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Speaker 1: We're waiting for President Trump to speak in the East

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Speaker 1: room with the Emir and until that comes, we are

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Speaker 1: going to be talking about a very important topic, which

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Speaker 1: is a group of sixteen Democratic attorneys general have begun

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Speaker 1: their legal fight against President Trump's ending the doccer program

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Speaker 1: by filling a lawsuit against him in federal court in Brooklyn, Washington.

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Speaker 1: State Attorney General Bob Ferguson said their lawsuit alleges that

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Speaker 1: Dreamers are being targeted for discriminatory treatment based on their

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Speaker 1: national origin. If the oha majority of Dreamers were Caucasian,

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Speaker 1: does anybody really think this? President? We have taken the action.

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Speaker 1: Earlier this year, Ferguson sued Trump over his travel ban,

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Speaker 1: which led a judge to block nationwide enforcement. Joining me

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Speaker 1: as Bloomberg News legal reporter Eric Lawson, who has been

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Speaker 1: following this. Eric, the lawsuit uses Trump's disparaging statements during

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Speaker 1: the campaign against Mexicans to show it was motivated by discrimination.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about that argument, which goes the lawsuit against

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Speaker 1: Trump's travel band where they used what he said. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it really does. They're using a very similar strategy, and

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Speaker 1: they have lots of material to work with because Trump

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Speaker 1: spoke so much during the campaign. Um, the complaint really

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Speaker 1: lays out several you know, several bullet points of different

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Speaker 1: things that Trump said along the way, including his in

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Speaker 1: his very first speech announcing his candidacy when he made

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Speaker 1: references to Mexicans being rapists and also he called them

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Speaker 1: bad ownbraise and later on said Mexico was sending their

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Speaker 1: worst because their government is so smart and does someonet

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Speaker 1: to take care of them. Um, many many things like that. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so that that seemed to work out well for in

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Speaker 1: the travel band cases. Some judges really said that while

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Speaker 1: presidents have a lot of authority in a lot of

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Speaker 1: different ways, that these comments showed some discriminatory intent, and

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Speaker 1: that's what they hope to show in this case in

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Speaker 1: the equal protection constitutional claim, that that can show some

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Speaker 1: animus as opposed to looking for an actual policy beneficial

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Speaker 1: to the United States. What are some of the other

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Speaker 1: arguments that they make that that you feel are strong.

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Speaker 1: I've heard about the argument under the administrative procedures at

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Speaker 1: which is a bit technical, but still yes. Basically that

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Speaker 1: says that the federal government can't put in place a

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Speaker 1: policy or make a change based just on animal animus

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Speaker 1: or sorry, based on being arbitrary or capricious, which you

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Speaker 1: know is basically another way that you could show that

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Speaker 1: a government was just trying to harm a particular group

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Speaker 1: in violation of a federal law. But um, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if that is going to be the stronger one

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Speaker 1: or the equal protection There's also another uh equal do

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Speaker 1: process claim that is about whether the federal government should

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Speaker 1: be able to use all the personal information that they

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Speaker 1: gathered about these DACA recipients that they voluntarily handed over

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Speaker 1: personal information about themselves to qualify for DOCCA. Now basically

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Speaker 1: they've handed the federal government everything they need to track

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Speaker 1: them down and deport them. So there's there's another do

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Speaker 1: that's a do process claim there. Um, So it's sort

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Speaker 1: of a mixed bag as as far as which one

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Speaker 1: of these might work in court. Under Obama, the Justice

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Speaker 1: Department concluded in fourteen that data is lawful. Will that

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Speaker 1: come back to haunt the department in any way, because

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Speaker 1: now they're saying that it's unlawful. Well, I suppose in

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Speaker 1: to a certain extent it will be up to judges

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Speaker 1: to decide it based on the whome mix of information.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, the Justice Department in many different types

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Speaker 1: of cases, not just these, not just the travel band,

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Speaker 1: not just immigration, but lots of different cases since Trump

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Speaker 1: was elected have sort of changed their position on things,

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Speaker 1: and that to some extent is to be expected. Uh. So,

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Speaker 1: I did speak with a few experts who said that

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Speaker 1: the d j's previous um decision, uh saying DACCA was

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Speaker 1: constitutional wasn't was based on too little information. There wasn't

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Speaker 1: enough information to make that decision. So and again DOCCA

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Speaker 1: was always supposed to be sort of temporary. So the

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Speaker 1: DJs does sort of get another bite at the apple here.

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Speaker 1: The lawsuit also claims economic harm. It argues that the

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Speaker 1: individual states will be harmed by the potential deportation of

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Speaker 1: thousands of tax paying residents and different kinds of economic harm.

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Speaker 1: How good is that argument? That is one that's the

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Speaker 1: experts I've spoken to have haven't weighed in as much about,

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Speaker 1: but it certainly is would seem to give them standing

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Speaker 1: to sue at least and for a judge to look

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Speaker 1: at whether or not it's legitimate. Um. But they don't

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Speaker 1: actually put a lot of work into describing those those

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Speaker 1: claims in the complaints themselves. Uh. They just merely state

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Speaker 1: that basically some of these people will no longer be

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Speaker 1: able to get work uh in based insurance, and which

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Speaker 1: will increase expenditures for the state for healthcare that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing as well. Several major companies intend to join

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Speaker 1: these laws suits and to Microsoft and Amazon have pledged

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Speaker 1: to pay the legal expenses of any employees who may

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Speaker 1: become vulnerable to deportation. Where does that How does that

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Speaker 1: impact the lawsuit? I mean is it's not a need

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Speaker 1: for money. I wouldn't think with all the states involves

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Speaker 1: it just a uh uh you know, a statement that okay,

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Speaker 1: government business is behind this. Well, it's definitely a statements.

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Speaker 1: And even before the lawsuits were filed, these companies made

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Speaker 1: their views clear to the President and the administration, urging

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Speaker 1: them to leave DOCTA alone and for the sake of diversity.

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Speaker 1: And Amazon really in their filing they said, um that,

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Speaker 1: you know, increasing diversity in the workplace is simply better

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Speaker 1: for business. And that's essentially what all of these companies

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Speaker 1: are saying, in particularly in the tech industry, and judge

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Speaker 1: is always going to look at those and take that

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Speaker 1: into consideration. But um, they're not yet parties to the case,

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Speaker 1: and that they're basically just you know, making their opinions

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Speaker 1: known at this point, but I'm sure they're going to

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Speaker 1: be involved very closely. Attorney General Jeff Sessions, in announcing

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Speaker 1: that DACO would be withdrawn, said that the power to

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Speaker 1: protect young immigrants from deportation lays with Congress alone. But

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Speaker 1: then Trump tweeted eight hours after that announcement that if

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Speaker 1: Congress doesn't act, quote, I will revisit that issue. So

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Speaker 1: is he contradicting his own attorney general and in by

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Speaker 1: doing so, does that undermine the argument? Well, this is

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Speaker 1: an attorney general. He hasn't had any problem insulting on Twitter,

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Speaker 1: So it's uh, and it's not the first time he's

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Speaker 1: sort of flip flopped on something pretty quickly. But I

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Speaker 1: think that he's giving a light, a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a lifeline to DOCCO recipients here, um, giving them a

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Speaker 1: little bit of reason to hope. It's hard hard to

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Speaker 1: predict what Trump will do, but he at least is

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Speaker 1: leaving it open that maybe he will take some action

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Speaker 1: if Congress dozen in six months, um, which I'm or

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Speaker 1: gives some amount of hope actually to some recipients. You know,

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Speaker 1: the all the arguments around executive orders seem to me

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Speaker 1: to be contradictory because Trump argues against Obama's executive orders

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Speaker 1: as Jeff Sessions does, and yet Trump has had more

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Speaker 1: executive orders in the first three months, and I think

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Speaker 1: he's up to more than forty executive actions, and and

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Speaker 1: he promotes them as accomplishments of his term right and

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Speaker 1: to his supporters, I'm sure they probably see them that

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Speaker 1: way too. But the problem with executive orders is that

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Speaker 1: just as you can easily implement them, you can easily

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Speaker 1: take them away, so um, and that's what he's doing

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Speaker 1: with a lot of Obama's orders. And and you know,

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Speaker 1: if Congress had passed legislation similar to what Obama wanted,

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Speaker 1: then this wouldn't be as much of an issue. But

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Speaker 1: one problem with dak Off as far as the recipients

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Speaker 1: are concerned, is that it wasn't really an executive order.

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Speaker 1: It was more of an executive directive to homeland security, um.

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Speaker 1: And really that made it even easier to reverse. And

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Speaker 1: it was always intended to be temporary, a stopgap measure

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Speaker 1: until Congress could act, and unfortunately Congress did not act

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Speaker 1: for these people. So in a sense, some of the

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Speaker 1: experts we've spoken to who said who have said that uh,

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Speaker 1: Trump has a good case here, are basing that opinion

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Speaker 1: on on the fact that this that DOCCA was always

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Speaker 1: intended to be temporary, even that's how Obama envisioned it,

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Speaker 1: and that Congress was supposed to do something and hasn't,

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Speaker 1: so that that that does give Trump the upper upper

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Speaker 1: hand and some uh in the eyes of some experts,

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Speaker 1: including DOCCA supporters. I've spoken to you, well, I was

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Speaker 1: that was my next question because from everything I've read,

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Speaker 1: most attorneys and professors give you know, if they're giving odds,

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Speaker 1: give the odds to the Justice Department here as having

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Speaker 1: a stronger case. Yeah, and it's also possible that there

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Speaker 1: could be a mixed ruling of some sort if you

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Speaker 1: if you just focus in on the due process claim

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Speaker 1: about the use of their personal information, it's possible that

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Speaker 1: Trump could come out on top here and DOCA could

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Speaker 1: go away, but that the government might somehow be prohibited

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Speaker 1: from using the personal information. Although that's it would be

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Speaker 1: very hard to figure out how you would keep that

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Speaker 1: from happening, and I imagine it would be tempting to

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Speaker 1: anyone at ice who wanted to use it to just

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Speaker 1: go door to door. But um, you know it really

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Speaker 1: is a mixed bag here, because if you you also

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Speaker 1: have these potentially discriminatory comments, which could undermine the upper

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Speaker 1: hand that Trump had. Uh. In the eyes of some judges,

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Speaker 1: they might say, if you hadn't said all these things

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Speaker 1: about Mexicans, then maybe we would give it to you,

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Speaker 1: But since you did, we question your intent. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is just one possibility. And the Attorney General of

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Speaker 1: California is not involved in this suit, he wants to

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Speaker 1: file his own lawsuit explain the reasons. Well, I haven't

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Speaker 1: spoken to but my my colleague has in San Francisco, Cardike,

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Speaker 1: and he's he's uh. I think the idea is that

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Speaker 1: California has so many doctor recipients that they just are

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Speaker 1: are going their own way. And we'll have to wait

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Speaker 1: and see. Nothing has been filed yet, but they certainly

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Speaker 1: have far more doctor recipients than New York, for example.

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Speaker 1: Um and they may be able to use those numbers

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Speaker 1: to craft a legal strategy more specific to their issues.

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Speaker 1: Um so. And also I guess if you have more

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Speaker 1: than one case, then you have more than one chance

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Speaker 1: to succeed. So also, I just want to remind people

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Speaker 1: of what's happened. And because Attorney General Sessions was mentioning

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Speaker 1: this was, you know, not legal, and it's been through

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Speaker 1: the courts other you know, justice impartant people have said

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Speaker 1: it's been to the Fifth Circuit and to the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: But tell us what happened at the Supreme Court. I'm

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Speaker 1: not actually okay. It was a four to four. It

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Speaker 1: was a four to four split. It so it affirmed

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Speaker 1: the Fifth Circuit which had said that that the the

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Speaker 1: other program, DAPPA was not legal, but it just affirmed

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Speaker 1: it because it was a four to four split. Now

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Speaker 1: if that went up to the Supreme Court, now, I

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Speaker 1: think we'd probably have a different situation. It might be

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Speaker 1: more likely five to four against. It's certainly possible. I

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Speaker 1: think we'll probably find out. But again, like it's it's

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Speaker 1: does make it more difficult to predict how justices are

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Speaker 1: going to come out on something when you have this

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Speaker 1: unusual elements to these cases, which is the animous angle

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Speaker 1: um with the travel ban. The Supreme Court when they

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Speaker 1: hear that in October, they're gonna have they're gonna have

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Speaker 1: to take into consideration all of these comments that the

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Speaker 1: president made and weigh those against his presidential power. And

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Speaker 1: the same thing is going to happen here. We are

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Speaker 1: looking at the East Room right now where all the

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Speaker 1: reporters have gathered and we're waiting for President Trump to

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Speaker 1: appear with the Emir of Kuwait. They have been meeting

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Speaker 1: outside outside in the White House and uh apparently talking

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Speaker 1: about the situation, the diplomatic crisis, which is three months

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Speaker 1: old in the um Arabian Gulf. So we have been

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Speaker 1: talking with Eric Larson, who is a Bloomberg News reporter

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Speaker 1: about the DOCCA program. You know, Eric, I think something

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Speaker 1: that is also so confusing is, you know President Trump's

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Speaker 1: tweets at different points. We we mentioned the one point

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Speaker 1: where he said, um, that he could revisit it. He also,

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Speaker 1: in response to Nancy Pelosi, said to them, don't worry

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Speaker 1: about the next six months, when there was guidance from

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Speaker 1: one of the departments telling them to get themselves ready.

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Speaker 1: Right right, Um, it's again it's another case of mixed messages.

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Speaker 1: As we've noted in some of our coverage, Trump has

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Speaker 1: also praised specifically the DOCCA dreamers as they're called. He

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Speaker 1: has said nice things about them, especially because he has

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Speaker 1: people coming to Adam from the right and the left

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Speaker 1: praising the streamers who have, some of whom have done

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Speaker 1: incredible things, uh, including one of those Houston firefighters who

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Speaker 1: was rescuing people from Hurricane Harvey, who's a dreamer. UM.

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Speaker 1: So I think he does feel compelled to try and

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Speaker 1: balance out his actual policy with saying nice things and

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Speaker 1: tweets on occasion. But it's the policy that's going to

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Speaker 1: end up winning. UM. But it's you know, speaking of

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Speaker 1: his tweets, several of them are listed in the complaints. UM,

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Speaker 1: not specifically about dreamers, but when, for example, during a campaign,

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Speaker 1: there were protesters holding Mexican flags, presumably their Mexican or origin,

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Speaker 1: but he tweeted and referred to them as criminals and

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Speaker 1: thugs for no other reason than they were standing there protesting,

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Speaker 1: holding Mexican flags, and he made that assumption. So it's

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Speaker 1: it's just one another. It's just another tweet that is

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Speaker 1: going to be used against him in court and we'll

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Speaker 1: see how the judge weighs it. Though. The judge and

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Speaker 1: then probably the appellate for and then probably the umband

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Speaker 1: Court and then the Supreme Court. Because it seems like

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Speaker 1: this is something that is is not going to go away.

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Speaker 1: The logical thing would be for Congress to pass some

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Speaker 1: kind of legislation, and it seems like they could pass

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Speaker 1: something that's very narrow, and there's a lot of pressure

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Speaker 1: to Yet a lot of people are not hopeful that

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Speaker 1: that's going to happen. Well, a lot of people also

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Speaker 1: don't want that to happen because, uh, people talk a

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Speaker 1: lot about how Trump many of his decisions are directed

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Speaker 1: at his base, and his base is less interested in

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Speaker 1: Congress passing a Dreamer Act than it is in deporting them.

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Speaker 1: Presumably that's what a lot of people want um to happen.

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Speaker 1: And even fact, the story that we wrote yesterday about

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Speaker 1: the lawsuit, I got lots of emails from readers, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of them were saying they should be deported period.

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Speaker 1: So if they see Congress pass a law protecting them,

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Speaker 1: they're not necessarily going to be happy about that. It

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Speaker 1: might let Trump put the blame on them though. It's

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Speaker 1: it's it's odd because my looking forward, I would imagine

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Speaker 1: that when you see these young people being deported, who

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Speaker 1: you know, speak as you and I speak, and without

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Speaker 1: an accent, and and look just like everyone else in

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Speaker 1: the country, that it's it's going to be there's going

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Speaker 1: to be a backlash one with things, So especially when

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Speaker 1: you think about how well placed so many of these

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Speaker 1: dreamers are, Like we were discussing earlier with the companies

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Speaker 1: that have are supporting the Democratic Attorneys General. They they

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Speaker 1: have Dreamer employees who have you know, are making these

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Speaker 1: well known companies part of what they are. And if

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Speaker 1: you they start to see these people getting pulled out

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Speaker 1: of their jobs and and and thrown out, it's just

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Speaker 1: going to be bad pr It's one of the things.

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Speaker 1: So it's possible that Trump might want to please is

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Speaker 1: base by pushing for DOCCA to be rescinded, but then

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Speaker 1: also get Congress to protect them so that it's he's

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Speaker 1: not the one scene to be doing it. So potentially

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Speaker 1: would be a good strategy that will work out for

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Speaker 1: him and the dreamers. And we are waiting for President

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Speaker 1: Trump to appear in the East Room of the White

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Speaker 1: House for a joint news conference with the Emir of Kuwait,

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Speaker 1: and this will be his fifteen joint news conference with

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Speaker 1: a foreign leader, and um I am willing to if

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Speaker 1: he does take questions. I think one of the top

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Speaker 1: questions will be about what we've been talking about, which

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Speaker 1: is DOCCA and the lawsuit that he has said that

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Speaker 1: he does not regret his decision, but as we've mentioned,

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Speaker 1: there has there have been some contrary uh tweets about

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Speaker 1: it um in the in the Justice Department. Is this

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Speaker 1: this was a political decision made by the Justice Department

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Speaker 1: or or was it Jeff Sessions looking at the law

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Speaker 1: and thinking that they couldn't win if these attorneys general

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Speaker 1: from Conservatives day including Texas leading said that they were

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Speaker 1: going to sue over DOCCA if they didn't end DOCCA.

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Speaker 1: So was it a political decision or was it a

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Speaker 1: legal decision? Well, I suppose it could be both. Sessions

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Speaker 1: has always been very strict on immigration, and he's never

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Speaker 1: been shy about making those positions very clear. So I'm

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Speaker 1: sure that when he became Attorney general this was one

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Speaker 1: of his many immigration related priorities, and Trump was behind

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Speaker 1: him on it, presumably. So um As far as whether

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Speaker 1: it's political or legal, I honestly I think that I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty sure he believes the laws behind him on this.

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Speaker 1: As we discussed before with the sort of the weakness

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Speaker 1: of Obama's directive on DACA, it wasn't even an executive order,

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Speaker 1: it's not legislation, and and presidents do have a lot

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Speaker 1: of authority, so he may just simply see this as

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Speaker 1: a matter of a president. A president using his authority

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Speaker 1: to undo something put in place by his predecessor that

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Speaker 1: he disagrees with. Rich Larson, thanks so much for talking

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Speaker 1: to us about all the implications of dhaka, which will

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Speaker 1: be talking to you about more in the future. I'm

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Speaker 1: June Grosso. This is Bloomberg.