WEBVTT - Escaping a Cult with Bethany Joy Lenz 0:00:00.840 --> 0:00:02.200 Hi Catherine, Hi Chelsea. 0:00:02.279 --> 0:00:02.680 How are you? 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:05.880 Readings from Whistler, Canada, my new home for the next 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:07.000 three weeks. 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:10.360 I'm so pleased for you. You're always happier when you're chilly. Yes, 0:00:10.400 --> 0:00:12.840 I am. I needed a real fucking break this year, 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:13.680 real break. 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:16.000 I needed to take my own advice, read my own book, 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:17.840 and then reread Letting Go. 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:20.800 I need lots of help, so I am now decompressing. 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:23.360 Amazing is your new book? Is it like a little 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:25.000 bit advice based as well or more personal? 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:28.080 St It's pretty much how to be optimistic in the dark, 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:32.440 how to inject yourself with positivity and optimism. 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:34.480 And I have lost. 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:37.720 My way with positivity and optimism, so I really need 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:38.680 to reread it. 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:40.840 It does happen sometimes where you like need a little 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:42.080 bit of a reset. 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:43.760 Yeah, absolutely absolutely. 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:45.720 My schedule for the last two months has just been 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:48.479 was just insane. Why and the travel and the shows, 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:51.199 and then the my house never being done, and then 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:54.040 the podcasts. You know, we're kind I've been running her ragon. 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:56.600 They decide to it's your fault. They decide to do 0:00:56.680 --> 0:01:00.480 construction when I'm recording. You know, I'm gone fifty days 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:02.520 a fucking month. It feels like, and then the one 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:04.080 day they're doing stuff is when I'm home. 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:05.440 So it has just. 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:10.120 Been Yeah, nobody seems to understand how to manage a schedule, 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:11.240 including myself. 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:13.520 Just twenty different groups all pulling you in different. 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:14.360 Directs, right right, right. 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:16.120 I mean, I'm grateful for the work, but it's hard 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:17.960 to be grateful when you're so fucking tired, and then 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:20.160 you start pitching, and then you start getting negative and 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:22.320 all of that stuff, and then you go RecA I 0:01:22.400 --> 0:01:25.800 am recharging as we speak. I'm plugged into a recharger. 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:28.839 It's in my butt, by the way, speaking of recharging. 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:32.720 My two last shows of the year in America, well 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:35.480 until further notice, because I don't know that I'm going 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:37.840 to be touring next year. So I have a show 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:43.280 in New Orleans on December twenty eighth, and on December 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:46.240 twenty ninth, I'm in Atlanta, Georgia, So get your tickets 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:48.280 at Chelseahandler dot com. You can also find out where 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:50.840 I'll be doing live book events next year, for I'll 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:53.240 have What She's Having, which comes out February twenty fifth. 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:56.280 That's on my website too, where I'll be signing books, 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:58.240 talking taking pictures all of that stuff. 0:01:58.360 --> 0:01:58.720 Awesome. 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:00.880 Yeah, And just to clarify, since we promised we would 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:03.280 last week, that's where you can get your signed copies 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:05.400 of the book. And you can also get them at 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:06.720 books a million in Barns and Noble. 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:08.800 Right, yes, yes, I signed lots of books for books 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:10.840 a million of Barnes and Noble. So many books. My 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:14.280 back went out. I aalira happy there are boxes. 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:15.680 Yeah. Yeah. 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:18.760 The day of Thanksgiving, my sister was cooking a turkey 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:21.160 in the kitchen, even though I can't tell her she 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:23.519 can't cook and why does she keep trying? And I 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:26.720 sat there for five hours and signed books and I 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:29.760 made like a dent in the I was like, oh, 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:31.480 I didn't realize how many books. 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:32.240 Ten thousand books. 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:36.960 I didn't realize that that's just almost it's almost a bond. 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:41.080 With my lifestyle. Who are we introducing. 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:44.360 We are introducing Bethany Joy Lens. 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:47.280 This was a good interview and a great book. Okay, 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:49.840 So our guest today is an actress, singer, songwriter and 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:53.120 co host of the One Tree Hill Rewatch podcast drama Queens. 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:56.320 Her new memoir, Dinner for Vampires is out now. Please 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:59.799 welcome Bethany Joy Lens Hi NOI. 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:04.200 Hi, oh hello, Hi, How are you great? 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:05.320 How are you girls? 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:07.960 I'm just so happy you're cult free? 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:09.560 Me too, Mama. 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:12.920 Oh my god, that book. Oh my god. 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:17.360 I have never really ever been interested in colts, So 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.000 I don't I haven't watched all of these shows that 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:23.440 everyone has watched in all of these docuseries or whatever 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:26.560 they are, and I've never really read about a cult. 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:28.400 This is my first reading about a cult. 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:34.720 Really, yeah, and it was pretty stunning. I guess I 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:38.720 want to ask you now that you're out of it 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:40.640 for how many years have you been out of it? Five? 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:41.240 Oh? 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:43.400 No, longer about thirteen? 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:44.000 Oh? 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:45.640 Oh wow, twelve thirteen? 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:48.320 Yeah? Oh okay, So now you have some real perspective. 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:51.640 Yeah, okay, Yeah, that's I think that's what made it 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:54.040 okay for me to write the book without feeling like 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:55.920 I was going to fall apart every day, because there's 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:58.600 I have a certain measure of objectivity about it now, 0:03:58.960 --> 0:03:59.600 I think. 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:02.800 Wow, okay, So I'm curious to see before we get 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:05.920 into all the details or whatever we decide to talk about, 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:08.720 what do you think now when you think about why 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:13.040 you were susceptible in the first place to being commandeered 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:15.080 in that way and falling into that. 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:16.720 What do you think it was. 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:19.680 I think it was a longing for attachment, which is 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:22.000 a pretty human need. I think it's the same thing 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:26.080 that draws anyone into any kind of abusive situation, whether 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:28.840 it's a workplace environment that you just can't seem to leave, 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:33.080 or a toxic relationship, or staying in a family environment, 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:36.800 a biological family environment that's just super toxic and abusive. 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:39.960 There's this sense of a need for attachment that we 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:44.320 all have. And I was twenty years old. It's so 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:47.640 different now, having so much mileage in my life that 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:51.279 I feel like my radar is so much better. But 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:53.640 back then I was twenty, It's like, what did I know. 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:57.520 I was taught to respect authority. I was taught to 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:02.599 believe your elders and believe people who seem like they 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:05.440 have your best interests at heart. And I wanted a family. 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:09.279 Yeah, yeah, you wanted a family. That's true. 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:11.719 Like I could see that, and you can see that 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:15.560 in the book because there were so many hints, like 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:18.480 even the first time you met Less, the cult leader, 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:21.160 when you met him, you were grossed out, like itcked 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:24.440 out by him initially right, and then so like, there 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:27.240 were so many instances that you write about in the 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:30.400 book from the beginning of meeting this like kind of 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:34.200 seemingly harmless group of people and all being kind of 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:37.200 involved in religion and Christianity and wanting to spend time 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:40.159 together in your own kind of like prayer group or 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:44.040 spirituality group or however you know we can frame it. 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:47.279 There were all these little signs along the way, but 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:51.440 you always kind of convinced yourself that it wasn't your 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:56.560 place to judge them or have an opinion about them, 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:58.960 and instead convinced yourself it was the right thing to 0:05:59.000 --> 0:05:59.880 do to stick with. 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:03.680 Isn't that amazing? Like the testament to the fact that 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:08.440 we all have this innate guttural knowledge like compass, where 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:13.200 we know, you know something's off, and we talk ourselves 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:15.920 out of things, into or out of things all the time, 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:18.480 even from a young age. I mean, I write about 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:21.240 in the book how my mom and dad when they 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.480 would be arguing. There were so many moments I'd walk 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:26.800 into the room or they would leave a room that 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:28.680 they had been arguing behind a closed door, and I'd 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:30.640 be like, what's wrong? And I was just met with 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:33.480 like everything's fine, No, nothing's wrong, And as a kid, 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:36.440 you just start to think, oh, I guess I guess 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:38.919 it's me, Like maybe I'm crazy. I guess I'm the 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:41.719 one that thinks everybody is being tense and there's nothing wrong. 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:44.520 So you really start to doubt your own gut and 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:47.520 your own instinct. And you do that enough, then people 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:49.360 can come in and take advantage of you if they 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:50.680 recognize that trait in you. 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:53.040 Yeah, I think that's going to be interesting to a 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:55.760 lot of callers and a lot of mothers listening to 0:06:55.800 --> 0:07:00.320 this conversation, because you basically got swept up in this 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:02.760 group of people and started to believe they were your 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:06.159 real family, as they convinced you that they were really 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.720 the only people that cared about you and that understood 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:12.800 you right. And any time your father or your mother 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:15.880 came on the scene, who were both concerned because they 0:07:15.880 --> 0:07:18.360 could see something was a little bit off, they were 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:22.320 met with silence or kind of like you know, they 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:26.480 were ignored or dismissed as not even really having a 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.280 valid place in your life anymore. And this went on 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:31.800 from when you were on One Tree Hill, which you 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:33.720 were filming for how many seasons. Were you on their 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:38.160 seven We did nine seasons, which was even doubt about 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:40.680 ten years. So ten years on that show, and the 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:43.400 whole time you were in this cult, the whole time 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:47.240 flying back and forth to Idaho from North Carolina, right 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:48.600 was North Carolina a. 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:51.480 Whole Yeah, from North Carolin. We were in Wilmington. Wilmington, 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:54.440 North Carolina, which is like one of the small, super 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:58.640 small beachy town that has no direct flights to the 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:01.960 West coast at all. I have to always take double flights. 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:04.360 It was exhausting. It was like eight to twelve hour 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:05.560 travel days every time. 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:08.440 And there was nothing glamorous about it at all. Like 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:10.760 when you described the house in Idaho the big house 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:13.640 in Idaho, because you met these people in La first, right, 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.200 and then they had this other house in Idaho, which 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:19.280 was already there was a lot of not normal behavior 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:21.480 around that, like it was someone else's house that they 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:24.200 kind of commandeered. And then all of you guys, kind 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:27.480 of all these vagabonds for lack of a better word, 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:30.480 people who were a little bit lost, kind of like yourself, 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:33.440 would move into this house and kind of created this family. 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:36.160 And then over the course of the time you were there, 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:40.480 they basically embezzled over two million dollars from. 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:43.480 You, right, Yes, that is true. 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:46.720 And you got married and had a baby within the cults. 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:50.520 I'm just so glad that you're free. I'm so happy 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:52.280 for you. That is incredible. 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:55.280 That's all that matters, right, is that you're out of 0:08:55.280 --> 0:08:55.960 that situation. 0:08:56.800 --> 0:09:00.080 Yes, and I look at it bizarrely. I mean, I 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:02.280 know it might sound kind of strange, but I do 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:04.200 look at it as a blessing. I mean, I think 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.000 we all deal with crazy shit in our lives and 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:08.880 when one way or another, if it's not one thing, 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:13.120 it's something else. Mine falls under a category that in 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:17.240 our culture right now is deemed really strange and weird 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:20.120 and crazy. But my aim with this book is to 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:23.480 show how what a slow burn it is, and how 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:26.760 even though the narcissistic abuse was in a group format, 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.480 for what I experienced, the top notes are all the 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:32.839 same in any kind of abusive relationship across the board. 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:35.040 And that's what I want people to take away, that, like, 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:37.240 you don't have to have been in a cult in 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:41.800 order to deeply relate to the sense of being gas 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:46.120 lit and love bombed and coerced and taken advantage of 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:49.400 and yes, to your point, thank god, I'm out, Like 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:52.480 I'm so happy that I'm out, But I'm really I'm 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:55.160 grateful that I went through it because now I feel 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:57.640 like I've got something in my life that I can 0:09:58.120 --> 0:09:59.000 help other people with. 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:02.480 So are you coming into with being on this book 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:05.120 tour and now going public with this story because a 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:07.320 lot of people, your cast members were also They all 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:10.120 kind of suspected that you were involved with something that 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:12.600 wasn't really on the up and up, and you had 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:15.520 some close friends on the cast and some friends that 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:19.160 you missed an opportunity at that time to develop relationships 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:21.960 with because you were in such a kind of controlling environment. 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:23.920 So are people asking you? 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:26.120 Are there women and young women and men asking you 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:28.599 questions about whether or not they're in an abusive or 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:29.760 narcissistic dynamic? 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:33.720 Now I do get some of those. I get more 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:37.360 of people who say they know someone who's in an 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:40.360 abusive dynamic and they don't know what to do and 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:42.320 they don't know how to help them, And. 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:43.080 What do you say to that? 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:48.600 It's hard. It's hard, you, guys, because the very nature 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:51.720 of it is your identity, your whole construct of your 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:55.800 identity becomes tied up in the approval or the attachment 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:59.200 that you have with this person or these people. So 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:03.040 for some to say to you, hey, I think you're 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:06.960 in an abusive relationship, Hey I think you're in a cult, 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:11.920 or anything to that end is not just It's not 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:14.679 just information that you can objectively sit back and say, 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:16.080 let me take a look at this and see if 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:19.600 that's true. Your heart and soul and identity are already 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.440 bound up in it. So how could anybody say something 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:24.040 to you that's going to make you The stakes are 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:26.679 so high, you know. And I know for me at 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:29.920 that time, nobody could have said anything, and they tried. 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:32.079 There were people that tried. Nobody could have said anything 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:35.160 to me that would have convinced me of a different 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:38.720 reality than the one I was living in in my mind. 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:44.559 And so long winded answer to your question, what I 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:49.720 try and advise people is be a friend. If you 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:55.640 can manage to maintain a friendship of honesty, where the 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:58.840 person trusts you and values you. You know, there's a little 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:01.360 bit of pushback, but not too much. Don't give them 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:03.240 too much pushback because then they might just cut you 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:04.920 out of their life. If you become this sort of 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.520 like suppressive person or whatever the version of that. 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:10.200 Is, which also I just sorry, I want to interrupt you, 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:12.360 because that's the very important thing you say in the book. 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:15.719 Is the first sign that you are in something that 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:21.440 is not cool or you're being coerced is when anyone 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:24.120 who's not part of that group becomes someone you're not. 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:28.160 Allowed to talk to. Right, Like I forget the word. 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:32.480 They use in scientology, like suppressive personality, but like anyone 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:34.360 who doesn't agree with that, if you're not allowed to 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:36.640 talk to certain people because they don't subscribe to your 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:40.120 religion or your spirituality, then that is a big red 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:43.040 flag anyone who tries to cut you off from other people. 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:46.880 And what you're saying is it's so accurate. And also 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:52.440 think about it doesn't necessarily come out from the abuser 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:56.520 as the words you're not allowed. In my case, it 0:12:56.559 --> 0:13:01.120 came out as much more condescending, much more like it's 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:05.360 masked as kindness in a way, like that person is 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:09.360 not maybe not safe for you, guard your heart, look 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.400 out for yourself, look out for them too. You don't 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:14.640 want to be talking to them about spiritual concepts that 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.920 they can't understand. That's going to set up a representation 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:22.959 of Christ for them. That's too confusing. So keep you 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:26.000 know the language. You really have to pay attention not 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:28.120 just to what someone is saying, but what they're doing. 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:31.959 And if the byproduct of what's being said is isolation, 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:34.960 that's you have to pay attention to that, because it's 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:37.920 not going to come out as obvious. If the person 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:40.960 is a real narcissist, if they're good at their job, 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:46.120 if they're controlling you, it's going to come out much 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:46.760 more veiled. 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:51.640 Do you think that Christianity, like your childhood Christianity, had 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:53.040 any factor in this? 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.600 Sure? Oh yeah, it was massive. I mean, as for 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.599 anyone out there who has not read Dinner for Vampires. 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:05.479 I grew up in a charismatic evangelical church, non denominational, 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:09.760 not super political or anything. It wasn't extreme in that 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:13.520 way it was it was just very loose, like there 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:17.880 was no when it's non denominational, there's no system or 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:21.080 structure that you have that the pastor has accountability to. 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:23.640 They kind of can say whatever they want and maybe 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:27.040 there's elders in the church, but it's not part of 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:29.680 like if you're Presbyterian, you're part of the presbytery, and 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:33.600 there's this like long overarching community of leaders and people 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:37.400 who've been holding on to hundreds of years of theology 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:40.120 and things like that. So there's this like accountability that 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:43.000 comes with a lot of denominations. So non denominational is 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:45.680 what I grew up in, which also made me a 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:48.440 lot more comfortable to be in an environment where some 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:51.520 guy comes in says whatever he wants and I'm like, well, 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:55.000 you're a pastor, so I guess I can believe you too, 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:59.960 with no accountability. But I do think that I mean, 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:02.200 it's actually I feel like it's kind of a miracle 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:06.680 that I still have managed to have a relationship with 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:11.760 God and with christ. I really hesitate to use the 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:14.040 word Christian because of what it means, especially in this 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:18.360 country right now, but that relationship is still exists for me, 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:21.120 but in a much more authentic way because I think 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:23.120 what I was taught, I know what I was taught 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:27.680 when I was young was very much Here are the 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:29.240 things you need to do. Here are the rules you 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:32.400 need to follow in order to have the kind of 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:34.800 life that God wants you to have. In order to 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:37.600 get the life that you want to get, God to 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:39.400 give you the life that you want. You just need 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:41.680 to follow all these rules and then you'll be happy. 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:46.880 Turns out that's not so true. Turns out bad things 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:48.680 happen to people who are following all the rules too. 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:51.080 No, I would have been so jypped. I would have 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:52.080 felt so jypped. 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:55.920 You were bleeding God's life and then God did that, 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:57.920 Like I would be so fucking pissed. 0:15:58.280 --> 0:15:58.880 Yeah, I was. 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:01.320 Because in the beginning of. 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:03.360 The book, like when you're kind of not on the 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:05.800 fence about joining this group of people because they kind 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:08.960 of wind and dined you, so to speak. You talk 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:13.000 about a moment where you're asking you're silently sitting there alone, 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:15.840 trying to feel God's presence and giving you guidance and 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:18.600 what to do. And in that moment you talk about 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:21.960 feeling it and that was this signal that you needed 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.720 to actually get more involved or I think it was. 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:26.320 Was it to get more involved in the group, where 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:28.160 maybe it was to give up a job. No, No, 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:29.680 it was to get more involved in the group. 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:32.200 Right, which moment are you talking about? I'm trying to 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:33.880 I might have missed something. You said. 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:36.000 There's two moments. I'll tell you about your own book. 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:36.560 Let me tell. 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:40.920 You, there's one moment where you're at the beginning of 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:43.440 becoming very involved with this group of people at the beginning, 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:46.480 and you were like waiting to hear God's voice, and 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:48.720 God's like, I'm here with you, you know, kind of 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:54.920 like almost a confirmation of maybe you were hesitant or wavering. 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:57.680 So tell us about that moment when you felt God's 0:16:57.800 --> 0:16:58.760 energy in that moment. 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:02.520 Yes, okay, this is one of my favorite moments in life. 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:05.720 And I really didn't tell very many I mean maybe 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:07.800 like three people in my life. I've ever told about 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:11.639 this before I wrote this book because I know it 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:15.359 kind of sounds crazy. So anyway, I well it's all 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:15.840 out there now. 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:17.080 It's not as crazy as you call. 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:19.359 So. 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:22.399 Yeah, I'm nineteen years old, I'm living in New York. 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:25.240 I'm happy. I've got a great life, i got a 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:29.399 great job. There's really no problem. And I'm sitting in 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:35.320 this cafe on a rainy Tuesday or whatever, and I 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:39.280 look out and I'm thinking to myself, huh, you know what, 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:42.439 you know, it would be weird if all this Christianity stuff, 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:44.600 like all this Jesus stuff that I grew up with, 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:48.520 if that was all just made up in somebody's imagination 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:50.960 and a bunch of people believe it and it's just 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:53.000 not true. And then I was like, oh, well, I 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:55.040 mean it's working for me, like my life is happy, 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:56.879 I'm doing well, like I guess I'll find out when 0:17:56.920 --> 0:18:00.000 I die, and really just kind of moved on from it. 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:05.480 I didn't think much more beyond that, and I write 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:07.040 about it more in detail in the book of Really 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:12.000 What It felt like. But I felt like it was 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:14.040 like I was in a slow motion movie, like every 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:17.600 molecule in my body just went to the perfect temperature. 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:21.239 Everything got really still and quiet, and I felt the 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:23.960 physical presence of a body sit next to me in 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:26.480 this booth that I was in at this empty cafe, 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:30.280 and obviously there was no one there. And I heard 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:33.200 a voice, like an audible voice, very close to my ear, 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:36.280 and it said, never doubt that. 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:36.960 I am real. 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:41.760 And then it went away, and I remember, like immediately, 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:43.240 you know, tears in my eyes, and I was like 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:46.480 desperately trying to remember the sound of the voice, and 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:49.159 it just was gone, like everything was just gone instantly. 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:53.439 And I was confused by it for years because I 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:56.760 thought of all the time I've all the times in 0:18:56.800 --> 0:19:00.920 my life I've been in pain and anguish in my knees, like, God, 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:03.679 where are you? Give me a sign? Tell me something? 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:05.760 What should I do? What choice should I make? How 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:09.240 do I feel better from this or that? Nothing? And 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:12.320 I would feel like radio silence. Why in the world 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:16.320 would God have bothered to come and let me know 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:19.800 that I was I was seen, not just like some 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:25.000 random universal feel like this thing that loves me, whatever 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:27.399 love means, and that sort of like vast context, but 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:30.560 like a very intentional personal joy. I see you, I 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:34.240