1 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,080 Speaker 1: I'm Anny, I'm Noah. This is Den and you're listening 2 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 1: to no such thing the show where we settle ard 3 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: arguments and yours by actually doing the research. This week, 4 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 1: do the boys need to find God? 5 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 2: No, there's no no such thing. No such thing. Touch Thank, Touch, Thank, 6 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 2: touch Thank. 7 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: Today's episode was pitched by my wife and it's about 8 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: religion and happiness. The question is does being religious mean 9 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: you're going to be happier. Over the past few years, 10 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: there's been something of a resurgence in young people attending church. 11 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: New data from the Barner Group, which is a Christian 12 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:06,119 Speaker 1: research organization, so you know, maybe biased, they it shows 13 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: that Gen z and Millennials are more frequently going to church, 14 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: outpacing older generations. So this is out of people who 15 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: are already church goers. But in twenty twenty two, church 16 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,559 Speaker 1: going Zoomers and millennials went about one weekend per month. 17 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: Now that's up to just under two weekends per month, 18 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: so it's pretty big obviously, COVID whatever, I'm sure there's 19 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: other factors, but there's also been tons of other reporting on, 20 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: you know, arise in religion over the past few years. 21 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: It's like the trad caath kind of oh yeah, trend 22 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: these sorts of things that you can kind of see 23 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: ambiance le. So we want to find out if religion 24 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: makes people happier. To start, I guess why don't we 25 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: all go around and explain our religious backgrounds. 26 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 3: Many, Well, my parents are very religious. We are Catholic, 27 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 3: Like we are a Catholic family growing up. There's it's 28 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 3: called like Eastern right Catholicism, So it's basically the brand 29 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 3: of Catholicism in like the Arab world are in East Africa, 30 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 3: but it's still them in Catholic it's like just a 31 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 3: subsect of that. I grew up Catholic Mass every Sunday, 32 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 3: we went to like Sunday school. We like did it 33 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,239 Speaker 3: all like first communion. My confirmation saint was Saint Andrew 34 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 3: because he was the saint of Lost the Items, and 35 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 3: I was, I was, I was looking for my game 36 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 3: boy at the time. You pick that, Yeah, you have 37 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 3: to choose who your saint is, and they like they 38 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 3: kind of hold your hand through it and like you 39 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 3: look through them and like here's you're here's the saints 40 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 3: and what they're the saint of. And I was like, okay, 41 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 3: this makes sense. 42 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: Did you ever find Find the Game. 43 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 3: Yea, yeah, yeah, I think it was kind of loosely 44 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 3: related to that. 45 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: Hey he's just Devin. What about your background? 46 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 4: My background, My dad went to like Catholic school and 47 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:56,839 Speaker 4: his family, he grew up brothers. But he had kind 48 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 4: of the opposite reaction of like because it was like 49 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:01,119 Speaker 4: for down his throat as a kid. 50 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 5: He was like, I'm not going to raise. 51 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 4: Like we went to church who went to Mass every 52 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:11,839 Speaker 4: once in a while, usually around like I was baptized. Yeah, 53 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 4: some major holidays, we didn't go all that often. So 54 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 4: I would say there was like a vague Christianity in 55 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,359 Speaker 4: my life growing up, but like I didn't that wasn't confirm. 56 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 1: More just like a vig cultural thing like. 57 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, Christmas is about Jesus in some way, 58 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 4: you know, something like that. 59 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 5: But yeah, we weren't overly religious. 60 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 4: I like I never belonged to like a specific church 61 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 4: over like you know, we'd go, oh, this church is 62 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 4: cool and go for like two months and then And I. 63 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 3: Feel like that's probably the average kind of relationship people 64 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 3: have to religion, where it's like vaguely around the holidays 65 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 3: kind of a reason, like some kind of like I 66 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 3: don't know, amorphous glue to your family, but not something 67 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 3: that you're like, yeah. 68 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, it wasn't a weekly thing. 69 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: Do you you know, have faith than Jesus Christ? 70 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 5: Do I believe in Jesus Christ? Are you I believe 71 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 5: in God? 72 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: Sure? 73 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 5: No? No? 74 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: Not not you do? Wouldn't consider itself religious at all? 75 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 5: No, I don't believe in God. 76 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: What happens after Yeah? 77 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 5: What do I think happens after you die? Nothing? 78 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: That's a whole other episode we should be. 79 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 6: Yeah. 80 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just never like even going to church and stuff. 81 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 4: It's just like I never felt like I see what 82 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,559 Speaker 4: it does for other people and I'm like, oh that's cool, 83 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 4: but like, yeah, for me, I like I don't feel anything. 84 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 4: I think I believe in God when I was younger. 85 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 4: I think it's something I grew out of with time. 86 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,559 Speaker 1: So growing up, I mean, my family's Jewish. We always 87 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: consider ourselves very much more culturally Jewish than religious. We 88 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: would go to temple for like Passover and kind of 89 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: the major holidays, and we celebrated Hanukah, but it was 90 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 1: it was very much in the background and not you know, 91 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 1: faith and belief hadn't really very little to do with it. 92 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: It was much more about family and kind of just 93 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: doing traditions. And I also just think at the time, 94 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: like kind of politically and otherwise, like religion was a 95 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: much seemed like a much bigger conversation as like I 96 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 1: felt like there was so much music or other things 97 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: about being not religious. It felt like a bigger cultural 98 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: touchstone to like kind of point out the hypocrisy of 99 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,359 Speaker 1: the Christian right and all that, you know, like stuff 100 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 1: like that seems so much more popular. 101 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 6: We're making a documentary, but religion, Why doesn't he just 102 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 6: obliterate the devil and therefore get rid of evil in 103 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 6: the world? Will he will? 104 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 1: And I think that helps explain why now younger people 105 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: are exploring religion, because that's not like this big pervasive 106 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: if you look at Pendulum, Yeah, it's like that used 107 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: to be such a major thing of like pointing at 108 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: you know, the hypocrisy of you know, Jerry Falwell or whoever, 109 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: like these big religious figures. Yeah, like that whole thing, 110 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: and like obviously that's still there and people criticize those 111 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: things all the time, so it's not like that's gone. 112 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: But it felt like he used to be like a 113 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: major talking point and maybe not just our focus on 114 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 1: just different things where it's like like yeah, I'm not 115 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 1: going to argue with you about Jesus or whatever. 116 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,919 Speaker 3: Talking about this kind of cultural swing back to people 117 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 3: exploring religion, it's now I think like there's a backlash 118 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 3: towards what used to be. I think called like the 119 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 3: Reddit atheist, which is pretty much that Bill Maher documentary 120 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 3: where it's like okay, we get it, but yeah, you know, yeah, So. 121 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: It never really even occurred to me to earnestly explore religion. 122 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: I don't think now I'm I wouldn't consider myself religious, 123 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: but I'm more interested in religion as like it's just 124 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 1: when you look at the parallels between all the major 125 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: religions and all these things are like I was just 126 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 1: in Florence and you're looking at you know, painting over 127 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: painting over painting over centuries, and it's all the same, 128 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: you know, five scenes, and there's something at first you're 129 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: you see you go those are really interesting, and then 130 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: you see more and you go, okay, like it's baby 131 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: Jesus again. Then eventually I kind of hit a wall 132 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: and I was like, okay, wow, it's actually kind of amazing, 133 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: Like this is what this is like all people were 134 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: talking about, were like painting about for forever. It's like 135 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: there's a power in that sort of thing. And that 136 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: got me kind of then thinking more like, Okay, there's 137 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: obviously a real attraction to this, and then you know, 138 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: reading more about history or different things and different perspectives 139 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: on theology, whatever, it's like I'm more interested in an 140 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: academic way, I suppose. And then then kind of it's 141 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: like wondering how many people who do go to church 142 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: or temple or whatever every week believe in that stuff 143 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: literally versus just like, Okay, these are good life lessons 144 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: or whatever, which I think is probably more common or 145 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: more common than maybe discussed where it's like, yeah, there's 146 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: a community aspect of Okay, these are people who live 147 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: near me who I can talk to or whatever, and 148 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: you know, we're learning this or that from whatever scripture. 149 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: And in that sense, I get wanting to attend services 150 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: and be involved in that way, even if you're not 151 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: personally like looking for you know, redemption or whatever you 152 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: pass this life. So I think I'm a little more 153 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: sympathetic I suppose to religion that I than if you 154 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: had asked me maybe ten years ago or earlier than that. 155 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: Moving forward, Like my question with this and happiness is 156 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: would you get as much out of going to church 157 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: every week as you would by just joining a sports 158 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: club or something else like any other recreational community thing, 159 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: Like how much does the religious aspect play in versus 160 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: just like having people around you who maybe aren't just 161 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: your normal friend group but something else, and you're connected 162 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: by something different. 163 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 3: I'd be willing to bet that although both the religious 164 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 3: activity and the sports activity provide at its core, like 165 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 3: a sense of community that's like nice and familiar and comfortable, 166 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 3: I'd be willing to bet that the religious one feels 167 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 3: more important to people because it's like kind of the 168 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 3: higher calling, as you've heard before, or like something that 169 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 3: might affect what you think happens when you die, versus 170 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 3: like the bowling league. 171 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:12,439 Speaker 1: It's really fun, but probably not going to get me 172 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:14,559 Speaker 1: into heaven maybe yeah yeah. 173 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 3: Or like you know, religion at its core is kind 174 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 3: of like selling you on something right, like that this 175 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 3: thing will happen if you do X, Y, and Z 176 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 3: the right way. 177 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: Let's get our votes. Are religious people happier than non 178 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: religious people? 179 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 4: If I had the guess, yes, because it gives you 180 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 4: something to look forward to, Yeah, especially now where things 181 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 4: feel like they're so bad and it's just sort of 182 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 4: like and it also gives I would imagine it gives 183 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 4: your life some sort of even if you don't understand 184 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 4: why things are happening, gives it some order. Yeah, if 185 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 4: there's some sort of thought that there is some sort 186 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 4: of order and there is something beyond sort of the 187 00:09:57,880 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 4: struggle of today, I would guess. 188 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 3: Yes, Yeah, same. I think it's it has to do 189 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 3: with the level of comfort that you get if you 190 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 3: really believe that if you're a good person in your 191 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,199 Speaker 3: whole life and then you get to go somewhere special afterwards, 192 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 3: that gives you level of comfort and it gives you 193 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 3: some direction. 194 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 5: Yeah. 195 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 4: Even think about when people die, right it's like, oh, 196 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 4: you've seen him, and it's like. 197 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think I leaned towards yes as well. 198 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: My only other thought on it was like, if you're 199 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: really like, let's say, extremely religious, Oh, I think you 200 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: could turn and then it could turn where it's like 201 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,839 Speaker 1: you're looking around you at all these sinners and yes, 202 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: kind of just disgusted by everything you see. Then that 203 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: could make you, you know, more of a recluse or 204 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 1: like feel totally alone and isolated if you don't think 205 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: other people are being you know, religious in the right 206 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: way or religious at all, And it's what the hell, like, 207 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: what the hell world is this? So unless you then 208 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: I guess maybe you get through to the other side. 209 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: It's like, well, this is what I have to bear 210 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: to get through this. And then but with that count 211 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: is happiness. It's hard to say, yeah, I'm purely like 212 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: I'm going to church every week, and you know, I 213 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: make these friends and we talk about this stuff that 214 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: seems like a not positive in most cases. Obviously, then 215 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: there's issues with the church or whatever where not everyone's accepted, 216 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: and a lot of people maybe because their upbringing then 217 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: rebel against it and don't you know, definitely are not 218 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: interested even if maybe it would help them in some way. 219 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: So I'm curious to find out what the research says. 220 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 5: That's a good point. 221 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 4: I feel like, like you said, it's yes, and then 222 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 4: it's a no, because I think there are people get 223 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 4: lost in it. 224 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 3: It's like, what is that called the bell curve? Yeah, 225 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 3: It's like it's like yes, no. 226 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think if you hit the right medium level 227 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: it can be probably very beneficial. 228 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 4: People talk about like you know, people online and the 229 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,319 Speaker 4: like psychosist thing of like oh they see the devil 230 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 4: and everything right, It's like, oh, actually that was that song. 231 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 5: Wasn't just bad this is the devil? 232 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, trying that, It's like, okay, imagine living life like that. 233 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: So next up, I'm going to look into the research 234 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: and find out if there is a positive link between 235 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: religion and happiness. And later I want to go to 236 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: temple myself and hear from some religious people and maybe 237 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: do some praying. That's all all that. After the break, 238 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,079 Speaker 1: we're back. We're trying to figure out if religion makes 239 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: people happier. If I talked to doctor Harold Koenig, he's 240 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,239 Speaker 1: a professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Duke University. 241 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: He's in researching spirituality and health. For about forty years. 242 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 6: I had been a nurse and then I became a 243 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 6: family physician, and during that time I would ask patients 244 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 6: how they're coping with their health issues. It was part 245 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 6: of what you know as a nurse we had been 246 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 6: trained to do, and so I continued that as a 247 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 6: family doctor, and many patients would talk about their religious faith. 248 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 6: So I thought, gosh, you know, we haven't been trained 249 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 6: on this in nursing school or medical school, or family 250 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 6: medicine or none of those areas. This was completely new 251 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 6: for me, and I thought, that's fascinating. Let's do some 252 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,319 Speaker 6: research and just see how common this is and what 253 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 6: impact it has on a person's health. So that's how 254 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:36,439 Speaker 6: I got started. So there are measures of well being 255 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 6: and happiness, and they are often maybe ten questions or 256 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 6: twenty questions, and so there are scales that you can 257 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:49,719 Speaker 6: administer to give you a sense of how happy a 258 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 6: person is. And then you can also measure religious involvement 259 00:13:55,000 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 6: through scales that are assessing dimensions like intrinsic religiosity, a 260 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 6: person's connection with God, the strength of their faith and 261 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 6: their religious commitment, their frequency of prayer, of scripture study, 262 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 6: those kinds of questions, and how often do they attend 263 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 6: religious services. These measures are all included in a questionnaire, 264 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 6: along with the person's age, race, gender, their socioeconomic status, 265 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 6: their social support, various other characteristics, and then we look 266 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 6: at the correlation. 267 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: To get straight to it. Here's what his research has found. 268 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 6: One of the first studies we did actually now probably 269 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 6: over thirty years ago was looking at this exact question, 270 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 6: was a person's level of well being or happiness was 271 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 6: it connected with their religious faith and their religious practices, 272 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 6: And in fact it was then that's kind of what's 273 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 6: prized me and encouraged me that to continue to do 274 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 6: research in this area. So then we started looking at 275 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 6: depression and anxiety, and then started looking at physical health 276 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 6: including blood pressure, immune functioning, longevity, all sorts of different 277 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 6: health outcomes, and they just kept coming up positively. Is 278 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 6: that those who are more engaged in a faith community, 279 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 6: those who had a stronger connection with God, just seemed 280 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 6: to do better in every way. Their social relationships were better, 281 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 6: you know, their blood pressure, as I said, was lower, 282 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,239 Speaker 6: their immune functioning it was better. They were living longer, 283 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 6: from seven to fourteen years, longer than those who were 284 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 6: not part of a faith community. It was just continually 285 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 6: reinforcing what I had seen clinically as a family doctor. 286 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 3: That's wild. The most fascinating part is how much longer 287 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 3: you live if you are engaging in those kind of 288 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 3: like regular religious activities. Seven to fourteen years is nuts. 289 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: It's a long time. Fourteen years. I could I could 290 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: pray a little bit for. 291 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 3: That that's part of the part of what you get 292 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 3: out of this. 293 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 4: Well, that makes sense because if they talk about when 294 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 4: you think about, you know, how deadly loneliness is. Yeah, 295 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 4: if you have this built in community, it's like a 296 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 4: shorthand for community right to me, right of just sort 297 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 4: of like you see a lot of people who you 298 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 4: are regularly seeing you're leaving the house, right, like, if 299 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 4: you're not doing too well, people who are going to 300 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 4: be checking it up on you and you you know, 301 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 4: you think about okay, especially as you get older. Yeah, 302 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 4: if people don't have their kids aren't around, right, see 303 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 4: some older people where it's like, oh god, if that 304 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 4: neighbored it and like just you know, get some sort 305 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 4: of interest in that person that they would just literally 306 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 4: be alone. 307 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: And some of those studies look into this too, like 308 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: you're less likely to smoke and drink and gamble and 309 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: other vices to accountable that are gonna hurt your you know, 310 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: so it leads to other things. Pew Research Center did 311 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: a big study and released a lot of data on 312 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: this in twenty nineteen looking at the correlation, and it 313 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 1: bears out very similar results. They looked at a bunch 314 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: of countries, but for the US for an example, like 315 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 1: the percentage of people who say they are very happy 316 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: among those who are religiously active is thirty six percent 317 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: versus people who are unaffiliated or inactive it's twenty five percent. 318 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 1: That is pretty consistent across the different countries. Some countries 319 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: like Mexico's much more religious, it seems like, so like there, 320 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: it's like seventy one percent of active religious people are 321 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 1: very happy to sixty one percent unaffiliated. But it's pretty 322 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: much about a ten point spread across the board. It's huge, 323 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: it seems like, which is yeah, pretty big. And that 324 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 1: also acts the same things as far as Health're more 325 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: likely to be civically engaged too, so you're more likely 326 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: to vote if you're religious, which makes sense, makes sense 327 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: to knowing what we know, Yeah, and same with smoking 328 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: in those things. Religiosity is on the decline overall societally. 329 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: That that means we're probably going to see societal well 330 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,640 Speaker 1: being decrease. It's interesting to think about too, because it's 331 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: like I wouldn't necessarily argue that it's better for countries 332 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: to be religious, yeah, you know, especially separation of church 333 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: and state these like, but it's it's kind of an 334 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: interesting thing like what's best for people, you know. 335 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, which is what you hear from JD. Vance and 336 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 3: like all these kind of maga guys who are so 337 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 3: against the idea of like a secular society. Yeah, because 338 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,439 Speaker 3: they're afraid or they're pretending to be afraid that there 339 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 3: might be societal decline if we move further away from 340 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 3: a like church. 341 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 4: Well that's the classic thing of like you take away 342 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 4: something and then you don't feel devoid. Right, So it's 343 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 4: like the country is becoming less religious and you don't 344 00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 4: build in. 345 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 5: Other ways for people to kind of you're also. 346 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 4: Shutting down the bowling alleys yeah, community, yeah, you know, 347 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 4: and it's it's the class that you know. It's like 348 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 4: if you talk about conservatives, you know, getting rid of 349 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 4: government programs and saying rely on your churches for that 350 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 4: sort of thing, right, I'm just sort of like, yeah, 351 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 4: the church is supposed to fill that void in a 352 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 4: lot of conservatives' minds, and which makes sense based on 353 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 4: the study, right of like the people who are partaking 354 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 4: in this stuff are doing better. 355 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 5: But it's like it's crazy to. 356 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 4: Be like, actually, the only way for you to live 357 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 4: longer is you got to figure out you got to 358 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 4: be a lot of one of these religions because we 359 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 4: as a government, we're not going to do anything for you. 360 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: So yeah, well that yeah, I know. 361 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 5: The church. 362 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: Is also a part of the study where it says, 363 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: like I'll read this. The data presented in the report 364 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: indicates that there are links between religious activity and certain 365 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 1: measures of well being in many countries. The numbers don't 366 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 1: prove that going to religious services is directly responsible for 367 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: improving people's lives. Rather, it could be certain kinds of 368 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 1: people tend to be active in multiple types of activities, 369 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: secular as well as religious, many of which provide physical 370 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: or psychological benefits. Moreover, such people may be more active 371 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 1: partly because they are happier and healthier rather than the 372 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 1: other right around. 373 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 5: Which makes sense, Like it's correlation versus cause. 374 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like some total loner who doesn't go to church 375 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: probably might not go to something else or be involved 376 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: in something else too, So it's yeah, it's like which 377 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 1: is the start or which is the cause. It's interesting, like, 378 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: and I think a valid point to make for sure. Yeah, 379 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: I wanted to know how the social community factor weighed 380 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: against the faith element by itself, because the benefit coming 381 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: from having a community, or does belief itself impact health outcomes? 382 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: If I go to church every week, but maybe I 383 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 1: don't personally believe in God per se, I might still 384 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: reap some benefits of being involved in my community and 385 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: all this. How do you kind of balance those things 386 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: or what do you see when you look into that. 387 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 6: I think they're both going on in terms of the mechanism. 388 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 6: So being part of a faith community reinforces your belief 389 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 6: and your commitment, and of course your belief and commitments 390 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 6: are reinforcing your engagement in a religious community, so they 391 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 6: are mutually reinforcing. Social activities are part of it. So 392 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 6: that's part of the mechanism, but it only explains about 393 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 6: twenty five percent of the effect that religious involvement has 394 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 6: on happiness. A lot of it has to do with 395 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 6: a personal connection with God, you know, believing that life 396 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 6: has purpose and meaning and that you're part of God's 397 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 6: plan in the world. That this gives you a sense 398 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 6: of energy, and that's a big part of it. 399 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: So, I mean, you couldn't replace church going with say, 400 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: joining the bowling league. You're probably going to see different effects. 401 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 6: You are, You're going to certainly derive benefits, social benefits 402 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 6: and physical benefits from joining a bowling league. But it's 403 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 6: not to have the same impact that religious faith has 404 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 6: simply because you know, not only is religious faith dealing 405 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 6: with with behaviors and beliefs and social interactions in this life, 406 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 6: it's talking about life after this life, you know, life 407 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 6: after death, kind of the spiritual world that is in 408 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 6: some ways maybe connected with with the physical world that 409 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 6: we live in. So it goes far beyond just the 410 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 6: social or even the behavioral and the cognitive aspects of it. 411 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 6: Because religion really has power in it. There are very 412 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 6: few things that people will die for, you know, but 413 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 6: religion is one of them. 414 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: I was thinking about the community aspect because it's like, 415 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: all right, well, I'm picturing now like some not like 416 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: a monk necessarily, but basically like a recluse who is 417 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,199 Speaker 1: very devout. Is that person going to be as happy 418 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 1: as someone who is, you know, maybe not involved with 419 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 1: their church but has more of a social life. Obviously 420 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: there's going to be a million different factors to control. 421 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 6: Many many different factors a play there. But yeah, you know, 422 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 6: a recluse who has a strong religious belief is probably 423 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 6: gonna be happier than a recluse without such a belief. 424 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, fact, you know. 425 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 6: But but certainly the social interaction is a significant part 426 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 6: and that's what the scriptures teach. They teach to love 427 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 6: your neighbor, and you can't do that unless you're around 428 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 6: your neighbor. 429 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 3: Well, I'd like to disagree with the notion that bowling 430 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 3: is not a religious Maybe that's just me. 431 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 5: You haven't you haven't bold game like a bowl? 432 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, that turkey, you're gonna be frying after that? 433 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: God, God, right, because that was my probably my biggest 434 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: question I was wrestling with was like that kind of 435 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,479 Speaker 1: extreme end of it where it's like if you're totally 436 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: isolated or something like, how does that benefit you or not? 437 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting. I was thinking about, you know, a 438 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 3: total you know, recluse who is religious and then a 439 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,120 Speaker 3: recluse that isn't. Before this episode, I might have thought 440 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 3: that the recluse that's religious might not be that as happy. 441 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: That doesn't seem very happy to me. 442 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, but if you're compared to a recluse, like maybe 443 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 3: maybe that person's like content, you know, like with living 444 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 3: their life that way. But it does make sense the 445 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 3: kind of the higher calling the life after death that 446 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 3: he's referring to that that it makes sense that would 447 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 3: drive you towards a contentness. 448 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: Then I was also curious about his work with veterans 449 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: because I wanted to know how religion does come up 450 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: in those context and you know, like I was curious, 451 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: like does he actively encourage it and how he kind 452 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 1: of approaches that. 453 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 6: So typically, in a clinical situation, I would not encourage 454 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,360 Speaker 6: people to turn to religion. I would listen to them, 455 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 6: take a spiritual history and try to learn what's been 456 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 6: their experiences in the past with religion. You know, have 457 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 6: they left their home religion because of you know, hurt 458 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 6: and because of their lifestyle now, et cetera. I would 459 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 6: want to learn about that, just see how religion currently 460 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 6: and in the past has influenced their their health and 461 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 6: mental health, and pretty much just walk alongside of them 462 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 6: as they're going through various things. I might support whatever 463 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 6: religion is there, you know, but I wouldn't necessarily introduce it. 464 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 1: That a lot of people, you know, maybe have a 465 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 1: very religious upbringing and then reject it because maybe the 466 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: you know, the religion doesn't accept their lifestyle or other reasons, 467 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: and then they kind of move away from it and 468 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 1: never kind of look back. What would you say to 469 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 1: someone like that, whether they maybe don't want to go 470 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: back to whatever they grow up in or are a 471 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: little nervous about exploring something new, what's your kind of 472 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 1: response to that sort of angle. 473 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 6: Yeah, well, you know, there are so many different options 474 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 6: in terms of different churches, different religious faith traditions that 475 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 6: you could go into. You know that that may be 476 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 6: different from the faith tradition that you grew up in, 477 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 6: and so there are a lot of options out there. 478 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,640 Speaker 6: One thing we didn't cover was the fact that religion 479 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 6: doesn't always make people happier, and sometimes people manipulate religion 480 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 6: in ways that is hurtful for them and for others 481 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 6: around them. So, you know, it's anything very powerful can 482 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 6: be used in a negative way to create unhappiness and 483 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,719 Speaker 6: poor health. It happens, people get abused by clergy, you know, 484 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 6: there are a radical religion, or people kill other people 485 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,719 Speaker 6: or their religion. But again, if you look over all, 486 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 6: it does seem to have a benefit when it's done 487 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 6: in a sensible way, in a committed way, and in 488 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 6: a way that most encourages love of God and love 489 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 6: of neighbors. I think you've got to have both of 490 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 6: them in balance. 491 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: There's obviously tons of stories and studies about the decline 492 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 1: in religiosity, what's caused that? And then the second part 493 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: is how do you think that could be restored? 494 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 6: Well, I think the the increase in science, which has 495 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 6: certainly provided tremendous benefits, you know, to humanity, and the 496 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,959 Speaker 6: science world has kind of become the new source of truth. 497 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 6: You know, for a long time, it was the clergy 498 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 6: and the ministers that were you know, influencing you know, 499 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 6: sources of truth in the world. But that's all changed now. 500 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 6: Now there's technology and science that are that are providing 501 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,719 Speaker 6: you know, us with great ability to control things in 502 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 6: our world, and that's becoming more a source of truth 503 00:27:49,960 --> 00:28:00,199 Speaker 6: as opposed to you know, a person's religious faith. What 504 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 6: do we do about this decline in religious involvement? You know, 505 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 6: religion is hard too, It's not like an easy pathway 506 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 6: to follow. You have to be self disciplined, you have 507 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 6: to control your natural desires and all of these things, 508 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 6: so it's hard to follow. So what do you do 509 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 6: about it? Well, I think you want to keep an 510 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 6: open mind, keep an open mind that you know what 511 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,199 Speaker 6: we're seeing and feeling and going through right now in 512 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 6: this physical world. This may not be all there is. 513 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 6: There may be something more, something that intersects with this 514 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 6: physical world in some way that is that it's maybe 515 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 6: impossible to study. And recognizing that eighty percent of the 516 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:52,239 Speaker 6: world's population believes in God or a higher power, and 517 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 6: so if you're looking at you know, beliefs in terms 518 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 6: of you know, the supernatural, most people that there is 519 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 6: something beyond just this life. So just keep an open mind, 520 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 6: and you know, life will teach you lessons if you 521 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 6: let it. If your mind is open, and consider maybe 522 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 6: attending a church. You know, if you've been part of 523 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 6: a faith community before it, you know, you might consider 524 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 6: going back and and seeing if if that fits for you. 525 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 6: And even if it doesn't fit for you, maybe ought 526 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 6: to force yourself to do it, because you know there 527 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 6: are tremendous benefits to your health and and you know, 528 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 6: maybe even your life after death with regard to this, 529 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 6: And it's a it's a pretty easy risk to to 530 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 6: take because if there isn't anything after death, you know, 531 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 6: you're not going to be any worse off. You'll you'll 532 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 6: just never know, uh, you know, and if there is something, 533 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 6: then you'll be better off. So you're you're you're not 534 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 6: losing anything by developing a and engaging in a practice. 535 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 6: And we know that these practices do have a very 536 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 6: positive effects on your health, your relationships, and and even 537 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 6: your your physical health and your longevity. 538 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: So overall, I mean, what do you guys think of this? 539 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: Does it change your views or like your outlook on religion. 540 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 3: Not really, but it did. It provided a lot of 541 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 3: insight about like how people think about this. I think 542 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 3: all three of us said that we think that religions 543 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 3: probably makes you more likely to be happy if you 544 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 3: believe in it. But it is interesting to hear about 545 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 3: the faith part of it versus the community driven and 546 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 3: part of it. Where like if you ask someone who 547 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 3: grew up Catholic, for example, just to keep using this 548 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 3: example because it's my experience in America, they're probably not 549 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 3: that religious today. 550 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 4: It's like a common trope. Yeah, it's like they become 551 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 4: less religious, right. 552 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,719 Speaker 3: But there is probably like if they do, if they 553 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 3: have kids or whatever and they felt like they wanted 554 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 3: to be a part of some community, there does exist 555 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 3: like a default way to do that. I guess, yeah, 556 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 3: versus like trying to find at like an art club 557 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 3: or something like that. Like at least you know that 558 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 3: there's gonna be something around the corner from you where 559 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 3: you could go do that if you wanted to. Yeah, 560 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 3: it feels less kind of feels less about the praying 561 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 3: and the worship and more about like being a part 562 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 3: of a community. 563 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 6: Yeah. 564 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's definitely tied into so much just cultural stuff 565 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: in like how people are raised, even if it is 566 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: pretty secular really in practice, Devinny, any takeaways from this, Yeah. 567 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 4: I guess to me, what it brought to mind is like, okay, 568 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 4: religion has It's like it's this template for these things that, 569 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 4: especially as you're getting older, can help you in life. 570 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 4: Like you're talking about community, belief in something beyond yourself, right, 571 00:31:54,880 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 4: like drive towards something. Yeah, And like I'm not religious. 572 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 4: I don't plan on becoming religious anytime soon, you know. 573 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 4: When I have kids, I don't plan on, you know, 574 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 4: certainly enjoining a church or whatever. So that it brings 575 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 4: to mind to me, Oh, how are what are ways 576 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 4: for me to instill these things into my life, my 577 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 4: children's lives that are not tied to a church that 578 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 4: you know, it's going to take a bit more work, 579 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 4: Like man is saying, I can't just show up somewhere 580 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 4: and be like, all right, these are we're all going 581 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 4: to be a community. And you know, like I think, 582 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 4: you know, I don't go to church, but like I 583 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 4: go to therapy and like I try to work on 584 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 4: myself in different ways. So I think in some ways, 585 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 4: I'm already doing a version of like I don't have 586 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 4: that thing, so like what is my thing or my 587 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 4: way of doing this? 588 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 5: But it is like there's not as much structure to it. 589 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's certainly it's certainly not the case that 590 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 3: if you're not religious then you can't be happy. And 591 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 3: it's like there's like that's a whole different thing. 592 00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: Now. To wrap things up, I'm going to try to 593 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: connect for the local synagogue here in New York, go 594 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: to a service and talk to a rabbi to get 595 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 1: their take on the value of religion in these modern times. 596 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 3: Beautiful blessed right. 597 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 7: Everybody, All right, I'm back. 598 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: This is Noah. What you're hearing right now is the 599 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: Shabbat service. I went to a congregation base in Katsurah. 600 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: I thought it was important for the episode to check 601 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: out a religious service myself. Not that I was expecting 602 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: to have a major epiphany, but just to go in 603 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: with an open mind and really see how it felt. 604 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: I'll write up some more thoughts on my experience for 605 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: this week's newsletter, but for now, I wanted to share 606 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: some bits of my conversation with the ten Sad rabb 607 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: by Jason Klein about the role of religion in people's 608 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: lives today. Rabbi Clin broke it down three tenants Belonging, behaving, 609 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: and believing. 610 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 8: I'm Rabbi Jason Klein. Since July of twenty twenty four, 611 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 8: I've been the senior Rabbi of Congregation bets Sinkata. Rad 612 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 8: Werkai Kaplan, the founder of the Jewish Reconstructions movement, kind 613 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 8: of took the words belonging, behaving, and believing and really 614 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 8: centered them around how people have religious experiences. He talked 615 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 8: about Judaism as a civilization, and often it's that belonging 616 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 8: piece that sometimes gets saved for last when people talk 617 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 8: about religion, because people somehow go right to God, God, God, 618 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 8: God God, or what happens when I die? Die, Die, 619 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 8: Die Die, you know, instead of the piece that often 620 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 8: really comes first, which is, have I just found a 621 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 8: group of people with whom I'm happy to connect, a 622 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 8: community where I feel like I can be myself, a 623 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,839 Speaker 8: community where I'd want to celebrate simply happy occasions in life, 624 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 8: or figure you more, or even struggle together. Sometimes I 625 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 8: think that ritual gives us a framework to stop and 626 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 8: mark certain moments. Right, If I'm someone who prays three 627 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 8: times a day, then no matter what. 628 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,439 Speaker 9: I'm doing, there are going to be three times during 629 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,760 Speaker 9: the day where at least for a couple of minutes, 630 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 9: I stop, I put my feet together, I face Jerusalem 631 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 9: and say nineteen blessings. 632 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,240 Speaker 8: And maybe that's sort of like a little baseline of something, 633 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 8: but it's it feels powerful that even when I feel 634 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 8: like the most distracted or the most stressed, that there's 635 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 8: a little, a little gift in there to myself, you know, 636 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 8: maybe a little focused connection between me and the divine. 637 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 8: And sometimes I think that when we talk about words 638 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 8: like spiritual practice, right, this idea of practice is that, 639 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 8: you know, not every time that we do a certain 640 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 8: act like prayer, does it makes sense to expect to 641 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,799 Speaker 8: have this like earth shattering, transformative spiritual experience. But by 642 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 8: making room for some of these things, we do open 643 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:17,399 Speaker 8: the possibility that something different will happen, that we kind 644 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 8: of shift our miliu for a moment. Maybe that's what 645 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 8: leads into the third piece, the third bee of believing, 646 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 8: which is possibility coming to a mentality where we have 647 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 8: choices in our life, where there's not just like a 648 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:39,720 Speaker 8: simple end of despairing position and instead creating a space 649 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 8: to think about something in a different way, creating knowing 650 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 8: that there could be rituals to mark moments of joy, 651 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 8: to really stay in them and not just kind of 652 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 8: move on to the next thing. I think some of 653 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 8: that ritual behavior can create opportunities. I'm not even sure 654 00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 8: if the word is to quote unquote be happy, but 655 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 8: I do think that only cultivate the awareness of our happiness. 656 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 8: That does something to our brains, and we can kind 657 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 8: of come back to that to that place. So the 658 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 8: practical difference between like, Okay, that was delicious piece of caracake, 659 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 8: now let me move on, versus like that was a 660 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 8: delicious piece of karakeke. 661 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 10: I'm just gonna sit here for a minute and think, like, wow, 662 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 10: how was really specials. 663 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: He's no such thing as the production of Kaleidoscope Content. 664 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,760 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Kate Osborne and make Guest Shot Secure. 665 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 1: The show was created by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman, and 666 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: Devon Joseph. Themon credits song by Manny, mixing by Steve Bone, 667 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: Thanks Steve. Our guest this week are doctor Harold Koenig 668 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: and Rabbi Jason Klein. Special thanks to Congregation Baits and 669 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: Katsurah and Stephanie Kramer at the Pew Research Center. Visit 670 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 1: No Such Thing dot show to subscribe to dig into 671 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,720 Speaker 1: the research and see some other info on the subject. 672 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 1: If you have feedback for us or a question, our 673 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 1: email is Manny Nodevin at gmail dot com, or you 674 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 1: can also leave us voicemail by calling the number in 675 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: our show notes. 676 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 2: Thanks, Hell's raids, Hell's rams, Hell's as Hell's No Such Thing.