1 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Welcome everyone to this episode of Amy and TJ Presents. 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: It is Monday, December fifteenth, and wow, we certainly got 3 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: a verdict today. 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 2: Quicker than expected, at. 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: Least on where we stood, and not the verdict that 6 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: you and I predicted. TJ. 7 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 3: No, I was a little surprised how quick it was 8 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 3: and what they finally came back with, given that they 9 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 3: had another option. But we have been itching Alison Driesol. 10 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 3: She's been with us the last couple of weeks. Are 11 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 3: our defense attorney, our expert. Let's get your reaction. And 12 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 3: I mean that for the past week. Every time something happens, 13 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 3: we want ooh, I wonder what she thinks. Oh, I 14 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:44,959 Speaker 3: wonder what Allison thinks. And we were texting, we were 15 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 3: actually texting you and you were in the middle of 16 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 3: a case and I said. 17 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 2: Please was of a murder case. 18 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 3: I was like, go focus, this is nothing one case 19 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 3: at a time. But I was a good to see 20 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 3: you again. 21 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: Just first, your. 22 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 3: Reaction to the Walsh verdict. 23 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 2: Okay, as we started, when we started this, I said, 24 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 2: this case is a stinker. This case is a stinker. Okay, 25 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 2: So we started from a place where I said this 26 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 2: is a slam dunk for the prosecution. Then we get 27 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 2: this very surprising defense in opening, and the defense was essentially, yes, 28 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 2: he lied to the police, he dismembered his own wife, 29 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 2: but he didn't kill her, and there is no body, 30 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 2: so they will not have a manner and cause of death. Okay. 31 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 2: So they took a nothing and turned it into something 32 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 2: for the defense to present to the jury. It was 33 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 2: an all or nothing essentially, because you either believe that 34 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 2: he killed her you didn't. They didn't say, and they 35 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 2: could have said that he learned that night they had 36 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: an argument, things went away and he didn't mean to 37 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 2: kill her. They were getting in to it and they 38 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 2: were shooting for a second degree murder. They didn't do that. 39 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 2: They went all or nothing. They and even know there 40 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 2: was a jury instruction, and I know that we went 41 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: over this. I said, look, they're going to add things 42 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 2: at the end, and they did include a second degree 43 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 2: well at the end of the day, and because the 44 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 2: prosecution's closing was not that powerful, but at the end 45 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 2: of the day, they had the facts and they had 46 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 2: the law on their side, and it is nearly impossible 47 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 2: to get over those kinds of searches, those kinds of searches, 48 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: and I think Tipton did the very best with what 49 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 2: he had, with the cards he was dealt without folding, right, 50 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 2: I mean, he did the best that he could. But 51 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 2: I took a look at what no matter how strong 52 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 2: their closing was, this is the people. They had, the facts, 53 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 2: they had these horrible searches, they had a motive. I 54 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 2: did believe that they proved that he knew about it. 55 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 2: I did believe. I found it shocking that the prosecution 56 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 2: didn't spend more time. I think her closing was thirty 57 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 2: eight minutes, that she didn't spend more time on the 58 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 2: fact that Brian Walsh. Absolutely, I would have argued he 59 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 2: absolutely knew about the affair. 60 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: How do you think he proved that? How do you think, sorry, 61 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: how do you think the prosecution proved that. 62 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 2: I'm curious the fact that Brian Walsh called him looking 63 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 2: for his wife after she allegedly disappeared. It would have 64 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 2: been very weird to me, and I would have made 65 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 2: it a central theme that why this guy, why would 66 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 2: he call this guy who if he didn't know anything, 67 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 2: you know, oh they knew they had a crush. Well, 68 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 2: I think there was much more to that. I think 69 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 2: that he was well aware, and it took common sense, 70 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: and they kept getting back to common sense, common sense. 71 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 2: He called him, He called him and said, where is 72 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 2: my wife? You call people close to her, very close 73 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 2: to her. So I thought that that was pretty compelling. 74 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 2: I really did. And she had talked about it with 75 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 2: her friends. And I don't believe that whole idea that 76 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 2: the mother, the mother apparently had hired this PI and oh, 77 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 2: you know, my mom had this dream or she went 78 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 2: to somebody to talk about it. That wasn't believable. That 79 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 2: just wasn't believable. And when you're talking about life circumstances, 80 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 2: even though you tell a jury, you know, leave it 81 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 2: at the door. Just listen to the facts of the case. 82 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 2: I think that that friend that testified at the end 83 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 2: was very, very compelling, and she said, look, my friend 84 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: was upset and there were problems in this marriage and 85 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 2: he owed a lot of money. So they don't have 86 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: to prove motiva amy. They don't have to, but they 87 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 2: certainly she was having an affair, there was marital strife. 88 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 2: I mean, for Tipton to get up there and say 89 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,679 Speaker 2: this loving couple, this loving couple, I think he sold 90 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 2: it a bit too hard. I think he sold it 91 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 2: too hard. But I also I also loved the part 92 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 2: where they talked about him purchasing the antibiotic ointment and 93 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 2: the band aids before he goes to buy the cleaning supplies. 94 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 2: That was that hit for me, That resonated for me. 95 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 2: It means that he was injured before the dismemberment. 96 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 3: You know, you just made a point about them overplaying 97 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 3: their hand on the love part, being a loving couple. 98 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 3: It was something we talked about Alison that he said 99 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 3: in the closing argument that there's the only things there's 100 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 3: evidence of is love? Right, talking about there were the 101 00:05:57,880 --> 00:05:59,239 Speaker 3: only evidence. 102 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: Love? That was a huge overstep. 103 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 2: I thought that was a good He went too long. 104 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 2: And what he did is he he really fed into 105 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 2: the prosecution's hand. And I've been a Tippton fan because 106 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 2: I mean, they took a nothing case and and he 107 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 2: had this really bold defense. Of course, the problem was 108 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 2: that and he did kind of tapdance on that line 109 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 2: a little bit. Their client didn't testify, so there was 110 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 2: nobody to say that I found her in the bed right. 111 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 2: There was no one to say it. They didn't call 112 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 2: their own medical expert, and there the medical expert for 113 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 2: the prosecution did go to places like, yes, this happens, 114 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 2: and I did feel that the prosecution should have hammered 115 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 2: home how rare it was. I wanted numbers. I wanted 116 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 2: so in your fifteen hundred autopsies, how many people died 117 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 2: of this sudden, unexplained death. I wanted that. But they 118 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 2: gave the problem. They gave the jury enough to use 119 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 2: their common sense. And those videos of him disposing and 120 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 2: really doing all he could to Crouver's tracks. The phone 121 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 2: being off was a big deal to me, telling people 122 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 2: the phone was off that like eighteen digit code that 123 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: no child, I would never remember that password code, right, 124 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 2: So that that whole unlocking the phone with that long 125 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 2: are you two looking at each other because you agree, Yes, 126 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 2: we agree. I mean, yes, children are great, are really 127 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 2: way more techy than people our age. But that code 128 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 2: was not one, two, three four, I mean it was 129 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 2: you know, it was like an entire state ZIP code 130 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 2: plus a phone number plus I mean it was too much. 131 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: So you knew it was him that was unlocking the phone. 132 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 2: And like I said in the beginning, premeditation does not 133 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 2: need days, months, hours to form. It can be formed 134 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: very quickly, and so it was I mean, And the searches, 135 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 2: the searches were so bad. And he used the word 136 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 2: murder and used the word crime, and I did think 137 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 2: I didn't her tone, the prosecutor's tone. It was a 138 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 2: little too monotone for me. I would have been hitting harder. 139 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 2: I would have been more, you know, really saying this 140 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 2: man has lied repeatedly to you. He's lied throughout his life. 141 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 2: He lied about the case, the forgery case. He lied 142 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 2: to the police. Why wouldn't he lie to you. Of 143 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 2: course he's lying to you, But maybe that's more dramatic style. 144 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 2: But she did hit the key points. She did hit 145 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 2: the key points. 146 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, Allison. We were scratching our heads the whole time, 147 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: wondering why she wasn't choosing to be more effective, because 148 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: she certainly it was almost as if she was making 149 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 1: a choice to be monotone. She was making a choice 150 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 1: to be unemotional, She was making a choice not to 151 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: follow through and actually helped the jury connect the dots. 152 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,439 Speaker 1: I was frustrated watching what she left. 153 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 2: On the table. 154 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: It was funny even at the closing arguments, and we 155 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: were looking at each other when Larry Tipton said the 156 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: only evidence here is love. 157 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 2: When she got up. 158 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 1: The first thing, I would have said, evidence of love, 159 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: if this is what love looks like, and then start 160 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: reading the searches again. I mean I would have taken 161 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: what he left right there and just ran with it. 162 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: I was surprised she didn't. 163 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 2: I wanted more visuals from her. I wanted like a 164 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 2: chart that walk through every search bolded. I wanted a 165 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 2: chart that said he hacked his wife up into pieces 166 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 2: like I wanted that kind of visual But at the 167 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 2: end of the day, they had a very good case. 168 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 2: They had a very good case aiming most people do 169 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 2: not search for how do you just remember a body? 170 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 2: And if you're a juror and you're hearing that, now 171 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 2: what what was interesting was the rulings that the judge made. 172 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 2: And I don't think they're going to get very far 173 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 2: on appeal, but I want to. I'm going to talk 174 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 2: about that in the second is she made the decision 175 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 2: that the jury would not hear that. He already pled 176 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 2: to it, that the jury would not hear it, and 177 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 2: I we had talked about the only way it was 178 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 2: really going to come in is if he testified, right, 179 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 2: So on appeal and we get let's talk a little 180 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 2: bit about the sentencing. This is an automatic what we 181 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,359 Speaker 2: call an l WOPS life in prison without the possibility 182 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 2: of parole. She's going to add time to it. She's 183 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 2: going to add time to it, to the accounts that 184 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 2: he has already pled to, which from my understanding is somewhere, 185 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 2: because she's going to find all the enhancements, you know, 186 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 2: lying to the police when you know they're investigating a murder. 187 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 2: So she's going to add on as much as thirty 188 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 2: years to the life and vision without the possibility of parole. 189 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 2: And your listeners are saying, well, if you're getting life 190 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 2: in prison without the possibility of parole, why on earth 191 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 2: are you adding more time plus you know, plus the 192 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 2: time in the federal case. And here's the reason. If 193 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 2: for whatever reason, this case gets overturned on appeal, he's 194 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 2: still going to be in custody. It is very very 195 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 2: difficult to overturn a charges that you pled guilty to. 196 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 2: It's very very difficult. So, for whatever reason, and his 197 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 2: appellate attorneys, who are not going to be a trial attorneys, 198 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 2: the trial attorneys will probably do a motion for a 199 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 2: new trial, and they'll argue things like, you know, improper 200 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 2: rulings that the judge made on the bench. They're going 201 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 2: to argue that think certain things were present prejudicial, but 202 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 2: for his appeal on the case, you always see an 203 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 2: ineffective assistance of council claim. And so you're the people 204 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 2: that try the case who are really trial attorneys and 205 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 2: not apolit attorneys. Anyway, you don't want to preclude any 206 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 2: potential issues that they have on appeal. So normally it's 207 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 2: another set of attorneys that are going to be the 208 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 2: ones to file an actual appeal as opposed to a 209 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 2: motion for a new trial, which this trial team would 210 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 2: probably do. But I they came up with something, They 211 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 2: came up with something for us to talk about. They 212 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 2: came up with something for the jury to talk about. 213 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 2: In Massachusetts, it's very interesting, and you guys talked about 214 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 2: how quickly this verdict was reached in Massachusetts as opposed 215 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 2: to a state like California, they do not take a 216 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 2: straw pole before. They do not take a straw pole 217 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 2: right when they go in to deliberate in other states 218 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 2: they do. Here they're specifically instructed go through the evidence, 219 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 2: talk about the evidence before you take a poll, knowing 220 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 2: where everybody else stands. 221 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 3: Is that why? Because I want to ask you about 222 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 3: the timing. It's not an exact science or a science 223 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 3: at all really trying to predict what the jury is 224 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 3: going to do. But what did you make of it 225 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 3: being six hours that they came back and then knowing 226 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 3: that it was first degree? Now, what do you make 227 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:31,839 Speaker 3: of the time of at all? 228 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 2: Well? I think that part of it is the way 229 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 2: that Massachusetts instruct juries not to take a straw pole beforehand, 230 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 2: so they have to actually deliberate because in a lot 231 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 2: of cases, you take a straw pole, right, they say guilty, guilty, guilty, 232 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 2: and that's when you get those jury you know, those 233 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 2: those verdicts back in. You know, in less than an hour, 234 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 2: I've had a jury deliberate where it was in Orange County. 235 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 2: I hadn't even made it to the five freeway yet, 236 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 2: and there was a verdict on a murder case. You know. 237 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 2: So I'm like, wait a minute, you didn't even have 238 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 2: time to hand out the pencils and we're getting a verdict. 239 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,559 Speaker 2: So the only thing I make of it is they 240 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 2: had a weekend. They had a weekend, and even know, 241 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 2: none of them were allowed to talk about the case. 242 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 2: Certainly they thought about it, right. Each of them thought 243 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 2: about the case. And it wasn't a lot of time 244 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 2: that they spent deliberating. It was a shorter trial than 245 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 2: we all predicted, than the judge predicted. But the key 246 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 2: witnesses there said what they had to say, right, They 247 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 2: said what they had to say. And that jury thought 248 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 2: all weekend about the searches and him going to Low's, 249 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 2: and him going and buying fifty pounds of baking soda 250 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 2: so and the idea that at the end he didn't 251 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 2: even give them a place to go and visit their mother. 252 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 2: He chopped her up. He chopped this woman up. God, 253 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 2: that's tough evidence to overcome, really tough. Yeah. 254 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: Is there anything the defense missed? Is there anything? As 255 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: a criminal defense attorney? 256 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, he overstated his He overplayed his hand at the end. 257 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: He should have said nobody, no manner a death, no 258 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 2: cause of death. We are left with a question of 259 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 2: how did this woman die? He overplayed his hand. I 260 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 2: would have stayed away from the love, love, love, not 261 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 2: so much. She had told at least two people that 262 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 2: testified that there were marital problems she was having an affair. 263 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 2: I would have let that go. I would not have 264 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 2: used it as a central theme of the. 265 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: Closing, should they have called any witnesses. 266 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 2: I wanted to hear from their medical examiner. I wanted 267 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 2: to hear from their medical examiner, I mean the prosecution's 268 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 2: medical examiner. They felt, And that's one of the things 269 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 2: I think that they're going to argue on appeal is 270 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 2: he They can't argue about him not testifying, right, they 271 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 2: really can't, because the judge specifically asked him, is this 272 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 2: your decision? Is this your decision not to testify? But 273 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 2: they over promised at during their opening, they over promised, 274 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 2: and when he didn't testify, there was no one to 275 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 2: say what actually happened to her? What actually happened to her? 276 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 2: And now he would have been TJ, You're like, he 277 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 2: cannot testify. We talked about this because the first thing 278 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 2: I would ask is, well, where's her body? Where's her body? 279 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 2: And then it would have gone on from there. Right, 280 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 2: so when you were hacking her up, okay, in your 281 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 2: home with your children home. And by the way, it 282 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 2: also resonated when she said he used his children to 283 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 2: lie to the police. Things like that get you, They 284 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 2: get you, that affects yours. 285 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 3: The line is this something that I mean, you can't avoid. 286 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 3: I'm trying to remember his line. He said, you cannot passion, 287 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 3: sympathy and anger for him. 288 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 2: Right, he uses that, I'm sure in every case. 289 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 3: But he seems like he knew what he was up against. 290 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 3: Do you think a juror can't help but bring anger 291 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 3: and sympathy and emotion and passion and whatever else after 292 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 3: what they just sat through and heard for two weeks. 293 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 2: That's why he said it, and that's why the judge 294 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 2: repeats it, and that's why it's a very it's a 295 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 2: very important jury instruction because you need to be able 296 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 2: to put that aside and focus on the evidence that 297 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 2: you heard in the case. But we all know that 298 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:01,640 Speaker 2: people bring their own thoughts and passion and prejudices and 299 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 2: real life experiences to every single event that they're experiencing. 300 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 2: So you can't ask them to check all that at 301 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 2: the door, because that's not human nature. 302 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,199 Speaker 1: Allison, I want to ask you what you're expecting to 303 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: hear on Wednesday. So Brian sentencing hearing is on Wednesday. 304 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: But the judge made it very clear she would rearrange 305 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:25,640 Speaker 1: what she needed to to make sure she got those 306 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: victim impact statements that part of sentencing and that part 307 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 1: of the trial. What are you anticipating. I was trying 308 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: to imagine if I mean, we haven't seen any emotion 309 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 1: from Brian Walsh whatsoever when the verdict was read. 310 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 2: Never I was watching his reaction when they when the 311 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 2: VERTICU came in. Nothing. Nothing, But he was stone cold 312 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 2: when he was talking to the police. He was stone 313 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 2: cold when he was buying less supplies. So but you 314 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 2: know what's interesting is normally you hear from family members, right, 315 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 2: you hear from family members. Are we going to hear 316 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 2: from Anna Walsh's family? I don't know. I don't know. 317 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 2: We know that her mother has been ill and lives 318 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 2: out of the country and the children through DCF or whatever. 319 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 2: That's uh. You know that that Massiss Juicus has is 320 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 2: going to issue a They're going to have a statement 321 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,400 Speaker 2: from them. But they're young, They're very, very young. We're 322 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 2: going to hear from I'm sure we may hear from 323 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 2: mister Falstow, we may hear from her best friend, we 324 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 2: may hear from mister Matt Tou And they're going to 325 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 2: be impactful. They're going to be impactful. But what we're 326 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,360 Speaker 2: not going to hear. Is the statements from the children 327 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 2: and what they have lived and what they have been 328 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 2: going through, and that's going to move the judge for sure. 329 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: Could Brian, judge, could Brian speak at this? 330 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:56,880 Speaker 2: We were teaching, we were talking. 331 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: We thought he could. 332 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 2: Right, absolutely, Here's his problem with speaking. He can't own it. 333 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 2: He can't accept responsibility because he closes the door to 334 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 2: his appeal. 335 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 3: All but at this nothing the judge is going to hear. 336 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 3: The sentences are pretty much set, are they not arst 337 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 3: Green murder? 338 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 2: It's set. It is life emparism without the possibility of parole. 339 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 3: Remind people why this is always, even though we know 340 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 3: he's going to spend the rest of his life in 341 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 3: prison if the sentence goes through, why this is always 342 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 3: an important moment and an important day to have victims, friends, 343 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 3: family be able to speak in court like this. 344 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 2: It reminds first of all, it's very therapeutic for them, 345 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 2: very very therapeutic for the victims. They should have a say, 346 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 2: you know, it's it's the state that's prosecuting you, not 347 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 2: the individual person. So it's their moment to face in 348 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 2: this case Brian Welsh and tell them what he took 349 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 2: from them what their life has been like without her, 350 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:11,360 Speaker 2: and say things like I want you to understand that 351 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 2: for the rest of your life, you get to live. 352 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 2: You're going to be alive. She will never celebrate another Christmas, 353 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 2: she will never see her children again, we will never 354 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 2: get to laugh with her, call her, and the pain 355 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 2: that his actions have caused. That is a that is 356 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 2: that is very very important if there's to be any 357 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 2: healing for friends and family, that this was more than 358 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 2: just a murder case. There's a real person behind this, 359 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 2: there's a real victim and the ripple effect that it 360 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 2: had on the community and the people close to her. 361 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 2: That's always so incredibly important. So the judge knows that 362 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 2: this isn't just like any other case. This is a 363 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,360 Speaker 2: case that someone who they loved and adore it has 364 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 2: been taken from them. So that is extremely important, and 365 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 2: in many states it's a requirement. It's a requirement that 366 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 2: you know, like Varci's Law, where victims have a chance 367 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,719 Speaker 2: and an opportunity to be heard. So it's extremely important 368 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 2: part of our system that the victims get a voice, 369 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,439 Speaker 2: they get to have their own voice. 370 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 3: All right, Allison, we we actually thought we'd be talking 371 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 3: to you longer for the next couple of weeks. 372 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 2: You know, and we thought, look, we thought the case 373 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 2: would would be much longer. I was surprised at how 374 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 2: quickly the prosecution was was sort of ripping through their case. 375 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 2: And then we hear that the defense is going to 376 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 2: present no defense at all, which, by the way, I'll 377 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 2: talk a little bit about that, and that is that 378 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 2: if Brian Walsh is going to attack any of it, 379 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 2: he may say, well, they my my attorneys choose not 380 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 2: to call any witness. Yes, it was on me that 381 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 2: I didn't, but that was a decision that they made. 382 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 2: So I'm going to attack that. They're going to attack 383 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 2: the judges ruling. They're going to attack that evidence didn't 384 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 2: come in. I am curious whether they believed that the 385 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 2: judge was going to tell the jury that he had 386 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 2: already fled to the dismemberment or you know, the the 387 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 2: body and the line to the police, and did they 388 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 2: think that that would change the verdict. And then ultimately, 389 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 2: what are we going to hear from the jurors and 390 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 2: is there anything that the defense is going to be 391 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 2: able to pick apart in what in their. 392 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 1: Deliberations Morticam, It's always so fascinating to hear the jurors 393 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 1: and their mindset and what it was like during those 394 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: deliberations and state to state. As you pointed out, it's 395 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 1: very different what that looks like. But how's your Verder 396 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: trial going? By the way it's going on. 397 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 2: I love analyzing other people's cases. I have lots and 398 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 2: lots to say, I never talk about my own. 399 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 1: Very smart, that's why you're a great criminal defense attorney, 400 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 1: one of the best. 401 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 2: Wonderful a happy holidays, Alison. 402 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. 403 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 2: We appreciate you absolutely, you all too. Bye.