1 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 2 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: name is Joe McCormick and it is Saturday, so we 3 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: are going down into the vault for an older episode 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: of the show. This one originally published on June twenty second, 5 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, and it's part three of our series 6 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: called Dreamfall into the Dark. I hope you enjoy. 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 8 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 3: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 9 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Land and I'm Joe McCormick. 10 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 3: This is the third episode and what I believe is 11 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 3: going to be a four part series about dream mystique, 12 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 3: dream culture. We're going to have one more episode that 13 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,279 Speaker 3: is going to focus on Japanese dream. 14 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: Culture and finally get to that monster that is the 15 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: reason we started looking at this. 16 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, we've been chasing after that monster and ultimately 17 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 3: we will chase it across the sea and discuss its 18 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 3: form and function. In this one, we're going to get 19 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 3: more properly into the main focus of the Dreaming Mind 20 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 3: and the end of the Mean World by Lynn A. Struve, 21 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 3: which we've been referring to in these episodes. This was 22 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 3: published in twenty nineteen by the University of Hawaii Press. Naturally, 23 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 3: we're not going to cover everything in that, but rather 24 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 3: you know, highlight some of the key points, some interesting 25 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 3: bits that stand out, and leave you to explore the 26 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 3: book yourself if you want to go deeper in on it. 27 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 3: But in the previous episodes two episodes, we mostly discussed 28 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 3: other dream cultures from around the world, highlighted lighted by 29 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 3: Stroove as being sort of hot beds of focus on 30 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 3: the potential of dreams to impact our daily lives. 31 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, particularly times in places when a lot of dream 32 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: writing was produced, a lot of literature that that still 33 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: comes down to us, whether that's individual like from journals 34 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: and diaries and letters and stuff, or you know, published 35 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: works that concern dreams and often invest kind of some 36 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: some significance beyond just psychological curiosity in dreams. 37 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, because there's always going to be some sort of 38 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 3: dream culture in play. There's going to be you know, 39 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 3: dreams are a reality among all of us, you know, 40 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 3: I mean, it's just it's a human, universal, human experience. 41 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 3: You know, we're going to have these strange visions, mundane visions, 42 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 3: comforting visions, disturbing visions, or traumatizing visions come to us 43 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 3: in the night. It is the you know, we we 44 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 3: we talk so much, you know, on the show, but 45 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 3: in the culture in general about you know, visions brought 46 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 3: on by things that are less every day, you know that, 47 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 3: be it some sort of a you know, peculiar encounter 48 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 3: or the use of some sort of substance that creates 49 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 3: a vision. But the thing about dreams is the dreams 50 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 3: open up the door to visions pretty much every night, 51 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 3: like it's just with regular frequency, and something is always 52 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 3: going to be made of that in a given culture. 53 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 3: But these are those periods of times where they really 54 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 3: went all in, especially among like the literary, you know, 55 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 3: the upper echelon of the like the theological branch of 56 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 3: a given culture. 57 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: Now, in the introduction to Struve's book about the dream 58 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: arc in the End of the Ming Dynasty in China, 59 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: she does talk about how, basically, like any time and 60 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: place she has examined, there seems to be a trichotomy 61 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: of explanations for dreams. There's always sort of in the 62 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: mix a way of saying, well, that dream is just 63 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: sort of a natural phenomenon. Maybe it's a result of 64 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: you digesting a bit of mustard or cheese. There is 65 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: a way of saying that the dream is given to 66 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: you by a demonic force or bad spiritual entity. And 67 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: there's a way of saying that a dream is given 68 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: to you by a by a heavenly force, or it's 69 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: some kind of inspiration, it's a positive supernatural gift, and 70 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: that kind of does permeate. You can find those three 71 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 1: explanations all around the world at basically all times in places. 72 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, God, devil or potato, and I guess at times 73 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 3: that you know, you may lean more towards one or 74 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 3: the other, though I guess it seems to be the 75 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 3: case that you know, all three are going to be 76 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 3: in play to some degree, because I mean, how all 77 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 3: in can you go on say the devil or evil 78 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 3: spirit understanding of dreams without having to sort of release 79 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 3: the pressure a little bit and saying, you know, not 80 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 3: all of these are the devil, some of these are 81 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 3: just a potato, and you know, maybe some of these 82 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 3: are actually useful as well. Now, one thing I wanted 83 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 3: to touch on here at the start is coming back 84 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 3: to something we discussed towards the end of the last 85 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 3: episode is the idea that when you have a given 86 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 3: culture that really like opens the gates on dreaming. That 87 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 3: that says, in one way or another, dreams matter. Dreams 88 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 3: are important, and we all have access to them. You know, 89 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 3: this can open the floodgate, and this can perhaps require 90 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 3: some individuals to sort of move in and individuals and 91 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 3: positions of power, et cetera, to sort of say, well, 92 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 3: let's let's reconsider that, or let's let's maybe think about 93 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 3: what this particular dream means. And of course the main 94 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 3: candidate here would be anytime dreams are interpreted as being 95 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 3: the will or revelations of a God or God's or 96 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 3: dreams as revelations of the future. 97 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 1: The main context in which this came up was our 98 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: discussion of the role of dreams in early Quakerism, where 99 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: a lot of meetings of the religious Society of Friends 100 00:05:55,760 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: and publications by this fledgling religious group would discuss dreams 101 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: people had as prophetic revelations from God. But of course 102 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 1: that gives any individual person a lot of power and 103 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: authority to say, like, I had a dream. This might 104 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 1: be from God, and the dream could say anything. It 105 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 1: might say something really destabilizing to your to your social group, 106 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: or it might give a kind of really destabilizing political exhortation. 107 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: Maybe we need to do something that could get us 108 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: into trouble with the authorities. So yeah, you had to 109 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: have a kind of dream police, as it were, Like 110 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: leaders of the early Quakers ended up kind of steering 111 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: dream interpretation and selective publication of dreams to rock the 112 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 1: boat less, essentially to to be like, oh, let's not 113 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: let's not do anything too crazy. Now, how about we 114 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: just interpret these dreams as you know, applying to individual 115 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: moral behavior rather than having any kind of radical, broader 116 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: social or political implications. 117 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So there are there are two examples from 118 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 3: Chinese history in Chinese considerations of dream that I want 119 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 3: to share here from her book The Tie into This. 120 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 3: The first is an example that far precedes the Ming dynasty. 121 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 3: Struve shares an account of one Xiao xi Lang, a 122 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 3: disciple of the great polymath Tao hong Jing of the 123 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 3: fifth and sixth centuries bcee. So, hong Jing insisted that 124 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 3: most of his disciples visions. This is the man that 125 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 3: had various visions and would write about these visions were 126 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 3: waking visions. These were visions he's having during the day, 127 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 3: you know, the kind of thing that we might think 128 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 3: of is being brought on by like meditation or something 129 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 3: of that nature. But Zhao's own dream records, it seems, 130 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 3: are just increasingly dream focused if you look at them 131 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 3: in chronological order, until all of his alleged visitations with 132 00:07:55,400 --> 00:08:00,040 Speaker 3: Dallas deities are conducted via dream as opposed to waking 133 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 3: visions of one sort or another, and he ultimately believes 134 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 3: himself summoned to the celestial realm, so he intentionally overdoses 135 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 3: on poison in order to obey those summons. So ultimately 136 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 3: kind of a haunting tale, but one of these where 137 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 3: you can see like this push and pull, one individual 138 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 3: pulled strongly into the dream visions, and this kind of 139 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 3: attempted course correction, either course correction or some attempt to 140 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 3: sort of alter the account a little bit and say, well, 141 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,319 Speaker 3: you know, actually they weren't all dream visions. Most of 142 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 3: them were or are waking visions, and those are ultimately 143 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 3: more important. And this will become essential when we talk 144 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 3: a little bit more about this idea of what dreams 145 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 3: represent and what the waking world represents in sort of 146 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:53,199 Speaker 3: the larger Chinese cosmology. Now, she also shares an interesting 147 00:08:53,559 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 3: situation concerning a prominent Jesuit missionary to China the name 148 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 3: of Guglio Alini who lived fifteen eighty two through sixteen 149 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 3: forty nine, and this individual enacted a strict policy of 150 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 3: rationalistic dream and sleep interpretation among Christian followers in China 151 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 3: at the time. In other words, the idea was no 152 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 3: divine dreams, even for the devout. And one reason for 153 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,959 Speaker 3: this would seem to be that the people of Maritime 154 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 3: of Fujian Province were said to have a strong zeal 155 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 3: for the power of dream, very strong dream culture, and 156 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 3: that this particular missionary had to contend with quote a 157 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 3: virtual cult of sainthood concerning the dream accounts of a 158 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 3: convert to Christianity named zang Shi. It would seem that 159 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 3: Jesuit records of this time insisted that these dreams occurred 160 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 3: during periods of ill health, to further push them aside 161 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 3: into that dismissable realm of dreams as byproduct or residue, 162 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 3: the potato realm, as opposed to the divine realm. So 163 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 3: of course, this is of course, again a Jesuit missionary. 164 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 3: So this is an outsider with an outside faith that 165 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 3: has been introduced into China. It's contending with like a 166 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 3: with a local indigenous dream culture. 167 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: Well right, yeah, so as a Catholic missionary, he would 168 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: want to be presenting a sort of a stable theology 169 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: to people. It's like, this is what comes from the 170 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: Bible and from the Church, and you can't like change 171 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: anything by having a dream and getting a new revelation 172 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: from God. It's all already here for you. 173 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean very obviously, the Catholic Church is kind 174 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 3: of like the poster child of top down religion, top 175 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 3: down theology, and historically they have not reacted well to 176 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 3: new revelations among them, like the lower tiers. Now, to 177 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 3: move on to the Ming Dynasty period, the late Ming 178 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 3: Dynasty period in particular, that's the main focus of the book, 179 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,359 Speaker 3: it's probably necessary to add just a little historical context. 180 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 3: So the Ming Dynasty was an imperial dynasty of China 181 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 3: ruled by the Han people. They had overthrown the Mongol 182 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 3: led Yuan dynasty in thirteen sixty eight and would ultimately 183 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 3: succumb to the Manchu led Qing dynasty in sixteen forty four. 184 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 3: The Qing dynasty would be the last imperial dynasty of China, 185 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 3: and so Struve is dealing mostly with the late Ming Empire, 186 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,599 Speaker 3: this period that she describes as a time of disintegration, 187 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 3: the empires in decline, it's threatened and ultimately overthrown by outsiders. 188 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 3: And then also she's dealing with the immediate period thereafter 189 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 3: the early Qing dynasty, in which you have all of 190 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 3: these people who have the Han people within this dynasty 191 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 3: who have gone through all this change and are dealing 192 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 3: at times with the trauma of that change. And incidentally, 193 00:11:57,880 --> 00:11:59,719 Speaker 3: she also gets we're not going to have time to 194 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 3: get in any of this, but she has a number 195 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 3: of mentions of the writings of pousong Ling, who wrote 196 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 3: the Strange Tales from the Chinese Studio. He's born shortly 197 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 3: after the fall of the Ming dynasty in that period 198 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 3: of transition, So if you're interested in pousong Ling, this 199 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 3: is also a book worth picking up. 200 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: Referenced frequently on this show. 201 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, pousong Ling a lot of weird tales that he 202 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 3: shares concerning everything from ghosts and trolls and goblins to 203 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 3: you know, at times just kind of there's more than 204 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 3: one sort of body story thrown in there as well. Now, 205 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 3: other key factors during this time period, according to struve. 206 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 3: She says, there is a trend toward moral ethical subjectivity 207 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 3: in spiritual exploration. There was a mounting dysfunctionality of the 208 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 3: state system in political culture, which meant that you had 209 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 3: a lot of individuals that would you know, otherwise have 210 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 3: been focusing their energy on advancing themselves and applying themselves 211 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 3: in official state positions, but they're unable to, so they're 212 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 3: left to engage personal projects. They're left to indulge inward gazing, 213 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 3: in this pursuit of dream and fed by all of this, 214 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 3: there is also a general questioning of the rationalism and 215 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 3: emotional control that was part of sort of the dominant 216 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 3: mean philosophy and politics up to that point. And just 217 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 3: in general again, the decline of one dynasty and the 218 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 3: pending emergence of a new dynasty, there's this growing sense 219 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 3: of a loss of control for many, she says, a 220 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 3: sense of uncertainty that leads to an increased focus on 221 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 3: cosmic answers and inward reflections, both of which, as we've 222 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 3: been discussing, are universally sometimes sought out through the world 223 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 3: of dreams, and this is very much part of dream 224 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 3: culture in China of the day as well. Now Strepp 225 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 3: discusses the legacy of Chinese dream interpretation at length, going 226 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 3: back well before this period, of course, to shamanistic traditions 227 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 3: of old, similar to some of what we discussed concerning 228 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 3: the Ottoman dream culture, but she explains that the understanding 229 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 3: of dreaming at its most basic and Chinese tradition was 230 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 3: considered in terms of course of yin and yang, and 231 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 3: in two sort of broad ways of looking at it. So, 232 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 3: in one school of thought, which she calls the Partheid model, 233 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 3: wakefulness is the yang state and sleep or dream is 234 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 3: the yin state. So it's in the yin state that 235 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 3: one's two souls, the terrestrial soul and the aerial soul, 236 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 3: become disconnected, allowing the yen state of the souls to 237 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 3: explore without anchor of the yang. And if these two 238 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 3: souls don't recouple upon waking, well, then you die. And 239 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 3: thus there's this long standing connection between sleep and death 240 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 3: in Chinese thought, I guess I'm assuming, also coupled with 241 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 3: the with the obvious observation that when we sleep it's 242 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 3: kind of like we're dead. Also in dream, it's said 243 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 3: via this model, the drifting soul might encounter quote avatars 244 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 3: of the forces of justice and fate that one would 245 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 3: not normally encounter in the mundane world, but you might 246 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 3: encounter them in dream and therefore you might suffer ill 247 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 3: dreams and nightmares as punishments. 248 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: But basically the idea that when the material like the 249 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: grounded soul and the aerial soul separate during sleep, the 250 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: aerial soul can kind of wander and have encounters with 251 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: other ghosts or ancestors or other beings. 252 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, and also just more broadly, that the waking world 253 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 3: is the yang world and the dream world is the 254 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 3: yen world. But then this other model, which she calls 255 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 3: the phasic model, it takes a different approach to yin 256 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 3: and yang and dreams and wakefulness. In this one, the 257 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 3: idea is that a sleeping individual will cycle in and 258 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 3: out of different phases of yin and yang throughout one's 259 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 3: sleep at night, and this would be in the form 260 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 3: of dreamlessness and dreaming. So in this what goes on 261 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 3: in our sleep mirror mirrors just all the other patterns 262 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 3: in our life, just a pattern of yin and yang 263 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 3: and know and ultimately you want these to be in 264 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 3: balance with each other. This school of thoughts, she writes, 265 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 3: stress natural causes of dreams and nightmares rather than the supernatural, 266 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 3: So not saying that it was just all potato, but 267 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 3: leaned more potato than the other model. 268 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: That's interesting because obviously it mirrors the true fact that 269 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: we don't dream the entire time we're asleep, that there 270 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: are specific phases of sleep during which we dream or 271 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: during which streaming is heightened. 272 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's also interesting concerning some other things that come 273 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 3: up in the book about just thinking about different ways 274 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 3: that a night's sleep may go. And indeed this sort 275 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 3: of idea that some positive that you could have an 276 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 3: entire night's sleep that is completely dream free, that you 277 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 3: can avoid dreams entirely, or you can avoid all sorts 278 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 3: of one type of dream in favor of another. 279 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well, that brings up another way of thinking 280 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: about dreams that is different than I think anything we've 281 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: discussed in this series so far. We've focused a lot 282 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: on people attaching various kinds of supernatural, revelatory or prophetic 283 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: power to the contents of their dreams. But you know, 284 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: another thing that seems to be fairly common in the 285 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 1: world is just having beliefs about ways to have a 286 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: good dream, Like when you want to have a good 287 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: dream as opposed to a bad one. 288 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think this is like a lot of 289 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 3: what's going on, particularly in the Chinese example, is occurring 290 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 3: again among the elites, among the intellectual elites and theological 291 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 3: elites of the day, and it gets, you know, it 292 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 3: gets rather complex. But I think like when you get 293 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 3: down to some of the more like shamanistic roots of 294 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,959 Speaker 3: all of this and sort of like the average individuals 295 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 3: like sort of base understanding of dreams, you kind of 296 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 3: come down to those some of the like the really 297 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 3: key questions. Obviously, one question is is this real or 298 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 3: is it not? And if it's not real, where does 299 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 3: it come from? If it is real, where does it 300 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 3: come from? And what does it mean? That sort of thing. 301 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 3: But then also like coming down if you ask the 302 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 3: average individual just on the street, hey, what do you 303 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 3: think about dreams? Even today? They might be like, I 304 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 3: don't know, you know, dreams or dreams whatever. But if 305 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 3: you ask them what do you think about what is 306 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 3: your opinion on nightmares? Most people are going to say 307 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 3: I don't care for them. I would prefer not to 308 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 3: have them. And so there's I think there's always going 309 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 3: to be that level of the dream culture as well, 310 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,719 Speaker 3: like can we do something about these nightmares? I mean, 311 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 3: this is nice that you have all these thoughts about 312 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 3: like where these are coming from, But I would tell 313 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 3: me how to not have the nightmare. 314 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: Whether Scrooge is being tortured by the actual ghost of 315 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: Jacob Marley or it is just the bit of mustard 316 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: or the crust of bread that is causing it. Either way, 317 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: it is unpleasant. 318 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, this is I'm sure preaching to the 319 00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 3: choir universally among our listeners here. But you know, nightmares suck. 320 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 3: They disrupt your night's sleep, and by disrupting your night's sleep, 321 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 3: you're gonna inevitably disrupt your waking day to follow, not 322 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 3: only like on a physiological level, but also a potentially 323 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 3: on a mental or emotional level. And we have to 324 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 3: bear in mind that like bad dreams and nightmares can 325 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 3: also be intensified via stress and trauma in life. So 326 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 3: you know, it's like this boulder rolling down a hill, 327 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 3: and I think we can all, you know, understand that 328 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 3: that desire to want to stop that boulder or to 329 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 3: diminish it somehow before it slends into us. And that's 330 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 3: without even getting into some of the more extreme examples 331 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 3: of parasomnia, night terrors, and so forth, like just sort 332 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 3: of like normal nightmares can be horrible. They're horrible for us, 333 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 3: and then certainly as parents, you know they're horrible when 334 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 3: you're having to deal with someone, especially a young child, 335 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 3: but also other loved ones when they're experiencing them, because 336 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 3: there's this kind kind of helplessness to it, right, like 337 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:19,120 Speaker 3: you can't protect them in their dreams. So we'll get 338 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 3: back to this general topic of like traditions and customs 339 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 3: regarding the prevention of bad dreams and sort of opening 340 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 3: the door for more positive dreams. But this also brings 341 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,919 Speaker 3: up something that I'm sure a number of you have 342 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 3: been thinking about listening to these episodes, and you've probably 343 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 3: been wondering why it hasn't come up yet, and that 344 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 3: is the topic of so called lucid dreaming. Lucid dreaming is, 345 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 3: of course, you know, the idea that you can take 346 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 3: the wheel of your dreams, that within your dream you 347 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 3: can realize you are dreaming and say, hey, I'm going 348 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 3: to flip the script here, I'm going to do whatever 349 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 3: I want. 350 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 1: Essentially, it's interesting because it often seems to hinge on 351 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: the question of whether you can realize when you are dreaming. 352 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, it's something that my understanding from 353 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 3: having you discussed it on their show in the bast 354 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 3: is that it's something you got to work at. People 355 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 3: do apply themselves to it, and people do report results. 356 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 3: I've never applied myself to it, and therefore the few 357 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 3: times that I do have lucid moments in my dreams 358 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 3: where I realize that I am dreaming, I immediately fall 359 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 3: out of it. So I'll have a dream where I'm like, Hey, 360 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 3: this is a dream, and then I'll be like, what 361 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 3: did I just think? I don't remember, and then I'm 362 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 3: back under the spell of the dream, and this will happen. 363 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 3: The times that it's happened like this, It'll just happen 364 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:42,199 Speaker 3: like several times in a row, and I'm unable to 365 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 3: shake the delusion of the dream. 366 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: I think I've shared this on the show before, but 367 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 1: my experience is every time in a dream I start 368 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: to wonder if I'm dreaming or not, I think, no, 369 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: this is definitely real. It seems to imply I don't know. 370 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: I wonder if that means I'm a specially prone to delusions. 371 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. 372 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's hard for me to like in the dream. 373 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 3: I'm always like, I bring my own like waking sort 374 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,120 Speaker 3: of cautiousness to the dream. So I was thinking earlier 375 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:19,360 Speaker 3: about like substances within dreams, drugs within dreams, for example, 376 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,719 Speaker 3: which I've read some wonderful fictional treatments of this before. 377 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 3: But the times where I've been offered, say, a drug 378 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 3: within a dream, I'm always like, no, thank you, I 379 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 3: don't know what's in that will I will politely decline, 380 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 3: And then afterwards I'm like, well that, why didn't It's 381 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 3: a dream like that, this is the place to try 382 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 3: strange substances the dream world. But no, I don't realize 383 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 3: it's a dream, so I don't give it a go. 384 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: Dream cocaine can't hurt you. 385 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 3: So, as we've discussed on the show before, the term itself, 386 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 3: lucid dreaming originates in nineteen thirteen with Dutch psychiatrist Frederick 387 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 3: van Eaton, but he was hardly the first person to 388 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 3: recognize that the dreamer can become aware that they are 389 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 3: in a dream and then influence the shape of that dream. 390 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 3: That this basic idea had been written about in Europe 391 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 3: for centuries and in ancient times. You have the likes 392 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 3: of Saint Augustine, Galen, Aristotle. They all wrote about it 393 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 3: in Asia of The concept was also understood among ancient 394 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 3: Hindus and early Buddhists, and so this was certainly recognized 395 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 3: in the dream culture of the late Ming period as well. Interestingly, 396 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,959 Speaker 3: Streve only mentions lucid dreaming once in the book, but 397 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 3: it's still notable. In one section, she is discussing Juan 398 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 3: ying Ming, an important Neo Confucian thinker of the Ming dynasty. 399 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 3: He is said to have followed a Taoist practice of 400 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 3: deep meditation that minimized both sleep and dream And I 401 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 3: suppose in this we see a reflection of that idea 402 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 3: that there is a threat posed by the irrational dreams. 403 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 3: You know, this is these are to be avoided because 404 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 3: this is where I do not have like intellectual and 405 00:23:58,480 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 3: emotional control. 406 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: Hmmm. 407 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 3: So I take it to mean he was just maybe 408 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 3: not a big fan of dreams anyway. He wrote very 409 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 3: little about dreams himself, but he was a big proponent 410 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 3: of something known as the lung shi, which Struve describes 411 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 3: as the infant mind, an innate sense of right and 412 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 3: wrong that you can think of this as a kind 413 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 3: of innate conscious. This is, in fact it if you 414 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 3: put it into like translators, this is how it'll be 415 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 3: translated in the modern sense. It's kind of a it's 416 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 3: your conscious. It's you know, this innate sense of right 417 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 3: and wrong, and it's said to be present even when 418 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 3: we are infants. So it's something that is not you 419 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 3: don't learn in books or school. It is something sort 420 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 3: of innate and pure within the human. 421 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: Psyche conscience without the law. 422 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, which and where it gets interesting with concerning dreams 423 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 3: is that young Meing insists that the Langxi is active 424 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 3: all the time in both waking and sleeping, making sure 425 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 3: that any dreams you have are going to be prescient 426 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 3: rather than mere delusions of dream sleep. I guess you 427 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 3: would maybe agree that the reason I'm turning down the 428 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,239 Speaker 3: dream cocaine is because of my lang Gie or some 429 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 3: semblance of my lang Gi, I don't know. But more 430 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 3: importantly to his teachings, specifically, it was meant that the 431 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,360 Speaker 3: core of spiritual truth was not something limited to intellectuals, 432 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 3: but something available to everyone from birth, and therefore, you know, 433 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 3: it had wide popularity and would be the kind of 434 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 3: thing the idea that you know, non intellectuals would also 435 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 3: gravitate towards. But here's where the lucid dreaming comes in. 436 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 3: One of his contemporaries, lu hongs Shin wrote of a 437 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,439 Speaker 3: dream he had as a young boy to demonstrate the 438 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 3: importance of Langxi, and in particular, this account involves his 439 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 3: five year old self channeling the lang Ghi in order 440 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,119 Speaker 3: to overcome the delusions of dream and instead lucid dream 441 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 3: his way out of it. And Struve also says that 442 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 3: this was a way to illustrate the importance of Budeau 443 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 3: Dallas thought even among less radical followers. There's a full 444 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 3: account of the dream in the book, and the dream 445 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 3: itself is pretty simple. It's not you know, it's not crazy. 446 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 3: He dreams himself in a wide, busy street full of 447 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 3: carts and people, and there, I guess the one implied 448 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 3: dream world aspect of it is that the mansions towering 449 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 3: overhead are kind of dizzying, so I'm imagining something more 450 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 3: like Times Square as opposed to something that would actually 451 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 3: be appropriate for the time period. But then he realizes 452 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 3: it's all a dream, and he starts shouting at all 453 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 3: the people, saying something along the lines of hay, dummies, 454 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 3: don't you know this is a dream, and they don't listen. 455 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 3: They just kind of shrug it off and keep doing 456 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 3: their things. So he laughs at them, he claps his hands, 457 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 3: and he wakes up, and then as an adult, he 458 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 3: goes out. You know. In retelling this, he also uses 459 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 3: this to sort of compare it to the waking world 460 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 3: as well, which is of course, is a common motif. 461 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,360 Speaker 1: This reminds me of one of my favorite Twilight Zone episodes, 462 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: when we talked about in a Halloween show we did 463 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,239 Speaker 1: a few years back, where there is a character who 464 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: keeps insisting to everyone around him that he is dreaming 465 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: and they only exist right now because they are in 466 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 1: his dream, and whenever he wakes up, they're going to 467 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: cease to be, so it's in their interest for him 468 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 1: to keep dreaming. And it turns out he's like on 469 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: death row about to be executed for a crime. He's like, 470 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 1: don't execute me, because then you will no longer exist. 471 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that was a good one. Yeah, we discussed 472 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 3: that in one of the anthology of Horror episodes, I believe. 473 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: But Hang Han doesn't make that case to the people 474 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 1: around him. He's just like you don't know you're in 475 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: a dream right now. 476 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 3: To bring things back into a less sort of wider 477 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 3: consideration of dreams. During the ming period, again there's this 478 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 3: idea that waking as yang and dream as yin only 479 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 3: in the waking state do you have like true clarity 480 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 3: and penetration, though with a number of caveats, you know, 481 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 3: we get into this idea, like we say in the 482 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 3: Three Varieties of Dreams, and I saw these discussed elsewhere 483 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 3: in Strew's book with the confusion take on everything, the 484 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 3: idea of true dreams or dreamless dreams, those non delusional 485 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 3: dreams which are said to arise spontaneously versus strange dreams 486 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 3: or nightmares, which I think we can compare to the 487 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 3: you know, the infernal interpretation, and then stirrings which arise 488 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 3: in response to life experiences, which of course is clearly 489 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 3: the potato category. But by the seventeenth century there is 490 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 3: also this idea that in sleep, some part of the 491 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 3: dream is allowed to wander like an unbridled horse, a 492 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 3: horse that is still tame, though, and may report back 493 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 3: to the body with wisdom. Again touching into some these 494 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 3: ideas we've discussed already about half the soul wandering and 495 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 3: having these encounters, opening the possibility for divine visions and 496 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 3: so forth. Struve summarizes that all of this begins with 497 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 3: a general trend towards subjectivity and neo Confucianism, but then 498 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 3: it gains more momentum through Dallist and Buddhist thought and 499 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 3: Ming intellectual circles. These are, of course, the three major teachings. 500 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 3: And then the dream culture permeates the literary and visual 501 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 3: arts of the time period, producing apparently more dream related 502 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 3: works of art and literature in China than any other period. 503 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 3: And everything is then sort of wrapped up in the 504 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 3: vortex of a dynasty at its end, and then ultimately 505 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 3: the aftermath of that end. And she says that while 506 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 3: all cultures have their dream cultures, dreams are not considered 507 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 3: with equal seriousness across all of them, especially among the 508 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 3: educated elite. But one of her core arguments is that 509 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 3: the Late Ming period is the most radical period of 510 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 3: Chinese dream culture, given that one could make a good 511 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 3: case for it being the most radical period of dream 512 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 3: culture in recorded human history. And here's one more interesting tidbit. 513 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 3: Strew argues the quote the total effect of these changes 514 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 3: was to weaken the distinction that people normally drew between 515 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 3: waking and non waking awareness and to make doubts about 516 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 3: parsing reality and unreality emblematic of the age. 517 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: Is this real life? 518 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 3: Yeah? So yeah, just such a fascinating look at this 519 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 3: time period, which again check out the book if you 520 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 3: want to really go go and deep on it. It's 521 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 3: very readable, very interesting stuff. But just the take home, yeah, 522 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 3: is that perhaps arguably like this may be the period 523 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 3: certainly in Chinese tradition, in Chinese history, but maybe even larger, 524 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 3: maybe within human culture or recorded human history entirely, like 525 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 3: this is the period of time where the focus on 526 00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 3: dreams becomes like so pronounced that that you're like weakening 527 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 3: our popular understanding of the day between reality and unreality. 528 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 3: It's it's fascinating to think about it. 529 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: And ultimately, what is the argument Struve makes about why 530 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: the literature and art of this period is so dream focused? 531 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 3: You know, I think it comes down to those converging elements. 532 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 3: You know that we we we touched on earlier. You 533 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 3: know that you have a dynasty at its end, you 534 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 3: have you have the intellectual circle within the intellectual circle, 535 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 3: you have all these individuals who aren't able to apply 536 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 3: themselves to state craft and state function, and then these 537 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 3: various sort of theological and intellectual trends that are converging 538 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 3: as well. So it's, uh, you know, it's you know, 539 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 3: comparable to some of the other examples we've pointed out, 540 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 3: where it's like you have a mix of sort of 541 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 3: things that are going on within within the zeitgeist and 542 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 3: then within the intellectual circle, and then things going on 543 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 3: in the external world that are kind of forcing this 544 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 3: narrowing thought or focusing a thought on dreams and the 545 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 3: power of dreams. 546 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: I was thinking about ways to compare and contrast with 547 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: the features of the Quaker example that we talked about 548 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: in the previous episode, and if this makes any sense 549 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: to you, let me know. I was kind of noticing 550 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: an interesting difference, which is that both seem to be 551 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: very dream focused cultures that arise when there is a 552 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: lot of political and social change. Again, the founding of 553 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 1: the Quakers coming out of the period of the English 554 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: Civil War and the interregnum period, and then everything you 555 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: just discussed about the late Ming example. But one difference 556 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: seems to me that at least the way Struve characterizes 557 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: a lot of the dream obsession of the Late Ming period, 558 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: it seems to be kind of a retreat. It's like 559 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: avenues of earthly material focus might be kind of closed off, 560 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: so there is a retrial tree to looking for significance 561 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: and purpose in the dream world. Whereas for the Quakers, 562 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: it almost seems like the focus on dreams is more 563 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,719 Speaker 1: of an advance mode or an attack mode, rather than 564 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: a retreat. You know. It's like there is intense focus 565 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: on dreams as a way of getting guidance for the 566 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: next step forward for a growing and very exuberant, enthusiastic 567 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: religious group. Yeah. 568 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think a strong case could be made for that. 569 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 3: I mean, I guess in both cases it does seem 570 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 3: like people are turning to dreams, at least in part 571 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 3: for answers and understanding for either self reflection or like 572 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 3: a cosmic understanding of what's going on in the world. 573 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 3: But yeah, there's something about or at least in these writings, 574 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 3: we've looked at the way that the Quaker approach does 575 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 3: feel like dream tonight, act tomorrow, Whereas a lot of 576 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 3: the way it's discussed by Streuve concerning the Late Ming dynasty, 577 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 3: it's like dream tonight and maybe dream the next several 578 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 3: nights less focus on like what is the immediate action, 579 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 3: or so it seems to me. 580 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,439 Speaker 1: Though, to bring up another example we talked about you 581 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 1: in the first episode on this in the series focused 582 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: on like the Romantic period in English literature, like the 583 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: Romantic the British Romantic poets and so forth, which I 584 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: think are largely interpreted in some ways is a reaction 585 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,320 Speaker 1: to the Industrial Revolution and to modernity. Like the literature 586 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 1: of the English language Romantic period is often interpreted as 587 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 1: an attempt to escape the realities of the modern world 588 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: and especially industrialization. 589 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, so dream dream tonight, write poetry tomorrow, or create 590 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 3: visual art tomorrow, and that, of course we see that 591 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 3: reflected in the main example as well, the creation of 592 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,959 Speaker 3: all of this dream literature and also dream visionary arts 593 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 3: as well. Yeah, and I can't help but come back to, 594 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 3: you know, wondering about you know where we are now, 595 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 3: I mean we, as we've discussed, you know, our modern 596 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 3: understanding of dreams is largely potato based, you know, with 597 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 3: some forays into these other worlds, but also today. 598 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,879 Speaker 1: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but just to clarify, if 599 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: you happen to tune in late on this series. We're 600 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 1: using potato as a shorthand just for naturalistic explanations of 601 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: dreams based on a passage and Scrooge. We're not literally 602 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: saying that everybody thinks it's caused by digestive issues, though 603 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: that has been one of the naturalistic explanations people have 604 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 1: used over the years. I think today a lot of 605 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: people would say the contents of dreams are just I 606 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: don't know, kind of obscure psychological causes. It's things you've 607 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: been thinking about and so forth. 608 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,760 Speaker 3: Though I am brought back once again to our beans 609 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 3: episode talking about like the link between beans and I 610 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 3: remember us getting into that a little bit, like perhaps 611 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 3: like beans digestion, beans association with the spirit world and ghosts. 612 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,359 Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, yeah. 613 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 3: But I mean today not only do we have being 614 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 3: still and certainly we still have dreams, but we also 615 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 3: have all of these technological means of throwing ourselves down 616 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 3: the chasm of other worlds, you know, I mean, we 617 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 3: have virtual worlds, we have various you know, video game 618 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,320 Speaker 3: worlds and so forth. So I don't know how we 619 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 3: would factor all of that into it as well. M Yeah, 620 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,359 Speaker 3: like to what extent is the creation and the not 621 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 3: only the creation of, but the yearning for digital virtual 622 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 3: world's a yearning for like a dream world of our 623 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:38,320 Speaker 3: own design, a sort of a lucid or semi lucid creation. 624 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,240 Speaker 1: Sold's a dream realized as a nightmare. 625 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's this like straight up matrix stuff 626 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 3: right here. I guess, like, yeah, but so it's not 627 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,879 Speaker 3: a wholly original thought. But yeah, I can't help but 628 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:52,799 Speaker 3: wonder about it. 629 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,320 Speaker 1: Well, Fortunately, if you are stuck in an Internet bad dream, 630 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 1: you can log off. Always remember that you can. You 631 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 1: can detach from the device. 632 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,879 Speaker 3: That's right. All right, Well, we're going to go ahead 633 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,280 Speaker 3: and close out this episode, but join us Tuesday, I believe, 634 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,840 Speaker 3: for the final episode in this series. In the meantime, 635 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 3: if you want to go back and listen to any 636 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 3: other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you'll find 637 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:15,320 Speaker 3: them in the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast feed 638 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:19,759 Speaker 3: Core episodes published on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Mondays, we 639 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 3: do a listener mail episode where we'll inevitably be discussing 640 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,360 Speaker 3: everybody's dreams some more, as we've done in the past 641 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 3: and we'll continue to do in the future. On Wednesdays, 642 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 3: we do a short form artifact or monster fact episode. 643 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,720 Speaker 3: In fact, the monster then inspired this series was originally 644 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 3: going to be a monster fact episode, but it just 645 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,280 Speaker 3: got too big, and then on Fridays we set aside 646 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 3: most serious concerns to just talk about a weird film 647 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:43,479 Speaker 3: on Weird House. 648 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: SEMA huge thanks to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 649 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,359 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 650 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 651 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 652 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 653 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:06,280 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. 654 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 655 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 2: more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 656 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.