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Speaker 1: This Paul is from a correction facility, and it's subject

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Speaker 1: to monitoring and recording contactly elevenarisma.

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Speaker 2: Here. And it hasn't been.

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Speaker 3: Easy one hundred years.

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Speaker 4: That's man.

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Speaker 3: I'm a kid. I didn't do anything, you know, and uh,

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Speaker 3: you know that was a that was real painful, man,

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Speaker 3: you know, because my life was discarded as if you know,

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Speaker 3: like I was a piece of trash or something, you know,

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Speaker 3: one hundred years and I had dreams and I wanted

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Speaker 3: to do things. I wouldn't committing crimes.

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Speaker 4: You know. I was a very good young man.

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Speaker 2: That is what happens in so many cases. The cops

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Speaker 2: have a hunch, because they're so smart at the scene,

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Speaker 2: they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch,

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Speaker 2: they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off

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Speaker 2: marching in the wrong direction. And that happens in so

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Speaker 2: many of these wrongful convictions.

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Speaker 1: The opening the cell door and I'll walk down stave

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Speaker 1: and I actually walked downstairs to be outside. It felt

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Speaker 1: very strange to be, like I said, to be walking

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Speaker 1: without no shackles on my feet. I thought it was

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Speaker 1: a dream. But then again, it wasn't a dream.

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Speaker 4: This is a wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 5: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm that's me.

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Speaker 5: I'm your host, and today we have a very special

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Speaker 5: and unusual episode featuring the one and only John Grisham.

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Speaker 4: John, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Delighted to be here.

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Speaker 5: So, John, I want to talk to you about this

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Speaker 5: incredible TV series I just watched on Netflix, The Innocent Man,

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Speaker 5: which is based on the book by the same name

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Speaker 5: that you wrote several years ago, and it for anyone

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Speaker 5: who hasn't watched it, I highly recommend it because it

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Speaker 5: just rocked my world. How did you get involved in

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Speaker 5: this case in the first place, the case of Ron

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Speaker 5: Williamson and Dennis Fritz.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, by the way, thanks for having me. Delighted to

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Speaker 2: be here, look forward to it. And we've served together

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Speaker 2: on the board of the Innisis Project for probably ten

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Speaker 2: years now, right, yeah, quite a while, go way back.

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Speaker 2: I'm on that board because I wrote this book. And

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Speaker 2: I wrote this book because I saw an obituary in

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Speaker 2: the New York Times in December of two thousand and

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Speaker 2: four for a guy named Ron Williamson who had just

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Speaker 2: died obviously in Oklahoma, and he was my age, my

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Speaker 2: same background, everything, and he had come within five days

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Speaker 2: of being executed in Oklahoma for a crime for murder

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Speaker 2: he did not commit. And the obituary was fascinating. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I love New York Times obituaries because well, they don't

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Speaker 2: write about boring people really well, and they write about

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Speaker 2: people these fantastic stories of people I've you've never heard of,

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Speaker 2: and uh so I've always check out the Times obituaries,

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Speaker 2: but normally there are people in New York. But Ron's

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Speaker 2: story was, uh it just captured my imagination. And but

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Speaker 2: by the time the day was over, I had talked

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Speaker 2: to both of his sisters, one in Tulsa, one in Dallas,

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Speaker 2: and I said, hey, I'm gonna I'm going to write

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Speaker 2: this book, and they said whatever, and one thing led

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Speaker 2: to another. I took off to Oklahoma to start digging,

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Speaker 2: and I had no idea what I was doing. I

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Speaker 2: I'm not a journalist, I'm not trained in you know,

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Speaker 2: that type of work, and I had no idea how

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Speaker 2: to go about telling that a real story.

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Speaker 5: And this is your only nonfiction book. And it's interesting

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Speaker 5: because there's that classic adage the truth is changed than fiction.

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Speaker 5: I think you spent your life as probably the most

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Speaker 5: you know, prolific crime novelist, maybe ever right, and and

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Speaker 5: coming up with these stores. It's what you do, dreaming

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Speaker 5: these stories up literally, But then then you bump into

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Speaker 5: this one and it's beyond anything that you probably could

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Speaker 5: have dreamed up, right, I mean, it's interesting. On the

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Speaker 5: trailer for the Netflix show, I heard you say if

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Speaker 5: you wrote this, nobody would believe it, right.

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Speaker 2: That's true with a lot of these innocent stories. As

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Speaker 2: I have come to know over the past dozen years,

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Speaker 2: the facts are so incredible that first of all, I

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Speaker 2: couldn't dream these things up. I couldn't create these these

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Speaker 2: these cases because nobody can. There's so remarkably unbelievable. And

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Speaker 2: if you did, if you try to pass this off

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Speaker 2: as in a novel, it's not gonna work. A novel

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Speaker 2: has to be plausible. This story can be can be

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Speaker 2: fiction and what you know, it's it's it can be

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Speaker 2: science fiction, can be you know, real, you know, all

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Speaker 2: kinds of different genres of fiction, but it has to be.

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Speaker 2: There has to be a level of plausibility in the

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Speaker 2: story to make it work. Some of the cases we

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Speaker 2: deal with in the innocence world are hard to believe,

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Speaker 2: impossible to believe almost some of the factual scenario in

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Speaker 2: the case in Oklahoma, the Ron Williamson case. The murder

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Speaker 2: itself was easy to believe because it was a horrible

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Speaker 2: crime and those happen all the time. But what happened

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Speaker 2: after that, and how he was railroaded and convicted in

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Speaker 2: Ada is just a really remarkable story in the once

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Speaker 2: I started digging out, I couldn't stop.

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Speaker 5: It is a remarkable story, and in so many ways

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Speaker 5: and on so many different levels, the victim in this case,

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Speaker 5: Debbie Sue Carter, is it's a tragic. All these cases

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Speaker 5: are tragic, but in hers, especially as a father, it's

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Speaker 5: just such a horrific circumstance, which speaks to what we're

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Speaker 5: talking about right now, because in her case, Debbie Sue

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Speaker 5: Carter was raped and murdered and tortured. Her killer made

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Speaker 5: sure that she suffered agonizing, an agonizing death, And what

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Speaker 5: that speaks to is the injustice that's done to everyone,

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Speaker 5: her family, her memory, and everyone else when the wrong

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Speaker 5: person is convicted. But also what boggles my mind, John,

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Speaker 5: is that in a community, especially a small community like Ada,

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Speaker 5: you would think that even if an authority figure, a

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Speaker 5: police detective or whatever they had an an investigator was

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Speaker 5: so sort of morally bankrupt that they didn't mind, didn't

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Speaker 5: lose a wink of sleep convicting an innocent guy. By definition,

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Speaker 5: they were allowing this sick, twisted, psychotic individual who did

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Speaker 5: these terrible, terrible things to w su Carter to remain free.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they knew him.

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Speaker 4: They knew him.

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Speaker 2: He was a local boy. He grew up there. He

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Speaker 2: went to hoschool with Debbie. That's how he got an apartment.

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Speaker 2: He was the last person seen alive with her when

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Speaker 2: she was in a honky TNK late at night as

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Speaker 2: she was leaving, he was at her car. They were

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Speaker 2: arguing and she sort of shoved him away and got

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Speaker 2: in the car and she drove off, and there were

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Speaker 2: witnesses to that, and the police knew it. And a

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Speaker 2: few hours later he knocked on her apartment and she

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Speaker 2: let him in because she knew him. She didn't I

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Speaker 2: don't think she liked him, but wanted to be with him.

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Speaker 2: But because they were acquainted going to school together, he

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Speaker 2: had the entree, the ability to get into her apartment.

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Speaker 2: And once he did, you know, it was a bad night.

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Speaker 2: But again the police did not did not pursue him

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Speaker 2: the obvious person. For years, years and years of the

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Speaker 2: murder was unsolved. The cops were thoroughly incompetent, and at

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Speaker 2: the crime scene. The crime scene was horrendous because it

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Speaker 2: was a terrible killing. And he hung around and he

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Speaker 2: wrote messages with her blood on the wall and wrote

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Speaker 2: messages on the kitchen table with a bottle of ketchup,

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Speaker 2: and there was just a horrible thing. He stayed there

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Speaker 2: for a long time, trying to devise a way to

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Speaker 2: deflect or point to blame in somebody else, and anyway,

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Speaker 2: he was there for a long time. So it was

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Speaker 2: a horrific scene. And these two Keystone cops who are

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Speaker 2: on the scene decide, because it's so violent and it's

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Speaker 2: so bloody, it had to be the work of two people. Okay,

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Speaker 2: that was that decision. Hey, it's got to be two people.

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Speaker 2: We had two defendants here. And that is what happens

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Speaker 2: in so many cases. The cops have a hunch, because

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Speaker 2: they're so smart at the scene, they have a hunch,

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Speaker 2: and once they act on that hunch, they sort of

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Speaker 2: developed tunnel vision and they take off marching in the

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Speaker 2: wrong direction. And that happens in so many of these

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Speaker 2: wrongful convictions.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, in this case, it's fair to say that this

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Speaker 5: case actually came with instructions which were ignored and they

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Speaker 5: didn't go after the actual killer. I'm forgetting his name,

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Speaker 5: Glenn Gore. Glenn Gore, Right, what a name.

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Speaker 4: Right, He's in Gore House, Like.

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Speaker 2: He's serving life with no parole in Oklahoma, convicted by

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Speaker 2: the jury in Ada many years too late.

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Speaker 5: Right, I mean, talk about I mean, what an ironic

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Speaker 5: thing that the guy's name would be Glenn Gore. Like

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Speaker 5: I said, more instructions as if they were coming from

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Speaker 5: it and it was a local criminal. He had a record,

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Speaker 5: He was a bad dude. The cops were doing for drugs.

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Speaker 5: He was a rough family that I mean, he was

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Speaker 5: well known to the police, and they still didn't pursue him.

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Speaker 5: They didn't prosecute him until they actually had to write.

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Speaker 5: It became you know, it became impossible for them to

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Speaker 5: continue to deflect the blame from him. They sort of

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Speaker 5: and I've seen this in other cases, they sort of

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Speaker 5: protected him, right, which is you know, really hard to

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Speaker 5: process as to you know, I mean, I grew up

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Speaker 5: like most people, you know, respecting the uniform and you know, really,

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Speaker 5: I think we all played cops like when we were kids,

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Speaker 5: and you know, and I still do. I mean, I

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Speaker 5: still I am a person who believes in law and order,

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Speaker 5: and I uh, you know, I have a lot of

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Speaker 5: respect for most of the people in the criminal justice system.

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Speaker 5: But when you get bad actors like these guys, the

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Speaker 5: damage that they can inflict is enormous.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how bad they were, it's obvious how

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Speaker 2: incompetent they were. Uh, you know, there was some allegations

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Speaker 2: that these guys, there's some of the some of the

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Speaker 2: some of the cops there were later convicted of selling drugs,

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Speaker 2: and there was some evidence that Gore was selling drugs

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Speaker 2: and the good Gore was selling drugs with the cops,

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Speaker 2: and you know, there was never really a clear uh

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Speaker 2: path to prove that he was with the cops obviously

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Speaker 2: knew him. Some of the cops were shady, but still

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Speaker 2: just to sheer incompetence of not investigating the two league

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Speaker 2: cops in the case. I don't think any history with

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Speaker 2: drug dealing or whatever. They were pretty you know, just

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Speaker 2: a couple of stand up guys, uh, doing their best.

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Speaker 2: But the incompetence of just not even considering uh the

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Speaker 2: last person seeing with the victim.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, who became a witness against uh Ron? I guess right,

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Speaker 4: Yeah he was.

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Speaker 5: He was cleverly, I guess you could say deflected the blame,

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Speaker 5: as we see not infrequently in these cases where the

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Speaker 5: actual perpetrator uh becomes a witness for the prosecution, because

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Speaker 5: it's probably the simplest way to uh, you know, put

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Speaker 5: turn the attention away from you and onto somebody else's

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Speaker 5: make yourself into a witness. And that's exactly what he did,

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Speaker 5: and he got away with it for quite a while.

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Speaker 5: So in this case, you know, you talked about how

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Speaker 5: you were so taken with the story of Ron Williamson.

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Speaker 5: It is a fascinating and and sort of terrible story

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Speaker 5: in that this was a young man who had once

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Speaker 5: had so much promise right he was a He was

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Speaker 5: a professional baseball player, drafted by the Oakland A's and

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Speaker 5: seemed to have his whole life laid out in front

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Speaker 5: of him until he was injured, never made it to

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Speaker 5: the big leagues.

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Speaker 4: And what a strange thing to think about.

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Speaker 5: The cruel, sort of capricious or arbitrary nature of this

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Speaker 5: whole thing that he went from a major League prospect

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Speaker 5: to being on death row, and as you said, coming

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Speaker 5: within five days of being executed for a crime that

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Speaker 5: everyone should have known. He didn't come in, and of

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Speaker 5: course he lost his mind in prison and died tragically

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Speaker 5: soon after he was released. And there was another innocent man,

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Speaker 5: Dennis Fritz.

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Speaker 2: Dennis's crime was that he was hanging around with Ron,

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Speaker 2: and Ron became when Ron was growing up by the town.

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Speaker 2: Ron was in high school in this section of southeastern Oklahoma.

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Speaker 2: A lot of coaches and scouts believe that he was

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Speaker 2: the next Mickey Mental Mickey's small town in Oklahoma and

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Speaker 2: a little bit to the north of this, and Mickey was,

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Speaker 2: of course Mickey, but Ron was in the same mold,

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Speaker 2: big strong guy, great athlete, solid legs, could hit, and

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Speaker 2: he certainly had a huge ego. Small town guy, but

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Speaker 2: you know, he was attracting attention from the scouts, and

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Speaker 2: he had a great high school baseball coach, and they

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Speaker 2: won all these games, and Ron was the man, and

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Speaker 2: he was going to be the next Mickey Mantle. And

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Speaker 2: he got drafted by the Aids in nineteen seventy two

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Speaker 2: in the first round. They paid him somewhere between fifteen

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Speaker 2: one hundred thousand bucks for the bonus, which is not bad.

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Speaker 2: Back then, he didn't it didn't last ron very long.

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Speaker 2: He went through it pretty fast, lost most of it

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Speaker 2: in a poker game. But he went off to the

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Speaker 2: minor leagues because he was gonna make plenty of money

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Speaker 2: and you know, injuries, and he at some point he

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Speaker 2: began showing signs of some pretty unstable mental issues and

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Speaker 2: undiagnosed later diagnosed as being BiPOL or and crashed and burned,

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Speaker 2: and he never he never got over the fact the

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Speaker 2: baseball career was so important to him as a small

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Speaker 2: kid in small town boy in Oklahoma. You know, he

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Speaker 2: couldn't accept the fact that he was not gonna he

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Speaker 2: was not gonna be famous, he was not gonna be

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Speaker 2: playing in Yankee Stadium, he was not gonna be Mickey Mantle.

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Speaker 2: And it just so, it crashed, It crashed on him,

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Speaker 2: and he just he went back to Ada and acted

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Speaker 2: more and more, uh, more and more bizarre different way.

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Speaker 2: He became kind of the town not town drunk, but

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Speaker 2: kind of the town misfit, uh, unemployed, drinking too much,

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Speaker 2: partying too much, fighting too much. Uh. And he was

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Speaker 2: up and down. They they tried to get him some

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Speaker 2: help with the local mental health people. They tried their best,

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Speaker 2: but it was not enough, and he was he was

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Speaker 2: just spiraling down and he became sort of it was

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Speaker 2: it was easy to convict Ron because everybody knew it.

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Speaker 2: He became the town weirdo, the town goofball, the town

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Speaker 2: ne'er do well. That was kind of Ron Williamson. And

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Speaker 2: people for a few bucks, he would cut your grass

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Speaker 2: with an old beat up lawnmower with his shirt off.

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Speaker 2: He pushes mower up and down the street, trying to

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Speaker 2: get you know, a few jobs here and there, that

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Speaker 2: kind of life. Lived almost homeless and somebody's shed in

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Speaker 2: the backyard, and it was a hard fall for him

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Speaker 2: and it really affected him mentally. And then and then

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Speaker 2: he lived fairly close to where Debbie Sue Carter was murdered.

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Speaker 2: And the cops early on, and the cops and the

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Speaker 2: prosecutor felt for a long time like Ron was the killer.

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Speaker 2: They just believe they just again tunnel vision, They had

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Speaker 2: a hunch he was their man, and they had no proof,

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Speaker 2: but they didn't stop him. They just kind of manufactured

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Speaker 2: a case against.

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Speaker 5: Him, right There was no physical evidence connecting them to

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Speaker 5: the crime obviously because they weren't there.

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Speaker 2: You know, so well, there was physical evidence in that

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Speaker 2: this part of what was wrong with the prosecution. There

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Speaker 2: were seventeen I think seventeen scalp and pubic hair is

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Speaker 2: taken from the victim's bed crime scene, and at trial,

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Speaker 2: this you know, certified analyst with the Oklahoma Crime Lab testified.

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Speaker 5: That the.

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Speaker 2: Scalp in pubic hair matched Ron Williamson and Dennis Fritz.

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Speaker 2: So they had physical proof junk science, okay, and ten

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Speaker 2: years later all seventeen hares were excluded by DNA. There

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Speaker 2: was no DNA available in nineteen eighty seven when they

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Speaker 2: went to trial, so there was a little bit of

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Speaker 2: a little bit of physical proof. It was almost all hearsay,

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Speaker 2: jailhouse snitch, bogus testimony by cops, a dream confession, just

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Speaker 2: garbage prosecution, and the prosecutor was pushing hard. He got

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Speaker 2: a jury, local jury, they wouldn't change venue, and so

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Speaker 2: he ram runned you through a conviction.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, junk science is an important part of this too.

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Speaker 5: And you know it's interesting because I do want to

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Speaker 5: talk about the death penalty and how this affected you

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Speaker 5: and maybe your views on the death penalty. I don't

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Speaker 5: know what they were leading into this. I don't know

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Speaker 5: what they are now, but I'm interested to hear. But

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Speaker 5: the other thing is with this case, it's just so

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Speaker 5: it's so easy to put yourself in the shoes of

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Speaker 5: the people on that jury. Right, who were you know

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Speaker 5: from the town. As you said, there was no change

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Speaker 5: of venue. There's a highly publicized case, A terrifying murder

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Speaker 5: in a small community always will generate that kind of

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Speaker 5: media attention and extra pressure on the police. But I

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Speaker 5: wanted to ask you, you know, one of my goals

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Speaker 5: in doing this show. Well, my main goal in doing

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Speaker 5: this show was to educate people, all of whom everyone

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Speaker 5: who's listening right now is a potential jurors. So are

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Speaker 5: you and I I don't know who would put me

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Speaker 5: on a jury never know?

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Speaker 2: Exclude you as a defense lawyer. I'd kick you off

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Speaker 2: my jury exactly. So a defense learn so not a prosecutor.

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Speaker 5: Okay, So, so you know, my my hope is that

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Speaker 5: in doing this show, and with the now almost eight

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Speaker 5: million listens that we've had over the course of the

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Speaker 5: first seven seasons, that we have helped to educate people

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Speaker 5: so that when they are called to serve on a

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Speaker 5: jury at a criminal trial, and when they hold a

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Speaker 5: Ron Williamson or Dennis Fritz's life in their hands, and

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Speaker 5: that they will be better educated and more maybe I

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Speaker 5: would say more attentive, but maybe a little bit more skeptical.

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Speaker 4: And you know, I don't want to prevent a rightful

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Speaker 4: conviction from happening.

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Speaker 5: You know, there is the famous saying Ben Franklin said, right,

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Speaker 5: it's better that a one hundred guilty men go free

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Speaker 5: than the one innocent man should suffer. Dan's beIN Franklin

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Speaker 5: kind of a great American, And so I'm interested in

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Speaker 5: your take on that, John, what would you say to

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Speaker 5: anyone who's listening now, as having lived through this and

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Speaker 5: research that have done all this work on this case

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Speaker 5: and all the other things that you've done throughout your

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Speaker 5: career looking at the criminal justice matters, how would you

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Speaker 5: advise yourors if they're going next week into a trial.

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Speaker 5: What would you tell them that could help them to

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Speaker 5: make the best decision in the interest of justice?

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Speaker 2: Well, I would urge anybody to ask themselves the basic question,

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Speaker 2: what is the physical evidence? Where let's start with the proof.

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Speaker 2: If it is something like hair analysis or bitemark analysis

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Speaker 2: or bootprint analysis, or any one of fifteen different analyzes

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Speaker 2: that have all been proven to be rather shaky.

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Speaker 4: Entire tracksco precise stuff is all. You know.

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Speaker 2: When the FBI says that ninety five percent of its

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Speaker 2: crack hair analysts got it wrong, ninety five percent from

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Speaker 2: the FBI, you can imagine what's happening out in the States.

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Speaker 2: It's junk science. It's unreliable. So go back to the

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Speaker 2: basic proof and if a prosecution does not have hard

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Speaker 2: physical evidence, and in most cases they do. Okay, most

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Speaker 2: of these cases are not that close, but as we

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Speaker 2: know in this type of work, there are a lot

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Speaker 2: of cases where the evidence is very flimsy. Number two,

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Speaker 2: I would say, if they show up with a jail

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Speaker 2: house snitch, who is going to testify that while he

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Speaker 2: was in the sale with the defendant six months ago,

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Speaker 2: he heard the defendant give up full confession, talked about

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Speaker 2: the case, knew the facts, blah blah blah. Don't believe

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Speaker 2: a word of what the snitch is saying because the

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Speaker 2: snitches cut a deal with the prosecutor or the police

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Speaker 2: to get some time off. Snitches should not be allowed period. Okay,

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Speaker 2: you know, I would if there's a false confession, if

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Speaker 2: there's a if there's a confession, okay, asked some basic questions.

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Speaker 2: Did the defendant recant the following day as soon as

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Speaker 2: he coud get away from the cops and he recan't?

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Speaker 2: Has he recanted every day since then? And most importantly,

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Speaker 2: does his confession? Do the facts match up with the

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Speaker 2: fiscal evidence? Because in almost every false confession there's no match.

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Speaker 2: You know what if the guy confessed to he said

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Speaker 2: to get out of the room with the cops and

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Speaker 2: they are notoriously unreliable. You and I, sir, on the

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Speaker 2: Innocence Project Board, we have three hundred and seventy DNA

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Speaker 2: exonerations in the past twenty five years. Twenty five percent

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Speaker 2: involved false confessions. False confessions are a huge problem that

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Speaker 2: happen all the time. And if you're a juror, say, okay,

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Speaker 2: the guy confessed in police custody. Was a lawyer present, No,

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Speaker 2: because if the lawyer's there, he wouldn't be confessing. So

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Speaker 2: if the lawyer wasn't there, how long did the interrogation last?

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Speaker 2: Was it twelve hours throughout the night? And when he

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Speaker 2: did confess, what did he say about the facts of

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Speaker 2: the case do the matchup is pretty basic stuff, but

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Speaker 2: not all not all durors, you know, or I guess

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Speaker 2: curious enough to ask those questions. Although I got to say, Jason,

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Speaker 2: they are getting more and more skeptical because we are

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Speaker 2: seeing fewer and fewer death verdicts, far fewer death verdicts,

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Speaker 2: far fewer executions, far fewer people on death row, because

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Speaker 2: jurors are far more skeptical.

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Speaker 5: I want to harp on one point that you made,

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Speaker 5: which is that in that FBI, in the investigation that

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Speaker 5: was done into the FBI forensic analysts who testified.

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Speaker 4: In hair cases, specifically in cases where hair was.

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Speaker 5: The predominant factor leading to the conviction, they found I

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Speaker 5: think they examined almost four hundred cases, and they found that,

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Speaker 5: as you said, over ninety five percent of them, the

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Speaker 5: FBI agents or experts were wrong. But in one hundred

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Speaker 5: percent of the cases at which they were wrong, they

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Speaker 5: were wrong in favor of the prosecution. So whether they

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Speaker 5: were mistaken, it's hard to believe that they were mistaken

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Speaker 5: in all those cases because it just statistically doesn't add

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Speaker 5: up that they would every single time make a mistake

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Speaker 5: in favor of the prosecution. So I think again, we

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Speaker 5: have to really take a hard look at what's being

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Speaker 5: presented in these context think about what people's motivations are

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Speaker 5: when they're testifying. In the case of the jailhouse snitches,

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Speaker 5: it couldn't be clearer, right, And it's so interesting in

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Speaker 5: our criminal justice system. You know, everyone knows that you

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Speaker 5: can't bribe a witness, right, that's a crime, that's a felony.

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Speaker 5: You know, you can't bribe a witness. But the government

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Speaker 5: has the ability to offer the best bribe that there is.

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Speaker 5: I'm calling it a bribe. It's not called the bribe technically, right,

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Speaker 5: it's a deal. Yeah, they can offer the deal that

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Speaker 5: it's you know, you can go get out of jail

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Speaker 5: free card, right, walk out today, so or reduce charge

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Speaker 5: or whatever else they want to do.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, so that that is I'm really glad you

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Speaker 4: brought that up.

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Speaker 5: Let's talk about the death penalty because support for the

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Speaker 5: death penalty in America's at an all time low, and

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Speaker 5: I think it's the first time that more than half

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Speaker 5: of Americans are opposed to death penalty. How have your

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Speaker 5: views will you? Will you anti death penalty? Are you

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Speaker 5: anti death play? Have they evolved as a result of

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Speaker 5: dealing with this case.

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Speaker 2: Well, okay, the numbers are down, but there's still a

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Speaker 2: significant number of people in the majority of states who

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Speaker 2: are favorite. If you look at the death belt thirty

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Speaker 2: six thirty eight states, the people who live there and

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Speaker 2: vote there the majority, and it's it's you know, it's

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Speaker 2: fifty to fifty, but in some places it's slightly more

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Speaker 2: who are in favor still favor the death penalty. So

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Speaker 2: it's popular in a lot of areas. You know, where

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Speaker 2: you live, it's probably not other places. It's not California,

434
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 2: the biggest state that they have six hundred people on

435
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 2: death row, but they know they executed one person. Not

436
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 2: serious about it, but they you'll have death row and

437
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 2: it cost the mozillion bucks a year.

438
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 4: Yeah.

439
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 2: Growing up in the Deep South as a Southern Baptist,

440
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 2: you know that eye for an eye, that kind of stuff,

441
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,120
Speaker 2: and it was it was the Old Testament version of retribution.

442
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 2: And we not only believe that, we we really sort

443
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 2: of advocated the death penalty. And we no one back

444
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 2: then and I can't ever remember uh was ever opposed

445
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 2: to the death penalty, and are many of them now.

446
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 2: Once I became a lawyer, though, and became into a

447
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 2: lot of criminal defense cases. You know, slowly I realized

448
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 2: that we have some pretty serious problems in the criminal

449
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,640
Speaker 2: justice system, and some very serious problems with the death

450
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 2: penalty the way it is used. And I just, you know,

451
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 2: twenty five years ago, I said this, even if you

452
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,199
Speaker 2: support the death penalty, you cannot support this death penalty

453
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 2: and the way it's used against minorities, the way it's used.

454
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 2: Different different states use it differently for the same crimes.

455
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 2: It's just it's a mess, okay. And so I'm very

456
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 2: much opposed.

457
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 5: To the argument I make to people, and I speak

458
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 5: to people who are in favor of the death penalty.

459
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 5: Is I asked them what percentage of people of innocent

460
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 5: people is it okay to execute? So they will say, well, no, no,

461
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 5: you can't execute innocent people, and I go, but you

462
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 5: do understand that the system is not It's far from perfect,

463
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 5: but it can never be perfect, even if everybody in

464
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 5: the system did the best job that they possibly could.

465
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 5: And we know there are so many different causes. There's

466
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 5: some of it's on the defense, right. We have defense

467
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 5: lawyers who slept through capital cases. We have defense lawyers

468
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 5: who are underpaid, they may be alcoholics. We have cases

469
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 5: of death people sends to death, whether the death the

470
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 5: the not. Too long after their verdict was rendered, their

471
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 5: defense attorney was disbarred or even arrested or you know,

472
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 5: found to be you know, in competence too kind of

473
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:59,919
Speaker 5: a word. So my question is, even if everybody did

474
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 5: the best job that they could, we're still going to

475
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 5: make mistakes. So my question for anyone who's listening who's

476
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 5: still pro death penalty would be, what how many innocent

477
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 5: people is it okay to execute? Out of one hundred

478
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 5: or whatever it is, Because if your answer is none,

479
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 5: then you can't be in favor of the death penalty

480
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 5: because we know we've executed incent people. Cameron Todd, Willingham,

481
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 5: There's so many other Jesse to Farah, There's so many

482
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 5: that come to mind, and I, you know, I can't.

483
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 5: I don't want to live in a country that executes

484
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 5: innocent people. In America is it's so far behind the

485
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 5: rest of the civilized world in this area. You know,

486
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 5: we are among the top five nations and the number

487
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 5: of executions, and it's not it's not a good list

488
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 5: to be on. The other nations are not nations you'd

489
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 5: be proud to be associated with in that way. Western

490
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 5: Europe has abolished it. I mean in the rest of

491
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 5: the civilized world they've for some reason, they have a

492
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 5: much worrier I think.

493
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 2: It's us in Pakistan and North Korea, places.

494
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 4: Like that, China.

495
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

496
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, So it's it's not a it's not a good

497
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 5: it's a it's a bad distinction, and it's something that

498
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 5: we can change and we must change. And you know,

499
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 5: we're going to keep fighting until we do.

500
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: Well.

501
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 2: Good thing about Jason the death Penlly is dying. It's

502
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 2: it's dying because not because of courageous lawmakers, not because

503
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 2: of courageous judges, but because of courageous jurors. And uh

504
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 2: nowadays the jurors as for the same reason we've reasons

505
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 2: we've been discussing. Because of so many high profile exonerations

506
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 2: where these bogus prosecutions were exposed, Jurors today are far

507
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 2: more skeptical about the abusive tactics used by police and

508
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 2: prosecutors to get convictions. That's one factor. Another factor is

509
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 2: that most states today are spending more money to train

510
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 2: defense lawyers. The defense lawyer and capital cases is far

511
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 2: better than it was just a few years ago, so

512
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 2: so that the play and field is kind of level now.

513
00:28:59,080 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 4: Uh.

514
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 2: And and when you go to trial, and in most

515
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 2: of your capital cases, the defendant is not only guilty,

516
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 2: but very guilty. The proof is there, and so it

517
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 2: becomes a question of how do you save this person's life?

518
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 2: And what happens now? Because the defense lawyers are so

519
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 2: much better, they are able to present to the jury

520
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 2: the whole picture of this defendant and where he came from,

521
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 2: and his background and the fact that he probably never

522
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 2: had a chance in life and jura, and once that

523
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 2: whole story is exposed in a court room, once the

524
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: jurors hear the whole story, we are seeing it weekly

525
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 2: in this country. They're far more willing to go with

526
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 2: life with no parole and spare the guy's life. They're

527
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 2: more sympathetic, right.

528
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 4: And then there's a chance to fix it.

529
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 5: I just finished reading the remarkable book by Richard Jaffey,

530
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 5: who I think he's a hero of mine. He's I think,

531
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 5: one more successful. He's one more death penalty reversals than

532
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 5: any other or appeals than any other lawyer that I

533
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 5: know of. And his book, the subtitles Defending the damned.

534
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 5: I'm trying to remember the first the actual title. It's

535
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 5: a wonderful book and it really speaks to what we're

536
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 5: talking about. I mean, you see these cases where it

537
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 5: would be apparent to anyone seemingly that these people were innocent.

538
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 5: Anthony ray Hinton is a great example of that, you know,

539
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 5: and going back to even the Innocent Man cases, right,

540
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 5: I mean, or the Innocent Man Show, because in the

541
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 5: show there were two different cases, right, It wasn't just

542
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 5: w Sue Carter.

543
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 2: Eighteen months later, a young lady named Denise Harroway was

544
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 2: abducted from a convenience store late at night where she

545
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: worked in Ada and vanished and there was no evidence,

546
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 2: There was no the crime scene was contaminated, the police

547
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 2: did not secure the crime scene, and the cashrish was open,

548
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 2: and she was gone, and some people had seen her

549
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 2: leave with a couple of sketchy guys in an old truck,

550
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 2: but she They couldn't find the body. They couldn't find her.

551
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 2: They could, they searched and searched, they couldn't. And this

552
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 2: went on for eighteen months, and then the police there

553
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 2: there was some composite police drawings that were pretty good,

554
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: and the people called in. They said that look looks

555
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 2: like Billy, looks like Joey, looks like Charlie, looks like

556
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 2: Tommy whoever. And so the cops are getting a lot

557
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 2: of input from from the composite drawings, and they just

558
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 2: sort of settled on a guy named Tommy Ward, who

559
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 2: was a twenty year old kid with no record, and

560
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 2: they called him in for interrogation, didn't tell him what,

561
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 2: didn't tell him why they wanted him, wanted to talk

562
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 2: to him, and so he goes to the police station

563
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 2: without any clue that that would be his last day

564
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 2: of freedom for the rest of his life. And they

565
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 2: began interrogating him, and things deteriorated quickly when he realized

566
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 2: they were suspicious of him. He had nothing to do

567
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 2: with the crime. He was nowhere near the crime scene,

568
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 2: he never met the victim. There's not one shred of

569
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 2: physical evidence that links him to the crime now or

570
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 2: thirty five years ago, no evidence at all. And the

571
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 2: interrogation went on for a long time, hours and hours NonStop,

572
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 2: and Tommy has said he wanted to talk to a lawyer.

573
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 2: That's not clear from the record. There is really no

574
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 2: record because it was not recorded. There were cameras in

575
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 2: the room, but they didn't record the bad stuff, and

576
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,959
Speaker 2: Tommy finally snapped. He just snapped, which is not unusual

577
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 2: after eight or ten years of hours of abusive interrogation.

578
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 2: And Tommy said, okay, finally, you know, he said, you know,

579
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 2: I'm going to give these guys a story, and it's

580
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 2: going to be so outrageous that once they investigate it,

581
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 2: they'll realize I'm lying. Okay, So he just felt them

582
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 2: a big story about grabbing the girl, taking her out,

583
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 2: raping her, cutting her throat, burning her body, disposing it

584
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 2: over here. And while he was actually doing this, the

585
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 2: cops said, were where did you dispose of her bodies? So, well,

586
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 2: I threw it down the dish, So they had a

587
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 2: cops in EIGHTA would run to that location and couldn't

588
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 2: find a body. So he called back to the police

589
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 2: station and said, we can't find the body. So the

590
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 2: cops see tom the body's not there. Where's the body?

591
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 2: And they say, oh, you'd make up some other Well,

592
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 2: the body's over in the warehouse, you know whatever. So

593
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 2: the cops would go over there, Well it wasn't there. Well,

594
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 2: the copsure it's in the bottom of a silo that'd

595
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 2: go this goes on all night long. He's stupid. Cops

596
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 2: would runn around Ada trying to find the body because

597
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 2: Tommy's making stuff up. Okay, Tommy's just making stuff up

598
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 2: because he's crazy, he's half crazed. Okay. And finally they said, okay,

599
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 2: enough of that, let's have the confession. And after about

600
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 2: I don't know, fifteen hours, they turned the machine on

601
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 2: and they recorded Tommy. And you see this in the

602
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 2: Netflix episode where he's sitting there, punched, drunk out of

603
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 2: his mind and he can't get the facts straight. The

604
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 2: cops are feding the facts and he keeps making mistakes

605
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,919
Speaker 2: and so the cops correct him on tape. You see

606
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: this in the show. I saw it, and it's I mean,

607
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 2: that's been reviewed by some experts who experts in false confessions,

608
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 2: who just shake their head at how bad the false

609
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 2: confession is. I mean, as far as false confessions go,

610
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 2: it's not even it's horrible anyway that they never found

611
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 2: the body, okay, but they had a confession. So they

612
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,919
Speaker 2: go to trial without the body, and tom he's found

613
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 2: guilty of capital murder, rape and capital murder with nobody. Okay,

614
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 2: he goes off to death throw In Oklahoma. Six months later,

615
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 2: a hunter stumbled across a body in a shallow grave

616
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 2: a few miles from Ada, in a remote section of

617
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 2: the county, and they do the dental exams and it's

618
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 2: these airway and she'd been shot once in the back

619
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 2: of the head and that was the cause of death,

620
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 2: not burnt, not stab not you know whatever. And in

621
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 2: most jurisdictions, in most places in the country, once the

622
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 2: body was found, and once the people realized it had

623
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 2: nothing even remotely familiar with the confession, it's time to

624
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 2: call time out and rethink things. But not an Ada.

625
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 5: So yeah, I mean, when I think about this case,

626
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 5: and it's been you know, several weeks since I watched

627
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 5: the show, but I think back on it and I go,

628
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:24,280
Speaker 5: how in this country could Tommy Ward and Carl Fontano

629
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 5: be convicted of a stabbing that was actually a shooting, right,

630
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 5: I mean, it wasn't even the right crime. And furthermore,

631
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 5: in their testimony they said that they were with another guy, right,

632
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 5: and who we know wasn't there because his alibi was

633
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 5: air tight.

634
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 4: So everything was wrong with this case.

635
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 2: Everything was wrong. Yeah, everything was wrong.

636
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, And the tragedy is and it the human side

637
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 5: of this, which of course, you know, affects me and

638
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 5: I think anyone who's got empathy for their fellow man

639
00:36:58,239 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 5: or humans.

640
00:36:59,440 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 4: You know.

641
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 5: You see Tommy particularly in the in the show, who's

642
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:05,919
Speaker 5: been in prison now for about thirty three years, thirty

643
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 5: four years. He was a ninety four case, and he

644
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 5: comes across as just sort of a sort of a

645
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 5: big bear of a man, but kind of like a

646
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 5: gentle giant, you know, and just sort of a very

647
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 5: just a very kind He's got a kind way about him.

648
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 2: You know, he's you know, he's he's a sweet guy.

649
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 2: He was a sweet he's a sweet boy. I mean,

650
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 2: he grew up in a church, big family, all devout churchgoers.

651
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 2: He was, you know, twenty years old. He was a

652
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:36,800
Speaker 2: little bit on the wild side for a while. But

653
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,919
Speaker 2: now after after thirty three years, thirty four years in prison,

654
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 2: he's he's earned his g D. He's earned his degree.

655
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 2: He's he's earned several Bible study awards. To the mail,

656
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 2: he teaches several Bible study groups. He's sort of like

657
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 2: the official chaplain at This guy has a perfect prison

658
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 2: record and he's never spilled a couple coffee in prison,

659
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 2: and he's a wonderful human being who sort of accepted

660
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 2: his fate in life that this is just, you know

661
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 2: what I get for some reason. I've been dealt this

662
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 2: hand and I'll survive it. And you know, but he's

663
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 2: lost his childhood, he's lost the chance to marry, have

664
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 2: a family. He worries about his mother, who's ninety and

665
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 2: obviously in the failing and he would love to see her.

666
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 2: But it's a huge tragedy. And the tragedy is we

667
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 2: talk about Jason so many times, is you get frustrated

668
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 2: at the at the authorities and the bogus conviction and

669
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 2: the you know, the cops and all the horrible things

670
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 2: they did. But the real killer, you know, this was

671
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 2: still out there, still is still out there. We have

672
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 2: a few suspects in mind, but these people have not

673
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 2: been brought to justice. Thirty five years later, yeah, thirty

674
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 2: four years later, they still have never been brought to

675
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 2: justice because the cops blew the case. And that's what

676
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 2: happens with awful convictions. That's another reason to be so

677
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 2: frustrated by them, is the real rapist and the real

678
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:10,240
Speaker 2: murderers are left free to rome and they almost always

679
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 2: repeat their crimes.

680
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 5: They almost always do. And of course there's another victim

681
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 5: in this case. And when I say victim, I mean

682
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 5: another innocent man who was convicted, which is Carl Fontano,

683
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 5: who was a.

684
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 4: Guy who was.

685
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 5: You know, very clearly, you know slow he was. He

686
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 5: was a guy who had you know, developmental issues of

687
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 5: some sort. I'm not a psychologist, but you know you can.

688
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 5: You can watch that tape and you just you watching

689
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 5: that show. I want to jump through the screen and

690
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 5: stop the process because you're sitting there watching it kind

691
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 5: of reminds me of making a murder when they're interviewing

692
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 5: Brendan Dacy, right, because he just doesn't understand what's going on,

693
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 5: and he is so easily led like a lamb to

694
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 5: the slaughter, right. And we know that in false confession

695
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 5: cases it's so much well obviously it's easier to get

696
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 5: someone who's of limited mental acuity, but also people who

697
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 5: are most likely to falsely confessor, people who are teenagers

698
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 5: and ironically people in the military. And you had that,

699
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:09,800
Speaker 5: of course here with the case that you were deeply

700
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 5: involved with with the Norfolk for because they are used

701
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 5: to and this is counterintuitive, but they because you know,

702
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,359
Speaker 5: I think most of us think that a military guy

703
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 5: would be able to stand up for himself. But they're

704
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 5: used to obeying authority figures and orders, so they.

705
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 2: Respect authority figures and they kind of want to do

706
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 2: something to help the authority figures with their job. And

707
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 2: a lot of times you'll see people who are vulnerable

708
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 2: step way out of line to kind of help the

709
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 2: cops out. That's why a lot of interrogations, the police

710
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 2: are quick to say, okay, would you agree to a polygraph? Well,

711
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 2: innocent people jump in the chance to do a polygraph

712
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,760
Speaker 2: to prove themselves guilty. People never do okay, but innocent

713
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,919
Speaker 2: guys in interrogation, oh yeah, I'll take a polygraph, which

714
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 2: is fatal okay, because what the cops are allowed to

715
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 2: do is give the polygraph, a true, real polygraph, okay.

716
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:11,320
Speaker 2: And usually the defendant passes the polygraph and the cops

717
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 2: are allowed to then lie about it. They walk back

718
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 2: in the room with the graph paper, they throw it

719
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 2: in the guy's face and so you flunk the polygraph.

720
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 2: Now we have proof you're lying. We can use this

721
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 2: in cord you get in the death penalty and just bam, bam,

722
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 2: bam and it's all a lie. But our Supreme Court

723
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 2: so that's okay.

724
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 5: Right, And America is I don't think a loan in this,

725
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 5: but is an outlier in this, and that police are

726
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 5: allowed to lie during the interrogation probaly, Yes.

727
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 2: Low they want to tell exactly any low they want

728
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 2: to tell during the interrogation. They can do it with impunity. Right.

729
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 5: So when you're sitting there going well, I would never

730
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 5: confess to a crime, but then they bring in they

731
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 5: go John, listen, man, we got your fingerprints on the

732
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 5: murder weapon, we got your DNA on the on the

733
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 5: body with we just tested.

734
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 4: We did a quick test, we did an instant test.

735
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 2: Whatever they say, right, and your two buddies next door

736
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 2: and several rooms have both said total truth. They've said

737
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 2: you pulled the trigger.

738
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 3: We know you did.

739
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 2: Okay, these gowns are testifying against you. You look at

740
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 2: the death penalty and and your toast man. But if

741
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:10,800
Speaker 2: you if you'll trust us and go along with we

742
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 2: know the judge, we know the prosecutors. You know we

743
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 2: can we can help you cut a deal. But to

744
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 2: save your skin, you better tell us now and we'll

745
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:20,359
Speaker 2: we'll we'll help you out right.

746
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 5: There's a there's a movie that actually is out now

747
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 5: called False Confessions that actually, uh, I'm in it because

748
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 5: they've they taped an episode of the podcast.

749
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:30,439
Speaker 4: But you're in a movie.

750
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you know that maybe you had

751
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 5: that content maybe why it hasn't become a HITCHES yet,

752
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 5: but it will but anyway, but no, it's it's a

753
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 5: it's a really good movie. And in it you see

754
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 5: that what they do is they they they sort of

755
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 5: close this circle where they finally come to you and

756
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 5: go listen. Now, you know that we've got all this

757
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 5: evidence against you, and we know that the other guy

758
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 5: said you did it, So you can either be a

759
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 5: perpetrator or a witness, which one do you want to be?

760
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 4: And then once so.

761
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 5: That speaks to another thing that I wanted to ask

762
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 5: for your take on as someone who's got this vast

763
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 5: experience chronicling writing about participating in so many different aspects

764
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 5: of the criminal justice system. Let's say someone's listening now

765
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 5: and they or a family member gets picked up for

766
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 5: something they didn't do.

767
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 4: What's your advice?

768
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 5: What what what's the dos and don'ts when you get

769
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,800
Speaker 5: first picked up and and and remember of course, you know,

770
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 5: as you touched on, many people get picked up not

771
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 5: realizing that they're suspect. And I told their suspects, just

772
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 5: come to the police stage. We want to ask a

773
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,919
Speaker 5: few questions about something. What would you advise.

774
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 2: We're assuming it's a serious crime that they are being

775
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 2: questioned about. I would, well, I'm a lawyer, okay, So

776
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,280
Speaker 2: I would say, you know, I'll be there with my lawyer.

777
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 2: I'll be there with put it. You can put them off, okay,

778
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 2: I'll be there to more at whatever time with my lawyer.

779
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 4: Okay.

780
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,879
Speaker 2: Is that that's the way I would start it. Most

781
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 2: folks don't think like that, because, you know, the innocent

782
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 2: people don't really worry about it. They they want to

783
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 2: cooperate with the cops. They want to help the cops

784
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 2: solve the crime. So they walk into this and oftentimes

785
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 2: get burned. But I would never listen. I've had in

786
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 2: the past twenty years, I've had two on two separate occasions,

787
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 2: I've had the doorbell rings. I go to the door,

788
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 2: say FBI agent, and they have the badge FBI. I

789
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 2: always kind of laugh, you know something you see on television.

790
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 2: I've done nothing wrong, and both times it was sort

791
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 2: of an ancillary issue to a bigger case somewhere that

792
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 2: I've never got involved in. And the guy said, Both

793
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 2: guys said, I'd like to ask some questions. And I said, okay,

794
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 2: what's it about? And before they come in the house, okay,

795
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 2: tell me, tim, what are you talking about? And so

796
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 2: they would give me some you know, the kind of

797
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,439
Speaker 2: pushy they'd give me some of the background. And both

798
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,320
Speaker 2: times I said, Okay, I'll be happy to talk to you.

799
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 2: Let me call my lawyer. Where's your office I'll be

800
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,280
Speaker 2: there tomor with my attorney and we'll have a conversation.

801
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 2: And they don't like that. But that's as far as

802
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 2: they can go. Because if you if you were to inadvertently,

803
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 2: if tell an FBI agent something is not really true,

804
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,800
Speaker 2: that's a federal crime. Okay, you can go to prison.

805
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,240
Speaker 2: Martha Stewart went to jail for that. Okay, that happens.

806
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 2: Michael Cohen, Trump's lawyer, that's happening now. You see it

807
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 2: all the time. Now those those folks are on an investigation.

808
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,399
Speaker 2: But if if if a FBI agent or a cop

809
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 2: stopped me on the street and said, hey, can we

810
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 2: ask you a couple of questions. I can I ask

811
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 2: you some questions. I would say, what's it about whatever crime,

812
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 2: whatever situation, whatever inquiry. Yeah, I'll talk to you. Yeah,

813
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 2: tell me when and where, and I'll have my lawyer there.

814
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 4: Right.

815
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 5: That's something I talk about on the show, is that,

816
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 5: you know, I advise people. I mean, everybody wants to

817
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 5: help in solving a crime, your witness to a crime.

818
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 5: I don't want to tell you not to, you know,

819
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 5: I mean we all want we all want safe streets,

820
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 5: we all want a safe society. But you know, at

821
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 5: a minute, there's an inflection point at which you know

822
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 5: in Marty Tankliff's a great example of this too, right.

823
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 5: I mean, at some point it became clear that they

824
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 5: weren't interviewing him as they said they were about his

825
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 5: business partner or anything like that, about the father's business partners.

826
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 5: They were they were looking at him as a suspect.

827
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 5: And at that point, the only words he should have said,

828
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 5: and I wish I could go back in time and

829
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 5: tell him this or I want a lawyer, and that's it,

830
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 5: and then the questioning stops. It took way too long

831
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,840
Speaker 5: for that to happen, and they were able to extract

832
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 5: at least some very some form of a false confession

833
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 5: out of him, and the next thing you know, it

834
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 5: took seventeen and a half years to overturn that conviction.

835
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 5: And it's just it's a tragedy. And you know, we

836
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 5: both know Marty and how much we think of him.

837
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 5: I mean, what a beautiful, amazing, amazing guy, and what

838
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 5: a terrible fate to lose both parents and then be

839
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 5: blamed for it. And meanwhile, the still the real perpetrator,

840
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 5: who it seems abundantly clear who it is, remains remains

841
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,359
Speaker 5: free and is enjoying his retirement in Florida right now.

842
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 5: So you know, there's that, and it just doesn't it

843
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:13,359
Speaker 5: doesn't add up at all.

844
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 2: So I tell listen, I've raised two kids of their

845
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,919
Speaker 2: adults now, but when they were teenagers. You know, I'm

846
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,840
Speaker 2: a former criminal defense lawyer, and I've always told my

847
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 2: kids and my wife. If you get pulled over and

848
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 2: the cop says, can I search your car? The answers no,

849
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 2: I don't care what, I don't care where you are.

850
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 2: The answers know if they show up at the door, yeah,

851
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:34,799
Speaker 2: if you if you have a search warrant, If they

852
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 2: come to your house and knock on the door and

853
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 2: want to search. Sure, give me a show me a

854
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 2: search warrant. If they want to interrogate you. Yeah, I'll

855
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 2: be happy to talk, but let me get my lawyer involved.

856
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 2: You don't ever trust, have a healthy distrust for people

857
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 2: who show up and want to talk or search.

858
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 5: That's that's good advice, I mean. And again, if we

859
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 5: can help by virtue of you being on the show. Uh,

860
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 5: you know, one person, avoid this horrible faith that Ron

861
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 5: Williams and Dennis Fritz, Carl Fontano, and Tommy Ward all

862
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 5: in a small town of So let's think about that too, right,

863
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,360
Speaker 5: because I'm a statistical guy. You have this small little

864
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 5: speck of a town aight to Oklahoma. You have four

865
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 5: wrongful convictions inside the space of two years.

866
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 2: Well, actually you had six in the span of five years.

867
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 2: And four of the six have been exonerated by DNA.

868
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 2: Ron and Dennis and then Perry Lott and Cavalie Scott

869
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 2: were served twenty and thirty years for rapes they didn't commit.

870
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,359
Speaker 2: And then that's four. With the Tommy and Carl, that's six.

871
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 2: They're still locked up. They have not been exonerated. And

872
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not sure they're going to be.

873
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 5: We know they're innocent, and so yes, I'm I'm just

874
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,279
Speaker 5: extrapolated six six and five years in Ada, Oklahoma, the.

875
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 2: Same same police, same cops, same prosecutor, same DA's office,

876
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 2: same everything. Six wrongful convictions in five.

877
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 5: Years, right, and social scientists, the studies that have been done.

878
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 5: Obviously it's no one can know for sure. We'll never

879
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 5: know for sure. But as to make that, around five

880
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 5: percent of people in prison in America are innocent, So

881
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 5: that number is pretty close to one hundred thousand people

882
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 5: innocent people.

883
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:13,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, two million behind bars, which is the largest incarceration

884
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 2: rate in the world, this civilized world. So you have

885
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 2: two million behind bars, and you know, some people say

886
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:23,399
Speaker 2: five percent is low, that's still one hundred thousand people.

887
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 2: But there. I didn't I was not aware of that

888
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 2: until I wrote the book and I realized how many

889
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 2: innocent people are in prison, and there are a lot

890
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 2: of them.

891
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 5: So yeah, and I encourage anyone who knows someone who

892
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:39,879
Speaker 5: is innocent in prison to get out there and make

893
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 5: as much noise as you can, bring as much attention

894
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 5: talk about it. You never know, even if you're talking

895
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 5: about it in a nine or there might be somebody

896
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 5: sitting at the next table that might be a you know,

897
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 5: somebody of influence, talk to a journalist, talk to write letters.

898
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 5: I mean, we have to bring as much attention to

899
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 5: these cases as we can, and that's what we're here for. So, John,

900
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 5: we have a tradition on Wrongful Conviction, which is at

901
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 5: the end of each episode, and this is my favorite

902
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 5: part of the episode. I think it's one our producer.

903
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 5: I think it's his favorite part of the episode, and

904
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 5: it's our audience's favorite part. This is the part where

905
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 5: I stopped talking and I thank you. It'll be a

906
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 5: good thing, That's what I'm saying. Yeah, you can't insult

907
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 5: me when I are in Selton. This is the EM

908
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,400
Speaker 5: and M defense I'm using right where you put all

909
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 5: this stuff out there first, so as he did in

910
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 5: the famous wrap battle Inn eight Mile. But so, first

911
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:28,839
Speaker 5: of all, I want to thank you for being here

912
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 5: on Wrongful Conviction, and I want to turn the mic

913
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 5: over to you for final thoughts.

914
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 2: Final thoughts. Well, first of all, selfishly, I encourage you

915
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 2: to watch The Innocent Man, the Netflix series which I

916
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,800
Speaker 2: had nothing to do with, although I'm the executive producer,

917
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 2: which means I did nothing. Every show now has fourteen

918
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 2: executive producers, and I still don't know what one does.

919
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:56,919
Speaker 2: But I was involved in it a little bit because

920
00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 2: it's from a storytelling point of view. It's a fantastic story,

921
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 2: very well done by somebody else. I wrote the book

922
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 2: you know, years ago and got all the attention I

923
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:10,800
Speaker 2: needed for that. But the Netflix is of series is compelling,

924
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 2: and it's informative, and it lays out so many reasons

925
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 2: for wrongful convictions.

926
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 5: Well, thank you again for being here and you've been

927
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:23,320
Speaker 5: listening to an extra special episode of Wrongful Conviction with

928
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 5: the one and only John Grisham.

929
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:26,280
Speaker 4: John, thanks again my pleasure.

930
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 5: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you

931
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 5: get your podcasts.

932
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:43,360
Speaker 4: It really helps.

933
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 5: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and

934
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,399
Speaker 5: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

935
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:53,400
Speaker 5: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

936
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 5: to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how to donate and

937
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 5: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

938
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 5: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is

939
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 5: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph be sure

940
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 5: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on

941
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 5: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm

942
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,879
Speaker 5: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association

943
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 5: with Signal Company Number one