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Speaker 1: I'm Matt Miller and I'm Hannah Elliott, and this is

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Speaker 1: hot pursuit.

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Speaker 2: All right. We finally get to talk about the nine

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Speaker 2: to eleven hybrid that you drove, finally, and I'm excited

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Speaker 2: to talk about that because you know how much I

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Speaker 2: loved the hybrid Corvette that I drove. They're different animals,

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Speaker 2: but they're inevitably going to be compared, and I think

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Speaker 2: it's exciting. I also want to talk about a couple

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Speaker 2: of roadsters that I've driven back to back. One, the

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Speaker 2: Mercedes A AL sixty three was over two hundred thousand dollars,

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Speaker 2: but it is a two door four seed convertible with

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Speaker 2: a V eight. And now this week I'm driving another

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Speaker 2: two door four seed convertible with a V eight that

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Speaker 2: costs substantially less, the Mustang GT. It's only sixty grand,

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Speaker 2: and I feel like it's a lot more fun than

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Speaker 2: the MRC.

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Speaker 1: I am not surprised to hear you say that in

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Speaker 1: the least.

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Speaker 2: But we'll get to that tracks. We also are going

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Speaker 2: to cut the Rivian, not only the Rivian deal with Folkswagen,

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Speaker 2: but more interestingly, like a deep dive into the origin

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Speaker 2: story of Rivian and the CEO personally RG Scaringe, and

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Speaker 2: how he's run this business kind of in obscurity for

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Speaker 2: most of the time he's been doing it and now

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Speaker 2: like all of a sudden he was a massive success

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Speaker 2: and then now kind of a stock market failure. We

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Speaker 2: have Max Chafkin from business. We can talk to us

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Speaker 2: about that. So let's get straight to the nine to eleven.

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Speaker 2: Now you can tell us how bargo is lifted. How

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Speaker 2: was it? You know what?

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Speaker 1: It was awesome, And the hybrid was the least interesting

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Speaker 1: thing about it. It's kind of like a nothing burger.

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Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, it's slightly faster, it's slightly more powerful.

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Speaker 1: I would challenge you to get in that car blindfolded

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Speaker 1: and tell me that you know it's a hybrid. The GTS,

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Speaker 1: of course, is an existing line in the nine to

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Speaker 1: eleven portfolio. This new GTS it happens to have lost

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Speaker 1: a turbot charger and gained an electric and emotor that

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Speaker 1: they've attached to a single bigger turbo charger. That's got

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Speaker 1: them a little bit more horsepower. It's got them a

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Speaker 1: little quicker speed of zero to sixty. But honestly, this

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Speaker 1: is going to be like a nine to eleven that

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Speaker 1: you know and love already. It's it's firmly in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the lineup handles. Great. There are some differences

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Speaker 1: in the cabin though that I would say, those to

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Speaker 1: me were bigger deals than what's under the hood. Starting

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Speaker 1: with they've removed the faux key on the ignition, so

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Speaker 1: instead of on the left side turning the key, it's

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Speaker 1: now a push button start.

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Speaker 2: That's weak sauce.

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Speaker 1: Which two I mean. I think they had announced that

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Speaker 1: that was going to be the case, but I hadn't

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Speaker 1: realized that. And I get in the car and I

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Speaker 1: go to turn it on and there's nothing there, and

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Speaker 1: I'm hitting the dashboard and then I realized, oh, it's

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Speaker 1: a button. It was very it was shocking.

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Speaker 2: I would prefer, frankly, and then maybe it's just a

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Speaker 2: sign of my age. I would prefer to have a

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Speaker 2: real key that you put in the addition to the

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Speaker 2: left of the steering wheel. It would solve a lot

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Speaker 2: of the problems I have at parking garages. I always

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Speaker 2: forget to leave the key for the attendant. And also

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Speaker 2: it's like a cool way of mechanically interacting with your vehicle.

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Speaker 2: But I guess they don't really care about that.

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Speaker 1: More people care, for sure. And I did ask Frank

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Speaker 1: Moser about it from Portia, and he said, look, if

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Speaker 1: enough people hate it, maybe we can go back and

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Speaker 1: you know, take it out for another generation and put

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Speaker 1: in the faux key again. But I doubt it. The

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Speaker 1: other thing I think that really you tell me how

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Speaker 1: you feel about this. They've removed the back seat. So

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Speaker 1: now for nine to eleven Carrera and Carrera GTS models,

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Speaker 1: the back seat does not come standard. You can select

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Speaker 1: it as a no cost option. But if you do

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Speaker 1: not make that selection in the configurator, no back seat

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Speaker 1: for you. How do you feel about that?

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Speaker 2: I don't love it. I mean, I'll say this, it

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Speaker 2: looks cool to me if I see a car like

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Speaker 2: a nine to eleven that has no back seat. I

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Speaker 2: think it's cool when people option no back seat in

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Speaker 2: that vehicle. But I think the back seat should be standard.

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Speaker 2: It's part of the history of nine to eleven that

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Speaker 2: it has four seats, right. The back seats weren't really

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Speaker 2: usable anyway, except for in a pinch, and I had

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Speaker 2: a nine to eleven for a long time. There are

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Speaker 2: times when you just have to squeeze another person in

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Speaker 2: the car and it helps to have that. If you

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Speaker 2: don't have a back seat, it makes it really a

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Speaker 2: lot more illegal to drive somebody around in the back

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Speaker 2: in most jurisdictions, right, And also it's like a nice

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Speaker 2: place to rest things. They look good sah. I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, unless you're going for like the racier like

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Speaker 2: GT three look with the paf cage, I think I'd

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Speaker 2: rather have seats.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, This to me feels like a very brilliant

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Speaker 1: cost cutting move by Portie. And if there's anybody who

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Speaker 1: can cut car, it's a Schwabian because they kind of

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Speaker 1: they know that people will freak out if you have

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Speaker 1: to pay more for a back seat, so but they

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Speaker 1: also know that if that most people they may not

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Speaker 1: select it. If you have to actually push a button

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Speaker 1: and select it and go through the whole thing, maybe

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Speaker 1: people won't select it. So it's like they can save

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Speaker 1: some money on installing seats that nobody wants anyway, quote unquote,

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Speaker 1: but they save themselves the public uproar of this huge

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Speaker 1: announcement that now they're going to charge you for something

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Speaker 1: that you didn't used to have to pay for. So

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Speaker 1: it seems mary clever.

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Speaker 2: There's so many two plus twos that are doing it now. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, from the lowly Dodge Challenger they offer a

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Speaker 2: no cost option to get rid of the seats, and

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Speaker 2: a lot of those trim levels to the UH. I

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Speaker 2: noticed the new AMGGT either come standard with no back

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Speaker 2: seats or can be option with no back seats. Of course,

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Speaker 2: the new AMGGT now is a four seater like the

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Speaker 2: SL sixty three. But I guess those are cost cutting measures,

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Speaker 2: and I've noticed them coming at Portie for a long time.

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Speaker 2: They dropped the emergency brake, they dropped the key in

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Speaker 2: the ignition, and now they dropped the backseat. Now they're

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Speaker 2: getting rid of actual gauges. I mean, all of these wonderful,

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Speaker 2: full little luxury touches, they don't really give you anymore. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: those things bugged you about it? What about the gauges?

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Speaker 2: What do you think about the experience?

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Speaker 1: That's a really good back gauges. You know, I think

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Speaker 1: it's going to use that word again. I think it's

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Speaker 1: going to be a little bit polarizing because now the

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Speaker 1: cabin in the nine to eleven has no analog gauges.

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Speaker 1: There is a curved screen behind the steering wheel where

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Speaker 1: the five gauges used to be with the tech in

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Speaker 1: the center that is now replicated on a screen digitally,

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Speaker 1: and then there's a screen in the dashboard. So this

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Speaker 1: truly is the most you could definitely argue it's the

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Speaker 1: most modern version of the nine to eleven for sure.

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Speaker 1: It's like pure screens now. Obviously this goes back to

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Speaker 1: just what we were speaking about before with the whole

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Speaker 1: I'm not convinced screens are going to age amazingly well,

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Speaker 1: and I know that I'm not the only one, because

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Speaker 1: Bentley just announced that their Sharon successor, the Turbion, very

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Speaker 1: deliberately is mostly analog on the inside, and it's because

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Speaker 1: they think that this car will look better on concor Lons,

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Speaker 1: you know, fifty years from now with analog gauges rather

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Speaker 1: than computer screens. That I kind of agree.

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Speaker 2: I mean, look, this isn't another case of corporate decisions

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Speaker 2: that are good for the bottom line in quarterly earnings

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Speaker 2: but are bad longer term. You know that Oliver Blooma

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Speaker 2: also knows screens aren't gonna age. Well, you know that

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Speaker 2: Frank also knows that screens aren't going to age. Well.

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Speaker 2: Everyone knows that screens aren't gonna age well because they

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Speaker 2: never have. Look back at cars that have screens in

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Speaker 2: the last ten or twenty years, and they look horrible.

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Speaker 2: And Portia knows they're gonna look horrible in the future,

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Speaker 2: but they put them in to sell them now and

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Speaker 2: to make the bottom line the quarterly earnings look better.

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Speaker 2: And I just think they'll rue. Well, no, I don't

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Speaker 2: think they'll rue that decision. The buyers will. And but

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Speaker 2: it doesn't matter because as long as the stock does well,

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Speaker 2: I'm not complaining about capitalism.

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Speaker 1: But well, and you know what, the car drives amazing.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure it's phenomenal.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: The thing is that Porsia never had a problem with

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Speaker 2: responsiveness anyway. But in the Corvette, the edition of the

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Speaker 2: electric motor and on the Corvette is on the front axle,

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Speaker 2: really helps it instantly accelerate. Porsia already did that. But

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Speaker 2: do you not hear any of the electric motor at all?

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Speaker 2: Do you not hear any of the sort of fighter jet.

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Speaker 1: Were Honestly, I did not. Maybe when you get in

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Speaker 1: the car you will hear it. I truthfully did not

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Speaker 1: hear it. I don't know if I could have gotten

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Speaker 1: in and without seeing anything known that I was in

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Speaker 1: a hybrid. I didn't you know, maybe you'll get in

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Speaker 1: here something that I didn't hear, but no, it's it's

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Speaker 1: really imperceptible.

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Speaker 2: I have been.

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Speaker 1: And let's not forget this is a mild hybrid. It's

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Speaker 1: not a plug in. There's no electric only driving, So

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Speaker 1: you know, it really is a very very subtle change,

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Speaker 1: a subtle advance, if you will.

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Speaker 2: All right, So I just want to finally ask about

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Speaker 2: the biggest omission of all and hear your take on it.

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Speaker 2: Because the GTS was the trim line that you could

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Speaker 2: get with a stick shift, That was the true driver's car.

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Speaker 2: Someone who cares about driving a car really and doesn't

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Speaker 2: want to use flappy paddles went for the GTS so

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Speaker 2: that he didn't have to or she didn't have to

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Speaker 2: have the turbocharged engine and the automatic transmission. Now, Portia

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Speaker 2: is not offering any stick shifts in the twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: five model line, and definitely not in the GTS, not

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Speaker 2: even next year in the GTS. Right, it's not coming,

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Speaker 2: not in the GPS, not in the GTS. So how

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Speaker 2: do you think that does for this trim level which

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Speaker 2: you chose for the stick.

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Speaker 1: Well, times are changing now. The trim level is the

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Speaker 1: hybrid thing there. I asked them about that too, they,

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Speaker 1: of course, a just wait, you know, there are other

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Speaker 1: variants coming out, there are other things happening, just wait,

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Speaker 1: just wait. So I do. I do. I'm fully confident

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Speaker 1: that we'll have other opportunities to be in manual nine

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Speaker 1: to ninety two dot two vehicles, if you ask my opinion, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it'd be nice just to have the option of a manual,

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Speaker 1: just like we always say. But honestly, frankly, I have

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Speaker 1: at least I can say I don't need a manual.

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Speaker 1: And I'm assuming that probably most drivers who drive an

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Speaker 1: hour to work every day, if they're driving there nine

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Speaker 1: to eleven for that purpose, I'm sure that they're very

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Speaker 1: happy to have those flappy paddles.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess commuters. Maybe commuters. I just know that

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Speaker 2: I have usually more fun in a manual.

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Speaker 1: For sure. I do. Well. I love the st I

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Speaker 1: mean that was like my favorite car, but.

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Speaker 2: Of course you have to have one to be on

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Speaker 2: a list, and all right, So yeah, I think I

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Speaker 2: like the design the nine nine to two point two

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Speaker 2: a lot, so I think it looks better than the

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Speaker 2: nine nine to two point one, but I like it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so all right awesome. You should check out on Bloomberg

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Speaker 2: dot com Hannah's article on the new nine to eleven

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Speaker 2: GTS after she got to go to Marbia to drive it.

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Speaker 2: I want to quickly talk about these two roadsters because

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Speaker 2: I had, please, I think, pretty high hopes for the

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Speaker 2: Mercedes AMG SL sixty three sixty three, and in some

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Speaker 2: ways it delivers. I mean, it's an extremely powerful V

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Speaker 2: eight that sounds amazing. Obviously there's no stick available for

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Speaker 2: this either, because Mercedes has just abandoned that customer. But

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Speaker 2: it's like the same as the GT now. You know,

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Speaker 2: the AMGGT is just the hard top version and the

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Speaker 2: SL sixty three is the ragtop. I like a ragtop.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: They both have four seats unless you option the back

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Speaker 2: seat out. They both have all wheel drive now, which

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Speaker 2: they never had before, and I like all wheel drive.

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Speaker 2: I don't mind if it's heavy. It's a grand tour.

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Speaker 2: It's not supposed to be a sports car. But I

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Speaker 2: will say the price, at over two hundred thousand dollars,

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Speaker 2: I'd probably rather have a Porsche. And the responsiveness is

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Speaker 2: not there. There's like a for some reason, just a

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Speaker 2: ton of turbo lag. You put down the pedal and

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Speaker 2: you can start counting before the engine spurs, spools up

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Speaker 2: and goes and then everything is operated by the screen.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know why they do this. I guess

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Speaker 2: because they start designing the car five years ago and

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Speaker 2: then they come out with it last year. But like

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Speaker 2: even the putting the top up and down, you pretty

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Speaker 2: much have to use the screen. I figured out a

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Speaker 2: cheat if you double push a button, you can do it.

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Speaker 2: But it's it's not great in that sense, but you know,

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Speaker 2: for I mean, I'm not gonna be disapointed with two

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Speaker 2: hundred thosand dollars car. Right, it's luxury. I mean it's luxury.

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Speaker 2: I mean seat leather. Yeah, the design looks great.

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Speaker 1: I mean is the best, the most luxurious interiors of

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Speaker 1: you know, before you get into Rolls Royce range.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't for me comfortable, but I have a weird

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Speaker 2: maybe bird body type of the seats. I'm just not

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Speaker 2: getting a lot of leg room. And I was more

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Speaker 2: comfortable in the Corvette, which is a weird thing to say.

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Speaker 2: And also, by the way, don't ever test drive a

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Speaker 2: sports car or a GT car after you drove the

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Speaker 2: Corvette E Ray because that thing was more responsive, like

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Speaker 2: it was accelerating before my foot touched the pedal, and

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Speaker 2: this thing and anything else isn't compared to that. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: so I still really enjoyed driving it for a week.

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Speaker 2: But then last night I got into this Ford Mustang.

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Speaker 2: Not even the dark Horse. It was the GT the convertible,

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Speaker 2: not even the manual transmission. I don't know what the

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Speaker 2: PR is thinking when they give a journalist, you know,

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Speaker 2: the automatic. But it's cool that I got to compare

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Speaker 2: it back to back with the Mercedes because they're both automatic.

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Speaker 2: As I said, two door four seaters with V eights.

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Speaker 2: It was a blast. It's so much fun and it

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Speaker 2: only costs sixty thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: The sound is much more offensive in a good way,

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Speaker 2: like a high schooler would be super psyched to drive

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Speaker 2: this car. The top goes down like faster and easier,

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Speaker 2: less complicated.

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Speaker 1: It just sounds simple and easy.

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Speaker 2: Because it's meerwheel drive. I could break the back wheels

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Speaker 2: loose on every you know, highway entry and exit. It's

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Speaker 2: just like a hooligan's car. And I also take over

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Speaker 2: you with it. I take issue with people now who

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Speaker 2: say it's just a sports car. The Mustang, it's no

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Speaker 2: longer a muscle car. It really feels muscle like you

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Speaker 2: can feel the engines in the front. It's it's a

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Speaker 2: heavy vehicle. I think it's like a four thousand pound vehicle.

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Speaker 2: And it's like cheap and fast.

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Speaker 1: How is the sound system?

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Speaker 2: The sound system on both is okay? Now that one's great.

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Speaker 2: The Mercedes has the Burmester and people rave about it,

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Speaker 2: but it's not that great, frankly, and and on the Mustang,

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Speaker 2: it's the first time that I really felt like, yes,

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Speaker 2: I don't mean to listen to the radio because I

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Speaker 2: only want to listen to the motor. Like why this

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Speaker 2: morning I drove to work, it was raining, I still

294
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Speaker 2: put the top down and didn't listen to the radio

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Speaker 2: on my commute.

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Speaker 1: I think you just unlocked another level. I think you

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Speaker 1: just reached another It.

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Speaker 2: Could be I usually I hate it when people say that,

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Speaker 2: you know, because I like a good stereo, and I'm

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Speaker 2: sure if I live with the car and want a

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Speaker 2: good stereo, and to be honest, almost no factory stereo

302
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Speaker 2: is good, so I'm sure it's not that great. But

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Speaker 2: the vehicle is just a blast to drive. It makes

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Speaker 2: you feel like a little kid again, is the thing.

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Speaker 2: It makes me, fifty year old man Miller, feel like,

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Speaker 2: you know, an eighteen year old kid.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're smiling, and there is something to be said

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Speaker 1: for you can get a whole lot of car and

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Speaker 1: have it. Sounds like just as much fun with something

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Speaker 1: a lot cheaper and a lot simpler and just something

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Speaker 1: just easy. So why, I mean, why go through the

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Speaker 1: expense of getting the big expensive thing I can relate to.

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Speaker 2: That I don't know perfect sense, And frankly, now that

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Speaker 2: I've driven both, when I see somebody in a Mercedes

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Speaker 2: AMGSL sixty three, I'm gonna be kind of making a

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Speaker 2: character judgment.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: Oh boy, you could have had maybe more fun spending

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Speaker 2: sixty grand, but you felt it necessary to spend two

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Speaker 2: hundred and nine thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: The suspension is another thing that I mean. It's not

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Speaker 2: amazing on the Mustang GT either, but I thought it

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Speaker 2: was gonna be insane. On the Mercedes AMG SL sixty three,

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Speaker 2: it was bouncy.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: I go to work at five in the morning, so

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Speaker 2: I fly down the Bronx River Parkway and then even

329
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Speaker 2: faster down the west Side Highway and okay the roads.

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Speaker 1: Now, were you in the right were you in sport mode?

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Speaker 1: Sport plus?

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Speaker 2: I mean our sport Plus than track. I was only

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Speaker 2: in Sport Plus and track to make sure Mercedes. Yeah,

334
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:54,960
Speaker 2: and you know, I don't stay in track because that

335
00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,560
Speaker 2: keeps the gears really low when you don't need it.

336
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Speaker 2: So Sport plus is I find it good. But the

337
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:05,320
Speaker 2: suspension was just bouncy, bouncy, bouncy in that car, and

338
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Speaker 2: I was surprised because I thought it was gonna be

339
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Speaker 2: much better in the Mustang. I didn't have such high expectations,

340
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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: You know the counterpoint to that is if you were

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Speaker 1: just coming out of a Corvette, that is a pretty

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Speaker 1: stiff suspension and a pretty stiff car, so probably to

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Speaker 1: get into anything would feel rather That's true.

345
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Speaker 2: I thought about that as well. But the Corvette suspension

346
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,600
Speaker 2: is so good that you don't it's it's not bouncy

347
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Speaker 2: and it's not too jarring, you know, it's not. I

348
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Speaker 2: I wasn't breaking teeth in it, so it's not like

349
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,560
Speaker 2: my you know, my neighbor has this BMWM for gts

350
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,639
Speaker 2: that thing like if you even think about hitting a

351
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:50,879
Speaker 2: speed bump. It hurts already. You feel like you might

352
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,959
Speaker 2: have broken something in the car, or like a nine

353
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Speaker 2: to eleven GT three. Right, you don't want to You

354
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,320
Speaker 2: don't want to be in that car on a regular

355
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Speaker 2: basis if you value your spine. It was perfect.

356
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:12,439
Speaker 1: No, I need to change the subjects a little bit

357
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,560
Speaker 1: and ask you a very pressing question. Yes, this has

358
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,400
Speaker 1: to do with spying used cars, or you know, more

359
00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:23,159
Speaker 1: euphemistically vintage cars. I found myself out at Beverly Hills

360
00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,720
Speaker 1: Car Club, which is neither in Beverly Hills nor car club.

361
00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:28,200
Speaker 1: It's out in.

362
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:31,000
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, oh my god.

363
00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,840
Speaker 2: I've always no, I've always thought that's like the Manhattan

364
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,520
Speaker 2: Classic Car Club. I've always thought that people gather that

365
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,880
Speaker 2: love cars and test different vehicles.

366
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,680
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no, these these cars are very much

367
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:49,840
Speaker 1: caveat and tour vehicles. You you have to assume all

368
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,040
Speaker 1: risk when you go there. Just fun.

369
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,280
Speaker 2: Twenty years I've been looking at cars from and I thought, Wow,

370
00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,280
Speaker 2: they have such a good collection. The members must really

371
00:18:58,320 --> 00:18:59,080
Speaker 2: appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, this question goes right in line with what

373
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,400
Speaker 1: I'm trying to say, is I did see a very

374
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:12,959
Speaker 1: cool Rolls Royce variant there and priced to sell. The

375
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,280
Speaker 1: one thing is the trunk doesn't open. So how do

376
00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:22,399
Speaker 1: you feel about purchasing a vehicle priced accordingly? I should say,

377
00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,000
Speaker 1: but the trunk doesn't open? And this brings up too things.

378
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,720
Speaker 1: What's in the trunk? Number one and number two? Are

379
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,800
Speaker 1: you gonna want some storage space in that trunk at

380
00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:33,200
Speaker 1: some point?

381
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,199
Speaker 2: But I mean, don't you think you would eventually be

382
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,280
Speaker 2: able to open the trunk? Can you get into a

383
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,200
Speaker 2: roll trunk through the back seats or no?

384
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,040
Speaker 1: I don't think so. No, not this one. I mean yes,

385
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,760
Speaker 1: once once purchased, I could, you know, take it down

386
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:49,960
Speaker 1: to Charlie and see if you can crack it open.

387
00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,040
Speaker 2: I mean, I wouldn't care if it's priced accordingly. The

388
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,359
Speaker 2: trunk opening is the least of my worries in buying

389
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,440
Speaker 2: a car like that. I would be much more concerned

390
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,160
Speaker 2: about the maintenance cost. What are you gonna have to repair?

391
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:02,800
Speaker 2: How much is it going to cost you to run

392
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,560
Speaker 2: every year? The trunk I don't even care. Like, you

393
00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,480
Speaker 2: have a big backseat and you don't have any body

394
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:12,160
Speaker 2: necessarily a put back there except for the dogs, So yeah,

395
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:13,120
Speaker 2: I think you.

396
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,240
Speaker 1: Know, I kind of like looking in the trunk though,

397
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,080
Speaker 1: and pulling up the upholstery to look, you know, to

398
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,040
Speaker 1: see what's been spray painted.

399
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,000
Speaker 2: Over and what has Oh, you're a good car.

400
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:26,320
Speaker 1: Bin trusted or you know what has been quote unquote fixed.

401
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:28,640
Speaker 1: You know, it is a really good indicator if there's

402
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,840
Speaker 1: been any incidents in the car? Is there bondo? You

403
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:34,639
Speaker 1: know that sort of thing. So there's a little bit

404
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:38,480
Speaker 1: of a risk, right, But you're saying, never mind.

405
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,760
Speaker 2: That, I wouldn't bother me. I would probably tell the

406
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,280
Speaker 2: good people that run the Beverly Hills Car Club, I

407
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,920
Speaker 2: would like to buy this car. Can you is there

408
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:49,520
Speaker 2: any way for you to figure out how to open

409
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:49,840
Speaker 2: the trunk?

410
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:49,960
Speaker 1: Like?

411
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:51,920
Speaker 2: Can we get a crow bar and pry this baby open?

412
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:53,959
Speaker 1: Because let's figure it out together.

413
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:59,240
Speaker 2: I saw another suitcase of money or drugs. Stephen, did

414
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,640
Speaker 2: you read the Key Bard's autobiography.

415
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:04,719
Speaker 1: Life, My Life Life?

416
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,480
Speaker 2: Yes, it's an amazing story. And he gets pulled over

417
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:09,960
Speaker 2: in a car that's packed with cocaine and the cops

418
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:10,879
Speaker 2: don't even get to it.

419
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,239
Speaker 1: Bentley, what didn't he drive? Did? He's say in that

420
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 1: book A Bentley saved his life multiple times because he

421
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:17,560
Speaker 1: crashed it.

422
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:19,880
Speaker 2: He would crash him and he did. But the car

423
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,240
Speaker 2: he was driving across the US when he got pulled over,

424
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,960
Speaker 2: like in the middle of the country with a drug

425
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,200
Speaker 2: filled vehicle was not a Bentley, and he actually, I

426
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:30,719
Speaker 2: think got out of it because the judge was a

427
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 2: Stones fan. But I highly recommend that book, especially for

428
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,679
Speaker 2: car people, because there's a lot about hicles. The Beverly

429
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 2: Hills Car Club also had a Bentley Continental R, which

430
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 2: you know I lost after those I think it was

431
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety three. Those at the time was I think

432
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:50,480
Speaker 2: the most expensive car you could buy, and it looked

433
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,000
Speaker 2: beautiful to me, only twenty two grand, but that's probably

434
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 2: gonna because it's going to cost you like fifty a

435
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 2: year to run. I noticed in that one also, there

436
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 2: were actually holes cut in the trunk. Did you see that?

437
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,120
Speaker 1: No? I didn't. I didn't look through all the photos. No, yeah, no.

438
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,120
Speaker 1: And I didn't open the trunk on that one either.

439
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 1: I did see that car, of course, but no. So

440
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:11,680
Speaker 1: that's interesting.

441
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,239
Speaker 2: All right, Well, I learned a lot today. Let's learn

442
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 2: a little bit more about Rivian. We have Bloomberg Business

443
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,919
Speaker 2: Week reporter Max Chafkin. He's going to join us talk

444
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 2: about his story with Ed Ludlow on Rivian.

445
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 1: Let's listen in Max, it's so good to have you here.

446
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:33,159
Speaker 1: You wrote a really fabulous story about Rivian, and really

447
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,160
Speaker 1: I thought put into great relief how Rivian has emerged

448
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:41,200
Speaker 1: as kind of the antithesis to Tesla, and maybe even

449
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,920
Speaker 1: r J is the antithesis to Elon and I think too.

450
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 1: We've talked about how there's a product story and there's

451
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 1: a business story. So I'd love to just hear from

452
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,919
Speaker 1: you how you see that play out for Rivian.

453
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 3: Look coming from the outside, and I am not. I'm

454
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 3: not like even a car person, although I do own

455
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,880
Speaker 3: two cars. But you know, from my point of view,

456
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 3: coming from the outside of this story, you have kind

457
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 3: of a product story and a stock story, and that's true.

458
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 3: I actually had Tesla as well. But you know, the product,

459
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 3: this luxury pickup truck and very large suv, you know,

460
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 3: has built a sizeable following. I think you know that

461
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 3: you can debate, like how good is it on its

462
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 3: own terms? Is it really a good value? But like

463
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 3: they're selling actually like a substantial quantity of these things

464
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 3: selling more than you know, comparative cars. You know, it's

465
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 3: like it's like a solid business in a lot of ways.

466
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 3: It has fans. There's this interesting culture of fandom where

467
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 3: you have lots of like kind of disaffected Tesla owners,

468
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 3: people who own a Tesla but are really excited about

469
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 3: a Rivian because because it doesn't necessarily come with all

470
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,479
Speaker 3: the baggage of Elon Musk or whatever. And then you

471
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 3: have a stock story and a business story that has

472
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 3: just been essentially disastrous for years. Right this this is

473
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 3: a company went public twenty twenty one, I think in

474
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 3: retrospect kind of the very height of the kind of

475
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 3: pandemic fueled bubble in evs. For like a hot second

476
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 3: there in like November twenty twenty one, it was the

477
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 3: most valuable or second most valuable car company in the

478
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 3: United States, and it just has gone like pretty much

479
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 3: straight down until very recently striking this deal with Volkswagen.

480
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 3: But even even with the deal that has struggle with Volkswagen,

481
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 3: the stocks still down like ninety percent. It's been a disaster,

482
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 3: which is kind of interesting because you know, on one hand,

483
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 3: you would think that like Elon Musk going out there

484
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 3: and kind of making a fool of himself on social

485
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 3: media and doing all sorts of things that have undermined

486
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,439
Speaker 3: Tesla that that would create a real opportunity for Rivian,

487
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 3: and it has, although I don't know that Rivian has

488
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,120
Speaker 3: fully managed to take advantage of that opportunity just yet.

489
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 2: Well, they can't, like because they can't a they can't

490
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,479
Speaker 2: produce as many cars. Let's put some numbers on it, right,

491
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 2: Tesla is gonna sell roughly two million cars this year, right,

492
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 2: Rivian is gonna sell what like fifty.

493
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 3: Thousand something like that. Yeah, and now I think it's

494
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 3: slightly or of what they would say is, oh, it's

495
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 3: it's actually not quite as bad as it sounds because

496
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 3: we had to shut down the factory for retooling. Of course,

497
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 3: Tesla has lots of excuses that they offer like that,

498
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 3: but yeah, it's essentially like, but they'll sell maybe fifty

499
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 3: sixty tops totally.

500
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 2: Last year they sold fifty sixty tops yep. And Tesla's

501
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 2: gonna sell two million, give or take. Last year they

502
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 2: sold two million give take By the way, uh, Tesla's

503
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 2: worth nine hundred billion dollars. Rivian at its height was

504
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 2: worth one hundred and fifty billion dollars and they've been

505
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 2: literally decimated. Like the definition of that, They're worth one

506
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 2: tenth of what they had been.

507
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 1: So I mean, so why the space between they do

508
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: have a fan base and the stock. Why is there

509
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 1: such a big divide?

510
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 2: I have to think part of it, max is that

511
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 2: they just can't make enough. Like if they could make more,

512
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 2: they could sell more. So production is a huge problem

513
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 2: for well, Okay, so.

514
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 3: I think there are I think really and this is true,

515
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 3: I mean, doing the story and you know, I also

516
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 3: we post a podcast elon Ink which we talk about

517
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 3: this every every week. It's a sister podcast, if you will,

518
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 3: of Hot Pursuit. Sorry to get the plug in, I like,

519
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 3: but but anyway, we talk about this all the time,

520
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,959
Speaker 3: and I think really like the ev market, like everyone

521
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 3: kind of agrees, policymakers, governments probably like some there's some

522
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 3: auto automotive enthusiasts who would beg to differ, but like,

523
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 3: essentially this is the future, Like all the cars are

524
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 3: going to go this way, you know, by twenty thirty

525
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 3: or whatever in certain states and local localities, like you're

526
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 3: not gonna be able to sell a conventional car.

527
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 2: And we hope that's not true and that those things change. Yeah, no, clear.

528
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 3: My point is though that's the goal. A lot of

529
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 3: people kind of agree on that goal. But like getting

530
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 3: there we are. There's a golf and the golf is

531
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 3: essentially affordability, and like I think, what what happened with Rivian? Yes,

532
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 3: the production issues are problem and that's part of the

533
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,199
Speaker 3: reason they're losing so much money. Is that they have

534
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 3: this like giant factory that's an old Mitsubishi factory in

535
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 3: central Illinois, and and like it's it has a capacity

536
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 3: of one hundred and fifty thousand vehicles. They're making fifty sixty.

537
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 3: Like you said, that's creating losses. But the real problem

538
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 3: is they're selling a seventy minimum seventy thousand dollars you know,

539
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 3: three row suv and there is just like a limited

540
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 3: audience in a world with high interest rates and where

541
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 3: there's you know a bit of a backlash against evs,

542
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 3: where you know, I think about this my own life,

543
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 3: right because like I drove, you know, I drove the

544
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 3: truck and I think it's awesome. I think it's I

545
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 3: think it's cool. It made me want to maybe maybe

546
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 3: want to drive it. Maybe you know, it can accelerate

547
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 3: really fast, Like I again, like.

548
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 2: I'm not it's luxurious.

549
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it reminded me, No, it's not. This

550
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 3: is gonna Okay, this is gonna. I'm gonna reveal you

551
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 3: didn't want to talk about the product. Okay, I'm gonna.

552
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 3: I'm gonna talk.

553
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 1: About the product. I just didn't want to start with that. Okay.

554
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 3: Well, I have a point here, which is essentially though

555
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 3: when I actually started thinking about it, you know, you're

556
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 3: talking about, like I said, minimum seventy thousand, so probably

557
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 3: more like eighty whatever, eighty five. There's gonna be some

558
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 3: tax credits, but like this is a big chunk of change,

559
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 3: and you could get a really nice, brand new Lexus

560
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 3: for like twenty thousand dollars less than that, and with

561
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 3: you know that also has three rows, and that is

562
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 3: a Toyota product. It's gonna be easy for you know.

563
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 3: And it's just like even if you're in.

564
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 2: There with a gas engine, to be clear, yeah, with

565
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 2: a gas engine.

566
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

567
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 3: But but I mean the point is just that like,

568
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 3: unless you are the kind of like early adopter, you're

569
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 3: going for this no matter what.

570
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: They just haven't been affordable enough.

571
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. I would say, just because something is priced like

572
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 1: a luxury product doesn't mean that it actually is a

573
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:49,719
Speaker 1: luxury product. And just because it has a lot of

574
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 1: tech doesn't mean it's a luxury product.

575
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, what it is a luxury product. And when you

576
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 2: think of a luxury product, I.

577
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: Would say when when materials are what they seem to be.

578
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 1: For instance, leather is real, leather, chrome is real chrome,

579
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: wood is real wood. When they're handmade in small batches

580
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: or smallish batches, and when they're well made, when the

581
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: fit and finish is very well made, when there are

582
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: no body panels that don't align, when you know you

583
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: can't pull the covering on the B and C pillars

584
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: literally down, when something is well made for starters.

585
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 2: I like that. I like that definition. Put Max, I'm

586
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 2: with you. I think this is a luxury vehicle just

587
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 2: because the design is so special, it's so powerful. There's

588
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 2: an exclusivity because EI there difficult to afford for most people,

589
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 2: and b you just can't get them. There's a long

590
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 2: waiting list and features they have features I know, I'm

591
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 2: I'm not so this is anyway. I think it's cool.

592
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 2: May maybe that's a better way.

593
00:29:55,160 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: Doesn't mean luxury exists outside of the luxury world for sure,

594
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: And just because they can't make enough doesn't make them exclusive.

595
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: It just means Rivian can't make enough.

596
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 3: But the way I think of it, right, is that

597
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 3: for a long time, the narrative from Elon Musk, even

598
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 3: like Bob Lutz, you know, former CEO of GM, who

599
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 3: was big proponent of EV's, Like the idea was evs

600
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 3: are are going to be a complete change from the

601
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 3: automotive status quote because they are fundamentally software products. They're

602
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 3: not gonna be like cars. You're gonna you're only gonna

603
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 3: care about the software that's in it. And and like

604
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 3: I remember like working at it, working at magazines and

605
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 3: being involved in articles where were like the car is

606
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 3: the new iPhone and you see that.

607
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 1: Well, Elon said that told me that in person, you know,

608
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: when he still was driving around with early prototypes, right,

609
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: and I thought he was I didn't really hit it.

610
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 3: Well, you can understand why that's a good story for investors,

611
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 3: because iPhones are you know that the software business is

612
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 3: like way better than the car business. Software valuations are

613
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 3: way better than automoble evaluation. So if that turns out

614
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,479
Speaker 3: to be true, right, Tesla is worth you know, gazillion dollars.

615
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 3: Like Kathy Wood, you know, you're talking like Kathy would

616
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 3: potentially like thirty trillion dollars. I think that's that's the latest,

617
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 3: you know, the latest, kind of like pie in the

618
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 3: Sky thing.

619
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 2: Has she said thirty trillion?

620
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah. Elon is always like when I think about

621
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 3: what the you know, best valuation is, it's the it's

622
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 3: the Kathy Wood thing. I mean, we should check the numbers,

623
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 3: but pretty sure thirty trillion. But anyway, Rivian's bet is

624
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 3: is different. Rivian's bet is that the car industry of

625
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 3: the future is gonna look a lot like car industry

626
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 3: of the past. They're gonna be different, different demographics, different styles.

627
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 3: There's gonna be a Jeep equivalent. There's gonna be the

628
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 3: Jeep of EV's or the Subaru of EV's, And to

629
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 3: my mind, like that's what they're trying to build. When

630
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 3: you look at like what the branding is it, it

631
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 3: looks like the way that Jeep or super U are

632
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 3: marketing products. And there's even you know, I got I

633
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 3: got kind of like into the sort of Rivian fan

634
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 3: community because it's so funny. It's like a funny in

635
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 3: version of the Tesla fan community. Imagine like the typical

636
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 3: cyber truck driver. It's like total like Alpha bro super

637
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 3: into technology, super into self driving, you know, just and

638
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 3: like the Ribban people are like a little bit boring.

639
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 3: They're like, yeah, they got their fleece.

640
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 2: Maybe, but anyway, I think like both camps are wearing Patagonia.

641
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 2: They are just different because one is a programmer and

642
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 2: the other one is like a regional banker.

643
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 3: But like the thing Rivian, so you know, like the

644
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 3: jeep wave, right, there's a Rivian equivalent. They wave at

645
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,959
Speaker 3: each other and they can't even help themselves. It's just

646
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 3: like it's just.

647
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 2: Like the thing.

648
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 3: And and I think like that is pretty astute, honestly

649
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 3: of Rivian. And it actually shows like if Elon Musk's

650
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 3: bet on the future of the automotive industry is correct,

651
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 3: then great, it's gonna be then like he's totally gonna

652
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 3: pay off this valuation. But I think it's a high

653
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 3: risk bet and more likely it's it's the Rivian thesis

654
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 3: is gonna be the one that plays out and.

655
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 2: If that has survive, Yeah, the one problem.

656
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 3: With that is if that happens, like Tesla's worthway less,

657
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 3: Like the the the the ceiling is a little bit lower,

658
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 3: and that makes it that makes it harder for Rivian.

659
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 3: They're trying to compete in you know, in a business

660
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 3: that is cutthroat where there's lots of competition, where where

661
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 3: it's not like it's not just Tesla and Rivian. There

662
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 3: are lots of other uh, really solid evs either on

663
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 3: the market or about to hit the market. So that's

664
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 3: a challenge. Although I think.

665
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 2: In terms of non incumbents, there isn't really another competitor

666
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 2: that's made a substantial amount of vehicles.

667
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 3: No, no, there, And and when you look at the

668
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 3: thing is they get lumped in with like Lucid and Fisker,

669
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 3: like canoe companies that are either like like in like

670
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 3: literally te Fisker's bankrupt. Lucid is around, but it's like

671
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 3: largely around thanks to the you know largest the Saudi.

672
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 2: They both they both well Rivian had it, Saudi large

673
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 2: s too.

674
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 3: So okay, but let me talk about Yeah, we should

675
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 3: talk about let's get let's.

676
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 2: Get the origin story. I think that's a cool part

677
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 2: of reporting.

678
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 3: Thing about this is like Rivian, it is an this

679
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 3: is an unlikely story, and I mean it's it's easy

680
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 3: to like see this, you know, he sort of looks

681
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,839
Speaker 3: like a typical kind of programmer type or something. He's like,

682
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 3: you know, sort of like an attractive white man of

683
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 3: about forty years old who went to MI T. This

684
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 3: is an unlikely story, uh r. J. Scurriinge basically was

685
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 3: like stringing it together for many years, pivoting between.

686
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: Various mainstream motors.

687
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was mainstream motors, Mastream motors. By the way,

688
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 3: his his father is an engineer and an entrepreneur, runs

689
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 3: a company that's like mainstream engineering or something. It's a

690
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 3: defense contractor. So you know, his his main his original

691
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 3: investor was his father, their Saudai investor. It's it's not

692
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,399
Speaker 3: quite as glamorous as the public investment fund.

693
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:49,439
Speaker 2: It is true.

694
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 3: It is a company best known for operating Toyota dealerships

695
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 3: in Saudi Arabia, which looks like, I mean, I've never

696
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:57,959
Speaker 3: been in Saudi Arabia, but I'm in the Middle East.

697
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 3: And if you have that Toyota franchise, yes, that is

698
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 3: a valuable that is a valuable thing. But you know,

699
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 3: it's like it was like an MIT connection. It wasn't

700
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 3: you know. This is a company that really strung it together,

701
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 3: just barely. And I mean the way it's it's pretty funny.

702
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 3: I mean they part of the reason they had this

703
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 3: really successful launch in twenty eighteen. I think part of

704
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 3: it was the design, like you brought it up. It's

705
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 3: it's I think it's polarizing, Like I don't totally love it.

706
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 3: In fact, a lot of people who like Rivian are

707
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 3: not like exactly crazy about the front end, but it's memorable.

708
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: Polarizing is good really for car design. Yeah, at least

709
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 1: you have at least folks reacting to.

710
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 2: Talk about it.

711
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: Totlarizing is better than yeah.

712
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 3: And but anyway, Rihanna came to the launch. Why did

713
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 3: Rihanna come to the most Well, she was dating the

714
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 3: son of the Saudi car dealer. They've broken up, by

715
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 3: the way.

716
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 2: Uh but uh but you know, like that she did

717
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 2: her part.

718
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 3: And and like, okay, Rivian gets this investment from Jeff Bezos. Well,

719
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 3: we don't know exactly the chain of events that led

720
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 3: to that investment, but I can tell you that Rivin

721
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 3: hired a production company. Production company had some connections to Jeff.

722
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 3: The production company hired Lauren Sanchez, Bezos's uh, you know, girlfriend,

723
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 3: to do some aerial photography and by.

724
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 2: Dude, jack of all trades, Lauren Sanchez. I thought was

725
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 2: like a journalist and a television reporter. Turns out she

726
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 2: does aerial photography.

727
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 3: That that's that was the business this I believe. Now

728
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 3: again I'm speaking out of at attorney here, but I

729
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 3: believe that's how she and she and Jeff Bezos is

730
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 3: the helicopter pilot. Yeah, helicopter pil is awesome. She was

731
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 3: doing I think doing the same thing for Blue Origin.

732
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 3: But but in any case, you know, Bezos finds out

733
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 3: about this and and really becomes you know, the key back.

734
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 3: I mean, that is a thing that sends Rivyan essentially

735
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 3: stratospheric because not only did Bezos put a huge amount

736
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 3: of money in the company, but made this big order

737
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 3: one hundred thousand delivery vans. They haven't delivered all of

738
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 3: those yet, by the way, but like becomes both a

739
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 3: sort of uh, you know, Keystone customer and and the

740
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 3: beginning investor. And company goes public and as I said,

741
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 3: you know, just manages to raise a ton of money.

742
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 3: But kind of like the same factors that were sort

743
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 3: of propelling Rivian to be able to tell this investor

744
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,359
Speaker 3: story also worked against it. So part of the reason

745
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 3: Rivian did well because cars were really expensive, Like a

746
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 3: Toyota camera is like selling for more than forty thousand dollars.

747
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 3: So and interest rates are zero, So like who cares?

748
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 3: Like yolo, Like why buy seventy thousand dollars pickup truck?

749
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 2: Why not?

750
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,800
Speaker 3: Now? Of course, the reason those cars were so expensive

751
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 3: is that semiconductors are really hard to come by. R

752
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 3: J had overpaid for almost everything. He had overdesigned these trucks,

753
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 3: you know, love or hate them, Like when you look

754
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 3: at people did tear downs and like it was constructed

755
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 3: in a very expensive way. There are all these like

756
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 3: little add ons that I think helped contribute to the

757
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,240
Speaker 3: sort of memorability or whatever of this of the truck,

758
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 3: but but ultimately made it very expensive to manufacture. And

759
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 3: they priced it, you know, basically before they realized like

760
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 3: how much it was gonna cost. So they were just

761
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 3: like selling these things, losing tons of money, and then

762
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 3: unable because of the semiconductor short to really get ramped

763
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 3: up as quickly as they wanted. And so you have

764
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 3: a company that is essentially burning through like five billion

765
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 3: dollars a year, which is a lot. I mean I

766
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:11,760
Speaker 3: haven't gone back and looked like how much did Tesla

767
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 3: burn when they were making the Model S. But it's

768
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 3: kind of like the burn you would expect for like

769
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 3: a mass market vehicle, not a kind of niche vehicle.

770
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 2: Right, Ford lost less on their EV business.

771
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 3: So yeah, so they had some I think some real

772
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 3: like undeniable success, especially when you look at like how

773
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 3: hard it's been for like every other one of these

774
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 3: EV startups to build any kind of following. Like Fisker

775
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 3: had a lot of legs up. While he's like a

776
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 3: famous designer, he's been in the industry for a very

777
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 3: long time, like really struggling, like all these all these

778
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 3: startups up starts, like really struggling to get any kind

779
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,280
Speaker 3: of traction. Rivian gets traction, but at just a crazy

780
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,439
Speaker 3: high price. Like one thing you can say about rj

781
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 3: and Rivian like this is a spendee company. It is

782
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 3: not like Elon Musk is really frugal, and and you

783
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 3: know it comes out in all sorts of ways that

784
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 3: are destructive and problematic. Rivian Rjie I think believed that

785
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 3: you know this, the company needs to sort of overperform.

786
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 3: It needs to be better than you expect, it needs

787
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,760
Speaker 3: to be nicer than you expect. When you these Rivian

788
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 3: stores are really expensive and nice, and it's it's very

789
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 3: different from a lot of things Tesla did. And you know,

790
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 3: as a result, like behind the scenes, starting last year,

791
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 3: there's this like kind of frantic attempt to either uh,

792
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 3: raise more money or cut costs or or all of

793
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 3: those things, Like they looked at the federal government. And

794
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 3: then we wind up finally, you know, with this Volkswagen deal,

795
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 3: which really is a lifeline, and I think.

796
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: That saved them completely. I mean, can we let's talk

797
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: about how massive.

798
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 2: That Yeah, did it save them completely or is it

799
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 2: a lifeline that's going to last a year? I mean

800
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 2: they still have to.

801
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 1: Build that really a factory move against Tesla more than

802
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 1: appreciating what Rivian is doing or could do, Is that

803
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 1: actually a maneuver to block Tesla? Well?

804
00:39:58,400 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 2: I think no.

805
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 3: I mean I think Rivian, despite having the kind of

806
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 3: crazy burn rate and despite you know, as as r

807
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 3: J said, you know, looking out in the future and

808
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,879
Speaker 3: seeing at some point, you know, we're going to run

809
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 3: out of money, they have something valuable here like that,

810
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 3: and I think and so.

811
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 2: They have a lot of liabilities. They have to build

812
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,720
Speaker 2: another factory for five billion dollars, right, well that happened

813
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 2: to higher six thousand people, like they have more spending

814
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 2: to do than that Volkswagen lifeline will amount to.

815
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we reported, you know, we haven't even talked

816
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 3: about the UAW, but of course the uaw's out there.

817
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 3: Rivian looks like a pretty successful EV company, especially compared

818
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 3: to you know, Fisker, and even like some of the

819
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 3: big automakers, UAW badly wants to unionize those plants. This

820
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 3: the plan in normal Illinois not unionized, and so part

821
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,720
Speaker 3: of what kind of set off this chain of events

822
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 3: that led to VW. As we report in the story,

823
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 3: Rivian had agreed during the good old days to build

824
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 3: this massive factory in Georgia five billion dollars. Said they

825
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 3: had huge commitments of sort of jobs they had to

826
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 3: create to pay for the infrastructure that Georgia was going

827
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 3: to provide. As these deals often do you know, the

828
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 3: local government, state government kicks in money, but the private

829
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 3: employer has to do something. And RJ and Rivian essentially

830
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 3: tried to apply for a loan from the Department of

831
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 3: Energy as part of the Inflation Reduction Act. You know,

832
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 3: Biden administration is as we know, like super excited about

833
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:25,720
Speaker 3: promoting EVS and but Biden administration also very pro union

834
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 3: and that's kind of where the hiccup happened. And that

835
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 3: was part of the decision for RJ essentially to put

836
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 3: a pause on Georgia and try to do this new

837
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 3: model in Illinois. He got another big tax incenter in

838
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 3: Illinois eight hundred or so million, but that was leaving

839
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 3: this kind of like bomb over the company where at

840
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 3: some point they're going to run out of money. They

841
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 3: have these commitments. So that's where kind of Volkswagen comes in.

842
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 3: And you know, Ed Ludlow, my co writer and I

843
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 3: we talked to RJ about this, and essentially he's talking

844
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 3: to everybody, right He's he's trying to you know whatever

845
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:04,760
Speaker 3: potential partners money, whatever, and has this conversation with Volkswagen

846
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 3: with the with the new CEO, Oliver Bloom and initially thinks, okay,

847
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 3: like maybe we're gonna like sell them some technology or something.

848
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 3: But over the course of you know, some amount of time,

849
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 3: it becomes clear that Volkswagen is interested in something deeper,

850
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,320
Speaker 3: a real like partnership essentially where Volkswagen is going to

851
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:30,280
Speaker 3: take Rivian's software and hardware and put it into its vehicles.

852
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 3: And that's interesting because you know, Volkswagen under the previous

853
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 3: CEO made this huge bet on EV's and it's kind

854
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 3: of it has not worked. I think it's it's the

855
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:40,359
Speaker 3: I forget what it's called.

856
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:40,839
Speaker 2: ID four.

857
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 3: The owners of this car are just, uh, you know,

858
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 3: really complaining a lot about about the software. You know,

859
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 3: like it's need to reboot, it doesn't work, you know

860
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 3: EVS as we've talked about our software and and and

861
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 3: that's despite the fact that they had spent you know,

862
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,320
Speaker 3: a really large amount of money developing their own software

863
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 3: trying to make this work.

864
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,399
Speaker 2: They spent thirty billion dollars just to start the software unit.

865
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 2: They earmarked one hundred and eight billion euros between like

866
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:11,280
Speaker 2: now and twenty twenty eight on EVS.

867
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 3: So and when I talk about in terms of this

868
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 3: Rivian deal, I'm not talking about like infotainment software. I'm

869
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 3: talking about the software architecture and the computers on inside

870
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 3: of the car. So you know, the thing that tells

871
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 3: the doors or the seat or the steering or whatever.

872
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 3: Right cars are are many of these little computers. And

873
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 3: Rivian had spent a lot of time and money essentially

874
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 3: aping Tesla Tesla has their own system. Rivian built its

875
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 3: own system, and I assume, you know, great expense. And

876
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 3: the idea here is that they're going to license the

877
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 3: computers and the software to Volkswagen. That's gonna give them

878
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 3: up to five billion dollars. Now, again, this is a

879
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 3: partnership between a kind of shaky startup and a very

880
00:43:56,120 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 3: old German most German. Yeah, not necessarily like it's gonna

881
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 3: all work out, but assuming it does, two companies that

882
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 3: like to spend like drunk, you know, it'll give Rivian,

883
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 3: you know, a substantial amount of money, five billion dollars,

884
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 3: which is enough money to at least get that Georgia

885
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 3: plan open UH and get and they've said get R two,

886
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 3: the next car into production. I think the hope would

887
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 3: be to then start getting ready for our three, which

888
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 3: is the even cheaper version. And for Volkswagen it allows

889
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 3: them to just like take this stuff and put it

890
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 3: into their future models. The great thing for Rivian is

891
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 3: Volkswagen is going to be a lot better at sourcing

892
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 3: UH semiconductor parts than Rivian, and they're gonna be buying

893
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 3: essentially from the same pool because it's gonna be a

894
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 3: joint venture. So so suddenly this gives like Rivian a

895
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 3: lot more leverage in terms of buying these very expensive,

896
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,919
Speaker 3: very hard to get parts, and that could also help them,

897
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 3: you know, trim losses going forward. That what they want

898
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 3: to do is get to profitability by the end of

899
00:44:57,880 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 3: the year.

900
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 1: What do you make of you know, former VW and

901
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 1: Porsche employees going to Rivian. I know we spoke about

902
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,720
Speaker 1: this briefly. For instance, Kel Gruner, the head of Porsche

903
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 1: North America, shortly after his departure from Porsche. Now we

904
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,879
Speaker 1: see him at Rivian. How do you assess that type

905
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 1: of move.

906
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 3: I don't know, to be honest, my assumption is kind

907
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 3: of like small world to a type of situation, or

908
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 3: maybe they're you know, like I don't know how many

909
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 3: potential homes there are for this kind of person. But

910
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 3: on the other hand, like, look, Rivian has big plans.

911
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 3: I mean, this is not a viable company at fifty

912
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 3: or sixty thousand units a year. It's not a viable

913
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 3: company if it's only selling vans to Amazon and not

914
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 3: to other commercial clients. It's not a viable company if

915
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 3: it doesn't have really it needs it needs several new models,

916
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 3: and so you know that requires staffing up, and there's

917
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 3: also been some interestingly, like some former Rivian people over

918
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 3: at VW, So.

919
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 2: I mean, who knows.

920
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 3: Maybe it's evidence that some kind of cross pollination, maybe

921
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 3: that even helped drive this deal, but we definitely didn't

922
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 3: get any of that indication from just speculating on my part.

923
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 1: Just on a personal level, I'm curious what your opinion

924
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 1: is of RJ, especially in light of Elon. You know,

925
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 1: you cover Elon so much, and you know RJ received basically,

926
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: you know, funded by his dad and fifteen years working

927
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 1: in total obscurity. You know, does RJ have what it takes?

928
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 1: Does he have like him or hate him what Elon has?

929
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I I tweeted that like Rivian's like

930
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:38,399
Speaker 3: a thought experiment of a company. I used a foul term,

931
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 3: but like what would Tesla look like if it didn't

932
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 3: have a trollish CEO? And I think that cuts both ways.

933
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 3: I think in certain ways it's really good, right, Like

934
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,879
Speaker 3: I think, and I think that you know, you could

935
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 3: you could go back and look at what where has

936
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 3: Tesla gone wrong? And I think clearly you all may

937
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 3: have different views of this, but I think cyber Truck

938
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 3: huge misstep years late. The design is is like you said,

939
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 3: polarizing is good, but you know, maybe a little bit

940
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 3: too polarizing, you know. And if they had just done

941
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 3: something more conservative, easier to make, I think they would

942
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 3: have one of the most successful pickup trucks in America

943
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 3: right now. And I think, like maybe if Elon is

944
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 3: like spending a little less time like fighting the woke

945
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:20,800
Speaker 3: mind virus and trying to reinvent you know, he's this

946
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 3: famously a first principles thinker. You know, certain things the

947
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 3: way it's done is done that way for a reason.

948
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,240
Speaker 3: I think Tesla spent like basically no amount of time

949
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:31,839
Speaker 3: thinking about like what do pickup truck drivers like? Why

950
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 3: do they drive their pickup trucks?

951
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 2: Who are they?

952
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 3: Like they just I don't think they answered any of

953
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 3: those questions. It's just like, let Elon wants.

954
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:37,959
Speaker 2: To make a cool pickup truck.

955
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 3: That's the plus side. The downside is RJ is not

956
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 3: a charismatic figure. I mean, he's liked by his employees,

957
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 3: but like to me, like he sort of talks like

958
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 3: a consultant to use a lot of like business y terms,

959
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 3: and you know, he talks like a guy Frankly, who

960
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 3: has spent a lot of time in various boardrooms, you know, pitching,

961
00:47:57,719 --> 00:47:59,919
Speaker 3: and you have to be careful and and I think

962
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 3: that create has maybe limited like it doesn't allow him

963
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:07,320
Speaker 3: to attract as much attention. He's not the he's a visionary,

964
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 3: I think, I would argue, but not in the Elon

965
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 3: Musk visionary sense.

966
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 2: But you know, maybe that's okay.

967
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 3: I mean, I think Rivin has a bet that you

968
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 3: can have like a normal car company and be successful,

969
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 3: and that having a normal successful car company would be

970
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 3: really good for the world, would you know, being if

971
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,320
Speaker 3: we're able to come up with like the electric super

972
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 3: or the electric Jeep, or or an electric truck that

973
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 3: sells really well like that would that would be great?

974
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 3: And of course Elon Musk has decided, you know, somewhat

975
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 3: famously that he doesn't even want to think of kit

976
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 3: Tesla as a car company, right. He wants to be

977
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 3: a software company. So I think that's the divide, and

978
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 3: I think it limits Rivin's upside, although it gets them

979
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 3: out of this extremely high leverage, high risk bet that

980
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 3: that Tesla's currently in.

981
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 2: That was Max Chafkin talking to us about Rivian and

982
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 2: the coolest thing, Hannah, that you're going to get to

983
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 2: drive the new newer version of the Rivian R one s.

984
00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 2: By the way, I I don't like the pickup truck,

985
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 2: like I feel that it's if it's not luxury at

986
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:07,439
Speaker 2: least it's like uh special vehicle, like it's a third car. Yes,

987
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 2: and yeah, I don't need that to be a pickup,

988
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 2: like all of my pickup be one of my first two.

989
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 2: So I like the makes sense the suv better and

990
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:17,919
Speaker 2: I'm pretty excited to hear what you think about this

991
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 2: new version because I think they've updated a lot, including

992
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 2: even like the power delivery.

993
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 1: I really think they have. Admittedly, the truck that I

994
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 1: drove was a very early example, so yeah, I haven't

995
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 1: driven the suv. And this is the second generations there

996
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: are it's a second generation are one there, it's the

997
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 1: dual motor. There's gonna be a tri motor coming out

998
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 1: in the fall that I'm also gonna drive, but I'm

999
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 1: really looking forward.

1000
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 2: And then a quad eventually a quad motor with over

1001
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 2: a thousand horse power. That's it for us this week.

1002
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:54,399
Speaker 2: Be sure to email us because we thrive off your

1003
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:58,840
Speaker 2: attention and what's our what's our email address hot Pursuit

1004
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 2: at bloomberg dot net. And yes, we will respond, and

1005
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,879
Speaker 2: we also take suggestions. And that's all I got.

1006
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,719
Speaker 1: I'm Matt Miller and I'm Hannah Elliott at this is Bloomberg.

1007
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 3: Hmmm,