WEBVTT - Nuclear Harbors Big Dreams Despite Hurdles 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:03.560 This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:08.560 the BNAF podcast. Today we talk about nuclear energy. It's 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:10.840 really fallen out of fashion over the last decade with 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:15.000 retirements taking place all over the world, but recently countries 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:18.200 are starting to make noises again about this proven low 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:22.240 carbon technology and the question is really is it back Well, 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:25.520 it all depends on whether or not words become action. 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:28.440 At COP twenty eight in Dubai. At the end of 0:00:28.520 --> 0:00:32.320 last year, twenty five nations committed to tripling global nuclear 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:35.559 capacity by twenty fifty. So how might that take shape? 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:39.280 Will they be reopening shutter nuclear facilities or building new ones, 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:41.280 and if they are new, will the new ones be 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:45.080 small modular reactors? And does the recent spike in the 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:49.280 price of enriched uranium dampen that outlook? So today we 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:53.280 feature our b and EF resident nuclear expert, Kris Kodomski, 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:56.080 and he shares some of the findings from the most 0:00:56.120 --> 0:01:00.279 recently published Nuclear Market Outlook. As a quick reminder, give 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:02.320 us a review if you want to help other people 0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:04.959 find us and subscribe if you want to help yourself 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:07.640 find future shows as they're published. But right now, let's 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:22.200 talk about nuclear's potential for a comeback story with Chris Kadomski. Chris, 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:25.200 welcome back to the show. Well, thank you, we're here 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:28.039 to talk about nuclear what else? And well we've had 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:30.440 you on the show before. You give us an update 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:34.920 on what's happening in this space. Post Fukushima. There were 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:37.920 a lot of retirements of nuclear power plans. Plenty of countries, 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:40.920 including Japan, including Germany, really backed away from it. And 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:42.640 I would say the temperature in the room got a 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:45.880 bit cold for nuclear. But now I want to know 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:48.920 what would you say the temperature in the room is 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:51.120 is nuclear? Is it back? Is it coming back? 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:53.800 Well, one of the younger analysts that BF came up 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:59.040 to me and said that nuclear energy, specifically SMR small 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:02.440 module reactors, is trending now. And I was very very 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:05.680 happy to hear that. It certainly is trending when you 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:09.840 look at say the media coverage and interest from politicians 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:14.640 and interest from environmental groups and goos or so, it 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:18.400 certainly is trending. But being a cheerleader for nuclear power 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:22.520 does not necessarily translate to an actual build out and 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:25.720 rapid expansion of nuclear power, which we would all sort 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:28.240 of hope would happen for us to go ahead and 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:31.800 tackle our net zero aspiration and our climate change goals. 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:33.960 I mean because in many respects, when you think about 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:37.600 nuclear as this carbon free source of energy, everything that 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:39.720 we shut down we've got to backfill with something else, 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:42.600 and in some cases that's ended up being coal, and 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:45.320 that certainly is not carbon free. And for everything that 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:47.720 we shut down, that's something else that it doesn't actually 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:50.480 get to replace. So the renewables are replacing then the 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:53.519 nuclear instead of other high carbon parts of the economy. 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:57.360 So it certainly is part of the solution, and let's 0:02:57.400 --> 0:02:59.760 talk a bit about what part of the solution it 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:03.120 could be in the future. So with small modular let's 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:06.080 just do a definition for everybody who's listening, how do 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:08.280 you define small modular reactors? 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:12.919 Small module actors of which they're about eighty being developed 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:15.760 around the world, are defined to be somewhat less than 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:20.800 three hundred megawats electric, but of course there's exemptions to that. 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:23.839 Or the Rolls Royce reactor is coming in at over 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:27.880 four hundred and forty megawats a reactor, and so it's 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:32.560 also I characterize that as being an SMR. So besides 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:36.240 the size characteristic. We want to look at other aspects 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:39.160 of the technology. That it's safer, that it's modular, it 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:42.960 could be manufactured in a factory instead of built on site, 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:46.040 and that provides a lot of advantages as far as 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:50.640 getting down the cost learning curve and hoping to produce 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:54.320 a reactor that is going to be less expensive on 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:57.760 a per kilowatt basis. There also is extinction that we 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:01.160 need to sort of make between SMR which are small 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:07.480 and advanced reactors. Small SMRs are typically characterized by being 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:11.680 light water reactors, so it's in small innovations. It's a 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:16.600 small move and the only really innovation is really shrinkages side. 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.760 Maybe there's some additional safety features that they incorporate in 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:23.839 the post Fukushima environment. There's also something that I characterizes 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:28.280 advanced reactors that are using different types of technology, new technologies, 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:31.279 and the example would be the fast reactor that Bill 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:35.880 Gates is developing with terror power, which neutrons and electrons 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:38.960 are flying around at a much faster speed. They have 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.159 the ability therefore to sort of consume spent fuel and 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:45.280 to burn the fuel much more effectively. It's a hedge 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:50.640 against proliferation and it perhaps deals with the longevity issue 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:53.679 of spent nuclear fuel. There are also high temperature gas 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:57.360 reactors which theoretically cannot melt down, and there's molten salt 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:01.040 reactors where the uranium is already in molten state, very 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:05.159 very hot. So these are advanced features, more safety and 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:09.280 suggests that these reactors could be located closer to population 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:14.560 centers and also without the extensive then and expensive containment 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:17.400 that typically characterize the large reactors. 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:20.960 So more safety and certainly a lot of new technology 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:25.240 that's coming out. So yeah, definitely trending from a news standpoint, 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:28.400 trending topically, but let's talk about implementation. So where in 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:31.360 the world have they started working with SMRs. 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:34.680 For example, there's only two SMRs that operate in the 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:37.800 world today. One is in Russia north of the Arctic 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:41.680 Circle that's been operating since twenty nineteen early twenty twenty. 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:46.000 The other one has been operating for six months in China, 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:49.400 and it's an advanced reactor, a high temperature gas reactor. 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:54.320 Both the Russians and the Chinese are working on additional SMRs, 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:57.040 and there are other places in the world. Argentina has 0:05:57.080 --> 0:05:59.960 been working on an SMR for the last ten years, 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:04.799 so and with very little progress for political and management 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:08.200 changes that are going on at the site. And very sadly, 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:11.960 the US had a leading SMR project that was to 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:15.920 be built in Idaho at Idaho National Labs, and that 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:19.960 project fell on its sword last November because they realized 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:22.880 that the cost of electricity they were delivering to the 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:26.560 customer ums was going to be too high and they 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:29.760 mutually agreed to terminate the project. So there are a 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:33.560 lot of questions about whether SMRs can deliver on the 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:39.680 promise of providing inexpensive electricity or competitive electricity that makes 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.479 it worthy of consideration by utility customer. 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:45.159 So now there are a number of countries though, that 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:48.359 are looking to really ramp up their nuclear capacity, or 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:50.479 at least that's what they said at COP twenty eight. 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:52.840 Can you talk a little bit about what those commitments 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:56.920 were and how much they're looking to increase nuclear on 0:06:56.960 --> 0:06:57.520 their grids. 0:06:57.960 --> 0:06:59.800 So the big news that came out of COP twenty 0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:03.200 eight eight, who was an agreement between twenty five countries 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:06.279 or so to triple nuclear capacity from about three hundred 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:10.120 and seventy gigawatts now presently installed around the world to 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:14.040 over eleven hundred gigawatts by twenty fifty and so that's 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:17.480 a huge, huge lift. And so the question is that 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:22.760 was a proclamation by politicians NGOs, and I question whether 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:26.400 or not the execution can be followed through so that 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:28.720 we actually go ahead and get there. And if you 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:32.600 look at the ramp, you know, nuclear capacity around the 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:36.800 world has been essentially flat since Fukushima. This varies a 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.360 little bit, but if we're going to triple capacity in 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:42.240 the next say twenty five years twenty six years, we 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:45.200 really need to step on the gas and start developing things. 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:48.720 And the world is going to be characterized by different 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:52.520 technologies in different markets. In the East, where there's a 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:57.920 tremendous growth in demand for electricity, think China, India, Indonesia, Vietnam, 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:02.080 large reactors will probably fill role better than small reactors. 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.920 In the West where you have slower growth. Nevertheless, you 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:08.160 are having a lot of growth from the data centers 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:12.000 now projected, but they all the SMR technology would be 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:16.560 used preferably over large reactors for a variety of different reasons. 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:21.080 And in a market like the UK, UK is relying 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:24.480 on both large reactors. They're building Hinkley and they're planning 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:28.680 to build sizeball. But they'll also complement that with smaller reactors. 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:32.360 And the ideal thing about small reactors that they're more agile, 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:36.480 quicker to build, allegedly, less expensive to build, less risky 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:39.360 to build, and they sort of can replace the existing 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:42.800 coal infrastructure the country like the UK or Poland or 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:45.200 the US may have. So there's a little niche for 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:49.560 these SMRs to sort of replace coal and act as 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:53.520 a compliment to renewables. What's happening now, renewables is growing 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:57.400 like crazy, and as renewables grow, we need to add 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:01.280 natural gas capacity for the backup stand by a power 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:03.880 for when the wind is and blow or the sun 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:07.280 doesn't shine. We need to replace those natural guess capacity 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:11.120 with small SMRs that are agile enough to ramp up 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:15.120 to rapidly changing conditions and demand for electricity on the grid. 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:17.920 Now, I know it's been less than a year since 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:20.640 the last COP so these twenty five countries or so 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:24.320 haven't had a chance to actually really well build any 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:27.440 of these new projects. But does it look like what 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:30.000 are they making noises about potentially doing? Is it going 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:32.600 to be really varied all over the world? Are they 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:34.880 waiting for new technology? And you think they're going to 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:36.800 essentially say we're going to do this a little bit 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:39.640 closer to twenty fifty or some countries really getting started 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:40.120 right now. 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:44.480 Well, we've been tracking the development of SMRs and the 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:47.520 prognosis is not very very exciting as far as how 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:51.319 quickly they can be deployed. You know, there's twelve reactors 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:54.800 or ten reactors in the US that are undergoing pre 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:59.640 application feasibility studies or negotiations with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:03.280 and after they complete those pre application studies, the next 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:05.640 step will be for them to go ahead and formally 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:09.360 apply for an application to get a license to operate 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:12.920 and build a nuclear power plant. New Scale spent between 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:16.679 five hundred and six hundred million dollars to license its technology, 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:19.800 so it's a huge financial challenge and it takes a 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:22.880 very very long time, especially with some of these advanced 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:27.079 reactors which are atypical of what has come beforehand, which 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:30.720 is the light water boiling water reactors are pressurized water reactors. 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:34.000 So the NRC in the US and the Canadian authorities 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:37.320 and the authorities in the UK, you need to gear 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:41.040 up to understand the differences between the new types of 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:44.240 reactors that will be coming forward and respond accordingly. So 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:47.840 time is a problem, at cost is a problem, and 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:50.840 there's a lot of technological risks. We don't understand which 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.280 one of these reactors are going to be most sought 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:57.080 after by utility customers and by data centers and to 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:00.480 produce hydrogen. So there's a lot of opaque in the 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:03.600 market right now, and I'm hoping that that can clear 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:07.000 and we can make some decisions quickly and move forward 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:08.760 for the technology to deploy. 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:12.000 And when technology is kind of just getting started and 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:16.040 just getting momentum, those first companies that are doing it 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:18.800 really under a lot of scrutiny. And sometimes when things 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:21.200 don't go very well, they become a canary in the 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:23.680 coal mine, and other times they are just the fact 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:27.080 that businesses, maybe not every single one makes it along 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:30.040 this road to scale. So that then brings me to 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:33.120 New Scale. Can you talk a little bit about what 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:35.160 happened at New Scale and whether or not this is 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:38.160 something that is teaching lessons to other part of the 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:41.480 market or is it just isolated to that specific company. 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:46.040 So and your Scale is developing a seventy seven megawatt 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:50.040 reactor and they intend to bundle two four six of them, 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:54.120 possibly twelve of them together to fulfill the demand requirements 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:57.040 from their customer. And what their approach is is to 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:01.800 have these individual reactors sitting in a pool of water, 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:04.920 six story swimming pool if you can imagine, and that 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:09.000 requires a lot of physical concrete excavation of the ground 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:12.360 and whatever. So they tried to simplify the approach by 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:17.080 manufacturing these these reactors in an assembly line and to 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:21.080 produce them simply and get them across because the smaller 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:24.480 the reactor is, the broader the amount of companies that 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:28.240 can manufacture these technologies. But in doing so they also created, 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:32.000 you know, a law of unforeseen circumstances where there is 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.480 a problem now that you need to dig deep into 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:40.520 the ground to keep this reactor swimming pool. Into encase, 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:44.440 these these six to twelve reactors underground, and so you 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:47.880 now have an excavation course that some of the other 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:51.640 reactors do not have. So apparently the cost of doing 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:56.400 so in Idaho was prohibitive, and there were some unique 0:12:56.480 --> 0:13:01.360 circumstances that existed at Idaho where the site was proposed 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:04.600 that made them sort of raise the cost for building 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:09.240 producing the reactor. Secondly, the customer was UAMS. UAMS is 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:13.360 an association of fifty or so municipal utilities, and they 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:18.079 didn't have any historic experience operating nuclear power plants. It 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:20.720 would have been much easier had you had a Duke 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:24.720 Energy or a Southern Company or Dominion, which are large 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:28.160 nuclear operators in the US. They could have better understand 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:31.280 some of the challenges that would have existed in building 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:33.800 a first of a kind reactor in a remote place. 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:36.680 And so the customer was perhaps ill prepared for the 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:40.720 complexities of building and operating a nuclear power plant, and 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:43.240 they threw a lot of money the Department of Energy, 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:45.720 and there was nobody else around the town. New Scale 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:49.360 was the only company that has gotten an NRC license 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:52.200 to date, and so we were hoping that this would 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:54.520 be leading the way and that they would have some 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:57.840 sort of success in developing that. So a combination of 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:02.000 technology that perhaps was not really thought out as well 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:04.640 as that should have been for that particular location, a 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:07.880 customer that didn't have the expertise that some of the 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:11.280 other larger utilities could have provided and could have foreseen 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:13.840 some of the issues and cut them off at the pass. 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:17.040 And the fact that you had one company going forward 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.840 that had a lot of US government support, and perhaps 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:23.760 there were some questions and issues over there. The New 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:28.040 Scale technology represents an incremental move forward. The innovation was 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:30.840 a shrinkage in size, and it did not provide some 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:34.040 of the other advantages that say, a fast reactor or 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:38.080 a high temperature gas reactor would have provided. And it 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:40.720 turned out to be more complicated and more expensive than 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:42.760 people had anticipated. 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:45.600 But not wholly uncommon when we think about new technology 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:47.400 of any kind. And I know you know the stakes 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:50.040 are high with nuclear, but when you're thinking about implementing 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:54.320 new technology, there are going to be some implementation hiccups. 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:57.280 Do you think that this, because the stakes are so high, 0:14:57.360 --> 0:14:59.800 is going to cause problems for the wider industry for 0:14:59.880 --> 0:15:03.480 us or will it just be that this particular thing 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:06.200 has been difficult and maybe the next one will be 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:06.880 less difficult. 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:10.520 Well, we asked New Scale those questions, and they were 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:14.120 very quick to point out that the site characteristics and 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:17.840 the individual circumstances of the Carbon Free project, which was 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:20.920 the name of the project, were unique. And New Scale 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:25.520 has been pretty aggressive and developing other data center applications 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:29.640 forwards technology, and some of the competitors to New Scale 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:32.520 a whole tech or a terror power or whatever. They 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:36.080 are all very quick to distinguish the differences between their 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.560 approach and their technology and what went wrong at the 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:43.040 Carbon Free project. So there's hope that there will be 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:46.600 additional pathways or new pathways that these other companies can 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:49.760 run down and succeed. And I hope that's the case. 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:53.200 So let's talk a second about enriched uranium and what's 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:55.760 been happening on that side. Last time we had you 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:57.960 on this show, I asked you whether or not there 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.160 was enough uranium in the world for are current and 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:04.640 future nuclear plans, and there was a resounding yes. But 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:08.920 from the enrichment side, we've actually seen enriched uranium fluctuating 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:11.480 prices this year. We've seen prices go up. Can you 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:15.160 talk a little bit about what has caused that and 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:18.120 really what's going to happen on the price side when 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:19.480 it comes to enriched uranium. 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:24.000 Okay, so from the price of uranium, uranium is traded 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:27.640 in the form of yellowcake U three eight, and there 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:32.480 is uranium is traded in the spot market, which utilities 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:35.360 and minors can sort of negotiate sell on a short 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:39.120 term basis. But what's really really important is the term market. 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:43.120 The term market is long term pricing contracts because utilities 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:46.680 understand that what's really important is not so much the 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:49.720 price of the uranium, but the availability of the uranium. 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:54.360 Nuclear utility does not want to not have uranium to operate, 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:56.920 so it's must of concern for the price than it 0:16:57.040 --> 0:17:00.800 is for the availability. Availability is very, very important, and 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:04.640 we've seen the price of uranium double in twenty twenty three, 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:07.480 and there has been a set of hive around one 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.960 hundred and six earlier this year, sometime in February. It's 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:13.960 retreated a little bit about out since then, but there's 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:16.440 been in the news a lot because of the fact 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:20.200 that enriched uranium. Uranium comes out of the ground at 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:23.840 points zero seven percent uranium two thirty five, which is 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:27.720 the fissile part of the atom, which is unstable, as 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:31.320 opposed to uranium two thirty eight, which is the more 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:35.560 stable fertile part of the atom. And so you enriched 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:40.920 the natural uranium from points zero seven percent in its 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:44.199 natural state up to four and a half percent for 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:47.960 suitable use for a nuclear power plant. If you are 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:50.760 having an advanced reactor, you'll want to go ahead and 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:53.520 push that uranium up to say nineteen and a half 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:57.200 twenty percent or somewhere in between, and that's called HALU. 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:02.000 Highest say low enriched uranium and I say loan rich uranium. 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:05.080 The only commercial source for that in the world these 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:08.760 days are the Russians, and it's a very expensive process. 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:10.720 You just don't all of a sudden decide well, I 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:14.200 want to go ahead increase my uranium levels enrichment levels 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:17.439 from four and a half percent up to twenty percent, 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:19.879 because you have to go through a lot of regulatory 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:22.760 and licensing steps in order to do that. So it's 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:26.640 pretty expensive proposition. And also another problem is that there's 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:30.600 an uncertainty of demand. You have ten to twelve companies 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.240 in the US, as an example, that are going through 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:36.960 the licensing process or discussions with the NRC. We're not 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:39.640 sure how many of them will go through and whether 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:42.640 or not those companies that do go through the process 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:46.800 will actually deliver a commercial product that will have a 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.600 demand for uranium. So it's like a chicken and egg 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:52.919 situation as far as HALU demand is concerned. Now, the 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:55.000 US government has stepped in and made a lot of 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:59.480 incentives recently to sort of support a domestic uranium industry 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:04.240 laws left and right. Most recently earlier this week, there's 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.280 executive order from the President of Biden that he's going 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:10.760 to try to support large reactors, which I think is 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:14.240 a surprising development. He's also going to support the deployment 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:17.760 of advanced reactors on military basis, and he's also providing 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:20.679 a lot of support to the uranium industry to create 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:24.920 and strengthen the uranium industry in the US. The uranium 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:26.720 we used to produce a lot of uranium in this 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:29.840 country and then for environmental reasons and for the fact 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:32.840 that nuclear fill out of favor in the wake of Fukushima, 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:35.320 you know, our production has gone down to next to nothing. 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:38.200 Now we're starting to produce more and more uranium. But 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:41.640 we have only one facility in the US that can 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:45.280 make highes say loan rich uranium, and that's Centrist and 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:48.600 that company is just gearing up and looking to try 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:52.040 to expand its operations and hopefully with support from the 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:55.480 US government, financing will flow to the construction of a 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:58.919 larger facility with which they'll be able to provide commercial 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:03.240 amounts of HALO for the US industry and other markets globally. 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:06.280 So if the Biden administration, during an election year, has 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:10.080 announced that they want to see more uranium enrichment and 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:13.480 more large nuclear plans. What I want to understand is 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:18.240 really what underlies that. Is it domestic security of energy 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:21.959 supply and invariably this is a country that exports natural gas, 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:24.040 or is it a big job creator? And are we 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:26.240 talking about jobs here something else that maybe I'm not 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:27.240 getting well. 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:30.040 Jobs has been one of the big highlights of the 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:33.639 nuclear power industry. One of the reasons that I believe 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:36.320 that they went forward with the Hinckley project because it's 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:40.240 not an expensive electricity, but it was twenty five thousand jobs. 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:43.320 So the decision was made by politicians years ago to 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:46.439 build this facility because I'll put twenty five thousand people 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:50.119 to work and would produce a tremendous amount of electricity, 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:54.280 and it would be domestically produced electricity, carbon free electricity. 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:56.760 So there was a lot of reasons for going ahead 0:20:56.800 --> 0:21:00.640 with that decision, aside from producing the least expensive election electricity. 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:04.760 And so that's a big driver for nuclear power is 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:06.879 the fact that it keeps people at work, and it 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:11.080 provides energy security, and it's also carbon free, and it's 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:14.520 a good balance and a good complement to the increasing 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:18.639 amount of renewables that are being deployed. So I think people, 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:22.760 I think erroneously look at nuclear as a competitor to renewables. 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:26.679 I look at nuclear as a complement to renewables, and 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:29.480 that you have renewables as a preferred option, and you 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:33.480 have a complementary source that's baseload that's available twenty four 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:36.800 hours a day that can sort of complement and enable 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:40.679 the growth of carbon free energy, especially renewables. And we 0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:44.000 see data centers entering the picture right now. Data centers 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:46.760 have a requirement for twenty four to seven clean energy 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:49.840 and that can be best supplied with nuclear power. 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:54.840 So essentially the US's solution to enriched uranium is to 0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:55.720 do it domestically. 0:21:56.119 --> 0:22:01.320 Yes, there's Urinko is another supplier of enriched uranium. They 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:04.080 have operations in Europe and they have an operation in 0:22:04.119 --> 0:22:07.240 New Mexico. But I think that Russians we're providing a 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:10.359 pretty substantial chunk, about twenty seven percent of the enrich 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:13.199 uranium to the US, and that's something that needs to 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:16.000 be changed from a political perspective, and also it's a 0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:19.760 very very helpful, healthy thing for the US to go ahead, 0:22:19.920 --> 0:22:23.119 and because we are the largest market for uranium in 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:27.280 the world with ninety four reactors operating. The other closest 0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:31.080 country is France and China, which have you know, just 0:22:31.160 --> 0:22:32.200 over fifty. 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:35.800 You had mentioned twenty four to seven clean power, and 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:37.919 the question I have for you is can you give 0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:41.080 me some examples of where those projects are kind of 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:43.440 the companies that are looking at those sorts of projects 0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:46.480 And additionally, you know, are they including nuclear in this 0:22:46.840 --> 0:22:49.400 or when they're seeing twenty four seven clean power, they 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:51.800