Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome the inside the studio on iHeart Radio.
Speaker 1: My name's Jordan runt Dog, But enough about me. My
Speaker 1: guest today is one of my favorite contemporary songwriters. In February,
Speaker 1: she released her new album Little Oblivions, a stunning work
Speaker 1: of emotional bravery, inspired in large part by a crisis
Speaker 1: of faith. The song's chronicle her difficult last few years,
Speaker 1: as she relapsed in the substance abuse and began to
Speaker 1: reconsider her devout Christian beliefs. Both her sobriety and a
Speaker 1: religion formed crucial pillars of her personal and public identity,
Speaker 1: serving as themes for past songs and frequent topics of interviews. Now,
Speaker 1: her relationship to both was radically shifting, leading to a
Speaker 1: period of self reflection and reevaluation. She canceled a tour
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen and returned to her home in Nashville,
Speaker 1: where she reset. She finished out her undergraduate degree at
Speaker 1: Middle Tennessee State, and for a time briefly wondered whether
Speaker 1: she'd ever returned to her former life as a musician. Thankfully,
Speaker 1: she did, and the result was her most compelling work
Speaker 1: to date. Musically, she expands on her acoustic past with
Speaker 1: a full band sound oun playing nearly all of the
Speaker 1: instruments herself. The lyrics tackle the pain of spiritual uncertainty
Speaker 1: with phrases that are self aware and at times self lacerating.
Speaker 1: An exorcism of private shame. I wish you'd hurt me,
Speaker 1: she sings on song and e it's the mercy I
Speaker 1: can't take. In addition to her music, she's one of
Speaker 1: the all time great interviewees. In conversation, she's insightful, warm,
Speaker 1: self deprecating, and eminently fearless. These are the same traits
Speaker 1: that make her music so darn good. I'm so happy
Speaker 1: to welcome Julian Baker. Thank you, Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for taking the time today. I'm so thrilled to speak
Speaker 1: to you. I really appreciate it. Oh of course, it's
Speaker 1: my pleasure. Thank you for having me and taking the
Speaker 1: time to speak with me. It's it's mutual. So many
Speaker 1: things I want to ask you, but I want to
Speaker 1: start with a question that's been imbued with a whole
Speaker 1: new level of meaning in the last year, and that's
Speaker 1: how are you? How are you doing today? You know
Speaker 1: today I'm really good. I got my coffee. It was
Speaker 1: raining this morning, but the sun is coming out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to be happy about the little things.
Speaker 1: I don't know if if there's one thing that this
Speaker 1: last year has taught me, it's like how to focus
Speaker 1: in on and recognize the things that actually do make
Speaker 1: me happy in what I can celebrate, because it seems
Speaker 1: like there's been a deficit of things to celebrate or
Speaker 1: be happy about for a long time. Elements of clarity,
Speaker 1: I say, in the not really having a lot of
Speaker 1: external distractions, I suppose, Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean for
Speaker 1: so much of the last year, for all of us,
Speaker 1: it's been about accepting uncertainty in their lives and kind
Speaker 1: of allowing it to exist without completely crippling us, which
Speaker 1: in a way is a major through line through your
Speaker 1: new record, Little Oblivion's accepting that uncertainty and sort of
Speaker 1: being okay with it. What's that process been like for you?
Speaker 1: Oh man, It's it's been difficult. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: it's taken a lot of work in my own personal
Speaker 1: life too, except that it's healthier to just sit with
Speaker 1: uncertainty or discomfort than to try to medicate or negator
Speaker 1: suage it with whatever. You know, it could be anything,
Speaker 1: substances or like compulsive behaviors or just downright like suppression,
Speaker 1: and uh yeah, I feel a lot more peaceful actually.
Speaker 1: And I think I was really apprehensive about this record
Speaker 1: for the reasons you mentioned, because it does kind of
Speaker 1: touch on kind of touch on. No, it completely concerns
Speaker 1: into in totality of the record is about trying to
Speaker 1: dismantle belief systems and value systems in your life and
Speaker 1: rebuild them from scratch. And I was really apprehensive about
Speaker 1: doing press around this record, but I found the more
Speaker 1: that I talked about it, the more clarity I actually
Speaker 1: have about what needed to be done in my own life. Yeah. Sorry,
Speaker 1: my dog is um crawling around under my desk, So
Speaker 1: if you hear the little like this noise, it's just
Speaker 1: her tail. Though not at all. You and I. You
Speaker 1: and I share something during For for my entire life,
Speaker 1: I have been completely apathetic to animals. And in the
Speaker 1: LA last year a switch went off in me and
Speaker 1: I've become I'm desperate for a dog my apartment and
Speaker 1: let me have one. I've become one of those people
Speaker 1: that actually sees them on the streets and like, you know,
Speaker 1: elbows my girlfriend, Like, oh my god, look at that.
Speaker 1: So no, that's that Z. I got a dog a
Speaker 1: little bit before quarantine, and I don't know what I
Speaker 1: would have done without having a dog. But also like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I was kind of the same way. I wasn't ambivalent
Speaker 1: about animals, but I was just like, cool, they're cute,
Speaker 1: moving on. Yeah, they're cute, moving on. Yeah. And now
Speaker 1: it's like I cannot stop myself from acknowledging every dog
Speaker 1: I see. If I see a dog and we're driving,
Speaker 1: I will interrupt any conversation to be like dog is
Speaker 1: the same thing with my partners, like, oh my god, yeah,
Speaker 1: we've seen like five dogs. You don't have to pour
Speaker 1: them all on to me. But yeah, I get you. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm glad we have that cassion. I feel less alone now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's been such a transform in a few years for
Speaker 1: you and your relationship to a lot of like, as
Speaker 1: you mentioned, crucial emotional and spiritual pillars have changed. Has
Speaker 1: your relationship to music changed at all? Yeah? I think so.
Speaker 1: I mean maybe not necessarily that it's changed, but that
Speaker 1: I don't know, it feels more like a returning, Like
Speaker 1: it felt like there was something that I needed to
Speaker 1: uncover that had become convoluted about music for me because
Speaker 1: of being plunged into the world of being a performer
Speaker 1: with you know, albeit a regular size, small one, Like
Speaker 1: you know, I have this platform and this like public
Speaker 1: awareness and like people are aware of my music and
Speaker 1: follow it. And while in the scheme of things that
Speaker 1: recognition is only mini school, it felt so huge to
Speaker 1: me and it happened very quickly, and music became something
Speaker 1: that I did with the desire to like positively impact
Speaker 1: the world and with an extreme amount of consideration for
Speaker 1: the impact that what I said were in my songs
Speaker 1: you know, would have on a listener. Also, I think,
Speaker 1: you know, just because playing music became for the first
Speaker 1: time in my life, my livelihood, I don't know, there's
Speaker 1: also a lot of like fear tied up in that
Speaker 1: and a risk aversion that comes with feeling that this
Speaker 1: is not only my creative outlet where I where I
Speaker 1: get to experiment and explore and U enquire into my
Speaker 1: own being. It's now what I do so that I
Speaker 1: can have a roof over my head and so that
Speaker 1: I can pay other people in my life so that
Speaker 1: they can live. And that's really like that's a big
Speaker 1: shift to undergo and then I think I just kind
Speaker 1: of glossed over it because touring, the inertia of touring
Speaker 1: is so constant that you're like being propelled into a
Speaker 1: new city, in a new situation, in a new performance
Speaker 1: space literally every day. So yeah, when I took some
Speaker 1: time off of the road, I think it was like
Speaker 1: I a would say this, but it was like riding
Speaker 1: a bicycle slowly and everything just got kind of like
Speaker 1: off balance and wobbly, and I had to stop doing
Speaker 1: what I was doing so I could analyze, like why
Speaker 1: why am I making music in the first place. And
Speaker 1: I think after having some time away from existing purely
Speaker 1: as a as a performer and doing music for an audience,
Speaker 1: I had the gift of perspective where I recognized that
Speaker 1: I was still writing songs even though I thought like,
Speaker 1: maybe no one will hear them. I don't know if
Speaker 1: i'll make another record again, I don't know if I'll
Speaker 1: ever be able to tour again. But I'm still making
Speaker 1: songs because it's something into girl to how I process
Speaker 1: my emotions and how I understand the world around me
Speaker 1: and myself. And I think, I don't know, it's not
Speaker 1: I don't want to say a renewed love for music, Like,
Speaker 1: I don't want to say that I've developed a renewed
Speaker 1: love for music as if I was ever jaded or
Speaker 1: disillusioned with it in the first place, because I've never
Speaker 1: wavered on. The things I've wavered on about music aren't
Speaker 1: whether or not I love playing it, whether or not
Speaker 1: I'm going to pick up an instrument again. It's been like,
Speaker 1: do I think that I am capable of making music
Speaker 1: in the context of being a performer as my job? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So now I think I'm just I'm trying to do
Speaker 1: a better job of separating those things so that I
Speaker 1: can have a healthier relationship with music itself. And it
Speaker 1: must have been so great to step back and then
Speaker 1: choose to get back into music and to actually know like, no,
Speaker 1: this is the thing, this, this is actually something that
Speaker 1: that I want to be involved with. And to know
Speaker 1: that you made that choice must must feel really I
Speaker 1: don't know if empowering is the right word, but must
Speaker 1: really renew your faith in the music. Yeah, empowering is
Speaker 1: totally the right word. I don't know, And I think
Speaker 1: it had a lot to do also with the fact that,
Speaker 1: like I collapsed myself with the identity of being a performer,
Speaker 1: and then that was the sole focus of my life.
Speaker 1: Is like not performing as in like playing a part,
Speaker 1: but performing is in hitting the right notes and wrapping
Speaker 1: your whole. I'd self worth up in that too, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: And then when I realized that, if you know, it
Speaker 1: was this kind of it was a really painful experience
Speaker 1: for like, you know, me to go to really unhealthy
Speaker 1: place and watch everything that I thought, you know, that
Speaker 1: I built up around my life that I guess felt
Speaker 1: like being a successful musician, you know, watching all that
Speaker 1: kind of like go away and going back to school
Speaker 1: and thinking about maybe doing something else for a living
Speaker 1: for a while, Like that was helpful for me to understand,
Speaker 1: like I can make music without putting so much pressure
Speaker 1: on myself as this entity in public space that also
Speaker 1: has to perform. I can just make music because I
Speaker 1: believe that the things that human beings create seeking understanding
Speaker 1: are the artworks they make are ultimately just a piece
Speaker 1: of communication. And that's fine. You can't put that on
Speaker 1: a hierarchical scale of like good music and bad music.
Speaker 1: But I mean, you know, I believe that I'm not
Speaker 1: sure if like hundreds of music publications believe that. But
Speaker 1: you know, I should have said this earlier. The album
Speaker 1: is absolutely incredible. In addition to so many other adjectives,
Speaker 1: it's just such a fear list record. The vulnerability and
Speaker 1: the honesty, it's just so admirable and it just really inspiring.
Speaker 1: I mean, I hope that that's something that you feel. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I mean, releasing this record I was, you know, I've
Speaker 1: already said I was pretty apprehensive about it. But in
Speaker 1: some ways it's been quite liberating to put something out
Speaker 1: that felt I don't know. It felt like a departure
Speaker 1: from my old music for me, but then in the
Speaker 1: grand scheme of things, it's like, no, it really just
Speaker 1: it still sounds like my songwriting. It's just like now
Speaker 1: there's drums. But it did feel very I think maybe
Speaker 1: what was more meaningful to me was the lyrical content
Speaker 1: being so explicit in a way where it was like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, trying to dismantle publicly the ideas that
Speaker 1: maybe people who listen to my music had had about me,
Speaker 1: and trying to unsaddle myself with the identity of being
Speaker 1: a person who practiced the sobriety perfectly, a person who
Speaker 1: ractus is kindness, perfectly a person who's like in any
Speaker 1: way like well put together, and it's like to expose
Speaker 1: those things felt almost relieving to me. You know, there
Speaker 1: was a great quote you gave, and I hate reading
Speaker 1: quotes back because that always sounds like something a prosecutor does.
Speaker 1: But there's an amazing quote I really stuck with me
Speaker 1: is that this record is about letting go of the
Speaker 1: prospect of ever being a fully good person. And I
Speaker 1: I a part of me smiled at that because I thought, cool,
Speaker 1: join the club, Like that's an incredibly high bar to
Speaker 1: to set for oneself, and to to kind of let
Speaker 1: yourself off the hook has got to be liberating as
Speaker 1: a human and certainly as an artist. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think it also like it enables me to focus more,
Speaker 1: like when you see like letting yourself off the hook,
Speaker 1: it is kind of like that. And I think that's
Speaker 1: it's kind of a double edged sword of a revelation
Speaker 1: because I think there is a period in my life,
Speaker 1: especially like throughout the writing of this record, when I
Speaker 1: was really in the trenches of like figuring out sobriety
Speaker 1: again and figuring out faith again. Like there was this
Speaker 1: point I think where I felt the most nihilistic manifestation
Speaker 1: of that, Like I was letting go of the fact
Speaker 1: that I was constantly concerned with like how the things
Speaker 1: I were doing were not enough, or they were not
Speaker 1: good enough, or I could be a better person, and
Speaker 1: constantly evaluating all of my actions in this way that
Speaker 1: was really like defeatist, because there was always going to
Speaker 1: be some way that I had fallen short of my values.
Speaker 1: And then when I realized like, well, I'm just a
Speaker 1: human and nobody's perfect, I think I went through this
Speaker 1: phase of just like, well, then why don't I just
Speaker 1: do whatever I want? Because I'm like you know, and
Speaker 1: I feel like that's common to people when they have
Speaker 1: an existential crisis or a crisis of faith. It's just like, well,
Speaker 1: if the rules are made up and subjective, then how
Speaker 1: about I just feel good? How about I just feel well? Yeah,
Speaker 1: And then you find out that so many of the things.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to explain this articulately, so forgive me, but
Speaker 1: you're more articulate than I will ever be, by the way,
Speaker 1: So I just pleased. I'm trying. I'm trying. I'm trying
Speaker 1: really hard. So like now it's not so much as
Speaker 1: me letting myself off the hook is just like practicing
Speaker 1: compassion for myself that allows me in many ways to
Speaker 1: be more compassionate to other people too. But I think
Speaker 1: what I had to learn with all of the things
Speaker 1: that I was convicted about is that, like I think
Speaker 1: I had an ideological belief that I don't know, being sober,
Speaker 1: being straight edged, or being a vegan or praying every
Speaker 1: morning was like this thing that I did to like
Speaker 1: purify and perfect myself. And now it's more like, I
Speaker 1: don't want to spend my life with a crippling addiction
Speaker 1: because it actually doesn't feel good. Like, sure, it feels
Speaker 1: good sometimes, and then most of the time it just
Speaker 1: makes you sick and full of regret and unable to
Speaker 1: do the things you want to do in your life.
Speaker 1: And so it's like instead of coming to these decisions
Speaker 1: about the way I live my life from a point
Speaker 1: of like, well, it's the good thing to do, it's
Speaker 1: the better thing to do to be sober, it's like
Speaker 1: I now know that it makes me feel better, it
Speaker 1: improves my quality of life, and I can make decisions
Speaker 1: about how to better be in the world that pertain
Speaker 1: to like my happiness, which is something that I just didn't,
Speaker 1: you know, like, I just didn't include how a decision
Speaker 1: affects my own happiness or health very much into my
Speaker 1: evaluation of what was morally right and wrong, because a
Speaker 1: lot of my conceptualization about doing the right thing involved
Speaker 1: self denial and sacrifice. And Yeah, reframing it that way
Speaker 1: was really helpful for me. It sounds like a lot
Speaker 1: of ways, it was like your decision to go back
Speaker 1: to music, I am choosing this. This is what I
Speaker 1: was doing before, but now it's because I want to
Speaker 1: and not because I think I'm supposed to. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: Totally one of my favorit retracts on the album, and
Speaker 1: I'm probably gonna say it's about six different songs because
Speaker 1: it's so hard to choose because it's such an amazing
Speaker 1: album Relative Fiction, which to my ears, sounded a lot
Speaker 1: like that battle between the sort of I guess, for
Speaker 1: lack of a better term, public life and and and
Speaker 1: and private life. It sounds like that was a really
Speaker 1: a beautiful way to to illustrate what what you were
Speaker 1: just mentioning. Oh, totally, I and I that song there's
Speaker 1: actually a like a rip off or like a slightly
Speaker 1: modified John Steinbeck quote. I remember I was talking to
Speaker 1: one of my friends about I don't know about how
Speaker 1: I was just feeling kind of direction list because for
Speaker 1: so long my life had been governed by a very
Speaker 1: specific set of principles, and when I started to question
Speaker 1: and really interrogate and change those principles, it made me
Speaker 1: feel kind of like pessimistic about ever knowing what the
Speaker 1: right thing is to do or being like a fully
Speaker 1: healed person. And yeah, my friend was just like, there's
Speaker 1: this John John Steinbeck quotes like now that you're not perfect,
Speaker 1: you can just be good. And man, I don't know
Speaker 1: it made it's still it gives me like a visceral
Speaker 1: emotional reaction to hear those words. And like, that's if
Speaker 1: you had to sum up like relative fiction in a sentence,
Speaker 1: that's the song. I mean that quote literally, like is
Speaker 1: why I wrote that song, Like thinking about that principle.
Speaker 1: That's an incredible line. Yeah, it's just you know, trying
Speaker 1: to permit yourself to be imperfect so that you can
Speaker 1: get outside of the cycle of self hatred, which actually
Speaker 1: makes it harder to be a healthy kind person. You know,
Speaker 1: perfections a moving target anyway, Yeah, sure, exactly, It's funny
Speaker 1: how how forgiveness is such a crucial tenet of you know,
Speaker 1: Christianity faith, but self forgiveness is the hardest thing in
Speaker 1: the world. Yeah, And I wonder if people like the
Speaker 1: reason why I think forgiveness is so hard as a
Speaker 1: person who has unfortunately made a lot of hurtful mistakes
Speaker 1: and thinks a lot about the concept of forgiveness and
Speaker 1: if I will ever really feel a certainty of being
Speaker 1: forgiven by like my friends or whatever, or by the world.
Speaker 1: I think what's so uncomfortable sometimes with people about forgiveness
Speaker 1: is that they mistake forgiveness for absolution, right Like, so
Speaker 1: I think, and you know, this could change because emotions
Speaker 1: or emotions and feelings or feelings. But like if right now,
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm at a place where I can
Speaker 1: look at this catalog of all the mistakes that I
Speaker 1: have made and the I don't want to say the
Speaker 1: wrong things, but like the destructive things that I have done,
Speaker 1: and I can look them without excusing myself for them,
Speaker 1: but still show compassion yourself. Yeah, exactly, It's like I
Speaker 1: still have to hold myself accountable, just like you know,
Speaker 1: if I forgive somebody else for something that they do.
Speaker 1: I still hold them accountable for their actions. And I
Speaker 1: think sometimes like accountability and forgiveness get a little money
Speaker 1: in people's brains and they're Yeah, the work you do,
Speaker 1: I mean, it touches so many people, myself included. I
Speaker 1: just I wanted to ask you about your writing process.
Speaker 1: I mean, is it like a daily practice for you,
Speaker 1: like some people run, some people do do yoga or meditation,
Speaker 1: or is it something that you go to when when
Speaker 1: you feel inspired and you sit down and go to work.
Speaker 1: I've been trying to think of how to describe it,
Speaker 1: but like it seems like, especially lyric writing, is an
Speaker 1: ongoing practice. Like just in my life, I find myself
Speaker 1: trying to let myself be sensitive to and aware of
Speaker 1: the poetic or symbolic or meaningful things that happened just
Speaker 1: in life or in conversation. And so it's like a
Speaker 1: lot of my writing process is just gleaning images from
Speaker 1: my life, just from what's happening around me in the
Speaker 1: conversations I'm having, Gathering material and then trying to assemble
Speaker 1: them into a narrative, playing my instrument and trying to
Speaker 1: do not just practicing old songs, but like improvisational and
Speaker 1: just kind of fiddling is a daily practice for me,
Speaker 1: just because I don't know, I'm I know that I
Speaker 1: have an obsessive part of my personality, and so I
Speaker 1: try to pick up my instrument and do commit myself
Speaker 1: to either writing a song or practicing skills or learning
Speaker 1: something I didn't know about. A guitar battle I have
Speaker 1: every day because you know, I want to keep learning
Speaker 1: and bettering myself. But songs come together in a much
Speaker 1: less structured way, you know, I don't like I know
Speaker 1: there's some songwriters that are like, Yeah, I write a
Speaker 1: song every day just as practice, and I could never.
Speaker 1: I could never. It would be a dumb, bad song
Speaker 1: that I would have to cannibalize and frankenstein back together
Speaker 1: as some mother's soul. I read that that you wrote
Speaker 1: a thesis on synesthesia, which is something that I believe
Speaker 1: that you is something that's a part of your your
Speaker 1: writing process. Can you talk a little more about that.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure from describing right but basically assigning, I'm
Speaker 1: going to get this completely wrong with assigning colors to
Speaker 1: sounds and vice versa. Yeah, what's really so cool. This
Speaker 1: is the most on brand thing for me to say
Speaker 1: is that I told one person in an interview that,
Speaker 1: and then I started having this internal crisis of like
Speaker 1: do I really experience sis? Do I experience this phenomenon?
Speaker 1: Because in my thesis, one of the things this is
Speaker 1: so like me to be like, is this actually true?
Speaker 1: Like is what I'm saying true? Can I verify it?
Speaker 1: It's a mental event, So like, no, I can't, But
Speaker 1: I don't want to sound like I'm just like making
Speaker 1: up stuff. But basically, in a part of the thesis
Speaker 1: that I did, it was about syniesthesia, but it was
Speaker 1: also about how people there have been like linguists, like
Speaker 1: linguistic analysts, who like try to create a parallel, like
Speaker 1: a formula parallel between the arrangement of music and like
Speaker 1: language and grammar. And while I do believe that music
Speaker 1: is a communication method, I think what's special about it
Speaker 1: is that, I mean it's purest form it and especially
Speaker 1: how I experience it, it can transcend language. Like so
Speaker 1: of course, like I'm talking about non lyrical music specifically,
Speaker 1: I'm talking about like sounds, not about the poetry that
Speaker 1: I lay on top of the sounds that I create.
Speaker 1: But there was this entire portion of my thesis where
Speaker 1: I was studying, like the research methods of synesthesia, because
Speaker 1: just like anything, it's happening inside the mind. So like
Speaker 1: anything psychological, it's happening inside the mind. So there's like
Speaker 1: virtually no way to recreate or explain another person's experience
Speaker 1: except for them telling you. And so there's all these
Speaker 1: fields like to like verify that a person is having
Speaker 1: a synaesthetic experience versus because I feel like I could
Speaker 1: just play, like, I don't know, a sad piano song
Speaker 1: for somebody on the street, and I would be like,
Speaker 1: what color is this song? And they would probably be
Speaker 1: like blue because blue is a color we associate with
Speaker 1: sadness and mournfulness. Or maybe I play them a disco
Speaker 1: track and they're like yellow because yellows color we associate
Speaker 1: with happiness. But yeah, I'm decently confident that that is
Speaker 1: not what's happening with me. That it's not just like
Speaker 1: a collection of like cultural associations between color and sound.
Speaker 1: It's like, man, I don't know, I was listening to
Speaker 1: what song is I listening to the other day? I
Speaker 1: was like, the song's orange. I don't know how to
Speaker 1: tell you why songs just orange. I don't know how
Speaker 1: to explain it. Yeah, it's just like music, especially the
Speaker 1: instrumental music, puts me in a very meditative place, and
Speaker 1: I experienced it in my body in a very vivid way.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't know. I just feel like there's
Speaker 1: there's almost this tactile there's like texture to sound, and
Speaker 1: especially during quarantine. And you know, we were just talking
Speaker 1: about my the shift in my relationship to music. It's
Speaker 1: like I have been, you know, past when I thought
Speaker 1: I was going to return to touring after taking some
Speaker 1: time off, it's now been an additional year of being
Speaker 1: at home and not really being in a performance space
Speaker 1: and playing my instrument every day, practicing piano or even
Speaker 1: like trying to teach myself more production stuff and like
Speaker 1: how to use oppression and distortion and EQ things like.
Speaker 1: That's all a very visual experience to me. Like, I
Speaker 1: don't know how to describe it. It's so difficult. It
Speaker 1: makes total sense to me. Sound waves and light is
Speaker 1: waves too. It's just all it seems like it's all
Speaker 1: about just perceiving and and letting it come to you.
Speaker 1: I guess, you know. I read this book called Born
Speaker 1: on a Blue Day about this guy who memorized he
Speaker 1: like at one time held the world record for memorizing
Speaker 1: the most numbers of pie. There was this passage I
Speaker 1: remember reading it when I was like eleven. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I just used to pick up whatever book in Bars
Speaker 1: and Noble and be like, sure, I'll read this. So
Speaker 1: I picked up this memoir knowing nothing about it, and
Speaker 1: I was like eleven or twelve, and there's this part
Speaker 1: where he's describing how he's reciting the numbers of pie,
Speaker 1: and then it all kind of like blends into a landscape.
Speaker 1: I don't know, imagine like a video game moving or
Speaker 1: like a note reel as you're moving through, but then
Speaker 1: it's like, what's happening? I was going to be like,
Speaker 1: imagine if Windows Visualizer was just happening in your head
Speaker 1: all the time. Do you remember that? Yeah? I forgot
Speaker 1: about that? Wow? Yeah yeah yeah. Do you do that
Speaker 1: for like hours? Like I would just download stuff off
Speaker 1: iTunes and then sit there with Windows Visualizer open. I
Speaker 1: used to see that all the time, used to put
Speaker 1: like pet sounds on or something and just like like yeah,
Speaker 1: yeah yeah. And what's interesting for me is like I
Speaker 1: would always feel like this level of disconnect with because
Speaker 1: I didn't have any agency over the images. But I've
Speaker 1: like it happens, especially when I play piano, where if
Speaker 1: I just like find myself in a key or in
Speaker 1: a mode that I'm super comfortable in, and I get
Speaker 1: into the like flow state of intuitive playing past the
Speaker 1: really like calculated aware part. It's like, yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's like watching a landscape go buy from a train
Speaker 1: when just like watching the sound change, it's really beautiful.
Speaker 1: I wish I could explain it better, but yeah, probably
Speaker 1: sound like a crazy person. I'm not like literally hallucinating.
Speaker 1: I just like, yeah, at the end of this, I'm
Speaker 1: just like, and there's acid involved. That was a joke
Speaker 1: that ayahuasca helps. Yeah, the ayahuaska really helps, Uh, you
Speaker 1: get in the synesthesia zone. No, I'm I'm terrified to ever.
Speaker 1: My brand of substance abuse is always the numbing and
Speaker 1: the dampening things that kind of like restrict feeling and emotion.
Speaker 1: I'm terrified of I could never let go, dude, I
Speaker 1: know it's so crazy. I'm like, it's already dark enough
Speaker 1: in there as it is. I don't want to like explore,
Speaker 1: like I don't want to expand the darkness. I just
Speaker 1: like not I'm good. I'm good with where I'm at
Speaker 1: right now. It's all I can do. God. That's so,
Speaker 1: that's why I love song and E because to me,
Speaker 1: that sentiment really resonated with me because it was like
Speaker 1: wishing that anxiety or pain could be on something on
Speaker 1: the outside. Because I feel like I'm happiest when there's
Speaker 1: a problem that I can point to and and solve,
Speaker 1: because as soon as that's out, it's like, oh man,
Speaker 1: it's just me. Oh oh, it turns out that it's
Speaker 1: really just my brain. Yeah, Like it's difficult, and you
Speaker 1: know that song is like it's about being in a
Speaker 1: relationship that is difficult, and how it's almost more painful
Speaker 1: to deal with hurt or try to find a place
Speaker 1: for it when the two parties or however many parties
Speaker 1: are involved in your family or your love affair or whatever.
Speaker 1: It's almost more painful when you understand that those two
Speaker 1: parties aren't deliberately hurting each other. Like it's almost more
Speaker 1: painful because then there's nowhere to put anger, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like you feel guilty about it too.
Speaker 1: Then you're angry and guilty. You feel guilty about resent
Speaker 1: resenting a person that is not hurting you on purpose.
Speaker 1: And then there's also like this moral hierarchy of like
Speaker 1: who is giving and receiving forgiveness that can get really uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: And yeah, that song is me just being like, in
Speaker 1: the pettiest way to explain it, it's like when you
Speaker 1: are angry at somebody and then they're nice to you,
Speaker 1: and you're like, you just have the decency to be
Speaker 1: means me, so we can both just be shitty, Like
Speaker 1: why don't you I want a reason to be shitty
Speaker 1: to you and you're not giving me one. But I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess that's that's the funny way to describe it.
Speaker 1: But then it's so like, I don't know, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's it's challenging to see the limits to your own kindness.
Speaker 1: And like, in another sense too, it's like I wrote
Speaker 1: that song at a time where I was like, I
Speaker 1: just wish that everybody would go ahead and accept that
Speaker 1: I'm not good, so that I can stop having this
Speaker 1: expectation hovering around me for me to be better, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? There is a responsibility that comes
Speaker 1: with patients and forgiveness, and when your friends don't alienate
Speaker 1: you and they won't and they continue giving you mercy
Speaker 1: and graciousness that then it's like there's the obligation to
Speaker 1: show up for that relationship still, and when you feel
Speaker 1: like getting better or being emotionally available or even just
Speaker 1: mentally stable is not something possible for you in the
Speaker 1: near future, like I did, it's sad for your friends
Speaker 1: to keep for giving you because it's like you know them,
Speaker 1: I'm sure, oh no, totally, but it's like it's it's
Speaker 1: so much different, I think, And there's a lot of
Speaker 1: like shame wound up in that. You know, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of shame in the feeling of wanting to get better,
Speaker 1: knowing almost certainly you're going to fail a bunch of
Speaker 1: more times before you're better, and wishing that instead of
Speaker 1: sticking around and being a witness to self destruction and
Speaker 1: pain and causing themselves pain, that your friends would just
Speaker 1: go away. Like I don't know. That sounds very like
Speaker 1: I was imagining myself as like Quasimodo, like hiding in
Speaker 1: a cave. But like that's how it gets. That's how
Speaker 1: it gets when you feel like you're so deep down
Speaker 1: into something that you even you can't control it, and
Speaker 1: you don't see a way out. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I guess I'm just going to go chain myself to
Speaker 1: a wall because I'm going to do something destructive. And
Speaker 1: I wish you wouldn't come keep trying to hang out
Speaker 1: with me, because I know for a fact I'm going
Speaker 1: to hurt you, and it hurts me to hurt you.
Speaker 1: But I also can't stop this cycle of self destruction.
Speaker 1: I'm in Yeah. Sorry, we were laughing a minute ago,
Speaker 1: and then I read it all in the same way
Speaker 1: that I was. I was thanking you for your lyrics.
Speaker 1: I thank you for trusting me right now, for for
Speaker 1: going to this place. And I my question is, and
Speaker 1: maybe it doesn't totally relate, but you know, I think
Speaker 1: that that anyone with a creative impulse puts what they
Speaker 1: make out there with the the hope on some level
Speaker 1: of getting some kind of response to it. With that
Speaker 1: admired What is the best thing that a fan could
Speaker 1: say to you? What? What would you hope that they
Speaker 1: would say, Not somebody who you know is looking to
Speaker 1: you to set an example or anything like that, but
Speaker 1: just somebody who really loves what you do, Like, what
Speaker 1: would you love for them to say that would make
Speaker 1: it feel worth it. There's there's a really emotional answer
Speaker 1: and then like a silly answer. I'm gonna give you
Speaker 1: the silly answerer first. I was jogging the other day
Speaker 1: and I jogged by this guy and without stopping, he
Speaker 1: just goes, love your music, and they just kept ning
Speaker 1: and I was like, that's the perfect that's the perfect interaction,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Hey, your music helps me
Speaker 1: not kill myself. And then I'm just like, wow, I
Speaker 1: feel like that's not what my music did. That's probably
Speaker 1: something you did for yourself. But it's cool for you
Speaker 1: to tell me that, just like you know, that happens
Speaker 1: to me rarely, but stuff like that does happen, and
Speaker 1: sometimes I'm just like, ah, Honestly, the majority of people
Speaker 1: that I meet at shows, and it's been a while
Speaker 1: since I've been out at the merch table like talking
Speaker 1: to people after shows, but the majority of people that
Speaker 1: I meet are really genuine. They're just like, hey, your
Speaker 1: music means a lot. You know. It's usually after a show,
Speaker 1: so it's like people that had a previous awareness of
Speaker 1: like who I was because they bought tickets to this gig.
Speaker 1: And I don't know, like every once in a while
Speaker 1: somebody will just be like, hey, like your music means
Speaker 1: a lot to me. I grew up in church, I
Speaker 1: struggled with addiction or whatever, and I feel like just
Speaker 1: those are the kinds of things that may put me
Speaker 1: more at ease with sharing the parts of myself, especially
Speaker 1: on this record that I'm uncomfortable with, because the reward
Speaker 1: for me for being honest, for making as true a
Speaker 1: testament is I'm capable of making too my lived human experience.
Speaker 1: The reward for that is having somebody feel understood. I
Speaker 1: think you know I said this earlier, Like fundamentally, I
Speaker 1: think music is a communication tool. It's sure it's entertaining
Speaker 1: or whatever, and you know it's couched in a consumerist
Speaker 1: realm because that's how we listen to music and buy
Speaker 1: it or subscribe to Spotify or whatever. But when you die,
Speaker 1: all music back. Especially when you think about like the
Speaker 1: function of music in civilizations, like throughout history, it's a
Speaker 1: communication tool. It's something that's transmitting information. Like I don't know,
Speaker 1: people used to sing songs because the sung voice goes
Speaker 1: farther than those spoken voice and like it hurts you
Speaker 1: to scream, So singing is like a means to an
Speaker 1: end of communicating with people beautifully and seeking mutual understanding.
Speaker 1: And if I can ever ever establish mutual understanding between
Speaker 1: or the feeling of understanding with the person between myself
Speaker 1: or my songs and them were between them and another
Speaker 1: person who likes my music, then that is the most
Speaker 1: valuable thing I think I can ever accomplish with my music.
Speaker 1: That's the most beautiful, articulate response I could have ever
Speaker 1: imagined to that question. Thank you for that. That's and
Speaker 1: you're right, I mean, the mystery of music is something
Speaker 1: that's just so fascinating me because I mean, you you
Speaker 1: find primitive instruments in it from periods of history. But
Speaker 1: we were just struggling to eat, you know. I mean,
Speaker 1: this was something that was obviously a priority. It wasn't
Speaker 1: something that was just a luxury, and this was something
Speaker 1: that that we needed. And that's so interesting the man totally,
Speaker 1: I mean, and that's why I think I've been thinking
Speaker 1: about this a lot with this record, because I have
Speaker 1: a lot of after you know, it's like we were
Speaker 1: talking earlier about, you know, being a performer and being
Speaker 1: so obsessed with the perfectionist element of not only like
Speaker 1: hitting all the right notes and delivering an immaculate performance,
Speaker 1: but also like saying the right and true thing. It's
Speaker 1: like understanding that music is woven into the fabric of
Speaker 1: humanity helps me remove the fear of ridicule or dislike
Speaker 1: of my music. I've always I mean, it's like I
Speaker 1: have never in my life been like, yeah, probably everybody's
Speaker 1: going to like my music. Now people don't. Like tons
Speaker 1: of people don't like my music. That's fine if I
Speaker 1: if I weren't fine with that, I could not have
Speaker 1: been a professional musician for more than a day. But
Speaker 1: like I think sometimes I just like everybody, I am
Speaker 1: sensitive to dgment and I want to offer the best
Speaker 1: that I can into this world. But what makes music?
Speaker 1: And this is why my friends make fun of me,
Speaker 1: because it's like I'll find a way to like pretty
Speaker 1: much everything, even if it's like bad they don't like it,
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know. It's like I'm the opposite
Speaker 1: of the Devil's advocate, always trying to be like there's
Speaker 1: a good thing in here, but um yeah. Like music
Speaker 1: is valuable because it fulfills the need to create music
Speaker 1: to communicate music. Music is valuable because it is something
Speaker 1: that another person has issued into this world to contribute
Speaker 1: to the giant human discourse that is always taking place
Speaker 1: through art. It's not valuable because it's better or worse
Speaker 1: than or because it's more or less a work of
Speaker 1: musical genius, you know, Like I don't know that's why
Speaker 1: I value music in the first place. And then so
Speaker 1: I've gotten a lot less precious with people, you know,
Speaker 1: my music and people's opinions of my music, because I
Speaker 1: just I don't know, I love it so much. It
Speaker 1: sounds really corny to just be like, I love music.
Speaker 1: Music is my life. It's like a hot topic teacher.
Speaker 1: But it's true. It's true. I love music so much.
Speaker 1: It's not corny. If it's true. Yeah, it can or rather,
Speaker 1: it can be corny and true both and not either.
Speaker 1: Or my friends, it can be corny and true. My
Speaker 1: music is corny as hell. I have some I have
Speaker 1: some really corny lines. I'll admit it's not always corny,
Speaker 1: but it can get a little schmaltzy, and it's like, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: corny stuff is true. Trite things are cliches. Cliches are
Speaker 1: cliches for a reason, you know what I mean. Like,
Speaker 1: I appreciate so much people who are willing to draw
Speaker 1: upon the the material of folk tradition, and are willing
Speaker 1: to say things that have already been said because it's
Speaker 1: worth saying them again. There's so many artists like that
Speaker 1: are just making songs that I guess you could call
Speaker 1: They could either be derivative, or they could be an
Speaker 1: homage to a style, or they could be you know,
Speaker 1: when you play like a folk standard or a jazz standard,
Speaker 1: you're trying to be true to the style. Or when
Speaker 1: you write a blues song, the lyrical content often takes
Speaker 1: on like a very specific style, right, So like it's fine,
Speaker 1: It's just like it's just I just said music wasn't
Speaker 1: like language, but it is really like a dialect or
Speaker 1: like an idiolect. Wow, I could talk about this for
Speaker 1: a real I be careful because I wrote eight thousand
Speaker 1: words about this for just my advisor. Can you I
Speaker 1: don't what bro okay? I remember I was like I
Speaker 1: sent him like a seventy d word draft and I
Speaker 1: was like Dr Kid's like I don't know if I'm
Speaker 1: on the right track, Like I don't know this was
Speaker 1: an independent study. It could he was literally like right
Speaker 1: about he was like right about whatever. And then I
Speaker 1: wrote eight thousand words of like meticulously researched but also
Speaker 1: somehow like really hair brained, um chaotic uh theories about
Speaker 1: music and language. And I just remember sending him this
Speaker 1: like long PDF and him getting an email back that said,
Speaker 1: don't make it too hard on yourself, sit from my iPhone.
Speaker 1: And I was just like, bro, no, it wasn't even
Speaker 1: knife in my heart. It was like so funny because
Speaker 1: this guy is just like opening up a frantic students
Speaker 1: email on his iPhone and being like, please stop worrying
Speaker 1: about it, Please don't put yourself through this. Meanwhile, I'm
Speaker 1: like crouched over micro film or whatever. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 1: It's I don't use micro film, but it was a
Speaker 1: funnier image if I was like anyway, I'll yeah, beautiful
Speaker 1: mind style. There's like I was gonna say, y'are the
Speaker 1: it gets Yeah, I don't know, I'll um if you
Speaker 1: maybe I'll make the PDF like free somewhere so if anybody, dude, so,
Speaker 1: But it's super incoherent. I can't even describe its dumb.
Speaker 1: It's like house of leaves, but my brain about music
Speaker 1: that's so cool. Come on, all right, maybe maybe I'll
Speaker 1: edit it down a little bit more. I'll get one
Speaker 1: of my um grad student friends to polish it up
Speaker 1: a little bit. Preparing to talk to you, I read
Speaker 1: probably a couple of dozen interviews that you give it
Speaker 1: in the care that you give to all your responses
Speaker 1: is just so apparent, and in all of your interviews.
Speaker 1: I just want to thank you for that. It's so
Speaker 1: it's so appreciated. I mean, have you ever learned something
Speaker 1: about yourself? Reading any of these profiles back, like seeing
Speaker 1: other people's impressions actually been helpful for you, I would
Speaker 1: say yes, I wish I weren't because this is about
Speaker 1: to make me sound so narcissistic. And you know what,
Speaker 1: maybe it is. Maybe there's an element of the human
Speaker 1: mind that is just predisposed towards narcissism because we're the
Speaker 1: only consciousness in our head right, so like it's just
Speaker 1: us holiday long thinking about the protagonist being the protagonist
Speaker 1: of our own life. I read like every single one
Speaker 1: back to myself because and I it's a huge compliment
Speaker 1: for you to tell me that. I that it comes
Speaker 1: across as if I'm like very caring um and attentive
Speaker 1: with my words, because that's what I mean. There's a
Speaker 1: limit to how much any human can understand another human being, right,
Speaker 1: limit to the empathy, well, a limit to the empathy.
Speaker 1: But also just like I can't take what's in my
Speaker 1: brain and put it in your brain and have you
Speaker 1: understand it like a thumb drive. Yeah, exactly, there's no
Speaker 1: I can't vulcan mind mild you to understand. Yeah. But
Speaker 1: so like I do think it is a really worthy
Speaker 1: goal for me to try to make communication as clear
Speaker 1: as possible, especially like one of the reasons why I
Speaker 1: did I keep coming back to this dumb thesis, but
Speaker 1: like one of the reasons why I chose to do
Speaker 1: study of because music is so much of a refuge
Speaker 1: from language. To me, when you think about the idea
Speaker 1: that whenever you're going into a discussion or a paper
Speaker 1: or like a seminar, you need to define the terms
Speaker 1: that you're using. But like, we live in a world
Speaker 1: where because of this like accelerated, because of the way
Speaker 1: that changes in language are accelerated through like social media,
Speaker 1: or through our constant availability and communication, there's virtually no
Speaker 1: way to be sure that you are defining the terms correctly,
Speaker 1: or that somebody is interpreting what you mean and all
Speaker 1: the different like connotations and subtexts of your word choice.
Speaker 1: The dude, Yeah, it's like some flower bear stuff, like
Speaker 1: let's soul much juiced. I don't think that somebody in
Speaker 1: French class is going to be like that was horrible.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's why it's important to me to find
Speaker 1: like the best way to say a thing, because understanding
Speaker 1: is like the most fundamental human need, like to be understood.
Speaker 1: And man, when you asked me, like, have I ever
Speaker 1: learned anything about myself from reading interviews back or listening
Speaker 1: to podcast back or something, Yeah, I've learned I'm super
Speaker 1: neurotic every time every time I read back. No, I'm
Speaker 1: just I well in that. You know, I said that humorously.
Speaker 1: But what I've learned is that, like I do this
Speaker 1: with so many things too, I like make it way
Speaker 1: more complicated than it has to be. Like sometimes I
Speaker 1: feel like me being hyper aware and concerned with expressing
Speaker 1: myself clearly in language actually makes it harder to have
Speaker 1: a conversation for like for me and also for the
Speaker 1: other person because they have to sit through me giving
Speaker 1: like a ten minute preamble to every question I answer.
Speaker 1: It's like got to be exhausting. Well, after that beautiful
Speaker 1: discussion of communication and language, I'm gonna end with a
Speaker 1: kind of poorly phrased question, which is what is next
Speaker 1: for you? What? What do you have? You got this
Speaker 1: this amazing record out, hopefully we'll be able to get
Speaker 1: on the road and here you play it live soon.
Speaker 1: But but what do you work on next? What are
Speaker 1: you looking forward to? I'm looking forward to going back
Speaker 1: on the road. And you know, it's this kind of
Speaker 1: like grass is always greener thing with musicians because it's
Speaker 1: so easy. It's like the national pastime of touring to
Speaker 1: complain about tour, right, all you ever do. I'm still
Speaker 1: in a group chat. I have not played a show
Speaker 1: in like almost two years, and I'm still in a
Speaker 1: group chat with the people I was touring with two
Speaker 1: years ago, being like, remember how miss Like I don't
Speaker 1: know it's so, but I I do miss it. And
Speaker 1: I miss because music is so communication based. To me,
Speaker 1: I missed the physical act of exchange that happens in
Speaker 1: a live show like to night I think actually is
Speaker 1: like when the album really stream happens. Um And I
Speaker 1: was so grateful to play with my friends and my
Speaker 1: my sweet boys Matt and Cal and uh noah, but
Speaker 1: it felt a little sterile. And so I'm just I'm
Speaker 1: I'm excited to be back in the land of touring,
Speaker 1: and I'm excited to see shows again, like honestly, everybody
Speaker 1: and interviews and like talking to other musicians, the question
Speaker 1: is always like, oh, I can't wait to play a show,
Speaker 1: But honestly, dude, like right before Quarantine happened, when I
Speaker 1: had taken a whole bunch of time off and I
Speaker 1: wasn't touring, I wasn't performing, I wasn't rehearsing for anything,
Speaker 1: doing any interviews. I would go to like three shows
Speaker 1: a week. I would just go see bands like by myself.
Speaker 1: And I used to never do that, but then I
Speaker 1: realized it's such a freaking power move to just stand
Speaker 1: there with just you just you know. And I just
Speaker 1: went because I wanted to put some music in front
Speaker 1: of my face, and I wanted to be taken somewhere else,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to be on the receive being end
Speaker 1: and be like, you know, to use a churchy term
Speaker 1: like fed by that. So I straight up just can't
Speaker 1: wait until there are shows again. I'm gonna go see
Speaker 1: like every band. It's gonna be great, and I'll you know,
Speaker 1: I'll spend all my money on tickets and yeah, but
Speaker 1: bring it on. Julian, thank you so much. I guess
Speaker 1: there's only one thing I've left to say, and I
Speaker 1: want you to pretend I'm jogging right now. Love you music,
Speaker 1: Thank you, yeah, no, thank you for a wonderful conversation.
Speaker 1: It was actually enjoyable. That's the best thing I can hear.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. It was seriously. We hope you enjoyed
Speaker 1: this episode of Inside the Studio, a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. For more episodes of Inside the Studio or
Speaker 1: other fantastic shows, check out the I Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts
Speaker 1: by