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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Bridget and this assembly, and you're listening

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Speaker 1: the stuff mom never told you. Today, like many of

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Speaker 1: our episodes, we have a pretty big sugar warning. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna be discussing Asease I'm sorry, me too, and the

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Speaker 1: recent allegations of sexual misconduct against him. So if that's

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Speaker 1: something that's tough for you to listen to, just know

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Speaker 1: that's what today's episode is all about. Now. You may

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Speaker 1: have noticed earlier this week Babe dot Net, an online outlet,

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Speaker 1: published new allegations against comedian Disease I'm sorry, basically accusing

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Speaker 1: him of sexual misconduct towards a twenty three year old photographer.

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Speaker 1: They're calling Grace a pseudonym during a date. And if

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Speaker 1: you've tweeted with me at all this week, you know

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Speaker 1: that I didn't want to touch this subject with a

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Speaker 1: ten football, but y'all have demanded it, and we decided, really, Bridget,

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Speaker 1: you took the lead on this that with great podcasting

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Speaker 1: comes great responsibility. So we are waiting in to the

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Speaker 1: firestorm that followed that Babe dot net publication. It was

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Speaker 1: such a firestorm. I've seen debates all over social media. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: it's been kind of surprising. The amount of fervent takes

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Speaker 1: I've seen surrounding this one allegation. Yeah, there's been a

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Speaker 1: lot of vitriol spewed back and forth, a lot of

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Speaker 1: people basically coming to a Zesus defense, saying that Grace

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Speaker 1: was wrong to bring this up to begin with by

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Speaker 1: ruining his career. I mean, there's been a lot of

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Speaker 1: women arguing over whether or not this warranted the kind

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Speaker 1: of expose that it got, and whether, at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, the publication was at fault for really

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Speaker 1: exploiting Grace's story because there was a celebrity name attached,

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Speaker 1: and what really means for the hashtag me too movement exactly.

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Speaker 1: So let's back up and break down exactly what's going

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Speaker 1: on here. On January, Babe dot Net reporter Katie Way

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Speaker 1: published this viral story accusing a Zise a sexual misconduct

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Speaker 1: during a September twenties seventeen date with Grace. In this piece,

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Speaker 1: Grace describes this as quote the worst night of her life.

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Speaker 1: She says that as Zse moved her hand to his

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Speaker 1: penis after she moved it away several times, put his

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Speaker 1: fingers in her mouth after she physically moved away from him,

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Speaker 1: she writes, it was thirty minutes of me getting up

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Speaker 1: and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down

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Speaker 1: my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt a game.

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Speaker 1: According to the article, she quote used verbal and non

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Speaker 1: verbal cues to indicate how uncomfortable and distressed she was,

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Speaker 1: even telling him quote, I don't want to feel forced,

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Speaker 1: because then I'll hate you, and I'd rather not hate you.

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Speaker 1: She felt pressured to give him oral sex. Quote. He

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Speaker 1: sat back and pointed to his penis in motion for

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Speaker 1: me to go down on him, and I did. I

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Speaker 1: think I just felt really pressured. It was literally the

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Speaker 1: most unexpected thing I thought would happen at that moment,

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Speaker 1: because I told him I was uncomfortable. After expressing her discomfort,

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Speaker 1: he multiple times bent her overrepressed his penis against her,

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Speaker 1: and asked her where do you want me to you?

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Speaker 1: And after he bent her over, she says, quote, I

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Speaker 1: stood up and said, no, I don't think I'm ready

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Speaker 1: to do this. I really don't think I'm going to

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Speaker 1: do this, And he said, how about we just chill,

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Speaker 1: but this time with our clothes on. So was this

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Speaker 1: sort of back in forth game. It felt like being chased.

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Speaker 1: That's definitely how Grace describes it in this piece. The

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Speaker 1: next day, she says that he texted her saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: it was nice to meet you, and she sent back,

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Speaker 1: last night might have been fun for you, but it

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Speaker 1: wasn't for me. You've ignored clear nonverbal cues. You kept

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Speaker 1: going with advances. You had to have noticed I was uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: I want to make sure you're aware, so maybe the

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Speaker 1: next girl doesn't have to cry. On the ride home.

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Speaker 1: After getting this text, he replied with an apology. And honestly,

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Speaker 1: I think we've all had dates like this, and that

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Speaker 1: was what was so I mean, beyond the celebrity name attached.

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Speaker 1: I think that was what was so interesting about this

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Speaker 1: piece that triggered a lot of women out there and

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Speaker 1: and triggered a lot of people out there, is that

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Speaker 1: we can all point to a time when we've been pursued,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of men say, well, this is how,

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Speaker 1: this is how you're supposed to have sex, like you're

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Speaker 1: supposed to pursue people doggedly. And I think that relatability

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Speaker 1: struck me. But it also made a lot of women

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Speaker 1: who spoke out against Grace feel like Grace get over yourself.

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Speaker 1: Everybody has bad dates. Yeah. I was struck by this

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Speaker 1: tweet by Sadie Doyle. She says, one thing I can

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Speaker 1: say is that even men I trust and like have

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Speaker 1: told me that they were socialized to believe that if

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Speaker 1: a woman says no, you should test that boundary to

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Speaker 1: make sure she really means it. That ideology lays the

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Speaker 1: groundwork for this four hour just checking kind of assault.

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Speaker 1: And so the question really is is this a bad date?

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Speaker 1: Is this something that we should all be expected to

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Speaker 1: endure with dating and having sex? Is it sex all assault?

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Speaker 1: Is it a sex crime? I think that her her

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Speaker 1: story really raises all these kinds of questions, which are valid.

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Speaker 1: So back to Grace's story, Grace says that it was

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Speaker 1: her friends that helped her see what she had previously

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Speaker 1: thought of as just a bad date or a night

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Speaker 1: gone bad, as sexual assault. In the piece they write,

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Speaker 1: Grace says her friends helped her grapple with the aftermath

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Speaker 1: of her night with disease. It took a really long

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Speaker 1: time for me to validate this a sexual thought, she

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Speaker 1: told us. I was debating it as an awkward sexual

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Speaker 1: experience or sexual assault, and that's why I confronted so

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Speaker 1: many of my friends and listened to what they had

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Speaker 1: to say because I wanted the validation that was actually

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Speaker 1: not that bad. And this was all made more complicated

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Speaker 1: on last Sunday when A zse I'm Sorry was up

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Speaker 1: there at the Golden Globe speaking with his time's uppin.

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Speaker 1: And the fact of the matter is, as these on,

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Speaker 1: Sorry has a long public history of being an outspoken feminist.

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Speaker 1: His book was one of my favorite reads a couple

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Speaker 1: of years ago, and I stand by that. I thought

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Speaker 1: his body of work on that was excellent. It talked

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Speaker 1: about the challenges and confusing landscape of dating in the

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Speaker 1: modern era, and honestly, hearing this story about him knowing

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Speaker 1: his body of work when it comes to his show

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Speaker 1: Master of None, when it comes to his stand up

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Speaker 1: pretty much centered on the quirks of dating today, it

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Speaker 1: is not surprising that someone who has been outspokenly clueless

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Speaker 1: about how to engage with women in a respectful way

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Speaker 1: had an experience like this in which he unknowingly and

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Speaker 1: perhaps unintentionally victimized this woman on what he thought was

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Speaker 1: of normal first date, which was far from it. So

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Speaker 1: what you just described about his body of work is

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Speaker 1: exactly what Grace says compelled her to come forward with

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Speaker 1: this story. She says watching him on the Golden Globe

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Speaker 1: stage wearing a Time's Up pin, getting an award for

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Speaker 1: a show that really centers him as a good guy

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Speaker 1: feminist ally is what made her want to come for word.

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Speaker 1: And to be clear, on Master of None, he does

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Speaker 1: deal with issues of sexual harassment, sexual assault, gender power dynamics,

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Speaker 1: and he does set himself up as a kind of

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Speaker 1: feminist ally and spoiler alert if you haven't seen Master

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Speaker 1: of None and don't want a plot point for that

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Speaker 1: show spoiled for you, I'm going to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: One of the plot points in season two is that

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Speaker 1: Disease is forced to stand up to his boss on

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Speaker 1: a cooking television show because his boss has been outed

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Speaker 1: as a serial sexual harasser. People on our crew have

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Speaker 1: come to me and said, you've been inappropriate with them.

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Speaker 1: What people? What are you talking? Women? Years? So you're

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Speaker 1: telling me none of this happened, None of this happened.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, man, Sorry for me to buy I mean,

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Speaker 1: why are these people make it up? What do you mean? Why? Naive? Okay,

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Speaker 1: they want money? So you can really see how we

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Speaker 1: all bought into the idea of disease as a good guy,

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Speaker 1: a nice guy, someone who is interested in talking about gender,

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Speaker 1: talking about dating, talking about sex, and doing so an

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Speaker 1: way that highlights gender and power discrepancies. And that's what's

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Speaker 1: hard about reconciling all of this is how can someone

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Speaker 1: who's so outspoken about his feminism have this kind of

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Speaker 1: protocol on a date, Like, how can there be such

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Speaker 1: a disconnect? And I also think that there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of people who think the date she described is perfectly

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Speaker 1: normal and expected, which is a whole other can of worms.

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Speaker 1: So after the Babe dot Net story published, Unsorry released

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Speaker 1: a statement in which he acknowledged that they had engaged

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Speaker 1: in sexual activity, which he said, quote by all indications,

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Speaker 1: was completely consensual, but acknowledged that when he heard it

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Speaker 1: wasn't that, you know, when he got that text from

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Speaker 1: her and realized it wasn't for her, he was quote

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Speaker 1: surprised and concerned. So that's what went down. When we

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Speaker 1: come back from this quick break, let's talk through the

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Speaker 1: myriad of responses that took the Internet by storm this

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Speaker 1: week after this quick word from our sponsors, and we're

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Speaker 1: back and we just talked through the basic fundamental facts

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Speaker 1: behind these new allegations that emerged this past week from

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Speaker 1: an anonymous woman who's calling herself grace against as these

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry now. The response to the baby Done Net

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Speaker 1: story is where the real story is on this front,

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Speaker 1: and what it says about the hashtag me to movement

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Speaker 1: is more interesting to me than the initial piece itself. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: as you might imagine, critics were quick to respond to

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Speaker 1: this piece. Writing at The New York Times, Bari Weiss

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Speaker 1: wrote that the only thing I'm Sorry was guilty of

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Speaker 1: was quote not being a mind reader. She says, I'm

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Speaker 1: apparently the victim of sexual assault, and if you're a

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Speaker 1: sexually active woman in the twenty century, chances are you

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Speaker 1: are too. That is what I learned from the quote

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Speaker 1: expose of a z S I'm Sorry, published last weekend

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Speaker 1: by the feminist website Babe. Arguably the worst thing that

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Speaker 1: has happened in a Me Too movement since it began

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Speaker 1: in October. It transforms what ought to be a movement

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Speaker 1: for women's empowerment into an emblem for female helplessness. I

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Speaker 1: have the weirdest reaction to that piece, which is I

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Speaker 1: agree with almost everything that's been written about this, Like,

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Speaker 1: I read the pieces that say Grace was victimized, and

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Speaker 1: I'm nodding in agreement, like, yeah, that definitely was messed

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Speaker 1: up and that shouldn't have happened to her. And then

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Speaker 1: I read a piece like this from Weiss saying, you

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Speaker 1: know what, Grace, you had power. You had power in

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Speaker 1: this stance. You had power to leave, You had the

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Speaker 1: power to walk up. And the coercive actions that Harvey

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Speaker 1: Weinstein was using are not even comparable to the kind

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Speaker 1: of experience that you had on this date with his

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Speaker 1: views on Sorry, and I I think it's a very

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Speaker 1: gray area, but I understand this argument, and I can

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Speaker 1: I can empathize, maybe too much more than I'd like to,

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Speaker 1: because I'd like to obviously just champion Grace in this instance.

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Speaker 1: But this is not the same. This is not the

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Speaker 1: same use of power to coerce sexual activity from somebody.

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Speaker 1: It's just Grace should have spoken up. Grace, I wish

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Speaker 1: she had been in a position to use her voice

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Speaker 1: and say no and walk out and leave when it

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Speaker 1: wasn't being listened to. Well, that's pretty much what wife

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Speaker 1: says in this New York Times piece. She goes on

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Speaker 1: to say, I'm a proud feminist, and this is what

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Speaker 1: I thought while reading that article. If you're hanging out

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Speaker 1: naked with a man, it's safe to assume he's going

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Speaker 1: to try to have sex with you. It's the failure

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Speaker 1: to choose a Peno noir over a Pino griggio offends you.

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Speaker 1: You can leave right then and there. If you don't

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Speaker 1: like the way your date hustles through paying the check.

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Speaker 1: You can say I've had a lovely evening and I'm

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Speaker 1: going home now. If you go home with him to

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Speaker 1: discover he's a terrible kisser, say I'm out. If you

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Speaker 1: start to hook up and you don't like the way

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Speaker 1: he smells or the way he talks, or doesn't end it.

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Speaker 1: If you pressure you to do something you don't want

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Speaker 1: to do, use a four letter word, stand up on

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Speaker 1: your own two feet and walk out his door. And

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Speaker 1: I get it, and I want that to happen, and

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Speaker 1: I I want there to be more women who feel

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Speaker 1: empowered to do that, which is a huge part of

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Speaker 1: my entire career thus far. But I also remember what

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Speaker 1: it's like to be coerced into sex. I was grace.

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Speaker 1: I think we've all been in grace. Issues. I really

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Speaker 1: think it's a universal experience and that doesn't make it right.

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Speaker 1: I'm almost thinking of Amber Rose, notably the woman pioneering

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Speaker 1: the slut walk right, and she said in an interview

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Speaker 1: sitting on a couch with a talk show host, if

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Speaker 1: I am butt naked on your bed and I say no,

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Speaker 1: that means no. Like that alone should be listened to

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Speaker 1: and enthusiastic consent should be the baseline for sexual interactions

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Speaker 1: of all kinds. But unfortunately it isn't. It just isn't,

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Speaker 1: and we aren't necessarily raising our men or even adolescent

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Speaker 1: boys to understand that. So in the meantime, we women

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Speaker 1: have to have power to stand up and walk out

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Speaker 1: the door, because only you can protect your body in

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Speaker 1: that instance. I think that's definitely right. But I think

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Speaker 1: that critiques like wise is obscure the fact that there

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Speaker 1: is a power imbalance here. So even though this comedian

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Speaker 1: is not her boss, he's famous, he's older than her,

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Speaker 1: and I think that just highlighting the ways in which, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he wasn't pinning her down or restraining her or making

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Speaker 1: it so she couldn't get out of the door. But

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Speaker 1: keep in mind this is someone famous. Because I went

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Speaker 1: back to someone famous his apartment. We can't say that

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Speaker 1: our levels of power are the same, and so I

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Speaker 1: think what's always important is to keep in mind the

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Speaker 1: various levels of power. Who has power, who doesn't. And

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Speaker 1: I think in this situation, he has more power than her.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying she's powerless, but I'm saying that might

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Speaker 1: explain why it might feel difficult to slap, you know,

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Speaker 1: slap him across the face, or to pretend like you're

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Speaker 1: enjoying it, or to you know, not immediately calling uber

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Speaker 1: and leave when things get tent. I know it's fraught.

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Speaker 1: I've been in the instance. I feel like we've all

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Speaker 1: been there, and I honestly feel like, as a young woman,

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Speaker 1: I didn't think I could do all of those things

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Speaker 1: about yet the basis is being assertive about your bodily autonomy.

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Speaker 1: But again, that's the whole trip, I think, is that

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Speaker 1: it's not a personal problem, it's a a wider cultural problem.

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Speaker 1: And so putting that all on Gray saying Grace, don't

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Speaker 1: you know that you can just kick him in the balls,

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Speaker 1: and we need if things got out of hand, why

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Speaker 1: pretend like we live in a culture that has been

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Speaker 1: feeding grace messages that that's okay. Look at our popular culture.

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Speaker 1: How many times in in movies that are builled as

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Speaker 1: comedies is the jokes supposed to be? Oh, the guys

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Speaker 1: violated the girl's consent because he was horny, and that's okay.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that funny? Why pretend like we've all been raised

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Speaker 1: in a society where it's totally cool for a woman

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Speaker 1: to loudly say no, I object to this on a

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Speaker 1: date without things getting weird. Yeah, well things will get weird.

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Speaker 1: That's the price we pay for not feeling like it

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Speaker 1: was the worst night of our lives. So we gotta

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Speaker 1: get comfortable with it getting weird. But more importantly, as

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Speaker 1: these should have known better, More importantly, men should know better,

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Speaker 1: Like this shouldn't be a position that so many of

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Speaker 1: us can relate to because it shouldn't happen. And I

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Speaker 1: wrote a long time ago on the website Roll Reboot

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Speaker 1: that we have to eliminate the thrill of the chase mentality,

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Speaker 1: that narrative that men are, you know, out for the

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Speaker 1: night to hunt women, that men have to catch prey,

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Speaker 1: that analogy that you have to sort of be a

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Speaker 1: hunter about how you're going to get women in bed

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Speaker 1: with you is so problematic for all of us. And

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Speaker 1: I think the problem with this narrative that spun out

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Speaker 1: of control following the Babe article is that it's not

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Speaker 1: clear cut her fault or his fault. I think the

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Speaker 1: question that's putting Grace on blast in a lot of

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Speaker 1: ways was her response of going public with this disproportionately putitive. Well,

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Speaker 1: if you ask Caitlin flannag And over at the Atlantic,

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Speaker 1: she would say absolutely yes. She actually classified the Babe

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Speaker 1: dot net piece as quote revenge porn. She it's Grace

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Speaker 1: wanted affection, kindness, attention. Perhaps she hoped to even become

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Speaker 1: this famous man's girlfriend. He wasn't interested. What she felt afterward,

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Speaker 1: rejected yet another time by yet another man was regret

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Speaker 1: and what she did and the writer who told her

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Speaker 1: story created was three thousand words of revenge porn. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know. I don't know how to feel

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Speaker 1: about that. I don't know revenge porn is exactly what

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Speaker 1: this is. But that's the ultimate question here. I'm curious

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Speaker 1: to hear what our listeners think. I don't like this

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Speaker 1: narrative of comparing victimhoods between Grace and I'm sorry. I'm

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Speaker 1: uncomfortable with it too, and that's when I see this

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Speaker 1: narrative hifting so easily toward on headline news journalist Ashley

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Speaker 1: Banfield had an open letter to Grace, and here's what

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Speaker 1: she said. I'm sorry that you had a bad date.

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Speaker 1: I have had a few myself. They stink. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: it must be really weighing on you. Um, it's hard

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Speaker 1: being a victim, very painful. Just to ask anyone who's

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Speaker 1: been on that end of crime and justice, I covered

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Speaker 1: them every day. It's no picnic. But let's take a

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Speaker 1: moment to reflect on what you claim was the first

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Speaker 1: night of your life and quote, you had a bad date.

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Speaker 1: Your date got overly amorous. After protesting his moves, you

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Speaker 1: did not get up and leave right away. You continue

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Speaker 1: to engage in the sexual encounter. By your own clear description,

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Speaker 1: this was not a rape, nor was it a sexual assault.

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Speaker 1: Your sexual encounter was unpleasant. It did not send you

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Speaker 1: to the police. It did not affect your workplace or

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Speaker 1: your ability to get a job. So I have to

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Speaker 1: ask you what exactly was your beef. So there's a

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Speaker 1: lot going on in that clip. One thing I want

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Speaker 1: to point out is that I'm not super comfortable with

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Speaker 1: Banfield saying this is or is not sexual assault because

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Speaker 1: she wasn't there. I wasn't there, you weren't there. I

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Speaker 1: found it kind of surprising that she would go on

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Speaker 1: TV and emphatically declare what you've experienced was not sexual

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Speaker 1: a fault, it was a bad date. It sounds like

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Speaker 1: she could like asked a couple attorneys to say, just

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Speaker 1: based on this description, yeah, yea or nay sexual assault

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Speaker 1: and again like we have laws on the books, but

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Speaker 1: those laws are being proven either applicable or lacking in

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Speaker 1: court every day. Absolutely, And I also think could have

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Speaker 1: beyond that. I'm troubled by the idea that a journalist

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Speaker 1: on TV would give an a pointed open letter to

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Speaker 1: someone who anonymously came forward with a story where they

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Speaker 1: feel they were sexually abused or went through a sexual assault.

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Speaker 1: I think that sets a really weird precedent. Even if

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Speaker 1: you think, oh, this didn't happen, she's being vindictive, whatever, whatever,

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Speaker 1: I don't like the precedent that a journalist would go

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Speaker 1: on TV and had a very severe finger wagging session

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Speaker 1: to someone who believes they were the victim of a

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Speaker 1: traumatic crime. Yeah. Two things on that. One, I think

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Speaker 1: everyone went up ed crazy. I think that's what this

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Speaker 1: week has been about. And two, did you get the

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Speaker 1: sense of like feminist waves crashing because I got this, Oh,

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Speaker 1: you overly sensitive special snowflake millennials. You know, we second

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Speaker 1: wave feminists know what real struggle is like when it

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Speaker 1: comes to sexism at work, and basically you don't know

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Speaker 1: what real struggle is. However, there's a component to this

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Speaker 1: where if I were the victim of a rape, if

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Speaker 1: I were a sexual assault survivor, and I read her

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Speaker 1: story and she was conflating rape to her experience the

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Speaker 1: worst night of her life, I think part of what

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Speaker 1: Ashley Vanfield was actually doing there was standing up for

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Speaker 1: what she considers real victims, because I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of victims would read, you know, this woman's anonymous story

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Speaker 1: and say, you don't even have to deal with this

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Speaker 1: in your own identity. You haven't come forward with this.

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Speaker 1: This experience was bad, but you're claiming the mantle of

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Speaker 1: victimhood and it's a bit of a stretch. I mean

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Speaker 1: from the perspective of someone who is truly and more

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Speaker 1: severely victimized. I think Actuley deals with those stories every day.

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Speaker 1: You know, she came down and condemned this anonymous, delicious

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Speaker 1: report because it doesn't hold water compared to real struggle

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Speaker 1: that's out there. And I'm not saying that that's something

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Speaker 1: I necessarily agree with, but I understand where that sentiment

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Speaker 1: and where all that anger comes from. Yeah. Well, first

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Speaker 1: of all, Grace doesn't characterize what happened to her as

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Speaker 1: a rape. She does say that she feels that she

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Speaker 1: was sexually assaulted. But I think that even that line

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Speaker 1: of thinking that maybe understandable that I think Banfield is

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Speaker 1: probably getting caught up on that line of thinking that

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Speaker 1: says there are real victims and not real victims. I

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Speaker 1: don't like at all, because it's not a contest. And

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Speaker 1: I think that oftentimes for women, we feel the need

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Speaker 1: to talk about experiences that were traumatic for us in

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Speaker 1: a way that emphasizes that it wasn't that bad, or

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Speaker 1: that it wasn't really a rape, or in a way

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Speaker 1: that minimizes what they actually meant for us. And so

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Speaker 1: I think in terms of Grace's story, I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of folks will read that and they want to say, Oh,

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Speaker 1: that's not that bad, that's typical, that's how it is

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Speaker 1: because it makes our own trauma and our own struggles

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Speaker 1: feel more normal if you don't want to have to

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Speaker 1: talk about the fact that that bad date you went

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Speaker 1: on in college was actually a sexual assault. Reading Grace's

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Speaker 1: story where and she says I came to realize I

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Speaker 1: was assaulted, might be hard for you. You You might actually

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Speaker 1: be invested in her story not being a crime because

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Speaker 1: it's so common. And if it's so common, that means

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Speaker 1: I've been sexually assaulted, You've been sexually assaulted. We've all

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Speaker 1: been sexually assaulted. And maybe that's true, and maybe that

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Speaker 1: truth is really heavy. Yes, it's almost like this denial,

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Speaker 1: like I can't accept that she's a real victim, or

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Speaker 1: I would be accepting that I and all of my

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Speaker 1: friends are victims, and then I'm probably raising sexual predators

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Speaker 1: right now. And it kind of collapses the entire the

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Speaker 1: entire reality of gender dynamics and sexual dynamics and consent,

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Speaker 1: and it makes it so much more real. It makes

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Speaker 1: it so much more real because we're living it. We're

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Speaker 1: steeped in it, were bathed in it, we're breathing it in.

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Speaker 1: It's not just this thing that happens on the news

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Speaker 1: or that happens with famous guys will probably never meet

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Speaker 1: like Harvey Weinstein. It happens in dorm rooms, that happens

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Speaker 1: on dates. Maybe it's happened to you, Maybe it'll happen

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Speaker 1: to your daughter. We have, but where's the line. Isn't

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Speaker 1: there a line? Like? Is there a line somewhere? And

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Speaker 1: it's just I think the Me Too movement was bound.

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Speaker 1: This was bound to happen. Jill Philipovitch wrote a great

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Speaker 1: op ed in The Guardian saying that it was just

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Speaker 1: a matter of time until this movement was confronted with

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Speaker 1: its peripheral like when, at what point would there be

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Speaker 1: a story that pushed the envelope of she's gone too far,

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Speaker 1: she's overstating it. And that's the debate we're having right now.

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Speaker 1: I don't think Grace's story is it, but I think

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Speaker 1: she's coming close enough to the to the edges of

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Speaker 1: what we might consider assault to force a question upon

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Speaker 1: all of us, which is what is too much? See?

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Speaker 1: That's exactly why I think her story was so important,

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Speaker 1: because listen, I think the Me Too movement has room

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Speaker 1: for all of these stories. I think it's about stories

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Speaker 1: where it's your boss and it's clearly wrong, it's clearly

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Speaker 1: a crime. He's been a serial sexual harasser, and he's

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Speaker 1: intimidating you and making it so that you can't move

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Speaker 1: up in your career and keeping you silent and all

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Speaker 1: of that. I think that has obviously has a place

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Speaker 1: in the Me too movement, But I also think it's

429
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 1: about these other situations that maybe aren't so stark and

430
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 1: so black and white, where it's like, hey, if we're

431
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 1: all talking about these very clear sex crimes, cool, but

432
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 1: what about the fact that it's cool for a woman

433
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 1: to go over to a man's house and for her

434
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:27,720
Speaker 1: to kind of express that she's not into it, and

435
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,200
Speaker 1: for him to think it's fine to just keep pushing her.

436
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,879
Speaker 1: Maybe it's not rape, maybe it's not win Stein, but

437
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: it's still not okay. And I think that this movement

438
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 1: should be vast enough where we can have all kinds

439
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 1: of nuanced conversations about how we think about consent and

440
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,639
Speaker 1: sects in I think that concept was pointed out so

441
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 1: well in this Vox piece by Anna North. She writes,

442
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 1: perhaps what is especially threatening about Grace's story is that

443
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 1: it involves a situation which many men can imagine themselves

444
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: in But this is a reason to discuss it more,

445
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,160
Speaker 1: not to sweep it under the rug. Listening to Grace

446
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 1: doesn't mean deciding all men to go to prison or

447
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 1: should lose their jobs. It does mean admitting that many

448
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,719
Speaker 1: men behave in exactly the ways our culture tells them

449
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,439
Speaker 1: to behave. It means asking men to recognize that and

450
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: do better, And it means changing the culture so that

451
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 1: badgering and pressuring women into sex is deplored, not endorsed.

452
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 1: None of this will happen if we refuse to reckon

453
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: with stories like Grace. I think we can all understand

454
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: how Grace's story is basically forcing us as a nation

455
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 1: to begin to define the parameters on what counts as

456
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 1: sexual assault. But it almost feels like how this op

457
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: ed brigade went down was a missed opportunity. It was

458
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 1: missing the opportunity for us to really have that national

459
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 1: conversation instead arguing over whether or not Grace was in

460
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 1: the right or in the wrong, and the same thing

461
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: for disease. Yeah, I was really disappointed how many of

462
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 1: these op eds in the what you're calling the op

463
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: ed brigade, which I completely agree fell down along the

464
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 1: lines of was it a crime or was it not

465
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,400
Speaker 1: a crime? As if those are the only two binarias

466
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,879
Speaker 1: that we can talk about a sexual encounter along was

467
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 1: it a crime Nope, nothing to see here, or if

468
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 1: it wasn't a crime, totally fine, no reason to talk

469
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 1: about it. And I think what you just said is

470
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 1: so important because it really underscores why it's imperative that

471
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 1: these stories are dealt with with nuance and thoughtfulness and care.

472
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 1: And as much as I'm so happy that Grace came

473
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 1: forward and I'm so happy that she told her story

474
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 1: because I do think it has a place in this movement,

475
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,880
Speaker 1: I do think that Babe dot Net and the reporter

476
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 1: that broke the story did Grace a disservice because listen,

477
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 1: people's sexual traumas are sensitive. You owe it to your

478
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: sources to deal with them in a way that is responsible,

479
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: and I do not feel like the story was responsibly handled.

480
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,120
Speaker 1: And after a quick break, will be joined by Jez

481
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: Bell Deputy editor julianne Escomato Shepherd to discuss how this

482
00:25:51,600 --> 00:26:02,400
Speaker 1: journalist missed the mark. And we're back just talking through

483
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: the recent allegations against comedian disease. AM sorry if you

484
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 1: haven't been following them, they were broken earlier this week

485
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 1: by the outlet Babe dot Net. And if you haven't

486
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: heard of babe dot net, you probably aren't alone. There

487
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: a site aimed at women in their twenties. Started in May.

488
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: Babe dot Net creates content for college students and twentysomethings.

489
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 1: The site is owned by Rupert Murdoch, Yes, the same

490
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: Rupert Murdoch who owned Fox News Network. Just to set

491
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: a little context there. So, after the firestorm that followed

492
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: these allegations being published in Babe dot Net, honestly, something

493
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever seen happen took place online.

494
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: Earlier in the show, we played that headline news clip

495
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 1: from Ashley Banfield Evice rating Grace and Katie Way, the

496
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,199
Speaker 1: Babe dot Net reporter who broke the story, saying that

497
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: they had done a really terrible thing and a disservice

498
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: to the entire me too movement. Well, earlier this week,

499
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,919
Speaker 1: that very same network invited the Babe dot Net reporter

500
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 1: onto the show to discuss these allegations. Not to be clear,

501
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,719
Speaker 1: Banfield had really dragged both Grace and this reporter on

502
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 1: national television, So I do not bought this reporter for

503
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 1: not being super excited to come on the show, but Emily,

504
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: how did she respond? And so the latest chapter in

505
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: his insane saga is the babe dot net reporter sent

506
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:25,719
Speaker 1: an email to Banfield's team that went completely off the rails,

507
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: insulting the network, insulting Ashley, saying that she was quote

508
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 1: someone I'm certain no one under the age of forty

509
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: five has ever heard of, by the way, and then

510
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,639
Speaker 1: basically saying she could have talked to me, but instead

511
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: she quote targeted a twenty three year old woman in

512
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: one of the most vulnerable moments of her life, someone

513
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,719
Speaker 1: she's never met before, for a little attention, which, by

514
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 1: the way, felt a little bit like double speak to me,

515
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: because isn't that exactly what this reporter had done to

516
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: that twenty three year old? But now she's yelling at

517
00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 1: Ashley Banfield for going on a tirade against the victim, herself,

518
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: the grace person. So basically, this babe dot net reporters saying,

519
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 1: I hope the ratings were worth it. I hope the

520
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 1: five hundred retweets on the single news right up made

521
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: that burgundy lipstick bad highlights. Second wave feminist has been

522
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:21,120
Speaker 1: feel relevant for a little while. Um, first of all,

523
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 1: what I like burgundy lipstick? What's wrong with burgundy lipstick?

524
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess we're old, that's what she's saying.

525
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: Old like that. Yeah, I'm a certified old hag for sure.

526
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 1: But first of all, the irony of insulting a woman's

527
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: age and looks over these allegations. I mean, on top

528
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: of the irony that this is a reporter who basically

529
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: used this doz story to make her babe dot net

530
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: website that no one's ever heard of, by the way

531
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: to viral sensation, is insulting the news anchor for being opportunistic, Like, no,

532
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: that's not the person here who who is being exploitative

533
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 1: of a victim. Sorry. Yeah, So I really was shocked

534
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: by this email, and at the end of the day,

535
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: it just left me feeling really really sad for Grace.

536
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: I felt like Grace's story was not being centered. I

537
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 1: felt like this was a conversation to raise babe dot

538
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: nets profile to you know, this reporter obviously felt very

539
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 1: personally invested in this story, and it just made me

540
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: feel really really sad for this person who had made

541
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: these allegations. Yeah, it sounds like the story got away

542
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: from the actual what happened and became more about a

543
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: journalistic angle quite frankly totally. That's why it's so important

544
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: for stories like this to be told with nuance and responsibility.

545
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: And for more on that, we're joined in studio by

546
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: deputy editor of jezz bell dot com, Julianne Escobado Shepherd,

547
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: who wrote an amazing jazz Bell piece breaking down all

548
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: the ins and outs of why babe dot nets reporting

549
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: all these allegations kind of fell flat. Julianne, were so

550
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: happy that you could be here with us today, Hi, Bridget,

551
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: and I'm so excited to be are with you. So

552
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: in your must read jet Bell piece, you pointed out

553
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: some of the ways that babe dot net really almost

554
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: did a disservice to Grace in these allegations. Can you

555
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: talk about some of the biggest blaws you saw what

556
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: they're reporting? Yeah, I mean so as an editor, I

557
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: really wanted to just go in and rearrange it for one,

558
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: but um, well, I think one of my biggest issues

559
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: was that it really put the details of what happened

560
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 1: to Grace in such a way that felt um prurient

561
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: and almost gawky. UM, and you know, I can see

562
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: where that could possibly be even re traumatizing to her

563
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 1: or to anyone reading it. Obviously, you know there's always uh,

564
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: there's a risk of that, UM when you're reporting these pieces.

565
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: But I think just the way that it read, uh

566
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: sort of with some of the semior details of it, UM,

567
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: felt very exploitive, And that was my main issue with it.

568
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: It was very voyeuristic and how they laid out what

569
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: happened down to screenshots of text message exchanges, right, which

570
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: felt journalistically unnecessary, didn't it right? And also you know,

571
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: I think they were using that as proof that they

572
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: you know, some sort of proof that they had it

573
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: or but there was it wasn't actual proof, you know, UM,

574
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: we don't know. Obviously, screenshots are easy to doctor and UM,

575
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: you know, I think that there's more to be done

576
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: as far as UM corroborating a story that I think

577
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,479
Speaker 1: that they did not do obviously, you know, I just

578
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: want to preface those with I believe Grace, and I

579
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: believe that this happened. But you know, you want to

580
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: as a journalist protect your sources, especially in stories like these, UM,

581
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: which can be you know, some of the most traumatic

582
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: stories for your subjects, um and they just didn't do

583
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: the amount of protection for her that I think those

584
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: kind of journalism really requires. I couldn't agree more. I

585
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: just left the entire thing just feeling really bad for Grace,

586
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: And I remember, you know this, this, all these allegations

587
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: created this hotbed of Twitter chatter and Facebook chatter, and

588
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: I'll never forget someone that I know and respect posting

589
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,479
Speaker 1: on social media about the detail that she includes in

590
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: the story that Grace prefers white wine, but she didn't

591
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: get to choose the kind of wine that she wanted,

592
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,719
Speaker 1: as these brought her red wine. And he said, oh,

593
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: is as these having his entire career ruined because he

594
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: didn't didn't order the right kind of wine or that

595
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: because you know, And it almost seemed like including that

596
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: detail made her story seem less believable, that she was

597
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: just annoyed that he you know, treated her badly on

598
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: this date, and it allowed readers to not focus on

599
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: the more serious aspects of what she was saying happened

600
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: that And also I think the inclusion of the author's

601
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: opinion of her outfit was completely egregious and then also

602
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: brings into question, you know, the idea that we how

603
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,239
Speaker 1: of to talk about what women are wearing um in

604
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 1: these cases and cases of sexual assault. Like the fact

605
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: that she even included that part. I think maybe she

606
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: was trying to sort of push back on that idea,

607
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: but it actually ended up sort of reinforcing it. And

608
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: even the editorial liberties of naming one of his zes

609
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: moves as the didn't they call the claw that felt

610
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: like so unnecessary that it just felt exploited if and

611
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: the whole piece felt like a grab for clicks, didn't

612
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: it didn't it at the end of the day feel like, Okay,

613
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: this is a famous celebrity. We're gonna hop on the

614
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: hashtag bandwagon and do whatever we can in a really

615
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: sloppy way journalistically to sensationalize this entire movement, which did

616
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 1: not serve the broader movement, right. And I mean, also

617
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: I have to say that, you know, the journalists who

618
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: wrote this is very young, and so I think her

619
00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: editors really failed her as well, um by not attecting

620
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 1: her by giving her the tools um to report because obviously,

621
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: you know, it seemed like this was the first time

622
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 1: she's ever done this kind of story, and um, you know,

623
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: this is she's just starting out in her career, so

624
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,439
Speaker 1: she's probably at risk also, And you know, I feel

625
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: like this is overall a huge failing of a male

626
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: owned website of a lot of young women. So speaking

627
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,359
Speaker 1: of the writer, UM, I was pretty troubled earlier this

628
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: week to see an email that she wrote to journalist

629
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 1: Ashley Banfield on Headline News after being invited to come

630
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 1: on the show to talk about the allegations. Not to

631
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,760
Speaker 1: be clear, Banfield was very critical of both the Babe

632
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 1: dot net reporter and Grace for coming forward with these allegations,

633
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: and so I completely understand why she might not be

634
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 1: feeling the love for Ashley Bandfield. She went on like

635
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: a cable TV tirade against this piece. Okay, Um, so

636
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 1: I completely understand having a negative reaction to being invited

637
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: on a show where you and your source have just

638
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: been dragged. But I'm curious, what did you think of

639
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 1: that email response? Well, I mean to begin with again,

640
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 1: here is this writer Katie ways in experience coming forth?

641
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: Because you know, I fully understand her being angry. I mean,

642
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: Ashley Banfield was really um searing in a in a

643
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: way that was I found a little bit disturbing. Um,

644
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: but she didn't write off the record. She should have,

645
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: you know, from a journalist to another, she should have said,

646
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: this email is off the record, and then you can

647
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 1: say whatever you feel like saying, and you know, Banfield

648
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: would not be able to read it on air, but

649
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 1: she didn't, and so you know, she set herself up

650
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 1: for failure from that point. And then also what she said.

651
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 1: You know, obviously I think, you know, I agree with

652
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,760
Speaker 1: her being angry, but then targeting her looks and targeting

653
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: her age is just you know, that is really disturbing

654
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 1: to me as a person who considers myself a feminist,

655
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: because that's not fair. You know, it's not fair game

656
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: to go after someone's physical appearance or their age, which

657
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 1: they cannot um regular you know, they have no control over. Um. Obviously,

658
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,800
Speaker 1: going after her journalism is fair. So that really disturbed

659
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: me too, because it's sort of added to the narrative

660
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 1: that Babe was just doing this story to make a

661
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: name for itself. Speaking of reporters who do this kind

662
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,839
Speaker 1: of reporting and why it's so important to make sure

663
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: that you're doing it with respect and thoughtfulness, I was

664
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 1: pretty shocked to see the way that Babe dot Net

665
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 1: was almost patting themselves on the back for breaking this story.

666
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 1: They published a piece that was literally just a list

667
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 1: of outlets that picked up their reporting that felt it

668
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 1: very poor taste me. Um. You also mentioned in your

669
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: jezz Bell piece how the Daily Beasts piece on the

670
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 1: allegations against t J. Miller from the show Silicon Valley

671
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:02,800
Speaker 1: included this weird the tweet where the writer was talking about,

672
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: you know, how how proud he was at the story

673
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,439
Speaker 1: and all of that. I don't think I've ever quite

674
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,240
Speaker 1: seen anything like this where you have journalists and media

675
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: outlets almost congratulating themselves for reporting on someone else's traumatic experience.

676
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. I haven't seen it either, and it is

677
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 1: one of the most disturbing aspects to all of this,

678
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 1: I feel, And I think it ties into what I

679
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:33,919
Speaker 1: wrote my piece, um about how since um Jodie Cant

680
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 1: and Megan Tubey broke the Weinstein story in the New

681
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: York Times in October, I think sexual assault reporting has

682
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 1: become a sort of prestige type of reporting where um,

683
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 1: because it's you know, there's this outing of all these

684
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 1: celebrities as predatory. UM. I think people are looking at

685
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: the celebrity aspect of it more than the actual fact

686
00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 1: that women, UM and men are being da imaged. And

687
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 1: you know, I think there are a lot of people

688
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: who are just coming to this type of reporting and

689
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 1: it takes a special light touch. You have to know

690
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 1: how to do it so you don't re traumatize your

691
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: subjects and that you respect, um, you know the gravity

692
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: of the situation. And you also have to question why

693
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: you're doing this story. Are you doing it because you

694
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 1: want to change structure and changed institutions and um expose

695
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 1: people who abuse power, or you doing it because you want,

696
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 1: you know, a headline that has a famous person's name

697
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 1: in it, you know, And that's what I think that

698
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: the sort of boasting points to. It just seems like,

699
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 1: oh cool, like give us the Poulitzer for reporting on

700
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:53,479
Speaker 1: t James Miller or whatever. It's it's so gross. Well,

701
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: it is a moment that's very modern by nature, right

702
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: in the air in which our commander in chief is

703
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 1: tweeting because he says that's the way to directly communicate

704
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: with the public. In the era when fake news is

705
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 1: the label that's used by anyone who wants to disagree

706
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 1: or discredit you, the importance of journalistic integrity has never

707
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: been more salient in in an era where anyone can

708
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 1: publish anything, truly. I mean, that's the democracy of the Internet.

709
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: And in your piece, you wrote perfectly here that we've

710
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: missed an opportunity. You say, quote, there was potential with

711
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: Grace's story. The conversations that followed could have given us

712
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: a real shot at cracking away at the imbalanced sexual

713
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 1: power structures that plague us, the power structures that tell

714
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,919
Speaker 1: us a man's desires are more significant than a woman's,

715
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: And that conditioned Grace not to slap a thirty four

716
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: year old celebrity who she says, took it too far.

717
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: And I think that missed opportunity is a reminder of

718
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: just how important it is for all of us in

719
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: the Me too movement, but especially those who are reporting

720
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 1: on it to do so responsiblame. Yeah, I mean the

721
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: conversation that we should be having, and I think we're

722
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: starting to have, um in the last day or so.

723
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 1: It's so crazy that this piece was published like Saturday

724
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 1: night and it's not even been a week. Um. But

725
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 1: I think the conversation that we should be having is

726
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: about consent and about what these sorts of interactions between

727
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 1: men and women in particular, But I don't think that

728
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,839
Speaker 1: they're necessarily confined to men and women about what they

729
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 1: say about power and expectation and traditional ideas of masculinity

730
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 1: and um, you know, obviously what the goal here is,

731
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 1: I think is to create a more equitable um bottom line.

732
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 1: But because of the way that the piece was reported,

733
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: it allowed us to only focus on that and not

734
00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: and derailed the conversation. Yeah, just that describes so accurately

735
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: my trajectory of feelings on this situation. When I first

736
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: read the Babe dot net piece, I thought, finally we're

737
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 1: having on conversation that goes beyond what we all know

738
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: is awful, wherein someone very powerful and rich and famous

739
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 1: like Harvey Weinstein wages a ten like a ten plus

740
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 1: year campaign of sexual thoughts, harassment, and intimidation, and you know,

741
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 1: it's very obviously a wrong thing to do. It is

742
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: a crime, terrible, terrible. Finally we're having that conversation, but

743
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: also the conversation about interpersonal relations that are probably more pervasive.

744
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: I'm talking about, you know, coercing someone into sex, or

745
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 1: pressuring somebody into sex, or ignoring someone's non verbal and

746
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: verbal cues they're not into it, to kind of wear

747
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 1: them down. I think that in my experience, women are

748
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 1: more likely to face the second kind of sexual misconduct

749
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 1: and maybe not even think of it as sexual misconduct.

750
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 1: And I was like, yes, we're finally having that conversation.

751
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 1: But then when the conversation turned in to you, what

752
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: he did wasn't actually assault or babe at net is

753
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: a terrible outlet. Why did they include these details? Like

754
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: we totally missed the opportunity to deal with what Grace

755
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: lifted because of the way that was reported, right, And

756
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,240
Speaker 1: you know, I think again, I think we are having

757
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: starting to have this conversation because finally we've gotten a

758
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 1: little bit past the reporting um. And one of the

759
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,839
Speaker 1: most important things to come out of it is the

760
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:32,240
Speaker 1: idea that all assault or harassment has to be legally

761
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 1: actionable UM. And I don't like the idea that just

762
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: because um, someone did something that isn't a jailable offense

763
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that there's no imbalance of power. And again,

764
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: I think that particularly millennial women right now, are really

765
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 1: pushing to renegotiate the interactions that we have and I

766
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 1: think it's super important, and I think that I'm so

767
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:04,280
Speaker 1: glad that Grace came forward with her story. I hope that, um,

768
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: you know, she's doing okay honestly because the way people

769
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: are reacting to it. But um, you know, I think actually,

770
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,240
Speaker 1: if we step back and step away from the poor

771
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: reporting and step away from all the chatter about it,

772
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 1: you know, I think this is a really important story,

773
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 1: and you know, it was very brave of her to

774
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 1: come forward with it. Absolutely, I want to be clear.

775
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,879
Speaker 1: I believe Grace, and I'm so happy that Grace came

776
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 1: forward because I think it's an important part of the

777
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 1: me too conversation. I just worry that Grace's experience is

778
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: not being centered in the resulting conversation. One specific thing

779
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,360
Speaker 1: I'm curious about as a journalist, I was surprised to

780
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: find that this babe dot net reporter actually came to

781
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 1: Grace to get her to tell her story and not

782
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 1: the other way around. Is that typical in reporting these

783
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: kinds of stories? Um? Not. In my experience with these

784
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 1: swords sorts of stories, it's not like a typical you know,

785
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 1: finding someone and finding sources reporting out. You generally have

786
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 1: to wait for your sources to come to you because

787
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 1: you know, how did they know, to contratact grades did

788
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: someone give them her name? And that's unethical too, for

789
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: you know, to out another person as a survivor of

790
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: some sexual traumatic experience. UM. I think you know, I

791
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: understand wanting to report out these stories and wanting to

792
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: you know, putting your feelers out and being like, hey,

793
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: if you know of anyone, tell them to come to me.

794
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: But to you know, I'm not sure how they did it.

795
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,280
Speaker 1: But I can't imagine ever cold emailing someone or cold

796
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 1: calling someone and saying like, hey, I heard that you

797
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 1: maybe had a traumatic sexual assault experience. I want to

798
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 1: tell me about it. Um. You know that's that's re

799
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 1: traumatizing and it's also I feel um, crosses an ethical

800
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: and moral boundary in journalism. So, Juliette, what lessons do

801
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,439
Speaker 1: you think reporters and the media at large should take

802
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 1: away from babe dot nets sort of failures in this instance? Well,

803
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 1: the Darts Center has very specific guidelines as to how

804
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: to sensitively report uh these types of stories, and you

805
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 1: can go to their website and download them and print

806
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: them out and paste them to your wall. Things out still, Um,

807
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 1: And you know a lot of it is is really

808
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:36,280
Speaker 1: just understanding that you're dealing with a probably traumatized person. Um.

809
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 1: But also that obviously you still have to do your

810
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: job in journalism, and and um, you know, call the

811
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 1: other person for comment and give them a reasonable amount

812
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 1: of time to respond. Unless your Harvey Weinstein, and you

813
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 1: know you you are have a history of shutting down

814
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 1: stories about you. But um, you know, that's another thing.

815
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 1: I think that Babe's story would have had more credibility

816
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 1: if they had give him that as these a little

817
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: bit longer to respond and hadn't published it on a

818
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: Saturday night. I don't know. That's a whole other thing,

819
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,320
Speaker 1: though I don't understand why they posted it on a

820
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 1: Saturday night anyway. Um, But I think the media and

821
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 1: journalists at large just should take away that it's not

822
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 1: about them. Um. It's not about their career, it's not

823
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:23,879
Speaker 1: about making their outlets more prominent, it's not about getting awards.

824
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 1: It's about the people who have this happens to, and

825
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: ideally making a more just society. I'm fully of the

826
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 1: belief that journalism should, at its best, um, and does

827
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 1: have the capacity to change our culture and our laws

828
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: in our society to be more equitable across the board.

829
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 1: And that's what this is about. I could not agree more. Well,

830
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: I really really thank you for being here today and

831
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 1: helping us shed some light on this nuanced, complex issue. Julianne,

832
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 1: Where can folks find out more about what you're up

833
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: to and keep up with you? Well, you can go

834
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,320
Speaker 1: to jazz fill dot com, where most of my writing

835
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 1: appears um or you can follow me on Twitter at

836
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: john Nita j A w n I t A. Thanks

837
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:13,800
Speaker 1: so much for joining us and helping us break down

838
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 1: how important it is that we, all of us, but

839
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:22,439
Speaker 1: really journalists especially handle these hashtag me too movements with care?

840
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 1: So sminthy listeners, what do you think? Where do you

841
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 1: fall on this entire story? Was a ZS in the wrong?

842
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 1: I think most of us can agree on that, But

843
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 1: is it the system that's to blame? How do we

844
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 1: reconcile zes is outspoken feminism with what went down? According

845
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 1: to Grace? How do you feel about the babe dot

846
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 1: net journalists handling of the story and the op ed

847
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 1: brigade that followed. We want to hear from you. I'm

848
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 1: also curious about were experiences with dating? Do you think

849
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 1: the kind of thing that Grace as she went through

850
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 1: is par for the course or is it something worse?

851
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 1: Let us know. You can find us on Instagram at

852
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,240
Speaker 1: stuff mom Ever Told You, on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast,

853
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 1: and as always, via email at mom Stuff at how

854
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com.