1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Live Wire is a production of iHeart Podcasts and Modulator Media. 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: Previously on Live Wire the Loud Life and Shocking Murder 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:12,040 Speaker 1: of Alan burd There. 4 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 2: Could be a clue to who the murderer is in 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 2: the recent threats and the records that we have at 6 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 2: station and the police might have, but then again there 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 2: may not be. Alan was constantly joking about the threats 8 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 2: that were made on his life. I don't really know 9 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 2: how seriously he took them. Maybe he did, but he 10 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 2: never appeared to on the surface. 11 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 3: And there was a tremendous amount of public pressure and 12 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 3: pressure among us in law enforcement to find the answers 13 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 3: and to bring these people to justice. 14 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 4: Well, I think I heard about the crime on the news, actually, 15 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 4: and then I realized that an armored car robbery is 16 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 4: most likely to be a federal crime, and so I 17 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 4: would have some role in that, although at that time 18 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 4: I had no idea who had committed. That crime was 19 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 4: a very brazen one. They held up a sign get 20 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:09,119 Speaker 4: out or die, and they were blocking the traffic. Most 21 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 4: of the people who were driving on that road thought 22 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 4: it was part of some Hollywood movie, and so it 23 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 4: was a rather spectacular crime. We started working on the 24 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 4: case slowly and systematically learning more and more about this 25 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 4: group known as the Order, which I had never heard 26 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 4: of before this crime. I hadn't even heard actually of 27 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 4: the murder of Alan Berg. It was a complete shock 28 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 4: to learn that there was a group like that who 29 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 4: were dedicated to a white only state in part of 30 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 4: the United States and were committing these serious crimes. I 31 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 4: had never even imagined. 32 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 5: That the group consisted of something over twenty individuals at 33 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 5: that particular time, all of them were led by a 34 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 5: man named Robert pat who lived in Mede Lane Falls. 35 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 6: Which is. 36 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 5: Somewhat northwest of where I was located in Quarterlane. And 37 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 5: I began to identify all the memories associated with that group, 38 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 5: and I and began to identify crimes that. 39 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 6: I felt were. 40 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 5: Associated or were crimes that were actually conducted by that group, 41 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 5: bank robbery, counterfeiting, armored car robberies, and then some acts 42 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 5: of viols that were not income producing, like bombing of 43 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,239 Speaker 5: a synagogue and things such as that. 44 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: What it started out as a shocking murder investigation with 45 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: numerous potential suspects, eventually ended with investigators zeroing in on 46 00:02:55,639 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: a white supremacist organization responsible for a variety of crimes, 47 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: all committed with a single endgame in mind, eventually overthrowing 48 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: the United States government in order to turn the country 49 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: into a white ethno state. Through the collaboration between local 50 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: and federal officials, the group known as the Order was 51 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: meticulously profiled along with their many crimes, including Alan Burg's murder. 52 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: But when it came to handing down indictments for all 53 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: the individuals involved, things got way more complicated than a 54 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: single murder charge. Here is David Heckenbach, who at the 55 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: time worked for the Denver District Attorney's office. 56 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 3: As the investigation continued, yet it became clear that this 57 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 3: white supremacist group, who I think they called themselves the 58 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 3: Area Nations the Order, were involved. The FEDS took a 59 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 3: very would have to call it a primary role in 60 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 3: investigating the Areyan Nations as a whole, because they were 61 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 3: putting together a rico prosecution based out of Seattle. 62 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 1: In a short period of time, investigators had managed to 63 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: uncover every element of the Burg assassination, including the crucial 64 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: discovery of the murder weapon. 65 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 4: They found a murder weapon in one of the homes 66 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 4: of Gary Yarborough, who is one of the Order defendants 67 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 4: one of the people suspected in the armored car robbery, 68 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 4: and so the Bird case became part of our overall effort. 69 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 7: Agents last October raided his home in Sandpoint, Idaho. It 70 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 7: was in that raid that they recovered a submachine gun 71 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 7: like this, a MAC ten, capable of firing one thousand 72 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 7: rounds per minute. The ammunition for the MAC ten is 73 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 7: forty five caliber slugs, the same type bullets that killed 74 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 7: al Namver. 75 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 8: Police Department received from the FBI test bullets from that 76 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 8: MAC ten recovered at Standpoint, Idaho and conducted ballistic comparisons 77 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 8: with the bullets that we had received from the Allenberg slane. 78 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 8: The test indictadas of the recovered MAC ten was, in 79 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 8: fact the weapon used to kill mister Berg. 80 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: Yarbro was just one of a number of individuals identified 81 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: for their role in Allenberg's murder, as well as numerous 82 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: other crimes ranging from armed robbery to counterfeiting, But this 83 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: investigation ultimately came down to tracking down and indicting the 84 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: group's leader, Robert Matthews, an avid anti Semite and white 85 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: supremacist who had formed the Order in the Pacific Northwest 86 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty three, but taking Matthews into custody wouldn't 87 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: be so easy. Here is FBI agent Wayne Mannis, who 88 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: by this point had spent some time profiling and tracking 89 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: down Matthews. 90 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 6: There were several that. 91 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:05,239 Speaker 5: Drawn to Bob Matthews, whom we had just previously encounter 92 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 5: in an hotel. 93 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 9: In Oregon and had engaged in a gunbattle or one 94 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 9: the FBI as was shot and Bob Matthews was shot 95 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 9: in the hands, and he had escaped. 96 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 6: And had taken refuge in a shabbin. 97 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 5: And right along the shoreline at boat on the ocean 98 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 5: at would Be Island. 99 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: I'm filmmaker and journalist Talponschewski, and this is episode eight 100 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:47,919 Speaker 1: stand off at Wildbe Island, the largest island in Washington State. 101 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: Would Be Island is located about thirty miles north of Seattle. 102 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: Other than a naval air station, it's almost entirely rural 103 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: and home to a number of state and federal parks. 104 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 1: In other words, not a bad place for the leader 105 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: of an at large criminal organization to hide out from 106 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 1: federal agents. 107 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 5: We moved in to make an arrest on him, and 108 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 5: he opened fire. 109 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 6: On us at the house where he was. 110 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 5: Fighting out. He was the only one left in the 111 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 5: in the house at that time. 112 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 6: And then. 113 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 5: Eventually the the encounter led into the night, and there 114 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 5: was we still were trying to get him to surrender. 115 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 6: We brought in two helicopters and set him almost on 116 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 6: top of the house. 117 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 10: And just in in an act of trying to create 118 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 10: enough terror that he would inside him that he would 119 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 10: be maybe change his mind and surrender, But instead he 120 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 10: opened fire on the helicopters, were them off, and then 121 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 10: it gad open fire on those of us that were 122 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 10: engaging him from outside the house, and. 123 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 6: Rather lengthy firefight took place. 124 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 5: At that time I was engaged with two other agents 125 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 5: directly in front of him at. 126 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 6: The rear of the house, where he was fired upon 127 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 6: me and the others. 128 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 5: Then he fired on a team off to the west 129 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 5: and a team off to the east, and he was 130 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 5: very well alarmed. 131 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 6: He had a lot of weapons. 132 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 5: And after remember this started at about three o'clock in 133 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 5: the afternoon during the day, and now we're laid up 134 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,559 Speaker 5: into the night and this firefight is still going on. 135 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 6: In the course of that time, we were. 136 00:08:55,240 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 5: Worried that Bob Matthews might escape out amongst us because 137 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 5: it was. 138 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 6: Very dark and the lights that. 139 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 5: We could apply only lit up the exterior of the house, 140 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 5: but not all that well in all portions of the 141 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:19,559 Speaker 5: of the surrounding property around the house. A flarees fired 142 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 5: inside the house. 143 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 6: On the ground level. 144 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 5: Matthews was upstairs and his war room was upstairs, and 145 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 5: the the cabin caught fire. And during the course of 146 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 5: the cabin burning and the fire becoming larger and larger, 147 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 5: Matthews continued to fire with his machine gun extensively until 148 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 5: the fire eventually reached the youngstairs level, and he continued 149 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 5: to fire, and then the firing stopped, and then the 150 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 5: many rounds of ammunition he had there I recalled them 151 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 5: starting to cook off from the blaze. 152 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 6: I knew that the entire building. 153 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 5: Was going to be consumed at that point, and it was. 154 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 5: And so the next morning the only thing that was 155 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 5: left was the foundation and Bob Matthews lying on the ground, 156 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:36,599 Speaker 5: completely consumed by fire. In the morning, we found Matthews 157 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 5: was dead inside the house, and that concluded our engagement 158 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 5: with Bob Matthews. 159 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,959 Speaker 1: Following this lengthy firefight with the man he had been 160 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 1: tracking for weeks, Manus was overcome with a variety of 161 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: mixed emotions. After all, he had spent countless hours profiling Matthews, 162 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: even coming to admire the incredible power he had built 163 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: and wilded through the order. But he had been looking 164 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: forward to cuffing Manas and bringing him to justice. Instead, 165 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: he was forced to settle for a brief encounter with 166 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: Matthew's charred corpse. 167 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 6: He believed the way he was doing. 168 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 5: Was the right thing to do, even though it was 169 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 5: very much wrong. Once he had taken other people's lives, 170 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 5: and once he had put so many people in harms away, 171 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 5: and I had committed so many crimes. 172 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 6: But I knew in his mind he. 173 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 5: Regarded himself as a patriot, and. 174 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 6: I knew that his life was over. 175 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 5: And I thought badly that all this commitment had not 176 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 5: been used. 177 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 10: In a more. 178 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 6: Let me say, in a more. 179 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 5: Constructive way, and it hadn't been so destructive, and it 180 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 5: had been used in the manner in which it had 181 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 5: been used. I was glad that we wouldn't have to 182 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,959 Speaker 5: face his machine gun fire anymore, and that we wouldn't 183 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 5: have him leading an organization trying to kill FBI agents 184 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 5: and other law enforcement officers in the course of their activities, 185 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 5: But it's so badly for the losses of the life 186 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 5: and knowing how dedicated how community was. 187 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 4: When Robert Matthews was finally encountered and ultimately died and 188 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 4: would Be Island, that was pretty much the kickoff. 189 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 8: Of our prosecution. 190 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: That's US attorney Peter Robinson, And with Matthews dead and 191 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 1: a series of high profile indictments officially underway, he was 192 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: about to be very busy by. 193 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,239 Speaker 4: That time that they accumulated a huge amount of information 194 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 4: about the group and its activities and its members. So 195 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 4: by the time we had that standoff and would Be Island, 196 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 4: they had accumulated most of the information that we would 197 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 4: need for our indictment. I mean most of all. You're 198 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:22,319 Speaker 4: sad to hear that another human being has died, regardless 199 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 4: of what crimes he's committed, and I felt that way. 200 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 4: But also I felt like he was the main defendant 201 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 4: in our case, and so it would be a little 202 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 4: bit diminished without him in the courtroom. And I would 203 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 4: actually would have liked to have met him and seen 204 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 4: what he was like and understood how he could lead 205 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 4: those people to do all those things. So there was 206 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 4: that kind of disappointment. I also felt like he might 207 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 4: become a martyr, and I thought that was unfortunate too. 208 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 5: You have to understand that whether you agree when the 209 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 5: group the owner or not, out of regard to themselves 210 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 5: as a very patriotic organization that was interested in the 211 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 5: survival of the America it terms as to how America 212 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 5: was initially uh constituted, in terms of their belief that 213 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 5: the country should be more closely aware as to what 214 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 5: our founding fathers wanted this country to be, and they 215 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 5: felt that the country was. 216 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 6: Losing its way. 217 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 5: So when they killed ellen Berg, they did that with 218 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 5: the belief and understanding that he was one of the 219 00:14:55,680 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 5: individuals that was prominently passing propaganda thousands of people that 220 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 5: was in conflict of what they believed was what Oberica 221 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 5: should stand for. 222 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 6: So they've recorded themselves as. 223 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 5: Patriots, is what I'm I guess I'm really trying to say. 224 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 5: And they felt that they were doing a patriotic thing 225 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 5: when they assassinated him. 226 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: From that point on, federal authorities began making multiple arrests. 227 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: Here's Lori Cantillo, who reported on Berg's murder for Denver 228 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: radio station KOA. 229 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 11: Yes, I got a call. I believe it was right 230 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 11: after I went to sleep early because I was working 231 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 11: the early shift. But I got a call from the 232 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 11: newsroom saying they've made an arrest in the death of 233 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 11: Alan Berg, and we need you to get on a 234 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 11: red eye flight and head to Atlanta. The suspect was 235 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 11: Bruce Pearce, and I recall jumping on a plane, sleeping 236 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 11: through the night, landing in Atlanta, and being present for 237 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 11: a morning arraignment. I knew Allan I was his friend, 238 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 11: but I'm also a journalist, and I need to put 239 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 11: my personal feelings for Alan aside and cover this as 240 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 11: a professional. But of course, when I would do interviews 241 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 11: with people at KOWA, I would talk about how I 242 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 11: felt and how the suspect appeared and so forth. It's 243 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 11: virtually impossible to totally separate your feelings in that situation. 244 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 11: But again, was able to stay busy and file reports 245 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 11: and try to remain as impartial as possible. 246 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,479 Speaker 12: Pierce has been in hiding since May, when he disappeared 247 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 12: from Yakima, Washington, after pleading guilty to passing a phony bill. 248 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 12: He also is connected to several armored cars in the Northwest. 249 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 12: I talked with an FBI agent in kallispell Montana, who 250 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 12: says Pierce is like a chameleon, I think. 251 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:08,439 Speaker 2: Is extremely dangerous. 252 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 13: Anyone who walks around with three guns on him as 253 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 13: a fragmentation hand grenade. Knight would listened dynamite is a 254 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 13: very dangerous person who also is healed the weapons over 255 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 13: there and all the equipment available, I would call him 256 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 13: a dangerous person. 257 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 6: When Bruce Gerald Peers opened fire on Alan Berg. 258 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 5: As he stepped out of his car at his residence 259 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 5: one night in June nineteen eighty four, he unleashed. 260 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 6: Firepower on him in the form of a fully. 261 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 5: Automatic machine gun type weapon and the gun jam on 262 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 5: the fourteenth round. So we fired thirteen rounds and then 263 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 5: the gun jam on the fourteenth round, and he. 264 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 6: Primarily Matthews profoundly stated that. 265 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 5: That is a sign from God that we're on the 266 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 5: right path and we will be successful because the thirteen 267 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 5: rounds had fired stands for the thirteen original states, and 268 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 5: this is like in an ordained message to us that 269 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 5: we're on. 270 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 6: The right path. 271 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: As it turned out, federal officials moved in on the 272 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: order at the perfect time. Remember, the investigation into the 273 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: criminal organization took off following the holdup of a Brins 274 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: armored car in Yukaya, California. Brinks employees had actually been 275 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: involved in the holdup, providing crucial information to Order members, 276 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: and it turns out the collaboration with those Brinks employees 277 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: may not have ended there had officials not moved in. 278 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 5: And at the time that we actually moved in and 279 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 5: took down the group, they were within two weeks of 280 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 5: conducting a robbery on Brink's headquarters in San Francisco. 281 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 6: The two individuals that. 282 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 5: Had joined and affiliated with Bob matthews group. 283 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 6: The Order had provided Matthews with the all the. 284 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 5: Interior schematics, the information they would need as to exactly 285 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 5: when to make their assault on the headquarters, when the 286 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 5: when the money would be the most money would be 287 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 5: available in stock there, how to penetrate and the choir, 288 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 5: their access to the vault, and pretty much what to 289 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 5: expect in terms of resistance. Two weeks before they were 290 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 5: planning to do the brinch headquarters robbery, we. 291 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 6: Made the decision to take them down, not knowing at 292 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 6: the time. 293 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 5: That that was their plan, only finding out subsequently. 294 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 6: I can't even imagine. 295 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 5: How that would have. 296 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 6: How that would have occurred about with a great. 297 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 8: Deal of. 298 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 6: Of a loss of life. 299 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: Following his fiery death in the violent standoff last several hours, 300 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: Bob Matthews still managed to contribute a final piece of 301 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: evidence indicating how far the Order was willing to go 302 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: in its mission, and. 303 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 6: We moved in on him and with the island. 304 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 5: They had sent a letter to Congress while he was there, 305 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 5: threatening the members of Congress, stating to members of Congress 306 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 5: that they wanted five northwestern states turned over to them. 307 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 5: And they were bold enough to say to the members 308 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 5: of Congress that they didn't care if a congress person 309 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 5: swung to the left or to the right, they would 310 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:50,199 Speaker 5: simply swing them by the neck until dead. So they 311 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 5: were boldly threatening Congress. And this was just days before 312 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 5: we moved in on them. 313 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 1: With the exception of Robert Matthews, every indicted member of 314 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: the Order was captured without gunfire. Several members were tried 315 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 1: under RICO statutes. For those of you who may be 316 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 1: unfamiliar with the term, RICO refers to the Racketeer, Influenced 317 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: and Corrupt Organizations Act, basically acts pertaining to an ongoing 318 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: criminal organization. In a separate trial, four members of the 319 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 1: Order were also indicted for violating Allenberg's civil rights, but 320 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: in an excruciating decision by the Denver District Attorney's office, 321 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: there were no local charges in the murder of alan Berg. 322 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: To this day, no one has been formally charged with 323 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: his murder. 324 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 11: The district attorney norm Early declined to file murder charges. 325 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 11: That was very controversial, and people who liked him, he 326 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 11: was very popular, likable kind of a guy, were very 327 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 11: angry and upset about that decision. Felt that it was 328 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 11: a bit cowardly and it was up to then the 329 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:07,880 Speaker 11: federal government to come after the perpetrators for racketeering charges, 330 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 11: which wasn't nearly as satisfying as filing the murder charges. 331 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 11: So some people would say that it was very political, 332 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 11: that there was an election looming, and that he just 333 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 11: didn't want to jeopardize his political future by pressing charges 334 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:27,640 Speaker 11: and not being able to win that case. 335 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 1: This wasn't as simple as a district attorney willingly overlooking 336 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,120 Speaker 1: a hate crime. After all, norm Early was Denver's first 337 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: black DA and was considered a pioneer of crime victims' rights. 338 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 1: But when it came to choosing not to file charges 339 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: in Allenberg's murder, there were other elements at play here 340 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 1: Once again is David Heckenbach. 341 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 3: The elected DA at that time was a man named 342 00:23:55,359 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 3: Norm Early, Dorman Strickland Early. He was as elected DA. 343 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:03,199 Speaker 6: He was my. 344 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 3: Boss, if you will. It was ultimately his decision as 345 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 3: to what, if anything in our office would do in 346 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 3: terms of prosecuting mister in prosecuting Ellenberg's killers, and so 347 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 3: he had he asked me to be involved in every 348 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 3: aspect of the Denver police investigation. 349 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 5: That was. 350 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 3: That occurred obviously, and then to the extent that the 351 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 3: FEDS would share information, to participate in that process of 352 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 3: sharing and exchanging information during the investigation between agencies between 353 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 3: the Denver Police Department, our office, the DA's office, and 354 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 3: the FBI and the US Attorney's office up in Seattle. 355 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 3: And then ultimately my job would have been, had it 356 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 3: been had Norm decided to proceed with prosecuting those killers 357 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 3: after the Rico verdict was rendered, my job would have 358 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 3: been to have assembled the evidence and presented the case 359 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 3: for prosecution first degree murder here in Denver. I think 360 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 3: the best way to describe it was a that it 361 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 3: was a committee decision, with a committee comprised of Normally, 362 00:25:53,000 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 3: the elected district Attorney, myself, the then Chief of Police 363 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 3: Peace in Denver, his division chief in charge of investigations, 364 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 3: the homicide detectives. But ultimately it was Norm Early's decision 365 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 3: as to whether or not we should proceed with a prosecution. 366 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 3: And the issue wasn't so much whether or not these 367 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 3: people deserved to be prosecuted by the local authorities, because 368 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 3: at that time Colorado did have a death penalty provision 369 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,439 Speaker 3: that had been enacted by the legislature. The FEDS at 370 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 3: that time did not. So one of the issues was 371 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:55,439 Speaker 3: is that Norm had to decide was given the cost 372 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 3: of what it would take for security, for evidence gathering, 373 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 3: even transportation between of the defendants to and from the 374 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 3: Denver courthouse, security for the personnel involved, and given that 375 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 3: the rather substantial life sentences that were handed out after 376 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 3: the Rico trial resulted in a conviction, Norm had to 377 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 3: weigh It was a difficult decision for him, and he 378 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 3: struggled with it very much. So it was not a 379 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 3: decision that Norm took lightly at all. It was a 380 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 3: very very weighty decision. And at that point of the 381 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 3: decision making process, there were also leaders of the Jewish 382 00:27:55,359 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 3: community that were involved in all of these discussions, and 383 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 3: my boss and dear friend Norm early ultimately decided that 384 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 3: we were not going to proceed with the local prosecution 385 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 3: because all of the bad guys had been convicted and 386 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:29,719 Speaker 3: were locked away basically for the rest of their lives 387 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 3: in the Department of Prisons for the FEDS. And he 388 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 3: asked me to join him at a lunch meeting with 389 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 3: the adl Antidefamation League leaders and also some other leaders 390 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 3: from the Jewish community at the Hebrew Educational Alliance here 391 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 3: in Denver. I dutifully agreed to go with Norm, and 392 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 3: then Norm canceled and I had to deliver the news 393 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 3: by myself to that group that the decision was made 394 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 3: that we were not going to prosecute locally the murder 395 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 3: of Ellenburgh. I was pretty nervous frankly going into it, 396 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 3: because you know, first of all, it wasn't my decision. 397 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 3: It was Norm's decision, and it was his to make, 398 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 3: and I respected that man very very much, and I 399 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 3: understood how difficult it was for him. And to this day, 400 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 3: I do not know whether Norm just wanted me to 401 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 3: take the heat or if he really was unable to 402 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 3: attend that meeting, it was obviously important. 403 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: Four decades later, that difficult moment when Heckenbuck shared this 404 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: heartbreaking news with the local community in Denver still sticks 405 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: out as a seminal moment in his legal career. 406 00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 3: It's something I will remember for the rest of my life. 407 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 3: That it was well received. I can't say that they 408 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 3: were happy about the decision, but they were very understanding 409 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 3: about it, and it wasn't delivered as a like it 410 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 3: or lumpet. It was delivered in a dialogue form and 411 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 3: with explanations to the very best of my ability, and 412 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 3: with whatever my understanding was of Norm's position, the city council's, 413 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 3: the mayor's, all of the factors that went into Norm's 414 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 3: very very difficult decision were shared at that meeting. It 415 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 3: meant a lot to me that Norm trusted me to 416 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 3: do it, and that the reception I got was anything 417 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 3: but angry. 418 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 6: It was not. It was. 419 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 3: A very positive experience in my life. The issue really 420 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 3: wasn't so much whether or not these guys were the 421 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 3: right guys. We knew they were. The issue was is 422 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 3: it worth devoting those kinds of resources when the defendants, 423 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 3: the criminals, the murderers, were already locked up for the 424 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 3: rest of their lives. What more was there to gain 425 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 3: and at what cost in terms of resources? And what 426 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 3: would that cost mean in terms of all the other 427 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 3: terrible things that can happen in a big city. 428 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 1: With that difficult decision made by the denver DIA's office, 429 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 1: the trial of the Order was set to take place 430 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: in a Seattle courthouse in September of nineteen eighty five, 431 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: more than a year after Allenberg's murder, and with Robert 432 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: Matthews no longer alive and able to face justice. The 433 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: prosecution of the Order members who had been indicted would 434 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: be long and complicated. Security would be incredibly tight in 435 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: the courtroom, and there would be a mob of national 436 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: media covering every detail of the trial. All that in 437 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: the next episode of live Wire, The Loud Life and 438 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: Shocking Murder of Alan Burg. Live Wire is a production 439 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: of iHeart Podcasts and Modulator Media. For more podcasts from 440 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 441 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.