1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:02,200 Speaker 1: Hi Catherine, Hi Chelsea. 2 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:02,680 Speaker 2: How are you? 3 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 3: Readings from Whistler, Canada, my new home for the next 4 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 3: three weeks. 5 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: I'm so pleased for you. You're always happier when you're chilly. Yes, 6 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: I am. I needed a real fucking break this year, 7 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: real break. 8 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 3: I needed to take my own advice, read my own book, 9 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 3: and then reread Letting Go. 10 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: I need lots of help, so I am now decompressing. 11 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 4: Amazing is your new book? Is it like a little 12 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 4: bit advice based as well or more personal? 13 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 3: St It's pretty much how to be optimistic in the dark, 14 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 3: how to inject yourself with positivity and optimism. 15 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:34,480 Speaker 1: And I have lost. 16 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 3: My way with positivity and optimism, so I really need 17 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 3: to reread it. 18 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:40,840 Speaker 4: It does happen sometimes where you like need a little 19 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 4: bit of a reset. 20 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely absolutely. 21 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 3: My schedule for the last two months has just been 22 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 3: was just insane. Why and the travel and the shows, 23 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 3: and then the my house never being done, and then 24 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 3: the podcasts. You know, we're kind I've been running her ragon. 25 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 3: They decide to it's your fault. They decide to do 26 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 3: construction when I'm recording. You know, I'm gone fifty days 27 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 3: a fucking month. It feels like, and then the one 28 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 3: day they're doing stuff is when I'm home. 29 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: So it has just. 30 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 3: Been Yeah, nobody seems to understand how to manage a schedule, 31 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 3: including myself. 32 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 4: Just twenty different groups all pulling you in different. 33 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: Directs, right right, right. 34 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 3: I mean, I'm grateful for the work, but it's hard 35 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 3: to be grateful when you're so fucking tired, and then 36 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 3: you start pitching, and then you start getting negative and 37 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 3: all of that stuff, and then you go RecA I 38 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 3: am recharging as we speak. I'm plugged into a recharger. 39 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,839 Speaker 3: It's in my butt, by the way, speaking of recharging. 40 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 3: My two last shows of the year in America, well 41 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 3: until further notice, because I don't know that I'm going 42 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 3: to be touring next year. So I have a show 43 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 3: in New Orleans on December twenty eighth, and on December 44 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 3: twenty ninth, I'm in Atlanta, Georgia, So get your tickets 45 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 3: at Chelseahandler dot com. You can also find out where 46 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 3: I'll be doing live book events next year, for I'll 47 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 3: have What She's Having, which comes out February twenty fifth. 48 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 3: That's on my website too, where I'll be signing books, 49 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 3: talking taking pictures all of that stuff. 50 00:01:58,360 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: Awesome. 51 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, And just to clarify, since we promised we would 52 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 4: last week, that's where you can get your signed copies 53 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 4: of the book. And you can also get them at 54 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 4: books a million in Barns and Noble. 55 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 3: Right, yes, yes, I signed lots of books for books 56 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 3: a million of Barnes and Noble. So many books. My 57 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 3: back went out. I aalira happy there are boxes. 58 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah. 59 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 3: The day of Thanksgiving, my sister was cooking a turkey 60 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 3: in the kitchen, even though I can't tell her she 61 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,519 Speaker 3: can't cook and why does she keep trying? And I 62 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 3: sat there for five hours and signed books and I 63 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 3: made like a dent in the I was like, oh, 64 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 3: I didn't realize how many books. 65 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: Ten thousand books. 66 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 3: I didn't realize that that's just almost it's almost a bond. 67 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 1: With my lifestyle. Who are we introducing. 68 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 4: We are introducing Bethany Joy Lens. 69 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 3: This was a good interview and a great book. Okay, 70 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 3: So our guest today is an actress, singer, songwriter and 71 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 3: co host of the One Tree Hill Rewatch podcast drama Queens. 72 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 3: Her new memoir, Dinner for Vampires is out now. Please 73 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 3: welcome Bethany Joy Lens Hi NOI. 74 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: Hi, oh hello, Hi, How are you great? 75 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 2: How are you girls? 76 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: I'm just so happy you're cult free? 77 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 2: Me too, Mama. 78 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 1: Oh my god, that book. Oh my god. 79 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 3: I have never really ever been interested in colts, So 80 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 3: I don't I haven't watched all of these shows that 81 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 3: everyone has watched in all of these docuseries or whatever 82 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 3: they are, and I've never really read about a cult. 83 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: This is my first reading about a cult. 84 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 3: Really, yeah, and it was pretty stunning. I guess I 85 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 3: want to ask you now that you're out of it 86 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 3: for how many years have you been out of it? Five? 87 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 5: Oh? 88 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 2: No, longer about thirteen? 89 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 5: Oh? 90 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: Oh wow, twelve thirteen? 91 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: Yeah? Oh okay, So now you have some real perspective. 92 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Yeah, that's I think that's what made it 93 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 2: okay for me to write the book without feeling like 94 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 2: I was going to fall apart every day, because there's 95 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 2: I have a certain measure of objectivity about it now, 96 00:03:58,960 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 2: I think. 97 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 3: Wow, okay, So I'm curious to see before we get 98 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 3: into all the details or whatever we decide to talk about, 99 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 3: what do you think now when you think about why 100 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 3: you were susceptible in the first place to being commandeered 101 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 3: in that way and falling into that. 102 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: What do you think it was. 103 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 2: I think it was a longing for attachment, which is 104 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: a pretty human need. I think it's the same thing 105 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 2: that draws anyone into any kind of abusive situation, whether 106 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 2: it's a workplace environment that you just can't seem to leave, 107 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 2: or a toxic relationship, or staying in a family environment, 108 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 2: a biological family environment that's just super toxic and abusive. 109 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 2: There's this sense of a need for attachment that we 110 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 2: all have. And I was twenty years old. It's so 111 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 2: different now, having so much mileage in my life that 112 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 2: I feel like my radar is so much better. But 113 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 2: back then I was twenty, It's like, what did I know. 114 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 2: I was taught to respect authority. I was taught to 115 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 2: believe your elders and believe people who seem like they 116 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 2: have your best interests at heart. And I wanted a family. 117 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you wanted a family. That's true. 118 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 3: Like I could see that, and you can see that 119 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 3: in the book because there were so many hints, like 120 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 3: even the first time you met Less, the cult leader, 121 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 3: when you met him, you were grossed out, like itcked 122 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 3: out by him initially right, and then so like, there 123 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 3: were so many instances that you write about in the 124 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 3: book from the beginning of meeting this like kind of 125 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 3: seemingly harmless group of people and all being kind of 126 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 3: involved in religion and Christianity and wanting to spend time 127 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 3: together in your own kind of like prayer group or 128 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 3: spirituality group or however you know we can frame it. 129 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 3: There were all these little signs along the way, but 130 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 3: you always kind of convinced yourself that it wasn't your 131 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 3: place to judge them or have an opinion about them, 132 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 3: and instead convinced yourself it was the right thing to 133 00:05:59,000 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 3: do to stick with. 134 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 2: Isn't that amazing? Like the testament to the fact that 135 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 2: we all have this innate guttural knowledge like compass, where 136 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 2: we know, you know something's off, and we talk ourselves 137 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 2: out of things, into or out of things all the time, 138 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 2: even from a young age. I mean, I write about 139 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 2: in the book how my mom and dad when they 140 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 2: would be arguing. There were so many moments I'd walk 141 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 2: into the room or they would leave a room that 142 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 2: they had been arguing behind a closed door, and I'd 143 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 2: be like, what's wrong? And I was just met with 144 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 2: like everything's fine, No, nothing's wrong, And as a kid, 145 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 2: you just start to think, oh, I guess I guess 146 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,919 Speaker 2: it's me, Like maybe I'm crazy. I guess I'm the 147 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 2: one that thinks everybody is being tense and there's nothing wrong. 148 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 2: So you really start to doubt your own gut and 149 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 2: your own instinct. And you do that enough, then people 150 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 2: can come in and take advantage of you if they 151 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 2: recognize that trait in you. 152 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's going to be interesting to a 153 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 3: lot of callers and a lot of mothers listening to 154 00:06:55,800 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 3: this conversation, because you basically got swept up in this 155 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 3: group of people and started to believe they were your 156 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 3: real family, as they convinced you that they were really 157 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 3: the only people that cared about you and that understood 158 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 3: you right. And any time your father or your mother 159 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 3: came on the scene, who were both concerned because they 160 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 3: could see something was a little bit off, they were 161 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 3: met with silence or kind of like you know, they 162 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 3: were ignored or dismissed as not even really having a 163 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 3: valid place in your life anymore. And this went on 164 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 3: from when you were on One Tree Hill, which you 165 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 3: were filming for how many seasons. Were you on their 166 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 3: seven We did nine seasons, which was even doubt about 167 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 3: ten years. So ten years on that show, and the 168 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 3: whole time you were in this cult, the whole time 169 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 3: flying back and forth to Idaho from North Carolina, right 170 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 3: was North Carolina a. 171 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 2: Whole Yeah, from North Carolin. We were in Wilmington. Wilmington, 172 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: North Carolina, which is like one of the small, super 173 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 2: small beachy town that has no direct flights to the 174 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 2: West coast at all. I have to always take double flights. 175 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 2: It was exhausting. It was like eight to twelve hour 176 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 2: travel days every time. 177 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 3: And there was nothing glamorous about it at all. Like 178 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 3: when you described the house in Idaho the big house 179 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 3: in Idaho, because you met these people in La first, right, 180 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 3: and then they had this other house in Idaho, which 181 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 3: was already there was a lot of not normal behavior 182 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 3: around that, like it was someone else's house that they 183 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 3: kind of commandeered. And then all of you guys, kind 184 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 3: of all these vagabonds for lack of a better word, 185 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 3: people who were a little bit lost, kind of like yourself, 186 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 3: would move into this house and kind of created this family. 187 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 3: And then over the course of the time you were there, 188 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 3: they basically embezzled over two million dollars from. 189 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 2: You, right, Yes, that is true. 190 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 3: And you got married and had a baby within the cults. 191 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: I'm just so glad that you're free. I'm so happy 192 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: for you. That is incredible. 193 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 3: That's all that matters, right, is that you're out of 194 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 3: that situation. 195 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,080 Speaker 2: Yes, and I look at it bizarrely. I mean, I 196 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 2: know it might sound kind of strange, but I do 197 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 2: look at it as a blessing. I mean, I think 198 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 2: we all deal with crazy shit in our lives and 199 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 2: when one way or another, if it's not one thing, 200 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 2: it's something else. Mine falls under a category that in 201 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 2: our culture right now is deemed really strange and weird 202 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 2: and crazy. But my aim with this book is to 203 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 2: show how what a slow burn it is, and how 204 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 2: even though the narcissistic abuse was in a group format, 205 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 2: for what I experienced, the top notes are all the 206 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,839 Speaker 2: same in any kind of abusive relationship across the board. 207 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 2: And that's what I want people to take away, that, like, 208 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 2: you don't have to have been in a cult in 209 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 2: order to deeply relate to the sense of being gas 210 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 2: lit and love bombed and coerced and taken advantage of 211 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 2: and yes, to your point, thank god, I'm out, Like 212 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 2: I'm so happy that I'm out, But I'm really I'm 213 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 2: grateful that I went through it because now I feel 214 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 2: like I've got something in my life that I can 215 00:09:58,120 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 2: help other people with. 216 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 3: So are you coming into with being on this book 217 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 3: tour and now going public with this story because a 218 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 3: lot of people, your cast members were also They all 219 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 3: kind of suspected that you were involved with something that 220 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 3: wasn't really on the up and up, and you had 221 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 3: some close friends on the cast and some friends that 222 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 3: you missed an opportunity at that time to develop relationships 223 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 3: with because you were in such a kind of controlling environment. 224 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: So are people asking you? 225 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 3: Are there women and young women and men asking you 226 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,599 Speaker 3: questions about whether or not they're in an abusive or 227 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 3: narcissistic dynamic? 228 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 2: Now I do get some of those. I get more 229 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 2: of people who say they know someone who's in an 230 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 2: abusive dynamic and they don't know what to do and 231 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 2: they don't know how to help them, And. 232 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: What do you say to that? 233 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 2: It's hard. It's hard, you, guys, because the very nature 234 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 2: of it is your identity, your whole construct of your 235 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 2: identity becomes tied up in the approval or the attachment 236 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 2: that you have with this person or these people. So 237 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 2: for some to say to you, hey, I think you're 238 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 2: in an abusive relationship, Hey I think you're in a cult, 239 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 2: or anything to that end is not just It's not 240 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 2: just information that you can objectively sit back and say, 241 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 2: let me take a look at this and see if 242 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 2: that's true. Your heart and soul and identity are already 243 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 2: bound up in it. So how could anybody say something 244 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 2: to you that's going to make you The stakes are 245 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 2: so high, you know. And I know for me at 246 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 2: that time, nobody could have said anything, and they tried. 247 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 2: There were people that tried. Nobody could have said anything 248 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 2: to me that would have convinced me of a different 249 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 2: reality than the one I was living in in my mind. 250 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 2: And so long winded answer to your question, what I 251 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 2: try and advise people is be a friend. If you 252 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 2: can manage to maintain a friendship of honesty, where the 253 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 2: person trusts you and values you. You know, there's a little 254 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 2: bit of pushback, but not too much. Don't give them 255 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 2: too much pushback because then they might just cut you 256 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 2: out of their life. If you become this sort of 257 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 2: like suppressive person or whatever the version of that. 258 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 3: Is, which also I just sorry, I want to interrupt you, 259 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 3: because that's the very important thing you say in the book. 260 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,719 Speaker 3: Is the first sign that you are in something that 261 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 3: is not cool or you're being coerced is when anyone 262 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 3: who's not part of that group becomes someone you're not. 263 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: Allowed to talk to. Right, Like I forget the word. 264 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 3: They use in scientology, like suppressive personality, but like anyone 265 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 3: who doesn't agree with that, if you're not allowed to 266 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 3: talk to certain people because they don't subscribe to your 267 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 3: religion or your spirituality, then that is a big red 268 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 3: flag anyone who tries to cut you off from other people. 269 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 2: And what you're saying is it's so accurate. And also 270 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 2: think about it doesn't necessarily come out from the abuser 271 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 2: as the words you're not allowed. In my case, it 272 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 2: came out as much more condescending, much more like it's 273 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 2: masked as kindness in a way, like that person is 274 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 2: not maybe not safe for you, guard your heart, look 275 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 2: out for yourself, look out for them too. You don't 276 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 2: want to be talking to them about spiritual concepts that 277 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 2: they can't understand. That's going to set up a representation 278 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,959 Speaker 2: of Christ for them. That's too confusing. So keep you 279 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 2: know the language. You really have to pay attention not 280 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 2: just to what someone is saying, but what they're doing. 281 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,959 Speaker 2: And if the byproduct of what's being said is isolation, 282 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 2: that's you have to pay attention to that, because it's 283 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 2: not going to come out as obvious. If the person 284 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 2: is a real narcissist, if they're good at their job, 285 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 2: if they're controlling you, it's going to come out much 286 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 2: more veiled. 287 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 3: Do you think that Christianity, like your childhood Christianity, had 288 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 3: any factor in this? 289 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 2: Sure? Oh yeah, it was massive. I mean, as for 290 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,599 Speaker 2: anyone out there who has not read Dinner for Vampires. 291 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:05,479 Speaker 2: I grew up in a charismatic evangelical church, non denominational, 292 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 2: not super political or anything. It wasn't extreme in that 293 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 2: way it was it was just very loose, like there 294 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 2: was no when it's non denominational, there's no system or 295 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 2: structure that you have that the pastor has accountability to. 296 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 2: They kind of can say whatever they want and maybe 297 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 2: there's elders in the church, but it's not part of 298 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 2: like if you're Presbyterian, you're part of the presbytery, and 299 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 2: there's this like long overarching community of leaders and people 300 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 2: who've been holding on to hundreds of years of theology 301 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 2: and things like that. So there's this like accountability that 302 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 2: comes with a lot of denominations. So non denominational is 303 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 2: what I grew up in, which also made me a 304 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 2: lot more comfortable to be in an environment where some 305 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 2: guy comes in says whatever he wants and I'm like, well, 306 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 2: you're a pastor, so I guess I can believe you too, 307 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 2: with no accountability. But I do think that I mean, 308 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 2: it's actually I feel like it's kind of a miracle 309 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 2: that I still have managed to have a relationship with 310 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 2: God and with christ. I really hesitate to use the 311 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 2: word Christian because of what it means, especially in this 312 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 2: country right now, but that relationship is still exists for me, 313 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 2: but in a much more authentic way because I think 314 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 2: what I was taught, I know what I was taught 315 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 2: when I was young was very much Here are the 316 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 2: things you need to do. Here are the rules you 317 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 2: need to follow in order to have the kind of 318 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 2: life that God wants you to have. In order to 319 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 2: get the life that you want to get, God to 320 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 2: give you the life that you want. You just need 321 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 2: to follow all these rules and then you'll be happy. 322 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 2: Turns out that's not so true. Turns out bad things 323 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 2: happen to people who are following all the rules too. 324 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: No, I would have been so jypped. I would have 325 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: felt so jypped. 326 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 3: You were bleeding God's life and then God did that, 327 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 3: Like I would be so fucking pissed. 328 00:15:58,280 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was. 329 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: Because in the beginning of. 330 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 3: The book, like when you're kind of not on the 331 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 3: fence about joining this group of people because they kind 332 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 3: of wind and dined you, so to speak. You talk 333 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 3: about a moment where you're asking you're silently sitting there alone, 334 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 3: trying to feel God's presence and giving you guidance and 335 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 3: what to do. And in that moment you talk about 336 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 3: feeling it and that was this signal that you needed 337 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 3: to actually get more involved or I think it was. 338 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 3: Was it to get more involved in the group, where 339 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 3: maybe it was to give up a job. No, No, 340 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 3: it was to get more involved in the group. 341 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 2: Right, which moment are you talking about? I'm trying to 342 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 2: I might have missed something. You said. 343 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: There's two moments. I'll tell you about your own book. 344 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: Let me tell. 345 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 3: You, there's one moment where you're at the beginning of 346 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 3: becoming very involved with this group of people at the beginning, 347 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 3: and you were like waiting to hear God's voice, and 348 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 3: God's like, I'm here with you, you know, kind of 349 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 3: like almost a confirmation of maybe you were hesitant or wavering. 350 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 3: So tell us about that moment when you felt God's 351 00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 3: energy in that moment. 352 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 2: Yes, okay, this is one of my favorite moments in life. 353 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 2: And I really didn't tell very many I mean maybe 354 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 2: like three people in my life. I've ever told about 355 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 2: this before I wrote this book because I know it 356 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 2: kind of sounds crazy. So anyway, I well it's all 357 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 2: out there now. 358 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: It's not as crazy as you call. 359 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 5: So. 360 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm nineteen years old, I'm living in New York. 361 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 2: I'm happy. I've got a great life, i got a 362 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 2: great job. There's really no problem. And I'm sitting in 363 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 2: this cafe on a rainy Tuesday or whatever, and I 364 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 2: look out and I'm thinking to myself, huh, you know what, 365 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 2: you know, it would be weird if all this Christianity stuff, 366 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 2: like all this Jesus stuff that I grew up with, 367 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 2: if that was all just made up in somebody's imagination 368 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 2: and a bunch of people believe it and it's just 369 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 2: not true. And then I was like, oh, well, I 370 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 2: mean it's working for me, like my life is happy, 371 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 2: I'm doing well, like I guess I'll find out when 372 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 2: I die, and really just kind of moved on from it. 373 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 2: I didn't think much more beyond that, and I write 374 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 2: about it more in detail in the book of Really 375 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 2: What It felt like. But I felt like it was 376 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 2: like I was in a slow motion movie, like every 377 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 2: molecule in my body just went to the perfect temperature. 378 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,239 Speaker 2: Everything got really still and quiet, and I felt the 379 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 2: physical presence of a body sit next to me in 380 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 2: this booth that I was in at this empty cafe, 381 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 2: and obviously there was no one there. And I heard 382 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 2: a voice, like an audible voice, very close to my ear, 383 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 2: and it said, never doubt that. 384 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: I am real. 385 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 2: And then it went away, and I remember, like immediately, 386 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 2: you know, tears in my eyes, and I was like 387 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 2: desperately trying to remember the sound of the voice, and 388 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 2: it just was gone, like everything was just gone instantly. 389 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 2: And I was confused by it for years because I 390 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 2: thought of all the time I've all the times in 391 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 2: my life I've been in pain and anguish in my knees, like, God, 392 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,679 Speaker 2: where are you? Give me a sign? Tell me something? 393 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 2: What should I do? What choice should I make? How 394 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 2: do I feel better from this or that? Nothing? And 395 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 2: I would feel like radio silence. Why in the world 396 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 2: would God have bothered to come and let me know 397 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 2: that I was I was seen, not just like some 398 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 2: random universal feel like this thing that loves me, whatever 399 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 2: love means, and that sort of like vast context, but 400 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 2: like a very intentional personal joy. I see you, I 401 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 2: hear you, I love you. I'm real. Why would you 402 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,439 Speaker 2: bother doing that in a moment that was completely insignificant 403 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 2: where there was nothing at stake? And I didn't realize 404 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 2: until all those years later, when I was in exactly 405 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 2: the moment that you were talking about, Chelsea saying I 406 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 2: was fucking pissed. I was jypped. I was like, I 407 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 2: just devoted my whole life to you. I did all 408 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 2: the right things, and this is what I get. Fuck you? 409 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 2: And I really like, I literally just said that to God, 410 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 2: fuck you, fuck you, I hate you. I'm so mad 411 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 2: at you. How dare you? And it was like there 412 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 2: was this big, cosmic sigh of relief, like thank you, 413 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 2: thank you for finally being honest with me and stopping 414 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,719 Speaker 2: all of this pretending to be somebody that you're not. 415 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 2: Can you just be real? And it all just dropped 416 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 2: in and I felt like, oh my god, that's why, 417 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 2: because I would have just abandoned God. I would have 418 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 2: just walked away and said this God stuff is total 419 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 2: nonsense and I don't want to have anything to do 420 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 2: with it ever again. But I couldn't because I knew 421 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 2: too much. Because I had one moment that I just 422 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 2: could not explain when I was nineteen, and that's what 423 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 2: kind of kept me in a space where I could 424 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 2: still move forward with an authentic version of my fate 425 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 2: and abandon all the rest of the garbage. 426 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 1: Oh God, just this, It's just. 427 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 3: People are going to eat this book up because of 428 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 3: this first hand account of just what you went through 429 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 3: and all of the like levels of pervasiveness that they 430 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 3: had in your life. You had so many opportunities in 431 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 3: your field, acting, singing, all of these opportunities that you had, 432 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 3: and many of them you didn't pursue because of these 433 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 3: cults and those cult leaders or the cult leader the 434 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 3: main one less and they prohibited you from They wanted 435 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 3: your money, but they didn't want you to be too 436 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 3: exposed to other people that may have an influence on 437 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 3: you and call out the fact that this was not 438 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 3: on the up and up. 439 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was one of the craziest things to me. 440 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 4: You think that these people who are motivated by like 441 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 4: using you would want you to take more opportunities. But 442 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 4: I think you're right. It's like keeping you away from 443 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 4: people who might convince you like, hey, there's a bigger 444 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 4: world out there. 445 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I had been out on my own for 446 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,239 Speaker 2: so long, and like, I think they had to do 447 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 2: more work with me because I had so much unusual 448 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 2: backlog of life experience for someone my age of being independent, 449 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 2: being on my own, being in all these different experiences 450 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 2: and connecting deeply with groups of people and then fragmenting 451 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 2: off and then getting involved in another group of people 452 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 2: because that's what theater is. That's what you do for 453 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 2: you know, your two months, your non stop with the 454 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 2: same people, and every job you do, it's like that. 455 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 2: So I think they think he and the Pam character 456 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 2: the sort of mother of the group. I think they 457 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 2: knew in some way that they were going to have 458 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,239 Speaker 2: to really work hard at convincing me how important it 459 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 2: was to be a part of a family and make 460 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 2: that my priority over work. And also I don't think 461 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 2: Les wanted the group to really grow because I think 462 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 2: he was kind of lazy and there's just so much 463 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 2: work involved with so many. 464 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: People drolling people. 465 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, that's got to be exhausting. So I 466 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 2: think he just didn't want me to make too much 467 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 2: money because if I'm out there in the world making 468 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 2: too much money and converting too many people to be 469 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,719 Speaker 2: a part of our little family, then the liability goes up. 470 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 3: So yeah, but those people are all on power trips, 471 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 3: you know what I mean. They want the power, They 472 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 3: love the power, they love the control. So I don't 473 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 3: even know if you can mitigate your desire for power 474 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 3: when you're that much of a narcissist. But maybe because 475 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 3: of you know, you bring up some legal aspects and 476 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 3: you know, like you can't you're not technically accult unless 477 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 3: you're like influencing or damaging more than seventies people's lives 478 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 3: or something. 479 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 1: I think you give us, Yeah, some stats at the end. 480 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 3: In the state of Idaho, how does it work having 481 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 3: a child with someone that you're now separated from in 482 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 3: such a big. 483 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 2: Way, Like, yeah, there are some unique challenges with that. 484 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 2: It's something that I spent some real time considering how 485 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 2: much I wanted to say about that in the book, 486 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 2: because the truth is that they do still have a relationship, 487 00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 2: and so I don't want to I just don't want 488 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 2: to interfere with that. And I don't know him anymore 489 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 2: really really, so I can't say much about him. 490 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 3: And so when you were able, when you did leave finally, 491 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 3: were you scared for your safety? 492 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 2: Definitely the first because you were. 493 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 3: Living in the same state and you had your own 494 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 3: house and they were trying to bully you and intimidate you. 495 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, awful. I was scared because as I started 496 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 2: to accept the fact that this was a cult, a 497 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 2: high demand group. I mean, it took me a minute, 498 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 2: like I really didn't want to admit that that's what 499 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 2: I had been involved in. But once I started to 500 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 2: admit that, then I was like, oh my god, I 501 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 2: know what cults are. 502 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 5: Like. 503 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 2: I used to study scientology when I was in high 504 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 2: school because I was fascinated by it irony. I didn't 505 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 2: remember doing a paper on it once and there, and 506 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 2: I was always kind of interested in the idea of 507 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 2: a cult and how somebody could get sucked into that 508 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 2: careful what you uh? What you what you was for 509 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 2: for studies, I don't know anyway. I knew what the 510 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 2: patterns looked like in a lot of these other groups, 511 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 2: and I really felt this sense of maybe I don't 512 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 2: know how deep this rabbit hole goes with this group, 513 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 2: Like maybe I've only been shown what I've been shown, 514 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 2: and there's so much more under the surface that I've 515 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 2: never been a part of. I was living in North 516 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 2: Carolina for nine months out of the year. There could 517 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 2: have been all kinds of things going on that I 518 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 2: didn't know about. And the buzzword of toxic masculinity could 519 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 2: never have been more true in an environment like this. 520 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 2: I mean these the sense of machismo and how important 521 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 2: it was for the men in the group to feel 522 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 2: like warriors. They had to be warring against something at 523 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,479 Speaker 2: all times, including the women in their life, if there 524 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 2: was nothing else for them to fight against. So since 525 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 2: I knew that their identity was wrapped up in needing 526 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 2: to feel like they were fighting something, I knew they 527 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 2: were going to come out after me. Because I was 528 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 2: now the thing that they all needed to fight against. 529 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 2: And it's I was really scared, I think for about 530 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 2: a year until I saw enough consistent creepy, weird behavior, 531 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 2: but nothing overly aggressive. It's not like the people. It's 532 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 2: not like it was certainly wasn't like scientology where people 533 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 2: get stalked in their home and they're you know, being 534 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 2: threatened in things. 535 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 3: And when you when you started like allowing them, like 536 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 3: to be a co signer on your account, when you 537 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 3: opened up like a joint bank account with the leader 538 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 3: of this cult and you're basically signing your earnings away 539 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 3: to him. 540 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 2: What was with his son? So that was with the 541 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 2: my husband at the time, because he so his I 542 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 2: mean less it's kind of brilliant about not or oh 543 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 2: god that just yes, I didn't still good in my mouth. 544 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 2: He's he's very savvy about how to keep his name 545 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 2: off of things, how to get people to give him 546 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 2: what he wants, about having to put his name on it. 547 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 3: I mean so yeah, So that joint bank account was 548 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 3: with your ex husband who was his son? Yes, okay, 549 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 3: So did you ever tell anyone in your real life 550 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 3: that you did that or did you keep that a secret? 551 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 2: I mean, my business manager, my former business manager who 552 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 2: I was transferring the funds away from. 553 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: And what did they say to you? 554 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,679 Speaker 2: We're like, Joe, I think this is a mistake, Like 555 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 2: I really, these people are not qualified to take care 556 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 2: of your money. They don't have the experience. Come a 557 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 2: little worried about you. But they weren't my close friends. 558 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 2: They were right people that I had hired, So what 559 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 2: else would I expect them to do? Like they I 560 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 2: think he even went on a limb out on a 561 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:51,120 Speaker 2: limb saying that much so and I felt it too. 562 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 2: I'm just having this visceral memory of being in his 563 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 2: office in New York too. I remember feeling it and 564 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 2: feeling like he was right, and also knowing the day 565 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 2: to day verbal and mental abuse that I was living 566 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 2: in and how much relief I was going to get 567 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 2: by moving this money because I just wouldn't be berated 568 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 2: every day anymore about that. 569 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 6: The pressure would be off of letting them control. You're exactly, yeah, 570 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 6: I could. I could just let them handle it. And 571 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 6: it was like, fine, if this will make you stop 572 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,199 Speaker 6: yelling at me every day, if this will make us 573 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 6: stop fighting, then yes, go ahead. You be in charge 574 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 6: of the money. You be in charge of the money, honey, 575 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 6: and I will go to work. 576 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 3: Because you don't talk about that a lot in the book, 577 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 3: like there's obviously the control happening, but it didn't. 578 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: I didn't get the impression that. 579 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 3: You were being yelled at or berated on a daily basis. 580 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 3: With your ex you kind of you talk about that, 581 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 3: but with Less and Pam and Kurt and all those guys, 582 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 3: it seemed much more manipulative rather than on the face 583 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 3: rage or yeah right. 584 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 2: So, yeah, I may not have been clear just now. 585 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 2: What I meant was that the day to day that 586 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 2: I was living with in my marriage, of the constant conflict. 587 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 3: Controlling reading your scripts, being not allowing you to do 588 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 3: scenes with men, not allowing you to rehearse with men, 589 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 3: go out to dinner with any of your cast members, 590 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 3: that were then right. 591 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and everything I wore, not even on the show, 592 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 2: but in real life too, just every aspect of my 593 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 2: life was under a microscope and controlled. And money was 594 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 2: one of the one of the biggest topics that we 595 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 2: would fight about all the time. And I was just like, yeah, 596 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 2: I wanted to spend three hundred and fifty dollars at 597 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 2: J Crew. It's not a big deal. Why is this 598 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 2: a two hour conversation? And it became so much of 599 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 2: that that I was like, there are so many other 600 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 2: things that were fighting about all the time. If the 601 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 2: money will alleviate a lot of this stress, then go 602 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 2: ahead and be in charge of the money. 603 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 3: So when you get out of a cult and you 604 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 3: realize that they have drained your bank account, you had 605 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,479 Speaker 3: two hundred and twenty thousand dollars I think left at 606 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,959 Speaker 3: the end, and you realize there was two million missing. 607 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 3: So that's one set of problems. You have a child, 608 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 3: that's another issue. How does one move on? Like what 609 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 3: kind of therapy did you go into when you left 610 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 3: this cult? 611 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 2: Multiple? Multiple, And even therapy was hard because I had 612 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 2: just spent ten years in an environment where I was 613 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 2: quote unquote going to therapy every week with my church leader, 614 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 2: my group leader, both of them actually last and Pam 615 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:48,239 Speaker 2: couples therapy, individual therapy, group therapy in the basement like 616 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 2: it was all and so even being able to trust 617 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 2: a therapist walking into an office and not like it 618 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 2: was real work to a let myself to trust someone 619 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 2: that was a total stranger based on maybe a friend's 620 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 2: reference or a diploma on the wall that was that 621 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 2: was its own journey, and I did go through a 622 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 2: few different therapists before I found somebody that I really 623 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 2: just felt in my gut, and they probably all were trustworthy, 624 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 2: but I finally did find someone that I really connected with. 625 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 2: But it was so it was so difficult, and even 626 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 2: paying for it was hard because I left with two 627 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 2: hundred and twenty thousand dollars, but it all ended up 628 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 2: going into my divorce and my rent. Within two years 629 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 2: it was gone and I had I was upside down 630 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 2: on my mortgage. We had to do a short sale, 631 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 2: but there was another house that I had to take 632 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 2: on debt for the retirement account got split and half 633 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 2: like there was so much that I couldn't I couldn't 634 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 2: pay rent. There were months when I didn't know how 635 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 2: I was going to pay rent and I had to 636 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 2: call my landlord and be like, can you wup me 637 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 2: till next month? Is this going to be okay? 638 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: Oh God? 639 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 2: Which is just so crazy, or nine years on a 640 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 2: series and it was really humbling. It was really really hard. 641 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 2: But I feel like I learned so much about joy 642 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 2: in the midst of suffering. 643 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 3: Where did you find that joy? In the midst of suffering. 644 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 3: When were those moments. 645 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 2: Those moments were in They were in the little things. 646 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 2: It was just a day to day. And it's one 647 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 2: of the things where I say my faith has become 648 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 2: the most authentic version of it for me, because rather 649 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 2: than feeling like I was going to achieve some sense 650 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 2: of peace by doing a bunch of things the right way, 651 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 2: I got to just live in a place of abandon 652 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 2: like I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm 653 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 2: not gonna I refuse to allow this to make me 654 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 2: more anxious, more stressed, more like more confined in my life. 655 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 2: I've been confined for the last ten years and probably 656 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 2: the ten before that growing are you joining before that? 657 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 2: Growing up? So I don't want to live confined anymore. 658 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 2: I want to be free. So how do I be 659 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 2: free while I have all of these outside circumstances confining me? 660 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 2: And it was really it was really interesting, the little 661 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 2: moments were looking at the I actually just posted a 662 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 2: poem about this today, a poem that I wrote. When 663 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 2: we were living in Studio City, we had this little apartment. 664 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 2: It was a house. It was like a two bedroom, 665 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 2: little bungalow house on the corner behind the oyster bar, 666 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 2: which was just a total I mean at the parking 667 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 2: lot at two am, Like I remember, I would always 668 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 2: scream up the window. Dane Cook was outside my window 669 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 2: one time at the oyster Bar in the parking lot. 670 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 2: I just knew that voice, and I was opening up 671 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 2: my window, like, go home, home, and there's children sleeping. 672 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 2: But we had They had a dumpster in their parking 673 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 2: lot that they would leave the flap open all the 674 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 2: time and it would hang over into my backyard lovely, 675 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 2: and it used to make me so mad. I would 676 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 2: go out there in the morning with a broomstick and 677 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 2: shove that lit over and like, h my life and 678 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 2: what these people did to me. And little by little 679 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 2: we had a rose bush, and the rose bush started growing, 680 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,360 Speaker 2: and eventually it got so big and high that you 681 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 2: couldn't see the dumpster lid when it came over. And 682 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,280 Speaker 2: that's how slow it grows. It wasn't an overnight thing. 683 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,879 Speaker 2: But I learned moment by moment how to just slow 684 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 2: down and appreciate the things that I do have. I 685 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 2: learned there's nothing that says I'm entitled to a perfect, happy, 686 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 2: golden little life. I get to be happy with where 687 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 2: I am and what I have, and I don't. I'm 688 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 2: not entitled to not suffer that I'm human. Things are 689 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 2: going to happen. Wow. How can I be at piece 690 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 2: when no matter, I mean, when. 691 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: Growing over your dumpster? 692 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 2: That's it. 693 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: And Dane Cook is no longer in your parking lot? 694 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: Thank god. That is a nightmare. 695 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 3: Okay, we're gonna take a break and we're gonna come 696 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 3: back with Bethany Joy Lens. Okay, and we're back. Okay, 697 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 3: Joy Joy, you go by Joy. My middle name is 698 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 3: Joy also, so we know. 699 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 2: That double Joy. 700 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 3: So we have a double Joy today. Thank you so 701 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 3: much for sharing that. This book is incredible. Everyone's going 702 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 3: to want to read it. It really is important. I 703 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 3: think every woman should read this, because every every girl, 704 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 3: I mean, I know boys are susceptible too, but obviously 705 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:33,760 Speaker 3: my main concern are women. 706 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, young girls. 707 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 5: Thank you. 708 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 4: Well, I think we have a perfect question for you. 709 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 4: We have Mariah on the line, and she'll be joining 710 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:45,919 Speaker 4: us here in a moment, she says, Dear Chelsea, last year, 711 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 4: just a couple of days before my thirtieth birthday, I 712 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 4: got the call I had been expecting for some time 713 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,280 Speaker 4: from my mother, who informed me she was quote unquote 714 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 4: parting ways with me. My parents both work for the 715 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 4: Church of Scientology, as well as my siblings. There's an 716 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 4: episode in Leah Remeni's TV show about the Seattle Church 717 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 4: of Scientology which covers a document my father wrote about 718 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,280 Speaker 4: how to get money from parishioners. I really can't emphasize 719 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 4: enough how deeply involved my family is. My parents felt 720 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 4: the need to disown me after I left Scientology, but 721 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 4: that's because it's one of the church rules. My mom 722 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,800 Speaker 4: had been holding out on disconnecting from me for a while, 723 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 4: but I could see her growing more distant over the 724 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 4: last year, so I did know it was coming. As 725 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 4: I reached out to try and keep a connection alive 726 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 4: with her. She eventually stopped responding, but then at the 727 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 4: end of October she finally called and told me. I'm 728 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,240 Speaker 4: still doing a lot of work to recover and deprogram myself, 729 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,879 Speaker 4: but I feel so devastated for my mom. I could 730 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 4: hear over the phone that my mom was crying and 731 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,439 Speaker 4: reading from a script in front of another person who 732 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 4: was monitoring our call. I hate that the hard life 733 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 4: she had landed her in a cult. She's now been 734 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 4: in for nearly forty five years, and she felt like 735 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 4: she had to cut me off despite us having an 736 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 4: otherwise very good relationship. Of course, I'm also so angry 737 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:58,359 Speaker 4: and hurt that my own family would do. 738 00:36:58,320 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 5: This to me. 739 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 4: I missed my so much, but I don't want to 740 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 4: cross the boundary she's set. But I also want her 741 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:05,800 Speaker 4: to know if she can come to me if she needs. 742 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 4: I'm successful in my own right and I have no 743 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 4: plans on having kids, so I keep a spare bedroom 744 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 4: available just in case my siblings or my mom managed 745 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 4: to escape and need to go somewhere. The holidays are 746 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 4: coming up and we won't spend them together, and I 747 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:18,880 Speaker 4: don't know if I should reach out or if I 748 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 4: should just focus on protecting myself and just move on. 749 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 5: Do you have any advice? 750 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 4: Sincerely, Mariah? 751 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: Oh h II, I'm Mariah. 752 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 2: I'm Mariah. 753 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:27,879 Speaker 4: Hi. 754 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 5: Nice to meet you, guys. 755 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 2: It's great to meet you too. 756 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: Nice to meet you too. What do you think about that? Joy? 757 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 2: This breaks my heart. You don't deserve Mariah. You do 758 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 2: not deserve that, and nobody does. That is not okay, 759 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 2: It's not okay. I guess I would say that maintaining 760 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 2: any kind of contact. I guess it's what feels authentic 761 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 2: to you. I don't know that there's a hard and 762 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 2: fast rule. If you have it, then you even a 763 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 2: thread of it to be able to still Happy birthday, 764 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 2: thinking about you, Mom, Love you, Merry Christmas. Dropped off 765 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,839 Speaker 2: some flowers for you. I hope you enjoy them, Like 766 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 2: if you had that in you, if you can find 767 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 2: that place, that would be beautiful, and I think that 768 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 2: would be meaningful. But you're not obligated if you can't 769 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,840 Speaker 2: if you don't have that capability, like you are not 770 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:30,759 Speaker 2: responsible for saving your mother. So it's I think it's 771 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 2: got to be from what is going to feel for you, 772 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,200 Speaker 2: like what you need to do? 773 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 1: What are you Mariah? What are you doing? 774 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 5: Like? 775 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:41,840 Speaker 1: How are you coping? 776 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,319 Speaker 3: What are you doing for yourself to help yourself get 777 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 3: through being excommunicated from your own family? 778 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 5: Yeah, I see a therapist, but I kind of like 779 00:38:55,400 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 5: mentally left before this happened. And it was a balance 780 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 5: of like, Okay, how much do I don't I tell 781 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 5: my parents about my life and just being honest and 782 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 5: stuff about everything going on in my life, But it 783 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:19,440 Speaker 5: really is just my mom like that I wonder about 784 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 5: and so I talked to my therapist about this a lot, 785 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 5: and I'm kind of just still dealing with it my 786 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 5: journal and stuff and just still trying to figure out 787 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 5: everything about how to move forward and what I took 788 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:41,360 Speaker 5: from this that's bad and good, you know. So I 789 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,600 Speaker 5: don't know if I answered your question good enough, but 790 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,399 Speaker 5: I'm just trying to kind of make my way through. 791 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 2: Can I I have a question? And I also want 792 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 2: to tell you, like, because my mom stayed in relationship 793 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,200 Speaker 2: with me by not asking too many questions I pushing 794 00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:58,839 Speaker 2: too hard. She just kind of like kind of stayed 795 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 2: on the surface, knowing that eventually I was going to 796 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 2: come around. But my dad was different and became estranged. 797 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,839 Speaker 2: I did essentially to him what your mom has done 798 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:15,919 Speaker 2: to you, and I, even in my delusion, I never 799 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 2: stopped loving my dad. They lied to me. They tried 800 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,799 Speaker 2: to make me believe terrible things about my father that 801 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 2: were not true. And even as I was trying to 802 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 2: like navigate through that, he started sending me letters, handwritten letters. 803 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 2: He started sending me photos of my little brother and 804 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 2: birthday parties and what was happening in life. And they 805 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 2: used to make me really angry. I used to not 806 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,840 Speaker 2: want to read them. I didn't want to deal with 807 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:45,439 Speaker 2: the emotions that they brought up, but it it made 808 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 2: a difference for me, like it did when I got out. 809 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 2: I knew he was there. I knew I was going 810 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:51,879 Speaker 2: to have to make one hard phone call, to pick 811 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 2: up the phone and call and say, hey, Dad, I'm 812 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,799 Speaker 2: really sorry. It's been six years, but I did it. 813 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:02,240 Speaker 2: And you know that's that's possible. But at the same time, 814 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,800 Speaker 2: that's not to say that again, you're not responsible for 815 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 2: her journey, but that just something. But my question, if 816 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 2: it's okay, do you feel comfortable telling us what your 817 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,760 Speaker 2: what advice your therapist has given you, because I haven't. 818 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 2: I haven't been put in a position to give advice 819 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:19,919 Speaker 2: much other than like one on one if I see 820 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,080 Speaker 2: people and they're asking me. But this is new for me, 821 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 2: so I would love to know what that advice is, 822 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:25,320 Speaker 2: if you're okay with sharing. 823 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 5: Yeah. Well, first of all, I just finished reading your 824 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:34,480 Speaker 5: book and it's really good, So I think your story 825 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 5: is incredible. Just for the record, and I did get 826 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,839 Speaker 5: kind of emotional hearing you talk about your dad because 827 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 5: I listened to the audiobook, which was definitely good with 828 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,880 Speaker 5: it hear your voice and get your take on what 829 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:54,320 Speaker 5: you went through. But yeah, that is something that I 830 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 5: exactly talk to my therapist about. Is like, Okay, so 831 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,719 Speaker 5: I feel bad that my mom is in this, but 832 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,919 Speaker 5: also I was born into it. I didn't have any 833 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 5: choices and she made choices. And am I being you know, 834 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 5: am I being delusional that it's like it was our 835 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 5: relationship actually what I thought it was? And did all 836 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 5: the rules that I was taught growing up actually come 837 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 5: from her place of like I think this is right 838 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,279 Speaker 5: versus I'm told to tell you this, you know, and 839 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 5: this is what I've been led to believe. But yeah, 840 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 5: the advice my therapist is given is to just try 841 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 5: to move on and try to accept that I might 842 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 5: never hear from her. She's been in it for longer 843 00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 5: than I've been alive, So she has been an ally 844 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 5: of scientology longer than she has been my mother. So 845 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:57,719 Speaker 5: that's something that is like, realistically, yeah, if you're going 846 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 5: to get past that, you have to leave a very 847 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,719 Speaker 5: powerful cults, one of the more powerful ones, and like 848 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,640 Speaker 5: that's not super realistic. And then there's like my siblings 849 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,440 Speaker 5: and my dad, Like my dad is almost sort of 850 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:15,760 Speaker 5: the less type of person to compare it to your 851 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:21,279 Speaker 5: wow situation. Yeah, and so he's a narcissist. He is 852 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,799 Speaker 5: really good at getting people to give money to Scientology 853 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:26,239 Speaker 5: done to lots of people what last did to you 854 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,200 Speaker 5: in terms of like money management and stuff like that. 855 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 5: So my mom sees their relationship as the greater good. 856 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 5: She's helping the world be better by supporting him. So 857 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,680 Speaker 5: she's like the breadwinner. She's kind of been supporting my 858 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,359 Speaker 5: dad my whole life while he works for the Church 859 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,919 Speaker 5: of Scientology and she works part time for the Church 860 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 5: of Scientology. 861 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:52,440 Speaker 2: So just to give you. 862 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:57,680 Speaker 5: Some context of why my dad's not I'm not interested 863 00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:02,280 Speaker 5: in being in my life, you know what I mean. So, Yeah, 864 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,319 Speaker 5: my therapist and they mostly talk about just kind of 865 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:09,919 Speaker 5: moving on from this and if she ever does reach out, 866 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:11,439 Speaker 5: like just take it from there. 867 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:12,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. 868 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,319 Speaker 3: And also to be able to remind yourself that this 869 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:19,080 Speaker 3: isn't really who your mother is. You know, it's almost 870 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:21,960 Speaker 3: like dealing with an addict where you have to remember 871 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,640 Speaker 3: that they're on a drug and that this isn't a 872 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,239 Speaker 3: reflection of how she really feels about you. You know 873 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:29,960 Speaker 3: that she was upset during that phone call. You know 874 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,359 Speaker 3: that she was being monitored during that phone call. We 875 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,719 Speaker 3: all know all of these things that cults do to 876 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:38,799 Speaker 3: their cult members, but to remember that, Like, it's so 877 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,320 Speaker 3: sad what you've experienced and what you're still going through, 878 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 3: and I totally I can feel you, you know, but 879 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,880 Speaker 3: that's not who your mother really is, and that's not 880 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:49,759 Speaker 3: a reflection. 881 00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:51,920 Speaker 1: Of her love for you. Your mother does love you. 882 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,000 Speaker 3: I believe that you know that she loved you because 883 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,560 Speaker 3: she was so upset during that phone call, and you 884 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,279 Speaker 3: know that that is the drug making her do that, 885 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:07,799 Speaker 3: and as painful as that is, you can't have that 886 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:12,359 Speaker 3: in your life unless she has the gumption to leave 887 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,879 Speaker 3: the church at some point, and like you said, she's 888 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,560 Speaker 3: been in there for forty five years, that is very unlikely. 889 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:22,560 Speaker 3: So what you do have to do is try to 890 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,520 Speaker 3: make peace with the idea that you did have a 891 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:30,560 Speaker 3: family they're not themselves in this current state, that you 892 00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:34,719 Speaker 3: did experience tons of love and joy, and take a 893 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,520 Speaker 3: lot of pride in the fact that you were able 894 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,640 Speaker 3: to remove yourself from a situation that puts you at 895 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,799 Speaker 3: odds with your family because you were standing up for 896 00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,480 Speaker 3: what you know is right. Yeah, and that that wasn't 897 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,000 Speaker 3: for you and that is really ballsy and really brave, 898 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,360 Speaker 3: and as heartbreaking as it is, that is what is 899 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 3: going to carry you forward to the rest of your 900 00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,320 Speaker 3: life so that you can pursue a successful life. You 901 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,840 Speaker 3: could have a success cessful romantic relationship with whomever you want. 902 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:04,240 Speaker 1: You can have your. 903 00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,680 Speaker 3: Own family, and you have to carry on like these 904 00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:11,440 Speaker 3: people aren't going to leave scientology because the likelihood is slim, 905 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 3: but it's never You never know. 906 00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:16,160 Speaker 1: It could happen, but you just can't count on it happening. 907 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:19,279 Speaker 3: And I think you should get up every day and 908 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:21,719 Speaker 3: think about the things that you have in your life 909 00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,839 Speaker 3: that you're grateful for and write them down, you know, 910 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,359 Speaker 3: every morning, write down the ten things that you have 911 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:29,920 Speaker 3: that you are your own, and those things can be 912 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:32,000 Speaker 3: that you had the goodwill and the good sense to 913 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:32,840 Speaker 3: get out of a cult. 914 00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:35,200 Speaker 1: You know, I got myself out of it. 915 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,719 Speaker 3: I'm standing here on my own two feet without any 916 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:41,360 Speaker 3: of them because I had the presence of mind to 917 00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:45,319 Speaker 3: do something better for myself. Don't diminish any of the 918 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,120 Speaker 3: gains that you made by getting out of that. 919 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,600 Speaker 2: That is great advice. And also think about this as 920 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:57,080 Speaker 2: an opportunity because there are older women who are brilliant 921 00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,400 Speaker 2: mentors who can step into that role for you and 922 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,560 Speaker 2: be a friend and be nobody's ever going to replace 923 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:07,640 Speaker 2: your mother. But I think that as I was just 924 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,359 Speaker 2: saying before, you know, there's no sort of like get 925 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,560 Speaker 2: out of suffering free card. We all have something that 926 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,360 Speaker 2: we encounter that's just like, how am I going to 927 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,000 Speaker 2: get through this? What am I going to do? And 928 00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:24,520 Speaker 2: there is opportunity in every one of those moments. And 929 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:27,759 Speaker 2: there may be somebody out there who you're going to 930 00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,800 Speaker 2: encounter that you never would have encountered if this hadn't happened, 931 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:32,960 Speaker 2: and they need you in their life and you need 932 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:36,520 Speaker 2: them in your life, maybe multiple people you don't know. 933 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,120 Speaker 2: So while that doesn't wipe away the pain, and you 934 00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:42,200 Speaker 2: still can hold that pain and process through it as 935 00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,640 Speaker 2: you need to, there is opportunity and there are really 936 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,080 Speaker 2: good things that can come from hardship. 937 00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:50,839 Speaker 1: How did you decide to leave scientology? 938 00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:55,840 Speaker 5: That's it probably, I think anyone who leaves a cult, 939 00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,520 Speaker 5: there's not like a single moment that they like just 940 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:06,640 Speaker 5: decide I've a light, you know, it's usually a ton 941 00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:10,120 Speaker 5: of moments. But for me, I mean the silver lining 942 00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,279 Speaker 5: of being born into it was that my parents were 943 00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:18,360 Speaker 5: quite busy with it and quite neglectful, so I was 944 00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:20,479 Speaker 5: sort of left to my own devices most of the time. 945 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:26,040 Speaker 5: I read the Internet. I got an education because I 946 00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:30,960 Speaker 5: eventually had to start working like retail jobs to just 947 00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:32,800 Speaker 5: like having money for food and stuff. When I was 948 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,719 Speaker 5: a teenager, and I was like, well, I want a 949 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,920 Speaker 5: better life than what a retail job can give me, 950 00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,680 Speaker 5: you know. So I went to school and that was 951 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:45,960 Speaker 5: sort of the beginning of the deprogramming. That was how 952 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:51,960 Speaker 5: I kind of learned how to determine if something is 953 00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:54,440 Speaker 5: real or not when the claim is made. That is 954 00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:58,520 Speaker 5: how I learned how to, Like I got, I got 955 00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:00,640 Speaker 5: a science degree, so I learned a lot about how 956 00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:04,360 Speaker 5: science works and what is and isn't science. So for me, 957 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:08,480 Speaker 5: that's that was how it went down, because it's scientology 958 00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:12,160 Speaker 5: is not really a sort of god type religion. It's 959 00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,200 Speaker 5: like it's barely a religion. 960 00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,399 Speaker 2: It's like more about, oh. 961 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:19,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, if you do A B and C, this will happen. 962 00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:23,880 Speaker 5: But then there's actually no real evidence, no real anything 963 00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:24,960 Speaker 5: but claims. 964 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:29,239 Speaker 2: You're amazing, that's such a great story the progression of. 965 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,120 Speaker 1: That, And how did you tell your parents you were leaving. 966 00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:36,799 Speaker 5: I actually didn't. Someone thought that I was following some 967 00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,319 Speaker 5: people on Twitter I'm not supposed to follow and they 968 00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:45,359 Speaker 5: reported me. So then my dad, because he's like one 969 00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:49,240 Speaker 5: of the leaders, he got the report and he called 970 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,600 Speaker 5: me and was like, hey, we need to talk. And 971 00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,160 Speaker 5: uh so my parents scheduled a few meetings with me 972 00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,080 Speaker 5: to talk about my thoughts and what they wanted me 973 00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:00,799 Speaker 5: to do, and I kind I just had to stay 974 00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,360 Speaker 5: my boundaries over and over again, like yeah. 975 00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:05,560 Speaker 2: You guys can't defy this for me. 976 00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,040 Speaker 5: I'm not going to unfollow someone just because you want 977 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:08,279 Speaker 5: me to. 978 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:16,839 Speaker 2: Wow. Oh good for you. Yeah, that's incredible, it really is. 979 00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:18,960 Speaker 5: I'm just gonna let my dog outside of this room 980 00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:19,680 Speaker 5: real quick. 981 00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,320 Speaker 4: Okay, sure, I'm really glad she has a dog. 982 00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:22,719 Speaker 5: I know. 983 00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's one of the things that you're going 984 00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:27,319 Speaker 3: to write down that you're grateful for, is your dog 985 00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:32,759 Speaker 3: every morning. When we talk about these gratitude like journaling 986 00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,920 Speaker 3: and gratitude lists, like to all of our listeners, it 987 00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:36,800 Speaker 3: could be anything. 988 00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,160 Speaker 1: It can be like it can be material things. 989 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,080 Speaker 3: It could be your sofa, it can be your personality, 990 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:44,800 Speaker 3: it can be someone else, it can be your friend. 991 00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,239 Speaker 3: Like when I'm saying to write down things, like some 992 00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:49,400 Speaker 3: people people always ask me, They're like, well, what if 993 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:53,160 Speaker 3: it's materialistic, that's okay. Just write down ten things that 994 00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,440 Speaker 3: you're grateful for. You know, your sensibility can be one 995 00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:58,799 Speaker 3: of the things. Your dog can be another thing. The 996 00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:01,840 Speaker 3: house that you're staying in, the apartment that you're renting, whatever, 997 00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:05,040 Speaker 3: it is, your job, and I just slowly want you 998 00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,840 Speaker 3: to get yourself to a place where of acceptance rather 999 00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,239 Speaker 3: than grief, because of course you're going to feel grief 1000 00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:13,440 Speaker 3: for a really long time. But if you can get 1001 00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:16,840 Speaker 3: to a place of acceptance and understanding that this really 1002 00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:21,240 Speaker 3: has very little to do with you. Unfortunately, however personal 1003 00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,520 Speaker 3: it feels. I know, it's your mother and you're it 1004 00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,360 Speaker 3: must feel like a huge rejection. But when you really 1005 00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:29,560 Speaker 3: look at it from an outside perspective, these people have 1006 00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:33,359 Speaker 3: been infected with ideas and thoughts and and you have 1007 00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:35,319 Speaker 3: the good sense not to have been. 1008 00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:39,239 Speaker 5: Yeah. I mean, one of the things that Joy you 1009 00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:44,879 Speaker 5: talked about in your book was these moments of like, oh, 1010 00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:48,560 Speaker 5: I didn't feel right about that, But then I was like, well, 1011 00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,840 Speaker 5: I'm being cynical or I'm being you know, a problem 1012 00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,840 Speaker 5: in some way, I'm not having a generous mindset here 1013 00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:01,440 Speaker 5: and the aftermath of all this has been like realizing 1014 00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,640 Speaker 5: those moments and you're like, wait, I did know, Like 1015 00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:08,279 Speaker 5: I was smart enough to see this stuff the whole time, 1016 00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:13,520 Speaker 5: and I just kept telling myself what I needed to 1017 00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,840 Speaker 5: survive because I needed the group that I mean, I 1018 00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:20,760 Speaker 5: ay went to a scientology school, like very very insulated. 1019 00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:24,640 Speaker 5: I didn't know anyone else until I happened to get 1020 00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,359 Speaker 5: a job working at a grocery store, you know, so 1021 00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:30,799 Speaker 5: that was my first exposure to non scientologists. 1022 00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,560 Speaker 2: So that was your attachment those are that was that. 1023 00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:35,879 Speaker 2: As I was saying earlier, we were talking about what 1024 00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:41,200 Speaker 2: made me susceptible was attachment, which is something I've realized recently. 1025 00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:43,240 Speaker 2: I was always saying it was a need for family. 1026 00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,640 Speaker 2: But I had a great conversation with doctor Romney Derivstula. 1027 00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:47,960 Speaker 2: I don't know if you know who she is, but 1028 00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:52,240 Speaker 2: she's a great person to follow for you, dtr Romeny, 1029 00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,759 Speaker 2: and she was she really clarified it was it was attachment. 1030 00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,560 Speaker 2: That's what I was looking for, and that was it 1031 00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:01,000 Speaker 2: sounds like that was what you're attached was too, And 1032 00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:04,000 Speaker 2: it's a I think it's a really natural thing for 1033 00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:08,920 Speaker 2: us to override the things that we feel gutturally because 1034 00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:13,840 Speaker 2: of a deeply felt, very human neat We all need attachment. 1035 00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:17,000 Speaker 2: We're built for community, even from like caveman days, like 1036 00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:21,240 Speaker 2: they are built for community. So that need is really 1037 00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:26,279 Speaker 2: really valuable and really hard to push away. When your 1038 00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:29,799 Speaker 2: little red flags are going off, it's like your gut 1039 00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:31,200 Speaker 2: or your heart, what do you listen to? 1040 00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:37,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, especially when you're like eight, it's like yeah, 1041 00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:40,560 Speaker 5: or in your case, you were raised Christian and so 1042 00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:43,960 Speaker 5: now you have this other Christian mindset that is being 1043 00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:47,040 Speaker 5: double reinforced because you learned about Christianity and childhood. 1044 00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, but I mean think about your situation. You were 1045 00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,360 Speaker 3: born into this, this is all you were ever taught, 1046 00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:58,319 Speaker 3: and you had sense enough to extricate yourself from it 1047 00:53:58,400 --> 00:53:59,640 Speaker 3: once you got educated. 1048 00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:04,240 Speaker 1: Like that is so brave and bold and baldy, Like you. 1049 00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:07,799 Speaker 3: Have a huge, bright future ahead of you, and I 1050 00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:09,880 Speaker 3: want you to just start to lean into that. 1051 00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:12,040 Speaker 1: You can't skip past grief. 1052 00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,759 Speaker 3: You have to experience the loss, and it's a huge loss. 1053 00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:18,960 Speaker 1: But you're not wrong, You're right. 1054 00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:21,600 Speaker 3: You know you did the right thing, and you can't 1055 00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:24,280 Speaker 3: control what your mom's going to do, but you can 1056 00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:27,839 Speaker 3: go out there and live a life in honor of 1057 00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:31,760 Speaker 3: your good sense and in honor of what your mother's life. 1058 00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:32,160 Speaker 1: Could have been. 1059 00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:33,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's beautiful. 1060 00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:36,919 Speaker 5: I think a lot about what my mom's life could 1061 00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:40,640 Speaker 5: have been because she joined up with Scientology when she 1062 00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:44,479 Speaker 5: was like nineteen or twenty or something, and it's such 1063 00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:49,040 Speaker 5: a vulnerable time in people's lives, and they got her 1064 00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:53,279 Speaker 5: and she married a guy. And you know, I got 1065 00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:59,560 Speaker 5: this dog the day after my mom called me and yeah, 1066 00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,719 Speaker 5: I heard you say, Chelsea, it's gonna have a dog. Yeah, 1067 00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,600 Speaker 5: that was exactly what I was like, you know what 1068 00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:07,239 Speaker 5: I've always wanted to that, let's get on. 1069 00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:09,800 Speaker 1: You got that dog. 1070 00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:14,640 Speaker 4: And they always know what's your guy's name? 1071 00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:16,240 Speaker 2: His name is Poe. 1072 00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:22,360 Speaker 5: Yeah, cutie. But yeah, I've been like kind of numb 1073 00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:26,880 Speaker 5: this last year. I really didn't This timing of this 1074 00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:32,919 Speaker 5: was actually quite crazy because I didn't process and even 1075 00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:38,080 Speaker 5: cry about this until last week because I was I 1076 00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,920 Speaker 5: was just so numbed out. You know, it felt like 1077 00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:44,960 Speaker 5: surreal too, but it just kind of hit me, like, 1078 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,640 Speaker 5: you know the way that everyone when you realize how 1079 00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:52,160 Speaker 5: everyone on the outside has seen you this whole time, 1080 00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:56,520 Speaker 5: and how everyone who you thought like was judging you 1081 00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:02,200 Speaker 5: for being weird, was like just really concerned and scared 1082 00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:07,400 Speaker 5: for you, And that almost made me feel more emotional 1083 00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:12,160 Speaker 5: than anything else, Like whoa. And then also just realizing 1084 00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:16,480 Speaker 5: my dad, how like my dad is actually and like 1085 00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:20,160 Speaker 5: as opposed to the story I was told of who 1086 00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:22,960 Speaker 5: he is. I was told he's like this wonderful person 1087 00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:27,440 Speaker 5: and everyone looks up to him, and I was told 1088 00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:29,799 Speaker 5: constantly how lucky I was to have him as a dad. 1089 00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:34,000 Speaker 5: But meanwhile, like I would get his you know, wrath 1090 00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:38,360 Speaker 5: at home and stuff like that. So start of processing 1091 00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:42,160 Speaker 5: all of this as far as like, oh, my reality 1092 00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:46,400 Speaker 5: is now different, Like I went from one reality and 1093 00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:48,759 Speaker 5: I'm now in a different one. And it's really just 1094 00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:52,640 Speaker 5: been like a week And like the day after I 1095 00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:54,799 Speaker 5: cried about it for the first time was when I 1096 00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:57,920 Speaker 5: got an email from Captine. So it's quite crazy timing 1097 00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:00,520 Speaker 5: is that I just got a chill. This was only 1098 00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:06,320 Speaker 5: a week ago that I like first cried about it. Yeah, 1099 00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:09,960 Speaker 5: it was a year ago that my mom called me. Yeah. 1100 00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:13,240 Speaker 2: The analogy Chelsea that you just gave about addiction, actually 1101 00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:17,720 Speaker 2: I think is so brilliant because that is so similar 1102 00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:21,600 Speaker 2: to the behavior of somebody that just checks out because 1103 00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:24,800 Speaker 2: they it's almost like a disease in your mind. You're 1104 00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:26,600 Speaker 2: just that's all you know how to do, and that's 1105 00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:29,560 Speaker 2: what they're seeking attachment in a certain way, and they 1106 00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:34,000 Speaker 2: don't know how to overcome it. I actually found going 1107 00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:38,400 Speaker 2: to alan On to be very helpful in my cult 1108 00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:42,840 Speaker 2: recovery stuff, like I have addiction in my family lineage 1109 00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:46,000 Speaker 2: that manifested in codependence and all different kinds of things 1110 00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:50,000 Speaker 2: in my life. But I was really surprised how going 1111 00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:53,640 Speaker 2: to alan On was was really really helpful because so 1112 00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:55,920 Speaker 2: much of the behavior is similar. 1113 00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:59,439 Speaker 3: So yeah, I think there's a lot of online ex 1114 00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:03,280 Speaker 3: scientificogy support groups. Oh yeah, I think you should definitely 1115 00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:05,760 Speaker 3: look and try and find one of those if you want, 1116 00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,000 Speaker 3: I can ask Lea Remenee, she's a good friend of mine, 1117 00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:11,400 Speaker 3: because I think what you're experiencing is just so unique 1118 00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:14,320 Speaker 3: that you want other people who have also been through 1119 00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:17,800 Speaker 3: the same thing specific to scientology, and I think you'll 1120 00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:19,520 Speaker 3: find a lot of comfort there and a lot of 1121 00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:21,800 Speaker 3: like mindedness and that will make you feel a little 1122 00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:26,480 Speaker 3: bit less isolated and alone during this time. So definitely 1123 00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:29,920 Speaker 3: do that and also keep crying, like that's how you 1124 00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:33,800 Speaker 3: get this anguish and grief out. So I understand that 1125 00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:36,320 Speaker 3: you didn't cry for a year and now you are crying, 1126 00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:38,360 Speaker 3: and you're going to be crying. But it doesn't mean 1127 00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:40,240 Speaker 3: you're going to be crying all day every day. It 1128 00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:42,160 Speaker 3: means when you feel it coming on, let it out, 1129 00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:45,040 Speaker 3: let it move through you, and then you know an 1130 00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:47,400 Speaker 3: hour later you'll be doing something and you'll find yourself 1131 00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:49,560 Speaker 3: laughing or having a good time doing something. 1132 00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:52,760 Speaker 1: But don't be scared of grieving. It's part of the process. 1133 00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:55,320 Speaker 4: And Maria, will you check back in with us in 1134 00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:57,480 Speaker 4: a few months, Yeah, check. 1135 00:58:57,320 --> 00:58:57,840 Speaker 1: Back in with us. 1136 00:58:57,880 --> 00:58:59,600 Speaker 3: I'm going to get that info from Leah if she 1137 00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:03,400 Speaker 3: knows of any like support groups personally, and then yeah, 1138 00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:05,520 Speaker 3: keep in touch with us, Okay, because you know, I 1139 00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:07,400 Speaker 3: just want you to remember you're very lovable. 1140 00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:10,280 Speaker 2: Thanks. Yeah, you're really awesome. 1141 00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:12,800 Speaker 3: You're lovable. So start you're gonna write. Start writing those 1142 00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:17,960 Speaker 3: ten things down every morning too when you wake up. Okay, Okay, Okay, Mariah. 1143 00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:20,520 Speaker 2: Big hugs, Thank you so much. 1144 00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:21,520 Speaker 1: Thank You're amazing. 1145 00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:22,840 Speaker 2: Maria, you are amazing. 1146 00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:26,720 Speaker 5: You guys too, Thank you so much. And Chelsea like 1147 00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:31,400 Speaker 5: to be a public figure willing to say anything negative 1148 00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:33,480 Speaker 5: about scientology is so cool of you. 1149 00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:35,640 Speaker 1: Oh, no problem. 1150 00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:41,480 Speaker 2: Cool, Thanks guys, Bye bye bye. 1151 00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:43,600 Speaker 3: Okay, we're gonna take a break and we're gonna come 1152 00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:46,000 Speaker 3: back and wrap up with Beth and a joy Lens. 1153 00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:52,120 Speaker 1: And we're back. Wow. 1154 00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:55,760 Speaker 3: That was a heavy episode, you guys, that was deep. 1155 00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:58,040 Speaker 3: Thank you for writing this book. This must have been 1156 00:59:58,080 --> 00:59:59,880 Speaker 3: really hard for you to write, was it? 1157 01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:04,919 Speaker 2: No, it was it was. It felt good. It felt 1158 01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:06,720 Speaker 2: good to get it out, to be able to it 1159 01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:09,600 Speaker 2: felt good for me to be able to see it 1160 01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:12,600 Speaker 2: all out in a straight line, so to speak, like 1161 01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:14,840 Speaker 2: it wasn't all just floating around in my head and 1162 01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:17,400 Speaker 2: memories in my body that I couldn't attach. I didn't 1163 01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:19,120 Speaker 2: know how to attach one memory to the next one, 1164 01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:21,120 Speaker 2: and there were blanks that I had to fill in 1165 01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:24,040 Speaker 2: by calling former members of the group who had also 1166 01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:27,520 Speaker 2: gotten out and say what happened? Because I remember this? 1167 01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:29,160 Speaker 2: But then how did we get from point A to 1168 01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:33,000 Speaker 2: point D? And the amount of love and support that 1169 01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:36,480 Speaker 2: we were able to re engage with each other in 1170 01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:40,960 Speaker 2: this was a really it felt very powerful to me 1171 01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:43,800 Speaker 2: to be able to write this story and see it 1172 01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:46,200 Speaker 2: put out in a straight line, as I say, And 1173 01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:48,680 Speaker 2: I really hope that it can be helpful. I mean, yeah, 1174 01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:50,720 Speaker 2: there were moments, there were a couple of hard days, 1175 01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:53,720 Speaker 2: but overall, I'm just really glad to be able to 1176 01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:54,880 Speaker 2: have gotten it out of my body. 1177 01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:56,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. 1178 01:00:56,200 --> 01:00:58,240 Speaker 3: Well, it's a powerful move to write a book like this, 1179 01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:00,800 Speaker 3: and it means you know, I think that is a 1180 01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:06,280 Speaker 3: perfect way to celebrate the ending of that and commemorate 1181 01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:08,680 Speaker 3: the fact that you I mean, it's going to help 1182 01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:11,320 Speaker 3: so many people, I really hope, so people who are 1183 01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:14,280 Speaker 3: ever come across a situation like that where you can 1184 01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:18,440 Speaker 3: easily get duped into believing that some random group of 1185 01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:21,840 Speaker 3: people has a better interest in you than your own family, 1186 01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:23,720 Speaker 3: and they own the people that you know and the 1187 01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:27,440 Speaker 3: people that you love, and and what happens there. So, yeah, 1188 01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:31,400 Speaker 3: thank you for your book. And it's called Dinner Vampire. 1189 01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:33,600 Speaker 1: What is it? Vampire Dinners for a vampire? Sorry I 1190 01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:34,600 Speaker 1: don't have it right from. 1191 01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:37,160 Speaker 2: The dinner Dinner for Vampires. 1192 01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:39,320 Speaker 3: Called Dinner for Vampires by Bethany Joy Lenz. 1193 01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:43,560 Speaker 1: Okay, Bethany, will let you go. Thank you so much. 1194 01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:46,280 Speaker 2: That was lovely and really actually just I just want 1195 01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:48,920 Speaker 2: to tell you hearing you encourage her was really encouraging 1196 01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:51,320 Speaker 2: for me and inspiring and made me want to be 1197 01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:53,520 Speaker 2: able to I'm such a problem solver. I'm sort of 1198 01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:56,680 Speaker 2: like that's my ADHD right, Like I'm always I don't 1199 01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:58,080 Speaker 2: it's hard for me to listen. I just want to 1200 01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:00,440 Speaker 2: like solve the problem. So hearing you just hold that 1201 01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:03,760 Speaker 2: space and then just speak encouragement, encouragement, encouragement is so 1202 01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:05,880 Speaker 2: I was like, I want to be more like that. 1203 01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:07,360 Speaker 2: So thank you for giving me that today. 1204 01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:09,680 Speaker 1: I needed that absolutely my pleasure. 1205 01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:11,760 Speaker 2: All right, it was great talking with you both. Thank 1206 01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:15,160 Speaker 2: you for having me. Thank you, Bye bye bye. 1207 01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:18,560 Speaker 3: Okay, guys, stand up shows that I have coming up 1208 01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:22,240 Speaker 3: December twenty eighth, I'm coming in New Orleans right before 1209 01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:24,320 Speaker 3: New Year's and then I'll be in Atlanta, Georgia on 1210 01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:25,400 Speaker 3: December twenty ninth. 1211 01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:27,720 Speaker 1: And those are the rest of my stand up dates 1212 01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:31,200 Speaker 1: for this year. It's over new Tour New Year. 1213 01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:34,560 Speaker 4: If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email 1214 01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:37,400 Speaker 4: at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be 1215 01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:40,439 Speaker 4: sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited 1216 01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:44,160 Speaker 4: and engineered by Brad Dickert executive producer Catherine Law and 1217 01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:46,640 Speaker 4: be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot 1218 01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:49,800 Speaker 4: com