speaker 5: she ended up losing her seat, and some of the
Speaker 5: candidates done in the Rio Grand Valley that Kevin McCarthy
Speaker 5: kind of hat and pick to win did not win.
Speaker 5: There's something when Donald Trump is not on the ballot
Speaker 5: that doesn't translate for Republican voters necessarily with those same
Speaker 5: groups that have come to really like Donald Trump, and
Speaker 5: the Republican Party keeps trying to push Donald Trump away.
Speaker 5: That was one of his issues with Ronald McDaniel is
Speaker 5: that she just didn't kind of get Trump as am.
Speaker 5: She didn't want to necessarily have the RNC being used
Speaker 5: in ways that were helpful in the legal battle sphere.
Speaker 5: I mean, money is fungible, and I think they're not
Speaker 5: technically allowed to use. He can't use campaign funds for
Speaker 5: paying off the legal battles, so what the RNC can
Speaker 5: do for the campaign then becomes a big question. But
Speaker 5: the point is establishment Republicans in Washington are still very
Speaker 5: uncomfortable with Donald Trump. But Donald Trump has a political
Speaker 5: instincts that resonate with people, and you know, eight years later,
Speaker 5: Republicans still can't quite grapple with that in a way
Speaker 5: that translates to other candidates. Ryan Trump right away came
Speaker 5: out and said we're protecting IVF. That's a second point
Speaker 5: of this block that we want to get to, because
Speaker 5: when you're looking at Donald Trump specifically making gains with
Speaker 5: young voters, with people who consider themselves liberal, he's up twenty.
Speaker 5: He has a twenty point bump from February of twenty
Speaker 5: twenty one that can go out the door with other
Speaker 5: Republican candidates. Donald Trump, though, came out right away saying.
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is and this I think is the key
Speaker 4: problem for the Republican coalition because the one thing that
Speaker 4: kind of Trump and the anti Trump Republican establishment agree
Speaker 4: on is that a lot of the kind of Republican
Speaker 4: cultural positions are terrible for them in general elections. Yes,
Speaker 4: and probably I probably nothing more so than the than
Speaker 4: the IVF issue, right right, I mean, which is what's
Speaker 4: within the sphere of abortion rights.
Speaker 3: But it's probably even even worse for them.
Speaker 5: I yes, significantly.
Speaker 4: But so let's so today the Senate is going to
Speaker 4: Democrats in the Senate, Tammy Duckworth something else and Patty
Speaker 4: Murray are going to try to force a vote on
Speaker 4: the Senate floor that tries to put Republicans on record
Speaker 4: that will say you could put this element up here,
Speaker 4: uh that will say I v F is protected on
Speaker 4: a on a federal level. This flows out of the
Speaker 4: kind of shocking to the public Alabama Supreme Court decision
Speaker 4: that declared that embryos uh that have been produced through
Speaker 4: the IVF process are children, uh and through through the
Speaker 4: entire kind of Alabama I v F system into into
Speaker 4: complete chaos. All all of the people who have been
Speaker 4: uh you know, hoping and praying uh that they're finally
Speaker 4: going to have a chance to uh to to raise
Speaker 4: children and spending like enormous amounts of money, like you know,
Speaker 4: taking this taking you know, a lot of people do
Speaker 4: this on credit uh and and otherwise making extraordinary sacrifices
Speaker 4: because they want to they want to build a nuclear family.
Speaker 4: Are now all of a sudden told that.
Speaker 3: It's not happening.
Speaker 4: Now Alabama's is trying to give some type of community
Speaker 4: legal shield to doctors. But walk us through and actually
Speaker 4: tell us a little bit about how big a part
Speaker 4: of the kind of pro life movement is this IVF
Speaker 4: faction that wants to go all the way to the
Speaker 4: wall for this.
Speaker 5: So in pro life circles you basically never hear this
Speaker 5: talked about. It it's not in a top of mind issue,
Speaker 5: especially after Dobbs. It's a lot of conversations just about
Speaker 5: states and abortion in particular. Although if you believe, and
Speaker 5: Crystal and I talked about this and actually really kind
Speaker 5: of debated it a little bit last week. If you
Speaker 5: believe that, you know, conception is the moment of that
Speaker 5: life begins. Obviously, most people in pro life circles push
Speaker 5: comes to shove, end up on that side of the
Speaker 5: myself included to end up on side of that. But
Speaker 5: there are other states. I think Louisiana is one of
Speaker 5: the examples that have protections for embryos that have not
Speaker 5: upended the entire IVF system in this way that I mean,
Speaker 5: the politics of it are bad, and we'll get to
Speaker 5: this in a bit, but the morality of it is awful.
Speaker 5: I mean, NPR profiled a woman who is now like,
Speaker 5: my embryos are at this clinic, but the clinic will
Speaker 5: not give me my embryos, and the clinic can't do
Speaker 5: anything with my fertilized embryos. It's just heart wrenching. People's
Speaker 5: hopes and dreams and livelihoods are on the line because
Speaker 5: of a ping ponging sort of legal question.
Speaker 4: It's awful because you end up losing the moral thread there.
Speaker 4: It feels like, if the purpose is life and family,
Speaker 4: just leaving an embryo in a freezer indefinitely, yeah, doesn't
Speaker 4: seem to even be kind of in service of their own.
Speaker 5: No, no, not at all. Yeah. I think that's a
Speaker 5: great point. And so Tammy Duckworth picked up on the
Speaker 5: politics of the Donald Trump right away, so protecting it.
Speaker 5: But Tammy Duckworth and Democrats immediately, there's a lot of
Speaker 5: headlines that always say Republicans pounce whenever there's a politically
Speaker 5: convenient issue for them. Well, Democrats definitely pounce this time.
Speaker 5: Let's listen to Senator Duckworth, whose children, by the way,
Speaker 5: were born by Ivah.
Speaker 1: One in four married women have difficulty getting pregnant or
Speaker 1: carrying a pregnancy to term. One in four. That doesn't
Speaker 1: even include single individuals and other families also trying to conceive. So,
Speaker 1: but to my Republican colleagues, please think about how many
Speaker 1: that one in four represents in your state. Women willing
Speaker 1: to go through expensive, painful treatsments just for a chance
Speaker 1: to experience the most banal moments of parenthood. Just to
Speaker 1: have a newborn to swaddle, a toddler whose shoes that
Speaker 1: needed to be tied. And if you believe that they
Speaker 1: should have the right to be called mom without also
Speaker 1: being called a criminal, then all you have to do
Speaker 1: to prove it is help us pass this should be
Speaker 1: obvious legislation, because in this nightmarriage moment, it's nowhere near
Speaker 1: enough to send out a vaguely worded tweet suggesting that
Speaker 1: you care about women's rights despite a voting record to
Speaker 1: the absolute contrary. Instead, if you truly care about the
Speaker 1: sanctity of families, if you're genuinely, actually honestly interested in
Speaker 1: protecting IVF, then you need to show it by not
Speaker 1: blocking this bill on the floor tomorrow.
Speaker 5: It's that simple. And she said that because we can
Speaker 5: put this next element up on the screen. This is
Speaker 5: from Newsweek. It's a headline that says Republicans call Alabama
Speaker 5: IVF ruling scary. And if you're watching this, you see
Speaker 5: the picture of Matt Gates up on the screen. Because
Speaker 5: Matt Gates is one of the Republicans who came out
Speaker 5: right away and said nope, Republicans should be protecting IVF.
Speaker 5: He said there was something quote totally wrong about the situation.
Speaker 5: You also had Byron Donald's, another Freedom Caucus guy, come
Speaker 5: out in that direction. And then some establishment people like
Speaker 5: Christan Nunow, even Tommy Talberville again who is seen as
Speaker 5: like now a pro life champion based on his stand
Speaker 5: that we covered a lot here last year on Pentagon
Speaker 5: and abortion.
Speaker 4: Sort even rebels, even Dubberville, and so is if this
Speaker 4: gets to the floor, will this be a thing where
Speaker 4: Republicans just kind of cave and like it gets unanimous support.
Speaker 5: I don't know, because Duckworth did something really clever. It's
Speaker 5: basically like she's basically saying it would establish a federal
Speaker 5: right to IVF and other fertility treatments that are risk
Speaker 5: in the post row era. That's what, according to the Hill,
Speaker 5: is on the line in the bill that she and
Speaker 5: Patty Murray puts the floor. So if it's a bill
Speaker 5: with really sweeping implications that Republicans don't necessarily want to
Speaker 5: sign on to at a federal level, then she might
Speaker 5: have a bunch of Republicans. And you heard that in
Speaker 5: her quote at the end of the statement there. She
Speaker 5: might have a bunch of Republicans in a real pickle
Speaker 5: voting against a bill that they.
Speaker 4: Feel as what are the sweeping kind of protections, like
Speaker 4: it would undermine Louisiana's.
Speaker 5: Maybe yeah, right, so like maybe if and I'm not
Speaker 5: saying that that's the right interpretation of it, but you
Speaker 5: could see how like legally, Republican interpretations of a federal
Speaker 5: right to IVF might yeah, exactly, like go after certain
Speaker 5: state protections or whatever, or it might just be something
Speaker 5: that has implications for other abortion legislation. Because if you're
Speaker 5: like birth control legislation, some really like I don't know.
Speaker 3: Where they get even more tangled up.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because then they're like, well, I would love to
Speaker 4: support this protection of IVF, but I'm worried it might
Speaker 4: protect birth control, and then voters like, well, wait a minute,
Speaker 4: you're seriously against earth control too, exactly. And Speaker Mike
Speaker 4: Johnson's response to this, I think was indicative of the
Speaker 4: problems that Republicans have, where he immediately came out and
Speaker 4: was like this, this is this is bad what the
Speaker 4: Alabama Supreme Court did. And then people are immediately like,
Speaker 4: you sponsored a bill that would basically do this, yes,
Speaker 4: and it feels like the Republican implicit responses Yeah, but
Speaker 4: I just did that for political purposes, like I don't
Speaker 4: actually intend that to become law. And then the public
Speaker 4: is like, well, we kind of heard you say that
Speaker 4: for like fifty years with Roe v. Way, and we
Speaker 4: sort of were lulled into complacency, and then all of
Speaker 4: a sudden you overturn Roe v.
Speaker 3: Wade. So this like, well, this is just cynicism that
Speaker 3: we're doing here.
Speaker 4: We wouldn't actually do this. It doesn't work. After they
Speaker 4: overturned Row, Well.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and again you have Tammy Duckworth saying if you're serious,
Speaker 5: you need to vote in favor of this bill, and
Speaker 5: so I think, again, yeah, that's what Democrats have learned
Speaker 5: is like the big political lesson post Row is to
Speaker 5: tell Republicans to put their money where their mouth is
Speaker 5: if they're going to come out in all of these things.
Speaker 5: So I was on Megan Kelly show this week, and
Speaker 5: among the sort of Republican politicians that we just discussed,
Speaker 5: Megan's a huge supporter of IVF. And again, you know,
Speaker 5: I've talked to debated with Crystal about this and others.
Speaker 5: I have a wildly unpopular position on this, but it's
Speaker 5: just sort of the logical consistency if you believe that
Speaker 5: life begins a conception. This is where the problem for
Speaker 5: Republican cross or no, not at all, And that's that's
Speaker 5: what the clip actually gets to. So let's roll the conversation.
Speaker 5: Megan gets into how I'm popular, She thinks this is
Speaker 5: going to be for Republicans, dangerous to this for Republicans,
Speaker 5: and then pushes me on one thing as well.
Speaker 12: There is a huge difference between looking at a woman
Speaker 12: and saying you do not have the right to kill
Speaker 12: your own child and saying to her you do not
Speaker 12: have the right to have your own child. That is
Speaker 12: just a complete, completely different message politically, morally, religiously, take
Speaker 12: your pick, and the latter's not going to fly. It's
Speaker 12: not going to fly with Republicans. I'm not going to
Speaker 12: fly with the very group that Trump is trying to
Speaker 12: win over, as we discussed earlier, in particular young moderate women, right,
Speaker 12: that's who he needs to win. So he took the
Speaker 12: right position on this before we go, Can you just
Speaker 12: can you expand on what you're saying, Emily, because it's
Speaker 12: been a long while. You know, my youngest child is
Speaker 12: now ten, so I haven't really been following the latest
Speaker 12: IVF developments, But what is the more moral, humane way
Speaker 12: of doing it that you're referring to.
Speaker 5: So targeted, Yeah, like what you were saying about to
Speaker 5: minimize situations where people have extra embryos that they have
Speaker 5: to make decisions.
Speaker 12: On, So like just put the number of eggs in
Speaker 12: the petri dish that you're willing to have, like it's
Speaker 12: really the eggs that will control the number of children.
Speaker 5: Right right, right right, and then figuring out what these
Speaker 5: clinics do with extra eggs too. I think that's a big, big, big,
Speaker 5: big legal question as well, because now we have people
Speaker 5: like the woman on the daily caught in the lurch
Speaker 5: when a court decision comes down. So as the stuff
Speaker 5: sort of flip flops or ping pongs through the legal system,
Speaker 5: you don't have people's lives sort of caught in the balance,
Speaker 5: And there should be some way that there's there's clarity
Speaker 5: so people aren't in those situations. So Ryan Megan is
Speaker 5: picking up on an important point which is similar to
Speaker 5: what Tammy duckworth, so that you should have the right
Speaker 5: to have your own child. The problem with the way
Speaker 5: that I believe IVF should be done is that it's
Speaker 5: extremely expensive to do that. It is basically unfeasible for
Speaker 5: a lot of people. So I don't pretend that that's
Speaker 5: like an easy answer to the question, but I think,
Speaker 5: you know, Republicans are starting to realize post row how
Speaker 5: bad the environment is for them, especially they can pointed
Speaker 5: out young women. Probably another reason Tammy Duckworth and Patty
Speaker 5: Murray jumped on this right away, because you know, Donald
Speaker 5: Trump is saying one thing about IVF, but down ballot
Speaker 5: candidates that can get really tough.
Speaker 4: For them, right, And because the problems are many, it's
Speaker 4: you know, it's not just money, it's also time.
Speaker 3: You know, you're you're getting older every single month.
Speaker 4: Yes, And one reason that they do you know, more
Speaker 4: than the more than one is so that one takes, yes,
Speaker 4: sometimes six take, and you know that could be fatal
Speaker 4: for a woman trying to carry that. The other problem
Speaker 4: comes with the Some of it is around genetics, like
Speaker 4: there might be some genetic problems in the family that
Speaker 4: would that would create practically an unviable pregnancy, and so
Speaker 4: they can then create an embryo and genetically test and
Speaker 4: make sure, okay, it did not get that gene and
Speaker 4: so therefore, you know, we're not going to use this one,
Speaker 4: because that could you know, that just simply won't work.
Speaker 4: Now you can imagine where you can get into some
Speaker 4: ethical complications where then you start to do genetic engineering.
Speaker 4: But that's not that's not what's going on, or or
Speaker 4: or unless the government wants to come in and say,
Speaker 4: like this is like we're gonna we're gonna dictate exactly
Speaker 4: how this, how this goes down.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 4: And the point that she made about the painful nature
Speaker 4: of it, I think is also important to underscore. For
Speaker 4: some reason, the medical community, uh, when it comes to
Speaker 4: women just can't figure out ways to do these procedures,
Speaker 4: you know, without them being extraordinarily painful. And so every
Speaker 4: time that a woman tries this and fails, they went
Speaker 4: through all of that pain coupled within this hope, coupled
Speaker 4: within the heartbreak of it not working, followed up by oh,
Speaker 4: you're back in for this like excruciatingly painful process, something
Speaker 4: that I imagined, like most men like would never be
Speaker 4: able to even like remotely handle. And then Snell told, oh,
Speaker 4: you can only do one again, because the Republicans don't
Speaker 4: want you to do.
Speaker 3: More than one.
Speaker 4: You get your hopes up again, your heart breaks again,
Speaker 4: you're back in the painful situation.
Speaker 5: And time, Like you said, you're back at square one,
Speaker 5: but your a year further.
Speaker 4: Ahead and lost one hundred thousand dollars to this now
Speaker 4: and you finance that now.
Speaker 5: What and the physical toll in your body?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Absolutely, no, I don't disagree with that at all. And
Speaker 5: just it's what's happening to people, the uncertainty that people
Speaker 5: in Alabama are dealing with right now. Like again MPR
Speaker 5: profile of this woman who's fertilize embryos are in a clinic,
Speaker 5: and you know, if you believe that that's life, that's human.
Speaker 3: Life, it feels like kidnapping.
Speaker 4: Christopher Hitchins, I'm sure it feels a woman like that,
Speaker 4: her kid, like her future children have been kidnapped.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I would commend to everybody. There was a great
Speaker 5: Christopher Hitchins say that he wrote in two thousand and
Speaker 5: three for Vanity Fair, just sort of talking about the
Speaker 5: implications of technology and the left sort of idea about
Speaker 5: when life does begin and the kind of difficult places
Speaker 5: that I can take us, that that can take us to.
Speaker 5: These are questions that are worth thinking about. But it's
Speaker 5: in Alabama right now. There are a lot of people
Speaker 5: who are in dire straits and just desperately worried about
Speaker 5: these you know, these lives from my perspective at least
Speaker 5: that and from their perspective. Again, the woman from NPR said,
Speaker 5: those are it feels like a death in the family.
Speaker 5: So it's yeah, it's awful and there needs to be
Speaker 5: solutions to it. And the politics of this are absolutely
Speaker 5: brutal for Republicans.
Speaker 4: Let's talk about the ongoing ceasefire negotiations over in the
Speaker 4: Middle East. President Biden kind of supplanted himself as one
Speaker 4: of the most, if not the most hated presidents in
Speaker 4: the Middle East by announcing that there was going to
Speaker 4: be a ceasefire while licking an ice cream cone, an
Speaker 4: image that will live in infamy for decades to come.
Speaker 4: Worse still, it seems like it wasn't even true that
Speaker 4: he may have been doing this on Monday, right before
Speaker 4: Michigan was supposed to vote, to try to depress the
Speaker 4: uncommitted vote. Is a thought almost kind of too cynical
Speaker 4: to even contemplate. I'm going to tell myself that it
Speaker 4: was just his addled mind that allowed him to kind
Speaker 4: of lie about this, or his spokesperson John Kirby was
Speaker 4: lying one or the other. Let's play John Kirby's response
Speaker 4: to Biden's claim that he expected a ceasefire by this
Speaker 4: coming Monday.
Speaker 2: Just a full one.
Speaker 13: We just previous questioned, though, we've learned, according to an
Speaker 13: Israeli source, that Yaku was quite surprised by the President's
Speaker 13: comments about his expectations that there would be a ceasefire
Speaker 13: by Monday. So that doesn't vote a lot of optimism
Speaker 13: that one of the key parties was surprised by that timeline.
Speaker 13: The President said, so why did he say Monday?
Speaker 14: I can't speak for the surprise that foreign leaders have
Speaker 14: or don't have regard to things that we're saying. The
Speaker 14: President talked to y'all after staying completely up to speed,
Speaker 14: and he has been kept up to speed on how
Speaker 14: these negotiations are going, and he shared with you some context,
Speaker 14: and he certainly shared with you his optimism that.
Speaker 5: We can get there in hopefully a short order. Right.
Speaker 5: Can I just say how weird it is that he
Speaker 5: felt the need to confirm that the President has stayed
Speaker 5: quote completely up to speed on the negotiations.
Speaker 4: That's a strange thing to say, and then lied if
Speaker 4: that's what Kirby is saying. So, yeah, he was up
Speaker 4: to speed on the negotiations, but then he said something
Speaker 4: that shocked the people who are actually engaged in the negotiations.
Speaker 5: But it almost felt like a tell like, oh, like
Speaker 5: they're we're keeping them in the loop. Yeah, it's weird.
Speaker 4: So Matt Miller over the State Department was also asked
Speaker 4: about this.
Speaker 3: Let's roll his response.
Speaker 15: Back up the assertion that you just made in response
Speaker 15: to one of the questions that we're closer today than
Speaker 15: we were yesterday.
Speaker 16: Just that we continue negotiations and I can't Unfortunately.
Speaker 15: What.
Speaker 3: They haven't broken down is that why.
Speaker 16: We I am so I can't really answer that without
Speaker 16: getting into the underlying substance of the negotiations. But the
Speaker 16: talks continue and we think we continue to make progress.
Speaker 16: But I'm well, you said we think we continue to
Speaker 16: make progress. That's that is the basis of my state.
Speaker 3: That we are closer today than continuing.
Speaker 16: Continuing to make progress.
Speaker 3: There isn't anything you can give to us now, or
Speaker 3: present to us or tell us that would actually back
Speaker 3: up the idea that I that I cease fire slash.
Speaker 4: Hot, I it is closer today than it was yesterday.
Speaker 16: I can never show you definitive progress and talks that
Speaker 16: by their very nature are secret.
Speaker 4: I mean, okay, I get the logical point he's making
Speaker 4: that there's secret talks, he's not going to say anything
Speaker 4: about them, and so therefore he can't back up what
Speaker 4: he's saying there. But the context is that the President
Speaker 4: of the United States just said that he expects to
Speaker 4: seize fire on a very specific time frame one week
Speaker 4: from the day that he said it, and then he
Speaker 4: had specifically said we're closer today than we were yesterday.
Speaker 3: So those are very reasonable questions.
Speaker 4: Okay, great, why like he tells anything, because we're hearing
Speaker 4: from sources in Helmas and from sources in the Israeli
Speaker 4: government that they're.
Speaker 3: Not very close at all.
Speaker 4: Katari's too, and they're saying there's not remotely close.
Speaker 3: So anyway, there you go. That's what the American government
Speaker 3: is going to share with us.
Speaker 5: And again that's why I think it's really noteworthy that
Speaker 5: Kirby said the President has been quote up to speed,
Speaker 5: kept up to speed in the negotiations, because it actually
Speaker 5: seems like Biden and I know this is fraud, but
Speaker 5: it seems like Biden might not have been up to speed.
Speaker 5: And so when they say that he's been kept up
Speaker 5: to speed, that's sort of the tell. They're like projecting
Speaker 5: what they want to the opposite of what the truth is,
Speaker 5: to say he's he's totally up to speed. Maybe he's
Speaker 5: not up to speed because he's not lucid enough to
Speaker 5: be a significant part of these negotiations.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Unfortunately, everything we keep hearing is that he is,
Speaker 4: that Biden is driving this policy.
Speaker 5: Or Biden's lieutenants understand the Biden policy well enough to
Speaker 5: drive it for him.
Speaker 3: I would I don't know you would?
Speaker 4: You would hope that, I mean, And maybe that represents
Speaker 4: a lack of lucidity, that that Biden is just so
Speaker 4: kind of locked into his ideological, unconditioned Israel that he's
Speaker 4: unable to absorb new inputs.
Speaker 5: Even when people are seeing like this five alarm fire
Speaker 5: in Michigan, Like you have to, you have to start
Speaker 5: reconciling your mister two state solution decade, a two state
Speaker 5: solution with what Natanyahu is doing as mister one state solution.
Speaker 4: It's wrecking you and he's not He's changing nothing, Like
Speaker 4: he went on Seth Myers the other day, right and
Speaker 4: Myers presses him on this. Myers, who's Jewish American by
Speaker 4: the way, Biden responds by saying, I'm a Zionist.
Speaker 3: You don't have to be Jewish to be a Zionist.
Speaker 4: And I believe that no Jew in the world is
Speaker 4: safe without Israel. Talking to a Jewish American like telling
Speaker 4: him that he's incapable of keeping Seth Meyers safe in
Speaker 4: his own country.
Speaker 3: What a failure on his part.
Speaker 4: If that's true, If there are so many Nazis running
Speaker 4: rampant in this country, then go do your job and
Speaker 4: make this country safe for everyone. The idea that you
Speaker 4: can outsource your job as American president to keep all
Speaker 4: Americans safe by saying, well, we've got some other country.
Speaker 4: Can you imagine if he said, no, no Nigerian is
Speaker 4: safe here in the United States, it's without Nigeria.
Speaker 3: They'd be like, uh, well, how about.
Speaker 4: Uh, you keep the Nigerians in the United States safe.
Speaker 4: Now that's a nationality question rather than a religion question.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 4: But the entire premise of it is just so convoluted
Speaker 4: that this is.
Speaker 5: One of the other reasons that I read these leaks
Speaker 5: in a different way coming from the right than people
Speaker 5: on the left, because I do think it's a frustration.
Speaker 5: We know that like Biden's own staff is kind of
Speaker 5: split on this, that there's some people that are hardcore
Speaker 5: with him on that question of Zionism and the two
Speaker 5: state solution, when there are other people in the administration
Speaker 5: that are less comfortable with that. Karine Jean Pierre herself
Speaker 5: wrote an op ed about the problems with that. What
Speaker 5: was this like three years ago? I think it was
Speaker 5: a tough post. So, I mean, these these divides exist in.
Speaker 3: The Oh, it was the Newsweek.
Speaker 5: That's like, there you go, But actually we have another
Speaker 5: clip of Matt Miller getting press press on some of
Speaker 5: these problems for the administration. We can roll up there.
Speaker 15: Then now at least six document instances depicting members of
Speaker 15: the IDF displaying or rifling through women's underwear, and of
Speaker 15: course that's just on camera. Soldiers as we've seen stripped
Speaker 15: and tortured Palestinians. There have been a reported history of
Speaker 15: soldiers abusing children that they've detained even before October seventh,
Speaker 15: And of course, you know, invoicate investigations need to be pursued.
Speaker 3: It's still given.
Speaker 15: You know, although we've seen from Israeli forces. Just up
Speaker 15: to this point, what's the US government doing in response? Now,
Speaker 15: given the UN experts' alarm at credible allegations of human
Speaker 15: rights violations and sexual violence committed against past it, we make.
Speaker 16: Clear to the governor of Israel that we expect them
Speaker 16: to behave consistent with the laws of war and consistent
Speaker 16: with their own rules of engagement. And we have seen
Speaker 16: the Israeli military come out and say it is conducting
Speaker 16: its own investigations into reports of soldiers who have failed
Speaker 16: to comply with either of those two sets of rules.
Speaker 16: And that's appropriate, and that's what you expect to professional
Speaker 16: military to do. And we expect those investigations to proceed
Speaker 16: and if appropriate, hold the the responsible parties accountable.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and this is this is in response to the
Speaker 4: new TikTok trend among IDF soldiers. Uh to kind of
Speaker 4: steal lingerie and other other garments. Palestinian women canes uh
Speaker 4: one one guy curled up in a crib uh and
Speaker 4: and put that on on TikTok. No nobody knows, uh,
Speaker 4: you know where that child is? Is that has that
Speaker 4: child been killed by the I d F H Is
Speaker 4: that child starving? Is that Obviously the child is it
Speaker 4: has has been pushed out of his or her home
Speaker 4: because the soldier is now like, you know, having a
Speaker 4: good time, like sleeping in the kids in the kid's crib.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 4: The one though, correction that I would make to Miller's
Speaker 4: point here he says that you know, we expect uh
Speaker 4: the Israelis to abide by international law. The US government
Speaker 4: actually has given Israel until middle of March to sign
Speaker 4: a document saying that they will abide by international law
Speaker 4: in order to continue to receive American weapons. The irony
Speaker 4: is that within the US government that represents a victory
Speaker 4: for the people who have been pushing for some sort
Speaker 4: of accountability and some sort of reckoning with the human
Speaker 4: rights abuses that Israel's committing with American weapons. But it
Speaker 4: also puts on display a rather glaring problem, which is
Speaker 4: at wait a minute, you're giving them until the middle
Speaker 4: of March to follow the law, and in.
Speaker 5: The meantime insane and in the meantime saying, you know,
Speaker 5: we expect our partners in Israel, Right.
Speaker 4: You've been saying that you expect them to follow Why
Speaker 4: do you expect them to follow it? If it's going
Speaker 4: to take them until the middle of March, even to
Speaker 4: decide whether or not they're going to put their signature
Speaker 4: on a meaningless document asserting that they're going to follow
Speaker 4: the law when they haven't been following the law for
Speaker 4: months and years.
Speaker 5: Actually, yeah, absolutely, let's put this next element up on
Speaker 5: the screen, just to wrap up this block. A Reuter's
Speaker 5: report inside the Democratic rebellion against Biden over the Gaza war.
Speaker 5: We covered earlier in the show today, Ryan, what happened
Speaker 5: in Michigan last night, which you know, I think really
Speaker 5: was worse than what the Biden administration even expected. If
Speaker 5: you put the protest vote together, you're somewhere near twenty
Speaker 5: percent of voters coming out against Biden. He lost or
Speaker 5: him tire. He won Michigan in twenty twenty by one
Speaker 5: hundred and fifty five thousand votes. The protest vote itself
Speaker 5: was around one hundred and twenty two thousand, one hundred
Speaker 5: and forty something thousand votes just last night in a
Speaker 5: low turnout primary for Joe Biden. We played Debbie Dingle
Speaker 5: early in the show saying this was even ipsilante. It
Speaker 5: wasn't just dearborn. This is kind of across the board
Speaker 5: in places where you know, there are concentrations of young voters,
Speaker 5: ever American voters and people across the border concerned about
Speaker 5: this issue for Joe Biden, and that may translate into
Speaker 5: how people vote. It does seem and according to this
Speaker 5: Reuters report, people were caught off guard in the White House.
Speaker 4: That might be the most shocking part, Like, what do
Speaker 4: you mean you were caught off right? The Reuter's report
Speaker 4: tells us that the Biden campaign really did believe that
Speaker 4: this was isolated to Arab and or Muslim voters, and
Speaker 4: that once the campaign really heated up and the contest
Speaker 4: was between Biden and Trump, that it would fade as
Speaker 4: a concern like that was the that was according to
Speaker 4: this article, the actual belief of grown people who looked
Speaker 4: at this situation, analyzed it and came to a conclusion
Speaker 4: that is rather shocking.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it seems like at the very least they
Speaker 5: would be aware. You know, you can, you can prosecute
Speaker 5: your policy, but to have the blind spot about what
Speaker 5: this is doing is somewhat shocking.
Speaker 4: Yeah, if you would say, look, we're happy to lose
Speaker 4: over this. If they want to say that, okay, that's
Speaker 4: an immortally principled position, right, but to say we're going
Speaker 4: to engage in this and people are going to forget
Speaker 4: about it because Trump is so out of touch right
Speaker 4: that it is genuinely shocking.
Speaker 5: But this is where, actually, and that's an interesting point,
Speaker 5: This is where democrats and especially establishment democrats, laser focused
Speaker 5: on Donald Trump since twenty sixteen, a guy who is
Speaker 5: super polarizing and absolutely will get them votes in battleground
Speaker 5: states that are critical to winning reelection, there's no question
Speaker 5: about it. But if you just bank on that without
Speaker 5: also advancing an agenda that people a lot of other
Speaker 5: people feel because on the margins, if you lose other people,
Speaker 5: the marginal math against Donald Trump doesn't work. So you
Speaker 5: can't do one and not the other. You can't just
Speaker 5: say Donald Trump is so toxic that as much as
Speaker 5: we talk about him, so long as it's a binary
Speaker 5: choice between a Democrat Joe Biden and Donald Trump, a
Speaker 5: binary choice between Amy Klobahar or Pete booda judge and
Speaker 5: Donald Trump, or Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. As long
Speaker 5: as we have that binary choice, we can do what
Speaker 5: we want policy wise, that's just stupid.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know what Biden might still win, which
Speaker 4: is the craziest thing on the planet.
Speaker 5: He might well again, I mean, like, the binary choice
Speaker 5: is not good for Republicans.
Speaker 4: They're not wrong abouts is the more accurate way to
Speaker 4: put it.
Speaker 5: They're not wrong about that. It is not helpful to
Speaker 5: Republicans to have the binary choice on the national level.
Speaker 5: Even though we talked earlier and show about Trump making
Speaker 5: gains with certain demo blocks that are helpful to Republicans,
Speaker 5: it's still, you know, the binary choice isn't.
Speaker 4: Great for Surely, if bind wins and he's still president
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty eight, he would leave in twenty twenty nine.
Speaker 3: January twenty twenty nine.
Speaker 5: I congenuinely not imagine Joe Biden in.
Speaker 3: Twenty twenty is going to be something to say.
Speaker 5: Actually, Ryan, something the White House might want to take
Speaker 5: a look at is this video of students for Justice
Speaker 5: in Palestine at the University of Texas and Dallas doing
Speaker 5: some work. Here a top executive of Lockheed Martin, let's
Speaker 5: watch it right now.
Speaker 17: That you have a very cussive resume during eighteen years
Speaker 17: that you spent working on the fey two jets, in
Speaker 17: the year six that you work on the F thirty five.
Speaker 17: If you were to give an estimate, how many children
Speaker 17: do you think you've killed?
Speaker 3: I didn't even have answer that question.
Speaker 17: We're wanting to the job, thank.
Speaker 8: You, Hey Buss. As a business major, company culture is
Speaker 8: a factor of looking franticships, especially at a project manager
Speaker 8: position where you can spend most of your time working
Speaker 8: with others. What can you share about company culture and
Speaker 8: working with a team of genocide supporters and murderers.
Speaker 11: That's an I'm.
Speaker 3: That's an answer because that's not who I work with.
Speaker 18: And I'm just wondering, as let's say, an intern working
Speaker 18: on as a systems engineer or a software engineer.
Speaker 3: I don't know if.
Speaker 18: You'll be able to speak on this, but would you
Speaker 18: be working on a small part of those systems you're
Speaker 18: working on projects with business impact? Would I be kind
Speaker 18: of like a small little side project, or would I
Speaker 18: be able to directly contribute to the murder of posting
Speaker 18: and children?
Speaker 5: That was a really well done protest. Having dealt with
Speaker 5: these types of protests significantly, that's one of the most
Speaker 5: well done that I've seen. Subtle, but stinging, unstoppable.
Speaker 4: It forces you to think about the implications of the
Speaker 4: work that you're doing. You know you know, and you
Speaker 4: know what, there are a lot of good people working
Speaker 4: for companies that are doing horrible things.
Speaker 3: The United States of.
Speaker 4: America has wrought so much. You know, the number of
Speaker 4: people at US has killed since the Global War on
Speaker 4: Terror was launched is well into the millions. And you
Speaker 4: don't do that without the backing of basically the entire
Speaker 4: kind of industrial base. And so it's very hard not
Speaker 4: to be complicit in it. Some people are more complicit
Speaker 4: than others. If you're a software engineer on an F
Speaker 4: twenty two, now, you may you may have gone to.
Speaker 3: Work for the working hoping that you're working on.
Speaker 4: A seven forty seven, just trying, just trying to get
Speaker 4: people from one place to another, and then you wind
Speaker 4: up working for an F twenty two, and you hope
Speaker 4: that that F twenty two is going to do some
Speaker 4: type of Tom Cruise. I was just going to saying
Speaker 4: that just taking out an unnamed country's evil system, unnamed
Speaker 4: evil system, and just making the.
Speaker 3: World a better place. You find out that.
Speaker 4: In real life you're just you're just blaying children against
Speaker 4: the walls, the crumbling walls of Gaza top Gun.
Speaker 5: Like many many movies made with significant Pentagon.
Speaker 4: Yes, unable to be make, unable to be made without
Speaker 4: the Pentagon's cooperation and support.
Speaker 5: And to Debbie Dingle's point, and to your point, that
Speaker 5: was at the University of Texas in Dallas. This is
Speaker 5: not just dearborn as people in the White House might want.
Speaker 3: To think of us.
Speaker 5: All right, let's move on to John Stewart, who Ryan
Speaker 5: hosts a debate with your colleague Murtizza Hussein and who
Speaker 5: is a Rosenberg was on it, and but Johnspert basically
Speaker 5: covered this issue more broadly on his show, zeroed in
Speaker 5: on that yeah, yeah, in a way that really seemed
Speaker 5: to resonate with a lot of people. Let's roll one
Speaker 5: clip of that here.
Speaker 19: Dear God, if you insist on this plan, if you
Speaker 19: think that ends hamas, I believe, we in the United
Speaker 19: States have a banner you can use. It's a little
Speaker 19: wind damaged, but equally delusional. Look, the United States is
Speaker 19: Israel's closest ally, Israel's big brother in the Fraternity of Nations,
Speaker 19: Israel's work emergency contact. Maybe it's time for the US
Speaker 19: to give Israel some tough moral love.
Speaker 3: This is shameful. There has to be accountability for these
Speaker 3: war crimes.
Speaker 4: No targeting civilians in war, stop the war crimes and
Speaker 4: the atrocities, and end.
Speaker 5: The war today. It could happen right now, right now,
Speaker 5: thank you.
Speaker 4: These atrocities.
Speaker 19: So I'm being told the administration was talking about Russia
Speaker 19: bombing Ukraine. I apologize, also a war crime. But I'm
Speaker 19: sure they're giving equally stern advice to Israel.
Speaker 4: The Bide administration is urging Israel to be much more careful,
Speaker 4: to be more cautious.
Speaker 3: How Israel does this matters. Israel must do more to
Speaker 3: protect innocent civilians.
Speaker 16: We want to see the government of Israel take steps
Speaker 16: to minimize civilian harm.
Speaker 5: Be more surgical and more precise and more careful.
Speaker 20: Hey, Israel, could you please.
Speaker 3: Be more careful with your bombing.
Speaker 20: It's good advice, but really couldn't The United States have
Speaker 20: told Israel that when we gave.
Speaker 3: Them all the bombs where there are bombs.
Speaker 20: This is like your coke dealer coming in with an
Speaker 20: eight ball and going, don't.
Speaker 3: Stay up all night.
Speaker 20: Don't sleep is very important.
Speaker 3: You gotta sleep.
Speaker 4: So the problem funny good stuff biting like this is
Speaker 4: this is the John Stewart that we love. The problem
Speaker 4: I had with this is that when he came out
Speaker 4: later and hosts this debate between your Rosenberg and Moz
Speaker 4: Hussein Moz and people should go watch the whole thing.
Speaker 3: It was among the most kind of obtuse and.
Speaker 4: Dens I've seen John Stewart really in an interview, Moz
Speaker 4: was making the point that the US should either be
Speaker 4: a faar broker between the Palestinians and the Israelis and
Speaker 4: actually get, you know, towards peace, rather than what they're
Speaker 4: doing now, which is basically unconditional support for one side
Speaker 4: and not even talking to the other side except some
Speaker 4: of boss figures who are not remotely creditable among Palestinians.
Speaker 3: So we're just we're not engaged.
Speaker 4: In any kind of fair serious way leading to any
Speaker 4: he said, so either do it fairly, which we're not
Speaker 4: going to do, or step aside get out. And Maz's
Speaker 4: argument is that if the United States kind of withdraws
Speaker 4: its blank check, withdraws its unconditional support for Israel, that
Speaker 4: could actually help Israel. That would enable Israel's need to
Speaker 4: compromise with its neighbors, rather than enabling its worst impulses,
Speaker 4: which are never to compromise and continuing to annext create
Speaker 4: more settlements, more conflict, manage the conflict so that you
Speaker 4: can appease the kind of far right which wants complete
Speaker 4: control of the West Bank, the far far right, the
Speaker 4: one's complete control of Godza Strip. Although that you know
Speaker 4: that that element is now creeping well across the entire
Speaker 4: Israeli spectrum on this the heat of this, of this moment,
Speaker 4: with the US offering unconditional support, that political element within
Speaker 4: israel Is is kind of buttressed and is able to
Speaker 4: then push aside any elements that say, no, why don't
Speaker 4: we why don't we compromise, because you know, we we
Speaker 4: live here, like we're going to have to live with
Speaker 4: these with with these neighbors for hundreds and thousands of years.
Speaker 4: So let's let's find a solution here. You don't need
Speaker 4: a solution that the US is going to support you.
Speaker 4: So mazariment was US backs away, then they're forced into
Speaker 4: actually doing some sort of compromise here.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 4: John Stewart and Yeerra's response to that was to kind
Speaker 4: of make these dumb, you know, stale twenty year old
Speaker 4: jokes about how the United States can't wave a magic
Speaker 4: wand and influence world affairs everywhere in the world they
Speaker 4: never address his very specific point about why in fact
Speaker 4: they could, which is beside the point that all of
Speaker 4: the kind of money and weapons that we're giving are
Speaker 4: making the entire thing possible. Like we talk about a
Speaker 4: magic wand we're not giving them magic wands. We're giving
Speaker 4: them exploding wands all the time, and they keep dropping
Speaker 4: them on people, and that is the thing that is
Speaker 4: driving them forward. At the same day that this was happening,
Speaker 4: Bibi and Yahoo posted a statement bragging about a completely
Speaker 4: absurd Mark Penn Harris X. You know that, like he's
Speaker 4: the last guy on earth who actually thinks Mark Penn
Speaker 4: is doing like real credible polls.
Speaker 3: But so Mark Penn posted post of this poll.
Speaker 4: Yeah, just the worst person on the planet objectively speaking.
Speaker 5: And so I want to see your worst people. Actually,
Speaker 5: that would be a fun.
Speaker 4: There's good Mark Penn stuff, and I think most of
Speaker 4: my books.
Speaker 3: But anyway, so the poll that.
Speaker 4: Mark Penn claimed to have come up with said that
Speaker 4: the American people are actually more supportive of Israel than
Speaker 4: they are of the Palestinians. American public opinion is strongly
Speaker 4: against this war and strongly for a ceasefire.
Speaker 3: So but set that aside, pretend it's true.
Speaker 4: Netanyah who pointed at this poll and said, look, this
Speaker 4: is a result of my pr campaign that I've been
Speaker 4: doing in the United States. I have gotten the US
Speaker 4: public support for this war effort. That US public support
Speaker 4: will enable us to continue this war until complete victory.
Speaker 4: That's what he's telling the Israeli public. So if net
Speaker 4: Yahoo believes that American support is essential and American public
Speaker 4: opinion is essential to continuing the war, why do John
Speaker 4: Stewart and Naria Rosenberg think that he's wrong about that? Like,
Speaker 4: why does he think that the US actually doesn't have
Speaker 4: that much influence. So that's what bothered me about the
Speaker 4: kind of contradiction between his good monologue and you know,
Speaker 4: effectively pointing out the way that the US is enabling
Speaker 4: war crimes at one place and condemning them another place.
Speaker 4: But then when it comes to having the actual conversation,
Speaker 4: he just felt ub to us about the whole thing.
Speaker 5: I've always found John Stewart to be inflexible in debate.
Speaker 5: I think it's his weakness, Whereas, like when he can
Speaker 5: write or work on a really clever scripted monologue, his
Speaker 5: more biding and I think his arguments are more finely
Speaker 5: honed or finally tuned. But in debates, you know, actually,
Speaker 5: speaking of which, Tucker Carlson just yesterday went on Lex
Speaker 5: Friedman show or the interview dropped yesterday, and Tucker Carlson said,
Speaker 5: John Stewart was right in that infamous Crossfire interview. It
Speaker 5: was one of the there's a super interesting interview that
Speaker 5: Tucker do with Lex Friedman. But it was one point
Speaker 5: that Tucker said, and I disagree with that actually, but
Speaker 5: it's one point Tucker said. You know, Crossfire was fundamentally
Speaker 5: toxic because it was just about Democrats versus Republicans. It
Speaker 5: was this binary part is of binary DEM's Republicans, not
Speaker 5: so much even like left and right independent, it was
Speaker 5: just Dems and Republicans. And that was fundamentally harmful to
Speaker 5: the country. So John stew It was right. So maybe right,
Speaker 5: that's a moment where John Stewart thrived in debate. How
Speaker 5: did Maz find the experience of going on the show?
Speaker 4: I think the he thought the questions were a little
Speaker 4: bit not well pointed, I'd say, and if you and
Speaker 4: if you go, I think you should go watch the interview.
Speaker 4: You see him, You see that Stuart's questions, You're like,
Speaker 4: how do you even answer that? Like, what is what
Speaker 4: kind of question is this? It wasn't it? Almost It
Speaker 4: almost felt like John Stewart was pretty nervous and was
Speaker 4: kind of retreating.
Speaker 3: To more comfortable tropes. It's a hard thing to do,
Speaker 3: oh for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean, you know when when I go on let's say,
Speaker 4: like CNN or something and I'm and I'm asked to
Speaker 4: talk about like the most sensitive stuff, like I get
Speaker 4: a little nervous.
Speaker 3: I'm like, am I going to say the wrong thing here?
Speaker 4: Like I don't blame him for that for some reason,
Speaker 4: I'm not nervous here, even though these clips also go
Speaker 4: out to the world.
Speaker 5: Sure do. Sometimes we don't know what that's about media.
Speaker 4: The other dirty secret, by the way, to back up
Speaker 4: what Tucker said about John Stewart being right, is that
Speaker 4: most people in media, and I bet you would bet
Speaker 4: you this is your experience too, most people in media
Speaker 4: who participate in that circus think that it's a sham
Speaker 4: and and think that it's actually bad for the country
Speaker 4: and are frustrated. Like you know, I used to be
Speaker 4: an MSNBC contributor back in the mid twenty.
Speaker 3: Tens, and it was. It was frustrating.
Speaker 4: You'd get on and you'd have like forty five seconds, Yeah,
Speaker 4: do an answer, and then you'd have another forty five
Speaker 4: seconds to do another answer, and then and then like
Speaker 4: that's it. Yeah, like this is so so much more Now,
Speaker 4: forty five seconds is better than none.
Speaker 3: So that's why I do it.
Speaker 4: But I prefer this format much much better, where we
Speaker 4: can just go on and on and on and never
Speaker 4: shut up.
Speaker 5: Although sometimes we have you know, people guests in studio
Speaker 5: like we have right now that we're going to.
Speaker 3: Get to we got to shut up and bring them in.
Speaker 5: But yes, no, it's super interesting, and I look forward
Speaker 5: to watching the full debate because I mean, even if
Speaker 5: Stuart's questions were lacking, hosting a debate in that format,
Speaker 5: that's why I disagree and cross from fire, I think
Speaker 5: that's fundamentally a good thing. So I look forward to
Speaker 5: watching it.
Speaker 3: Let's talk government shutdown.
Speaker 4: All right, So we are just two days away from
Speaker 4: a Friday government shutdown of twenty percent of the government
Speaker 4: if we don't reach a deal, and spoiler, it does
Speaker 4: not look like we're going to reach a deal that.
Speaker 3: Does not make Mitch McConnell happy.
Speaker 4: Let's roll this clip from the Senate Republican leader.
Speaker 21: Good afternoon everyone. As you know, we were four of
Speaker 21: us were at the White House with Presbent Biden earlier
Speaker 21: in the day, and I think it's pretty safe to
Speaker 21: say we all agree we need to avoid a government shutdown.
Speaker 21: The Speaker was optimistic that they would be able to
Speaker 21: move forward first with the four bills, and under no
Speaker 21: circumstances does anybody want to shut the government down. So
Speaker 21: I think we can stop that drama right here before
Speaker 21: it emerges.
Speaker 3: We're simply not going to do that.
Speaker 21: So we're going to come close. I hope to have
Speaker 21: an orderly appropriation process, obviously not by the time we
Speaker 21: should have done it, but better than we've done some
Speaker 21: years by getting this four through and then doing the
Speaker 21: balance of them as a mini us.
Speaker 4: A little bit later, a little more than ten years ago,
Speaker 4: Mitch McConnell pushed kind of was part of a government
Speaker 4: shutdown that went absolutely terribly for Republicans, and when republic
Speaker 4: when the kind of right flank of Republicans came back
Speaker 4: shortly afterwards trying to shut the government down, he said,
Speaker 4: there's no education in the second kick of a mule.
Speaker 4: Since then, he has been kicked by that mule over
Speaker 4: and over and over again, and there is no education
Speaker 4: in it. He's still of the mind that a government
Speaker 4: shut down is terrible for Republicans, and yet it still
Speaker 4: looks like he's going to get kicked.
Speaker 3: What's what's your.
Speaker 4: Read on poor miss McConnell and that mule.
Speaker 5: First of all, speaking at a you could say tortoise
Speaker 5: like pace, just.
Speaker 3: Glacially, So I hope everybody sped that one up.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that was really something. Mitch McConnell's word is not
Speaker 5: going to mean a whole lot on the House set anymore.
Speaker 5: And actually, even as became clear last month, on the
Speaker 5: Senate side, it's starting to hold increasingly last water because
Speaker 5: there's a mutiny brewing that is being led by people
Speaker 5: like Mike Lee, but also being joined by people like
Speaker 5: Tid Cruz others that have you know, been sort of
Speaker 5: faithful McConnell deputies.
Speaker 3: To you know, he led that shutdown I was talking about.
Speaker 5: He did, he did, but in like the last.
Speaker 3: Went very well five years.
Speaker 5: Yes, it went great. That's what I was just going
Speaker 5: to say. Actually, is you know, if you're talking to
Speaker 5: Chip Roy, who is leading the mutiny along Freedom coccus.
Speaker 5: Republicans on the House side, they know that their constituents
Speaker 5: want them to shut down the government. They will not
Speaker 5: be punished in their districts for shutting down the government,
Speaker 5: but nationally, Republicans will certainly be punished for shutting down
Speaker 5: the government. Chuck Schumer was in a meeting with Hakim Jeffreys,
Speaker 5: Mike Johnson, Kamala Harris, Joe Biden at the White House yesterday,
Speaker 5: and yeah, the whole gang was there. So let's take
Speaker 5: a little listen to what Chuck Schumer said outside the
Speaker 5: White House after the meeting yesterday, and then we'll hear
Speaker 5: from Mike Johnson as well. Here's Schumer.
Speaker 22: So, what made this meeting one of the most intense
Speaker 22: you've ever had? The urgency of supporting Ukraine and the
Speaker 22: consequences to the people of America, to America's strength if
Speaker 22: we don't do anything, and don't do anything soon. I
Speaker 22: was so, so shaken. But what I saw at the border,
Speaker 22: I was strengthened by the strength of Zelenski and the
Speaker 22: Ukrainian people and the Ukrainian soldiers, but shaken that here
Speaker 22: they are fighting without arms against a brutal dictator who
Speaker 22: will just do anything to kill them, and the intensity
Speaker 22: in that room was surprising to me, but because of
Speaker 22: the passion of the President, the Vice President, Leader, Leader Jeffreys, Speaker,
Speaker 22: Leader McConnell, and myself.
Speaker 5: So he seemed to have a little Freudian slip there,
Speaker 5: and Chiprop Mitch mcc I'm sorry, Chuck Schumer seemed to
Speaker 5: have a little Freudians slipped there when he said the
Speaker 5: urgency of supporting Ukraine, I was shaken by what I
Speaker 5: saw at the border. Tip Roy jumped on that and said,
Speaker 5: I think reasonably implied that Schumer was talking The only
Speaker 5: border he could have been talking about in that context
Speaker 5: is the Ukrainian border. That is a very tone deaf
Speaker 5: way to defend this government shutdown. There's a much better
Speaker 5: way for Democrats to defend to defend this government shutdown,
Speaker 5: Saying that you were shaken by what you saw at
Speaker 5: the Ukraine border is a out as bad as it
Speaker 5: could get for Democrats messaging on this.
Speaker 4: This is their big issue right now. And Mitch McConnell too.
Speaker 4: McConnell said that, you know ro connell privately in that meeting,
Speaker 4: but also publicly pressed Mike Johnson directly to say, look,
Speaker 4: take our Israel, Taiwan and Ukraine funding bill up separately
Speaker 4: and let your one hundred Republicans who support it and
Speaker 4: the two hundred Democrats who support it kind of push
Speaker 4: it through. But he's, you know, Mike Johnson's under intense
Speaker 4: pressure not to support it. You noticed that Chuck Schumer
Speaker 4: was talking about all the people who were so passionate
Speaker 4: and support of the Ukraine money there, and he briefly
Speaker 4: said Speaker, and then he took that back because Speaker
Speaker 4: Johnson is the one who was not energetically supportive of that.
Speaker 3: So this entire thing ends.
Speaker 4: Up kind of being caught up in the war, the
Speaker 4: war spending as well as the fight around all the
Speaker 4: government spending. If people are curious by the way, it's
Speaker 4: the agencies that would shut down would be agriculture, energy, transportation,
Speaker 4: VA Veterans affairs a big one, and HUD which is
Speaker 4: also a big one that you know, if if that's
Speaker 4: shut down for like thirty days or so, then you know,
Speaker 4: Section eight checks stop going out. Section eight checks stop
Speaker 4: going out. All of the people that you know rely
Speaker 4: on either that housing or the or those checks. You know,
Speaker 4: those people are at significant you.
Speaker 3: Know, hardship.
Speaker 4: You know, all of it, all of it matters, but
Speaker 4: that you know, that's that's just one example of it.
Speaker 3: I would believe it's what.
Speaker 4: March eighth, where the rest of the government would then
Speaker 4: shut down because this was speaking Mike Johnson's kind of
Speaker 4: way to get out of hit the last jam that
Speaker 4: he was in.
Speaker 3: He said, well, here's my solution. That's going to be
Speaker 3: a two tier thing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's like pixie dust that you throw up
Speaker 4: two tiers and you're like, oh, okay, well that sounds interesting.
Speaker 4: Let's let's try that, knowing all the while that the
Speaker 4: the first here was just going to be blown through.
Speaker 4: Yeah like that, this twenty percent is going down, but
Speaker 4: the next one then is the Pentagon and you know,
Speaker 4: the rest, the rest of the government. But yes, it's
Speaker 4: all tangled up with Israel, Ukraine and this money for
Speaker 4: a potential war in Taiwan, over China, over you know,
Speaker 4: Chinese you know, claims of sovereignty, et cetera like that.
Speaker 4: That one just kind of gets brushed aside. But that's
Speaker 4: a that's a.
Speaker 3: Big part of this as well.
Speaker 4: Meanwhile, you've got Israeli officials who were saying we need
Speaker 4: that money yesterday I think that was what Ron Dharmer,
Speaker 4: Netanyahuo's kind of top lieutenant said.
Speaker 3: So, yeah, it doesn't look like it's moving though.
Speaker 5: So Mike Johnson, she had truck shom, we're talking about
Speaker 5: the Ukrainian border, ostensibly talking about the Ukrainian border. Here's
Speaker 5: what House Speaker Mike Johnson said when he came out
Speaker 5: of that meeting.
Speaker 23: We believe that we can get to agreement on these
Speaker 23: issues and prevent a government shut down, and that's our
Speaker 23: first responsibility. You also heard, I'm sure that there was
Speaker 23: discussion about the supplemental a spending package, and I was
Speaker 23: very clear with the President and all those in the
Speaker 23: room that the House is actively pursuing and investigating all
Speaker 23: the various options on that and we will address that
Speaker 23: in a timely manner. But again, the first priority of
Speaker 23: the country is our border and making sure it's secure.
Speaker 5: So ran a gallop pole that came out. I think
Speaker 5: it was actually even just yesterday found immigration was the
Speaker 5: issue the most important issue for people who are asked
Speaker 5: in this gallop pole, what is the most important problem
Speaker 5: in the country right now? Twenty eight percent said immigration.
Speaker 5: That was higher than any of the other options. Government, economy,
Speaker 5: inflation immigration again twenty eight percent. That was an eight
Speaker 5: point jump from the month before. So and Trump and
Speaker 5: Biden are both actually on Tomorrow Thursday going to the border,
Speaker 5: making trips to the border. So it makes it easier
Speaker 5: for Republicans to have that conversation. Obviously Democrats wanted and
Speaker 5: Mitch McConnell actually allowed them to have that little talking
Speaker 5: point when they worked out a build with James Langford
Speaker 5: and said, here, we tried to fix the border. Republicans
Speaker 5: rejected the plan to fix the border, and so then
Speaker 5: they put the Ukraine Israel spending by itself up for
Speaker 5: House Republicans to vote up or down. House Republicans don't
Speaker 5: want to vote anything up or down unless it includes
Speaker 5: border security. And their members are not worried about a
Speaker 5: shutdown because they don't think they're going to be punished
Speaker 5: in their districts on the House side for a government
Speaker 5: shut down. Obviously, their case is made easier when you
Speaker 5: have Chuck Schumer talking about Ukraine. His biggest thing is
Speaker 5: thinking about Ukraine at the same time, though they continue
Speaker 5: to govern by a continuing resolution. I mean, this is
Speaker 5: just a pathetic cycle that I think speaks ran too
Speaker 5: our inability to govern as a country period to keep
Speaker 5: on funding the government by a continuing resolution. Mike Johnson, though,
Speaker 5: the reason that he's between a rock and a hard place.
Speaker 5: As people remember, one of the most important parts of
Speaker 5: the rules packaged that in the House was passed in
Speaker 5: order for Mike John's and to become speaker. They out
Speaker 5: to Kevin McCarthy. They couldn't land on any consensus speaker
Speaker 5: candidate because their margins are so slim, and Mike Johnson
Speaker 5: agreed to what's called the motion of a kate. And
Speaker 5: people have all become familiar with this little aspect of
Speaker 5: parliamentary procedure in the last year because it's what allowed
Speaker 5: Republicans to get rid of Kevin McCarthy. And he didn't
Speaker 5: want the motion of a kate to be in the
Speaker 5: rules package that after eighteen tries got him elected speaker.
Speaker 5: It was it was his downfall. Then you have Mike
Speaker 5: Johnson agreeing also to the motion of a kate. So
Speaker 5: basically one member, one member who's unhappy with this shutdown
Speaker 5: can bring a vote to the floor to vacate the chair.
Speaker 3: So the Democrats couldn't save him at that format. Democrats,
Speaker 3: actually they've floated that they might actually do. If he's
Speaker 3: being helpful to them.
Speaker 5: They can get some stuff out of that. Although then
Speaker 5: it becomes difficult for Democrats, and it becomes difficult for
Speaker 5: republic It becomes difficult for Freedom Caucus guys the moment
Speaker 5: of their members. A rogue person says they.
Speaker 4: Have two hundred nineteen and you need to eighteen to
Speaker 4: pass legislation.
Speaker 5: They lost George Santos. It's even a thinner, it's even
Speaker 5: a slimmer majority now. So that's why you know, Mike
Speaker 5: Johnson is in a very difficult position. And Ryan, I
Speaker 5: am hearing that Mike Johnson does continue to be a
Speaker 5: real person as well, not a he's an actual lab created.
Speaker 4: Mike Mike Johnson five years from now. If you ask
Speaker 4: me who the speaker was for the brief period, Mike Johnson,
Speaker 4: I'll be like Mark Thompson like.
Speaker 3: Something.
Speaker 4: And when you're like, when somebody's like, no, I think
Speaker 4: they have Google, it was Mike Johnson, like A, that's right,
Speaker 4: it was Mike Johnson.
Speaker 5: Yeah, But we do like that's one of the duties
Speaker 5: that we take seriously is continue to update the viewers
Speaker 5: on whether Mike Johnson continues to exist as a real
Speaker 5: human being.
Speaker 4: And my read on why we were likely it seems
Speaker 4: like to potentially get a shutdown is that I think
Speaker 4: Biden would like to change the topic of conversation from
Speaker 4: how his support unconditional support of the genocide Gaza is
Speaker 4: costing him potentially the presidential election, to look how incompetent
Speaker 4: these Republicans are.
Speaker 3: They're shutting down the government for no discernible reason.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Democrats are just salivating over the possibility of being
Speaker 4: able to say that again, and Republicans may just be
Speaker 4: dysfunctional enough to allow them to go ahead and say it.
Speaker 4: So Democrats are going to do absolutely nothing to get
Speaker 4: out of Republicans' way on this thing, Like they're going
Speaker 4: to make sure that Republicans have every opportunity to trip
Speaker 4: over their shoelaces yep.
Speaker 5: And shut down politics if you're the one that's in
Speaker 5: the way. And you know, the media always puts Republicans
Speaker 5: as being the ones in the way, even when they
Speaker 5: have a case that I think is popular with the public.
Speaker 5: Immigration is certainly a case that's popular with the public.
Speaker 5: But even so, voters, even if they're not even paying
Speaker 5: attention to the media, they see Republicans shut down DHS.
Speaker 5: DHS is interesting because that's the border.
Speaker 4: It's that fundamental contradiction in your messaging that says, we're
Speaker 4: so concerned about the way that the government is handling
Speaker 4: the border that we're going to shut the government down.
Speaker 4: And then and regular people that are like, don't think
Speaker 4: that's going to help things at the border.
Speaker 5: Well, and also the media immediately will start talking about
Speaker 5: the VA with good reason. So you are always going
Speaker 5: to you're as a Republican, you're always going to get
Speaker 5: blamed for the government shutdown because the media is not
Speaker 5: going to be sympathetic to your cause. And also because
Speaker 5: if you're the obstructionist, the public just reads obstruction as
Speaker 5: the blame. You can never have that nuanced discussion about
Speaker 5: the negotiations that you've been having with leadership behind closed doors,
Speaker 5: because those dynamics are complicated and like, actually, even when
Speaker 5: you follow the dynamics closely, like if you read playbook
Speaker 5: every morning, and you know whatever, even if you talk
Speaker 5: to people in those circles, sometimes you don't know what
Speaker 5: the truth is about what leader how much leadership actually
Speaker 5: screwed you over? Did you screw leadership over who agreed
Speaker 5: to what So that's just never really a winning argument
Speaker 5: outside a district where you can say I'm doing this
Speaker 5: to stick it to Mitch McConnell.
Speaker 3: Well, we'll say, gonna be interesting.
Speaker 5: I don't know, Ryan, I feel like this one might
Speaker 5: actually happen briefly.
Speaker 4: So that's my so O the reason it wouldn't happen
Speaker 4: is there's so little upside for Republicans.
Speaker 5: Well, the reason that it wouldn't happen is the same
Speaker 5: reason I think it could happen. And that's what's complicated here,
Speaker 5: which is that they don't have any good options. So
Speaker 5: that's why we've been funding the government via CR for
Speaker 5: so long, is that they're just like, screw it. We're
Speaker 5: obviously not going to get a deal. So CR like
Speaker 5: poison pill. You can have like your protest vote, but
Speaker 5: that's it. There's no way that if we vacate the chair,
Speaker 5: this goes to a place where we can fund the
Speaker 5: government because there's literally no deal to be made. And
Speaker 5: so I think that's the best case that the shutdown
Speaker 5: doesn't happen, just because there's really nowhere to go afterwards.
Speaker 5: But they feel like they've exhausted their options, they've vacated
Speaker 5: the chair. They got mad over the debt ceiling negotiations
Speaker 5: and they vacated the chair. And now they've pushed Johnson
Speaker 5: as far as they feel like they could push him.
Speaker 5: So that's where you get a motion to vacate. But
Speaker 5: everyone knows even if you do that, it doesn't fund
Speaker 5: the government.
Speaker 4: Yeah, our entire two hundred plus year old system relies
Speaker 4: really on consensus because of all the choke points that
Speaker 4: are in it, and consensus is slowly breaking down. You know,
Speaker 4: it peaked to say in the nineteen fifties with that monoculture.
Speaker 4: We still have something of a monoculture around despite people
Speaker 4: thinking that we're all just a bunch of divided, niche subcultures.
Speaker 4: But it's fraying, and the more it phrays, the more
Speaker 4: we're going to have these kinds of problems. And I
Speaker 4: think so the system's going to have to respond somehow
Speaker 4: because there's two built in idiotic things, which like when
Speaker 4: you can't get consensus, there's a potential global financial crisis
Speaker 4: over defaulting on the debt for no reason, and the
Speaker 4: government just shuts down and stops working and everybody goes
Speaker 4: home and then comes back on month later and gets
Speaker 4: paid for things that they didn't do during that month,
Speaker 4: and in the meantime, lots of people suffered, and I feel.
Speaker 5: Like it solves nothing.
Speaker 4: As the system continues to break down, they're going to
Speaker 4: have to be some kind of redundancies built in that say, like,
Speaker 4: all right, if you don't get the consensus, you still
Speaker 4: get section your Section eight check still goes to the
Speaker 4: landlord or whatever. Like we're still paying these basic things
Speaker 4: at some basic level. And I think maybe at some
Speaker 4: point lawmakers will produce that system because it's so irrational,
Speaker 4: but we're certainly not there yet, and I think we
Speaker 4: need some The system is going to need to create
Speaker 4: a lot of pain for people before that eventually happens.
Speaker 4: Whether it's this time or at a future time remains
Speaker 4: to be seen.
Speaker 5: It's like a Kissinger. Let's heighten the contradictions in Chile,
Speaker 5: make the economy scream, take a scream.
Speaker 3: Yeah, then we'll get a revolution.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, Well, we'll see what happens. By Friday, a
Speaker 5: lot on the line, and it's not looking good, So
Speaker 5: we'll continue to follow that story for everyone. We have
Speaker 5: a great guest here in Studio Ryan. It would be
Speaker 5: Gabe shipton the filmmaker brother of Julianasange can't wait to
Speaker 5: have a conversation with him.
Speaker 3: I stick around for that, all right.
Speaker 4: We're joined now by Gabe Shipman, who's a filmmaker and
Speaker 4: also the brother of Julian Sange. Gabe, welcome back to
Speaker 4: the program. Thanks for joining us. Good to be with
Speaker 4: you again. And so you're you're an Australian but you're
Speaker 4: hearing you're here in Washington, DC, kind of drumming up
Speaker 4: support for your brother in the wake of his most
Speaker 4: recent hearing, which we talked about last week on the program.
Speaker 4: We had Chip Gibbons on. People can go back and
Speaker 4: watch that interview if they want to. You saw him
Speaker 4: at the hearing. I gather how was how was the
Speaker 4: hearing from your perspective, this two day affair, this kind
Speaker 4: of final battle before before the decision on extradition.
Speaker 3: My impression was.
Speaker 24: That the hard court judges were really feeling feeling the pressure.
Speaker 24: They were on their best behavior and trying to really
Speaker 24: engage with the arguments in a different way that I
Speaker 24: hadn't seen before. When Julian faces these British judges, usually
Speaker 24: they're very closed and very terse towards the defense, But
Speaker 24: this time they were engaging with the arguments and also
Speaker 24: engaging with the prosecution arguments, making statements like, oh so
Speaker 24: if Julian is extradited, does that mean any journalists in
Speaker 24: the UK could be extradited? And the prosecution essentially had
Speaker 24: to answer yes. So, you know, the judges making these
Speaker 24: sorts of points I found quite interesting in a different
Speaker 24: vibe sense.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's huge, and I'm curious. Ryan mentioned you're here
Speaker 5: to drum up support for Julian's cause in DC. When
Speaker 5: you talk to maybe skeptical lawmakers or staffers, you're really
Speaker 5: putting a human face on this issue. But also, what
Speaker 5: are the arguments you find that have you know, all
Speaker 5: of the question of the last almost you know, years
Speaker 5: and years, how that have been most persuasive? I mean
Speaker 5: you just mentioned the judge and the journalism question. That's
Speaker 5: a pretty persuasive one, especially to US journalists. But if
Speaker 5: you're talking to scap decks, and as you're talking maybe
Speaker 5: even the next week to some scap decks, what's the
Speaker 5: most powerful argument you found?
Speaker 24: Well, you know, it sort of changes. Everyone sort of
Speaker 24: comes at this from their own you know, political perspective,
Speaker 24: and you know, on the on the Democrat side, Press
Speaker 24: freedom resonates a lot with peoples, particularly exposing war crimes,
Speaker 24: you know, of the military industrial complex, you know, state criminality.
Speaker 24: Those sorts of arguments really resonate with the Democrat side,
Speaker 24: and then you know, with the Republicans, it's always first Amendment,
Speaker 24: you know, freedom of speech, first Amendment, first Amendment rights,
Speaker 24: and that argument carries a lot of weight, particularly with
Speaker 24: people like Rampaul, the libertarian leaning folks on the Hill.
Speaker 3: But there's a resolution Resolution.
Speaker 24: One three four before in the in the Judiciary Committee,
Speaker 24: and we're asking lawmakers to sign on to that resolution.
Speaker 24: It's got cosponsors like Jim McGovern, Thomas Messi, and I
Speaker 24: think they're about eight in total, and we'd like to
Speaker 24: get to that to twenty.
Speaker 3: So that's my real I am, well, I'm in Washington.
Speaker 4: The twenty sixteen reporting that Juliana Sangje did has nothing
Speaker 4: to do with these charges, like this is all you know,
Speaker 4: Chelsea Manning related stuff about the you know, the.
Speaker 3: Cables collateral collateral murder.
Speaker 4: Yet Democrats still hold a huge grudge against your brother
Speaker 4: for you know, the reporting he did on the on
Speaker 4: the DNC and Hillary Clinton in twenty sixteen. How often
Speaker 4: does that still come up now? Like, what's seven eight
Speaker 4: years later when you're talking to Democrats, is it does
Speaker 4: it go unspoken?
Speaker 3: Do you do it? Like?
Speaker 4: How do you how do you confront that political obstacle.
Speaker 24: Yeah, that's a big one for Democrats, and we always
Speaker 24: you know, we're always talking about what's actually at stake
Speaker 24: and sort of reframing, reframing it in that sense, saying
Speaker 24: that this is an unprecedent to espionage prosecution that could
Speaker 24: be turned against you know, democrat media in the future,
Speaker 24: like the New York Times or the Washington Post.
Speaker 3: Do they acknowledge it's democratic media? You? I mean, I
Speaker 3: think it's pretty they get it.
Speaker 24: Yeah, yeah, I think that it's pretty you know that
Speaker 24: they're they're sort of you know.
Speaker 3: Cultural cultural allies.
Speaker 14: Yeah.
Speaker 24: Yeah, So I don't think anyone really denies that that's
Speaker 24: the case. And having the New York Times actually writing
Speaker 24: to President Biden, which they did, I think at the
Speaker 24: end of twenty two, calling on him to drop the charges,
Speaker 24: that really helps focus that argument because having them saying, hey, look,
Speaker 24: this is a threat to us. You know, when we're
Speaker 24: approaching lawmakers, we say, well, you know, if there's a
Speaker 24: Trump administration down the track, do you want them to
Speaker 24: have this president to potentially use against these other media organizations.
Speaker 24: So I think sort of moving around that twenty sixteen
Speaker 24: argument and really getting to you know, what's really at
Speaker 24: stake here and what this prosecution means for other media
Speaker 24: around the place, I think, And also one other argument
Speaker 24: that cuts through is that the global support now for Julian,
Speaker 24: particularly with Australia that is one of the US's closest allies,
Speaker 24: has making this prosecution very obviously scandalous around the world.
Speaker 24: And really talking to lawmakers here about that how it's
Speaker 24: seen by allies or even not allies like China or Russia,
Speaker 24: who use it often when they're confronted with their human.
Speaker 3: Rights to do anything they want.
Speaker 4: Then with the press and just pointed, well, you guys
Speaker 4: are trying to lock up Julian's.
Speaker 24: On yeah, exactly, So you are locking them all, yeah,
Speaker 24: And so it reduces the US's standing when they want
Speaker 24: to advocate for human rights causes with these countries, but
Speaker 24: also with their allies now such as Australia, And just
Speaker 24: a couple of weeks ago, the Australian Parliament put through
Speaker 24: a resolution that passed the parliament. Over two thirds of
Speaker 24: the parliament voted for it in favor of it, and
Speaker 24: that was calling on the United States to.
Speaker 3: Let Julian go home.
Speaker 24: So I think those these steps are really significant speaking
Speaker 24: with lawmakers because there's not really an understanding of how
Speaker 24: this affects the image internationally of the United States.
Speaker 5: And actually, again on the human level, your family has
Speaker 5: been very clear that you're worried about your brother's health
Speaker 5: and that his very life is on the line, and
Speaker 5: these legal proceedings. The other thing I wanted to add
Speaker 5: to that, I wanted to ask you any updates on
Speaker 5: Julian's health since the hearing, how he's doing, But also
Speaker 5: just how worried are you about a second Trump administration
Speaker 5: given that during the first Trump administration, I think it
Speaker 5: was Michael Issakaff reported in Yahoo that Mike Pompeo contemplated
Speaker 5: an assassination plot against your brother. That has to be surreal.
Speaker 5: But where's your head when you think about how this
Speaker 5: could where this could go in the coming years.
Speaker 24: Yeah, Well, if Mike Pompeo sort of ends up in
Speaker 24: this new and in a potentially new administration, I think
Speaker 24: that's really worrying. Not just for Julian but for many,
Speaker 24: many people. And yeah, those were very difficult times for Julian.
Speaker 24: When you know, Pompeo called WikiLeaks and non state Hostile
Speaker 24: intelligence Agency, they were able to use clandestine operations with
Speaker 24: our congressional oversight against Julian, against Wiki leaks. Then that's
Speaker 24: where we saw those plots to kidnap Julian and to
Speaker 24: even kill him, and that's where this prosecution has come from.
Speaker 24: I think people need to understand that Pompeo was talking
Speaker 24: to the Justice Department and they said, well, what are
Speaker 24: you going to do with him once you kidnap him?
Speaker 24: You know, you can't just put him in a black site.
Speaker 24: Just wait and we'll get some charges ready and then
Speaker 24: you can take him from the embassy. So we can
Speaker 24: see the prosecution actually stemmed from this, you know, Pompeo
Speaker 24: going off the deep end and pursuing Wiki Leaks. So's
Speaker 24: it's really politically motivated, and I think that's a really
Speaker 24: good argument for the Biden administration to bring this to
Speaker 24: a close because it was a Pompeo fueled prosecution.
Speaker 4: There's been reporting in Australia that there was some hope
Speaker 4: over the last several months of some pape of a
Speaker 4: deal because he is an Australian citizen, and what business
Speaker 4: is it of the United States. It's like be like Pakistan,
Speaker 4: like extraditing me to Pakistan for violating Pakistan's media.
Speaker 5: Don't give them ideas.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's I think it is a real problem
Speaker 4: going forward for journalists who write on things around the world.
Speaker 4: Carolyn Kennedy, who's our ambassador to Australia, and met with
Speaker 4: a bunch of Australian officials and there was some hope
Speaker 4: that there could be some deal that would come out
Speaker 4: of that where Australia would say, look, this is not
Speaker 4: your problem, this is our problem.
Speaker 3: He's our citizen. Let us handle this.
Speaker 4: Yet they seem to be pushing ahead with this attempt
Speaker 4: to extradate him. Here, what's your understanding of the latest
Speaker 4: in those talks between Australia, this real essential ally of
Speaker 4: the United States and the US.
Speaker 24: Well, we're always pushing the Australian government to do more,
Speaker 24: and I think that's why this resolution that was passed
Speaker 24: through parliament is important because now the Prime Minister and
Speaker 24: the diplomats have the backing, you know, not just the
Speaker 24: Australian people who ninety percent want Julian to come home,
Speaker 24: but also the Australian Parliament. That's every single minister, Defense minister,
Speaker 24: you know, Home Affairs minister, all the ministry cabinet have
Speaker 24: all voted to bring Julian home. So I think that's
Speaker 24: a real escalation, if you will, or like a next
Speaker 24: step for the Australian government to push their allies, the
Speaker 24: US and the UK to bring this to an end.
Speaker 24: In terms of you know, these rumored deals, I think
Speaker 24: what would what would I'm not sure what a deal
Speaker 24: with you know, would you Julian pled guilty to journalism?
Speaker 24: I think is is you know, is that is that
Speaker 24: a potential deal or outcome that that the Department of
Speaker 24: Justice would be happy with. I'm not sure, but I
Speaker 24: think any any sort of deal Julian. We know that
Speaker 24: if Julian comes here that that he could potentially face
Speaker 24: a death penalty. That was part of the in the
Speaker 24: proceedings the judge us the prosecution could could you rule
Speaker 24: out death penalty if Julian's extradited and he could say no.
Speaker 24: He couldn't say yes.
Speaker 3: Why not? What's that? What's the capital crime? That espionage?
Speaker 24: Yes, so under the Espionage Act there is there's the
Speaker 24: room for the death penalty, so that the it is
Speaker 24: potential for it to be expanded. And you had the
Speaker 24: Shulter sentencing just recently where they have an all of
Speaker 24: life sentence so no parole and bringing out under the
Speaker 24: terrorism under the Patriot Act, so there is potential for
Speaker 24: it to expand, for other charges to be brought against
Speaker 24: Julian for other publications like the Bolt seven twenty seventeen,
Speaker 24: THEIA leagues. So that's a real concern and any sort
Speaker 24: of deal, would you know, we would say Julian cannot
Speaker 24: travel to the US.
Speaker 5: So now before even going to the US, there are
Speaker 5: still there is still at least one other appeals process
Speaker 5: depending on how this curing goes. Could you talk to
Speaker 5: USCAPE just a little bit about what the options might
Speaker 5: be going forward to prevent the extradition.
Speaker 24: After the hearing, well, so Julian has so the judges
Speaker 24: are now taken leave to make their decision on whether
Speaker 24: they'll approve an appeal or reject an appeal. If that
Speaker 24: appeal is rejected, Britain could move to extradite Julian quickly.
Speaker 24: They will order the extradition but Julian could apply to
Speaker 24: the European Court of Human Rights to have an emergency
Speaker 24: stop on that extradition and then put a case to
Speaker 24: the European courts. But that is you still have to
Speaker 24: make an application that still has to be approved. And
Speaker 24: I think there were sixty three applications in the previous
Speaker 24: year for this sort of thing and only only one
Speaker 24: was approved by the European courts. So that is not
Speaker 24: a guarantee that it will stop stop his extradition. But interestingly,
Speaker 24: the European courts heard Agnes Klaman from Amnesty Internationals say
Speaker 24: just they had a briefing on the Hill on Monday,
Speaker 24: and she said the European courts were able to order
Speaker 24: Russia after Navalni was poisoned with the Navuchok that they
Speaker 24: were able to order Russia to return him to Germany
Speaker 24: for treatment. So that's the sort of power the European
Speaker 24: courts have. And I don't think the United States would
Speaker 24: want the European courts interfering and ordering the.
Speaker 3: UK to return Julian into Australia.
Speaker 24: I think that would be extremely embarrassing for the Department
Speaker 24: of Justice.
Speaker 4: Of the key questions and the Appeals was whether or
Speaker 4: not Massage would be tortured by being placed in solitary
Speaker 4: confinement here in the United States, and the US had
Speaker 4: made you know, after they realized that was a problem
Speaker 4: for them in their case, they made some representations that
Speaker 4: they said, well, we won't do that. Those representations included
Speaker 4: a clause that said unless we decide that we need
Speaker 4: to do that. So what was the reaction from the
Speaker 4: judges to how the US would treat Assange if he
Speaker 4: was extraight and how important is that at this point
Speaker 4: in the decision making.
Speaker 24: So those weren't really going into a great deal in
Speaker 24: the court and didn't form a big part of Those
Speaker 24: assurances or so called assurances that are caveated, didn't form
Speaker 24: a large part of the hearing. It was really more
Speaker 24: about the political nature of the charges against Julian. There's
Speaker 24: a clause in the in the treaty with the United
Speaker 24: Kingdom and the US that says you cannot be extradited
Speaker 24: for political political charges, and espionage is inherently political. So
Speaker 24: there was a lot about that, But the prison conditions
Speaker 24: that Julian would face didn't really come up. It was
Speaker 24: more of those expanding of the charges and potential death
Speaker 24: penalty sentencing that that that were brought up in that hearing.
Speaker 4: Did you think that judges were kind of covering what
Speaker 4: would be a future negative ruling, you know, being more
Speaker 4: open and being more reasonable people so that when they
Speaker 4: finally extra date him, they'll seem like more reasonable people.
Speaker 4: Or was your guy telling you that maybe the pressure
Speaker 4: was actually getting to them and they might actually kind
Speaker 4: of do the right thing.
Speaker 24: Well, yeah, you know, yeah, I think a lot of
Speaker 24: it is having that external you know, that external facing
Speaker 24: engagement and looking to be engaged. I think that is
Speaker 24: a very big part of it. I think you're right,
Speaker 24: And the pressure and the monitoring has led them to
Speaker 24: have to do that. You know, previously they didn't have
Speaker 24: to because you know, we didn't have you know, Amnesty
Speaker 24: International was there, We had people from the UN observing
Speaker 24: as well as the German embassy, Australian embassy. A lot
Speaker 24: of eyes are on that court more so than that
Speaker 24: in previous hearings. So yeah, there is that element to
Speaker 24: it as well that they were just you know, entering
Speaker 24: into this sort of performance to make it seem like
Speaker 24: that they were really going to consider it and consider
Speaker 24: it properly. But I mean we'd see down the track
Speaker 24: when they make their decision. The defense has until the
Speaker 24: third of March to give more information and then they
Speaker 24: can make their decision anytime after that, so we'll see
Speaker 24: what appeal points they may allow or whether they reject.
Speaker 5: Then last question on mayan is just what can average
Speaker 5: people do to help? You know, lawmakers obviously play the
Speaker 5: big role in us the court is fate is in
Speaker 5: the hands of a court right now. But if average
Speaker 5: people want to learn their support to the cause the cause,
Speaker 5: what can they do game.
Speaker 24: We've been asking people to contact their representatives about this
Speaker 24: resolution nine thirty four and ask them to sign on
Speaker 24: to that resolution. Ask their representatives to sign on to that.
Speaker 24: You can also go to Sirange defense dot org. Join
Speaker 24: our subscriber list and you'll receive emails about what's going
Speaker 24: on around the country, different actions that you can take, donations,
Speaker 24: things like that. So Sannge Defense dot org is a
Speaker 24: good place to go for that sort of info.
Speaker 3: Excellent, sounds good.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, thank you for being here and bussive luck as
Speaker 5: you make your case to lawmakers in the next week
Speaker 5: or so.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. Thanks you jeers. So again, that
Speaker 3: was Assannge defense dot org.
Speaker 4: Go check go, check that out, join their mailing list
Speaker 4: and tell you know, Tell, tell your member of Congress
Speaker 4: signed nine thirty Four's right, it's the Resolute's the one.
Speaker 4: Nine thirty four put some pressure on the Biden administration
Speaker 4: for the once in their lives, do the right thing.
Speaker 5: That does it for us on today's edition of Counterpoints.
Speaker 5: Though Ryan will have had almost two weeks by next
Speaker 5: week's show to reacclimate to the non fish universe. So
Speaker 5: Ryan will be back here next week and maybe he'll
Speaker 5: be a little less out of sorts. We'll see, there's
Speaker 5: no way to be sure
Speaker 3: And we'll see you that either way.