Speaker 1: This is How Men Think? And Gavin de grab and
Speaker 1: I heard radio podcast. Welcome to another episode of How
Speaker 1: Men Think. My name is Brooks Like and I'm super
Speaker 1: excited to get back into this one because if you
Speaker 1: listened last week, we had one of the most polarizing,
Speaker 1: most incredible debates, most intensity in the studio last week
Speaker 1: with Boris and back with us again is Eve Rodsky
Speaker 1: to discuss her new book, fair Play. And it's a
Speaker 1: hot topic. It's a hot button issue we're gonna get
Speaker 1: into today. Carry on from last week. It's about the
Speaker 1: roles in the household and specifically the sharing of roles
Speaker 1: between men and women. And my buddy gave here is
Speaker 1: still fired up about this, and I wish this was
Speaker 1: on TV because he's kicking back, he's got his arms crossed,
Speaker 1: he's shaking his head, and you're thinking, why does anybody
Speaker 1: want to get married? No, I'm thinking, how I mean
Speaker 1: when I hear all these all I seem to year
Speaker 1: are problems. You know, you know that everybody's just complaining
Speaker 1: about each other and and and it's it's it's almost
Speaker 1: like people are looking for silver silver linings more than
Speaker 1: blue skies. You know what, I'm saying, oh, there's a
Speaker 1: silver lining. We worked through it and that's why we're strong.
Speaker 1: But there's still a cloud and and and and it's
Speaker 1: it's hard to listen to. I have to say, it's
Speaker 1: it's about your society though, about how it's changed, because
Speaker 1: I think that's really important. Yeah, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: as I was listening to, do you guys discuss uh,
Speaker 1: you know, raising kids and sharing responsibilities and things like that,
Speaker 1: all of the all of the you know, the gripes
Speaker 1: about it or the difficulties about are completely valid, completely valid.
Speaker 1: I totally understand. But you know, society has changed so
Speaker 1: much it's almost unfair to expect one person or two
Speaker 1: people to raise a child anymore, not anymore to raise
Speaker 1: a child alone. See, we have we have neighborhoods. Now
Speaker 1: in modern society, we have neighborhoods, but we don't have
Speaker 1: we don't have communities. So so you know, maybe maybe, however,
Speaker 1: many years ago, you know, maybe if the you know,
Speaker 1: in a in a tribal society, it makes more sense. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, the you have kids and then
Speaker 1: the tribe shares the responsibility because you know, the men
Speaker 1: go off hunting and and I don't know what the
Speaker 1: women's roles work, but but they're you know, they're making pottery,
Speaker 1: they're they're cooking, they're gathering, yeah and yeah, and they
Speaker 1: have they have their roles, and the men had their
Speaker 1: roles and the kids. The kids would be with the
Speaker 1: with the women at least until a certain age. And
Speaker 1: the boys that go off and you know, they learn
Speaker 1: hunting and things like that do all their different things.
Speaker 1: And right now in society, I feel like too much
Speaker 1: is expected of one person or two people as parents,
Speaker 1: and there is no community to rely on. And I
Speaker 1: guess that may be part of the you know, the
Speaker 1: the evolution of what you know, the schools have become.
Speaker 1: The schools have sort of developed into these these child
Speaker 1: rearing institutions, you know, just to make it easier on
Speaker 1: the parents or whatever, um, to take some of the
Speaker 1: daytime responsibilities out or whatever, so so the parents can
Speaker 1: go out and you know, earn a living or make
Speaker 1: enough tax money, uh for you know, the government to
Speaker 1: continue functioning. Um. You know. So I just I just
Speaker 1: feel like it's it's I don't think it's one or two.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's the one person or the couple.
Speaker 1: That is the problem. I think the social structure is
Speaker 1: really the has become the issue, and the fact that
Speaker 1: there is no community in existence, in existence that really
Speaker 1: helps raise kids. And because yes, we do live in
Speaker 1: a neighborhood, but we do not live in communities, and
Speaker 1: so we're not trusting powerful point. That's a massive social problem.
Speaker 1: It's not the problem of the couple. The couple is
Speaker 1: absorbing that problem, and that is the fundamental that is
Speaker 1: the disease. It's also but it's also our own fault then,
Speaker 1: and it's also our own fault individually. If I move
Speaker 1: into a new if I moved to a new town,
Speaker 1: new city, new neighborhood and I do not make the
Speaker 1: effort to make friends, I will have no friends. I'll
Speaker 1: have no community. I'll live in a town but have
Speaker 1: no community. And I used to think this way about
Speaker 1: New York. I used to I'm my hometown six people,
Speaker 1: everybody knows everybody, You know everybody for the next twenty
Speaker 1: towns over. And when I'd go to New York to
Speaker 1: play hockey, I'm like, Damn, there's the most unfriendly city ever.
Speaker 1: Everybody walks by you without with their head down on
Speaker 1: the ground looking at their feet. No, he says, hi,
Speaker 1: how's your day when you pass somebody on a sidewalk.
Speaker 1: And then then it clicked in me. People are only
Speaker 1: as friendly to me as I am to them, and
Speaker 1: my world changed. I said hi to people and say hey, man,
Speaker 1: how are you doing. There were a lot of people
Speaker 1: were surprised by they had taken back from New York scared,
Speaker 1: but my world at least changed, and at least I
Speaker 1: took a step into versus just saying, well, this is
Speaker 1: New York and it's an unfriendly city. Let me see
Speaker 1: what my role in this being an unfriendly city is.
Speaker 1: So in same thing in the community, same thing an
Speaker 1: apartment building, same thing city, new job, office building. But
Speaker 1: they didn't say when you said, hey, it's nice to
Speaker 1: meet you. Here, hold my baby, and I'll be back
Speaker 1: in four hours, you know what I mean. So there's
Speaker 1: only trust there. But I do think that that is
Speaker 1: a big problem. I think that one of the things
Speaker 1: I also saw in my research was that women and
Speaker 1: men were expecting so much out of each other. We're
Speaker 1: expecting two much, meaning that we were expecting everything my
Speaker 1: partner to be everything to me, And so I talk
Speaker 1: a lot about in the book about how important it
Speaker 1: is to also have spiritual friendships. And what I mean
Speaker 1: by that is, you know, it came out of sort
Speaker 1: of my interviews with clergy for the book, and this
Speaker 1: idea that if you don't have a community anymore, right,
Speaker 1: because it used to be sort of around churches, um
Speaker 1: and synagogues and mosques, but we don't really have We
Speaker 1: have more secular society these days, and so there's less
Speaker 1: built in community. People are going to church less, there's
Speaker 1: less places to find those built in daycares and villages.
Speaker 1: So what I found was that one rabbi actually said
Speaker 1: to me, this idea of spiritual friendship someone who wakes
Speaker 1: you up when you're asleep, someone who can come in
Speaker 1: and say, I'll hold your baby. And I think it's
Speaker 1: really beautiful for men and women to have that, because
Speaker 1: this is what I saw about men men. A lot
Speaker 1: of men were saying to me, I'm waiting for my
Speaker 1: wife to sort of see who she's friends with, to
Speaker 1: sort of make my own friendships, and so yeah, like
Speaker 1: a lot of men were saying that they only have
Speaker 1: friends through their their partners. Yeah, I'm telling you, you
Speaker 1: may not believe this, but I went out there everywhere.
Speaker 1: I went to interviews from men from every single state
Speaker 1: in this kind of except for North Dakota in South Dakota.
Speaker 1: But other than that, they were do you know who
Speaker 1: you interviewed? You interviewed people who were willing to be interviewed.
Speaker 1: And the fundamentals of the fundamentals of interviewers and surveys
Speaker 1: is that you're always going to get a lean in
Speaker 1: a direction that is unfair. It can never really be
Speaker 1: true cross section society because I would never do, uh,
Speaker 1: one of those things on the street. Hey, will you
Speaker 1: take this sort of like out of here? You know
Speaker 1: what I mean? Tell me do you have your own friends? Oh? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so when I moved here from me, I want to
Speaker 1: hear about your own friendships. A lot of women do
Speaker 1: not want their husbands to have female friendships because they
Speaker 1: feel threatened, and I think they're doing themselves at this
Speaker 1: service because one person cannot fulfill pletely. Well, I'm actually
Speaker 1: curious about your listeners. I'd love for them to reach
Speaker 1: out and for them to say, do they really have,
Speaker 1: you know, their own friends that aren't through their partners.
Speaker 1: I'd be curious. So a couple of things on that
Speaker 1: On what you just on, what you just said Amy
Speaker 1: about I do not believe. And I say this to
Speaker 1: my wife. You ask my wife this. I tell her
Speaker 1: all the time. I cannot fulfill everything for you. You
Speaker 1: cannot fulfill everything for me. It's not possible. You need
Speaker 1: other friendships, other energies, other perspectives, other conversations, other hugs,
Speaker 1: other laughter than myself. And I need it to so
Speaker 1: love you, but I also need it to somebody else.
Speaker 1: So that's number one. By the way, How great that
Speaker 1: you actually communicated that back to communication. We know that, right.
Speaker 1: It's not a defensive thing. It's just that's you need
Speaker 1: more than me. Um. The second thing. When we got
Speaker 1: engaged in twenty uh get, I moved to l A.
Speaker 1: I was living in Anada in the off season and
Speaker 1: living playing hockey in Washington, d C. I moved to
Speaker 1: l A where I knew my wife and maybe like
Speaker 1: one other person. So I got here. She would introduce
Speaker 1: me to her friends. We'd go to an event or
Speaker 1: a friend's house. I'd meet friends through her. That's how
Speaker 1: my community started, because that was natural, that was the
Speaker 1: natural flory. But I realized very early on that I
Speaker 1: need my friends. Where's my people and so joining a gym,
Speaker 1: joining an organization, going to the beach, going to other
Speaker 1: going to the dog park, met a ton of people
Speaker 1: at the dog park, where all of a sudden, now
Speaker 1: I have my people that I'm telling her about that
Speaker 1: she doesn't know, and that's my support system, my community
Speaker 1: that's not dependent upon her and I relationship. And I
Speaker 1: think that's healthy. Key, but it's so healthy, and it's
Speaker 1: so important in the fair play system. I deal you
Speaker 1: three cards. You have to take. One of them is
Speaker 1: adult friendships, and it became from my Dada, Gavin. You know,
Speaker 1: whether or not you want to believe it. I just
Speaker 1: said all that escaped because people like me would never
Speaker 1: take I think I think that's correct. But also, people
Speaker 1: like you're also still singing. People lie. Actually, people like
Speaker 1: me are choosing to be So I don't think that
Speaker 1: being single as a play, it's not a problem. That's
Speaker 1: a I think it's a it's absolutely a choice. Group.
Speaker 1: People are so shamed against it's literally you're But I
Speaker 1: wasn't shaming you. I'm jealous. Are less shameful of somebody
Speaker 1: in an atrociously bad marriage? Then? But oh no, I
Speaker 1: wasn't actually saying anything The reason I was saying why
Speaker 1: that your single is why you may not believe that
Speaker 1: is because I do think that when you are choosing
Speaker 1: right to have to be single, you're also saying, like,
Speaker 1: I understand that I have my own identity, I have
Speaker 1: my own life, I have my own going on right
Speaker 1: beyond that right, so I hear the problems of married
Speaker 1: people and you all scare the living better. Let me
Speaker 1: talk about this. I had a teammate once I think
Speaker 1: I said this. I had a veteran teammate guy I
Speaker 1: looked up. So I had a guy I looked up
Speaker 1: to on my team, um father, husband, respected, integral guy.
Speaker 1: And he said one comment to me that stuck with
Speaker 1: me for years until I had to trash it myself.
Speaker 1: He said, Brooksie, relationships are about doing ship you don't
Speaker 1: want to do. And so I took this on. It's
Speaker 1: like wow. I was like, man, but this was this
Speaker 1: was somebody that I looked up to. This was a
Speaker 1: respected guy. I respected him as a man, as a husband,
Speaker 1: as a father. And then when I heard him say that,
Speaker 1: I was my perspective of relation term to like wow,
Speaker 1: I tipped my cap to every guy that's married because
Speaker 1: he's got that work had on how do you stay married?
Speaker 1: And then I was in a relationship that was that.
Speaker 1: And then when I became aware of that, I'm like, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1: Relationships are not about doing you don't want to do.
Speaker 1: Relationships are about risking a lot of pain, really put
Speaker 1: yourself out. Excuse me. There is you don't want to do.
Speaker 1: But you don't want to take your child to hold
Speaker 1: their hand, maybe at the doctor's office in the middle
Speaker 1: of the work day or anything. But you don't want
Speaker 1: but but but but it is part of what ultimately
Speaker 1: a lot of people choose to do. They choose to
Speaker 1: have a child with their significant other, and when you
Speaker 1: bring that person into the world, first of all, that
Speaker 1: would be an honor for me. So I'm talking about
Speaker 1: I'm talking about being in a relationship and and being
Speaker 1: I have no issue with being in a relationship. Relationships
Speaker 1: are awesome. It's about being in a relationship where you
Speaker 1: feel you may be stuck with someone who essentially is
Speaker 1: resenting you twenty three of twenty four hours of the
Speaker 1: day and then told socially, societally told and pressured you
Speaker 1: better make it work it and therefore and if it
Speaker 1: doesn't work, being disciplined find essentially monetarily because it didn't
Speaker 1: work out. You see how corrupt that system truly is.
Speaker 1: Potentially that if it didn't work out, it can cost
Speaker 1: you not just the heartbreak, but everything you've earned or
Speaker 1: a portion of it is a system. But then it's
Speaker 1: right to get You have to get it right marriage.
Speaker 1: There's no problem with marriage, that's the first but to
Speaker 1: be in a scenario where people are told they have
Speaker 1: to work through things that could be the first time.
Speaker 1: Because my girlfriend married a guy for a million different reasons.
Speaker 1: This dinner, so I call it it. I'm not arguing
Speaker 1: about chicken. She makes this dinner for him and the kids, chicken,
Speaker 1: and he comes home and says, lucky, I didn't have
Speaker 1: chicken for lunch. And I'm like, I'm not having it.
Speaker 1: And that doesn't not everybody, but I'll see what I mean.
Speaker 1: But I'll tell you about get it right the first time? Why? Well,
Speaker 1: why I believe that Fair plays well. It's a pro
Speaker 1: marriage book because I went to men who were in
Speaker 1: their second marriages, who have children from their first marriages
Speaker 1: and their second marriages, and they are doing a lot
Speaker 1: of Maybe you don't want to do right, you take
Speaker 1: out the garbage. Adulting is stuff we don't want to do,
Speaker 1: doing the dishes, transporting kids. It takes forty three steps
Speaker 1: in the morning to get out the door with children,
Speaker 1: forty three steps that you have to get through. These
Speaker 1: are things we don't always want to do, but it is.
Speaker 1: But but these are things, even without their sixty cards
Speaker 1: in the fair play deck that apply to relationships without kids,
Speaker 1: that you have to do in a household. I don't
Speaker 1: take forty three steps to get out the door every day, No,
Speaker 1: that's that is the one that is the morning routine card.
Speaker 1: But there's sixty cards that are apply to relationships without
Speaker 1: kids that we may not even know we're doing with
Speaker 1: each other right, household things that we have to do.
Speaker 1: But what happens right is when you end up focusing
Speaker 1: on that as opposed to values and communication and to
Speaker 1: why you got married in the first time, you end
Speaker 1: up leaving those relationships. And so I have a lot
Speaker 1: of men in second marriages who are doing more of
Speaker 1: those things that may seem like daily grinds that are
Speaker 1: harder to transporting their kids to school, or doing the
Speaker 1: dishes or taking the garbage out, all the crap that
Speaker 1: adult ing means the finances bill, paying whatever, and they
Speaker 1: say to me, I asked them, what's their One guy asked,
Speaker 1: I said, what's your advice? You know, you seem so
Speaker 1: much happy in your second marriage. You're really involved with
Speaker 1: your kids. And he said to me, my advice to
Speaker 1: men out there would be to get it right the
Speaker 1: first time, because so much pain and stress I went
Speaker 1: through with my first marriage, and monetary problems right, and
Speaker 1: and penalization from having to go through a divorce. It's
Speaker 1: a penalty. And he felt crushed, crushed, and his kids
Speaker 1: were to be essentially monetarily fined for not working out
Speaker 1: in relationship. What about the kids that are involved system?
Speaker 1: What about the kids that are involved to They're fine.
Speaker 1: I was fine when my father left, Yes, and he
Speaker 1: did get at the second time. We are right. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of emotional society costs from the divorce. So
Speaker 1: what I'm saying is like, why not invest in having
Speaker 1: these conversations earlier, sitting down with expectations. Gavin, you and
Speaker 1: I talked about how do you value garbage? But you
Speaker 1: have triggers over garbage from your childhood. We don't have
Speaker 1: these conversations and we're dating but we have garbage. But
Speaker 1: even even the kind of even I want to learn
Speaker 1: about how you grew up. Tell me about yours from
Speaker 1: him as my boyfriend's, because this is the one big
Speaker 1: question I really have. Gavin and I have to do
Speaker 1: the dishes. We have to take the garbage out, we
Speaker 1: have to do the laundry, we have to do all. Yes,
Speaker 1: I live alone, but no one is nagging us about
Speaker 1: not getting the blue. I live alone. Man, I got
Speaker 1: a dog. I have an awesome life. I have a dog,
Speaker 1: I have a great house. I got a dishwasher, I
Speaker 1: got a friend. Whatever I need done around the house,
Speaker 1: I do, or like someone will come clean the house.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. And you know how many
Speaker 1: arguments I have to have. When the person comes to
Speaker 1: clean the house, I give them. I give a little
Speaker 1: their fee for the day they come and they clean
Speaker 1: the house. I'm out of the house, they clean, I
Speaker 1: come back. The house is clean. I didn't argue with
Speaker 1: anybody they took out the garbage if I hadn't taken
Speaker 1: it out. But other than that, it's just easy breezy.
Speaker 1: But Gavin, you're talking about expectations. You guys are talking
Speaker 1: about expectations here what happens right when you come in
Speaker 1: and we have a different expectation. You know what's the
Speaker 1: opposite of expectations is I talked about this in the
Speaker 1: book disappointment. You know what the worst emotion is besides grief, disappointment.
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to be disappointed. So I'd rather take out
Speaker 1: the garbage myself, right or understand that I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: as opposed to feeling like Gavin, you're my boyfriend and
Speaker 1: you didn't take it out for me, and now I'm
Speaker 1: disappointed in you. That's how all this starts without having
Speaker 1: real conversation about your values. Over domestic life, we have
Speaker 1: to treat our home like our most important organization. Argument
Speaker 1: over chicken? Ever, both of you guys, you haven't and
Speaker 1: Amy like you can have everything you want and still
Speaker 1: have that partner. We have help at our house. Did
Speaker 1: have an argument over toothpaste and a coffee cup? No,
Speaker 1: it's not an argument. Okay, most people do. People has blueberry,
Speaker 1: So okay, anyway, what bore us had over orange juice?
Speaker 1: But there's gonna be, There's gonna be, There's gonna be
Speaker 1: something whatever it is that brings about like a person
Speaker 1: can only tolerate so much, you'll tolerate a little bit,
Speaker 1: you'll tolerate a little bit more, and then there'll be
Speaker 1: one time that you're not willing to tolerate it. And
Speaker 1: then we'll reference that one time about the blueberries, about
Speaker 1: the coffee cup that plain. Yeah, we're just gonna reference
Speaker 1: Jennifer Anderson. I want you to want to do this.
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. Here is here is the over
Speaker 1: arching umbrella of it all. In my opinion and based
Speaker 1: off my life experience, a job, a career, a whatever else,
Speaker 1: anything else to passion, anything else in this world will
Speaker 1: never be as intriguing to you as your loving relationship.
Speaker 1: And that's that's that's number one. This is predictor of longevity.
Speaker 1: Do you know that the Harvard study out of Boston
Speaker 1: for men, for men, women have different predictors of longevity.
Speaker 1: For men, one of the number one predictors of your
Speaker 1: longevity is you're the quality of your of your relationships.
Speaker 1: Although there is a study that just came out and
Speaker 1: maybe women there's a study that just came out a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago. I'm trying to find it. Single
Speaker 1: women are the happiest of all. Well, they're also the
Speaker 1: healthiest they're how but men if the value proposition for
Speaker 1: men right, it's not about taking out the garbage, It's
Speaker 1: not about finding our blueberries. It's about your longevity, investing
Speaker 1: in conversations about your expectations, what you want in the
Speaker 1: home so that you live a long life and you're
Speaker 1: not having women dump on your pillow and or publicly
Speaker 1: shame you on Instagram. That's my point. Women are the
Speaker 1: happiest and healthiest, So we have like an actual breakdown
Speaker 1: because if married men are happier than they're apparently making
Speaker 1: the women they're married to miserable. Well, that's that's that's
Speaker 1: what's interesting, It's it's interesting. Well, the thing about women,
Speaker 1: right is like we just want them to be able
Speaker 1: to feel like they can communicate. And that's what your
Speaker 1: books you were saying before and there that there is
Speaker 1: willingness and an openness for me to be able to
Speaker 1: sit down with you and say if I'm having a
Speaker 1: hard time, I don't want to help her, I need
Speaker 1: your help. Even the way you just communicated that right
Speaker 1: now to me was differently than how you communicated before.
Speaker 1: And I wish people could see that. And if you
Speaker 1: just play that back and re listen to that, because
Speaker 1: how you communicate. You dropped into a softness there where
Speaker 1: all the weapons were down and just communicated that to me.
Speaker 1: And I'm not even your partner, but it is. And
Speaker 1: we say this, it's how you communicate to your partner.
Speaker 1: But I promise you, and this is speaking from my
Speaker 1: own experience, I am more intrigued by my wife and
Speaker 1: my relationship than the game of hockey, which I spent
Speaker 1: my whole life doing, than doing this podcast and doing
Speaker 1: anything else traveling advantage of anything in the world. My
Speaker 1: wife and my relationship and figuring her out and our
Speaker 1: dance in unison as a married couple is way more
Speaker 1: intriguing than anything else in the world. To me, I agree,
Speaker 1: unless it turns look like with the bag of garbage
Speaker 1: in each other's hands. Yeah, and I you're gonna play
Speaker 1: that the thing I think we do we we do agree.
Speaker 1: We do agree with the with the potential of a
Speaker 1: wonderful relationship and a long lasting relationship and a lifelong
Speaker 1: relationship and a monogamous relationship and one of parenting, and
Speaker 1: all of these beautiful ideas are all perfect. Potentially A
Speaker 1: scary thing. The scary thing is when I will sing,
Speaker 1: is when you get into territory where we need to
Speaker 1: read a book together, that's right to stay together, and
Speaker 1: that's that's what But you know what I'm saying that
Speaker 1: that that's that that's where it gets you have to
Speaker 1: that's where it gets intimidating you as as somebody expectations. Yes,
Speaker 1: you want to know who's thinking of the garbage. I
Speaker 1: will say that I've never been happier in my marriage.
Speaker 1: I will say that I've never been happy in my
Speaker 1: marriage from a place where I was sobbing on the
Speaker 1: side of the road over blueberries, and it was, like
Speaker 1: you said, Brooks, because I was able to finally use
Speaker 1: some of my own learnings from my job as a
Speaker 1: mediator and communicate in a way that isn't drill Sergeant
Speaker 1: for my husband said, I used to talk like I
Speaker 1: have nails on a chalkboard, where that's what I sounded
Speaker 1: like anytime I wo'd ask him to do something, So
Speaker 1: why would he want to do anything if everything I
Speaker 1: said sounded like there are nails on a chalkboard. And
Speaker 1: when I could come in and say with some vulnerability,
Speaker 1: these are things I care about because I'm drowning here
Speaker 1: I'm dying. I can't manage my clients anymore. I'm forgetting
Speaker 1: to return emails. I'm dying under this invisible work. I
Speaker 1: need you to help me. I can't give to you
Speaker 1: and to my kids. I'm losing myself. The most important
Speaker 1: thing was my identity loss. That back to you, what
Speaker 1: you said, Gavin about society. Everybody sold me this bill
Speaker 1: of goods that once you have the beautiful ring and
Speaker 1: the great wedding dress and the kids, my life's over.
Speaker 1: Every I did every milestone I was supposed to get.
Speaker 1: I went to school, I went to Harvard. I did
Speaker 1: everything I was supposed to do. So what happens if
Speaker 1: you wake up one day and you're drowning and you
Speaker 1: don't feel like you are you anymore, and you've lost
Speaker 1: your identity totally and you're self worth? I think I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people can can can see the
Speaker 1: potential for that. If you're if you if you have
Speaker 1: so much on your plate and so much is expected
Speaker 1: of you, and so much goes unseen that you are accomplishing,
Speaker 1: that the smallest thing that you don't get accomplished is
Speaker 1: seen as a giant foul. Right, Yeah, And then of
Speaker 1: course you see yourself ultimately as you're the person who
Speaker 1: is is basically just checking off items on a list
Speaker 1: rather than being a human being potition to be in
Speaker 1: and whereas which you'd rather be as someone who was
Speaker 1: given no list and trusted that you were just gonna
Speaker 1: go get everything that you knew everyone needed and and
Speaker 1: he wants that we're desired. Perhaps the other person could
Speaker 1: go and pick those up if you didn't happen to
Speaker 1: toss those in the baggy. But that's right, and you
Speaker 1: and you want that. And the problem is so many
Speaker 1: women will say to me, well, I just you know
Speaker 1: the time, and it takes me to tell him to
Speaker 1: do he should just figure it out again, but again
Speaker 1: back to so it's just but then that is why
Speaker 1: we need books, right, It's why we need systems and
Speaker 1: card games. No, I didn't say we didn't need books.
Speaker 1: I'm saying you get you know, people can get in
Speaker 1: this this dangerous place of of That's the fear for
Speaker 1: people like like Amy. That's the fear that goes to
Speaker 1: my head is do you end up ultimately accidentally or
Speaker 1: or somehow semi intentionally in this scenario where you're deferring
Speaker 1: to professional of how do I make this thing where work?
Speaker 1: You know, this train is so far off the track.
Speaker 1: I think about it all the time because it's like, yes,
Speaker 1: I have a broken heart right now and it's freaking brutal,
Speaker 1: but sorry, we can talk about it later. Um it's
Speaker 1: so rough, it's literally so that I know that tomorrow
Speaker 1: could be better and the next day after that could
Speaker 1: be better. Whereas I have friends in bad marriages where
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, that's just gonna suck for ever. So
Speaker 1: I think I'm really miserable crying in the bathtub, but
Speaker 1: yet I'm not. That's what's that movie something about Mary.
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, he's like, you're living the dream, but
Speaker 1: he's like, yeah, each day is better than the next.
Speaker 1: It's awesome. It's like, yeah, I'm so good, miserable, but
Speaker 1: I've got hope, Whereas I have these friends that are like, oh,
Speaker 1: they don't have hope. That's right. That's why I love
Speaker 1: Nora Ephron, who will talk about her as a philosopher
Speaker 1: who she says, you could be the victim of your
Speaker 1: own life or your heroine. Right, I mean, at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, if we're just going to sit
Speaker 1: around and just complain and be victims or publicly shame
Speaker 1: our our partners through that she doesn't pick up. Then
Speaker 1: I can't help you if you're not willing to come
Speaker 1: to the table and have the conversations with the books
Speaker 1: in the Gavins of the world to say, like, I
Speaker 1: see your perspective, and I want to be in this
Speaker 1: relationship and I love you, but this is what's you know,
Speaker 1: happening to me right now, and bring your own identity
Speaker 1: into it and say, I hope you can relate to
Speaker 1: what you may not have it happened. It's not happening
Speaker 1: to you with different perspectives, but this is what's happening
Speaker 1: to me. I'm losing my identity. Well, let me let
Speaker 1: me say first of all, I think I think in
Speaker 1: the in the era that we're in, my personal belief
Speaker 1: is that there's too much expected of women in general.
Speaker 1: I think the plate is more than full. It's no
Speaker 1: longer the option, oh should I work? Should I stay home?
Speaker 1: Women have to work. The economy has changed, Okay, you
Speaker 1: would never be able to keep up a single uh
Speaker 1: salary and a single and come home. Can't keep up
Speaker 1: with inflation, okay, it can't compete with the market. Any longer.
Speaker 1: So women have to be out of the house. They
Speaker 1: have to be working. Fundamentally speaking, it's not a choice
Speaker 1: any longer. Right. So, now women are out there working,
Speaker 1: and of course they hit the magic age where they
Speaker 1: have to have kids. Okay, the cloth is ticking. We
Speaker 1: all know that. We all know there's an age that
Speaker 1: comes and most of the time that becomes a new priority,
Speaker 1: and their job, although they're passionate about it, tends to
Speaker 1: take slightly a backseat because they know that clock is
Speaker 1: taking They're going to run out of time. Okay, we
Speaker 1: all know that. That's a fact, right, we all agree
Speaker 1: on that. So so what happens is now they're pressed
Speaker 1: to have kids. Now they have kids. Now, they're happy
Speaker 1: that they have kids. But the economy is still moving
Speaker 1: the way the economy is gonna move. Inflation is still
Speaker 1: happening every year. They have to compete, they have to
Speaker 1: they have to be in the workplace. So now, because
Speaker 1: of their instincts, they want to be with the kids instinctually.
Speaker 1: Instinctually women want to be with their children. But mothers
Speaker 1: have to be with their children biologically, at least up
Speaker 1: until recent time to recent times. But men want the
Speaker 1: same they have the same instinct. They just don't have this.
Speaker 1: We have instincts, we have instincts. There are differences. There
Speaker 1: are differences, and and wind want to be their kids,
Speaker 1: and they want to work, or now they have to work,
Speaker 1: and they want to work, but they're also going. But
Speaker 1: I want to be with the kids. I gotta have
Speaker 1: a breastpump on. I gotta have a breast pump MP.
Speaker 1: It's not something that he says. Something you say, she says,
Speaker 1: but he never says this is too much for me.
Speaker 1: I got the breast pump on the seat here. I
Speaker 1: am right, that's not part of our equation. So, yes,
Speaker 1: there are things that are demanded of women that are
Speaker 1: not demanded of men. It's an unfair amount of things
Speaker 1: to balance trying to take by pointing out that there
Speaker 1: actually are physical differences and to ignore them would be
Speaker 1: a to deny science. Okay, so I think there are
Speaker 1: there would be to deny science. I am on your team.
Speaker 1: But it's become an unfair amount of things for women
Speaker 1: to balance in modern day society period, because you're going
Speaker 1: to want to be with the kids and have to
Speaker 1: be with the kids for a certain amount of time
Speaker 1: period and if you don't, you get shamed. You shame.
Speaker 1: There's a shame on top of everything. But even worse,
Speaker 1: even worse is what you're saying in terms of women
Speaker 1: having children and actually having to be in the workforce.
Speaker 1: The scariest thing is that women lose ten percent of
Speaker 1: their wages. For each child, they have five percent of
Speaker 1: their wages, and that's called the motherhood penalty. So on
Speaker 1: top of everything you just said, I'm being penalized because
Speaker 1: I'm being perceived is not wanting to be in the
Speaker 1: workforce and having some other obligations. Do you think it's
Speaker 1: perception or is it your boss is paying a certain
Speaker 1: amount of money for you to be there? You can't
Speaker 1: be there. You're in you're in labor, you're you're at
Speaker 1: a work or you're taking however from many weeks off. Well,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It is what it is, right,
Speaker 1: So it depends on how you want to value mothers
Speaker 1: in the workplace. What was happening is that men when
Speaker 1: they have a child, they get six percent extra and
Speaker 1: their wages because they're seen is having to take care
Speaker 1: of their family, whereas women are seen as being pulled
Speaker 1: away from the workforce. Right, So that's that's a that's
Speaker 1: a really um, it's a tough, tough, brutal place out
Speaker 1: there for women who want to be mothers, who want
Speaker 1: to stay in the workforce, because then if you're paid
Speaker 1: less than your partner, then you know what happens. Then
Speaker 1: you start saying things like, well, maybe it's not worth
Speaker 1: it for me to be in the workforce, or I'm
Speaker 1: gonna take a career detour, And four of women with
Speaker 1: kids take a career detour. So, like you said, there
Speaker 1: is these unreal expectations. What what would detour would be, uh,
Speaker 1: leaving your job, quitting and then coming back in the workforce.
Speaker 1: A detour would be taking a step down, um, you know,
Speaker 1: not being partner at a law firm, being of counsel,
Speaker 1: and that's what. So but that's a lot of women's
Speaker 1: I also think and we I know we have to go,
Speaker 1: but I want to talk about this next sometime in
Speaker 1: the next episodes, because I literally do think we're forgetting
Speaker 1: how much shame we place on people who don't want
Speaker 1: to have kids and who don't want to get married,
Speaker 1: how much people are much if you're just a person
Speaker 1: looking at a single person or looking at people in
Speaker 1: crappy marriages. People are much more like, oh, but they're
Speaker 1: trying and they need to keep at it and look
Speaker 1: at them they have love and like, is the single
Speaker 1: person so well? Any I'm obsessed with that topic. I
Speaker 1: don't feel that. I don't feel that. I think people
Speaker 1: need to email us, like single women need to email
Speaker 1: men at iHeart Radio and say do you feel like
Speaker 1: such a because back, I'll just say one last thing
Speaker 1: about being so I know we have to go. That
Speaker 1: is a very important point because that's shaming of women
Speaker 1: and men single people in general, especially women. It leads
Speaker 1: to this idea of what I just said to you before,
Speaker 1: what happens if all the milestones you told me in
Speaker 1: society you're supposed to make me happy don't make me happy.
Speaker 1: Can your next book be this? Because let's think that
Speaker 1: article that says single, childless women are the happiest people
Speaker 1: there are other than the stink I were super happy. So, like,
Speaker 1: my next book is called Unicorn Space. It's about what
Speaker 1: happens when you lose your identity, especially after being in
Speaker 1: a couple and with a child, especially for women. Men
Speaker 1: have this happen to them too, because we were told
Speaker 1: these are the things that make us happy, the white pick, events,
Speaker 1: the beautiful house, and I don't need to remember who
Speaker 1: I was before kids anymore, when you can reclaim your passion.
Speaker 1: If I said to you can never sing again, I mean,
Speaker 1: how would that feel to you? I have women men
Speaker 1: all over saying, well, I just I left my skis
Speaker 1: in the airport. I stopped singing. I don't do my
Speaker 1: poetry anymore. I don't think it is, but it's also
Speaker 1: something we have to remind people that it is. It's
Speaker 1: not paid. And back to what you said about a Mary,
Speaker 1: we hold a lot of value for things that are paid,
Speaker 1: and we're tax and everything's in money monetary terms. There's
Speaker 1: something important about just being who we are. I think
Speaker 1: quit their jobs to have kids and they are well,
Speaker 1: what about the shaming that happens with women who who
Speaker 1: didn't go get a full time job and became mothers.
Speaker 1: The few women who the few women who were were
Speaker 1: afforded that. Who you know, if their husbands making a
Speaker 1: bunch of money and they get to stay home with
Speaker 1: their kids or stay home with their kids, what about
Speaker 1: the shaming? What about the shaming? What about what about
Speaker 1: the shaming of people who are full time mothers? When
Speaker 1: did that become uh, somehow this horrible thing. Who would
Speaker 1: turn their nose up at a mother? What's more important
Speaker 1: motherhood or your day job? But you know, my father
Speaker 1: would never say, because my father would never say that
Speaker 1: his job was more important than his fatherhood. My father
Speaker 1: would have stayed at home every day if we had
Speaker 1: the money, you know, but instead he had to work doubles.
Speaker 1: So you know, so so I want to know who,
Speaker 1: fundamentally at the source made a woman feel is making
Speaker 1: a woman feel guilty for being a mom? I mean,
Speaker 1: what is more important than being a parent in your life?
Speaker 1: I mean, fundamentally speaking, I'm not I'm not a parent,
Speaker 1: but what what what could possibly be a more important
Speaker 1: job than that? And and you do you do hear
Speaker 1: stories about moms saying, well, yeah, they made me feel
Speaker 1: uncomfortable at the dinner table because they asked me what
Speaker 1: I do and I said, I'm I'm the mother of
Speaker 1: these these kids. You know that's it. They say, well,
Speaker 1: what about is that? Like? What are you talking about? Value?
Speaker 1: But society doesn't value you? Go into the courts. I
Speaker 1: had this said that to me. She she took two
Speaker 1: two decades off to raise her kids. She goes in
Speaker 1: her husband doesn't want to pay alimony. California, the best
Speaker 1: state in the Union for marital fairness issues her something
Speaker 1: called a Gavron warning, your duty to become self sufficient
Speaker 1: within six months. And she said, what is what is
Speaker 1: the value court judge of raising these two human beings?
Speaker 1: Do you value this? And they said, well that was
Speaker 1: your choice. Two decades. She gave up her earning potential.
Speaker 1: She wanted to invest in being a mother. The court
Speaker 1: shamed her with this Gavron warning. And so if you
Speaker 1: have to get back in the workforce within six months,
Speaker 1: she's now a Mary Kay representative driving a lift, going
Speaker 1: back for her nursing degree. Brutal because they don't value
Speaker 1: the invisible work. And so if anybody gets anything out
Speaker 1: of this podcast is to say what Brooks said before,
Speaker 1: allow men into their full power in the home. Let's
Speaker 1: invite men into their full power in the home. Because
Speaker 1: I do believe, like your father and like you, there
Speaker 1: is the beauty of being a parent, of being a
Speaker 1: partner is our most important human connection is what makes
Speaker 1: good human beings. When you said hi to someone on
Speaker 1: the subway, maybe that person didn't go out and chop
Speaker 1: someone's head off that day. Human connections matter, or he
Speaker 1: said hi and they said he said hi, I'll do
Speaker 1: it to him, right, Do you save someone else from
Speaker 1: there getting their head chopped off? And so human connections matter.
Speaker 1: It's not about blueberries and glue sticks. It's about being
Speaker 1: the best person we can be looking at each other
Speaker 1: and saying we were seen. And that's actually what bars
Speaker 1: was saying before about his app. It's about we all
Speaker 1: want to be in a community where we're seeing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what it's about. Um, where can because you've given
Speaker 1: so much to our community, where can our community find you,
Speaker 1: get in contact with you, find the book all of that.
Speaker 1: Just follow me in eve Rodsky on Instagram or fair
Speaker 1: play life. So let's go to spell that out for Yes,
Speaker 1: it's at eve Rodsky e V E r O d
Speaker 1: s k y and they can find everything there, all
Speaker 1: the articles I've written, uh, and the book and we'll
Speaker 1: link to everything here on our how Men Think podcast Instagram.
Speaker 1: Thank you, that was one of the most Thank you.
Speaker 1: That was one of the most polarizing debates I think
Speaker 1: we've ever had. So great. Yeah, are you kidding? And
Speaker 1: we'd love to get your thoughts on this. We got
Speaker 1: a new system set up. We've got a voicemail where
Speaker 1: you guys can send us your questions and we'll play
Speaker 1: them on air, will answer them. Our number is one
Speaker 1: eight eight eight four three zero one seven seven seven
Speaker 1: once again one eight eight zero seventeen seventy seven, So
Speaker 1: send us your questions, let leave us a voicemail, will
Speaker 1: answer on air. Thank you guys for listening. We appreciate you.
Speaker 1: Until next time, take care of one another, Love one another,
Speaker 1: love it baby, love one another. Gab and we'll see
Speaker 1: right back here next week for another episode of How
Speaker 1: Men Think