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Speaker 1: On the Doll Cast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zef invest start

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Speaker 1: changing it with the bec Del Cast. Hello Jamie, Hello Caitlynn,

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Speaker 1: it's me. Um. You know not. I'm not a witch.

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Speaker 1: But do you want some chocolate? Do I want something? No,

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Speaker 1: I'm just in my treehouse here. Don't worry. I didn't

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Speaker 1: poison it with any formula that's going to turn you

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Speaker 1: into a mouse. Okay, do you have a snake? Do

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Speaker 1: you have a snake? Um? Yeah, I have a snake.

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Speaker 1: But that's just because I know you love playing with snakes. Okay, pointed, Um,

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Speaker 1: and none of your business what I do in my

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Speaker 1: spare time. Well, I guess I'll I'll think about it,

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Speaker 1: but only if you promised to only appear in one

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Speaker 1: scene and never come back. Sure, Okay, yeah, yeah, Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the Bechtel Cast. Another perfect introduction, flawless, no notes.

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Speaker 1: My name is Jamie Loft, as my name is Caitlin Dronte,

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Speaker 1: and this is our show in which we examine movies

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Speaker 1: through an intersectional feminist lens using the beck Told test

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Speaker 1: as a jumping off point to initiate a larger discussion

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Speaker 1: representation in cinema. Do you have one of those Twitter

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Speaker 1: like scary Halloween names? Do you have you ever done that?

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Speaker 1: I've never done that. I have done it in the past.

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Speaker 1: I forgot to do it this year, Slash couldn't think

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Speaker 1: of anything clever. And have you have you done? I

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Speaker 1: know you've done Caitlin Bante, right, Bante? Yeah, which doesn't

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Speaker 1: even really make sense. I had one well, one year

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Speaker 1: I did nine tip Dracula because that is an anagram

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Speaker 1: of my name. Who could forget nine tip Jack? And

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Speaker 1: then there was another one I did that I was like,

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Speaker 1: I'll never top this. This is genius and I'm so smart,

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Speaker 1: but I couldn't. I can't remember what it was. So

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Speaker 1: this is not a good story. I've never I've never

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Speaker 1: had one. I don't I've never been able. But also

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Speaker 1: I'm notoriously like not good with puns. I just don't

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Speaker 1: have a good brain for it. And so I'm like,

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Speaker 1: maybe there's one that's just been sitting in front of

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Speaker 1: me my whole fucking life, But I've never Boo doesn't

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Speaker 1: fit any any damn place in my name. Ghost doesn't

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Speaker 1: fit what rhymes with Jamie scared, scare me loftus scar

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Speaker 1: that sucks. That sucks. I hate it about it. Wait, okay,

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Speaker 1: I actually, um, I think I can come around to this.

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Speaker 1: Um Okay, can I tell you what the Becteal test is?

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Speaker 1: Please at all pass the Bechtel test, by the way,

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Speaker 1: which is just proof that it doesn't. Although you could

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Speaker 1: argue that that was not a conversation that moved the

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Speaker 1: episode forward in a meaningful way. So I disagree. I

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Speaker 1: completely disagree. So so. The Bechdel test um is a

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Speaker 1: media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, often called

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Speaker 1: the Bechdel Wallace test um. It was originally made as

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Speaker 1: a kind of one off joke metric in Alican Becktel's

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Speaker 1: comic Dikes to Watch Out For which here's your occasional

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Speaker 1: reminder that you should read that comic. I have the

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Speaker 1: full collection and it fucking rocks. And there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of different versions of this metric. The one we use

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Speaker 1: requires that two people of a marginalized gender with names

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Speaker 1: such as Caitlin Bronte and Scare Me Loft have a

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Speaker 1: conversation about something other than a man for more than

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Speaker 1: two lines of dialogue, and it does need to move

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Speaker 1: the podcast the Bechtel Cast forward in order to count

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Speaker 1: this this movie. Today we're covering the Witches n Um,

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Speaker 1: not to be confused with The Witches twenty, which no

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Speaker 1: longer exists, has been wiped from the record, and I

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Speaker 1: have like just a little it doesn't have to do

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Speaker 1: with intersectional feminism, but it does have to do with

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Speaker 1: predatory capitalism, so sort of it does. So we'll get

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Speaker 1: there later. But nine nine Angelic Houston The Witches is

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Speaker 1: the topic of today's discussion, and I thought it would

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Speaker 1: pass the Bucktel test a little more handily than it does,

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Speaker 1: I'll be quite honest. But discussion for later, Jamie, what

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Speaker 1: is your relationship to this film slash intellectual property? Nothing?

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Speaker 1: Nothing at all. I don't I I couldn't tell you

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Speaker 1: why I didn't watch this movie growing up. But I

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Speaker 1: have no nostalgic attachment to it. I think the most

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Speaker 1: nostalgic attachment I have to this movie is just the

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Speaker 1: idea of Angelica Houston. And that's a powerful thing. Yes,

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Speaker 1: And I always like she is so campy, and like,

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Speaker 1: I think she's really fun in this movie. I think

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Speaker 1: it is like I didn't know Jim Henson was involved

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Speaker 1: in like I truly knew basically nothing. I just knew

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Speaker 1: it was a World Doll book that I never read,

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Speaker 1: and this is a movie that I've never seen, and so, uh,

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Speaker 1: this has been a request we've been getting for some time,

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Speaker 1: and I think we there was an uptick in it

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Speaker 1: when the reboot was released, which I've only seen clips of,

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Speaker 1: but is by all accounts so like also whatever not

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Speaker 1: good and no one has any nostalgic attachment to it either,

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Speaker 1: so whatever, So Mecas is in his flop era, baby,

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Speaker 1: he did, gosh, she's been in his flop era because

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Speaker 1: what what is it? We he welcomed us to Marwin

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Speaker 1: and we were like, I'm I'm weaving and then what

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Speaker 1: did he do it? He said what about Anne Hathaway

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Speaker 1: and the Witches? And You're like that sounds so Phoebe

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Speaker 1: Waller Bridges right there, like what do you? What are

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Speaker 1: you doing? And then most recently he was like, how

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Speaker 1: about Pinocchio? We were okay, no thanks, but and then

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Speaker 1: we were like but also but also soft plug for

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Speaker 1: the Matreon when we will be covering the Pinocchio Wars,

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Speaker 1: which Robert Zemeckis in his flop, Era has already managed,

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Speaker 1: I think, to lose in advance. The battle has not

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Speaker 1: even started and he's already lost. Because I everyone hated

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Speaker 1: that damn movie and it looks so scary. This movie

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Speaker 1: also looks so scary, but in a very different way.

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Speaker 1: I will say, right at the top, apologies to people

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Speaker 1: with a nostalgic attachment to the spoofy. I did not

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Speaker 1: like this movie. Uh and I I think it shows

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Speaker 1: all of and this is like been criticism since the

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Speaker 1: book came out. The book was released in eighty three.

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Speaker 1: We famously don't read books, but I did research the

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Speaker 1: differences and adaptation changes, and then this came out in

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Speaker 1: and rold All, who we'll get back to. We've just

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Speaker 1: we've covered we covered this last year on our Matilda episode,

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Speaker 1: but it is even more relevant in this adaptation than

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Speaker 1: it was in Matilda. I think of just this is

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Speaker 1: just like late Era Roll Doll, like all of his

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Speaker 1: famous prejudices against women and Jewish people in particular, and

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Speaker 1: Jewish women in particular are just all like cannon to

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Speaker 1: the story. And I h Angelica Houston is great, but

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Speaker 1: I just really had a hard time with this one, Caitlin,

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Speaker 1: what's your history with the Witches? Nine? I had not

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Speaker 1: seen this movie either, something that it seems like I

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Speaker 1: would have seen as a kid growing up. But I

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Speaker 1: don't think it was on TV a lot. Well, yes,

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Speaker 1: you didn't watch a lot of TV and I didn't

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Speaker 1: even have cable. Yeah, and I didn't watch much TV

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Speaker 1: as a kid. Also, I think, like my family is

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Speaker 1: just like not a spooky movie family. I missed a

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Speaker 1: lot of spooky movie Like I had never seen hocus

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Speaker 1: Pocus until well into my adulthood. Not that that's like

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Speaker 1: a scary, but like even just like I mean it

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Speaker 1: is like kid, kid, kid, And I think this movie

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Speaker 1: is like kids scary, oh my god. Yeah, and also

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Speaker 1: like kind of adult scary. Also, I do think like

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Speaker 1: there's so much wrong with like I don't like this movie.

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Speaker 1: I do think it was a kind of cool, bold

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Speaker 1: and interesting choice cool bold interesting. Wow, good words um

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Speaker 1: that they thank you that they hired a horror like

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Speaker 1: a famous horror director to do this movie. Like he

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Speaker 1: took the assignment and he's like, I'm just gonna do

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Speaker 1: this like I do my grown up movies. Is that cool?

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Speaker 1: And you're like, I don't know. Um. The main thing

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Speaker 1: I knew about this movie going in is that it

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Speaker 1: traumatized every child who had ever seen it. And I

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Speaker 1: understand why because the horror imagery in this movie is

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Speaker 1: horrific and I brutally yeah. Yeah, And I'm sure if

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Speaker 1: I had seen it as a child, I would have

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Speaker 1: been similarly traumatized. And I read that the director Nicholas

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Speaker 1: Rogue cut scenes from the movie that he thought would

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Speaker 1: be too scary for children after he saw his son's

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Speaker 1: reaction to the original HUT, so it was going to

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Speaker 1: be even scarier and he cut some of it out.

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Speaker 1: That is so gnarly. Uh. I want like just being

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Speaker 1: the kid of a horror director and then just being like,

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Speaker 1: all right, so if this trauma like you're you being

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Speaker 1: traumatized today could say I have other children for being

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Speaker 1: traumatized in this exact same way. Do you accept the assignment?

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Speaker 1: That's so all. I want Nicholas Rogue's kids to tell

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Speaker 1: us what was in the scenes. That's how what would

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Speaker 1: they what? I guess? Okay, I don't know. Sorry finished, So,

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Speaker 1: so your history is so I hadn't seen the movie,

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Speaker 1: but I did read the book as a kid. Oh,

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Speaker 1: we had a few Roal Doll books lying around the house,

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Speaker 1: and so I probably read this book when I was

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Speaker 1: maybe like ten or so. I also read Charlie and

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Speaker 1: the Chocolate Factory around that time, but I think those

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Speaker 1: are the only two Roal Doll books I ever read.

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Speaker 1: But I liked the book The Witches, and I thought

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Speaker 1: it was very scary reading it as a kid. Um,

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Speaker 1: So I I have, I would say, not even nostalgic

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Speaker 1: attachment to this story. But I went into the movie

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Speaker 1: knowing what it was going to be about and what

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Speaker 1: would happen in it, and remember the story pretty well,

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Speaker 1: so like when the events of the movie were unfolding,

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, yeah, that does happen. The ending

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Speaker 1: is um quite different in the book. We'll talk about that,

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Speaker 1: but uh yeah, I um, I kind of I mean

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Speaker 1: for all the traumatic imagery that Nicholas rogue because he

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Speaker 1: was really a cinematographer, but like, yeah, like for all

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Speaker 1: the traumatic imagery he offers up. I kind of liked

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Speaker 1: that they changed the ending of like because the I mean,

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize the ending of the book is brutal.

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Speaker 1: I think that that's how the reboot ends, where it's

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Speaker 1: just like what they're like, the kid is going to

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Speaker 1: be a mouse forever and he has nine years to

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Speaker 1: live and he knows that. You're like, oh yeah, rough. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So all this to say, I had I was familiar

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Speaker 1: with this story going in, but I hadn't seen the movie.

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Speaker 1: Definitely would have been traumatized by the imagery as a kid,

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Speaker 1: because as even as an adult, I was like, oh my,

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Speaker 1: like the transformations, like the scenes of like humans transforming

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Speaker 1: into mice. That is some of the scariest ship I've

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Speaker 1: ever seen. It's so yeah, this movie would have fucked

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Speaker 1: me up. I'm glad I didn't see it when as

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Speaker 1: a kid. Yeah, um, shall I do the recap and

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Speaker 1: we'll go from there. Let's do the recap and then

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Speaker 1: you know what, let's go from there. Okay, fine, we

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Speaker 1: will Okay, now we're fighting. Okay. So we open on

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Speaker 1: a grandmother telling her grandson Luke, who is we were

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Speaker 1: like also recently talking about how we do not know

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Speaker 1: how old children are. I guess he's like nine. I

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Speaker 1: guess he's canonically nine. Okay, Oh, maybe I'm better at

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Speaker 1: this than I thought. She is telling Luke about witches.

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Speaker 1: They are evil, they hate children, They basically hunt children

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Speaker 1: for sport, and she's lost a finger. Yes to to

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Speaker 1: a witch encounter. We press zoom. Maybe that's the scene

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Speaker 1: that are cut. Maybe you got to see Angelica Houston

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Speaker 1: bite Grandma's finger off. Maybe so. Grandma tells Luke that

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Speaker 1: which is dress in ordinary clothes. They look like ordinary women,

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Speaker 1: they live ordinary lives, but there are ways to spot

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Speaker 1: a real witch. One. They're bald, so they wear wigs

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Speaker 1: which itch and give them a scalp rash. Now, if

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Speaker 1: the baldest women aren't in charge in this movie, I mean,

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Speaker 1: this movie follows the rule. It enforces the rule. It Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I didn't even exist when this movie came out and

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Speaker 1: people were following that damn rule. Yeah. Um. The second

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Speaker 1: telltale sign is that their eyes have like a purplish

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Speaker 1: hue to them real which is also don't have toes,

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Speaker 1: and so their their feet are just square, so they

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Speaker 1: never wear pointed shoes and sure I guess uh. They

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Speaker 1: also have a very keen sense of smell and they

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Speaker 1: can smell children, and children smell very bad to them,

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Speaker 1: and the cleaner child is the stinkier they are to

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Speaker 1: a witch. Also, Grandma tells Luke about the grand high witch,

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Speaker 1: which is like the leader, which is the leader of

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Speaker 1: all the witches. Get it anyway, I get it. I

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Speaker 1: get it. So Grandma also tells this story about her

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Speaker 1: childhood best friend named Erica, who was abducted by a witch.

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Speaker 1: So we get all this backstory about witches. You know,

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Speaker 1: I was thinking, I was, I was trying to put

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Speaker 1: myself in like baby brain, and I think that I

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Speaker 1: would have been afraid of the horror imagery. But I

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Speaker 1: but I wonder like and for I am genuinely curious

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Speaker 1: for for those who have a nostalgic attachment to this movie,

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Speaker 1: were you more scared by the horror imagery? Or were

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Speaker 1: you more scared by ever looking at a painting again

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Speaker 1: and ever seeing someone in a painting being like that

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Speaker 1: they're going to die there? Yeah, that was the scary.

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Speaker 1: I was like, that would have sucked me up. That's

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Speaker 1: very current because I had that haunted Mandy Moore poster right,

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, and she still lives there in your poster,

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Speaker 1: in my poster. Yeah. It's one of It's one of

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Speaker 1: those conspiracy theories where the actress who's been on This

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Speaker 1: is Us for five years is a is a double

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Speaker 1: switched out by the government. The real Mandy Moore lives

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Speaker 1: in your poster still in my childhood bedroom. Yeah, yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: I believe it. Yeah. Okay, So one day Luke's parents

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Speaker 1: die in an accident, so Grandma becoming this batman him right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Luke wayne over here with his parents being like, they're

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Speaker 1: like bye, and then and then like the police have

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Speaker 1: her dress or something. I was like, what happened to that?

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure what we were looking at, but Luca

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Speaker 1: Luke to them. Luca's orphaned and Grandma becomes his primary caregiver,

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Speaker 1: so she takes him to England, where a woman with

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Speaker 1: purple eyes tries to give a snake to Luke and

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Speaker 1: a chocolate bar, and I'm like, is that a Willy

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Speaker 1: Wonka chocolate bar? Are we? You know? Are we what's

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Speaker 1: happening here? We're going to really? I mean we talked

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Speaker 1: about it until the Tupit just like the way rold

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Speaker 1: Doll turns food into weapons is so oh gosh. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I will say this first witch. I liked her a

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Speaker 1: lot and I she had perfect teeth. Okay, yeah, another

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Speaker 1: telltale sign of witches. I have shitty I think I

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Speaker 1: just have gum disease. So when someone has nice teeth,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, who are you a millionaire? Okay? So

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Speaker 1: then on Luke's birthday, Grandma gives him some mice, which

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Speaker 1: he names William and Mary. Horrible gift, I gift bad

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Speaker 1: mice names. There, I said it are they kids? I

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Speaker 1: don't think because they can't talk. They're just mice, right,

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Speaker 1: And they're not from the Henson the Creature the creature shop, right, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're just another yeah. But oh no. Grandma collapses, she

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Speaker 1: has fallen ill. Turns out she has diabetes. But when

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Speaker 1: she recovers, she takes Luke and his mice on a

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Speaker 1: little trip to a hotel by the sea to Casa

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Speaker 1: day Mr Bean. Mr Bean is the hotel manager. Also

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Speaker 1: at this hotel, dozens of women show up for the

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Speaker 1: convention for the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty

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Speaker 1: to Children. And that's the most prepositions I've ever said

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Speaker 1: in a single sentence. That is that of all the

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Speaker 1: that gotta chuckle out of me, because I was like,

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Speaker 1: that's the witch there? Um, did you pick up on?

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Speaker 1: This is so goofy? But they made a diabetes joke

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Speaker 1: in this movie. I was like, that's the most there's

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Speaker 1: not a lot of things about this movie outside of

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Speaker 1: the wild number of tropes that are used in a

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Speaker 1: bad way. But like, this movie isn't like especially dated

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Speaker 1: to me. I guess a little bit with the clothes,

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Speaker 1: but most world all movies kind of feel a little

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Speaker 1: bit like out of time. But they just drop a

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Speaker 1: diabetes joke, like yeah, and that commercial didn't exist till

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Speaker 1: I was like, damn, you're showing your hands. You couldn't

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Speaker 1: you couldn't resist making a nine year old said diabetes

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Speaker 1: tomfoolery indeed. Okay, So Angelica Houston has entered the film.

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Speaker 1: She seems to be the leader of this royal Society

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Speaker 1: for the Prevention of cruel teacher children, and she's so

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Speaker 1: hot and she's very hot. Her name is Miss Ernst,

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Speaker 1: and the women adore her. And then there's some little

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Speaker 1: clues that seems like maybe these are not women who

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Speaker 1: want to prevent cruelty to children, but maybe they want

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Speaker 1: to cause cruelty to children because maybe they're witches. Oh

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Speaker 1: there is I mean, I I you know, exploiting the

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Speaker 1: inherent sinister nature of a hotel convention is kind of fun. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a fun idea. Um, I'm trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: is this this movie came out, this is the year

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Speaker 1: before The Adams Family, So this is I feel like

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Speaker 1: Angela Houston's She's just she's just warming up for the

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Speaker 1: main events for more Tisia. Yeah, definitely. Okay. So then

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Speaker 1: Luke explores the hotel. He meets another boy named Bruno.

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Speaker 1: Luke gets yelled at by Mr Bean for having loose mice,

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Speaker 1: and we're literally like Mr Bean and you can't you

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Speaker 1: can't done see it? Yeah, And then we're also like,

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Speaker 1: I guess this is for all these these mice are

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Speaker 1: like foreshadowing Chekhov's Mouse. Yeah, okay. So Luke is like

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Speaker 1: running around the hotel and he winds up in this

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Speaker 1: big room where the women from the Society for the

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Speaker 1: Prevention of Cruelty to Children a k a. The Witches

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Speaker 1: come in and gather for a meeting, and Luke is

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Speaker 1: hiding in the corner and he watches as all the

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Speaker 1: women remove their shoes and their wigs because guess what,

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Speaker 1: confirmed they are witches. I thought it was really funny

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Speaker 1: that she has her like Angela he used, and takes

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Speaker 1: her face halfway off before being like, oh wait, is

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Speaker 1: the door closed. That was when I started coming up

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Speaker 1: with my um tory story theory, where I'm just like,

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Speaker 1: this is applying the lodge of toy story, but instead

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Speaker 1: it's just leaving a bunch of women over thirty five

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Speaker 1: in a room alone, and then they turned into evil witches.

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Speaker 1: And that is true. That does happen in real life.

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Speaker 1: So miss Ernst takes off her face mask because she's

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Speaker 1: the Grand High Witch with a scary face. Miss Ernst

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Speaker 1: is like, you witches are a disgrace. You're not killing

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Speaker 1: enough children, and that's why I created formula eighties six,

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Speaker 1: which turns children into mice. Another toy story parallel. Much

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Speaker 1: like the character said, miss Ernst is a scientific genius

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Speaker 1: who just needs her energy directed in a more positive

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Speaker 1: direction where yeah, she could really help people, much like

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Speaker 1: Sid's parents should have just been like, you're a creative kid,

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Speaker 1: let's let's take you to it after school program. Anywow, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm starting to see the toy story parallels. That's it.

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Speaker 1: That's the end of the similarities. Yeah, okay, So she's

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Speaker 1: talking about this formula that turns children into mice, and

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Speaker 1: she demonstrates it on that kid Bruno, who she has

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Speaker 1: lured into the room with chocolate. She has already given

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Speaker 1: him the formula. It works on like a time delay,

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Speaker 1: and then the witches and Luke, who is still hiding

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Speaker 1: in the corner, watch as Bruno transforms into a mouse.

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Speaker 1: That transformation is also like truly one of the scariest

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Speaker 1: things I've ever seen. Yeah, I mean that the raw

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Speaker 1: fucking body horror and this um is just like it is,

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Speaker 1: and that I mean that whole scene that is so long.

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Speaker 1: That was the other thing where I was just like, Wow,

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Speaker 1: this movie gets a lot of mileage out of like

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Speaker 1: very very few locations. But in any case, that scene

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Speaker 1: is so loaded. But just even on its face is Oh,

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Speaker 1: that would have scared the ship out of me. As

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Speaker 1: a kid. Roll hates when children are hungry. What is

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Speaker 1: wrong with him? He's like, if you're hungry, you're gonna explode.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna too bad. Oh, he's such a fucking asshole.

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Speaker 1: Like you know, I did to say the least, but like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was that and to have like this was I

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Speaker 1: think this was like the last movie that Jim Henson

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Speaker 1: was well enough to work on. And he's really uh

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Speaker 1: he put the creature shop to work. It's so fucking scary.

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Speaker 1: So again, we like listeners. If you happened to see

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Speaker 1: the reboot while it was still available for streaming, we

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Speaker 1: couldn't watch it, but I'm assuming that it was probably

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Speaker 1: less scary in the new one, because there's like you

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Speaker 1: can just sort of do a boring c G I like,

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Speaker 1: I'm a mouse, but like with the practical effects, it

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Speaker 1: is so gnarly. It is brew a truly. Yeah. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So the meeting is about to disperse, but then one

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Speaker 1: of the witches smells Luke. They find him. They chase

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Speaker 1: him around for a bit and eventually catch him and

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Speaker 1: Miss Ernst gives him five hundred doses of formula six,

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Speaker 1: which transforms Luke into a mouse immediately, and the witches

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Speaker 1: trying to step on him and kill him, but mouse

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Speaker 1: Luke runs away. He finds mouse Bruno. They can both

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Speaker 1: still talk, so they scurry through the d talk about Bruno.

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Speaker 1: In this movie, they never hesitate to talk about Bruno. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was the exact laugh I was hoping for. And

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Speaker 1: Grandma especially is trying to talk about Bruno. She's trying

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Speaker 1: to tell his parents about b and they are not

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Speaker 1: having it. The parents are sort of like, we don't

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Speaker 1: talk about Bruno, not during whiskey and sherry time, and

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Speaker 1: she's like, we needed to wow the parallels. Did you

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00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 1: recognize Bruno's mom? No, she is played by Brenda bleth

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Speaker 1: In a k a. Mrs Bennett from Pride and Prejudice

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Speaker 1: two thousand five. Wow. I did not. Wow. I guess

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Speaker 1: that she was really in her nineties hair bag because

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Speaker 1: I didn't notice. That's like, I have a thought on

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Speaker 1: that character as well, too, but like, for now, all

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Speaker 1: I'll say is she really knows how to give a

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Speaker 1: surprised face. True. Alright, So the two mice boys scurry

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Speaker 1: through the hotel back to Luke's grandma's room, and Luke

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Speaker 1: is like, hey, Grandma, so I got turned into a

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Speaker 1: mouse by some witches. And also, is it just me

396
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: or did Grandma barely react to the information that her

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Speaker 1: so grandson is a mouse? Snow? I thought that too,

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Speaker 1: And then I'm just like, she's been I guess, ostensibly

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Speaker 1: hunting witches for years? Does she like, no, this is

400
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,919
Speaker 1: on the table? Angelica Houston sounded like it was a

401
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: new thing, so I feel like she should have been

402
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: more surprised, But I'm like, maybe maybe this is in

403
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 1: their playbook. I don't know, I don't or maybe also

404
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 1: the thing that and I don't think that this story

405
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 1: has any interest in exploring this side of it, which

406
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Speaker 1: is like fine, but I was just like, also, you know,

407
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: in a realistic world, which is obviously isn't these two

408
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: would be like overcome with grief because her daughter just

409
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: died and his parents just got Bruce wayned. And so

410
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: I'm just like, maybe she's just like still emotionally, she's

411
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Speaker 1: like sure, sure what next? My grandson's amuse great. She

412
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Speaker 1: could be just numb, she could just be in shock,

413
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: could be a lot of stuff we don't know. But

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00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 1: mouse Luke has a plan. He wants to put formula

415
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Speaker 1: eighty six into the witches soup at their dinner that

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Speaker 1: night and turn all of the witches into mice. So

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Speaker 1: Grandma helps him get into the Grand High Witches room,

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Speaker 1: though her cat makes it a little tricky. I liked

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Speaker 1: that part. Me and Flee were cheering. We're cheering for

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00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: the cat, and it's a cat that looks a bit

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00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,959
Speaker 1: like Flee. Oh well, because yeah, I mean please please

422
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 1: the classic uh which is cat? True? Yeah? Um, Okay,

423
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: so then Luke manages to get the formula and scurries

424
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 1: back to Grandma's room. So she takes Mouse Luke and

425
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 1: mouse Bruno to Bruno's parents and tries to explain the situation.

426
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: They don't believe her. Bruno's mom is like, and you know,

427
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,360
Speaker 1: screams at the site of mice because you know, women

428
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: be hysterical. Well, it's blonde women and women with children generally,

429
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: with the exception of the maid who is brunette and

430
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 1: we don't know if she has kids. Um, but generally,

431
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 1: blonde women and mothers are afraid of mice. Women with

432
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: dark hair or non white women are witches. They want

433
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 1: more mice, more mice, more mice. That's the rule. So

434
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: then mouse Luke goes into the hotel kitchen and puts

435
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 1: formula six into the cress soup. No idea what crest

436
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: soup is, but that's the soup that will be served

437
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 1: to the witches. And then he runs up the pants

438
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: of the chef ak the butler from Downton Abbey. So

439
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: that was a fun little yeah, I never I never

440
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: did Doubton Nabby and it's it's been you know, I've

441
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: heard it's great. Is that a hot take in two

442
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: thousand twenty two. I'm hearing good things about this doubton Nabby,

443
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: I mean I generally like it. Yeah, um okay. So

444
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,239
Speaker 1: then the soup is served, the witches eat it, and

445
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: then chaos and horror ensues as the witches turn into mice,

446
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: and then also the Grand High witch turning into a

447
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: mouse is the other scariest thing I've ever seen. Oh

448
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: my gosh, I like, how right before that happens? Um,

449
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: Angelica Houston, I mean she is, uh, there are a

450
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: few moments. One of the moments that I really, I

451
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: genuinely was like, wow, that was cool was when the

452
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: first witch, who is like in the kitchen realizes what

453
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: is happening, is the first to try to the soup,

454
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: is the first to turn into a mouse. She screws

455
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: out a mouse form to try to warn everybody. Ajelica

456
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: used to just steps on her and she clothes into goo.

457
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: What are the rules? Um? But that was that was

458
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: awesome because I guess Angelica Houston assumed that was a

459
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: child mouse and so she was like, well, let me

460
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 1: just kill this. But it was just like wow, wow,

461
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: she really uh, what's what's my shittiest clickbait um. The

462
00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: lack of empathy that Angelica Houston's character demonst it's in

463
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: the Witches is shocking, right it it writes itself. Okay,

464
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: so the hotel staff are trying to squash and kill

465
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: the mice. Rowan Atkinson chops and kills mouse, Angelica Houston

466
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: with a clever It's chaos, but things kind of settle

467
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: down and mouse Luke and Grandma say goodbye to Bruno

468
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: and his parents, and then they leave the hotel and

469
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: go back home, and Luke is like, hey, being a

470
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 1: mouse isn't so bad, and Grandma is like, yep, and

471
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: that friend is really sad. Yeah, it's good to know. Like, also,

472
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 1: I wanted to mention why does Mr Bean get the kill? Like?

473
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 1: Why does Mr Mean this has been Grandma? I have

474
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: a theory as to why. I think it's because she

475
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: has to be the good one and so we can't

476
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: see her actually killing her harming anyone that directly. I

477
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: wonder what happens in the book. I act, we didn't

478
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,479
Speaker 1: check who kills her in the book because it just

479
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: feels like logically Grandma has been hunting this specific which

480
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: for decades. This woman took her finger off, like why,

481
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 1: but she just puts a little dish over her and

482
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: it's like turns around and then Mr Bean get I

483
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: was like, Mr Bean's got no you know, he's got

484
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: no stake in the game, Like hey, but he whatever.

485
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: The whole premises is flawed from the jump. But I'm like,

486
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: if I'm watching this movie, let Grandma kill Angelica Houston,

487
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: what are we doing? Yeah for sure? Um okay. So

488
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: then they're like coming to terms with Luke being a

489
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: mouse forever. But wait a minute. There was one which

490
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: Ms Ernst Secretary I think, who was not turned into

491
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: a mouse, and she has been following Luke and Grandma

492
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: and it seems like she might be up to no good.

493
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: But it turns out that she's like a good witch

494
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,239
Speaker 1: or she doesn't want to participate in child hunting, and

495
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: she with magic turns Luke back into a human and

496
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: that's how the movie ends, which is a big departure

497
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: from how the book ends, which is that he stays

498
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: a mouse, knowing that he will die soon. It feels

499
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: like a major departure because of how abrupt and out

500
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: of step with the rest of the story it feels,

501
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: because it's like that maybe I was like, I mean,

502
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 1: I've I've watched the movie twice. I was paying attention.

503
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: I was like, but that, which is sudden, like I'm

504
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: nice now and like and then she's like Glinda the

505
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: good which and then he has to like it's so

506
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: shoehorned into the last ninety seconds of the movie that

507
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: Luke literally has to yell out the window Bruno next like,

508
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: don't forget about Bruno, don't forget about Bruno, and like

509
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: I'm glad for the children. I'm glad that that change

510
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 1: was made. But just watching it in with like movie logic,

511
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: you're like, oh yeah, this, uh, this doesn't match up

512
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,479
Speaker 1: with anything else that happens. It makes sense that they

513
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: changed it. Okay, let's take a quick break and we

514
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: will come back to discuss and we are back where Okay,

515
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: where to begin? I would like to start, if it's

516
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: okay with how and this, I mean this, it's all

517
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: sort of like part of the same conversation of how

518
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: roll Dolls. Personal prejudices are very much on display in this.

519
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: The three main areas that stood out to me that

520
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: are also like, I mean, so, we'll probably be repeating

521
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: some stuff that we've mentioned in the Matilda episode previously,

522
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: but I think it really does bear repeating. So a

523
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: quick trigger warning for particularly anti Simon to them and um,

524
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: fat phobia. But I think that the three areas that

525
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: we're really jumping out to me was something that we've

526
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 1: discussed in Doll adaptations before, which is fat phobia, he

527
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: but also misogyny and anti semitism. I think we're just

528
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: like just running rampant. The story can't happen without that.

529
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: So I just wanted to start by going over rolled

530
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 1: all again. So if you've heard this information before, you

531
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 1: already know. If you haven't heard this information before, you know,

532
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 1: sorry if this is at least you're finding out from

533
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 1: your para social friends, but just but you know, like

534
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 1: Rold All was unlike I think that there's a lot

535
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: of creators that people will go to the map for

536
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: where they're like, well, we don't know for sure if

537
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 1: they were, but like rolled all of Rold Doll's prejudices

538
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: he was very vocal about. He literally said, I am

539
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: an anti semi like, there is no room for any argument, um,

540
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: even if you wanted to fucking straw man this issue.

541
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: He was very very anti Semitic um. He was known

542
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: to be horrible to his first wife in particular, but

543
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: also a lot of women in his life. He was

544
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: known to be extremely volatile and mean. He also said

545
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: to his wife, his wife, his wife on their first date.

546
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 1: Let me let me pull up the quote, I'd rather

547
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: be dead than fat unquote. He's just like a piece

548
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 1: of ship person like demonstrably so. And if you have

549
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,240
Speaker 1: attachments to his works, I would say, like most people

550
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,439
Speaker 1: do who are at least in our age range, and

551
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 1: but like it's very relevant information because they're going to

552
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: continue to adapt his work. Netflix paid a billion dollars

553
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: to license his entire catalog in the last couple of years.

554
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 1: But anyways, I just wanted to start by saying, like,

555
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: we're going to be taking a look at this, and

556
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: also it is very inherent to the author. The way

557
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 1: that women and the way that anti Semitic tropes are

558
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 1: presented in this work and in this movie are definitely

559
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: not a mistake intentional to the point where this book

560
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 1: was when it came out in eighty three. I mean, normally,

561
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: in most cases I'm very skeptical of like a band

562
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: book because that usually they're usually bad for the wrong

563
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 1: reasons right right, and it's like a puritanical thing. But

564
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: there was a lot of controversy about the Witches when

565
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 1: it was released in the book because people were like,

566
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 1: this is really misogynist, Like the first page it's all

567
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 1: about how I mean, I think that he's also like

568
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: going on this weird tirade about childless women, and like

569
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 1: just all of his shitty politics are so um on

570
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 1: display here. I don't want to really read any of

571
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: his specific comments about women. Um were about Jewish people.

572
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 1: You can seek those out. They are out there. He

573
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 1: has also said a number of racist things. There's uh

574
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 1: I this was my I don't think I found this

575
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: in my Matilda research. But apparently like he was like

576
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 1: let go by his editors at one point, like one

577
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: of them. And this is an incredibly lucrative author obviously, um,

578
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: but it was literally like he was too a extremely

579
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: mean and bad to work with and be editors at,

580
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 1: especially at this point in his career when he was older,

581
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 1: Like he would refuse to write out racist and misogynist stuff,

582
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 1: and his editors were like pleading with him and he

583
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: would say no, So they were like, well, we can't

584
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: work with you anymore. If you are like I I

585
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 1: refused to publish the children's book without misogyny, like it's

586
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: just absolutely wild and gross and um so so. But

587
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: as it pertains to the witches specifically, I do want

588
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 1: to share what he said to his editor because it

589
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,760
Speaker 1: was flagged by the editorial team of like, this seems

590
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 1: like maybe you're working through some stuff, buddy, seems more

591
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,320
Speaker 1: like a scary diary entry. But his editor, um whose

592
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: last name is Rocksburg, I don't have his first name here,

593
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: said that, you know, he pushed back and he's like,

594
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: next draft, let's uh, let's take it easy on those

595
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,800
Speaker 1: damn witches a little bit when it comes to the

596
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 1: misogynist tropes, or like let's mix it up. Uh and

597
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 1: roll Dall replied, quote, I don't agree with you about

598
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: women coming in for a lot of this, for a

599
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: lot of the stick all the way through. The nicest

600
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 1: person in the whole thing is a woman, the grandmother.

601
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,800
Speaker 1: So I have not changed anything. And so he like really,

602
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 1: you know, doubled down on every I mean, he's he

603
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,240
Speaker 1: had issues with the n double a c P who

604
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: came out against some stuff. He wrote, Um, I think

605
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 1: as it pertains to the BFG and early draft of

606
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 1: the VFG that he did have to fix and was

607
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: forced to fix by the editor. But like, it's just

608
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 1: like on almost every marginalized person you could imagine, he

609
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: has said something deeply cruel. And this is like one

610
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 1: of the most famous children's authors of all time. Also,

611
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 1: his granddaughter became a very famous plus size model, So

612
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: fuck you, rold Doll. But anyway, so so that's all

613
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 1: I mean. Did you have anything else you wanted to

614
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: jump in to add to that? I just like, I

615
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 1: don't want to share specific comments but no, but I

616
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 1: will share a very very quick excerpt that I pulled

617
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,359
Speaker 1: from the book because I went back and skimmed through

618
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 1: parts of it. Um, this is from the book, and

619
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: I believe the context here is that it's the grandmother

620
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 1: talking to I don't well, actually no, I'm not sure

621
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: if it's this is what the grandmother is saying to Luke,

622
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 1: or if this is just sort of like omniscient narration.

623
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: Not entirely sure. But what it says is quote A

624
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: which is always a woman. I do not wish to

625
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: speak badly about women. Most women are lovely, but the

626
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: fact remains that all which is our women there was

627
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 1: no such thing as a male, which, on the other hand,

628
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: a ghoul is always a male, so indeed is a

629
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 1: bar guesst. I don't know what the funk that is.

630
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: Both are dangerous, but neither of them is half as

631
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 1: dangerous as a real witch, right unquote. So I get

632
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,800
Speaker 1: why you could read that and be like, that's pretty cool,

633
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: Like women are the most fearsome and terrifying of everybody.

634
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,959
Speaker 1: That's fun. I don't know, I was, I was trying

635
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 1: to read through, like because this this is a been

636
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 1: a divisive work. I'm talking more about the book than

637
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 1: the movie when I say this, but like it was

638
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 1: a very divisive book, and there are a lot of

639
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: people who like read claim it on the basis of

640
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: that um where they're like, well, you know, he's created

641
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: a world where like this group of women are like

642
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,720
Speaker 1: the most fearsome, powerful people in the entire world. Yeah,

643
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 1: like they're all powerful, and um, what we'll say about

644
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 1: those reclaimings as they conveniently don't mention any of the

645
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 1: anti Semitism, but that passage is cool, Like that's that

646
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 1: I wish that. I don't know, like they're they're but

647
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 1: it's also like demonstrating like, yeah, I'm saying that I

648
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 1: think that most women are lovely, but I actually secretly

649
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,359
Speaker 1: find women scary and think that a lot of them

650
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: are evil witches, right, Like, I mean, you can take

651
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 1: it in a few different ways, but it's just so wild,

652
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: like yeah, there's no there's no um defending and also

653
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,240
Speaker 1: like there's I'm pretty sure that because Matilda was recently

654
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 1: turned into a Broadway musical, I believe it's being um.

655
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 1: And then do you remember there was a big Emma

656
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 1: Thompson was cast as Miss trunch Bull. There was a

657
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,240
Speaker 1: controversy about that because they didn't cast a fact actor

658
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 1: in a fat part. But so like all that to

659
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 1: say that there's like there's another rollout of Roll Doll's work,

660
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: as we talked about this in the Matilda episode, but

661
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: his family released an apology postmortem right after making a

662
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 1: billion dollars that was also divisive. Um, the apology I

663
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: think is like not a bad one. I think it

664
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: was the timing that people were a little more suspect about. Quote.

665
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: The Doll family and the Roll Tolls Story Company deeply

666
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 1: apologized for the lasting and understandable hurt caused by some

667
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 1: of Roll Doll's statements. It goes on from there. It

668
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 1: is good that his family and company can acknowledge it,

669
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 1: but also I think it was, in my opinion, rightfully

670
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: speculated that that was just so no one would yell

671
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: at them for taking the one billion Netflix dollars, so

672
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,320
Speaker 1: that these could be adapted again. And there's no quality.

673
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how much say the role

674
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: Doll company will have if you're to take the new

675
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 1: adaptation of the witches um that came out. It seems

676
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: like a lot of the tropes were not improved on

677
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 1: at all, and so it's no guarantee that they'll do better, right,

678
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: because again, the whole story is rooted in one big

679
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: anti Semitic stereotype. So we'll talk about that, should be,

680
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: let's get into that. Yes, let's all right. So the

681
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: Grand High Witch when Angelica Houston takes her Angelica Houston

682
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: face off, face off, and then we have the Grand

683
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:48,320
Speaker 1: High Witch as she actually is. The character design here

684
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:55,959
Speaker 1: very closely resembles anti Semitic caricatures that have been illustrated

685
00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 1: of Jewish people throughout history. No ambiguity about it, right,

686
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: you know, various features the large hook knows being perhaps

687
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 1: the most obvious one those anti Semitic caricatures that have

688
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 1: existed throughout history. Visually speaking, feels like it was just

689
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 1: like mapped onto the character design of the Grand High

690
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 1: Witch um and and also like they I've read some

691
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 1: analysis that was like they go out of their way

692
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: to like give the witches like reptilian features, and just

693
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: like it just seems like they do the absolute most

694
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: you could possibly do. Yeah, it's upset. And then there

695
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: is the again, the premise that the movie is based on,

696
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 1: which is that these witches want to hunt children. And

697
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: if you consider the fact that the main character of

698
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: this movie, Luke, the you know, the little boy Luke,

699
00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:01,879
Speaker 1: he is a you know, blonde haired wied kid, and

700
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 1: these witches are hell bent on like him Norwegian. Like, yeah,

701
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 1: So I'm going to read a quote from a piece

702
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 1: by Shelley J. From entitled looking back on the anti

703
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:22,320
Speaker 1: Semitism in Rhode Dolls the Witches quote attributing Jewish features

704
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: to quote unquote bad witches goes back centuries. In an

705
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 1: article about the origins of archetypal witches, Ellie Buford writes,

706
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: the stereotype of the Jewish nose is often used in

707
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 1: anti Semitic media, including Nazi propaganda such as The Eternal Jew.

708
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:43,359
Speaker 1: While in early folklore it was likely not initially tied

709
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 1: to anti Semitism, the feature is used in modern times

710
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: to code characters as Jewish. Shelly J goes on to

711
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 1: say the child snatching and blood libel tropes of the

712
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 1: witches also have their roots in folklore, going all the

713
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 1: way back to Chaucer. Buford notes blood libel was a

714
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: charge frequently leveled at Jewish people during the Middle Ages.

715
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 1: People believed that any time a gentile parentheses non Jewish

716
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 1: child went missing, that Jewish people had kidnapped and killed

717
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: the child, either for ritual purposes or to use for food. Unquote.

718
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 1: And what does the Jewish coded grand high witch do

719
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 1: in this movie? And what does she want all the

720
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 1: other witches to do? Kidnap and kill aryan looking children.

721
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 1: They're also portrayed as having unlimited money and resources. Right,

722
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 1: That's that's what I meant when I said, like it is,

723
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 1: you know cool in theory that roll dolls presenting these

724
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: women is all powerful, but through the lens of anti Semitism,

725
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: he is and had and literally like textually said a

726
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 1: bunch of really stereotypical comments about Jewish people and money.

727
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 1: And that is also a part of the Witches right,

728
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 1: because the Grand high Witch has a trunk full of

729
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:09,399
Speaker 1: cash and she is like throwing money at the other

730
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: witches and saying, here, take this and buy buy up.

731
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 1: All the candy stores in England offer people three to

732
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 1: four times what the shops are actually worth, just so

733
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 1: that you have this way to lure children in, to

734
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 1: capture them and to kill them. Yeah, I saw, and

735
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: I genuinely I mean, just a reminder for our listeners,

736
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 1: Caitlin and myself, we're not Jewish, so our perspective is limited,

737
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 1: and so there's stuff we're missing. We always want to

738
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 1: know it because, in fact, in a recent episode we

739
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 1: missed originally that there was an anti Semitic trope and

740
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: animation tropes being used in Mother Gothel from Tangled. So

741
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 1: we want to get shit right and we want to

742
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: continue learning. So if we're missing any thing, please, um

743
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,320
Speaker 1: we are always you know, do people still say bang

744
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,359
Speaker 1: my line. I've never said that. I was like, bang

745
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 1: our line. I've never heard that at all. What do

746
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: you mean it's been said. I think it's like a landline,

747
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:22,359
Speaker 1: like land bang my lind give me a call, drop,

748
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 1: drop me a line. I've heard that. God, we're so old, okay, um.

749
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 1: I think that that's an older phrase, though I think

750
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 1: that phrase predates us bang my log. It was when

751
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 1: people were calling each other's landlord, landlord land line, let's

752
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: move on, um okay. So another thing, because I was

753
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:46,400
Speaker 1: like coming through pieces, I was coming through right it.

754
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 1: I just was like, what you know, I want to

755
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 1: be brought up to speed here. It was also I

756
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 1: thought I saw speculated in a few places that the

757
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 1: accent that Angelic Houston takes on has been generally interpreted

758
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 1: as German, but there are plenty of Jewish people in

759
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 1: Germany as well as Um. Some people would argue that

760
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 1: it is more of a Yiddish accent. I don't have

761
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: the know how to say one way or the other,

762
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 1: and I wasn't able to find any production notes on

763
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 1: what she was doing, but I wanted to mention that.

764
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 1: And then for me, where the anti semitism and the

765
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 1: misogyny um sort of started blending. Yes, yes, the intersection

766
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 1: of misogyny and anti semitism, which unfortunately is a very

767
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 1: very real thing. But I think that where it like

768
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 1: overlapped most severely for me was in that like opening

769
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 1: sequence of the description, because I honestly didn't put this

770
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 1: together as an anti Semitic trope until I read it.

771
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 1: Let me get the name of the writer so I

772
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 1: can cry out at them for this insight. Tom. So

773
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 1: this is um from a piece that was written for

774
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: Vox by Aja Romano Um when The Witches came out. Um.

775
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: So this is a reflection on just the story at large.

776
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 1: UM not specific to this movie, but it definitely applies here. Quote.

777
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 1: The anti Semitism Doll himself professed doesn't necessarily play a

778
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 1: role in most of his other works, but it's directly

779
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 1: relevant to The Witches, a story that's explicitly about detecting

780
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 1: impostors in the midst of society. This is, to be blunt,

781
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 1: the theme of most anti Semitic conspiracy throughout history, and

782
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:42,240
Speaker 1: has led, in its most extreme form to the idea

783
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 1: that Jewish people quote hide in plain sight while essentially

784
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 1: controlling the world. Unquote. I did not put that together

785
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 1: on my viewing, but I completely agree and like no

786
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: knowing role Doll's feelings, I'm sure that that was his

787
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 1: intense inspired whole narrative he is uh, he's a bad man,

788
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 1: he sucks hot take. And I think also within that

789
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,360
Speaker 1: same um, I think where I got thrown off in

790
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 1: addition to just like I don't have a Jewish perspective,

791
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 1: but I um, I mean like it is an inherently

792
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 1: scary idea that something is hiding in plain sight and

793
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:25,320
Speaker 1: can hurt you, Like that's whatever you used in horror

794
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: all the time. But I thought it was like, you know,

795
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:32,359
Speaker 1: where it sort of crossed into more generalized misogyny for

796
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,799
Speaker 1: me was like the ways in which the witches had

797
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:40,400
Speaker 1: to hide the parts of them that were seen as grotesque,

798
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:44,720
Speaker 1: where it was all very like stuff we've talked about before,

799
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 1: but like this might be the most extreme example that

800
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:52,319
Speaker 1: we've ever covered, where you know, like the trappings of

801
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 1: classic femininity with like the wigs. You know, your hair

802
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 1: has to look a certain way, your makeup has to

803
00:51:57,239 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 1: be on point, you have to like look good, you

804
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 1: have to look glamorous, have to wear high heeled shoes,

805
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 1: like all this ship and the implication that which is

806
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 1: just like Galaxy brain, the implication that the story has

807
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 1: is that women are doing this to fool you, so

808
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 1: you don't notice that they're evil, and there is no whatever,

809
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:26,839
Speaker 1: there is no implication that this might be something that

810
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 1: is demanded of of many women, especially you know, the

811
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 1: further back in time you go, right, So it's just

812
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 1: like again, it's like, oh, it's uh. If you feel

813
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 1: pressure to look a certain way, that's your fault. And

814
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 1: also it removes the possibility that you might just enjoy

815
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:55,840
Speaker 1: presenting feminine, Like there's just no there's there's no nothing.

816
00:52:56,200 --> 00:53:01,439
Speaker 1: The rigid expectations are rigid. Um. Yeah. Something that really

817
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 1: struck me was the I would say, casting and makeup

818
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 1: choices for the witches, because there's a room full of

819
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 1: like a hundred of them, give or take, and the

820
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:19,799
Speaker 1: people that were cast as witches, and the kind of

821
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: just character design of the witches in general carries some

822
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:30,359
Speaker 1: troubling implications. So many of the women who are cast

823
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 1: as witches are middle aged or older, which is actually

824
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:36,800
Speaker 1: I guess, a deviation from the book um the ground

825
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 1: which is described in the book as being okay. So

826
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 1: I think that this is like specifically a movie issue,

827
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 1: and I feel like what it's implying is what I

828
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 1: jumped to, was implying like women without children are more

829
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:54,440
Speaker 1: likely to be evil, scary and like, and it's not

830
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: that it's not just that I don't want children, it's

831
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: that I hate children and I want them to die,

832
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 1: which is just like whatever, It's just everything is so

833
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 1: fucking absolutist and in this specific world, yes, um, there's

834
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 1: that there is similar to what you were just talking about.

835
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 1: Certain markers of quote unquote femininity are like removed from

836
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 1: the witches where you know, they make them bald, they

837
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 1: have rashy skin. Certain choices are made to for like

838
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: they're like makeup and costuming. In addition to that, there's

839
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:32,280
Speaker 1: like some of them are given like prosthetic teeth. Basically

840
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 1: they are made to seem unattractive by traditional Western beauty standards,

841
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 1: which I think is like supported by like virtually every

842
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 1: cinematography choice is the movie like is supporting that like,

843
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:50,719
Speaker 1: which is again it's just like I don't think that

844
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 1: there's any way to adapt this story that isn't offensive.

845
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 1: And I think some of the cool like if I'm

846
00:54:57,080 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 1: just thinking, like Jamie likes watching a movie brain, I

847
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 1: think some of the cooler choices are in the cinematography

848
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,400
Speaker 1: because it's like, it's really fucking scary but like, you know,

849
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 1: all of the like movie language choices totally support what

850
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 1: you're supposed to not like about them, like unflattering camera angles,

851
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 1: unflattering lenses like fish eye lens kind of stuff. And

852
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 1: then something I noticed, And we couldn't find any information

853
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 1: about how intentional this was as far as casting goes,

854
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:33,360
Speaker 1: but several of the witches who are in the group

855
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:39,319
Speaker 1: at the meeting are men, So I in this is

856
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:43,360
Speaker 1: speculation here, but I would speculate that that's just another

857
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 1: thing that contributes to this idea that if you're not

858
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 1: adhering to a very you know, traditional binary standard of beauty,

859
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 1: then you're evil. If you are a woman with masculine features,

860
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 1: that's scary, that bad. The implications here are you know,

861
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:07,200
Speaker 1: a whole number of you know, just very harmful queer phobic,

862
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:14,360
Speaker 1: transphobic implications. There's just a lot done in this movie

863
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,800
Speaker 1: that I feel like is was probably intentional. Again, we

864
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,719
Speaker 1: couldn't find anything to confirm this, but we really we

865
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 1: really did look. I mean, but and and even fans

866
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 1: of this movie have speculated something very similar. Yeah, I mean,

867
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 1: there's kind of like, as far as I know, like,

868
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:33,000
Speaker 1: there wasn't a lot available in terms of like finding

869
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,800
Speaker 1: out about the production process of this movie outside of

870
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 1: kind of like the basics, because I have all these questions,

871
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 1: but Nicholas Rogue is dead, so I don't know a

872
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 1: lot of the answer. But yeah, I I genuine I

873
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:48,200
Speaker 1: didn't notice that on my viewings. But once you pointed out,

874
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 1: I I see what you're saying. I agree, right, And

875
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 1: we had a similar discussion on the Matilda episode with

876
00:56:55,640 --> 00:57:00,120
Speaker 1: the Mistrunchable versus Miss Honey characters, where if you who

877
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:04,799
Speaker 1: are a woman who presents as traditionally feminine and traditionally

878
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:10,359
Speaker 1: pretty and who has like mothering type of qualities, you're

879
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:13,360
Speaker 1: a good person. And if you're a woman with masculine

880
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 1: features who would not perhaps be considered as attractive by

881
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 1: Western standards of beauty, you are a mean, bad person

882
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 1: who hates children. Right, But it's well, I don't see

883
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 1: I haven't I haven't revisited anything remotely Charlie and the

884
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 1: Chocolate Factory in a very very long time. I know that,

885
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 1: like Willy Wonka is like a villain, but he's a

886
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: villain in a different way than the Witches are villains,

887
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:44,800
Speaker 1: and in a different way than Miss trunch Ball is

888
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:48,520
Speaker 1: presented as a villain. I so take this with a

889
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:51,439
Speaker 1: grain of salt because I haven't revisited in a while,

890
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 1: but just my memory of because I read those books

891
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 1: and watched the movies, and he's definitely a villain, but

892
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 1: he's more like he's a trickster. Uh, you like him,

893
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 1: but you are never you know, like Miss Trench Bull

894
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 1: and Um, I think Angelica Houston's character are highly reclaimable characters,

895
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:12,919
Speaker 1: but they're meant to be despicable, like from the first

896
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 1: moment you see them, where I feel like Willy Wonka,

897
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 1: you're no matter what form he appears, and you're supposed

898
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:22,240
Speaker 1: to still kind of like him even though he's an asshole.

899
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 1: So that's, you know, a very rold Doll thing. It's

900
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 1: so wild to me. I mean it's like, I love

901
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 1: I love the character of Matilda and the fact that

902
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:38,520
Speaker 1: Jim Henson was so deeply involved in making these like

903
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 1: horrific anti Semitic prosthetics, and yet this is the same

904
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:46,680
Speaker 1: person who gave us Miss Piggy. I just I'm like, uh, hello,

905
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 1: it doesn't whatever. I'm not I can't lose sleep sleep

906
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:55,160
Speaker 1: over it at this time. Um, we're tired. Yeah, but

907
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 1: I mean, and and just to sort of close the

908
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 1: loop on the misogyny of it all. So this is

909
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 1: I mean, this is a very very white movie. I

910
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:07,120
Speaker 1: believe that there are some women of color in the

911
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:10,520
Speaker 1: background who appear. I think that there are a few

912
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 1: witches who are not white, but you only witches first

913
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 1: of all. Um, even outside of that, like I feel

914
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:21,320
Speaker 1: it feels just like, yeah, most of the women who

915
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:26,360
Speaker 1: are afraid of mice are maternal or blonde, all of

916
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:32,440
Speaker 1: the like, any woman who expresses anything is either maternal

917
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 1: or blonde, and that's just how the world works in

918
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:41,240
Speaker 1: Mr Bean's hotel. I don't like it. Um, I do

919
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:47,040
Speaker 1: want to Well, let's let's talk about Grandma really quick,

920
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:51,360
Speaker 1: because there's a lot of ways to come back Grandma.

921
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 1: I do think that she and Angelica Houston are the

922
00:59:56,200 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 1: most motivated characters in the movie. Sure, which is which? Which?

923
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 1: Which is? Like? You know whatever? For me, all the

924
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:10,760
Speaker 1: fucking anti semitism, uh cancels out anything that I would

925
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:14,600
Speaker 1: like about it. But you know, I can I can

926
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:18,080
Speaker 1: respect that the two most motivated characters are women. I

927
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 1: sort of wish that if that's the case, then like

928
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:23,640
Speaker 1: lean into that rivalry more like I don't know why

929
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 1: we're with I I know what, Ever, like you needed

930
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,640
Speaker 1: a child protagonist as the World Doll book, but I'm

931
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:30,640
Speaker 1: just like, I don't really give a shit about Luke.

932
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:35,840
Speaker 1: He's very just there, and I guess that the mouse

933
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:38,160
Speaker 1: practical effects are cool, but like I just didn't I

934
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 1: don't know. I was like, the grandma is the more

935
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 1: interesting character, but also she's the one that's like sharing

936
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:50,320
Speaker 1: this misogynist uh theory she's been forming for her entire

937
01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 1: life at the beginning, So you're like, well, that's I

938
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:59,240
Speaker 1: don't know. I didn't hate the grandma character. Like I

939
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 1: thought it was cool that at every step she did

940
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 1: believe her grandson when he and no one ever believes

941
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 1: children in books also very often in real life. I

942
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:13,920
Speaker 1: think that that is always a valuable thing to include

943
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:17,800
Speaker 1: in children's media of like just a kid, something weird,

944
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 1: specific horrible happening to a kid and having them be

945
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:24,520
Speaker 1: believed by an adult they love. That's very important. That's nice.

946
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 1: But she's a conspirace, like it's it's all very weird.

947
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:34,040
Speaker 1: But she basically says, like, be wary of any woman

948
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 1: you come across a little boy, because there's a chance

949
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 1: she might be a witch. So I have a fundamental

950
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 1: distrust of women right right and literally. And at first

951
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 1: I was like you gol. Lucacy was like that can't

952
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:50,840
Speaker 1: be true. It was like Luke's living in the year.

953
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 1: And then she's like, no, we gotta roll that clock backwards.

954
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:59,320
Speaker 1: Don't trust a woman in the entire world. Um, it's

955
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:04,280
Speaker 1: so bizarre. I do like there and and and the

956
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:08,560
Speaker 1: other thing. I'll hand too to Grandma. I guess in

957
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:10,960
Speaker 1: the book she's grandmama. They give they give people names

958
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:12,959
Speaker 1: in the movie, they didn't give them in the book.

959
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 1: I guess everyone it's like boy, grandmama, grand witch. Um,

960
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 1: but she's named Helga. In this she has a name.

961
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:24,240
Speaker 1: And when the action of the movie, because this movie

962
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:27,360
Speaker 1: is like kind of like a how some funky pacing

963
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:29,840
Speaker 1: to like it takes longer than I thought it was

964
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:32,440
Speaker 1: going to take for him to become a mouse whatever.

965
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 1: But once that is happening, you know, like she is

966
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 1: very active in basically everything moving forward. They're working together.

967
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 1: She believes him. I think the only if the story

968
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 1: has to go the way it has to go, the

969
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 1: only thing I wish had gone differently was that she

970
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:54,920
Speaker 1: should have gotten to kill Angelica Houston after all of that.

971
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:58,680
Speaker 1: So weird that they let Mr Bean do it, especially

972
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:04,720
Speaker 1: because it's been suggested, if not overtly stated, that her

973
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:08,880
Speaker 1: injury on her hand was caused by Angelica Houston, which

974
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:12,200
Speaker 1: and like they had a rivalry, they recognize each other,

975
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:14,720
Speaker 1: you know, So it would have been so much more

976
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 1: cathartic if Grandma was able to land the killing blow.

977
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:23,120
Speaker 1: It's so bizarre to be that that that didn't happen, because, Yeah,

978
01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:25,400
Speaker 1: I think that Angelica Houston kind of like confirms that

979
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:28,480
Speaker 1: when she goes to see like she first of all

980
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:33,280
Speaker 1: triggers a diabetic attack. She's so evil in poor Grandma

981
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 1: and like walks in, She's like, oh this bitch again,

982
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:41,040
Speaker 1: she's old. Now I know who this is blah blah blah,

983
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 1: which also implies that the witches are immortal. I guess

984
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:46,880
Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, hard to say, but yeah, I

985
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:49,040
Speaker 1: think it. I think that we're supposed to believe that

986
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:53,240
Speaker 1: Angelica Houston something, whatever happened with the finger was her.

987
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:55,760
Speaker 1: She didn't even get to kill her. What's the point.

988
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:59,000
Speaker 1: Why am I watching this movie? Um? I would The

989
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:02,920
Speaker 1: other thing with the Grandma character is that so she

990
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:05,720
Speaker 1: learns towards the beginning of the story that she has diabetes,

991
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:10,000
Speaker 1: and I feel, and maybe this is me misinterpreting or

992
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:12,800
Speaker 1: reading too far into this, but I feel like the

993
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 1: movie implies that her diabetes is making her a bad caregiver,

994
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 1: and it's like the fault of her diabetes that is

995
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:25,680
Speaker 1: why Luke got caught by the witches and turned into

996
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:32,640
Speaker 1: a mouse, which obviously has very ablest implications if true. Um,

997
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:34,720
Speaker 1: because like there's a scene where she's like laid up

998
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:38,040
Speaker 1: in bed and Luke even says like, I'm not sure

999
01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 1: if it was the witches or if it was her diabetes,

1000
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:45,080
Speaker 1: but she was like not able to look after him,

1001
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:47,680
Speaker 1: and that's why he got caught by witches and turned

1002
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:51,400
Speaker 1: into a mouse. I don't know. I that did not

1003
01:04:51,640 --> 01:04:54,760
Speaker 1: occur to me, but I think it is interesting. I

1004
01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:57,160
Speaker 1: don't know, yeah, I I honestly sort of just like

1005
01:04:57,200 --> 01:04:59,440
Speaker 1: any time I see a kid just like running around

1006
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:01,400
Speaker 1: and you're there, should be an adult there. I'm like, oh,

1007
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:04,840
Speaker 1: this movie came out in that was probably just allowed.

1008
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:07,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, but that but that is an interesting point.

1009
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:09,960
Speaker 1: I didn't think about that. There are a lot I mean,

1010
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 1: there's like mostly female characters in this movie. Another one

1011
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:16,720
Speaker 1: I would like to talk about really quick is the

1012
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 1: one that was changed and I think maybe added with

1013
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:25,200
Speaker 1: specificity entirely for this movie, which is um Susan the

1014
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:28,080
Speaker 1: Good which I didn't hear her ever be called Susan,

1015
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:30,880
Speaker 1: but apparently her name is Susan. I think that this

1016
01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:35,360
Speaker 1: is like for me, like whatever, I'm old, and this

1017
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 1: movie is for kids, so I'm not handing it to myself,

1018
01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:42,480
Speaker 1: but I feel like you're told immediately that like this,

1019
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:45,320
Speaker 1: which isn't like the other which because she's wearing white

1020
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:48,040
Speaker 1: all the time, and she's blonde, and she's none of

1021
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:53,080
Speaker 1: the other witches where light colors or have these aryan

1022
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:57,800
Speaker 1: complexions which enrolled dolls. Ship is always intentional, so she's

1023
01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:00,920
Speaker 1: the only that I could spot anyways, the only blonde

1024
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:05,840
Speaker 1: which and she the few times you see her, uh Eva,

1025
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:09,160
Speaker 1: Angelica Houston's bossing her around, being an asshole to her,

1026
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 1: and then at the end, she's fed up and she

1027
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:15,000
Speaker 1: she leaves the dinner. So she's the only witch that

1028
01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:18,760
Speaker 1: doesn't eat the soup and turn into a mouse. And

1029
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 1: then she goes like, can you help me trace what

1030
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:26,160
Speaker 1: goes on there? Because she goes we see like there's like,

1031
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:29,800
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is I haven't seen Nicholas Rogues,

1032
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 1: Like I haven't seen others of his movies. I'm like,

1033
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:34,160
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is his style. But there's

1034
01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:37,840
Speaker 1: like occasionally in this movie, just like really quick shots

1035
01:06:38,040 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 1: that are like supposed to be a whole scene and

1036
01:06:40,240 --> 01:06:43,320
Speaker 1: then and then you're like, wait what they cut up

1037
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:45,720
Speaker 1: to Susan the good Witch at some point in the

1038
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:48,200
Speaker 1: middle of like the peak of the movie, and it's

1039
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:50,840
Speaker 1: just like her in her hotel room by herself, drinking

1040
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:54,360
Speaker 1: a cup of tea by herself. She doesn't even speak,

1041
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:56,840
Speaker 1: but you hear her thoughts for a second, which doesn't

1042
01:06:56,880 --> 01:07:00,800
Speaker 1: happen anywhere else in the movie, and it just goes like, well,

1043
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:03,040
Speaker 1: I didn't want to hang out with them anyways, or

1044
01:07:03,080 --> 01:07:06,760
Speaker 1: like whatever it was. I was like, what was that?

1045
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:10,600
Speaker 1: That was self bizarre? And then like that's the only

1046
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:17,360
Speaker 1: it's that. And then when Grandma and Luke Mouse are

1047
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:24,320
Speaker 1: leaving Mr Bean, sorry, Luky Mouse, Lukie Mouse are leaving

1048
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:28,400
Speaker 1: Mr Bean's hotel, she's like looking at them, and then

1049
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:31,800
Speaker 1: that's the only information you get before you find out, oh,

1050
01:07:31,880 --> 01:07:36,400
Speaker 1: actually she's so good and you're like what I could not.

1051
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:40,960
Speaker 1: I think it's implied that the grand high Witch who

1052
01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:46,640
Speaker 1: is her boss, mistreats this quote unquote good witch, and

1053
01:07:46,720 --> 01:07:50,840
Speaker 1: so she just was fed up with being mistreated, so

1054
01:07:50,880 --> 01:07:56,120
Speaker 1: she decides to like rebel against this evil witchery and

1055
01:07:56,280 --> 01:08:00,400
Speaker 1: use her magic for good? Is the load chick that

1056
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:04,720
Speaker 1: I could kind of track? Yeah, I mean, I'm not

1057
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:09,160
Speaker 1: opposed to the change made to the ending. These poor

1058
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:12,760
Speaker 1: children have suffered enough. I don't mind there being a

1059
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:15,280
Speaker 1: random happy ending, but it is a very gendered happy

1060
01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:18,840
Speaker 1: ending that that um, even though it doesn't align with

1061
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:21,040
Speaker 1: the story logic, it aligns with the view of women

1062
01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:23,440
Speaker 1: that we've seen this whole time, which is that, um,

1063
01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:29,679
Speaker 1: blonde women are nice. Yeah, so that I just wanted

1064
01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:34,280
Speaker 1: to just even just to unpack, like they really half asked,

1065
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:39,599
Speaker 1: letting us know why she was good and who else

1066
01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:41,439
Speaker 1: do we have? We have the made There's not really

1067
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:46,479
Speaker 1: much to say there, I think as far as uh oh,

1068
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:50,760
Speaker 1: this is a fun transition. Um Bruno's mom a k

1069
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:56,120
Speaker 1: as mom. I think she's just like she's characterized as

1070
01:08:56,760 --> 01:09:02,080
Speaker 1: very shrill, shrill and hysterical. Yes, and that's kind of

1071
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:05,519
Speaker 1: unchallenged both to be fair, like a lot of world

1072
01:09:05,760 --> 01:09:11,400
Speaker 1: roll Doll parents. They're just kind of incompetent assholes, um,

1073
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:14,400
Speaker 1: the both of them. But the way that they're incompetent

1074
01:09:14,400 --> 01:09:18,920
Speaker 1: assholes is very gendered for sure. Yes, but they are

1075
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:23,559
Speaker 1: bad parents. Speaking of Bruno, should we talk about Bruno?

1076
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:27,360
Speaker 1: There we go, we have we simply have to talk

1077
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:31,519
Speaker 1: about Bruno. No, no, actually, let's take another quick break

1078
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:43,200
Speaker 1: and then we will talk about Bruno. Okay, we're back

1079
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:47,599
Speaker 1: and we're talking about Bruno. So Bruno. I didn't realize.

1080
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:49,439
Speaker 1: I was sort of wondering. I'm like, is this the

1081
01:09:49,479 --> 01:09:53,960
Speaker 1: one Rold Doll movie where there's not whole sequence or

1082
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:57,519
Speaker 1: and or character dedicated to fat phobia? It is not.

1083
01:09:57,760 --> 01:10:01,360
Speaker 1: The character is still there. Um. Yeah, this is a

1084
01:10:01,439 --> 01:10:05,320
Speaker 1: very common theme in roll Doll's work. We talked about

1085
01:10:05,320 --> 01:10:09,360
Speaker 1: this extensively on the Matilda episode. There's a similar character

1086
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:14,200
Speaker 1: in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. If I'm remembering this correct. Yeah,

1087
01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:17,439
Speaker 1: So he's a kid who is fat and who is

1088
01:10:17,439 --> 01:10:22,280
Speaker 1: obsessed with food, which leads to his demise. And also

1089
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:25,120
Speaker 1: they much like they do with Bruno in the case

1090
01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:30,160
Speaker 1: of Augustus group, not only is the child punished and

1091
01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:32,559
Speaker 1: there's all of these troops that we we'll talk about.

1092
01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:37,760
Speaker 1: But roll Doll also specifically blames the parents in every

1093
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:41,760
Speaker 1: case because it Bruno's parents are also, you know, covertly

1094
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:45,880
Speaker 1: blamed for their child not being rail Finn, which is

1095
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:49,360
Speaker 1: for some reason roll Doll is like so in love

1096
01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:54,680
Speaker 1: with that idea of restriction and control. Um, but there

1097
01:10:54,800 --> 01:10:58,080
Speaker 1: was I was reading. There's a really good Slate piece

1098
01:10:58,760 --> 01:11:02,360
Speaker 1: about Rolled Dall and the way food is presented in

1099
01:11:02,479 --> 01:11:07,000
Speaker 1: his entire It's by Anna Lisa Quinn and it came

1100
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:11,680
Speaker 1: out in UM and she she points out a lot

1101
01:11:11,720 --> 01:11:15,320
Speaker 1: of different stuff, but she even, like I I appreciate

1102
01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:19,599
Speaker 1: she mentions the inverse as well, because Augustus Group much whatever.

1103
01:11:20,200 --> 01:11:22,640
Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll cover Willy Wonka at some point, but

1104
01:11:22,760 --> 01:11:26,320
Speaker 1: all the kids in that movie represent what Roald Dahl

1105
01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:30,960
Speaker 1: perceives to be a societal evil, usually related to consumption,

1106
01:11:31,400 --> 01:11:35,000
Speaker 1: and uh puts that blame on children that he kills.

1107
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:40,639
Speaker 1: Cool except for Charlie, who is famously boring. UM. But

1108
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:44,879
Speaker 1: the way so Augustus Group, you know, meets his demise,

1109
01:11:45,160 --> 01:11:48,439
Speaker 1: there's extreme body horror with him. He basically meets himself

1110
01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:53,120
Speaker 1: to debt like it's just it's it's really the but um,

1111
01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:58,240
Speaker 1: the inverse is also true where he talks about people

1112
01:11:58,479 --> 01:12:02,479
Speaker 1: and children in this is Charlie who like restrict themselves

1113
01:12:02,479 --> 01:12:06,760
Speaker 1: from eating as a very virtuous thing to do. So,

1114
01:12:06,880 --> 01:12:12,080
Speaker 1: like when Charlie first gets a candy bar, like Roldal

1115
01:12:12,120 --> 01:12:15,400
Speaker 1: spends a whole page describing how slowly he eats it

1116
01:12:15,800 --> 01:12:20,120
Speaker 1: and how like much control he exerts over himself. And

1117
01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:23,600
Speaker 1: that is like, not the reason but one of the

1118
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:28,120
Speaker 1: reasons that he is perceived as a more virtuous character,

1119
01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:36,240
Speaker 1: which is just like, you fucking weirdos. Give a hungry child,

1120
01:12:36,680 --> 01:12:39,400
Speaker 1: you're like, and that's practiced. Like, what the funk are

1121
01:12:39,439 --> 01:12:42,479
Speaker 1: you talking about? Um? Anyways, I'll reference that piece a

1122
01:12:42,479 --> 01:12:45,360
Speaker 1: little more, but let's talk about Bruno. Yes, so Bruno

1123
01:12:45,680 --> 01:12:48,760
Speaker 1: is a little chubby, and this is something that he

1124
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:52,040
Speaker 1: is punished for by the story throughout the entire movie,

1125
01:12:52,600 --> 01:12:56,720
Speaker 1: and the movie leans into a number of fat phobic stereotypes.

1126
01:12:57,360 --> 01:13:02,599
Speaker 1: For example, we meet him and he's scarfing down food.

1127
01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:06,679
Speaker 1: He is lowered in by the witches with the promise

1128
01:13:06,760 --> 01:13:10,640
Speaker 1: of several candy bars. He loves food so much that

1129
01:13:10,720 --> 01:13:14,080
Speaker 1: he doesn't notice that he got turned into a mouse

1130
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:21,880
Speaker 1: because he's too distracted by food. Yeah, um, when there's

1131
01:13:21,960 --> 01:13:25,480
Speaker 1: not a single line with him that passes without him

1132
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:29,639
Speaker 1: noticing the nearest food he is not, He's like, I mean,

1133
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:32,080
Speaker 1: I guess like I wanted Luke to be. I wanted

1134
01:13:32,080 --> 01:13:34,160
Speaker 1: all the kids to be more upset than they were mice.

1135
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:37,080
Speaker 1: Why are all the kids so fine with bi Literally

1136
01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:39,840
Speaker 1: the end, Luke's like, oh, yeah, I'm probably I'm gonna

1137
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:42,120
Speaker 1: die any day now, but it's all good, and You're

1138
01:13:42,160 --> 01:13:44,600
Speaker 1: just like, what the fuck. They're both like, oh, we

1139
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:46,839
Speaker 1: don't have to go to school or do homework anymore.

1140
01:13:47,120 --> 01:13:50,719
Speaker 1: Being a mouse is awesome. It's like, and you're never

1141
01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:56,040
Speaker 1: gonna have sex, like what they well, it's something that

1142
01:13:56,160 --> 01:13:58,439
Speaker 1: I was like, that's what I mean. It maybe that

1143
01:13:58,520 --> 01:14:00,840
Speaker 1: they're nine, that's not on their minds, but just like

1144
01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:06,240
Speaker 1: saying that sucks. But anyways, but but yeah, I mean, brute.

1145
01:14:06,320 --> 01:14:08,439
Speaker 1: The way that Bruno is unbothered about it is by

1146
01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:11,800
Speaker 1: only talking about food, which is also the only thing

1147
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:14,479
Speaker 1: that he talked about when he was a human child. Yes,

1148
01:14:14,680 --> 01:14:19,719
Speaker 1: there's also when mouse Bruno and mouse Luke are running

1149
01:14:19,720 --> 01:14:23,280
Speaker 1: away from the witches, Bruno complains about having to run.

1150
01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:26,200
Speaker 1: He says it gives him indigestion. He doesn't like it.

1151
01:14:26,520 --> 01:14:30,240
Speaker 1: He's um. He says something like, no more sports because

1152
01:14:30,280 --> 01:14:33,880
Speaker 1: they're running away to safety. Um. And then and then

1153
01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:37,400
Speaker 1: the last time we see his character on screen is

1154
01:14:37,920 --> 01:14:40,800
Speaker 1: Luke's grandma telling Bruno that he needs to go on

1155
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:44,759
Speaker 1: a diet and then I know. And then Bruno saying

1156
01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:47,760
Speaker 1: to his mom, Oh, mom, you always wanted me to

1157
01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:51,280
Speaker 1: lose weight. Well, now I'm a mouse, and she as

1158
01:14:51,280 --> 01:14:53,479
Speaker 1: if to say, I lost a bunch of weight because

1159
01:14:53,479 --> 01:14:57,200
Speaker 1: I'm a rodent now. Um, and she's like, I'm hysterical,

1160
01:14:57,360 --> 01:15:01,040
Speaker 1: So I can't respond to that at this time. But um,

1161
01:15:01,080 --> 01:15:04,600
Speaker 1: and I think that, like when I mean, everyone's transformation

1162
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:07,719
Speaker 1: into a mouse is horrific. But I felt I felt

1163
01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:10,839
Speaker 1: like the way that Bruno was transformed was also pointed

1164
01:15:11,120 --> 01:15:12,960
Speaker 1: in the way that it was designed because his like

1165
01:15:13,040 --> 01:15:18,599
Speaker 1: belly is exposed, whereas when Luke is transformed into a mouse,

1166
01:15:18,680 --> 01:15:21,000
Speaker 1: you don't even really see it. You're just kind of

1167
01:15:21,040 --> 01:15:25,840
Speaker 1: like the camera is is untransformed and he's naked, questioned naked,

1168
01:15:26,040 --> 01:15:29,559
Speaker 1: and you're like, did what did I just see? I

1169
01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:31,360
Speaker 1: was like, I'm not going to rewind that, but I'm

1170
01:15:32,840 --> 01:15:35,400
Speaker 1: I'm like, I like that one I was just like,

1171
01:15:35,479 --> 01:15:37,759
Speaker 1: I'm not touching that one. I don't want the fuck.

1172
01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:42,400
Speaker 1: I hope I was wrong, but yeah, I'm like, well,

1173
01:15:42,439 --> 01:15:45,519
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what I saw, but he's definitely naked,

1174
01:15:45,560 --> 01:15:50,479
Speaker 1: and we maybe saw too much. UM. Basically the point

1175
01:15:50,520 --> 01:15:54,200
Speaker 1: is this story, and it seems like most, if not all,

1176
01:15:54,280 --> 01:15:59,800
Speaker 1: of Rhodol's work are making very harsh judgments against fat

1177
01:15:59,840 --> 01:16:02,800
Speaker 1: and us and saying that fat people and fat kids

1178
01:16:02,880 --> 01:16:08,120
Speaker 1: especially are ravenous. They're greedy, they're lazy, it's their fault

1179
01:16:08,439 --> 01:16:11,120
Speaker 1: that they're fat, and being fat is a bad thing.

1180
01:16:11,280 --> 01:16:14,760
Speaker 1: And that's a common theme throughout his work, and it's

1181
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:19,200
Speaker 1: very much on display here in this story, and it's

1182
01:16:19,200 --> 01:16:24,840
Speaker 1: a very common theme across everything. But like across children's literature. UM.

1183
01:16:24,880 --> 01:16:28,760
Speaker 1: I did a little bit of research to this end,

1184
01:16:28,920 --> 01:16:32,200
Speaker 1: because with Roald dall Um, the examples that came to

1185
01:16:32,240 --> 01:16:34,599
Speaker 1: mind were, um, I forget the name of the character

1186
01:16:34,640 --> 01:16:39,000
Speaker 1: in Matilda, but the cake scene in Matilda, Augustus Gloop,

1187
01:16:39,560 --> 01:16:45,479
Speaker 1: and now Bruno, who I recently learned exists. UM. But um,

1188
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:49,880
Speaker 1: fat phobia is so rampant in children's literature, especially like

1189
01:16:50,120 --> 01:16:53,400
Speaker 1: and it's something that unfortunately, like we still need to

1190
01:16:53,439 --> 01:16:57,080
Speaker 1: be very mindful of because all this ship is getting

1191
01:16:57,120 --> 01:16:59,559
Speaker 1: readapted because you're not allowed to write a new story

1192
01:16:59,640 --> 01:17:03,360
Speaker 1: any so whatever, I'm being a drama queen, but you

1193
01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:09,000
Speaker 1: know this is being readapted. So I found piece by

1194
01:17:09,040 --> 01:17:13,559
Speaker 1: Rebecca Rabinowitz. She wrote something called Who's that Fat Kid?

1195
01:17:13,680 --> 01:17:17,559
Speaker 1: Fat Politics and Children's Literature for the Children's Book Council

1196
01:17:17,640 --> 01:17:22,920
Speaker 1: Diversity Blog UM, and she kind of um unpacks a

1197
01:17:22,920 --> 01:17:26,200
Speaker 1: lot of tropes that are leveraged against fat or just

1198
01:17:26,320 --> 01:17:31,320
Speaker 1: not finned children in general. In books, they're often characterized

1199
01:17:31,360 --> 01:17:36,600
Speaker 1: as of lower intelligence. They're characterized as hyper fixated on

1200
01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:41,960
Speaker 1: food and defined by hunger and or fatness, and they're

1201
01:17:42,080 --> 01:17:46,639
Speaker 1: very often found to be either bullies or the victims

1202
01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:51,200
Speaker 1: of bullying. And I honestly as I didn't I I

1203
01:17:51,280 --> 01:17:55,639
Speaker 1: don't know if the bully trope ever really like clocked

1204
01:17:55,880 --> 01:17:57,800
Speaker 1: for me. But then when she unpacked it, I was like, oh,

1205
01:17:57,840 --> 01:18:01,720
Speaker 1: that actually makes sense. She's uh. Basically every bully in

1206
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:06,799
Speaker 1: the Harry Potter books is fat. There's Dudley Crab and Goyle.

1207
01:18:07,439 --> 01:18:10,920
Speaker 1: Um are all kids that are not rayl fin like

1208
01:18:11,479 --> 01:18:14,280
Speaker 1: Harry Potter and our Luke um. And then there's also

1209
01:18:14,479 --> 01:18:18,880
Speaker 1: a lot of fat characters that are bullied. It's just whatever.

1210
01:18:18,920 --> 01:18:23,120
Speaker 1: It's just like defining someone by their experience. Um. It's

1211
01:18:23,120 --> 01:18:26,640
Speaker 1: been found that anti fat attitudes begin as early as

1212
01:18:26,720 --> 01:18:30,960
Speaker 1: age three, and another study found that children are less

1213
01:18:30,960 --> 01:18:34,840
Speaker 1: likely to want to be friends with fat characters, which

1214
01:18:35,320 --> 01:18:37,759
Speaker 1: is not the fault of the children, it's the fault

1215
01:18:37,760 --> 01:18:41,720
Speaker 1: of how fat characters are presented to them, and and

1216
01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:45,880
Speaker 1: also that they're very rarely main characters. Um, there's always

1217
01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:50,599
Speaker 1: they're either a best friend or a bully or uh,

1218
01:18:50,640 --> 01:18:54,720
Speaker 1: you know, side character that a thin hero needs to

1219
01:18:54,800 --> 01:19:00,360
Speaker 1: rescue from bullying. So I just wanted to shout out that, Um,

1220
01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:05,080
Speaker 1: Rebecca Rabinowitz piece, it was very helpful. Also just rolled

1221
01:19:05,120 --> 01:19:08,680
Speaker 1: all Um loves to talk about, like James and the

1222
01:19:08,720 --> 01:19:12,240
Speaker 1: Giant Peach. Also, like there's just there's just so much

1223
01:19:12,439 --> 01:19:17,599
Speaker 1: is his obsession with people's body sizes and food and

1224
01:19:18,120 --> 01:19:23,840
Speaker 1: the restriction thereof I'll say it, I'm glad he's dead. Uh, well,

1225
01:19:23,880 --> 01:19:26,320
Speaker 1: he would rather be dead than fat, and so he

1226
01:19:26,760 --> 01:19:33,040
Speaker 1: got his wish. Okay, bye, yeah, good riddance. So yeah yeah.

1227
01:19:33,600 --> 01:19:35,479
Speaker 1: The last thing I want to just touch on a

1228
01:19:35,560 --> 01:19:42,639
Speaker 1: bit more is the just witches and the representation of

1229
01:19:42,680 --> 01:19:47,240
Speaker 1: them in media. We've talked about the portrayal of which

1230
01:19:47,320 --> 01:19:51,000
Speaker 1: is in other episodes such as The Love Witch, and

1231
01:19:52,840 --> 01:19:56,479
Speaker 1: of course I think that that's probably where we did

1232
01:19:56,479 --> 01:20:02,080
Speaker 1: at the best, The VIC and The Love which yeah,

1233
01:20:02,640 --> 01:20:05,360
Speaker 1: iconic episodes. Sorry, I was just thinking of other movies

1234
01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:07,360
Speaker 1: we've covered that had witches, but I don't think that

1235
01:20:07,400 --> 01:20:11,360
Speaker 1: we got as in depth hocus Pocus the Craft, which

1236
01:20:11,400 --> 01:20:14,280
Speaker 1: is of Eastwick the Craft. We've covered a lot of

1237
01:20:14,280 --> 01:20:18,000
Speaker 1: witch movies. There's well, because all women are witches, um,

1238
01:20:18,040 --> 01:20:20,880
Speaker 1: and I mean, and that's a fact. I love the

1239
01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:24,280
Speaker 1: right kind of witch media, you know, is it can

1240
01:20:24,320 --> 01:20:28,280
Speaker 1: be some of the greatest ship in the world. But

1241
01:20:28,280 --> 01:20:32,160
Speaker 1: but that is not often how which is are presented

1242
01:20:32,280 --> 01:20:35,240
Speaker 1: in media. So we've talked about the various tropes that

1243
01:20:35,439 --> 01:20:40,280
Speaker 1: surround which characters and stories about which is. Um. We've

1244
01:20:40,600 --> 01:20:46,479
Speaker 1: unpacked a little bit the historical context of people, usually women,

1245
01:20:46,880 --> 01:20:51,679
Speaker 1: who have been perceived as being witches and the literal

1246
01:20:51,800 --> 01:20:56,040
Speaker 1: witch hunts that have happened throughout history. I've referenced this

1247
01:20:56,080 --> 01:20:59,320
Speaker 1: book before. I'll recommend it again, the book which is

1248
01:20:59,479 --> 01:21:05,760
Speaker 1: Sluts Feminists by Kristen J. Sole, which dives into that

1249
01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:12,000
Speaker 1: historical context and, among among other things, but basically, again,

1250
01:21:12,120 --> 01:21:16,679
Speaker 1: people and especially women throughout history who have just not

1251
01:21:16,960 --> 01:21:21,920
Speaker 1: fit the mold of very rigid gender roles and expectations,

1252
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:27,600
Speaker 1: and that ranges from anything to like interest or profession,

1253
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:33,479
Speaker 1: their sexuality. They're just physical presentation, all manner of things,

1254
01:21:34,120 --> 01:21:37,839
Speaker 1: and just a fundamental misunderstanding of women in their bodies

1255
01:21:38,160 --> 01:21:42,400
Speaker 1: has led to the perception that a bunch of women

1256
01:21:42,520 --> 01:21:46,680
Speaker 1: must be witches. This movie leans into a lot of

1257
01:21:46,720 --> 01:21:50,839
Speaker 1: those tropes because it, you know, it demonizes women who

1258
01:21:51,320 --> 01:21:55,840
Speaker 1: don't want children, It demonizes older women, it demonizes The

1259
01:21:55,880 --> 01:21:58,200
Speaker 1: movie doesn't come out and say this, really, but if

1260
01:21:58,320 --> 01:22:01,400
Speaker 1: it seems like all these women are also unmarried, I

1261
01:22:01,439 --> 01:22:03,720
Speaker 1: think that kind of comes with a territory of like,

1262
01:22:03,920 --> 01:22:06,679
Speaker 1: I guess that I I can't prove that they are

1263
01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:10,080
Speaker 1: unmarried and childless, but I would. I would put money

1264
01:22:10,200 --> 01:22:12,719
Speaker 1: on that that's what we're supposed to believe, because any

1265
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:14,920
Speaker 1: woman we know that has a child or married, we

1266
01:22:14,960 --> 01:22:17,519
Speaker 1: see them with their husband or their kid. I think

1267
01:22:17,560 --> 01:22:20,559
Speaker 1: that there's also just like a thing with which is that.

1268
01:22:20,800 --> 01:22:23,040
Speaker 1: I'm sure we've talked about this at some point, but

1269
01:22:23,400 --> 01:22:27,000
Speaker 1: not only is it, you know, a way to rationalize

1270
01:22:27,520 --> 01:22:33,640
Speaker 1: not adhering to the rigid expectations of women across cultures.

1271
01:22:33,640 --> 01:22:35,880
Speaker 1: And that's like another thing where it's like we are

1272
01:22:36,040 --> 01:22:40,479
Speaker 1: so focused on um, you know, characters who are white,

1273
01:22:40,560 --> 01:22:45,240
Speaker 1: who are which is when? Which culture is with with?

1274
01:22:45,439 --> 01:22:49,599
Speaker 1: I think very few exceptions a universal thing. Misogyny really

1275
01:22:50,479 --> 01:22:55,040
Speaker 1: is everywhere in most places and has been forever. But

1276
01:22:55,080 --> 01:22:58,240
Speaker 1: I think it it also is like in uh meant

1277
01:22:58,280 --> 01:23:04,320
Speaker 1: to inherently discourage or to imply that, um, women talking

1278
01:23:04,360 --> 01:23:08,559
Speaker 1: to each other means something bad. It is like a

1279
01:23:08,600 --> 01:23:10,880
Speaker 1: force of evil for women to talk to each other

1280
01:23:10,920 --> 01:23:14,280
Speaker 1: because whatever, You don't want them to start getting ideas

1281
01:23:15,280 --> 01:23:18,040
Speaker 1: uh and talk to each other about how scary the

1282
01:23:18,080 --> 01:23:21,519
Speaker 1: men around them might be. Well, that's I literally was

1283
01:23:21,560 --> 01:23:24,040
Speaker 1: thinking about because I'm always thinking about hot dogs. But

1284
01:23:24,040 --> 01:23:27,519
Speaker 1: there's a thing that I, um, there's a story that

1285
01:23:27,680 --> 01:23:30,519
Speaker 1: I talk about in the Hot Dog Book, which you

1286
01:23:30,520 --> 01:23:34,160
Speaker 1: can pre order now. Yeah, do it. So. One of

1287
01:23:34,160 --> 01:23:35,800
Speaker 1: the anecdotes that really stuck out to me that I

1288
01:23:35,800 --> 01:23:40,160
Speaker 1: know I've told you before, UM is the creator of

1289
01:23:40,280 --> 01:23:44,400
Speaker 1: Auntie AND's Pretzels, who are famous for their pretzel dogs,

1290
01:23:44,800 --> 01:23:49,240
Speaker 1: was from an Amish community, UM, where women are you know,

1291
01:23:49,360 --> 01:23:52,639
Speaker 1: not encouraged to talk to each other, especially about something traumatic,

1292
01:23:52,800 --> 01:23:55,040
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of shame, as there are in

1293
01:23:55,720 --> 01:23:58,439
Speaker 1: across most religions. I'm not trying to target the Amish

1294
01:23:58,479 --> 01:24:02,559
Speaker 1: community specifically. Sure she you know, she she was being

1295
01:24:02,920 --> 01:24:06,679
Speaker 1: abused by a priest in the community, and it wasn't

1296
01:24:06,760 --> 01:24:09,439
Speaker 1: until she spoke to the community of women that she

1297
01:24:09,520 --> 01:24:12,240
Speaker 1: found out everyone was being abused by the priest and

1298
01:24:12,280 --> 01:24:17,679
Speaker 1: the priest was weaponizing the inherent shame that came with

1299
01:24:18,280 --> 01:24:25,200
Speaker 1: religion and also communing among women that you know protected him. Well,

1300
01:24:25,240 --> 01:24:29,599
Speaker 1: if women commune, they become a coven and are which

1301
01:24:29,720 --> 01:24:32,640
Speaker 1: is right. I mean, it's just sucking, but it's like,

1302
01:24:32,680 --> 01:24:39,000
Speaker 1: it's true. It's just it's ridiculous. But yeah, yeah, all

1303
01:24:39,080 --> 01:24:44,400
Speaker 1: this to say that women have been perceived as witches

1304
01:24:44,640 --> 01:24:49,120
Speaker 1: throughout history and punished and killed for it time and

1305
01:24:49,120 --> 01:24:54,920
Speaker 1: time again because they defy gender roles and expectations, and

1306
01:24:54,960 --> 01:24:59,480
Speaker 1: then harmful tropes in media and and you know, entertainment

1307
01:24:59,479 --> 01:25:05,719
Speaker 1: and literature, cinema, etcetera have arisen a rose. I don't

1308
01:25:06,360 --> 01:25:10,720
Speaker 1: don't remember it sounds good how to speak, but they've

1309
01:25:10,800 --> 01:25:17,600
Speaker 1: emerged over the years without like challenging all the sexism

1310
01:25:17,680 --> 01:25:23,280
Speaker 1: inherent in perceiving women as witches. And they're just like, yeah, no,

1311
01:25:23,400 --> 01:25:26,719
Speaker 1: witches are evil and a lot of women are witches,

1312
01:25:26,960 --> 01:25:30,679
Speaker 1: and therefore a lot of women are evil and this movie,

1313
01:25:31,320 --> 01:25:37,080
Speaker 1: this story just presents that as a simple fact. So yes,

1314
01:25:37,200 --> 01:25:40,040
Speaker 1: and I think that it is just like a I

1315
01:25:40,040 --> 01:25:42,760
Speaker 1: don't know, I I understand why. And also it's like

1316
01:25:43,280 --> 01:25:45,760
Speaker 1: I hate I need to stop thinking of like what

1317
01:25:45,840 --> 01:25:48,880
Speaker 1: are people going to be mad at us about now? Um,

1318
01:25:48,920 --> 01:25:52,200
Speaker 1: But just for the sake of saying it, we understand

1319
01:25:52,240 --> 01:25:54,040
Speaker 1: that this is a very campy movie. There are a

1320
01:25:54,080 --> 01:25:57,080
Speaker 1: lot of elements of this movie that are really really reclaimable,

1321
01:25:57,240 --> 01:26:01,200
Speaker 1: Like sure, but it's our job to get the text.

1322
01:26:01,320 --> 01:26:05,000
Speaker 1: And this is, you know, based on really anti semitic

1323
01:26:05,080 --> 01:26:10,120
Speaker 1: children's book. So um, you know, I I understand why

1324
01:26:10,400 --> 01:26:13,640
Speaker 1: people like this movie. I understand why it's campy, but

1325
01:26:13,760 --> 01:26:17,120
Speaker 1: we just don't have any attachment to it. I fear right,

1326
01:26:17,200 --> 01:26:20,759
Speaker 1: that's it's true. Um. Another like trope that gets leaned

1327
01:26:20,760 --> 01:26:23,240
Speaker 1: into is like the woman or the witch as a

1328
01:26:23,320 --> 01:26:27,760
Speaker 1: sed actress to like kind of lure someone in This

1329
01:26:27,840 --> 01:26:32,559
Speaker 1: happened in the Vivich where sometimes the Viviach presents, as

1330
01:26:32,920 --> 01:26:37,439
Speaker 1: you know, of a traditionally beautiful seductress who's like walking

1331
01:26:37,439 --> 01:26:41,120
Speaker 1: around naked in the woods to lure people in. But

1332
01:26:41,200 --> 01:26:44,280
Speaker 1: then when you see her in her quote unquote true form,

1333
01:26:44,320 --> 01:26:48,120
Speaker 1: that's leaning into another trope, which is an older woman

1334
01:26:48,200 --> 01:26:52,719
Speaker 1: who does not you know, have a victorious secret model body.

1335
01:26:53,280 --> 01:26:57,960
Speaker 1: Um is evil and scary. Uh So the director Nicholas

1336
01:26:58,040 --> 01:27:04,120
Speaker 1: Rogue deliberately costumed Angelica Houston too, like have you know

1337
01:27:04,160 --> 01:27:07,559
Speaker 1: she's wearing like a sleek black dress which like shows

1338
01:27:07,640 --> 01:27:12,479
Speaker 1: Cleavagh's mortisia hang out. Yeah, right, and um, that was

1339
01:27:12,520 --> 01:27:15,120
Speaker 1: a very deliberate choice. He wanted the grand high witch

1340
01:27:15,840 --> 01:27:19,880
Speaker 1: when she's like Angelica Houston, uh and not a horrible

1341
01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:25,080
Speaker 1: anti Semitic stereotype to have sex appeal. And then and

1342
01:27:25,080 --> 01:27:28,200
Speaker 1: then you see like is it Bruno's dad who's hitting

1343
01:27:28,240 --> 01:27:32,479
Speaker 1: on Angelica Houston in various scenes? Yes, and then you

1344
01:27:32,520 --> 01:27:36,200
Speaker 1: get a dirty look from Bruno's mom. Um, Yeah, I

1345
01:27:36,240 --> 01:27:40,439
Speaker 1: mean that's at least if I'm going to reclaim one

1346
01:27:40,520 --> 01:27:43,600
Speaker 1: of those elements, I guess that that's one of the

1347
01:27:43,640 --> 01:27:46,600
Speaker 1: more reclaimable things. To me is like you know, I

1348
01:27:46,840 --> 01:27:50,200
Speaker 1: feel like whatever, that's a two pronged thing for me,

1349
01:27:50,200 --> 01:27:53,479
Speaker 1: where it's like sometimes it's like yeah, especially because this

1350
01:27:53,680 --> 01:27:57,640
Speaker 1: is written, scripted, designed and shaped entirely by men. I

1351
01:27:57,640 --> 01:28:00,719
Speaker 1: feel like there is this assumption that it is scary.

1352
01:28:01,200 --> 01:28:04,920
Speaker 1: A scary thing of woman can do is like manipulate

1353
01:28:05,000 --> 01:28:11,600
Speaker 1: you with her body and sexuality. But also I like when, uh,

1354
01:28:11,680 --> 01:28:16,240
Speaker 1: when that does happen because all of the men too,

1355
01:28:16,560 --> 01:28:19,599
Speaker 1: If nothing else, all of the men in this movie

1356
01:28:19,720 --> 01:28:26,080
Speaker 1: are pretty incompetent and and horny. Yeah, horny and incompetent

1357
01:28:26,200 --> 01:28:32,160
Speaker 1: and like horrible basically useless. Like it's the kids, and um,

1358
01:28:32,200 --> 01:28:36,480
Speaker 1: the women are fully the only like you know, active characters.

1359
01:28:36,560 --> 01:28:38,760
Speaker 1: Like there's things that like Mr Bean tries to do,

1360
01:28:38,880 --> 01:28:40,880
Speaker 1: but he's not really successful in any of it. And

1361
01:28:40,960 --> 01:28:42,880
Speaker 1: the same goes for Bruno's dad, and those are kind

1362
01:28:42,920 --> 01:28:47,679
Speaker 1: of the only male characters. And so sure that's fun.

1363
01:28:48,120 --> 01:28:54,120
Speaker 1: Uh And what I I mean Angelica Houston, I just

1364
01:28:54,160 --> 01:28:56,400
Speaker 1: love her so much. I just yeah, but this movie

1365
01:28:56,520 --> 01:29:02,799
Speaker 1: is not not good to do anything else. I don't

1366
01:29:03,360 --> 01:29:10,439
Speaker 1: think so me either, Yeah, I I this movie does

1367
01:29:11,120 --> 01:29:13,519
Speaker 1: pass the back toll test, not as much as I

1368
01:29:13,560 --> 01:29:15,880
Speaker 1: would have thought. There's a lot of Grandma and Luke,

1369
01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:20,519
Speaker 1: Grandmat and Luke, Bruno and Luke, and then Angelica Houston

1370
01:29:21,080 --> 01:29:23,200
Speaker 1: will talk to other witches but we don't know who

1371
01:29:23,240 --> 01:29:25,880
Speaker 1: most of what most of their names are true. I

1372
01:29:25,880 --> 01:29:28,720
Speaker 1: would say that the only witches that are remotely characterized

1373
01:29:28,720 --> 01:29:33,200
Speaker 1: are her Eva and kind of Susan and a few

1374
01:29:33,200 --> 01:29:37,519
Speaker 1: of their exchanges would pass. But on in such an

1375
01:29:37,560 --> 01:29:41,479
Speaker 1: overwhelmingly you know, women driven movie, Um, I kind of

1376
01:29:41,479 --> 01:29:44,839
Speaker 1: thought it would happen more. It does happen though. Yeah. True,

1377
01:29:45,160 --> 01:29:48,840
Speaker 1: But how about that nipple scale of ours? Wow, that's

1378
01:29:48,880 --> 01:29:53,439
Speaker 1: what really counts. That's a really major metric here, boy,

1379
01:29:53,479 --> 01:29:58,480
Speaker 1: I mean, so zero to five nipples. Based on examining

1380
01:29:58,479 --> 01:30:03,200
Speaker 1: the movie through an interest actional feminist lens, yeah, I would.

1381
01:30:03,560 --> 01:30:09,680
Speaker 1: I would say between the blatant anti semitism, sexism, and

1382
01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:12,800
Speaker 1: fat phobia, you know, not not going to get very

1383
01:30:12,840 --> 01:30:16,120
Speaker 1: high marks. If you don't have any attachment to this movie,

1384
01:30:16,680 --> 01:30:19,320
Speaker 1: I wouldn't watch it. I don't know. There's so many

1385
01:30:19,600 --> 01:30:24,520
Speaker 1: better movies that have the themes that this movie is mishandling.

1386
01:30:24,600 --> 01:30:27,479
Speaker 1: Like I love body horror, I just don't like what

1387
01:30:27,640 --> 01:30:31,479
Speaker 1: it's anti semitic, like, you know, like there's there's just

1388
01:30:31,720 --> 01:30:35,120
Speaker 1: for anything that the people hold onto for nostalgic reasons

1389
01:30:35,120 --> 01:30:38,160
Speaker 1: to this movie. There is a movie that does the

1390
01:30:38,200 --> 01:30:41,719
Speaker 1: same thing better so if you haven't seen it, Honestly,

1391
01:30:41,920 --> 01:30:46,280
Speaker 1: I wouldn't bother skip it. Yeah, but I guess you know.

1392
01:30:46,760 --> 01:30:52,080
Speaker 1: I like the Little Mouse puppets. I mean the hands. Yeah,

1393
01:30:52,120 --> 01:30:55,680
Speaker 1: there's uh whatever though no funck the mice. I don't know.

1394
01:30:55,960 --> 01:31:00,600
Speaker 1: I just like this movie. This movie, I didn't like it.

1395
01:31:00,600 --> 01:31:03,120
Speaker 1: It's uh, it's doing a lot of bad things. Um,

1396
01:31:03,160 --> 01:31:05,799
Speaker 1: I'll give it any nippies. I'll give it one nipple

1397
01:31:05,960 --> 01:31:15,519
Speaker 1: for it's potentially reclaimable stuff. Mostly I just love Angelica Houston.

1398
01:31:16,160 --> 01:31:20,360
Speaker 1: But maybe it doesn't even deserve nipple. I'll drop it

1399
01:31:20,400 --> 01:31:23,519
Speaker 1: down to a half nipple and I'll give it to

1400
01:31:24,439 --> 01:31:30,200
Speaker 1: Angelica Houston as Morticia Adams. Yeah, I'm gonna do it

1401
01:31:30,320 --> 01:31:35,639
Speaker 1: half as well. I just, uh, it like, is not

1402
01:31:35,720 --> 01:31:39,559
Speaker 1: that this super matters, but just personally griping it annoys

1403
01:31:39,600 --> 01:31:42,920
Speaker 1: me when there's like a movie that I feel like

1404
01:31:43,320 --> 01:31:46,320
Speaker 1: I should like because I love body horror and I

1405
01:31:46,400 --> 01:31:50,280
Speaker 1: love casts of women doing evil shit, and I love

1406
01:31:50,280 --> 01:31:54,680
Speaker 1: Angelica Houston and so you know, on its face, but

1407
01:31:54,840 --> 01:31:57,160
Speaker 1: it's just like it just pissed me off to watch.

1408
01:31:57,160 --> 01:31:59,439
Speaker 1: I didn't like it for all the reasons We've been

1409
01:31:59,439 --> 01:32:02,200
Speaker 1: talking about for two hours now. So I'm just gonna

1410
01:32:02,240 --> 01:32:05,360
Speaker 1: give it a half nipple for camp and I'm gonna

1411
01:32:05,360 --> 01:32:08,639
Speaker 1: give it to the mom who gets you know, nuked

1412
01:32:08,720 --> 01:32:11,800
Speaker 1: in the first two seconds of the movie. Um, I

1413
01:32:11,920 --> 01:32:14,400
Speaker 1: didn't know what her name was, but she was I

1414
01:32:14,479 --> 01:32:18,280
Speaker 1: did appreciate that she was like Grandma stopped telling Luke

1415
01:32:18,360 --> 01:32:25,280
Speaker 1: all your misogynist conspiracy theories, and Grandma was like, yeah, yeah,

1416
01:32:25,320 --> 01:32:27,080
Speaker 1: so I'll give it. I'll give it to her, but

1417
01:32:27,320 --> 01:32:31,479
Speaker 1: um yeah, this this bummed me out. This bummed me out.

1418
01:32:32,479 --> 01:32:36,840
Speaker 1: So uh, that's the Witches. Oh the thing. I was

1419
01:32:36,840 --> 01:32:38,960
Speaker 1: gonna say, well, we'll talk about it in on a

1420
01:32:39,000 --> 01:32:43,760
Speaker 1: Matrion episode. But the reason that we cannot because I

1421
01:32:43,880 --> 01:32:48,080
Speaker 1: honestly I would have watched movie. So here's a little PostScript.

1422
01:32:48,400 --> 01:32:51,160
Speaker 1: I would have watched thee to prepare for this episode.

1423
01:32:51,360 --> 01:32:54,280
Speaker 1: But you literally, at least in the US, I'm pretty

1424
01:32:54,280 --> 01:32:57,000
Speaker 1: sure this is true across the board. You literally cannot.

1425
01:32:57,360 --> 01:32:59,760
Speaker 1: It is media that came out less than two years

1426
01:32:59,760 --> 01:33:05,840
Speaker 1: ago that is no longer available anymore. You can't because

1427
01:33:05,960 --> 01:33:09,320
Speaker 1: there is like this horrible thing going on right now

1428
01:33:09,439 --> 01:33:13,120
Speaker 1: that is like I researched it very intensely because the

1429
01:33:13,160 --> 01:33:15,759
Speaker 1: production of a show I'm working on is like really

1430
01:33:15,800 --> 01:33:19,200
Speaker 1: tied up in all of this ship. But Warner Brothers

1431
01:33:19,280 --> 01:33:25,360
Speaker 1: and HBO, they're like legally making existing you know, art,

1432
01:33:25,439 --> 01:33:31,000
Speaker 1: whether it's good or not. Because I hear that, but

1433
01:33:31,000 --> 01:33:34,360
Speaker 1: but you shouldn't be allowed to disappear. You know a

1434
01:33:34,360 --> 01:33:36,879
Speaker 1: movie that came out two years ago, it's just absolutely

1435
01:33:36,880 --> 01:33:40,200
Speaker 1: and it's not being done because it was offensive. It

1436
01:33:40,280 --> 01:33:43,040
Speaker 1: was not being done because it wasn't good. Bad movies

1437
01:33:43,080 --> 01:33:46,400
Speaker 1: exist fucking everywhere. It's being done because it is like

1438
01:33:46,479 --> 01:33:49,559
Speaker 1: a corporate loophole that was just made possible by the

1439
01:33:49,560 --> 01:33:53,120
Speaker 1: Supreme Court a couple of years ago that allows huge

1440
01:33:53,160 --> 01:33:58,960
Speaker 1: companies like Warner Brothers and like HBO to make stuff

1441
01:33:58,960 --> 01:34:02,160
Speaker 1: disappear in order to not pay taxes, in order to

1442
01:34:02,160 --> 01:34:04,720
Speaker 1: consolidate money and not pay taxes. So it's all a

1443
01:34:04,840 --> 01:34:10,120
Speaker 1: fucking like if you watch the movie and hated it,

1444
01:34:10,400 --> 01:34:12,479
Speaker 1: I wish I could have watched it and hated it too,

1445
01:34:12,520 --> 01:34:15,920
Speaker 1: because it's just like I think it's corporate evil, and

1446
01:34:15,960 --> 01:34:19,280
Speaker 1: I think it's really disrespectful to people who worked hard

1447
01:34:19,400 --> 01:34:22,439
Speaker 1: and made a whole fucking movie. Even if that movie sucks.

1448
01:34:23,000 --> 01:34:25,880
Speaker 1: You shouldn't be allowed to disappear something like that. Um,

1449
01:34:26,200 --> 01:34:29,200
Speaker 1: And it's been happening to a lot of people, so

1450
01:34:29,280 --> 01:34:32,320
Speaker 1: I'm just personally piste off about it. And literally, as

1451
01:34:32,360 --> 01:34:35,719
Speaker 1: we were recording this cartoon network got shut down. So

1452
01:34:36,120 --> 01:34:39,519
Speaker 1: what Yeah, I'm a fucking animation writer. I just like,

1453
01:34:39,560 --> 01:34:42,920
Speaker 1: I hate this ship so much. Um, so the Witches,

1454
01:34:43,080 --> 01:34:45,840
Speaker 1: you know, the Witch is. Will it be missed very much?

1455
01:34:46,280 --> 01:34:49,880
Speaker 1: Probably not? But but you know, CEO shouldn't get to

1456
01:34:49,920 --> 01:34:52,439
Speaker 1: decide what art exists in the world and what doesn't.

1457
01:34:52,439 --> 01:34:55,400
Speaker 1: That's a fucking nasty precedent and I hate it. Uh

1458
01:34:55,439 --> 01:35:03,519
Speaker 1: And on that note, goodbye, Yes, uh, thanks for listening. Um.

1459
01:35:03,560 --> 01:35:07,799
Speaker 1: You can follow us on social media at spectel cast,

1460
01:35:07,960 --> 01:35:12,000
Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram. Hey, because it's just us, I'm

1461
01:35:12,000 --> 01:35:16,599
Speaker 1: gonna plug my social media. You can follow me on

1462
01:35:16,840 --> 01:35:21,360
Speaker 1: those same platforms at Caitlin Durante and Hey, Jamie, do

1463
01:35:21,439 --> 01:35:24,080
Speaker 1: you have anything that you want to plug? Maybe like

1464
01:35:24,320 --> 01:35:28,240
Speaker 1: a book about hot dogs or anything. If you want

1465
01:35:28,240 --> 01:35:31,000
Speaker 1: to buy my book about hot dogs, it is available

1466
01:35:31,040 --> 01:35:34,439
Speaker 1: for pre sale now. It's called raw Dog, The Naked

1467
01:35:34,439 --> 01:35:37,200
Speaker 1: Truth about hot Dogs by Jamie Loftus comes to you,

1468
01:35:38,040 --> 01:35:41,200
Speaker 1: That's me. It comes out in stores on May nine,

1469
01:35:41,280 --> 01:35:45,280
Speaker 1: but uh, pre sales are cheaper and really helpful. Um,

1470
01:35:45,320 --> 01:35:48,160
Speaker 1: I would recommend, and we'll link this in the description,

1471
01:35:48,160 --> 01:35:50,639
Speaker 1: I would recommend you buy it on bookshop dot org.

1472
01:35:51,160 --> 01:35:53,719
Speaker 1: It's a really cool website. It's where I got mine,

1473
01:35:54,160 --> 01:35:57,240
Speaker 1: and it connects you to your nearest local independent seller

1474
01:35:57,640 --> 01:35:59,800
Speaker 1: and you save money. Please don't buy the book on

1475
01:36:00,080 --> 01:36:02,479
Speaker 1: us on I'll be so sad. So there you go,

1476
01:36:03,280 --> 01:36:05,200
Speaker 1: and I really hope you watch it, and you can

1477
01:36:05,240 --> 01:36:08,320
Speaker 1: get our merch at t public dot com slash becktel cast.

1478
01:36:08,840 --> 01:36:11,120
Speaker 1: You can follow you don't have to follow me online.

1479
01:36:11,160 --> 01:36:14,519
Speaker 1: I need to get off that fucking thing. Anyways, it's toxic.

1480
01:36:14,880 --> 01:36:17,080
Speaker 1: We're the first people who have ever said that. Um,

1481
01:36:17,479 --> 01:36:20,320
Speaker 1: but hey, you know what's not toxic is our Matreon

1482
01:36:21,880 --> 01:36:26,360
Speaker 1: matres a little toxic, it's a little chaotic, I would say. Um,

1483
01:36:26,439 --> 01:36:29,519
Speaker 1: you can subscribe to that at Patreon dot com slash

1484
01:36:29,560 --> 01:36:33,719
Speaker 1: becktel Cast, where you'll get access to to bonus episodes

1485
01:36:33,760 --> 01:36:36,720
Speaker 1: every month, plus the entire back catalog of all the

1486
01:36:36,800 --> 01:36:41,160
Speaker 1: Matreon bonuses we've done. And it is five dollars a month. Wow,

1487
01:36:41,160 --> 01:36:43,680
Speaker 1: what a deal, What a deal with a steal and

1488
01:36:43,720 --> 01:36:47,559
Speaker 1: I'm not even joking, it's a good deal. We're only

1489
01:36:47,600 --> 01:36:51,280
Speaker 1: releasing the hits so and and this month because it

1490
01:36:51,520 --> 01:36:56,200
Speaker 1: is the scary month. Um. We did Final Destination three

1491
01:36:56,560 --> 01:36:59,840
Speaker 1: and we're doing Malignant, a James Wong movie and a

1492
01:37:00,040 --> 01:37:04,080
Speaker 1: James Wan movie. You're going to love it for my books. Truly,

1493
01:37:05,080 --> 01:37:07,360
Speaker 1: I feel like we can really cut loose on the matrion.

1494
01:37:08,080 --> 01:37:11,840
Speaker 1: It's exciting. Um. So that was the Witches. Thank you

1495
01:37:11,920 --> 01:37:16,559
Speaker 1: for staying for my corporate rage PostScript and we'll we'll

1496
01:37:16,600 --> 01:37:19,400
Speaker 1: see you next week. Bye bye bye