1 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to drillt. We've been on a 2 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: little bit of a break this summer, but we're back 3 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: and we'll be bringing you weekly episodes for the rest 4 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: of the year. Today I have with me Jesse Coleman. 5 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: He's a senior investigator with Documented. They're a watchdog group 6 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: that looks at corporate influence on policy, so, as you 7 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: might imagine, the oil and gas industry shows up on 8 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: their radar quite a bit. This past week, a Documented 9 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: investigation into a totally innocuous sounding group of state treasurers 10 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: turned up a whole lot of information about how Republicans 11 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: and dark money groups are trying to use the power 12 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: of state treasurers to push back against ESG Environmental, Social 13 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: and Governance Guideline. In the finance industry, this is a 14 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,839 Speaker 1: group of policies that govern climate disclosures in the financial 15 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: space and has gone pretty much unchallenged for the past 16 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: decade or so. Banks have been okay with it, Investment 17 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: funds have been okay with it. Oil and gas companies 18 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: have said that they like the idea of climate disclosure. 19 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: But as Jesse found out, all of a sudden a 20 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: year or two ago, that started to shift. There was 21 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: a noticeable shift in tone and a sudden pushback happening. 22 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: The folks that Documented notice this and wanted to look 23 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: into it, and what they found was a really surprising 24 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: strategy that's gone pretty much unnoticed for the past couple 25 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: of years. There was a piece in the New York 26 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: Times about this this past week. Documented has put all 27 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: of the documents related to the investigation on their website, 28 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: and Jesse's here to walk us through all of it. 29 00:01:53,520 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: That's coming up right after this quick break. Tell me 30 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: a little bit about the backstory of this investigation. What 31 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: made you start looking at state treasurers and this particular 32 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: group that wound up being central to this. 33 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure, So you know, we follow the oil and 34 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 2: gas industry very closely. Documented. You know, our role is 35 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 2: to kind of unveil corporate power over society and politics, 36 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 2: and you know, the oil and gas industry is definitely 37 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 2: a big piece of that, right So, you know, over 38 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 2: the last couple of years, we had really noticed that 39 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,239 Speaker 2: this kind of catch all term ESG, which stands for environment, 40 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 2: Social and Governance Reporting, was really becoming a really big 41 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 2: deal for the oil and gas industry. And what ESG 42 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 2: is is you know, you like, large corporations have to 43 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 2: disclose certain things about their impact on the environment and 44 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 2: society to shareholders, and it was becoming, you know, for 45 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 2: the oil and gas industry. We were watching it takeover 46 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 2: agenda of meetings and everybody was talking about it. And 47 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 2: for most of like the end of twenty twenty and 48 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 2: early twenty twenty one, we were like, well, this is 49 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,399 Speaker 2: seems like a way for the oil and gas industry 50 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 2: to access very low cost capital by sort of greenwashing 51 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 2: themselves and saying that they're you know, good on all 52 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 2: of these measures and disclosing certain aspects of their business, 53 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 2: but maybe not changing their business practices very much. Not 54 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 2: to say that, you know, it was all bad. It's 55 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 2: great to have more disclosure, and you know, a more 56 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 2: fulsome sort of disclosure system, which you know is kind 57 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 2: of in the works right now in certain regulatory agencies, 58 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 2: would be a good thing. But at the beginning of 59 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 2: this year we noticed a real shift. Whereas before it 60 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 2: seemed like these climate disclosures were sort of inevitable. You know, 61 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 2: the big oil companies like Chevron and Exxon were you know, 62 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 2: saying we're on board for this. You know, everybody everybody 63 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 2: was saying, you know, we're going to do these climate disclosures, 64 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 2: it's going to happen. Previously at the at the at 65 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 2: the beginning of this year, started to see like a 66 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 2: lot of pushback. We started to see direct sort of 67 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 2: attacks on this idea of climate disclosure, and we started 68 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 2: to see sort of little brush fires pop up in 69 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 2: different states, you know, attacking the idea of disclosing climate 70 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 2: information like this, and we thought, well, you know that's 71 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 2: pretty interesting, that's really interesting. Yeah right, yeah, yeah, So, 72 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 2: you know, it all kind of kicked off, especially with 73 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 2: a bill that became law in Texas, which you know, 74 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 2: it was called kind of colloquially the Fossil Boycott Rule, 75 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 2: which said that you know, the state of Texas will 76 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 2: no longer do business with any company that quote unquote 77 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 2: Boycott's fossil fuels, and that became a law in the state, 78 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 2: and you know, we said, well, that's that's interesting. This 79 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 2: isn't coming from nowhere, you know, So we started kind 80 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 2: of filing records requests around around the states, looking for 81 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 2: initially just communications between you know, the Texas Comptroller, which 82 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: is what they call their treasure and other sort of 83 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 2: of state officials that would be potentially pushing these boycott 84 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 2: bills in different states. And as we got started to 85 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 2: get some of these records back, you know, it wasn't 86 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 2: exactly what we anticipated. We kind of anticipated this group, 87 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 2: the Texas Public Policy Foundation was maybe you know, driving 88 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 2: this in the back seat to a large degree, and 89 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 2: you know, it actually turns out they are really involved. 90 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 2: But there's this other group called the State Financial Officers 91 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 2: Foundation that was acting as this really important central node 92 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 2: of a much wider campaign to fight climate policy in 93 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 2: general that you know, included this web of dark money 94 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 2: groups that did include, like I said, the Texas Public 95 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 2: Policy Foundation, but other major national political players like Heritage, 96 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 2: the American Legislative Exchange Council ALEC, and some of the 97 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 2: you know, kind of the most powerful dark money groups 98 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 2: in the United States. 99 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: Wow, that is so interesting, so so interesting. Okay, So 100 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: that tipped you off like that, This random I mean, 101 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: it's such a perfect, like innocuous sounding group, right. 102 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Yeah, hiding behind their very boring name. 103 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, So what are they and what were they getting 104 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: up to? 105 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 2: So the State Financial Officers Foundation is a nonprofit group. 106 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 2: They kind of build themselves as a group of state 107 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 2: treasurers that are interested in the quote unquote free market, 108 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 2: which is really interesting. That's usually sort of code word 109 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 2: as I'm sure you and many other people know for 110 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 2: you know, Republican like righting politics, and that's kind of 111 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 2: what they had been since they're founding about ten years ago. 112 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 2: But they didn't, you know, they weren't really weighing into 113 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 2: major national issues. Like the things that they were focused 114 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 2: on were really within the realm of financial officers of states, 115 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 2: you know, pension you know, like retirement plans, college savings plans, 116 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 2: that kind of thing. But we see about a year 117 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 2: ago this group of state financial officers foundation, they really 118 00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 2: shift their focus and become completely obsessed with climate measures 119 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 2: and talking about climate change and repeating you know these 120 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 2: like really old lines on climate denial. You know, CO 121 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 2: two isn't bad for you, it's causing a great greeting 122 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 2: of the earth, and all of these efforts to. 123 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: Hit in the wayback machine. 124 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 2: Yes exactly. Yeah, we've heard all this before and kind 125 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 2: of thought some of it had you know, kind of 126 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 2: passed into into messaging that doesn't work anymore. But sure enough, 127 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 2: you know, here it is again at the state level. 128 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: Wow, Wow. So okay, so they had this big shift 129 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: last year starting to talk about climate and ESG all 130 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: the time and whatnot. What did you find about what 131 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: kind of drove that shift? 132 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 2: Well, So, I mean, just just to like one more 133 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 2: thing kind of how they operate. They're really closely tied, 134 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 2: like I said, to the American Legislative Exchange Council, and 135 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 2: they have a lot of similar attributes. One of those 136 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 2: is that they have you know, two or more yearly 137 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 2: meetings where they get together all their Republican treasure and 138 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 2: all of their corporate sponsors and they go to fancy 139 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 2: dinners and they kind of talk about, you know, how 140 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 2: they're going to you know, strategize on whatever the issue 141 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 2: of the day is. Well that you know, about a 142 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 2: year ago, that issue of the day, like I said, 143 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: became opposing climate finance policy kind of in many different ways, 144 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 2: but it really coalesced around attacking policies by large financial 145 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 2: institutions like Black Rock, and moves in the financial sphere 146 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 2: of you know, by like the Securities and Exchange Commission 147 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 2: or the Department of Labor where these agencies are saying 148 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 2: you should disclose climate risks and that and that sort 149 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 2: of thing. So yeah, so they they kind of shifted 150 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 2: from talking about more financial stuff to these really kind 151 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 2: of hard line climate issues, and they invited in like 152 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 2: a key turning point here is when they was when 153 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 2: this other dark money group called Consumers Research became a 154 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 2: top fiscal sponsor of the State Finance Officers Foundation. And 155 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 2: then you see the agenda of these, you know, yearly gatherings. 156 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 2: These meetings shift like almost completely over to how do 157 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 2: we attack black Rock, how do we stop climate finance 158 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,719 Speaker 2: disclosure rules, how do we take on quote unquote wote capitalism. 159 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: It's so funny because I was reading through your through 160 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: the description on the documented website, and as soon as 161 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: I as I saw woke capitalism, I was like, oh god, 162 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:28,559 Speaker 1: I'm sure there's like a Peter Teal strive capital uh 163 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 1: say here. Sure enough. It was like two paragraphs later, 164 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: I was like, there it is, so yeah, tell me 165 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: about this is this is like a thing right in 166 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: the last year or two of these kind of libertarian 167 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: folks being all up in arms about ESG and quote 168 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: unquote woke capitalism. What what's that about? 169 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 2: Well it's a great example of how uh, you know, 170 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 2: these sort of republican dark money groups are really good 171 00:09:55,920 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 2: at creating a like a fake thing to attack and 172 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,959 Speaker 2: really kind of driving it into reality, you know, from 173 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 2: a very niche, very like sort of off the wall 174 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 2: issue that nobody is talking about to now. You know, 175 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 2: you hear Mike Pence talk about it, You hear it's 176 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 2: on Fox News every day like to you know, now 177 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 2: it's really kind of taken taken been taken up by 178 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 2: the zeitgeist. And like I said, really I think you 179 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 2: can trace that back to a large degree to groups 180 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 2: like consumers Research, who you know, they kind of saw 181 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 2: the writing on the wall. They saw that, you know, 182 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 2: climate policy was really stalling in most places, but one 183 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 2: place that it wasn't really stalling and was continuing to 184 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 2: move was in this financial world. And like I said, 185 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 2: you know, the SEC was taking up rules and these 186 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 2: large financial asset managers were saying, we have to take 187 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,439 Speaker 2: climate change into account, you know, in our investments. And 188 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 2: so they kind of said this is quote unquote wote 189 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 2: capitalism and black Rock is a vulte capitalist, which is 190 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 2: kind of ridiculous if you know anything about Blackrock right there, 191 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 2: you know, I mean, WOK doesn't really have a meaning necessarily, 192 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 2: but they're. 193 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: Just capitalism is an oxymoron. That's it's just yeah, it 194 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: just is. 195 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 2: But it allowed them to sort of, in this really 196 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 2: new and interesting way, meld defense of the fossil fuel 197 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 2: industry with the culture war, and it was way more 198 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 2: successful than other attempts like this. And you know, this 199 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 2: group of State Financial Officers Foundation, because they were made 200 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 2: up of treasures, state treasurers who actually have a lot 201 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 2: of power over financial decisions in their states. You know, 202 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 2: they elevated this group, the State Financial Officers Foundation, into 203 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 2: this really key weapon against climate policy. 204 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: That's so interesting because I feel like it kind of 205 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 1: coincides with with a lot of folks in the climate 206 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 1: movement kind of. I mean, a lot of people have 207 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: been very focused on the financial sector for a long time, 208 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: the divestment movement and all of that, right, But I 209 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: feel like there's just in the last year to people 210 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: who had traditionally kind of been like finance and you know, 211 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: it scares me. I have been, you know, have been 212 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: kind of turning towards it too. So it's interesting that 213 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: these guys sort of anticipated more attention in that realm. 214 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: So what are some of the things that they've been 215 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 1: able to accomplish well. 216 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 2: So they've passed laws in five states and are aimed 217 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 2: at passing laws in twenty more states that are based 218 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 2: off of this sort of fossil fuel boycott rule, which 219 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 2: there's different sort of model policies that they're passing around. 220 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 2: The end result is kind of all the same, which 221 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 2: is to either scare asset managers into backing away from 222 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 2: their climate promises or to get rid of the asset 223 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 2: managers that have climate promises. And that's you know, that's 224 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 2: that's been a really sort of big and interesting piece 225 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 2: of this like sort of wide ranging campaign. But they're 226 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 2: also doing, you know a lot of other things. They're 227 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 2: opposing federal nominees to you know, like key positions in 228 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 2: federal government that oversee you know, financial measures. They're sending 229 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 2: comments to rules that are signed by the Treasures. So 230 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 2: they look you know like very legitimate and look very serious, 231 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 2: but yet they're all kind of coordinated behind the scenes 232 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 2: by this other national group, and they're they're also just 233 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 2: kind of, like I said, just figuring out how to 234 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 2: kind of scare the financial industry away from over talk 235 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 2: about climate change. 236 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: That is a big deal because I feel like it's 237 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: just been kind of this innocuous thing in the background 238 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: for like twenty years, you know, and yeah, you're right, 239 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: like for a long long time the oil companies, it 240 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: was more like something that they seem to see as 241 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: a helpful tool for them to relaunch. 242 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 2: Honestly, totally. Yeah. I mean we've heard the oil industry say, 243 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: you know, this is a great way to access low 244 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 2: cost capital because all we have to do is disclose 245 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: X and Y, and then suddenly, you know, we get 246 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 2: cheaper money from it. So you know, it's not and 247 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 2: I think this is another really interesting thing about this, 248 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 2: and you know, you kind of hear ALEX leader Lisa 249 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 2: Nelson talk about this recently. She talked about this recently. 250 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 2: But you know, they did polling on Blackrock and what 251 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 2: they found was that Democrats don't like Blackrock. It's nobody 252 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 2: large corporation in the wall. Yeah, and now Republicans don't 253 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 2: like Blackrock. So they were able to kind of do 254 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 2: this great, uh, you know, sort of pivot to where 255 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 2: they're the you know, they're the people that are opposing 256 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 2: you know, corporate power, and they're the ones that are 257 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 2: doing corporate accountability, which you know, and it isn't really true, 258 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 2: but it does it does kind of scramble their opposition 259 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 2: in a way. Who's who's used to being the people 260 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 2: that stand up for the people against against large corporations, 261 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 2: and now it kind of looks like they are, you know. 262 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: So interesting. Did you do get any sense of like 263 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: what happened that made them go from thinking this is 264 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: a handy tool too, this is a threat. Did you 265 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: get any sense of that from any of these documents 266 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: or just from you know, being immersed in it in general? Yeah? 267 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 2: Sure, I mean you have to look at who's behind 268 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 2: the State Financial Officers Foundation, you know, I mentioned ALEC Heritage. Yeah, 269 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 2: so they've played really key roles in all of this, 270 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 2: and you know, they're dark money groups, so we don't 271 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 2: actually know who's funding them behind the scenes, but we 272 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 2: do know that, you know, these are the places that 273 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 2: a lot of these larger quote unquote culture war messaging 274 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 2: sort of campaigns come from. You know, so I think 275 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 2: large national groups basically saw a political advantage to going 276 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 2: after this, and as they did their thing, as they 277 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 2: did polling, as they did you know, as they did 278 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 2: the various measurements that they do, they kind of saw 279 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: that it was it was being rather successful. So I 280 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 2: think that it was really you know, like I said, 281 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 2: these large national dark money political groups that saw this 282 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 2: as a as a as a powerful tool, and it 283 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 2: kind of filtered down into the state level because of that, 284 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 2: because you know, you have to look at this sort 285 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 2: of incentive structure that these state treasurers have. If they 286 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 2: talk about wote capitalism, suddenly they're going to the big 287 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 2: Heritage Foundation meeting with all of the biggest funders in 288 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 2: the Republican Party in d C. You know, sfof got 289 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 2: a huge award from Heritage Foundation this last year, and 290 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 2: they took a lot of key treasures with them, you know, 291 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 2: to this big meeting where they you know, were feeded 292 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 2: by you know, some of the biggest you know funders around. 293 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 2: So politically, for these state treasurers, it's a great deal 294 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 2: to get attention for doing something like this. They get 295 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 2: to go on Tucker Carlson, you know, so you know, 296 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 2: they have an incentive to do this since it's being 297 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 2: supported by Heritage and now like and others. 298 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: It makes me wonder too if maybe they sort of 299 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: realized or noticed that this was an area that would 300 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: be less I don't know, like less touched by the 301 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 1: whole litigation strategy. You know, Like I know, I've heard 302 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: people talk about, well, if policy fails and litigation is 303 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: getting you know, ultimately gummed up at the Supreme Court, 304 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: we should be leaning on the fed right to like 305 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: embrace certain financial policies. And it makes me wonder if 306 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 1: these groups start like we're like, Okay, what's the one 307 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: place that's not really touched by by our court strategy, 308 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: and it's it's finance and insurance. I wonder if they're 309 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 1: if they're looking at the insurance industry as part of 310 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: this too. When I say they, I mean like Heritage 311 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: and ALEC and all of those groups. 312 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. I would say. You know, 313 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 2: they kind of are very upfront about why the treasures, 314 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 2: why finance? And you know Riley Moore, the treasure of 315 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:54,199 Speaker 2: West Virginia, who's a real leader of all of this, 316 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 2: was actually on a podcast with the with SFOF, the 317 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 2: head of SFOF, and he was talking about why the 318 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 2: state treasures are so perfect as a weapon against climate policy, 319 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 2: and he said, you know, the attorney's generals, they have 320 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 2: to work through the courts. I speak with the taxpayers 321 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 2: money with the stroke of my pen I can change 322 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 2: things and it doesn't have to go through the court system. 323 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 2: And you know, sure enough, the law that Riley Moore 324 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 2: got passed in West and West Virginia this last year, 325 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 2: it gave him the power, even more power than the 326 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 2: treasurer already had to decide who the state's going to 327 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 2: invest with. And you know, then you saw, you know, 328 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 2: just in the last month, Riley Moore kicked you know, 329 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,919 Speaker 2: five large asset managers out of the state, you know, 330 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 2: with that newfound power. So they see the treasurers as 331 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 2: this you know, sort of extra judicial you know, power 332 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 2: center that they can exploit a little bit. And you know, 333 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 2: it obviously fits into a larger you know, right wing 334 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 2: strategy of sort of mobilizing down ballot elected officials. So 335 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 2: you know, it fits into this larger trend. But I 336 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 2: think the treasures they're in a particularly good place to 337 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:03,360 Speaker 2: kind of cause havoc here. 338 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So what impact is having on the financial sector? 339 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 1: Are they do you have any sense of like, you know, 340 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: is JP Morgan like, oh no, maybe we should rethink 341 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: this strategy because we're getting kicked out of West Virginia 342 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: or are they like whatever, this is not a big 343 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: deal to us. 344 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 2: It seems like they don't know how to handle the pressure. 345 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 2: You know. I mean, these giant asset managers, they're so big, 346 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 2: they're so used to being the giant, you know, the 347 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 2: biggest fish in the in the pond. 348 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, like calling the shots, right, Like I mean, usually 349 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: it's like everyone competing for their business, not them having 350 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 1: to worry about who wants to do business with them. 351 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: So yeah, that's interesting. So yeah, sorry I interrupted you, 352 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: but you were saying they're not sure how to handle it. 353 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,479 Speaker 2: No, yeah, no, that's exactly right. Yeah, So I mean 354 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 2: we get I get the feeling that, you know, Blackrock, 355 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 2: they just don't they don't know what to do with 356 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 2: this criticism. You saw them after the Texas law was passed. 357 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 2: You saw them hire lobbyists for the time in Texas. 358 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 2: Who did they hire. They hired oil and gas industry lobbyist. 359 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 2: What did they do. They went around to you know, 360 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 2: key Texas officials and said, you know, we love oil 361 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 2: and gas. Here's all of our oil and gas investments. 362 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 2: We're always going to continue to invest in oil and gas. 363 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 2: You know, you saw them do that in other states 364 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 2: as well, so you know, you do see remarkable change 365 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,880 Speaker 2: in tone. I'd also say, you know, in West Virginia, 366 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 2: you know, we just I just mentioned that Riley Moore 367 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 2: kicked out five or said that, you know, these five 368 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,199 Speaker 2: large asset management companies can no longer do business with 369 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 2: the state. Well, there were six asset management companies that 370 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 2: were under review, right but one one company, US Bank 371 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 2: Court apparently walked back their climate stances enough to continue 372 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 2: to be able to do business with the state, you know, 373 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 2: and and Riley Moore and others, you know, considered this 374 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 2: a huge win obviously because they've forced you know, US 375 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,239 Speaker 2: Bank Corp. To you know, change in some way. And 376 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 2: we don't have all the details on that yet, but 377 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 2: you know, US Bank Corp. Was not put on the 378 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 2: boycott list. So yeah, I mean, I think that there 379 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 2: are definitely changes happening as a response to this campaign, 380 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 2: and I think that's why we'll see this kind of 381 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 2: campaign continue. You know, I don't think that this is 382 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 2: by any means. 383 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: Over And I mean, what kind of impact can this 384 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: have on taxpayers in the state if you know, large 385 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 1: pots of capital are suddenly like not not at play 386 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: in their state. 387 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's kind of you know, this is where 388 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 2: we get to like how this is also bizarre because 389 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 2: you know, there was a big study that just came 390 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 2: out that was looking at the Texas law and looking 391 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 2: at the changes that Texas is making in response to 392 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 2: that law and in response to state investments, and pensioners 393 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 2: in Texas are set to lose like hundreds of millions 394 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 2: of dollars because of this. So it is actually really hurting, 395 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 2: you know, the people that are trusting these publican states 396 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 2: with their pensions and with their investments. 397 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 1: Can they be sued then for that under the like 398 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: what is it ezvere laws where like the people in 399 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: charge of pensions have to be acting, you know, in 400 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: the best interests of returns for the people enrolled in 401 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 1: those pensions. 402 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, that's a great question. But you know, 403 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 2: that's another side of this whole campaign is that they're 404 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 2: actually also mobilizing attorneys generals to say it is illegal, 405 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 2: it is against the fiduciary duty to take into account 406 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 2: these climate disclosure rules. So if you as a pension 407 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 2: fund this happened to Kentucky, if you as a pension fund, 408 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 2: you know, are talking about ESG and other climate disclosure 409 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 2: rules and making decisions off that you are you are 410 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 2: violating your conduciary duty. 411 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: That's so interesting because I feel like that could just 412 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: be easily disproved by objective data on like financial performance, right, 413 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: you know, where you could say, well, actually, this fund 414 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 1: that consider these things outperformed this fund that didn't, you know, 415 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 1: buy x percent or whatever. That's so interesting, that's really 416 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 1: really interesting. 417 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 2: Well, we're just going back to the sort of the 418 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 2: climate like the really straight up climate science denial that 419 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 2: undergirds a lot of this. I mean, I guess, I 420 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 2: guess I just don't know how much reality right they 421 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 2: sent to this, you know what I'm saying. I mean, 422 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 2: And it's also just so blatantly hypocritical because you know, 423 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 2: that's what they're accusing, you know, these large asset management 424 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 2: funds of doing is you know, is hurting the people 425 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 2: that are invested in them by not investing enough in 426 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 2: fossil fuels when you know it's the exact opposite, right, true. 427 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I think it's it's interesting, right because it's like, oh, 428 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: we're going to just change this reality by pretending it's 429 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: not true. I mean, that's kind of across the board 430 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: of thing with these folks. But it's wild to see 431 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: it in the financial space. I think it's like particularly 432 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: strange to it in a space it's not many like 433 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: numbers and objective data. 434 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:04,679 Speaker 2: You know. 435 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: Wow. 436 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I don't know if you feel this way, 437 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 2: but you know, I mean because you've you've done so 438 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 2: much amazing work on climate science denial and sort of 439 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 2: all the contours of that. But you know this this honestly, 440 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,199 Speaker 2: it feels like an older It feels like science denial 441 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 2: from ten years ago or something. You know, it does, 442 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 2: it does. 443 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: It's really weird that it's working so well. I forgot 444 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: to ask you how are treasurers? Are they appointed or 445 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 1: are they elected? 446 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 2: It changes state to state. Most treasures are elected officials. 447 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 2: There most treasures are sort of constitutional constitutional officials where 448 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 2: you know they're elected separately and you know their job 449 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 2: is sort of written into the state's constitution. There are 450 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 2: a couple of states that are appointed, like Georgia's treasurers appointed. 451 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 2: But that's that's more the exceptions in the rule. 452 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,199 Speaker 1: Okay, So is there any for to either from on 453 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: the you know, Republican side, to get more you know, 454 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 1: Republican treasures elected, or on the Democrat side to try 455 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: to take back some of these positions. 456 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 2: Well, that's certainly something that we're watching as the midterms 457 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 2: come up. You know, there's a number of sfo F 458 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 2: treasurers that are up for reelection or you know moving, 459 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 2: you know, trying to get electric position. So you know, 460 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 2: I think that it's going to be a really interesting 461 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 2: space to watch. 462 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: Hot state treasure race. Not a thing we've ever really 463 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: paid attention to. Now we need to Wow wow, Yeah, 464 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: so interesting, awesome. Is there any kind of aspect of 465 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: this we didn't talk about that you think is important 466 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: to draw people's attention to. 467 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think there's a couple of interesting things. One, 468 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 2: you know, you mentioned Strive asset Management and the back 469 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 2: Ramaswami earlier, and we didn't really get a chance to 470 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 2: talk about that. But it's a really kind of fascinating 471 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 2: subtext all of this is that there are these you know, 472 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 2: people that are really important in this greater campaign against 473 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 2: climate disclosure. You know, so there's sort of the big 474 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 2: talking heads of the campaign, but they also have for 475 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 2: profit entities that are set to profit from this campaign 476 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 2: to drive money away from Blackrock. In the case of 477 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 2: Vivek Ramaswami, you know, he set up this group called 478 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 2: Strive Asset Management, which is the unwoke asset manager manager. 479 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 2: So so while Vivek has spent the last two years, 480 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,479 Speaker 2: you know, helping orchestrate this campaign to drive West Virginia 481 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 2: and other states to divest from Blackrock, he also set 482 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 2: up a company that's waiting there with open arms to 483 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 2: catch the money that he's shaking out of the tree. 484 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: Didn't like a lot of the founding capital for Strive 485 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 1: come from Peter Thiel. 486 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 2: Yes, right, yeah, roads back to Peterfield. Yes, no, you 487 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 2: know he did. And he's also hired a bunch of 488 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 2: of the you know, the people that have really undergirded 489 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 2: this anti climate campaign for a long time. You know, 490 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 2: he's hired people from these other dark money groups that 491 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,239 Speaker 2: are really well connected in this sort of network, so 492 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 2: that you know, the circle is complete between the nonprofit 493 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 2: political organizations that are campaigning to push black Rock out 494 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 2: of these states and the for profit side that's sitting 495 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 2: there waiting for the money. You know, they're they're literally 496 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 2: the same people. And I feel like with these sort 497 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 2: of you know, quote unquote culture war issues, you don't 498 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,679 Speaker 2: see the profit motive that clearly all the time so 499 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 2: that's another really interesting piece about this. And then nonprofit motive. 500 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,199 Speaker 2: I think the other thing to talk about would be, 501 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 2: you know, the fossil fuel industries precipason in this right. 502 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 2: There's been other efforts obviously to kind of mobilize you know, 503 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 2: sort of the culture warriors to the defense of the 504 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,640 Speaker 2: fossil fuel industry. I don't think it's ever been as 505 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 2: successful as it is now. But you know, we in 506 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 2: our research, we saw the American Patrolling Institute, the largest 507 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 2: you know, fossil fuel lobbyists in the country, having meetings 508 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 2: with sfof you know, like helping support their messaging, you know, 509 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 2: giving these treasures pats on the back for the good 510 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,360 Speaker 2: work that they're doing. And you know that's another instance 511 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 2: of this you know, obvious profit motive undergirding this campaign 512 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 2: that you know is about you know, opposing China and 513 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 2: communism and capitalism and stuff. 514 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: The China thing is such an old talking point too. 515 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: It's just like, yeah, yeah, is there any sense given 516 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,640 Speaker 1: that this Riley More guy is is West Virginia's state treasure? 517 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: Is there any sense that this any of this stuff 518 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: has had an impact on Joe Mansion's kind of persistent 519 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: obstructionism on climate policy. 520 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, you know, West Virginia, 521 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 2: the political world there is actually like it's kind of small, 522 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 2: you know, so you know, I mean we see people 523 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 2: that are have been close the aligned with Joe Manscheen 524 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 2: for a long time that have become lobbyists that are 525 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 2: sort of involved in this effort. You know, we don't know, 526 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 2: you know, we obviously don't know what Joe Manchen thinks 527 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 2: about this or what Riley Moore, you know, how Riley 528 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 2: Moore wants to use you know, Joe Manchen if he 529 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 2: does to help accomplish this campaign. But there's you know, 530 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 2: I mean there is, there's overlapping personnel there. But yeah, 531 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 2: we just don't have a ton of information on that. 532 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, awesome. All right, Well I appreciate you walking 533 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: me through it and also just doing all this work 534 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: in general. Will link to the investigation in the show 535 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: notes so people can go check that out. It's so 536 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: interesting and it's just like this totally new area that 537 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: I don't think anyone has been paying attention to. So 538 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: so yeah, appreciate you drawing folks attention to it. 539 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, thank you very much. Yeah, it's a pleasure 540 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 2: to talk to you. 541 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: Drilled is an original critical frequency production, mixing, mastering, and 542 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: original music by Peter Duff. The show is reported and 543 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: written by me Amy Westervelt. Our First Amendment attorney is 544 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: James Wheaton of the First Amendment Project. Our artwork is 545 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: done by Matthew Fleming. You can find us online at 546 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: Drilled podcast dot com, where we post various articles related 547 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: to the podcast, as well as transcripts of episodes. You 548 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: can also follow us on Twitter at we are Drilled 549 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: or me at Amy Westervelt. Thanks for listening and we'll 550 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: see you next week.