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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: It's one of the most brutal unsolved mysteries in Hollywood

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Speaker 2: that particularly is intriguing to Elvis Presley fans, that nobody

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Speaker 2: really realizes was actually solved forty years ago, and the

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Speaker 2: truth has been sitting in a police file in the

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Speaker 2: Los Angeles Police headquarters ever since then.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked on Exactly Right. I've

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Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've

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Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home

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Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've

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Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we

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Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have

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Speaker 1: never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents Wicked Words is

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Speaker 1: about the choices that writers make, good and bad. It's

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Speaker 1: a deep dive into the stories behind the stories.

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Speaker 2: My name is Buddy Morehouse and I am a journalist,

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Speaker 2: documentary filmmaker, and author.

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Speaker 1: When you're telling somebody what this book is about what

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Speaker 1: are the themes? What would you say?

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Speaker 2: One of the victims, Jenny Maxwell, was my mom's first cousin,

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Speaker 2: and the reason I decided to look into it it

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Speaker 2: was my mom was in really poor health a couple

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Speaker 2: of years ago, and I was kind of looking for

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Speaker 2: some sort of closure for her benefit, because she had

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Speaker 2: gone her whole life not knowing what had happened to

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Speaker 2: her cousin who was responsible for the murder, And when

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Speaker 2: I first looked into it, I had no clue that

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Speaker 2: the police had actually solved it. I was kind of

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Speaker 2: hoping to maybe get enough information that would convince the

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Speaker 2: police to reopen the case. Jenny's life story itself is tragic.

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Speaker 2: It's a story about a girl who got too famous

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Speaker 2: too quickly and didn't know how to handle it back then,

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Speaker 2: and then made a lot of very poor choices in

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Speaker 2: her life that ended up leading to her destruction. And

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Speaker 2: then it's the story also I think about family, her family,

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Speaker 2: our family, and how we were finally able in my mind,

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Speaker 2: how I was finally able to get closure for my

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Speaker 2: mom as to what happened and let her know before

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Speaker 2: she passed away.

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Speaker 1: I wonder what age did your mom and Jenny start

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Speaker 1: to cross paths. How old were each of them?

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Speaker 2: My mom was six years older than Jenny. Jenny lived

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Speaker 2: in New York and my mom lived just outside Chicago,

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Speaker 2: and when they were kids, every summer, my mom used

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Speaker 2: to take the train from Chicago out to New York

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Speaker 2: and she would babysit her for a couple of weeks.

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Speaker 2: So it probably it's like when my mom was about,

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Speaker 2: you know, maybe twelve or so, and Jenny was five

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Speaker 2: or six, and then they would do that every summer

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Speaker 2: for several years. That would have started sometime in the

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Speaker 2: late forties.

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Speaker 1: How would your mom have described Jenny in the way

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Speaker 1: that she grew up in that part of the family.

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Speaker 2: They were very lower middle class. Her dad was a

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Speaker 2: skyscraper builder. He was one of those guys that went

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Speaker 2: up on the big you know I beams and built

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Speaker 2: sky Her mom, as far as I note, never worked.

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Speaker 2: They lived in a really modest, two story brownstone in

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Speaker 2: New York City, so they were not affluent at all.

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Speaker 2: She was also an only child, which was rare in

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Speaker 2: our big Norwegian family for Jenny to be an only child,

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Speaker 2: and so her parents just totally doted just on her.

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Speaker 2: The only cousin that Jenny was really close to was

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Speaker 2: my mom. There were eleven brothers and sisters over in Norway,

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Speaker 2: and three of them came over here. My grandfather was

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Speaker 2: the oldest son in the family. He came over, and

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Speaker 2: then Jenny's dad came over next. His name was Johnny.

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Speaker 2: And then there was a younger brother, Harold, who came over.

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Speaker 2: So the three brothers who came over here stayed in

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Speaker 2: touch all the time. They were extremely close.

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Speaker 1: Did your mom see things that sort of foreshadowed this

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Speaker 1: rise to stardom with her? Did this girl have a

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Speaker 1: great personality right from the get go?

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Speaker 2: You could tell you that she had a magnetic personality,

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Speaker 2: and she had just striking features too. She was extremely

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Speaker 2: blonde and piercing eyes, so she was the kind of

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Speaker 2: person that she was impossible to miss. But my mom

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Speaker 2: also was heavy into theater and drama. So when they

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Speaker 2: were kids and she would go out there, they would

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Speaker 2: put on plays, and Jenny just idolized my mom. They

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Speaker 2: would write a script, come up with costumes, and rehearse it,

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Speaker 2: and then perform it for the neighborhood kids. She could

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Speaker 2: tell early on that that was Jenny's love and that

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Speaker 2: she was also gifted and was kind of destined to

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Speaker 2: do that.

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Speaker 1: This seems like a very supportive, great, we're just working

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Speaker 1: class New York.

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Speaker 2: Family, extremely uncle Johnny, Jenny's dad, and his wife Annie.

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Speaker 2: They did not want to leave New York. That was

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Speaker 2: where their life was. So when Jenny went off to Hollywood,

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Speaker 2: their only daughter at sixteen years old, moving to Hollywood

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Speaker 2: and everything that was extremely difficult for them to deal with. Her.

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Speaker 2: Mom ended up spending a lot of time over there

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Speaker 2: with Jenny, but they never thought about moving across country, so,

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Speaker 2: you know, it kind of tore them apart to be

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Speaker 2: a part that way. But they also knew that that

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Speaker 2: was Jenny's destiny and that was her dream, so they

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Speaker 2: weren't going to stand in the way of it.

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Speaker 1: How does that happen?

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Speaker 2: Though?

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Speaker 1: How do you go from working class kid in New

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Speaker 1: York to wanting to go to Hollywood? How are you

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Speaker 1: able to do that at age sixteen?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Jenny was literally discovered the way that you read

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Speaker 2: about the way that Lana Turner was discovered drinking a

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Speaker 2: soda at whatever that soda shop was in La Jenny

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Speaker 2: was literally discovered in an acting class by VINCENTA. Manelli

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Speaker 2: Eliza Minelli's dad, who was there just visiting a friend,

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Speaker 2: and he was just getting ready to start shooting this

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Speaker 2: Frank Sinatra movie, and he was looking for someone to

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Speaker 2: play Frank Sinatra's niece in the movie. And he saw

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Speaker 2: Jenny on stage and he was just he was just

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Speaker 2: blown away, and he flew her out to LA for

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Speaker 2: a green test for that and then she never left.

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Speaker 2: So I don't think Jenny had any grand plans about

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Speaker 2: how she was going to become famous. It just kind

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Speaker 2: of they found her. Hollywood found her and pulled her out.

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Speaker 1: Her parents had to have been nervous about all this.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they absolutely were extremely nervous. Her mom went

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Speaker 2: out and lived with her for the first few months

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Speaker 2: and then would go back and forth a lot. For

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Speaker 2: several years, she did the same thing. She went back

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Speaker 2: and forth, and then Johnny, her dad, would go out

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Speaker 2: when he could. As a father myself, I just cannot

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Speaker 2: imagine what that would have been like to have to

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Speaker 2: say goodbye to your daughter so she can go to

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Speaker 2: LA to pursue her dreams at that age, and as

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Speaker 2: it turned out, Jenny was not ready for it.

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Speaker 1: So you've got a teenager coming from New York from

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Speaker 1: protective parents into Hollywood in the fifties. What was life

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Speaker 1: like for her? I understand she's got an agent and

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Speaker 1: she's auditioning, but she essentially on her own when she's there.

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Speaker 2: She had an agent named Lillian Small, not only just

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Speaker 2: a great agent, but a maternal figure for Jenny when

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Speaker 2: she was out there, and did her excellent job of

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Speaker 2: looking after her. Jenny still managed to make a lot

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Speaker 2: of poor choices and everything, but Lillian was kind of

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Speaker 2: more than an agent.

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Speaker 1: What in the fifties would be offered to a young

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Speaker 1: woman in her late teens. Is this lots of alcohol

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Speaker 1: and drugs? What is she kind of up against?

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Speaker 2: As soon as she got out there, she met somebody

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Speaker 2: and got married. She eloped when she was seventeen years old.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: She married an assistant director named Paul Rapp, who was

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Speaker 2: kind of part of a family that was almost Hollywood royalty.

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Speaker 2: Paul Rapp's dad was a guy named Philip Rapp who

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Speaker 2: was a creator of The Bickersons, a very famous radio

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Speaker 2: show that later became a TV show. He was the

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Speaker 2: writer for Bob Hope. He was best friends with the

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Speaker 2: Marx Brothers, So the rap family was very famous. In

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Speaker 2: Hollywood at the time, and Jenny hooked up with Paul

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Speaker 2: rap and got married when she was seventeen years old,

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Speaker 2: and then she had a child when she was nineteen

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Speaker 2: years old.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think she went that way? If she's

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Speaker 1: there trying to be a Hollywood star, why get married

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Speaker 1: at such a young age? Was it security you think?

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Speaker 2: I'm sure it was that she was just had fallen

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Speaker 2: totally in love with Hollywood, with that lifestyle, and then

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Speaker 2: this man who was and Paul Rapp was about four

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Speaker 2: years older than she was, came into her life and

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Speaker 2: fell in love with her and told her that he

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Speaker 2: would give her all of everything she ever wanted. And

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Speaker 2: I think she just kind of was, yeah, maybe looking

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Speaker 2: for that security, but also it was just in her

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Speaker 2: mind furthering the Hollywood lifestyle to have a husband now

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Speaker 2: who he's a Hollywood inside her as well.

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Speaker 1: What was the reaction of her family, you know, her parents,

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Speaker 1: to being married to this man and having a child

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Speaker 1: so young.

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Speaker 2: The part about getting married was devastating to them because

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Speaker 2: she ran off and eloped. She went to back then

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Speaker 2: the place that everybody in California went to Elope was Yuma, Arizona,

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Speaker 2: which was kind of like the Las Vegas of the

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Speaker 2: day in terms of there being all these wedding chapels

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Speaker 2: and no waiting period. You can get a license the

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Speaker 2: same day and get married the same day. So everybody

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Speaker 2: in southern California was going to Uma, Arizona to Elope.

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Speaker 2: And that's what Jenny and Paul did. They didn't tell

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Speaker 2: her family, they didn't tell his family. That was absolutely

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Speaker 2: devastating to my great uncle Johnny, particularly that he didn't

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Speaker 2: have a chance to give his daughter away at a wedding.

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Speaker 2: And you know, they'd had all these visions of getting

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Speaker 2: married in the Lutheran Church, as all Norwegians did, and

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Speaker 2: it was it was a lot to deal with and

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Speaker 2: take in. When Brian was born, her son, it was

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Speaker 2: sort of the same thing. But you know, they also

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Speaker 2: knew that they were going to be loving and supported

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Speaker 2: grandparents to him. They were just not at all ready

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Speaker 2: for the decisions that Jenny was making.

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Speaker 1: What is Paul like, what kind of husband is he?

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Speaker 1: In father?

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Speaker 2: They had a terrible relationship. He was a good father

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Speaker 2: to Brian, very good father, but they had a terrible,

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Speaker 2: terrible marriage and relationship. They fought constantly, They had affairs

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Speaker 2: on each other. When Brian was about two years old.

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Speaker 2: They ended up getting a divorce and that was really

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Speaker 2: messy as well. The custody was messy and it stayed

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Speaker 2: that way for a number of years.

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Speaker 1: Was she able to afford an attorney compared to what

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Speaker 1: he was able to afford or how did the finances

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Speaker 1: work between them?

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Speaker 2: Jenny was making good money on her own because she

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Speaker 2: was in all these TV shows and movies, and she

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Speaker 2: wasn't hurting for money herself back then, so she was

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Speaker 2: definitely able to afford an attorney. When they first got

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Speaker 2: divorced in nineteen sixty two, Jenny got custody of Brian.

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Speaker 2: She also won child support of a couple hundred dollars

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Speaker 2: a month. And Jenny originally got custody of Brian at

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Speaker 2: that time because it was very rare. It was almost

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Speaker 2: unheard of in those days in California for the father

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Speaker 2: to a custody or even to have anything close to

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Speaker 2: equal visitation. So Jenny got custody of Brian originally, but

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Speaker 2: she was neglectful. She would have men over all the time,

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Speaker 2: she was doing drugs in the house. Paul took her

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Speaker 2: back to court in nineteen sixty three and He ended

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Speaker 2: up winning custody of Brian at that time, and Jenny

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Speaker 2: only got some occasional visitation, and it was one of

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Speaker 2: the first times in California history that the father got

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Speaker 2: custody of a child. So nineteen sixty three, Brian went

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Speaker 2: from living with Jenny to living with Paul.

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Speaker 1: So, I know, I keep going back to this, but

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Speaker 1: she is being brought up in New York by a

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Speaker 1: very loving family, great parents, and just a few years

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Speaker 1: later she's in a horrible marriage. She's not a very

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Speaker 1: good mother. It sounds like is this Hollywood or is

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Speaker 1: this the result of making a poor choice in a husband.

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Speaker 2: I think it's because she was not prepared for becoming

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Speaker 2: such a big star at such a young age, and

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Speaker 2: nothing happened gradually to her. And as loving as a

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Speaker 2: family was, and as much support as she had from them,

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Speaker 2: she was very strong willed and just wasn't going to

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Speaker 2: listen to anyone tell her or anything. And when the

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Speaker 2: allure of that Hollywood lifestyle comes along, it just overtook her.

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Speaker 2: After that, she was totally in love with the parties

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Speaker 2: and the affairs and the drugs and attention, exactly the attention,

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Speaker 2: and she was just absolutely stunningly beautiful. That also put

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Speaker 2: a huge strain on her marriage with Paul, because every

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Speaker 2: time she would go out in public, people would be

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Speaker 2: asking your autograph for autograph and showering attention, and so

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Speaker 2: for somebody who was even mildly jealous, Paul couldn't come

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Speaker 2: close to handling that.

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Speaker 1: Did you get the impression that he was abusive? Sounds

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Speaker 1: like they were probably both verbally abusive to each other,

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Speaker 1: But no idea that any of.

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Speaker 2: This turned violent, nothing at all. Nothing we'd ever heard of,

250
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Speaker 2: and nothing that I'd ever in my research that I

251
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Speaker 2: ever found out that he was physically abusive to either

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Speaker 2: her or certainly not to Brian.

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Speaker 1: Lots of loud fights, I'm assuming, maybe some visits from

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Speaker 1: the police.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there's no question the police got involved.

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Speaker 1: Okay, tell me about her schedule. What is that like,

257
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Speaker 1: maybe leading up to Blue Hawaii, which was it sounds

258
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Speaker 1: like the really big thing that people know her for.

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Speaker 2: Jenny had always wanted to become a film star, and

260
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Speaker 2: even after Blue Hawaii, that was her kind of her dream.

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Speaker 2: Because when you're a film star, then you're making maybe

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Speaker 2: you know, three or four films a year, You're on

263
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Speaker 2: location for a month or two at a time. It's

264
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Speaker 2: a lot steadier and it's a lot more stable. When

265
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Speaker 2: you're doing mostly TV shows at that time, it's a

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Speaker 2: lot of boom boom boom. These are especially she's mostly

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Speaker 2: in sitcoms back then, so they're all filming everything in

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Speaker 2: one week time. So you get there on Monday and Tuesday,

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Speaker 2: and you rehearse, and you shoot on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday,

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Speaker 2: and then you move on to the next thing. But

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Speaker 2: very long hours when you're in the middle of shooting something.

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Speaker 1: She said she was in a lot of comedy, So

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Speaker 1: was she naturally funny or was there a particular type

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Speaker 1: of character she played.

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Speaker 2: She specialized in playing a couple of different types of characters.

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Speaker 2: One of them was the braddy girl who just moved

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Speaker 2: to town and is trying to steal away the boyfriend

278
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Speaker 2: of whoever the hero of the show was at that time.

279
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Speaker 2: So she had a lot of roles like that, kind

280
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Speaker 2: of like a vixen character. And then she also would

281
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Speaker 2: also play a lot of characters where she would had

282
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Speaker 2: kind of like a sweet nature to her, and she

283
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Speaker 2: had several characters where she played kind of like a

284
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Speaker 2: farm girl who was a little more naive, just a

285
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Speaker 2: cute blonde farm girl that you would see in a

286
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Speaker 2: lot of shows who had the country girl who would

287
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Speaker 2: pop up in a lot of those kinds of things

288
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Speaker 2: as well. The character that she played in Blue Hawaii

289
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Speaker 2: was the first one. She was this brat named Ellie

290
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Speaker 2: Corbett who is making life miserable for Elvis Presley.

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Speaker 1: So tell me about that break. How does she make

292
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Speaker 1: the jump from a couple of TV series to something

293
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Speaker 1: like Blue Wahi with I would presume the biggest star

294
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Speaker 1: at the time, Elvis Presley.

295
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Speaker 2: So Jenny had been in fifteen or so TV shows

296
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Speaker 2: leading up to March of nineteen sixty one, which is

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Speaker 2: when Blue Hawaii filmed out in Hawaii. She'd been on

298
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Speaker 2: the radar screen of all the Hollywood casting directors at

299
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Speaker 2: that time. She had just come off doing an episode

300
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Speaker 2: of The Twilight Zone that got a lot of attention

301
00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,200
Speaker 2: and she had really good reviews for that. And the

302
00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,920
Speaker 2: director was a guy named Norman Torog of Blue Hawaii,

303
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,240
Speaker 2: and he was looking for exactly the kind of a

304
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,440
Speaker 2: character that Jenny specialized in playing. For this. If you

305
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,080
Speaker 2: see the film Blue Hawaii, there's Elvis and his love

306
00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,800
Speaker 2: interest in the movie or the two main characters, and

307
00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,640
Speaker 2: then really Jenny's character was the other most important one

308
00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,120
Speaker 2: and probably the most memorable one in the film. So

309
00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,520
Speaker 2: the plot of Blue Hawaii is that Elvis Presley has

310
00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:29,880
Speaker 2: just gotten out of the military. His family was this

311
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,880
Speaker 2: rich family in Hawaii who owned a pineapple plantation, and

312
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Speaker 2: he was coming back to kind of run the pineapple plantation,

313
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Speaker 2: which he didn't really want it to do. He wanted

314
00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:40,920
Speaker 2: to be a Hawaiian tour guide where people would come

315
00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:42,880
Speaker 2: to the islands and he would show them around. So

316
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Speaker 2: that's the job that he was doing when the movie

317
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,800
Speaker 2: starts and Jenny and this other group of girls show up,

318
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Speaker 2: and they are college aged girls who are on a

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Speaker 2: tour of Hawaii, and Elvis is in charge of showing

320
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,360
Speaker 2: them a good time. And there's I think five or

321
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Speaker 2: six girls in this group, and they're all nice and normal,

322
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Speaker 2: and Jenny is just this brand who is whiny and

323
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Speaker 2: complaining and is just trying to make life absolutely miserable

324
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Speaker 2: for Elvis. And then of course she ends up trying

325
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Speaker 2: to seduce Elvis, and then Elvis has to put her

326
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Speaker 2: in her place. So it's coming off some of the

327
00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,080
Speaker 2: TV things that she did, particularly the Twilight Zone that

328
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,640
Speaker 2: got the attention of the director. She screen tested with

329
00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,920
Speaker 2: Elvis and it was just absolutely magic at that time,

330
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Speaker 2: and that's when they offered her the part.

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Speaker 1: Did you get any idea or any sense about what

332
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Speaker 1: their relationship was like their working relationship between Jenny and Elvis.

333
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Speaker 2: Apparently they got along absolutely great. So this was right

334
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Speaker 2: after Brian was born. He was born in June of

335
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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty and they filmed this movie in March of

336
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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty one, so Brian was only like nine months

337
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Speaker 2: old at the time, and Jenny had convinced Paramount Pictures

338
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Speaker 2: to fly Paul and Brian out to Hawaii with her

339
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Speaker 2: to let them stay with her when they filmed this.

340
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Speaker 2: At that time, they were still trying to keep their

341
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Speaker 2: marriage together and you know, hey, we have a young

342
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Speaker 2: son here. We don't need to be getting a divorce.

343
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Speaker 2: So they thought maybe this trip to Hawaii was going

344
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:05,960
Speaker 2: to be a good thing for their family. And one

345
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,120
Speaker 2: of the great stories that I heard is that Elvis

346
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,720
Speaker 2: would throw these big parties every night at the Coco

347
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,880
Speaker 2: Palms Resort, which is where the movie was filmed. These

348
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,880
Speaker 2: huge parties you would have every single night, and apparently

349
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,800
Speaker 2: the last night of filming, after everything wrapped up, they

350
00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,160
Speaker 2: had the biggest party of all and they were all

351
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,640
Speaker 2: down there and that's where Brian, who was nine months old,

352
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,360
Speaker 2: that's where he took his very first steps, was at

353
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,520
Speaker 2: this huge party with Elvis Presley watching him. So you

354
00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,040
Speaker 2: talk about life experiences then that. You can't get much

355
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:35,640
Speaker 2: cooler than that.

356
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Speaker 1: So the biggest movie she's ever done, and in the

357
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Speaker 1: worst time of her life.

358
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Speaker 2: It was pretty much the worst time of her life. Yeah,

359
00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:45,480
Speaker 2: career wise, had a lot of great things happened to

360
00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,840
Speaker 2: her right after that, but her personal life was just

361
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,920
Speaker 2: kept going downhill after that and just kept getting Worsemmer Sommers.

362
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:52,800
Speaker 2: But in terms of her career, she was on top

363
00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:53,240
Speaker 2: of the world.

364
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,920
Speaker 1: She and Paul entered too. This custody battle, is she

365
00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,760
Speaker 1: continuing to work while she's doing the rugs and doing

366
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,800
Speaker 1: the partying and fighting for custody and then losing custody.

367
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:05,960
Speaker 1: Is she consistently working?

368
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,080
Speaker 2: She is? Her career kept going on kind of an

369
00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:13,000
Speaker 2: upward trajectory. After Blue Hawaii, she got a couple more

370
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,760
Speaker 2: really good TV roles. She was in another big movie

371
00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,520
Speaker 2: called Taker She's Mine with Jimmy Stewart and Sandra d

372
00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:21,840
Speaker 2: She was hoping to do even more movies after that,

373
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:23,960
Speaker 2: but she did have a huge movie after that, with

374
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,320
Speaker 2: the Jimmy Stewart movie. Coming into about nineteen sixty five

375
00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,480
Speaker 2: or so, she had lost custody at Brian. All of

376
00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:32,520
Speaker 2: the drinking and drugs and everything had really started to

377
00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,560
Speaker 2: get to her, and at that point her career really

378
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,320
Speaker 2: started to go downhill for a few years. This nineteen

379
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:39,960
Speaker 2: sixty six or sixty seven, when she only had one

380
00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,920
Speaker 2: TV appearance. It was a really small part in Death

381
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,800
Speaker 2: Valley Days, which was actually narrated by ron O Reagan,

382
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,800
Speaker 2: but that was the only part that she had that movie.

383
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,480
Speaker 2: So her career and her life were both kind of

384
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,880
Speaker 2: spiraling downhill. She's only like twenty five, twenty six years old,

385
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Speaker 2: and she had already done that much living in her life.

386
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Speaker 1: And you think the big trigger for this was losing

387
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:01,800
Speaker 1: custody of Brian.

388
00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,720
Speaker 2: I think that that was just kind of symptomatic of

389
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:06,760
Speaker 2: everything that had happened to her. It was kind of

390
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,359
Speaker 2: inevitable that something like that was going to happen, and

391
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:13,280
Speaker 2: it wasn't until nineteen sixty eight that she finally realized

392
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,000
Speaker 2: that she needed to do something different in her life

393
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,520
Speaker 2: that she needed to change. She made the decision in

394
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:20,760
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty eight that it was not going to be

395
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:22,920
Speaker 2: possible for her to be both a good mother and

396
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,320
Speaker 2: a star. She just couldn't do both of them. So

397
00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,679
Speaker 2: she made the choice in nineteen sixty eight that she

398
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,600
Speaker 2: was going to quit Hollywood altogether in an effort to

399
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,119
Speaker 2: try to win her son back. She was able to

400
00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,240
Speaker 2: get partial custody of Brian back at that point, and

401
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,040
Speaker 2: she never acted again. Her entire Hollywood career lasted just

402
00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,760
Speaker 2: ten years, from the age of sixteen to the age

403
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:44,960
Speaker 2: of twenty six. That was her entire Hollywood career.

404
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:07,240
Speaker 1: So now she is an actress that is effectively retired herself.

405
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,680
Speaker 1: And how does she support herself more than just Paul's

406
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,520
Speaker 1: money that she receives child supporters, So what does she

407
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:14,080
Speaker 1: do for work?

408
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,359
Speaker 2: Jenny did not want to get a regular job. In

409
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,199
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty eight, she quit show business and in nineteen

410
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:23,679
Speaker 2: seventy she married this rich Hollywood divorce attorney who was

411
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,959
Speaker 2: twenty years older than her named Irvin Tip Raider, and

412
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:32,280
Speaker 2: Tip was a former cop. He was somebody who didn't

413
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,560
Speaker 2: become a lawyer till he was forty years old. But

414
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,720
Speaker 2: he became a really famous, really good lawyer really quickly,

415
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,960
Speaker 2: and he was obsessed with Hollywood. He represented a lot

416
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,320
Speaker 2: of Hollywood people in divorce cases, had some affairs with

417
00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:49,719
Speaker 2: some Hollywood starlits, and he really wanted a Hollywood wife.

418
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:51,320
Speaker 2: He wanted some arm candy.

419
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,480
Speaker 1: So he has an interesting character. Tip. Let's talk about

420
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,200
Speaker 1: the mobbed up part of him.

421
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,480
Speaker 2: Tip was a fascinating guy. He was born in Iowa,

422
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,840
Speaker 2: grew up in Iowa, went into the military when he

423
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,600
Speaker 2: was just out of high school, and he was stationed

424
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,880
Speaker 2: out in California. And when he got out of the military,

425
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,359
Speaker 2: he decided he wanted to stay in California and become

426
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,520
Speaker 2: a cop, so he moved down to southern California. He

427
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,800
Speaker 2: got a job with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.

428
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:20,320
Speaker 2: He was a big, menacing looking, annoying, obnoxious guy. He

429
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,680
Speaker 2: was loud and abrasive. Most of the people who knew

430
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,800
Speaker 2: Tip back then could not stand him. He was kind

431
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,760
Speaker 2: of a person who would needle you and just not

432
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,720
Speaker 2: a very fun friendly person to be around. But a huge,

433
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,320
Speaker 2: enormous personality which really lent itself well to him being

434
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,680
Speaker 2: an attorney. He was a cop for like twenty years,

435
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:40,840
Speaker 2: almost twenty years or so, and then when he went

436
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,239
Speaker 2: to law school and became a lawyer, he still had

437
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,280
Speaker 2: a lot of those connections that he'd made back when

438
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,639
Speaker 2: he was a cop. He knew all the bad guys

439
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,919
Speaker 2: in Los Angeles and in that area there, and they

440
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,720
Speaker 2: knew him as well. So there was a restaurant called

441
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,120
Speaker 2: Red Tract and Steakhouse that Tipp used to hang out

442
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,320
Speaker 2: at all the time. And it's kind of like that

443
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,720
Speaker 2: restaurant at the beginning of Goodfellow where they're walking through

444
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,280
Speaker 2: and and he's explaining who all the mobster guys in there.

445
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,360
Speaker 2: That was basically Red Tract AND's steakhouse at the time,

446
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,560
Speaker 2: and that's where Tip hung out all the time. Got

447
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,320
Speaker 2: to know Red Tract And really really well.

448
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,159
Speaker 1: So this does not sound like the making of a

449
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,640
Speaker 1: good marriage. It was terrible, worse than her marriage with Paul.

450
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,560
Speaker 2: Probably in a lot of the same ways, in a

451
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,600
Speaker 2: little bit in a different way too. Jenny did not

452
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:23,439
Speaker 2: do a very good job at picking husbands. There's no

453
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,320
Speaker 2: question about that. They fought all the time from the

454
00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 2: time they got married. Tip was extremely jealous of Jenny

455
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,560
Speaker 2: and even though she wasn't in Hollywood anymore, she was

456
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,640
Speaker 2: still recognized all the time, particularly for Blue White because

457
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 2: I was on TV all the time. So every time

458
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 2: Jenny would go out, people would recognize her. Tip would

459
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,639
Speaker 2: get very jealous about that. They argued, fought all the time.

460
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 2: He kicked her out of the house several times. She

461
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 2: threatened to leave him several times, and then they started

462
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 2: having affairs on each other as well. And Jenny had

463
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,399
Speaker 2: threatened several times to divorce Tip. But the thing that

464
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 2: it kept coming back to in her mind is that

465
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 2: the way the law worked in California, then in order

466
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,000
Speaker 2: to be entitled to anything that your spouse has, you

467
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:05,760
Speaker 2: have to be married at least ten years.

468
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:06,200
Speaker 1: Wow.

469
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 2: If you get divorced before that, then he would have

470
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 2: basically gotten to take everything. If she made it to

471
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 2: ten years, then she'd be entitled half of everything that

472
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 2: Tip had. So in her mind, as many times as

473
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 2: she threatened to leave him and divorce him, in her

474
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 2: mind she started thinking, you know what, I got married

475
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,159
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy. I just need to make it to

476
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty and then I can divorce him and I'll

477
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,240
Speaker 2: get half his money. And he was worth millions at

478
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:28,680
Speaker 2: that time.

479
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,240
Speaker 1: What is life like for Brian her son?

480
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 2: That's one of the actually good parts of the story.

481
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,120
Speaker 2: When Jenny quit Hollywood in nineteen sixty eight to kind

482
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 2: of repair her relationship with Brian. In in the early sixties,

483
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 2: they barely knew each other. Brian only saw his mom

484
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 2: every couple times a month or so. But in the

485
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 2: late sixties and then into the early seventies, they started

486
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 2: having a great relationship and Jenny became a genuinely good

487
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 2: mom to Brian. They were more i would say, more

488
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 2: friends than they were mother's son. You know. They would

489
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 2: drink wine together, and Jenny was, in her own way,

490
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 2: the best mother that she could be to Brian at

491
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 2: that time. So by the time he was in high school,

492
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 2: he just adored his mother. By that time, Jenny's mom

493
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 2: had passed away. Jenny's mom died in nineteen seventy, but

494
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 2: her dad, Johnny, he would come out to la all

495
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 2: the time to visit with them. Jenny had these three

496
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,159
Speaker 2: men in her life. She had Tip her husband, Brian

497
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 2: her son, and Johnny her father. She couldn't stand one

498
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 2: of them, her husband, but she adored the other two

499
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 2: and they would spend all this time together and those

500
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 2: were the best times in her life.

501
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,120
Speaker 1: Do you think there were tensions between Tip and Brian

502
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 1: or Tip and Johnny?

503
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,640
Speaker 2: Her father nobody liked Tip. Brian was scared death of them.

504
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 2: The only thing that they could find in common to

505
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 2: talk about was fishing. Tip and Johnny just kind of

506
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 2: tolerated each other. And they were about the same age too,

507
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 2: which is kind of strange. Have your dad and your

508
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:52,479
Speaker 2: husband be the same age.

509
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,679
Speaker 1: What about your mom? Did your mom see Jenny after

510
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 1: the days of babysitting this little girl in a small

511
00:23:58,359 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 1: apartment in New.

512
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 2: York, really lost touch with all of her family, aside

513
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 2: from her dad and her mom when she moved to Hollywood.

514
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 2: You know, it wasn't anything malicious. It wasn't like she

515
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 2: was intentionally trying to cut out people in her life.

516
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 2: But she and my mom would write letters to each other,

517
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 2: you know, every year or so, just to kind of

518
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 2: keep in touch, and they sent Christmas cards to each other.

519
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 2: But I don't think my mom ever saw Jenny again

520
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 2: after she had gone to Hollywood and become a star.

521
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,640
Speaker 1: So her relationship with Tip is deteriorating, and she's determined

522
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 1: to make it to nineteen eighty, which is the ten

523
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,360
Speaker 1: year mark, and either hoping I'm presuming that this will

524
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:35,920
Speaker 1: get better somehow.

525
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 2: And I don't even think she was thinking it would

526
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 2: or even hoping that it would get better. She could

527
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 2: not stand Tip and she couldn't wait to be divorced

528
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 2: from him. They had a lot of affairs on each other.

529
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 2: And the affairs that Tip had were more like long

530
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 2: term ones. He would, you know, have an affair with

531
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 2: someone for six months or a year, or it's more

532
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,959
Speaker 2: deceit exactly, and Jenny's were more one night stands, and

533
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,479
Speaker 2: they were mostly to her Tip because she hated him

534
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,719
Speaker 2: that much. The people that she was having these one

535
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 2: night stands with a lot of time were like his

536
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 2: friends and people that Tip knew really well. You cannot

537
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 2: imagine a more toxic relationship in marriage than they had.

538
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 2: That's what they were living in.

539
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: Why did he not divorce her if he was miserable too.

540
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 2: I think that he thought that he was getting too

541
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 2: old to get another Hollywood arm candy wife, and he

542
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 2: still wanted her around for that reason.

543
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: We are approaching nineteen eighty. Reagan's in the White House

544
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: set the scene for what is coming up. Over the

545
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: next twelve months. For Jenny, where is she at this time?

546
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 1: They're in Hollywood. They're in Beverly Hills.

547
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 2: They lived in Beverly Hills. Her relationship with her son

548
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 2: is fantastic. Ryan is nineteen years old, twenty years old.

549
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 2: They see each other all the time. They just love

550
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 2: going out and getting sushi with each other and staying

551
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,880
Speaker 2: up all night talking about philosophy and politics and religion

552
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 2: and life and everything else. Jenny cannot stand her husband

553
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 2: at that time, and finally, in early nineteen eighty one,

554
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 2: she finally got up the guts to divorce, so she

555
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 2: filed for divorce. She moved out, and she got her

556
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 2: own place on Holt Avenue, Southold Avenue in Beverly Hills.

557
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 1: She is how old and he is how old? At

558
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: this point.

559
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 2: Jenny was thirty nine and Tip was fifty nine.

560
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 1: Okay, so separate places at this point. Are they in

561
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: contact at all? Is there a reason for them to

562
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: be in contact?

563
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,959
Speaker 2: They were in contact, and that's the reason that they

564
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 2: were both together on the day of the murder. I

565
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 2: think Jenny was actively moving toward the divorce. Jenny had

566
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 2: gone into the hospital. She was going to go in

567
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 2: and have this procedure done. She went in there on

568
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 2: June ninth, and she was going to be getting out

569
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 2: of the hospital on June tenth, and she had called

570
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 2: her friend and said, can you come pick me up

571
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 2: at the hospital, and the friend said sure, she was

572
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 2: going to pick her up and bring her home. And

573
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 2: the morning at the tenth she called her friend and said, oh,

574
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 2: you don't have to worry about it. Tip said he's

575
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 2: going to be around. He's going to pick me up

576
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 2: and take me home. Picked up from the hospital, they

577
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 2: stopped and they got something to eat, and then when

578
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 2: they were going into her condo on Southhold Avenue in

579
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 2: Beverly Hills, it was about three o'clock in the afternoon

580
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 2: on June tenth, nineteen eighty one, somebody came up and

581
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 2: shot them. They shot Jenny twice in the head, and

582
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 2: they shot Tip once in the stomach. The first person

583
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 2: who heard the screaming they heard Tip screaming was the

584
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 2: sky working in a grocery store about a block away,

585
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 2: and he heard somebody just screaming, help, help, help, and

586
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 2: he came over and he saw Tip had crawled out

587
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: to the sidewalk out there and was bleeding. Profusely, and

588
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 2: he kind of collapsed on the sidewalk at that point.

589
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 2: By then the police had shown up. The only newspaper

590
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 2: that did a story on this was the Los Angeles Times.

591
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 2: They sent a reporter out to the scene. They did

592
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 2: a story on it, and the cop who was on

593
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 2: the scene at that time. Of course, the first question

594
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 2: you asked is do you know what the motive was?

595
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 2: Do you know what the reason for this this crime was?

596
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 2: At the time, they said, it looks like it was

597
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 2: a botched robbery. It looked like somebody was holding them

598
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 2: up on the sidewalk. They walked them into the lobby,

599
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 2: and then something probably went wrong at that point. We

600
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 2: know who this guy is, Tip Raider. He's a former cop.

601
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 2: He probably tried to do something and tried to stop

602
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: the guy or whatever and then ended up getting both

603
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 2: of them shot. When they did the story the next

604
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 2: day in the LA Times, that's how it was reported

605
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 2: that this was a bossed robbery. The other really fascinating

606
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,880
Speaker 2: thing I think about that story is that it identified

607
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:23,160
Speaker 2: Tip in there as being a well known Hollywood attorney

608
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 2: and talked about some of the cases that he had done.

609
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 2: But for Jenny, it only identified her as Jennifer Raider

610
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 2: his wife.

611
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: Oh wow.

612
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 2: Whoever did that story had absolutely no idea who she

613
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 2: really was. That just twenty years earlier. She was probably

614
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 2: the most famous actress in Hollywood at that time. Now

615
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 2: this is long before you could look something up on

616
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: the internet. You couldn't google and find out. But they

617
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 2: didn't bother to find out that she was actually much

618
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,239
Speaker 2: more famous than he was. But if you look at

619
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 2: the story from that time, it only mentions Tip in

620
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: there she was in the headline is the word wife.

621
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: And it shows how far off the scene she really

622
00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: was at herb Okay, so they have died and sides

623
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: to this column. What is the reaction just in general?

624
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: Did everybody accept that this was a bot? Strawberry?

625
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,959
Speaker 2: My mom got a phone call on June eleventh from Venki,

626
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 2: her cousin over in Norway, who said, oh my god,

627
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 2: Johnny was murdered yesterday in Los Angeles. She goes, what, because, yes,

628
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 2: she was murdered, and we didn't know anything about Tip.

629
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 2: We knew she was married to this guy who was

630
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 2: an attorney out there who probably had some mob connections,

631
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 2: but we had no idea. And I said, well, let

632
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 2: me see what I can find out. At that time,

633
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 2: I was going into my senior year at the University

634
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: of Michigan, and I was a sports reporter for the newspaper,

635
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 2: the student newspaper, the Michigan Daily. Why was the closest

636
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 2: thing that our family had to anyone who was a journalist,

637
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 2: even though I'm a college sports writer. I did think

638
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 2: to myself, I at least knew enough to say, probably

639
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 2: the newspaper on Los Angeles did a story about it,

640
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 2: Maybe I can find something out there. Went to the

641
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 2: Michigan Daily offices and I called out to the La

642
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 2: Times out there, and I told them what I was

643
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 2: looking for and who I was. I'm saying, I'm just

644
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 2: wondering if you can tell me if you guys did

645
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 2: a story on that. She read me the story over

646
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 2: the phone, and that's the story that said that this

647
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 2: was most likely a botched robbery. And those are the

648
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 2: only details in there. So from that point on, for

649
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 2: the next thirty eight years of all of our lives,

650
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 2: that's what we thought happened. As far as Jenny's fans

651
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 2: knew and anyone else in the world knew that it

652
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 2: was a botched robbery.

653
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,479
Speaker 1: What was happening with your mother that brought all this up.

654
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 2: She was just in really poor health. This was in

655
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 2: early twenty and nineteen, late twenty eighteen, early twenty and nineteen.

656
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 2: My mom's health had been kind of going downhill for

657
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 2: a while.

658
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 3: You know.

659
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 2: She would talk about Jenny every so often, and I

660
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 2: would come across like another TV show that she was in,

661
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 2: and I'd find out on YouTube and send it to

662
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 2: my mom, and so would just love to see that.

663
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 2: This wasn't like anything we talked about all the time.

664
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 2: But I also knew that this was always in her hurt,

665
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 2: that she had this kind of nagging issue that she

666
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 2: was never able to get any closure as to what

667
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 2: happened with Jenny. It just struck me and said, you

668
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: know what, I want to see if I can try

669
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 2: to find out whatever happened with Jenny. And then I

670
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 2: just started hunting around on the internet and I finally

671
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 2: came across this one website. I think it's called find

672
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 2: a Grave. Yeah, people are able to leave like little

673
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 2: flowers and messages for someone when they passed away.

674
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: I use that side often. You can find so many

675
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: people that way. You can find the children of people

676
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: who were deceased, and it's been interesting.

677
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. The thing that was really helpful for me is

678
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: that people would leave comments on there, particularly on Jenny's birthday.

679
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 2: Ninety nine percent of them are Blue Hawaii fans, just

680
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 2: you know, praying for you today. And there's this one

681
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 2: person who left a message on there, and she made

682
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 2: it clear for the message on there that she knew

683
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 2: Jenny and that she was her friend. So I was

684
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 2: able to track this woman down. She didn't know what

685
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 2: happened to Jenny, but she was able to give me

686
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 2: a whole lot of information about what Jenny's life was

687
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 2: like in the seventies and who she hung around with

688
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 2: and what she did. And she's the one who told

689
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 2: me a lot about how horrible Jenny's marriage was. To

690
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 2: tip that filled in a lot of the blanks that

691
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 2: we'd never heard before. I got a hold of the

692
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 2: guy who was the cop who was on the scene

693
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 2: that very first day. There's a guy named John Dile,

694
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 2: and he was the one who was quoted in the

695
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 2: article as saying it looks like it was a bosch robbery.

696
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 2: He didn't know what happened either, but he was able

697
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 2: to film a lot more the information about what the

698
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,479
Speaker 2: murder seem was like. And so he said, you're going

699
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 2: to want to call the Wilsher Division Detective Bureau because

700
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 2: they're the ones who would have handled this at the time.

701
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 2: Maybe there's somebody there who can find the file, who

702
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 2: can tell you what happened.

703
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 1: But this is almost forty years ago right at this

704
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: point when you're investigating this.

705
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 2: Yes, twenty nineteen, and the murder was in nineteeny one,

706
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 2: so that's thirty.

707
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: Eight years, so you're being a detective.

708
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 2: I was a detective anyway. It was such a rusher

709
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 2: every time I'd come up with a new bit of information.

710
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: Every time after I would talk to someone that I'd

711
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 2: immediately call my mom and tell her what I heard.

712
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 2: So he told me to call the Wilsher Division a

713
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 2: detective bureau. So I did that. The guy who answered

714
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 2: the phone is this detective who was in his early thirties,

715
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 2: so he wasn't even alive when this happened. I told

716
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 2: him about the case and he said, I've never heard

717
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 2: this before. This sounds really interesting. He said, well, let

718
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 2: me see what I can find out. Call me back

719
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 2: a couple days later. He said that he had spent

720
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 2: an entire day. They had a room in there that

721
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 2: had all these boxes of files, and these are files

722
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 2: that have not yet been digitized, and they went back

723
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 2: all the way, you know, before nineteen eighty one. I

724
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 2: started looking through these boxes and he goes and I

725
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 2: found a file that had a stickerund there that had

726
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 2: the names of the two cops who were the detectives

727
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 2: who investigated the case. It said Fiests and Rogers. Rogers

728
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 2: was a guy named Jerry Rogers, and he died in

729
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 2: the late eighties of a heart attack. But these was

730
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 2: a guy named Mike These and he's still around. I

731
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 2: emailed him, told him who I was and what I

732
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 2: was looking for. So the next day, Mike theiast called me, said,

733
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 2: we actually solved that case, like ten days after it happened.

734
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 2: I know exactly what happened. He told me everything that

735
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 2: had happened. I called my mom. I was able to

736
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 2: tell her and it was about two weeks after that

737
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 2: that my mom passed away.

738
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, well tell me the story what happened.

739
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 2: He was looking all over the murder scene to find

740
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 2: out what had happened. They looked for the murder weapon.

741
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 2: They couldn't find that anywhere they were just to kind

742
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 2: of remind you what happened at the day of the murders.

743
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 2: So Jenny was shot at the scene. She was shot

744
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 2: twice in the head in the lobby, right in the lobby. Correct.

745
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 2: Tip was shot once in the stomach, and then he

746
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 2: died about two and a half hours later.

747
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: Very painful.

748
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,719
Speaker 2: Oh, I can't mane imagine. But he also said that

749
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 2: nothing was taken there. Jenny had her person, there was

750
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 2: a lot of money in there that she had a

751
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 2: few as he had jewelry on and nothing was taken.

752
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 2: So he said, this whole idea of it being a

753
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 2: botched robbery was false. We knew that right away.

754
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: That seems risky. This is really risky to me. For

755
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 1: some reason, it just seems public to me.

756
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 2: The other thing he told me too, is he said,

757
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 2: if if somebody's going to rob someone, number one, they're

758
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 2: not going to do it at three o'clock afternoon in

759
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 2: the middle of Beverly Hills. He said, number two, they're

760
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 2: not going to rob a couple. They're usually going to

761
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 2: find a single female. They're not going to rob somebody

762
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 2: who has a big, burly guy.

763
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not an easy target. None of this is easy.

764
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 2: Then they started interviewing some of Tips and Jenny's friends.

765
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,879
Speaker 2: They found out about how toxic their relationship was. And

766
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,359
Speaker 2: the first big break for them came when they ran

767
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 2: the registration of the car that Tip was driving that

768
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 2: he picked Jenny up in, and they found that the

769
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 2: car was registered to Red Tracton, who owned the restaurant

770
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 2: that I was talking about earlier where all the mob

771
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 2: guys hung out. So, for whatever reason, Tip was driving

772
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 2: a car that was not his car, but it was

773
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 2: registered to Red Tracton, and so Mike the said, so

774
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 2: we went out and Encino. We sat next to red

775
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,919
Speaker 2: Tracton's pool and interviewed him and he told us that yeah,

776
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 2: Tip had been doing a lot of work for him

777
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 2: and he didn't want any money, but he said, I

778
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 2: want you to give me a car because and I

779
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 2: don't know why he wanted me to give him a car,

780
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 2: but I had several cars and I think it was

781
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 2: a big Lincoln Continental. Mike thest now is going, okay,

782
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 2: so there's something going on here with the car Tip

783
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 2: was driving. So then they looked in the trunk of

784
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 2: the car and they found there were four guns in

785
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 2: there and in addition to the four guns, there were

786
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 2: these boxes of ammo. It was this really really rare

787
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: ammunition that was made in Indiana and had been off

788
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,439
Speaker 2: the market for about ten years. And when they ran

789
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 2: the ballistics on the bullets that killed Jenny and that

790
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,240
Speaker 2: shot Tip, they found that it was the exact AMMO

791
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 2: that Tip had in his trunk. So at this point

792
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,839
Speaker 2: they're going, all right, it's obvious to us that Tip

793
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 2: at least knew who the killer was, that either he

794
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 2: had given the killer the ammo or that the guy

795
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 2: had stolen the ammo. That's when they really cracked the case.

796
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 2: They interviewed some people that they knew that knew Tip

797
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 2: really well. The main person that they talked to was

798
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 2: a private investigator the Tip had worked with a lot.

799
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,919
Speaker 2: This is a former cop named Danny Stewart, who Tip

800
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 2: had represented in a case about ten years earlier. And

801
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 2: Danny told them that, Yeah, about a month ago, Tip

802
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 2: had come to me and asked me if I would

803
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 2: do a job for him, or if I knew somebody

804
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:35,840
Speaker 2: who would do a job for him. And it was

805
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 2: clear to me that what he was asking me to

806
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 2: do was to either kill Jenny or find someone to

807
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 2: kill Jenny. He was sick and tired of everything, and

808
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 2: he wanted to have Jenny out of his life. Did

809
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 2: and want her to get any of his money. He

810
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 2: wanted to kill her and be done with it. Basically,

811
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 2: the story that they heard from a couple other people

812
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 2: that Tip tried to hire is that Tip wanted to

813
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 2: find somebody who would kill Jenny and then wound him

814
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 2: gosh to make it look like this was a botched robbery.

815
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 2: It was supposed to just be a really tiny little

816
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,399
Speaker 2: fleshmound in the side of his stomach. This would give

817
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 2: Tip an alibi then and he would be off the hook.

818
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 2: He would just you know, he'd be in pain for

819
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 2: a few weeks, but then he would be free of

820
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 2: Jenny and his life would be all set again.

821
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,240
Speaker 1: Boy, did he hire the wrong hitman?

822
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 2: Didn't He either hired the wrong hit man or he

823
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 2: turned his stomach a little too much at the wrong time.

824
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 2: But that's what was in this file that had been

825
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 2: sitting in the la Police Department for the last forty years.

826
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 2: Almost that it was Tip Raider who essentially killed himself

827
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 2: and killed Jenny Maxwell. Now, the one thing that we

828
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 2: don't know is who he ended up hiring to do

829
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 2: the job.

830
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: Somebody connected to Red, wouldn't you think?

831
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 2: Probably a hit man that he had met at Red

832
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 2: Track Steakhouse. He said, you know, we could keep looking

833
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 2: for this guy, and we did for a while after that,

834
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 2: but we kind of realized that he'd hired a professional,

835
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 2: and this is somebody that's not going to make it easier.

836
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 2: It disappeared for you to find who they are. Right,

837
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 2: that's the truth as to what happened to Jenny until

838
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 2: it was the tip raider was responsible for it, and

839
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 2: the truth of been out there. So I asked Mike

840
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 2: at any reporter ever try to follow up with you

841
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 2: or he said, now goes. And I didn't really view

842
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 2: it as my job to call the La Times and say, hey,

843
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,439
Speaker 2: by the way, we saw that that crime. He wrote

844
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 2: it all down, put it in the file, and it

845
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 2: had been sitting there until I called him up and

846
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 2: asked him about it.

847
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 1: Your mom, here's this information, and you unspool all of

848
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 1: us for her while she's sick. What is her reaction

849
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 1: to what you're telling her?

850
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 2: I think the overwhelming emotion that she felt was closure

851
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 2: at that point, knowing that it wasn't something that Jenny

852
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 2: was involved in or anything that Jenny had done wrong,

853
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,280
Speaker 2: or that she was mixed up with drugs or anything

854
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 2: like that, and there was somebody coming to get her

855
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 2: the other thing that Jenny did wrong and she married

856
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 2: a horrible man. So I think having that closure in

857
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,240
Speaker 2: her mind because she just adored Jenny when they were kids,

858
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: and it was that to have that kind of closure

859
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:54,919
Speaker 2: in her heart, you know, before she went, I think

860
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 2: was something that was really important to her.

861
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 1: Well in your good role model too for younger generations

862
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,839
Speaker 1: in your family, to just show how important family is

863
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: and communication and knowing your family history. I talk to

864
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 1: my kids about that all the time, how important family

865
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 1: history is and that connection that we have. And you

866
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: were able to solve one of the big mysteries in

867
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 1: your family.

868
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 2: But I've been able to use this story with my

869
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 2: own kids and telling them about somebody that we know

870
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 2: none of us ever met. I never met Jenny, but

871
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 2: I feel so much closer to her now and even

872
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 2: to my entire family that I've been able to immerse

873
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 2: myself into this story and share that with all of them.

874
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words.

875
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,760
Speaker 3: The stories that I would hear is Omar his brother

876
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 3: would stop and eat a hot dog on a corpse.

877
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,720
Speaker 3: He would sit on the corpse and use it as

878
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Speaker 3: a bench so that he could eat his lunch. They

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Speaker 3: found it amusing to torture people.

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Speaker 4: And watch them die.

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Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my

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Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death in the Air. This has

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Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold more Media Production Alexis and

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Speaker 1: Morosi is our producer, Andrew Epen is our sound designer.

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Speaker 1: Ellen Middleton is a researcher for us. Curtis Heath does

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Speaker 1: the composition, Nick Toga did the artwork, and ilsa Brink

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Speaker 1: design the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen

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