Speaker 1: Hi Catherine, Hi Chelsea.
Speaker 2: How are you?
Speaker 3: Readings from Whistler, Canada, my new home for the next
Speaker 3: three weeks.
Speaker 1: I'm so pleased for you. You're always happier when you're chilly. Yes,
Speaker 1: I am. I needed a real fucking break this year,
Speaker 1: real break.
Speaker 3: I needed to take my own advice, read my own book,
Speaker 3: and then reread Letting Go.
Speaker 1: I need lots of help, so I am now decompressing.
Speaker 4: Amazing is your new book? Is it like a little
Speaker 4: bit advice based as well or more personal?
Speaker 3: St It's pretty much how to be optimistic in the dark,
Speaker 3: how to inject yourself with positivity and optimism.
Speaker 1: And I have lost.
Speaker 3: My way with positivity and optimism, so I really need
Speaker 3: to reread it.
Speaker 4: It does happen sometimes where you like need a little
Speaker 4: bit of a reset.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 3: My schedule for the last two months has just been
Speaker 3: was just insane. Why and the travel and the shows,
Speaker 3: and then the my house never being done, and then
Speaker 3: the podcasts. You know, we're kind I've been running her ragon.
Speaker 3: They decide to it's your fault. They decide to do
Speaker 3: construction when I'm recording. You know, I'm gone fifty days
Speaker 3: a fucking month. It feels like, and then the one
Speaker 3: day they're doing stuff is when I'm home.
Speaker 1: So it has just.
Speaker 3: Been Yeah, nobody seems to understand how to manage a schedule,
Speaker 3: including myself.
Speaker 4: Just twenty different groups all pulling you in different.
Speaker 1: Directs, right right, right.
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm grateful for the work, but it's hard
Speaker 3: to be grateful when you're so fucking tired, and then
Speaker 3: you start pitching, and then you start getting negative and
Speaker 3: all of that stuff, and then you go RecA I
Speaker 3: am recharging as we speak. I'm plugged into a recharger.
Speaker 3: It's in my butt, by the way, speaking of recharging.
Speaker 3: My two last shows of the year in America, well
Speaker 3: until further notice, because I don't know that I'm going
Speaker 3: to be touring next year. So I have a show
Speaker 3: in New Orleans on December twenty eighth, and on December
Speaker 3: twenty ninth, I'm in Atlanta, Georgia, So get your tickets
Speaker 3: at Chelseahandler dot com. You can also find out where
Speaker 3: I'll be doing live book events next year, for I'll
Speaker 3: have What She's Having, which comes out February twenty fifth.
Speaker 3: That's on my website too, where I'll be signing books,
Speaker 3: talking taking pictures all of that stuff.
Speaker 1: Awesome.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And just to clarify, since we promised we would
Speaker 4: last week, that's where you can get your signed copies
Speaker 4: of the book. And you can also get them at
Speaker 4: books a million in Barns and Noble.
Speaker 3: Right, yes, yes, I signed lots of books for books
Speaker 3: a million of Barnes and Noble. So many books. My
Speaker 3: back went out. I aalira happy there are boxes.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3: The day of Thanksgiving, my sister was cooking a turkey
Speaker 3: in the kitchen, even though I can't tell her she
Speaker 3: can't cook and why does she keep trying? And I
Speaker 3: sat there for five hours and signed books and I
Speaker 3: made like a dent in the I was like, oh,
Speaker 3: I didn't realize how many books.
Speaker 1: Ten thousand books.
Speaker 3: I didn't realize that that's just almost it's almost a bond.
Speaker 1: With my lifestyle. Who are we introducing.
Speaker 4: We are introducing Bethany Joy Lens.
Speaker 3: This was a good interview and a great book. Okay,
Speaker 3: So our guest today is an actress, singer, songwriter and
Speaker 3: co host of the One Tree Hill Rewatch podcast drama Queens.
Speaker 3: Her new memoir, Dinner for Vampires is out now. Please
Speaker 3: welcome Bethany Joy Lens Hi NOI.
Speaker 1: Hi, oh hello, Hi, How are you great?
Speaker 2: How are you girls?
Speaker 1: I'm just so happy you're cult free?
Speaker 2: Me too, Mama.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that book. Oh my god.
Speaker 3: I have never really ever been interested in colts, So
Speaker 3: I don't I haven't watched all of these shows that
Speaker 3: everyone has watched in all of these docuseries or whatever
Speaker 3: they are, and I've never really read about a cult.
Speaker 1: This is my first reading about a cult.
Speaker 3: Really, yeah, and it was pretty stunning. I guess I
Speaker 3: want to ask you now that you're out of it
Speaker 3: for how many years have you been out of it? Five?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 2: No, longer about thirteen?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 2: Oh wow, twelve thirteen?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Oh okay, So now you have some real perspective.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Yeah, that's I think that's what made it
Speaker 2: okay for me to write the book without feeling like
Speaker 2: I was going to fall apart every day, because there's
Speaker 2: I have a certain measure of objectivity about it now,
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 3: Wow, okay, So I'm curious to see before we get
Speaker 3: into all the details or whatever we decide to talk about,
Speaker 3: what do you think now when you think about why
Speaker 3: you were susceptible in the first place to being commandeered
Speaker 3: in that way and falling into that.
Speaker 1: What do you think it was.
Speaker 2: I think it was a longing for attachment, which is
Speaker 2: a pretty human need. I think it's the same thing
Speaker 2: that draws anyone into any kind of abusive situation, whether
Speaker 2: it's a workplace environment that you just can't seem to leave,
Speaker 2: or a toxic relationship, or staying in a family environment,
Speaker 2: a biological family environment that's just super toxic and abusive.
Speaker 2: There's this sense of a need for attachment that we
Speaker 2: all have. And I was twenty years old. It's so
Speaker 2: different now, having so much mileage in my life that
Speaker 2: I feel like my radar is so much better. But
Speaker 2: back then I was twenty, It's like, what did I know.
Speaker 2: I was taught to respect authority. I was taught to
Speaker 2: believe your elders and believe people who seem like they
Speaker 2: have your best interests at heart. And I wanted a family.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you wanted a family. That's true.
Speaker 3: Like I could see that, and you can see that
Speaker 3: in the book because there were so many hints, like
Speaker 3: even the first time you met Less, the cult leader,
Speaker 3: when you met him, you were grossed out, like itcked
Speaker 3: out by him initially right, and then so like, there
Speaker 3: were so many instances that you write about in the
Speaker 3: book from the beginning of meeting this like kind of
Speaker 3: seemingly harmless group of people and all being kind of
Speaker 3: involved in religion and Christianity and wanting to spend time
Speaker 3: together in your own kind of like prayer group or
Speaker 3: spirituality group or however you know we can frame it.
Speaker 3: There were all these little signs along the way, but
Speaker 3: you always kind of convinced yourself that it wasn't your
Speaker 3: place to judge them or have an opinion about them,
Speaker 3: and instead convinced yourself it was the right thing to
Speaker 3: do to stick with.
Speaker 2: Isn't that amazing? Like the testament to the fact that
Speaker 2: we all have this innate guttural knowledge like compass, where
Speaker 2: we know, you know something's off, and we talk ourselves
Speaker 2: out of things, into or out of things all the time,
Speaker 2: even from a young age. I mean, I write about
Speaker 2: in the book how my mom and dad when they
Speaker 2: would be arguing. There were so many moments I'd walk
Speaker 2: into the room or they would leave a room that
Speaker 2: they had been arguing behind a closed door, and I'd
Speaker 2: be like, what's wrong? And I was just met with
Speaker 2: like everything's fine, No, nothing's wrong, And as a kid,
Speaker 2: you just start to think, oh, I guess I guess
Speaker 2: it's me, Like maybe I'm crazy. I guess I'm the
Speaker 2: one that thinks everybody is being tense and there's nothing wrong.
Speaker 2: So you really start to doubt your own gut and
Speaker 2: your own instinct. And you do that enough, then people
Speaker 2: can come in and take advantage of you if they
Speaker 2: recognize that trait in you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's going to be interesting to a
Speaker 3: lot of callers and a lot of mothers listening to
Speaker 3: this conversation, because you basically got swept up in this
Speaker 3: group of people and started to believe they were your
Speaker 3: real family, as they convinced you that they were really
Speaker 3: the only people that cared about you and that understood
Speaker 3: you right. And any time your father or your mother
Speaker 3: came on the scene, who were both concerned because they
Speaker 3: could see something was a little bit off, they were
Speaker 3: met with silence or kind of like you know, they
Speaker 3: were ignored or dismissed as not even really having a
Speaker 3: valid place in your life anymore. And this went on
Speaker 3: from when you were on One Tree Hill, which you
Speaker 3: were filming for how many seasons. Were you on their
Speaker 3: seven We did nine seasons, which was even doubt about
Speaker 3: ten years. So ten years on that show, and the
Speaker 3: whole time you were in this cult, the whole time
Speaker 3: flying back and forth to Idaho from North Carolina, right
Speaker 3: was North Carolina a.
Speaker 2: Whole Yeah, from North Carolin. We were in Wilmington. Wilmington,
Speaker 2: North Carolina, which is like one of the small, super
Speaker 2: small beachy town that has no direct flights to the
Speaker 2: West coast at all. I have to always take double flights.
Speaker 2: It was exhausting. It was like eight to twelve hour
Speaker 2: travel days every time.
Speaker 3: And there was nothing glamorous about it at all. Like
Speaker 3: when you described the house in Idaho the big house
Speaker 3: in Idaho, because you met these people in La first, right,
Speaker 3: and then they had this other house in Idaho, which
Speaker 3: was already there was a lot of not normal behavior
Speaker 3: around that, like it was someone else's house that they
Speaker 3: kind of commandeered. And then all of you guys, kind
Speaker 3: of all these vagabonds for lack of a better word,
Speaker 3: people who were a little bit lost, kind of like yourself,
Speaker 3: would move into this house and kind of created this family.
Speaker 3: And then over the course of the time you were there,
Speaker 3: they basically embezzled over two million dollars from.
Speaker 2: You, right, Yes, that is true.
Speaker 3: And you got married and had a baby within the cults.
Speaker 1: I'm just so glad that you're free. I'm so happy
Speaker 1: for you. That is incredible.
Speaker 3: That's all that matters, right, is that you're out of
Speaker 3: that situation.
Speaker 2: Yes, and I look at it bizarrely. I mean, I
Speaker 2: know it might sound kind of strange, but I do
Speaker 2: look at it as a blessing. I mean, I think
Speaker 2: we all deal with crazy shit in our lives and
Speaker 2: when one way or another, if it's not one thing,
Speaker 2: it's something else. Mine falls under a category that in
Speaker 2: our culture right now is deemed really strange and weird
Speaker 2: and crazy. But my aim with this book is to
Speaker 2: show how what a slow burn it is, and how
Speaker 2: even though the narcissistic abuse was in a group format,
Speaker 2: for what I experienced, the top notes are all the
Speaker 2: same in any kind of abusive relationship across the board.
Speaker 2: And that's what I want people to take away, that, like,
Speaker 2: you don't have to have been in a cult in
Speaker 2: order to deeply relate to the sense of being gas
Speaker 2: lit and love bombed and coerced and taken advantage of
Speaker 2: and yes, to your point, thank god, I'm out, Like
Speaker 2: I'm so happy that I'm out, But I'm really I'm
Speaker 2: grateful that I went through it because now I feel
Speaker 2: like I've got something in my life that I can
Speaker 2: help other people with.
Speaker 3: So are you coming into with being on this book
Speaker 3: tour and now going public with this story because a
Speaker 3: lot of people, your cast members were also They all
Speaker 3: kind of suspected that you were involved with something that
Speaker 3: wasn't really on the up and up, and you had
Speaker 3: some close friends on the cast and some friends that
Speaker 3: you missed an opportunity at that time to develop relationships
Speaker 3: with because you were in such a kind of controlling environment.
Speaker 1: So are people asking you?
Speaker 3: Are there women and young women and men asking you
Speaker 3: questions about whether or not they're in an abusive or
Speaker 3: narcissistic dynamic?
Speaker 2: Now I do get some of those. I get more
Speaker 2: of people who say they know someone who's in an
Speaker 2: abusive dynamic and they don't know what to do and
Speaker 2: they don't know how to help them, And.
Speaker 1: What do you say to that?
Speaker 2: It's hard. It's hard, you, guys, because the very nature
Speaker 2: of it is your identity, your whole construct of your
Speaker 2: identity becomes tied up in the approval or the attachment
Speaker 2: that you have with this person or these people. So
Speaker 2: for some to say to you, hey, I think you're
Speaker 2: in an abusive relationship, Hey I think you're in a cult,
Speaker 2: or anything to that end is not just It's not
Speaker 2: just information that you can objectively sit back and say,
Speaker 2: let me take a look at this and see if
Speaker 2: that's true. Your heart and soul and identity are already
Speaker 2: bound up in it. So how could anybody say something
Speaker 2: to you that's going to make you The stakes are
Speaker 2: so high, you know. And I know for me at
Speaker 2: that time, nobody could have said anything, and they tried.
Speaker 2: There were people that tried. Nobody could have said anything
Speaker 2: to me that would have convinced me of a different
Speaker 2: reality than the one I was living in in my mind.
Speaker 2: And so long winded answer to your question, what I
Speaker 2: try and advise people is be a friend. If you
Speaker 2: can manage to maintain a friendship of honesty, where the
Speaker 2: person trusts you and values you. You know, there's a little
Speaker 2: bit of pushback, but not too much. Don't give them
Speaker 2: too much pushback because then they might just cut you
Speaker 2: out of their life. If you become this sort of
Speaker 2: like suppressive person or whatever the version of that.
Speaker 3: Is, which also I just sorry, I want to interrupt you,
Speaker 3: because that's the very important thing you say in the book.
Speaker 3: Is the first sign that you are in something that
Speaker 3: is not cool or you're being coerced is when anyone
Speaker 3: who's not part of that group becomes someone you're not.
Speaker 1: Allowed to talk to. Right, Like I forget the word.
Speaker 3: They use in scientology, like suppressive personality, but like anyone
Speaker 3: who doesn't agree with that, if you're not allowed to
Speaker 3: talk to certain people because they don't subscribe to your
Speaker 3: religion or your spirituality, then that is a big red
Speaker 3: flag anyone who tries to cut you off from other people.
Speaker 2: And what you're saying is it's so accurate. And also
Speaker 2: think about it doesn't necessarily come out from the abuser
Speaker 2: as the words you're not allowed. In my case, it
Speaker 2: came out as much more condescending, much more like it's
Speaker 2: masked as kindness in a way, like that person is
Speaker 2: not maybe not safe for you, guard your heart, look
Speaker 2: out for yourself, look out for them too. You don't
Speaker 2: want to be talking to them about spiritual concepts that
Speaker 2: they can't understand. That's going to set up a representation
Speaker 2: of Christ for them. That's too confusing. So keep you
Speaker 2: know the language. You really have to pay attention not
Speaker 2: just to what someone is saying, but what they're doing.
Speaker 2: And if the byproduct of what's being said is isolation,
Speaker 2: that's you have to pay attention to that, because it's
Speaker 2: not going to come out as obvious. If the person
Speaker 2: is a real narcissist, if they're good at their job,
Speaker 2: if they're controlling you, it's going to come out much
Speaker 2: more veiled.
Speaker 3: Do you think that Christianity, like your childhood Christianity, had
Speaker 3: any factor in this?
Speaker 2: Sure? Oh yeah, it was massive. I mean, as for
Speaker 2: anyone out there who has not read Dinner for Vampires.
Speaker 2: I grew up in a charismatic evangelical church, non denominational,
Speaker 2: not super political or anything. It wasn't extreme in that
Speaker 2: way it was it was just very loose, like there
Speaker 2: was no when it's non denominational, there's no system or
Speaker 2: structure that you have that the pastor has accountability to.
Speaker 2: They kind of can say whatever they want and maybe
Speaker 2: there's elders in the church, but it's not part of
Speaker 2: like if you're Presbyterian, you're part of the presbytery, and
Speaker 2: there's this like long overarching community of leaders and people
Speaker 2: who've been holding on to hundreds of years of theology
Speaker 2: and things like that. So there's this like accountability that
Speaker 2: comes with a lot of denominations. So non denominational is
Speaker 2: what I grew up in, which also made me a
Speaker 2: lot more comfortable to be in an environment where some
Speaker 2: guy comes in says whatever he wants and I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: you're a pastor, so I guess I can believe you too,
Speaker 2: with no accountability. But I do think that I mean,
Speaker 2: it's actually I feel like it's kind of a miracle
Speaker 2: that I still have managed to have a relationship with
Speaker 2: God and with christ. I really hesitate to use the
Speaker 2: word Christian because of what it means, especially in this
Speaker 2: country right now, but that relationship is still exists for me,
Speaker 2: but in a much more authentic way because I think
Speaker 2: what I was taught, I know what I was taught
Speaker 2: when I was young was very much Here are the
Speaker 2: things you need to do. Here are the rules you
Speaker 2: need to follow in order to have the kind of
Speaker 2: life that God wants you to have. In order to
Speaker 2: get the life that you want to get, God to
Speaker 2: give you the life that you want. You just need
Speaker 2: to follow all these rules and then you'll be happy.
Speaker 2: Turns out that's not so true. Turns out bad things
Speaker 2: happen to people who are following all the rules too.
Speaker 1: No, I would have been so jypped. I would have
Speaker 1: felt so jypped.
Speaker 3: You were bleeding God's life and then God did that,
Speaker 3: Like I would be so fucking pissed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was.
Speaker 1: Because in the beginning of.
Speaker 3: The book, like when you're kind of not on the
Speaker 3: fence about joining this group of people because they kind
Speaker 3: of wind and dined you, so to speak. You talk
Speaker 3: about a moment where you're asking you're silently sitting there alone,
Speaker 3: trying to feel God's presence and giving you guidance and
Speaker 3: what to do. And in that moment you talk about
Speaker 3: feeling it and that was this signal that you needed
Speaker 3: to actually get more involved or I think it was.
Speaker 3: Was it to get more involved in the group, where
Speaker 3: maybe it was to give up a job. No, No,
Speaker 3: it was to get more involved in the group.
Speaker 2: Right, which moment are you talking about? I'm trying to
Speaker 2: I might have missed something. You said.
Speaker 1: There's two moments. I'll tell you about your own book.
Speaker 1: Let me tell.
Speaker 3: You, there's one moment where you're at the beginning of
Speaker 3: becoming very involved with this group of people at the beginning,
Speaker 3: and you were like waiting to hear God's voice, and
Speaker 3: God's like, I'm here with you, you know, kind of
Speaker 3: like almost a confirmation of maybe you were hesitant or wavering.
Speaker 3: So tell us about that moment when you felt God's
Speaker 3: energy in that moment.
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, this is one of my favorite moments in life.
Speaker 2: And I really didn't tell very many I mean maybe
Speaker 2: like three people in my life. I've ever told about
Speaker 2: this before I wrote this book because I know it
Speaker 2: kind of sounds crazy. So anyway, I well it's all
Speaker 2: out there now.
Speaker 1: It's not as crazy as you call.
Speaker 5: So.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm nineteen years old, I'm living in New York.
Speaker 2: I'm happy. I've got a great life, i got a
Speaker 2: great job. There's really no problem. And I'm sitting in
Speaker 2: this cafe on a rainy Tuesday or whatever, and I
Speaker 2: look out and I'm thinking to myself, huh, you know what,
Speaker 2: you know, it would be weird if all this Christianity stuff,
Speaker 2: like all this Jesus stuff that I grew up with,
Speaker 2: if that was all just made up in somebody's imagination
Speaker 2: and a bunch of people believe it and it's just
Speaker 2: not true. And then I was like, oh, well, I
Speaker 2: mean it's working for me, like my life is happy,
Speaker 2: I'm doing well, like I guess I'll find out when
Speaker 2: I die, and really just kind of moved on from it.
Speaker 2: I didn't think much more beyond that, and I write
Speaker 2: about it more in detail in the book of Really
Speaker 2: What It felt like. But I felt like it was
Speaker 2: like I was in a slow motion movie, like every
Speaker 2: molecule in my body just went to the perfect temperature.
Speaker 2: Everything got really still and quiet, and I felt the
Speaker 2: physical presence of a body sit next to me in
Speaker 2: this booth that I was in at this empty cafe,
Speaker 2: and obviously there was no one there. And I heard
Speaker 2: a voice, like an audible voice, very close to my ear,
Speaker 2: and it said, never doubt that.
Speaker 1: I am real.
Speaker 2: And then it went away, and I remember, like immediately,
Speaker 2: you know, tears in my eyes, and I was like
Speaker 2: desperately trying to remember the sound of the voice, and
Speaker 2: it just was gone, like everything was just gone instantly.
Speaker 2: And I was confused by it for years because I
Speaker 2: thought of all the time I've all the times in
Speaker 2: my life I've been in pain and anguish in my knees, like, God,
Speaker 2: where are you? Give me a sign? Tell me something?
Speaker 2: What should I do? What choice should I make? How
Speaker 2: do I feel better from this or that? Nothing? And
Speaker 2: I would feel like radio silence. Why in the world
Speaker 2: would God have bothered to come and let me know
Speaker 2: that I was I was seen, not just like some
Speaker 2: random universal feel like this thing that loves me, whatever
Speaker 2: love means, and that sort of like vast context, but
Speaker 2: like a very intentional personal joy. I see you, I
Speaker 2: hear you, I love you. I'm real. Why would you
Speaker 2: bother doing that in a moment that was completely insignificant
Speaker 2: where there was nothing at stake? And I didn't realize
Speaker 2: until all those years later, when I was in exactly
Speaker 2: the moment that you were talking about, Chelsea saying I
Speaker 2: was fucking pissed. I was jypped. I was like, I
Speaker 2: just devoted my whole life to you. I did all
Speaker 2: the right things, and this is what I get. Fuck you?
Speaker 2: And I really like, I literally just said that to God,
Speaker 2: fuck you, fuck you, I hate you. I'm so mad
Speaker 2: at you. How dare you? And it was like there
Speaker 2: was this big, cosmic sigh of relief, like thank you,
Speaker 2: thank you for finally being honest with me and stopping
Speaker 2: all of this pretending to be somebody that you're not.
Speaker 2: Can you just be real? And it all just dropped
Speaker 2: in and I felt like, oh my god, that's why,
Speaker 2: because I would have just abandoned God. I would have
Speaker 2: just walked away and said this God stuff is total
Speaker 2: nonsense and I don't want to have anything to do
Speaker 2: with it ever again. But I couldn't because I knew
Speaker 2: too much. Because I had one moment that I just
Speaker 2: could not explain when I was nineteen, and that's what
Speaker 2: kind of kept me in a space where I could
Speaker 2: still move forward with an authentic version of my fate
Speaker 2: and abandon all the rest of the garbage.
Speaker 1: Oh God, just this, It's just.
Speaker 3: People are going to eat this book up because of
Speaker 3: this first hand account of just what you went through
Speaker 3: and all of the like levels of pervasiveness that they
Speaker 3: had in your life. You had so many opportunities in
Speaker 3: your field, acting, singing, all of these opportunities that you had,
Speaker 3: and many of them you didn't pursue because of these
Speaker 3: cults and those cult leaders or the cult leader the
Speaker 3: main one less and they prohibited you from They wanted
Speaker 3: your money, but they didn't want you to be too
Speaker 3: exposed to other people that may have an influence on
Speaker 3: you and call out the fact that this was not
Speaker 3: on the up and up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was one of the craziest things to me.
Speaker 4: You think that these people who are motivated by like
Speaker 4: using you would want you to take more opportunities. But
Speaker 4: I think you're right. It's like keeping you away from
Speaker 4: people who might convince you like, hey, there's a bigger
Speaker 4: world out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I had been out on my own for
Speaker 2: so long, and like, I think they had to do
Speaker 2: more work with me because I had so much unusual
Speaker 2: backlog of life experience for someone my age of being independent,
Speaker 2: being on my own, being in all these different experiences
Speaker 2: and connecting deeply with groups of people and then fragmenting
Speaker 2: off and then getting involved in another group of people
Speaker 2: because that's what theater is. That's what you do for
Speaker 2: you know, your two months, your non stop with the
Speaker 2: same people, and every job you do, it's like that.
Speaker 2: So I think they think he and the Pam character
Speaker 2: the sort of mother of the group. I think they
Speaker 2: knew in some way that they were going to have
Speaker 2: to really work hard at convincing me how important it
Speaker 2: was to be a part of a family and make
Speaker 2: that my priority over work. And also I don't think
Speaker 2: Les wanted the group to really grow because I think
Speaker 2: he was kind of lazy and there's just so much
Speaker 2: work involved with so many.
Speaker 1: People drolling people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, that's got to be exhausting. So I
Speaker 2: think he just didn't want me to make too much
Speaker 2: money because if I'm out there in the world making
Speaker 2: too much money and converting too many people to be
Speaker 2: a part of our little family, then the liability goes up.
Speaker 3: So yeah, but those people are all on power trips,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. They want the power, They
Speaker 3: love the power, they love the control. So I don't
Speaker 3: even know if you can mitigate your desire for power
Speaker 3: when you're that much of a narcissist. But maybe because
Speaker 3: of you know, you bring up some legal aspects and
Speaker 3: you know, like you can't you're not technically accult unless
Speaker 3: you're like influencing or damaging more than seventies people's lives
Speaker 3: or something.
Speaker 1: I think you give us, Yeah, some stats at the end.
Speaker 3: In the state of Idaho, how does it work having
Speaker 3: a child with someone that you're now separated from in
Speaker 3: such a big.
Speaker 2: Way, Like, yeah, there are some unique challenges with that.
Speaker 2: It's something that I spent some real time considering how
Speaker 2: much I wanted to say about that in the book,
Speaker 2: because the truth is that they do still have a relationship,
Speaker 2: and so I don't want to I just don't want
Speaker 2: to interfere with that. And I don't know him anymore
Speaker 2: really really, so I can't say much about him.
Speaker 3: And so when you were able, when you did leave finally,
Speaker 3: were you scared for your safety?
Speaker 2: Definitely the first because you were.
Speaker 3: Living in the same state and you had your own
Speaker 3: house and they were trying to bully you and intimidate you.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, awful. I was scared because as I started
Speaker 2: to accept the fact that this was a cult, a
Speaker 2: high demand group. I mean, it took me a minute,
Speaker 2: like I really didn't want to admit that that's what
Speaker 2: I had been involved in. But once I started to
Speaker 2: admit that, then I was like, oh my god, I
Speaker 2: know what cults are.
Speaker 5: Like.
Speaker 2: I used to study scientology when I was in high
Speaker 2: school because I was fascinated by it irony. I didn't
Speaker 2: remember doing a paper on it once and there, and
Speaker 2: I was always kind of interested in the idea of
Speaker 2: a cult and how somebody could get sucked into that
Speaker 2: careful what you uh? What you what you was for
Speaker 2: for studies, I don't know anyway. I knew what the
Speaker 2: patterns looked like in a lot of these other groups,
Speaker 2: and I really felt this sense of maybe I don't
Speaker 2: know how deep this rabbit hole goes with this group,
Speaker 2: Like maybe I've only been shown what I've been shown,
Speaker 2: and there's so much more under the surface that I've
Speaker 2: never been a part of. I was living in North
Speaker 2: Carolina for nine months out of the year. There could
Speaker 2: have been all kinds of things going on that I
Speaker 2: didn't know about. And the buzzword of toxic masculinity could
Speaker 2: never have been more true in an environment like this.
Speaker 2: I mean these the sense of machismo and how important
Speaker 2: it was for the men in the group to feel
Speaker 2: like warriors. They had to be warring against something at
Speaker 2: all times, including the women in their life, if there
Speaker 2: was nothing else for them to fight against. So since
Speaker 2: I knew that their identity was wrapped up in needing
Speaker 2: to feel like they were fighting something, I knew they
Speaker 2: were going to come out after me. Because I was
Speaker 2: now the thing that they all needed to fight against.
Speaker 2: And it's I was really scared, I think for about
Speaker 2: a year until I saw enough consistent creepy, weird behavior,
Speaker 2: but nothing overly aggressive. It's not like the people. It's
Speaker 2: not like it was certainly wasn't like scientology where people
Speaker 2: get stalked in their home and they're you know, being
Speaker 2: threatened in things.
Speaker 3: And when you when you started like allowing them, like
Speaker 3: to be a co signer on your account, when you
Speaker 3: opened up like a joint bank account with the leader
Speaker 3: of this cult and you're basically signing your earnings away
Speaker 3: to him.
Speaker 2: What was with his son? So that was with the
Speaker 2: my husband at the time, because he so his I
Speaker 2: mean less it's kind of brilliant about not or oh
Speaker 2: god that just yes, I didn't still good in my mouth.
Speaker 2: He's he's very savvy about how to keep his name
Speaker 2: off of things, how to get people to give him
Speaker 2: what he wants, about having to put his name on it.
Speaker 3: I mean so yeah, So that joint bank account was
Speaker 3: with your ex husband who was his son? Yes, okay,
Speaker 3: So did you ever tell anyone in your real life
Speaker 3: that you did that or did you keep that a secret?
Speaker 2: I mean, my business manager, my former business manager who
Speaker 2: I was transferring the funds away from.
Speaker 1: And what did they say to you?
Speaker 2: We're like, Joe, I think this is a mistake, Like
Speaker 2: I really, these people are not qualified to take care
Speaker 2: of your money. They don't have the experience. Come a
Speaker 2: little worried about you. But they weren't my close friends.
Speaker 2: They were right people that I had hired, So what
Speaker 2: else would I expect them to do? Like they I
Speaker 2: think he even went on a limb out on a
Speaker 2: limb saying that much so and I felt it too.
Speaker 2: I'm just having this visceral memory of being in his
Speaker 2: office in New York too. I remember feeling it and
Speaker 2: feeling like he was right, and also knowing the day
Speaker 2: to day verbal and mental abuse that I was living
Speaker 2: in and how much relief I was going to get
Speaker 2: by moving this money because I just wouldn't be berated
Speaker 2: every day anymore about that.
Speaker 6: The pressure would be off of letting them control. You're exactly, yeah,
Speaker 6: I could. I could just let them handle it. And
Speaker 6: it was like, fine, if this will make you stop
Speaker 6: yelling at me every day, if this will make us
Speaker 6: stop fighting, then yes, go ahead. You be in charge
Speaker 6: of the money. You be in charge of the money, honey,
Speaker 6: and I will go to work.
Speaker 3: Because you don't talk about that a lot in the book,
Speaker 3: like there's obviously the control happening, but it didn't.
Speaker 1: I didn't get the impression that.
Speaker 3: You were being yelled at or berated on a daily basis.
Speaker 3: With your ex you kind of you talk about that,
Speaker 3: but with Less and Pam and Kurt and all those guys,
Speaker 3: it seemed much more manipulative rather than on the face
Speaker 3: rage or yeah right.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, I may not have been clear just now.
Speaker 2: What I meant was that the day to day that
Speaker 2: I was living with in my marriage, of the constant conflict.
Speaker 3: Controlling reading your scripts, being not allowing you to do
Speaker 3: scenes with men, not allowing you to rehearse with men,
Speaker 3: go out to dinner with any of your cast members,
Speaker 3: that were then right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and everything I wore, not even on the show,
Speaker 2: but in real life too, just every aspect of my
Speaker 2: life was under a microscope and controlled. And money was
Speaker 2: one of the one of the biggest topics that we
Speaker 2: would fight about all the time. And I was just like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I wanted to spend three hundred and fifty dollars at
Speaker 2: J Crew. It's not a big deal. Why is this
Speaker 2: a two hour conversation? And it became so much of
Speaker 2: that that I was like, there are so many other
Speaker 2: things that were fighting about all the time. If the
Speaker 2: money will alleviate a lot of this stress, then go
Speaker 2: ahead and be in charge of the money.
Speaker 3: So when you get out of a cult and you
Speaker 3: realize that they have drained your bank account, you had
Speaker 3: two hundred and twenty thousand dollars I think left at
Speaker 3: the end, and you realize there was two million missing.
Speaker 3: So that's one set of problems. You have a child,
Speaker 3: that's another issue. How does one move on? Like what
Speaker 3: kind of therapy did you go into when you left
Speaker 3: this cult?
Speaker 2: Multiple? Multiple, And even therapy was hard because I had
Speaker 2: just spent ten years in an environment where I was
Speaker 2: quote unquote going to therapy every week with my church leader,
Speaker 2: my group leader, both of them actually last and Pam
Speaker 2: couples therapy, individual therapy, group therapy in the basement like
Speaker 2: it was all and so even being able to trust
Speaker 2: a therapist walking into an office and not like it
Speaker 2: was real work to a let myself to trust someone
Speaker 2: that was a total stranger based on maybe a friend's
Speaker 2: reference or a diploma on the wall that was that
Speaker 2: was its own journey, and I did go through a
Speaker 2: few different therapists before I found somebody that I really
Speaker 2: just felt in my gut, and they probably all were trustworthy,
Speaker 2: but I finally did find someone that I really connected with.
Speaker 2: But it was so it was so difficult, and even
Speaker 2: paying for it was hard because I left with two
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty thousand dollars, but it all ended up
Speaker 2: going into my divorce and my rent. Within two years
Speaker 2: it was gone and I had I was upside down
Speaker 2: on my mortgage. We had to do a short sale,
Speaker 2: but there was another house that I had to take
Speaker 2: on debt for the retirement account got split and half
Speaker 2: like there was so much that I couldn't I couldn't
Speaker 2: pay rent. There were months when I didn't know how
Speaker 2: I was going to pay rent and I had to
Speaker 2: call my landlord and be like, can you wup me
Speaker 2: till next month? Is this going to be okay?
Speaker 1: Oh God?
Speaker 2: Which is just so crazy, or nine years on a
Speaker 2: series and it was really humbling. It was really really hard.
Speaker 2: But I feel like I learned so much about joy
Speaker 2: in the midst of suffering.
Speaker 3: Where did you find that joy? In the midst of suffering.
Speaker 3: When were those moments.
Speaker 2: Those moments were in They were in the little things.
Speaker 2: It was just a day to day. And it's one
Speaker 2: of the things where I say my faith has become
Speaker 2: the most authentic version of it for me, because rather
Speaker 2: than feeling like I was going to achieve some sense
Speaker 2: of peace by doing a bunch of things the right way,
Speaker 2: I got to just live in a place of abandon
Speaker 2: like I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm
Speaker 2: not gonna I refuse to allow this to make me
Speaker 2: more anxious, more stressed, more like more confined in my life.
Speaker 2: I've been confined for the last ten years and probably
Speaker 2: the ten before that growing are you joining before that?
Speaker 2: Growing up? So I don't want to live confined anymore.
Speaker 2: I want to be free. So how do I be
Speaker 2: free while I have all of these outside circumstances confining me?
Speaker 2: And it was really it was really interesting, the little
Speaker 2: moments were looking at the I actually just posted a
Speaker 2: poem about this today, a poem that I wrote. When
Speaker 2: we were living in Studio City, we had this little apartment.
Speaker 2: It was a house. It was like a two bedroom,
Speaker 2: little bungalow house on the corner behind the oyster bar,
Speaker 2: which was just a total I mean at the parking
Speaker 2: lot at two am, Like I remember, I would always
Speaker 2: scream up the window. Dane Cook was outside my window
Speaker 2: one time at the oyster Bar in the parking lot.
Speaker 2: I just knew that voice, and I was opening up
Speaker 2: my window, like, go home, home, and there's children sleeping.
Speaker 2: But we had They had a dumpster in their parking
Speaker 2: lot that they would leave the flap open all the
Speaker 2: time and it would hang over into my backyard lovely,
Speaker 2: and it used to make me so mad. I would
Speaker 2: go out there in the morning with a broomstick and
Speaker 2: shove that lit over and like, h my life and
Speaker 2: what these people did to me. And little by little
Speaker 2: we had a rose bush, and the rose bush started growing,
Speaker 2: and eventually it got so big and high that you
Speaker 2: couldn't see the dumpster lid when it came over. And
Speaker 2: that's how slow it grows. It wasn't an overnight thing.
Speaker 2: But I learned moment by moment how to just slow
Speaker 2: down and appreciate the things that I do have. I
Speaker 2: learned there's nothing that says I'm entitled to a perfect, happy,
Speaker 2: golden little life. I get to be happy with where
Speaker 2: I am and what I have, and I don't. I'm
Speaker 2: not entitled to not suffer that I'm human. Things are
Speaker 2: going to happen. Wow. How can I be at piece
Speaker 2: when no matter, I mean, when.
Speaker 1: Growing over your dumpster?
Speaker 2: That's it.
Speaker 1: And Dane Cook is no longer in your parking lot?
Speaker 1: Thank god. That is a nightmare.
Speaker 3: Okay, we're gonna take a break and we're gonna come
Speaker 3: back with Bethany Joy Lens. Okay, and we're back. Okay,
Speaker 3: Joy Joy, you go by Joy. My middle name is
Speaker 3: Joy also, so we know.
Speaker 2: That double Joy.
Speaker 3: So we have a double Joy today. Thank you so
Speaker 3: much for sharing that. This book is incredible. Everyone's going
Speaker 3: to want to read it. It really is important. I
Speaker 3: think every woman should read this, because every every girl,
Speaker 3: I mean, I know boys are susceptible too, but obviously
Speaker 3: my main concern are women.
Speaker 2: Yeah, young girls.
Speaker 5: Thank you.
Speaker 4: Well, I think we have a perfect question for you.
Speaker 4: We have Mariah on the line, and she'll be joining
Speaker 4: us here in a moment, she says, Dear Chelsea, last year,
Speaker 4: just a couple of days before my thirtieth birthday, I
Speaker 4: got the call I had been expecting for some time
Speaker 4: from my mother, who informed me she was quote unquote
Speaker 4: parting ways with me. My parents both work for the
Speaker 4: Church of Scientology, as well as my siblings. There's an
Speaker 4: episode in Leah Remeni's TV show about the Seattle Church
Speaker 4: of Scientology which covers a document my father wrote about
Speaker 4: how to get money from parishioners. I really can't emphasize
Speaker 4: enough how deeply involved my family is. My parents felt
Speaker 4: the need to disown me after I left Scientology, but
Speaker 4: that's because it's one of the church rules. My mom
Speaker 4: had been holding out on disconnecting from me for a while,
Speaker 4: but I could see her growing more distant over the
Speaker 4: last year, so I did know it was coming. As
Speaker 4: I reached out to try and keep a connection alive
Speaker 4: with her. She eventually stopped responding, but then at the
Speaker 4: end of October she finally called and told me. I'm
Speaker 4: still doing a lot of work to recover and deprogram myself,
Speaker 4: but I feel so devastated for my mom. I could
Speaker 4: hear over the phone that my mom was crying and
Speaker 4: reading from a script in front of another person who
Speaker 4: was monitoring our call. I hate that the hard life
Speaker 4: she had landed her in a cult. She's now been
Speaker 4: in for nearly forty five years, and she felt like
Speaker 4: she had to cut me off despite us having an
Speaker 4: otherwise very good relationship. Of course, I'm also so angry
Speaker 4: and hurt that my own family would do.
Speaker 5: This to me.
Speaker 4: I missed my so much, but I don't want to
Speaker 4: cross the boundary she's set. But I also want her
Speaker 4: to know if she can come to me if she needs.
Speaker 4: I'm successful in my own right and I have no
Speaker 4: plans on having kids, so I keep a spare bedroom
Speaker 4: available just in case my siblings or my mom managed
Speaker 4: to escape and need to go somewhere. The holidays are
Speaker 4: coming up and we won't spend them together, and I
Speaker 4: don't know if I should reach out or if I
Speaker 4: should just focus on protecting myself and just move on.
Speaker 5: Do you have any advice?
Speaker 4: Sincerely, Mariah?
Speaker 1: Oh h II, I'm Mariah.
Speaker 2: I'm Mariah.
Speaker 4: Hi.
Speaker 5: Nice to meet you, guys.
Speaker 2: It's great to meet you too.
Speaker 1: Nice to meet you too. What do you think about that? Joy?
Speaker 2: This breaks my heart. You don't deserve Mariah. You do
Speaker 2: not deserve that, and nobody does. That is not okay,
Speaker 2: It's not okay. I guess I would say that maintaining
Speaker 2: any kind of contact. I guess it's what feels authentic
Speaker 2: to you. I don't know that there's a hard and
Speaker 2: fast rule. If you have it, then you even a
Speaker 2: thread of it to be able to still Happy birthday,
Speaker 2: thinking about you, Mom, Love you, Merry Christmas. Dropped off
Speaker 2: some flowers for you. I hope you enjoy them, Like
Speaker 2: if you had that in you, if you can find
Speaker 2: that place, that would be beautiful, and I think that
Speaker 2: would be meaningful. But you're not obligated if you can't
Speaker 2: if you don't have that capability, like you are not
Speaker 2: responsible for saving your mother. So it's I think it's
Speaker 2: got to be from what is going to feel for you,
Speaker 2: like what you need to do?
Speaker 1: What are you Mariah? What are you doing?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 1: How are you coping?
Speaker 3: What are you doing for yourself to help yourself get
Speaker 3: through being excommunicated from your own family?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I see a therapist, but I kind of like
Speaker 5: mentally left before this happened. And it was a balance
Speaker 5: of like, Okay, how much do I don't I tell
Speaker 5: my parents about my life and just being honest and
Speaker 5: stuff about everything going on in my life, But it
Speaker 5: really is just my mom like that I wonder about
Speaker 5: and so I talked to my therapist about this a lot,
Speaker 5: and I'm kind of just still dealing with it my
Speaker 5: journal and stuff and just still trying to figure out
Speaker 5: everything about how to move forward and what I took
Speaker 5: from this that's bad and good, you know. So I
Speaker 5: don't know if I answered your question good enough, but
Speaker 5: I'm just trying to kind of make my way through.
Speaker 2: Can I I have a question? And I also want
Speaker 2: to tell you, like, because my mom stayed in relationship
Speaker 2: with me by not asking too many questions I pushing
Speaker 2: too hard. She just kind of like kind of stayed
Speaker 2: on the surface, knowing that eventually I was going to
Speaker 2: come around. But my dad was different and became estranged.
Speaker 2: I did essentially to him what your mom has done
Speaker 2: to you, and I, even in my delusion, I never
Speaker 2: stopped loving my dad. They lied to me. They tried
Speaker 2: to make me believe terrible things about my father that
Speaker 2: were not true. And even as I was trying to
Speaker 2: like navigate through that, he started sending me letters, handwritten letters.
Speaker 2: He started sending me photos of my little brother and
Speaker 2: birthday parties and what was happening in life. And they
Speaker 2: used to make me really angry. I used to not
Speaker 2: want to read them. I didn't want to deal with
Speaker 2: the emotions that they brought up, but it it made
Speaker 2: a difference for me, like it did when I got out.
Speaker 2: I knew he was there. I knew I was going
Speaker 2: to have to make one hard phone call, to pick
Speaker 2: up the phone and call and say, hey, Dad, I'm
Speaker 2: really sorry. It's been six years, but I did it.
Speaker 2: And you know that's that's possible. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: that's not to say that again, you're not responsible for
Speaker 2: her journey, but that just something. But my question, if
Speaker 2: it's okay, do you feel comfortable telling us what your
Speaker 2: what advice your therapist has given you, because I haven't.
Speaker 2: I haven't been put in a position to give advice
Speaker 2: much other than like one on one if I see
Speaker 2: people and they're asking me. But this is new for me,
Speaker 2: so I would love to know what that advice is,
Speaker 2: if you're okay with sharing.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Well, first of all, I just finished reading your
Speaker 5: book and it's really good, So I think your story
Speaker 5: is incredible. Just for the record, and I did get
Speaker 5: kind of emotional hearing you talk about your dad because
Speaker 5: I listened to the audiobook, which was definitely good with
Speaker 5: it hear your voice and get your take on what
Speaker 5: you went through. But yeah, that is something that I
Speaker 5: exactly talk to my therapist about. Is like, Okay, so
Speaker 5: I feel bad that my mom is in this, but
Speaker 5: also I was born into it. I didn't have any
Speaker 5: choices and she made choices. And am I being you know,
Speaker 5: am I being delusional that it's like it was our
Speaker 5: relationship actually what I thought it was? And did all
Speaker 5: the rules that I was taught growing up actually come
Speaker 5: from her place of like I think this is right
Speaker 5: versus I'm told to tell you this, you know, and
Speaker 5: this is what I've been led to believe. But yeah,
Speaker 5: the advice my therapist is given is to just try
Speaker 5: to move on and try to accept that I might
Speaker 5: never hear from her. She's been in it for longer
Speaker 5: than I've been alive, So she has been an ally
Speaker 5: of scientology longer than she has been my mother. So
Speaker 5: that's something that is like, realistically, yeah, if you're going
Speaker 5: to get past that, you have to leave a very
Speaker 5: powerful cults, one of the more powerful ones, and like
Speaker 5: that's not super realistic. And then there's like my siblings
Speaker 5: and my dad, Like my dad is almost sort of
Speaker 5: the less type of person to compare it to your
Speaker 5: wow situation. Yeah, and so he's a narcissist. He is
Speaker 5: really good at getting people to give money to Scientology
Speaker 5: done to lots of people what last did to you
Speaker 5: in terms of like money management and stuff like that.
Speaker 5: So my mom sees their relationship as the greater good.
Speaker 5: She's helping the world be better by supporting him. So
Speaker 5: she's like the breadwinner. She's kind of been supporting my
Speaker 5: dad my whole life while he works for the Church
Speaker 5: of Scientology and she works part time for the Church
Speaker 5: of Scientology.
Speaker 2: So just to give you.
Speaker 5: Some context of why my dad's not I'm not interested
Speaker 5: in being in my life, you know what I mean. So, Yeah,
Speaker 5: my therapist and they mostly talk about just kind of
Speaker 5: moving on from this and if she ever does reach out,
Speaker 5: like just take it from there.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And also to be able to remind yourself that this
Speaker 3: isn't really who your mother is. You know, it's almost
Speaker 3: like dealing with an addict where you have to remember
Speaker 3: that they're on a drug and that this isn't a
Speaker 3: reflection of how she really feels about you. You know
Speaker 3: that she was upset during that phone call. You know
Speaker 3: that she was being monitored during that phone call. We
Speaker 3: all know all of these things that cults do to
Speaker 3: their cult members, but to remember that, Like, it's so
Speaker 3: sad what you've experienced and what you're still going through,
Speaker 3: and I totally I can feel you, you know, but
Speaker 3: that's not who your mother really is, and that's not
Speaker 3: a reflection.
Speaker 1: Of her love for you. Your mother does love you.
Speaker 3: I believe that you know that she loved you because
Speaker 3: she was so upset during that phone call, and you
Speaker 3: know that that is the drug making her do that,
Speaker 3: and as painful as that is, you can't have that
Speaker 3: in your life unless she has the gumption to leave
Speaker 3: the church at some point, and like you said, she's
Speaker 3: been in there for forty five years, that is very unlikely.
Speaker 3: So what you do have to do is try to
Speaker 3: make peace with the idea that you did have a
Speaker 3: family they're not themselves in this current state, that you
Speaker 3: did experience tons of love and joy, and take a
Speaker 3: lot of pride in the fact that you were able
Speaker 3: to remove yourself from a situation that puts you at
Speaker 3: odds with your family because you were standing up for
Speaker 3: what you know is right. Yeah, and that that wasn't
Speaker 3: for you and that is really ballsy and really brave,
Speaker 3: and as heartbreaking as it is, that is what is
Speaker 3: going to carry you forward to the rest of your
Speaker 3: life so that you can pursue a successful life. You
Speaker 3: could have a success cessful romantic relationship with whomever you want.
Speaker 1: You can have your.
Speaker 3: Own family, and you have to carry on like these
Speaker 3: people aren't going to leave scientology because the likelihood is slim,
Speaker 3: but it's never You never know.
Speaker 1: It could happen, but you just can't count on it happening.
Speaker 3: And I think you should get up every day and
Speaker 3: think about the things that you have in your life
Speaker 3: that you're grateful for and write them down, you know,
Speaker 3: every morning, write down the ten things that you have
Speaker 3: that you are your own, and those things can be
Speaker 3: that you had the goodwill and the good sense to
Speaker 3: get out of a cult.
Speaker 1: You know, I got myself out of it.
Speaker 3: I'm standing here on my own two feet without any
Speaker 3: of them because I had the presence of mind to
Speaker 3: do something better for myself. Don't diminish any of the
Speaker 3: gains that you made by getting out of that.
Speaker 2: That is great advice. And also think about this as
Speaker 2: an opportunity because there are older women who are brilliant
Speaker 2: mentors who can step into that role for you and
Speaker 2: be a friend and be nobody's ever going to replace
Speaker 2: your mother. But I think that as I was just
Speaker 2: saying before, you know, there's no sort of like get
Speaker 2: out of suffering free card. We all have something that
Speaker 2: we encounter that's just like, how am I going to
Speaker 2: get through this? What am I going to do? And
Speaker 2: there is opportunity in every one of those moments. And
Speaker 2: there may be somebody out there who you're going to
Speaker 2: encounter that you never would have encountered if this hadn't happened,
Speaker 2: and they need you in their life and you need
Speaker 2: them in your life, maybe multiple people you don't know.
Speaker 2: So while that doesn't wipe away the pain, and you
Speaker 2: still can hold that pain and process through it as
Speaker 2: you need to, there is opportunity and there are really
Speaker 2: good things that can come from hardship.
Speaker 1: How did you decide to leave scientology?
Speaker 5: That's it probably, I think anyone who leaves a cult,
Speaker 5: there's not like a single moment that they like just
Speaker 5: decide I've a light, you know, it's usually a ton
Speaker 5: of moments. But for me, I mean the silver lining
Speaker 5: of being born into it was that my parents were
Speaker 5: quite busy with it and quite neglectful, so I was
Speaker 5: sort of left to my own devices most of the time.
Speaker 5: I read the Internet. I got an education because I
Speaker 5: eventually had to start working like retail jobs to just
Speaker 5: like having money for food and stuff. When I was
Speaker 5: a teenager, and I was like, well, I want a
Speaker 5: better life than what a retail job can give me,
Speaker 5: you know. So I went to school and that was
Speaker 5: sort of the beginning of the deprogramming. That was how
Speaker 5: I kind of learned how to determine if something is
Speaker 5: real or not when the claim is made. That is
Speaker 5: how I learned how to, Like I got, I got
Speaker 5: a science degree, so I learned a lot about how
Speaker 5: science works and what is and isn't science. So for me,
Speaker 5: that's that was how it went down, because it's scientology
Speaker 5: is not really a sort of god type religion. It's
Speaker 5: like it's barely a religion.
Speaker 2: It's like more about, oh.
Speaker 5: Yeah, if you do A B and C, this will happen.
Speaker 5: But then there's actually no real evidence, no real anything
Speaker 5: but claims.
Speaker 2: You're amazing, that's such a great story the progression of.
Speaker 1: That, And how did you tell your parents you were leaving.
Speaker 5: I actually didn't. Someone thought that I was following some
Speaker 5: people on Twitter I'm not supposed to follow and they
Speaker 5: reported me. So then my dad, because he's like one
Speaker 5: of the leaders, he got the report and he called
Speaker 5: me and was like, hey, we need to talk. And
Speaker 5: uh so my parents scheduled a few meetings with me
Speaker 5: to talk about my thoughts and what they wanted me
Speaker 5: to do, and I kind I just had to stay
Speaker 5: my boundaries over and over again, like yeah.
Speaker 2: You guys can't defy this for me.
Speaker 5: I'm not going to unfollow someone just because you want
Speaker 5: me to.
Speaker 2: Wow. Oh good for you. Yeah, that's incredible, it really is.
Speaker 5: I'm just gonna let my dog outside of this room
Speaker 5: real quick.
Speaker 4: Okay, sure, I'm really glad she has a dog.
Speaker 5: I know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's one of the things that you're going
Speaker 3: to write down that you're grateful for, is your dog
Speaker 3: every morning. When we talk about these gratitude like journaling
Speaker 3: and gratitude lists, like to all of our listeners, it
Speaker 3: could be anything.
Speaker 1: It can be like it can be material things.
Speaker 3: It could be your sofa, it can be your personality,
Speaker 3: it can be someone else, it can be your friend.
Speaker 3: Like when I'm saying to write down things, like some
Speaker 3: people people always ask me, They're like, well, what if
Speaker 3: it's materialistic, that's okay. Just write down ten things that
Speaker 3: you're grateful for. You know, your sensibility can be one
Speaker 3: of the things. Your dog can be another thing. The
Speaker 3: house that you're staying in, the apartment that you're renting, whatever,
Speaker 3: it is, your job, and I just slowly want you
Speaker 3: to get yourself to a place where of acceptance rather
Speaker 3: than grief, because of course you're going to feel grief
Speaker 3: for a really long time. But if you can get
Speaker 3: to a place of acceptance and understanding that this really
Speaker 3: has very little to do with you. Unfortunately, however personal
Speaker 3: it feels. I know, it's your mother and you're it
Speaker 3: must feel like a huge rejection. But when you really
Speaker 3: look at it from an outside perspective, these people have
Speaker 3: been infected with ideas and thoughts and and you have
Speaker 3: the good sense not to have been.
Speaker 5: Yeah. I mean, one of the things that Joy you
Speaker 5: talked about in your book was these moments of like, oh,
Speaker 5: I didn't feel right about that, But then I was like, well,
Speaker 5: I'm being cynical or I'm being you know, a problem
Speaker 5: in some way, I'm not having a generous mindset here
Speaker 5: and the aftermath of all this has been like realizing
Speaker 5: those moments and you're like, wait, I did know, Like
Speaker 5: I was smart enough to see this stuff the whole time,
Speaker 5: and I just kept telling myself what I needed to
Speaker 5: survive because I needed the group that I mean, I
Speaker 5: ay went to a scientology school, like very very insulated.
Speaker 5: I didn't know anyone else until I happened to get
Speaker 5: a job working at a grocery store, you know, so
Speaker 5: that was my first exposure to non scientologists.
Speaker 2: So that was your attachment those are that was that.
Speaker 2: As I was saying earlier, we were talking about what
Speaker 2: made me susceptible was attachment, which is something I've realized recently.
Speaker 2: I was always saying it was a need for family.
Speaker 2: But I had a great conversation with doctor Romney Derivstula.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you know who she is, but
Speaker 2: she's a great person to follow for you, dtr Romeny,
Speaker 2: and she was she really clarified it was it was attachment.
Speaker 2: That's what I was looking for, and that was it
Speaker 2: sounds like that was what you're attached was too, And
Speaker 2: it's a I think it's a really natural thing for
Speaker 2: us to override the things that we feel gutturally because
Speaker 2: of a deeply felt, very human neat We all need attachment.
Speaker 2: We're built for community, even from like caveman days, like
Speaker 2: they are built for community. So that need is really
Speaker 2: really valuable and really hard to push away. When your
Speaker 2: little red flags are going off, it's like your gut
Speaker 2: or your heart, what do you listen to?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, especially when you're like eight, it's like yeah,
Speaker 5: or in your case, you were raised Christian and so
Speaker 5: now you have this other Christian mindset that is being
Speaker 5: double reinforced because you learned about Christianity and childhood.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I mean think about your situation. You were
Speaker 3: born into this, this is all you were ever taught,
Speaker 3: and you had sense enough to extricate yourself from it
Speaker 3: once you got educated.
Speaker 1: Like that is so brave and bold and baldy, Like you.
Speaker 3: Have a huge, bright future ahead of you, and I
Speaker 3: want you to just start to lean into that.
Speaker 1: You can't skip past grief.
Speaker 3: You have to experience the loss, and it's a huge loss.
Speaker 1: But you're not wrong, You're right.
Speaker 3: You know you did the right thing, and you can't
Speaker 3: control what your mom's going to do, but you can
Speaker 3: go out there and live a life in honor of
Speaker 3: your good sense and in honor of what your mother's life.
Speaker 1: Could have been.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's beautiful.
Speaker 5: I think a lot about what my mom's life could
Speaker 5: have been because she joined up with Scientology when she
Speaker 5: was like nineteen or twenty or something, and it's such
Speaker 5: a vulnerable time in people's lives, and they got her
Speaker 5: and she married a guy. And you know, I got
Speaker 5: this dog the day after my mom called me and yeah,
Speaker 5: I heard you say, Chelsea, it's gonna have a dog. Yeah,
Speaker 5: that was exactly what I was like, you know what
Speaker 5: I've always wanted to that, let's get on.
Speaker 1: You got that dog.
Speaker 4: And they always know what's your guy's name?
Speaker 2: His name is Poe.
Speaker 5: Yeah, cutie. But yeah, I've been like kind of numb
Speaker 5: this last year. I really didn't This timing of this
Speaker 5: was actually quite crazy because I didn't process and even
Speaker 5: cry about this until last week because I was I
Speaker 5: was just so numbed out. You know, it felt like
Speaker 5: surreal too, but it just kind of hit me, like,
Speaker 5: you know the way that everyone when you realize how
Speaker 5: everyone on the outside has seen you this whole time,
Speaker 5: and how everyone who you thought like was judging you
Speaker 5: for being weird, was like just really concerned and scared
Speaker 5: for you, And that almost made me feel more emotional
Speaker 5: than anything else, Like whoa. And then also just realizing
Speaker 5: my dad, how like my dad is actually and like
Speaker 5: as opposed to the story I was told of who
Speaker 5: he is. I was told he's like this wonderful person
Speaker 5: and everyone looks up to him, and I was told
Speaker 5: constantly how lucky I was to have him as a dad.
Speaker 5: But meanwhile, like I would get his you know, wrath
Speaker 5: at home and stuff like that. So start of processing
Speaker 5: all of this as far as like, oh, my reality
Speaker 5: is now different, Like I went from one reality and
Speaker 5: I'm now in a different one. And it's really just
Speaker 5: been like a week And like the day after I
Speaker 5: cried about it for the first time was when I
Speaker 5: got an email from Captine. So it's quite crazy timing
Speaker 5: is that I just got a chill. This was only
Speaker 5: a week ago that I like first cried about it. Yeah,
Speaker 5: it was a year ago that my mom called me. Yeah.
Speaker 2: The analogy Chelsea that you just gave about addiction, actually
Speaker 2: I think is so brilliant because that is so similar
Speaker 2: to the behavior of somebody that just checks out because
Speaker 2: they it's almost like a disease in your mind. You're
Speaker 2: just that's all you know how to do, and that's
Speaker 2: what they're seeking attachment in a certain way, and they
Speaker 2: don't know how to overcome it. I actually found going
Speaker 2: to alan On to be very helpful in my cult
Speaker 2: recovery stuff, like I have addiction in my family lineage
Speaker 2: that manifested in codependence and all different kinds of things
Speaker 2: in my life. But I was really surprised how going
Speaker 2: to alan On was was really really helpful because so
Speaker 2: much of the behavior is similar.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think there's a lot of online ex
Speaker 3: scientificogy support groups. Oh yeah, I think you should definitely
Speaker 3: look and try and find one of those if you want,
Speaker 3: I can ask Lea Remenee, she's a good friend of mine,
Speaker 3: because I think what you're experiencing is just so unique
Speaker 3: that you want other people who have also been through
Speaker 3: the same thing specific to scientology, and I think you'll
Speaker 3: find a lot of comfort there and a lot of
Speaker 3: like mindedness and that will make you feel a little
Speaker 3: bit less isolated and alone during this time. So definitely
Speaker 3: do that and also keep crying, like that's how you
Speaker 3: get this anguish and grief out. So I understand that
Speaker 3: you didn't cry for a year and now you are crying,
Speaker 3: and you're going to be crying. But it doesn't mean
Speaker 3: you're going to be crying all day every day. It
Speaker 3: means when you feel it coming on, let it out,
Speaker 3: let it move through you, and then you know an
Speaker 3: hour later you'll be doing something and you'll find yourself
Speaker 3: laughing or having a good time doing something.
Speaker 1: But don't be scared of grieving. It's part of the process.
Speaker 4: And Maria, will you check back in with us in
Speaker 4: a few months, Yeah, check.
Speaker 1: Back in with us.
Speaker 3: I'm going to get that info from Leah if she
Speaker 3: knows of any like support groups personally, and then yeah,
Speaker 3: keep in touch with us, Okay, because you know, I
Speaker 3: just want you to remember you're very lovable.
Speaker 2: Thanks. Yeah, you're really awesome.
Speaker 3: You're lovable. So start you're gonna write. Start writing those
Speaker 3: ten things down every morning too when you wake up. Okay, Okay, Okay, Mariah.
Speaker 2: Big hugs, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Thank You're amazing.
Speaker 2: Maria, you are amazing.
Speaker 5: You guys too, Thank you so much. And Chelsea like
Speaker 5: to be a public figure willing to say anything negative
Speaker 5: about scientology is so cool of you.
Speaker 1: Oh, no problem.
Speaker 2: Cool, Thanks guys, Bye bye bye.
Speaker 3: Okay, we're gonna take a break and we're gonna come
Speaker 3: back and wrap up with Beth and a joy Lens.
Speaker 1: And we're back. Wow.
Speaker 3: That was a heavy episode, you guys, that was deep.
Speaker 3: Thank you for writing this book. This must have been
Speaker 3: really hard for you to write, was it?
Speaker 2: No, it was it was. It felt good. It felt
Speaker 2: good to get it out, to be able to it
Speaker 2: felt good for me to be able to see it
Speaker 2: all out in a straight line, so to speak, like
Speaker 2: it wasn't all just floating around in my head and
Speaker 2: memories in my body that I couldn't attach. I didn't
Speaker 2: know how to attach one memory to the next one,
Speaker 2: and there were blanks that I had to fill in
Speaker 2: by calling former members of the group who had also
Speaker 2: gotten out and say what happened? Because I remember this?
Speaker 2: But then how did we get from point A to
Speaker 2: point D? And the amount of love and support that
Speaker 2: we were able to re engage with each other in
Speaker 2: this was a really it felt very powerful to me
Speaker 2: to be able to write this story and see it
Speaker 2: put out in a straight line, as I say, And
Speaker 2: I really hope that it can be helpful. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 2: there were moments, there were a couple of hard days,
Speaker 2: but overall, I'm just really glad to be able to
Speaker 2: have gotten it out of my body.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know.
Speaker 3: Well, it's a powerful move to write a book like this,
Speaker 3: and it means you know, I think that is a
Speaker 3: perfect way to celebrate the ending of that and commemorate
Speaker 3: the fact that you I mean, it's going to help
Speaker 3: so many people, I really hope, so people who are
Speaker 3: ever come across a situation like that where you can
Speaker 3: easily get duped into believing that some random group of
Speaker 3: people has a better interest in you than your own family,
Speaker 3: and they own the people that you know and the
Speaker 3: people that you love, and and what happens there. So, yeah,
Speaker 3: thank you for your book. And it's called Dinner Vampire.
Speaker 1: What is it? Vampire Dinners for a vampire? Sorry I
Speaker 1: don't have it right from.
Speaker 2: The dinner Dinner for Vampires.
Speaker 3: Called Dinner for Vampires by Bethany Joy Lenz.
Speaker 1: Okay, Bethany, will let you go. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: That was lovely and really actually just I just want
Speaker 2: to tell you hearing you encourage her was really encouraging
Speaker 2: for me and inspiring and made me want to be
Speaker 2: able to I'm such a problem solver. I'm sort of
Speaker 2: like that's my ADHD right, Like I'm always I don't
Speaker 2: it's hard for me to listen. I just want to
Speaker 2: like solve the problem. So hearing you just hold that
Speaker 2: space and then just speak encouragement, encouragement, encouragement is so
Speaker 2: I was like, I want to be more like that.
Speaker 2: So thank you for giving me that today.
Speaker 1: I needed that absolutely my pleasure.
Speaker 2: All right, it was great talking with you both. Thank
Speaker 2: you for having me. Thank you, Bye bye bye.
Speaker 3: Okay, guys, stand up shows that I have coming up
Speaker 3: December twenty eighth, I'm coming in New Orleans right before
Speaker 3: New Year's and then I'll be in Atlanta, Georgia on
Speaker 3: December twenty ninth.
Speaker 1: And those are the rest of my stand up dates
Speaker 1: for this year. It's over new Tour New Year.
Speaker 4: If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email
Speaker 4: at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be
Speaker 4: sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited
Speaker 4: and engineered by Brad Dickert executive producer Catherine Law and
Speaker 4: be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot
Speaker 4: com