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Speaker 1: And you're meeting someone in a moment of crisis, right,

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Speaker 1: You're meeting someone in a moment where I think, especially

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Speaker 1: at the beginning, I couldn't hide who I was. I

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Speaker 1: couldn't really you can't have small talk. What is small talk?

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Speaker 1: During COVID we are now left like really staring into

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Speaker 1: each other's eyes with no frills, And I think that

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Speaker 1: it forces us to think outside of the box when

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Speaker 1: it comes to dating. COVID has changed basically every aspect

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Speaker 1: of our daily lives, work, school, going out to eat,

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Speaker 1: seeing friends, seeing family, entertaining any social lives whatsoever. Another

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Speaker 1: thing that's changed dating our love lives. Some nights, after

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Speaker 1: a long day of working from home, school from home,

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Speaker 1: everything from home, I look at the dishes that are

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Speaker 1: piled up in my sink. I listened to my kids

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Speaker 1: who are not showered, haven't done their homework, are fighting

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Speaker 1: like cats and dogs. And I asked myself, what would

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Speaker 1: all of this be like if I was going through

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Speaker 1: COVID single. Overall, quarantine and pandemic life have been isolating

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Speaker 1: and lonely, even for those of us who aren't living alone.

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Speaker 1: We're losing out on social interactions, personal connections, and of course,

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Speaker 1: physical touch, so it's not surprising that people found a

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Speaker 1: way around this and found love even from a distance.

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Speaker 1: I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC Anchor, NBC News Senior Correspondent, and

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Speaker 1: this is Modern Rules, a podcast from NBC Think and

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. On this episode of Modern Rules, we're

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Speaker 1: asking what it's like to date, find love, and have

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Speaker 1: sex during COVID, and I found the perfect perfect guest

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Speaker 1: for this conversation, the one and only Liz Plank. She

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Speaker 1: is a superstar human, but she's also an MSNBC columnist,

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Speaker 1: and she took on an amazing and very daring assignment

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Speaker 1: where she chronicled part of her dating life during the

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Speaker 1: early months of COVID. Liz, I'm so glad you're here.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to be here with you. For so

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Speaker 1: many of us who may have been mired in homework

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Speaker 1: and making food, I think we forgot that we were

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Speaker 1: surrounded by a lot of people and that chaos is comforting.

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Speaker 1: But for people who are single, can you just walk

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Speaker 1: me through what was it like in the early days.

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Speaker 1: I think it was very daunting and very scary. COVID

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Speaker 1: has shown us on a societal level, who we are right.

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Speaker 1: It showed us who we are in relationship with ourselves,

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Speaker 1: and it's shown us who we are in relationships with

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Speaker 1: other people. You know, if you're single, you're extra single.

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Speaker 1: If you're married, you're extra married. If you have kids,

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Speaker 1: you extra have kids, right, So everything is amplified in

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Speaker 1: you doing this piece and researching what has it really

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Speaker 1: been like? Well, what I found is that there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of people who are struggling. When I've talked to

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Speaker 1: people about this, what I've been sort of amazed by

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Speaker 1: is the diversity of the responses. There are people who say, actually,

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Speaker 1: I've had more time to date than ever, and there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who feel lonely. And when it

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Speaker 1: comes to dating, I think feeling like you're gonna lose

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Speaker 1: one more year or two more years, not knowing when

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Speaker 1: the next time you'll be able to go on a

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Speaker 1: date again is very scary. So you're already feeling alone,

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Speaker 1: You're already feeling scared. Everything is very uncertain. None of

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Speaker 1: us were prepared for it. A lot of people were saying,

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Speaker 1: if I had known that I would go on another

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Speaker 1: date for I don't know how many months or years

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Speaker 1: um I would have gone on this date with this person,

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Speaker 1: maybe I should have made it work with my ex.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of people were rethinking their dating lives entirely.

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Speaker 1: Let's compare it to regular times. Right. In regular times,

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Speaker 1: you could be confused by a hot restaurant, a hot show,

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Speaker 1: an exciting night. Right, because COVID has changed that, do

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Speaker 1: you think this could change relationships and the way we

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Speaker 1: date going forward? So for the NBC piece, we interviewed

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Speaker 1: Matthew Hussey, who is this dating expert and coach, And

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Speaker 1: one of the things that he had said even pre

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Speaker 1: pandemic was stopped doing fancy dates. Don't let this guy

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Speaker 1: take you to the fanciest restaurant, or don't let this

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Speaker 1: woman bring you to the biggest Broadway show. Just go

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Speaker 1: do a regular thing with this regular person to see

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Speaker 1: who they are and if you get along. I think

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Speaker 1: that now, the fact that you'll be able to meet

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Speaker 1: in person UM will make it so much more exciting

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Speaker 1: because I think we were getting kind of flaky, We

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Speaker 1: were getting kind of comfortable. I know in my own life, UM,

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Speaker 1: going on a date like people would cancel. People were

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Speaker 1: um spending more time online, they were swiping, but they

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Speaker 1: weren't meeting up in person. None of us were going

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Speaker 1: to fancy parties or fabulous events. Did everybody get a

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Speaker 1: lot more human about getting set up? I think that

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Speaker 1: we're all just more human about dating in general, right

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Speaker 1: that whether you met online, whether you met in person,

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Speaker 1: Like it's just like, oh, you met someone. There used

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Speaker 1: to be a hierarchy where meeting online was kind of

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Speaker 1: like shameful. Many it's not. The majority of people now

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Speaker 1: are meeting online. I'm dying to know what this means.

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Speaker 1: How do people hook up? In COVID? People hook up

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Speaker 1: using all kinds of different tools, most of them being

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Speaker 1: virtual tools. So porn is obviously rising, and phone sex

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Speaker 1: is having sort of this revival. I have a friend,

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Speaker 1: you know, said, like that virtual sex session, uh, if

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Speaker 1: you want to call it was the best sex I've

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Speaker 1: ever had. If you think about what happened after the

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Speaker 1: fantish mood after the war in the nineteen twenties, it

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Speaker 1: led to this really beautiful, glamorous sort sort of renaissance.

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Speaker 1: There was an economic boom, but there was also this

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Speaker 1: sexual revolution, right, And so what I see coming is

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Speaker 1: when the quarantine stops, when there's a vaccine or however

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Speaker 1: this ends, that next phase will be a really exciting

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Speaker 1: beginning for uh sex and relationships. I think it's going

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Speaker 1: to lead to an actual, like a postcode sexual revolution

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Speaker 1: where people are going to be so excited to go

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Speaker 1: out and meet new people. We'll be back after the break.

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Speaker 1: So explain to me two things, how you embarked on

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Speaker 1: this dating in the time of COVID, and then how

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Speaker 1: you end up meeting your boyfriend, Like, walk us through

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Speaker 1: this path. I definitely wanted to explore what it was

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Speaker 1: like to date during COVID. I was fascinated by what

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Speaker 1: was happening to me as a single person and also

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Speaker 1: the people around me, and so I tweeted out, single people,

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Speaker 1: when is the next time we're going to go on

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Speaker 1: a date? Are we all screwed? And I didn't realize

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Speaker 1: there was like a double entendre. A friend of mine

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Speaker 1: who saw the tweet was like, I can set you

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Speaker 1: up and actually it worked and I, you know, met

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Speaker 1: my boyfriend six six months ago, but yeah, it feels

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Speaker 1: like so much longer. This has actually been one the

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Speaker 1: longest relationships I've been in before COVID hit, did you

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Speaker 1: want to be in a relationship? Yeah, I was definitely dating,

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Speaker 1: but I was very busy. I would travel a lot,

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Speaker 1: and then everything obviously fell. We all were grounded wherever

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Speaker 1: we were, and suddenly I was like, oh, now I

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Speaker 1: have time to date, but I can't date. But just

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Speaker 1: in general, dating during COVID, did it make you so

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Speaker 1: much more exposed or vulnerable? You have to be sort

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Speaker 1: of vulnerable from the very beginning. My first date with Paul,

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Speaker 1: I was wearing bike shorts and I don't think I

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Speaker 1: wore brought and had a haircut real time. And actually

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Speaker 1: the two first dates were FaceTime dates, and then we

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Speaker 1: end up meeting in person with masks and social distance,

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Speaker 1: and then we just went to a park, something I

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Speaker 1: don't think I've done since I've been, you know, a teenager.

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Speaker 1: I think that the pandemic in a way was the

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Speaker 1: best thing that could have happened to our relationship, because

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Speaker 1: it meant that we wouldn't be on the go and

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Speaker 1: that we suddenly have the opportunity to really make the

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Speaker 1: relationship a priority. We both were just who we were,

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Speaker 1: and there was nothing to sort of hide behind. COVID

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Speaker 1: has thrown all the rules out the window that I

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Speaker 1: kind of think maybe people get to decide what they

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Speaker 1: think is their version of right from wrong? Could that

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Speaker 1: be an improvement? So you're forced to really set rules

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Speaker 1: and talk about your needs in a really direct way

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Speaker 1: and be assertive. And again, you have to trust the person.

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Speaker 1: If you don't trust this person, you could expose your parents,

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Speaker 1: or you could expose someone who dies. Are you able

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Speaker 1: to listen? Are you able to do what I need? Which,

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Speaker 1: again are really important conversations and really important dynamics to

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Speaker 1: have to build a strong relationship. So it's an accelerator

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Speaker 1: in the sense of if you don't like the person,

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Speaker 1: you're going to find out pretty quickly. Um, if you

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Speaker 1: like the person, you're going to go deeper more quickly.

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Speaker 1: For people who are saying, yes, I am alone, I

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Speaker 1: am alone either in this marriage or I am alone

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Speaker 1: as someone who's single, and this is our new normal

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Speaker 1: for the foreseeable future, what should that person be thinking about.

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Speaker 1: We all developed different coping mechanisms to stay away from

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Speaker 1: the hard truths of our lives. What makes us hard

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Speaker 1: to love, what makes us hard to be with? And

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Speaker 1: when everything comes to a standstill. I think it forced

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Speaker 1: a lot of people to, yeah, look at themselves in

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Speaker 1: the mirror and think about, you know what, what do

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Speaker 1: I want in a relationship. You're meeting someone in a

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Speaker 1: moment of crisis, right, You're really getting to know them

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Speaker 1: and getting to know what they're like, not when things

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Speaker 1: are easy, getting to know what they're like when things

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Speaker 1: are hard. And that's a really good thing to find out,

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Speaker 1: no matter how many years you've been together or how

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Speaker 1: many years you have left together, to know again, what

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Speaker 1: kind of person are you when things are not easy?

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Speaker 1: Meeting during a pandemic is anything but normal. But if

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Speaker 1: Liz and countless others prove anything it's that humans are

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Speaker 1: adaptable and that love and human connection is crucial, especially

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Speaker 1: during a crisis. And how about this, It's not all

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Speaker 1: bad getting to know someone on a deeper level without

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Speaker 1: the distraction of a fancy dinner or a Broadway show.

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Speaker 1: It might be better in the long run. Maybe Liz

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Speaker 1: is right. Maybe we're about to enter the next Roaring twenties.

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Speaker 1: In this podcast, we are trying to get straight to

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Speaker 1: the point and leave you with some time to think.

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Speaker 1: Something Liz left me thinking about is this has COVID

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Speaker 1: possibly changed dating and relationships for the better? Are their

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Speaker 1: habits and norms that have developed during this time that

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Speaker 1: might actually lead to more successful, long term relationships and

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Speaker 1: maybe maybe they're here to stay. I'm Stephanie Rule and

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Speaker 1: you're listening to Modern Rules, a podcast from NBC Think,

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Speaker 1: MSNBC and I Heart Radio. This podcast is hosted by Me.

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Speaker 1: Stephanie Rule, Might Be In. Katrina Norvell are executive producers.

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Speaker 1: Meredith Bennett Smith is Senior editor for NBC Think and

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Speaker 1: our editorial lead. The podcast is engineered and edited by

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Speaker 1: Josh Fisher. Additional production support provided by Charles Herman, Rachel Rosenbaum,

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Speaker 1: and Lauren Wynn, and special thanks to Katherine kim Are,

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Speaker 1: Global Head of Digital News right here at NBC News

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Speaker 1: and MSNBC. For more thought provoking analysis, visit NBC news

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Speaker 1: dot com slash thing