WEBVTT - Julien Baker 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:03.960 Hello everyone, and welcome the inside the studio on iHeart Radio. 0:00:04.160 --> 0:00:06.800 My name's Jordan runt Dog, But enough about me. My 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:10.719 guest today is one of my favorite contemporary songwriters. In February, 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:13.840 she released her new album Little Oblivions, a stunning work 0:00:13.880 --> 0:00:17.160 of emotional bravery, inspired in large part by a crisis 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:20.600 of faith. The song's chronicle her difficult last few years, 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:23.239 as she relapsed in the substance abuse and began to 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.680 reconsider her devout Christian beliefs. Both her sobriety and a 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:30.240 religion formed crucial pillars of her personal and public identity, 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:34.720 serving as themes for past songs and frequent topics of interviews. Now, 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.720 her relationship to both was radically shifting, leading to a 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:41.320 period of self reflection and reevaluation. She canceled a tour 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:43.960 in twenty nineteen and returned to her home in Nashville, 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:47.080 where she reset. She finished out her undergraduate degree at 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:50.120 Middle Tennessee State, and for a time briefly wondered whether 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:53.120 she'd ever returned to her former life as a musician. Thankfully, 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:55.760 she did, and the result was her most compelling work 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:58.960 to date. Musically, she expands on her acoustic past with 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:01.360 a full band sound oun playing nearly all of the 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:05.240 instruments herself. The lyrics tackle the pain of spiritual uncertainty 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:09.040 with phrases that are self aware and at times self lacerating. 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:11.959 An exorcism of private shame. I wish you'd hurt me, 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:14.760 she sings on song and e it's the mercy I 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:17.600 can't take. In addition to her music, she's one of 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:22.160 the all time great interviewees. In conversation, she's insightful, warm, 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:26.080 self deprecating, and eminently fearless. These are the same traits 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:28.520 that make her music so darn good. I'm so happy 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:32.160 to welcome Julian Baker. Thank you, Thank you so much 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:34.600 for taking the time today. I'm so thrilled to speak 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:36.840 to you. I really appreciate it. Oh of course, it's 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:39.360 my pleasure. Thank you for having me and taking the 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:41.440 time to speak with me. It's it's mutual. So many 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:42.560 things I want to ask you, but I want to 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:44.520 start with a question that's been imbued with a whole 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:46.960 new level of meaning in the last year, and that's 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:49.200 how are you? How are you doing today? You know 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:55.160 today I'm really good. I got my coffee. It was 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:57.840 raining this morning, but the sun is coming out. Yeah, 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:00.520 I'm just trying to be happy about the little things. 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:02.400 I don't know if if there's one thing that this 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:05.800 last year has taught me, it's like how to focus 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:08.679 in on and recognize the things that actually do make 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:11.720 me happy in what I can celebrate, because it seems 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:15.080 like there's been a deficit of things to celebrate or 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:17.840 be happy about for a long time. Elements of clarity, 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:20.520 I say, in the not really having a lot of 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:24.160 external distractions, I suppose, Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean for 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:25.520 so much of the last year, for all of us, 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:28.680 it's been about accepting uncertainty in their lives and kind 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:31.520 of allowing it to exist without completely crippling us, which 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:33.840 in a way is a major through line through your 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:37.240 new record, Little Oblivion's accepting that uncertainty and sort of 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:40.600 being okay with it. What's that process been like for you? 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:45.240 Oh man, It's it's been difficult. I mean, I think 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:49.080 it's taken a lot of work in my own personal 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:54.320 life too, except that it's healthier to just sit with 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:59.040 uncertainty or discomfort than to try to medicate or negator 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:02.520 suage it with whatever. You know, it could be anything, 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:07.519 substances or like compulsive behaviors or just downright like suppression, 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:12.680 and uh yeah, I feel a lot more peaceful actually. 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:15.240 And I think I was really apprehensive about this record 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:17.840 for the reasons you mentioned, because it does kind of 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:22.359 touch on kind of touch on. No, it completely concerns 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:27.160 into in totality of the record is about trying to 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:31.080 dismantle belief systems and value systems in your life and 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:33.919 rebuild them from scratch. And I was really apprehensive about 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:35.680 doing press around this record, but I found the more 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.800 that I talked about it, the more clarity I actually 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:44.360 have about what needed to be done in my own life. Yeah. Sorry, 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:48.480 my dog is um crawling around under my desk, So 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:51.520 if you hear the little like this noise, it's just 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:54.240 her tail. Though not at all. You and I. You 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:57.080 and I share something during For for my entire life, 0:03:57.160 --> 0:03:59.760 I have been completely apathetic to animals. And in the 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:02.040 LA last year a switch went off in me and 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:05.000 I've become I'm desperate for a dog my apartment and 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:06.800 let me have one. I've become one of those people 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:09.280 that actually sees them on the streets and like, you know, 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:11.240 elbows my girlfriend, Like, oh my god, look at that. 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:15.200 So no, that's that Z. I got a dog a 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:17.560 little bit before quarantine, and I don't know what I 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:21.160 would have done without having a dog. But also like, yeah, 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:23.360 I was kind of the same way. I wasn't ambivalent 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:26.119 about animals, but I was just like, cool, they're cute, 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:28.520 moving on. Yeah, they're cute, moving on. Yeah. And now 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:34.040 it's like I cannot stop myself from acknowledging every dog 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:37.200 I see. If I see a dog and we're driving, 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:41.800 I will interrupt any conversation to be like dog is 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:43.960 the same thing with my partners, like, oh my god, yeah, 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:45.600 we've seen like five dogs. You don't have to pour 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:47.839 them all on to me. But yeah, I get you. Well, 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:51.400 I'm glad we have that cassion. I feel less alone now. Yeah, 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:54.520 it's been such a transform in a few years for 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:56.760 you and your relationship to a lot of like, as 0:04:56.800 --> 0:05:00.440 you mentioned, crucial emotional and spiritual pillars have changed. Has 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:03.440 your relationship to music changed at all? Yeah? I think so. 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:07.480 I mean maybe not necessarily that it's changed, but that 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:09.880 I don't know, it feels more like a returning, Like 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:12.719 it felt like there was something that I needed to 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:17.200 uncover that had become convoluted about music for me because 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:20.919 of being plunged into the world of being a performer 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:24.920 with you know, albeit a regular size, small one, Like 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:27.480 you know, I have this platform and this like public 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.160 awareness and like people are aware of my music and 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:33.360 follow it. And while in the scheme of things that 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:36.760 recognition is only mini school, it felt so huge to 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:42.240 me and it happened very quickly, and music became something 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:46.760 that I did with the desire to like positively impact 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:50.200 the world and with an extreme amount of consideration for 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:53.040 the impact that what I said were in my songs 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:55.360 you know, would have on a listener. Also, I think, 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:59.200 you know, just because playing music became for the first 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:02.120 time in my life, my livelihood, I don't know, there's 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:04.240 also a lot of like fear tied up in that 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:09.040 and a risk aversion that comes with feeling that this 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:11.359 is not only my creative outlet where I where I 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:16.360 get to experiment and explore and U enquire into my 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:18.719 own being. It's now what I do so that I 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:20.479 can have a roof over my head and so that 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:23.200 I can pay other people in my life so that 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:26.680 they can live. And that's really like that's a big 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:29.960 shift to undergo and then I think I just kind 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:34.000 of glossed over it because touring, the inertia of touring 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:37.120 is so constant that you're like being propelled into a 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:39.720 new city, in a new situation, in a new performance 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:43.400 space literally every day. So yeah, when I took some 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:46.680 time off of the road, I think it was like 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:48.360 I a would say this, but it was like riding 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:50.960 a bicycle slowly and everything just got kind of like 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:54.440 off balance and wobbly, and I had to stop doing 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:56.719 what I was doing so I could analyze, like why 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:58.520 why am I making music in the first place. And 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:02.080 I think after having some time away from existing purely 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:06.920 as a as a performer and doing music for an audience, 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:12.560 I had the gift of perspective where I recognized that 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:15.440 I was still writing songs even though I thought like, 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:17.280 maybe no one will hear them. I don't know if 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:19.000 i'll make another record again, I don't know if I'll 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:21.200 ever be able to tour again. But I'm still making 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:25.480 songs because it's something into girl to how I process 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:27.920 my emotions and how I understand the world around me 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:30.200 and myself. And I think, I don't know, it's not 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:33.440 I don't want to say a renewed love for music, Like, 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:35.600 I don't want to say that I've developed a renewed 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:37.840 love for music as if I was ever jaded or 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:41.160 disillusioned with it in the first place, because I've never 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:45.040 wavered on. The things I've wavered on about music aren't 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:47.120 whether or not I love playing it, whether or not 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:49.320 I'm going to pick up an instrument again. It's been like, 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:54.000 do I think that I am capable of making music 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:56.640 in the context of being a performer as my job? Yeah, 0:07:56.840 --> 0:08:00.200 So now I think I'm just I'm trying to do 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:03.240 a better job of separating those things so that I 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:07.400 can have a healthier relationship with music itself. And it 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:09.600 must have been so great to step back and then 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:12.840 choose to get back into music and to actually know like, no, 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:15.000 this is the thing, this, this is actually something that 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:16.400 that I want to be involved with. And to know 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.040 that you made that choice must must feel really I 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:20.960 don't know if empowering is the right word, but must 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:25.120 really renew your faith in the music. Yeah, empowering is 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:27.040 totally the right word. I don't know, And I think 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:30.360 it had a lot to do also with the fact that, 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:35.679 like I collapsed myself with the identity of being a performer, 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:39.760 and then that was the sole focus of my life. 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:42.960 Is like not performing as in like playing a part, 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:46.240 but performing is in hitting the right notes and wrapping 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:49.720 your whole. I'd self worth up in that too, yeah, exactly. 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:54.319 And then when I realized that, if you know, it 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:56.959 was this kind of it was a really painful experience 0:08:57.120 --> 0:08:59.640 for like, you know, me to go to really unhealthy 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:02.960 place and watch everything that I thought, you know, that 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:06.320 I built up around my life that I guess felt 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:10.040 like being a successful musician, you know, watching all that 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:13.120 kind of like go away and going back to school 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:17.360 and thinking about maybe doing something else for a living 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:21.040 for a while, Like that was helpful for me to understand, 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:26.000 like I can make music without putting so much pressure 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:30.199 on myself as this entity in public space that also 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:33.240 has to perform. I can just make music because I 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:37.120 believe that the things that human beings create seeking understanding 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:40.320 are the artworks they make are ultimately just a piece 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:42.920 of communication. And that's fine. You can't put that on 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:46.320 a hierarchical scale of like good music and bad music. 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:49.319 But I mean, you know, I believe that I'm not 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:52.520 sure if like hundreds of music publications believe that. But 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:55.560 you know, I should have said this earlier. The album 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:58.920 is absolutely incredible. In addition to so many other adjectives, 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:01.960 it's just such a fear list record. The vulnerability and 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:05.840 the honesty, it's just so admirable and it just really inspiring. 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:09.880 I mean, I hope that that's something that you feel. Yeah, no, 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:12.920 I mean, releasing this record I was, you know, I've 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:15.200 already said I was pretty apprehensive about it. But in 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:21.040 some ways it's been quite liberating to put something out 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:23.280 that felt I don't know. It felt like a departure 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:25.840 from my old music for me, but then in the 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:27.520 grand scheme of things, it's like, no, it really just 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:29.800 it still sounds like my songwriting. It's just like now 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:32.800 there's drums. But it did feel very I think maybe 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:36.040 what was more meaningful to me was the lyrical content 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:41.520 being so explicit in a way where it was like, 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:47.120 I don't know, trying to dismantle publicly the ideas that 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:51.040 maybe people who listen to my music had had about me, 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:55.040 and trying to unsaddle myself with the identity of being 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:59.400 a person who practiced the sobriety perfectly, a person who 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.960 ractus is kindness, perfectly a person who's like in any 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:06.480 way like well put together, and it's like to expose 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:10.640 those things felt almost relieving to me. You know, there 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:12.679 was a great quote you gave, and I hate reading 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:15.160 quotes back because that always sounds like something a prosecutor does. 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:17.319 But there's an amazing quote I really stuck with me 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:19.440 is that this record is about letting go of the 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:22.960 prospect of ever being a fully good person. And I 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:25.559 I a part of me smiled at that because I thought, cool, 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:28.960 join the club, Like that's an incredibly high bar to 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:31.440 to set for oneself, and to to kind of let 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:33.640 yourself off the hook has got to be liberating as 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:36.080 a human and certainly as an artist. Yeah, And I 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:40.240 think it also like it enables me to focus more, 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:42.480 like when you see like letting yourself off the hook, 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:44.280 it is kind of like that. And I think that's 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:47.319 it's kind of a double edged sword of a revelation 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:49.319 because I think there is a period in my life, 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:52.000 especially like throughout the writing of this record, when I 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:55.319 was really in the trenches of like figuring out sobriety 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:59.080 again and figuring out faith again. Like there was this 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:03.160 point I think where I felt the most nihilistic manifestation 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:06.440 of that, Like I was letting go of the fact 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:09.520 that I was constantly concerned with like how the things 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:12.400 I were doing were not enough, or they were not 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:14.840 good enough, or I could be a better person, and 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:19.600 constantly evaluating all of my actions in this way that 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:23.320 was really like defeatist, because there was always going to 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:26.600 be some way that I had fallen short of my values. 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:28.520 And then when I realized like, well, I'm just a 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:31.640 human and nobody's perfect, I think I went through this 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:33.640 phase of just like, well, then why don't I just 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:36.200 do whatever I want? Because I'm like you know, and 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:38.320 I feel like that's common to people when they have 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:41.520 an existential crisis or a crisis of faith. It's just like, well, 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:44.640 if the rules are made up and subjective, then how 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.800 about I just feel good? How about I just feel well? Yeah, 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:50.840 And then you find out that so many of the things. 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:53.520 I'm trying to explain this articulately, so forgive me, but 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:55.680 you're more articulate than I will ever be, by the way, 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:58.880 So I just pleased. I'm trying. I'm trying. I'm trying 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.920 really hard. So like now it's not so much as 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:04.760 me letting myself off the hook is just like practicing 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:08.320 compassion for myself that allows me in many ways to 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:11.120 be more compassionate to other people too. But I think 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:16.000 what I had to learn with all of the things 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:18.160 that I was convicted about is that, like I think 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:21.760 I had an ideological belief that I don't know, being sober, 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:25.959 being straight edged, or being a vegan or praying every 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:29.000 morning was like this thing that I did to like 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:34.120 purify and perfect myself. And now it's more like, I 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:39.360 don't want to spend my life with a crippling addiction 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:43.320 because it actually doesn't feel good. Like, sure, it feels 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:47.199 good sometimes, and then most of the time it just 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:51.040 makes you sick and full of regret and unable to 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:52.640 do the things you want to do in your life. 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:56.640 And so it's like instead of coming to these decisions 0:13:56.800 --> 0:13:59.120 about the way I live my life from a point 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:01.719 of like, well, it's the good thing to do, it's 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:04.959 the better thing to do to be sober, it's like 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:09.480 I now know that it makes me feel better, it 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:13.040 improves my quality of life, and I can make decisions 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:16.560 about how to better be in the world that pertain 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:21.760 to like my happiness, which is something that I just didn't, 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:25.000 you know, like, I just didn't include how a decision 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:28.880 affects my own happiness or health very much into my 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:32.200 evaluation of what was morally right and wrong, because a 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:35.720 lot of my conceptualization about doing the right thing involved 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:38.880 self denial and sacrifice. And Yeah, reframing it that way 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:41.720 was really helpful for me. It sounds like a lot 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:43.440 of ways, it was like your decision to go back 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:45.480 to music, I am choosing this. This is what I 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:47.360 was doing before, but now it's because I want to 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:50.320 and not because I think I'm supposed to. Yeah, exactly, 0:14:50.520 --> 0:15:00.920 Totally one of my favorit retracts on the album, and 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:02.880 I'm probably gonna say it's about six different songs because 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:04.840 it's so hard to choose because it's such an amazing 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:08.160 album Relative Fiction, which to my ears, sounded a lot 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:11.880 like that battle between the sort of I guess, for 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:13.960 lack of a better term, public life and and and 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:15.760 and private life. It sounds like that was a really 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:18.360 a beautiful way to to illustrate what what you were 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:22.360 just mentioning. Oh, totally, I and I that song there's 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:24.800 actually a like a rip off or like a slightly 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:27.640 modified John Steinbeck quote. I remember I was talking to 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:31.200 one of my friends about I don't know about how 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:34.400 I was just feeling kind of direction list because for 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:37.760 so long my life had been governed by a very 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:42.080 specific set of principles, and when I started to question 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:45.680 and really interrogate and change those principles, it made me 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:51.040 feel kind of like pessimistic about ever knowing what the 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:53.120 right thing is to do or being like a fully 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:56.520 healed person. And yeah, my friend was just like, there's 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:59.200 this John John Steinbeck quotes like now that you're not perfect, 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:02.400 you can just be good. And man, I don't know 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:05.520 it made it's still it gives me like a visceral 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:10.120 emotional reaction to hear those words. And like, that's if 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:12.640 you had to sum up like relative fiction in a sentence, 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:15.240 that's the song. I mean that quote literally, like is 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:18.840 why I wrote that song, Like thinking about that principle. 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:23.200 That's an incredible line. Yeah, it's just you know, trying 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:27.640 to permit yourself to be imperfect so that you can 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:30.880 get outside of the cycle of self hatred, which actually 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:35.880 makes it harder to be a healthy kind person. You know, 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:40.600 perfections a moving target anyway, Yeah, sure, exactly, It's funny 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:43.760 how how forgiveness is such a crucial tenet of you know, 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:48.520 Christianity faith, but self forgiveness is the hardest thing in 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:51.920 the world. Yeah, And I wonder if people like the 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.080 reason why I think forgiveness is so hard as a 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:59.280 person who has unfortunately made a lot of hurtful mistakes 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:03.160 and thinks a lot about the concept of forgiveness and 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:06.040 if I will ever really feel a certainty of being 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:09.199 forgiven by like my friends or whatever, or by the world. 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:13.840 I think what's so uncomfortable sometimes with people about forgiveness 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:18.480 is that they mistake forgiveness for absolution, right Like, so 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:22.120 I think, and you know, this could change because emotions 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:25.120 or emotions and feelings or feelings. But like if right now, 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:27.920 I feel like I'm at a place where I can 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:32.119 look at this catalog of all the mistakes that I 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:34.600 have made and the I don't want to say the 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:38.480 wrong things, but like the destructive things that I have done, 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:42.679 and I can look them without excusing myself for them, 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:47.720 but still show compassion yourself. Yeah, exactly, It's like I 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:50.959 still have to hold myself accountable, just like you know, 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:54.080 if I forgive somebody else for something that they do. 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:56.520 I still hold them accountable for their actions. And I 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:59.440 think sometimes like accountability and forgiveness get a little money 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:03.040 in people's brains and they're Yeah, the work you do, 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:05.840 I mean, it touches so many people, myself included. I 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:08.040 just I wanted to ask you about your writing process. 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:09.880 I mean, is it like a daily practice for you, 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:13.119 like some people run, some people do do yoga or meditation, 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:14.760 or is it something that you go to when when 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:17.920 you feel inspired and you sit down and go to work. 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:21.520 I've been trying to think of how to describe it, 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:26.320 but like it seems like, especially lyric writing, is an 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:30.720 ongoing practice. Like just in my life, I find myself 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:35.200 trying to let myself be sensitive to and aware of 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:38.720 the poetic or symbolic or meaningful things that happened just 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:42.479 in life or in conversation. And so it's like a 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:47.800 lot of my writing process is just gleaning images from 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:50.480 my life, just from what's happening around me in the 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:53.840 conversations I'm having, Gathering material and then trying to assemble 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:57.919 them into a narrative, playing my instrument and trying to 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:01.080 do not just practicing old songs, but like improvisational and 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:03.760 just kind of fiddling is a daily practice for me, 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:07.080 just because I don't know, I'm I know that I 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:09.840 have an obsessive part of my personality, and so I 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:13.280 try to pick up my instrument and do commit myself 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:16.879 to either writing a song or practicing skills or learning 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:18.600 something I didn't know about. A guitar battle I have 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.359 every day because you know, I want to keep learning 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:25.399 and bettering myself. But songs come together in a much 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:28.480 less structured way, you know, I don't like I know 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:30.560 there's some songwriters that are like, Yeah, I write a 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:32.840 song every day just as practice, and I could never. 0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:36.000 I could never. It would be a dumb, bad song 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:39.440 that I would have to cannibalize and frankenstein back together 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:42.560 as some mother's soul. I read that that you wrote 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:46.399 a thesis on synesthesia, which is something that I believe 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:48.280 that you is something that's a part of your your 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:50.320 writing process. Can you talk a little more about that. 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:53.280 I'm not sure from describing right but basically assigning, I'm 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:55.560 going to get this completely wrong with assigning colors to 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:59.760 sounds and vice versa. Yeah, what's really so cool. This 0:19:59.880 --> 0:20:01.720 is the most on brand thing for me to say 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:04.840 is that I told one person in an interview that, 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:08.600 and then I started having this internal crisis of like 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:13.480 do I really experience sis? Do I experience this phenomenon? 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.560 Because in my thesis, one of the things this is 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:19.560 so like me to be like, is this actually true? 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:22.640 Like is what I'm saying true? Can I verify it? 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:25.879 It's a mental event, So like, no, I can't, But 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:28.040 I don't want to sound like I'm just like making 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:31.760 up stuff. But basically, in a part of the thesis 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:34.280 that I did, it was about syniesthesia, but it was 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:38.959 also about how people there have been like linguists, like 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:43.960 linguistic analysts, who like try to create a parallel, like 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:47.639 a formula parallel between the arrangement of music and like 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:51.600 language and grammar. And while I do believe that music 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:54.560 is a communication method, I think what's special about it 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:57.840 is that, I mean it's purest form it and especially 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:02.479 how I experience it, it can transcend language. Like so 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:05.200 of course, like I'm talking about non lyrical music specifically, 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:08.240 I'm talking about like sounds, not about the poetry that 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:10.439 I lay on top of the sounds that I create. 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:13.480 But there was this entire portion of my thesis where 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:18.520 I was studying, like the research methods of synesthesia, because 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:22.440 just like anything, it's happening inside the mind. So like 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:24.840 anything psychological, it's happening inside the mind. So there's like 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:29.560 virtually no way to recreate or explain another person's experience 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:31.920 except for them telling you. And so there's all these 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:34.560 fields like to like verify that a person is having 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:37.560 a synaesthetic experience versus because I feel like I could 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:40.359 just play, like, I don't know, a sad piano song 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:43.040