Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we give
Speaker 1: you insights into the mind of brain, behavior, and creativity.
Speaker 1: Each episode will feature a guest who will stimulate your
Speaker 1: mind and give you a greater understanding of yourself, others,
Speaker 1: and the world we live in. Hopefully we'll also provide
Speaker 1: a glimpse into human possibility. If you like what you
Speaker 1: hear today, please add a rating and review on iTunes.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening and enjoy the podcast. So today, I'm
Speaker 1: really excited to have Melissa Dalla on the podcast. Melissa
Speaker 1: is a senior editor covering health and psychology for New
Speaker 1: York's The Cut. In twenty fourteen, she co founded New
Speaker 1: York's popular social science site Science of Us. Her work
Speaker 1: has appeared Inherents and Today dot Com. Her new book,
Speaker 1: Cringeworthy is her first book. Hey, great to chat with
Speaker 1: you today. Chat with you So awkwardness? Wow? What a topic?
Speaker 1: Has no one else ever really covered this topic before
Speaker 1: in a popular treatment? Well, I know, I had really
Speaker 1: covered it in the way that was interesting to me.
Speaker 1: I mean because to me, the way I understood it
Speaker 1: was was sort of like a feeling, you know, like
Speaker 1: I think as I was working on this book, people
Speaker 1: would would hear that I was writing a book about awkwardness,
Speaker 1: and they would say to me like, oh, you don't
Speaker 1: strike me as particularly awkward, and you know, I would
Speaker 1: be like, thank you, will I will take the compliments.
Speaker 1: But that's kind of not what I was curious about.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm glad I don't come off as awkward,
Speaker 1: but I feel this way a lot. I feel kind
Speaker 1: of self conscious, and I feel uncertain about what to
Speaker 1: say or do next, and I feel just you know,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of like thinking about like, oh, why did
Speaker 1: I think that? Why did I do that? That was dumb?
Speaker 1: So yeah, I couldn't really find much that had it
Speaker 1: covered it in that way that I was interested in,
Speaker 1: so I was just like, Okay, I guess I'll do
Speaker 1: it myself. Yeah. No, well I'm glad you did. I mean,
Speaker 1: it was a really hallucinating book, wonder about this thing
Speaker 1: that you know, humans are funny creatures, you know, like
Speaker 1: dogs are never awkward, They never feel awkward, and they
Speaker 1: do the most awkward things, but they just don't care. Yeah. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I mean that became an interesting kind of distinction for me.
Speaker 1: It's like a difference between you know, someone someone might
Speaker 1: say or do something that makes everybody else in the
Speaker 1: room feel awkward, but they didn't notice it, they didn't
Speaker 1: feel that way. They don't see it the way somebody
Speaker 1: else sees it. And that made me think about it.
Speaker 1: Maybe it is kind of an emotion in the way
Speaker 1: it kind of spreads like that. So, yeah, that distinction
Speaker 1: was really interesting to me to think about. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you went through this big journey where you're now like
Speaker 1: awkward proof or whatever. You know, like it seems like
Speaker 1: or you know, you've really just really kind of overcame
Speaker 1: it in a sense that like a lot of things
Speaker 1: that used to really bother you or get to you,
Speaker 1: you just kind of they kind of roll for your
Speaker 1: back and you've become more of an explorer of people.
Speaker 1: Is that right? Oh, that's completely true. Yeah. I mean honestly,
Speaker 1: when I set out to write this book, I was
Speaker 1: just looking at my contract the other day and it
Speaker 1: says that I was going to write a book about
Speaker 1: like overcoming awkwardness, and I guess it sort of was
Speaker 1: that in a way, But my initial idea was to
Speaker 1: have it be more something like, you know, how to
Speaker 1: finish this feeling from your life forever? You know, I
Speaker 1: never want to feel this way again, and I feel
Speaker 1: it to a lesser degree. Now I don't feel it,
Speaker 1: and I'm glad I do, but I'm like that as
Speaker 1: afraid of it anymore. You know, I'm kind of like
Speaker 1: more comfortable just sitting with the awkwardness and kind of
Speaker 1: thinking about it in different ways, like maybe it's a
Speaker 1: signal of something that it could be signals something I
Speaker 1: might want to change about myself, Like maybe that's where
Speaker 1: this comfort is coming from. It could be just discomfort
Speaker 1: coming from uncertainty or that kind of thing. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I found that I'm kind of able to be a
Speaker 1: little more straightforward in situations that would have scared me
Speaker 1: to be straightforward in. Now. Yeah, it's been an interesting
Speaker 1: awkward journey. Well does overcoming awkwardness? Does it go hand
Speaker 1: in hand with overcoming social anxiety, overcoming fear of rejection?
Speaker 1: Like is there a whole system of psychopathologies that are
Speaker 1: addressed if you like tackle the fear of awkwardness? Do
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Yeah, So I started to
Speaker 1: think about awkwardness is sort of like, you know, like
Speaker 1: a lesser like feeling awkwardness is sort of a lesser
Speaker 1: version of social anxiety, Like people who have social anxiety
Speaker 1: feel this to the point where you know, it holds
Speaker 1: them back from doing things they really want to do,
Speaker 1: maybe even you know, things like going to a party
Speaker 1: or just ordering food on the phone, although I guess
Speaker 1: none of us have to do that anymore. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think there was a lot of interesting things to
Speaker 1: be learned from some of the folks who study social anxiety.
Speaker 1: One of the really things I really loved was there's
Speaker 1: this guy, Stefan Hoffman at Boston University at this anxiety
Speaker 1: center over there, who works with social anxiety patients and
Speaker 1: does this kind of like exposure therapy with them. He
Speaker 1: calls it as social mishap exposures, and he basically asked
Speaker 1: them to come up with, you know what's like the
Speaker 1: most embarrassing thing can think about, you can think of doing.
Speaker 1: He's like, Okay, now go do it. And so he'll
Speaker 1: make people go do things, like you know, he's had
Speaker 1: people go do things like go to a bookstore and say,
Speaker 1: excuse me, do you have any books about farting? Or
Speaker 1: or like go to a drug store and you know,
Speaker 1: go to pick up a pack contents and say, excuse me,
Speaker 1: do do these come in any smaller sizes, and the
Speaker 1: point is like not to not to humiliate these people
Speaker 1: and not to scare them. The point is kind of
Speaker 1: to make them face these social fears and come out
Speaker 1: the other side and realize like, oh, you know, I lived.
Speaker 1: I survived, and that was uncomfortable, but it didn't kill
Speaker 1: me and and it wasn't actually that bad. So the
Speaker 1: point he kind of tries to stress is to lighten
Speaker 1: up and to take yourself a little less seriously, which
Speaker 1: is I think anyone who feels awkward often was a
Speaker 1: good lessons to learn. That's a lesson I am always learning.
Speaker 1: I love that. I love that. Don't take yourself so seriously.
Speaker 1: You know that that reminds me of what kind of
Speaker 1: skills you earn an improv. And I know that you did.
Speaker 1: It took you took like a four week improv course,
Speaker 1: isn't that right? I did? I did. It's so funny.
Speaker 1: I actually, I mean I say this in the book.
Speaker 1: I actually took it just almost as like a stunt.
Speaker 1: You know, I was just going to write about it
Speaker 1: and then make fun of it and then like go
Speaker 1: back to my life and then like I actually really
Speaker 1: really loved it. It kind of for me, I think
Speaker 1: worked as like an awkwardness exposure therapy, because I think
Speaker 1: a lot of awkwardness comes from uncertainty. You know, I
Speaker 1: don't know what to say next, I don't know what
Speaker 1: to do next. And that's what improv is all about.
Speaker 1: There is no script. You just kind of are thrown
Speaker 1: in and all right, figure it out. And I don't
Speaker 1: like situations where I don't have rules. I don't like
Speaker 1: situations where I don't feel in control. And it kind
Speaker 1: of made me confront that feeling and get over it
Speaker 1: and make mistakes and look stupid in front of a
Speaker 1: classroom of people. And it was fine, and it was
Speaker 1: actually really really really fun. I was so surprised to
Speaker 1: how fun it was. Wow, that's so interesting. I can't
Speaker 1: stand situations where there are rules, like yeah, I hate
Speaker 1: oh yeah, I have social ins. I like to feel
Speaker 1: free with people. That's why I have this like independent
Speaker 1: podcast that like you know that I am not beholden
Speaker 1: to anyone. I think that's a really cool way to
Speaker 1: be because I mean, okay, actually, this is kind of
Speaker 1: I think this is kind of a funny story. But
Speaker 1: for Science of Us years ago, I wanted to do
Speaker 1: a post about I guess I've been obsessed with awkwardness
Speaker 1: for years because I wanted to do a post about
Speaker 1: that thing, you know, where someone is walking towards you
Speaker 1: and you're walking towards them and you step to one side,
Speaker 1: but they stepped to that side too, And then you
Speaker 1: step the other side, but they stepped to that side too,
Speaker 1: and you give the dance. Yeah. So I emailed this
Speaker 1: guy who studies like sidewalk dynamics, and I kind of
Speaker 1: I wanted to find from him a rule, you know,
Speaker 1: what is the rule, like which way do most people go?
Speaker 1: Which which way should most people pass? And you know,
Speaker 1: he wrote back and he was like, well, okay, it's
Speaker 1: true that, like, you know, I've studied this and most
Speaker 1: people do pass on the right and that's fine. But
Speaker 1: he also said to me, but you know, you can't
Speaker 1: you can't go out in the world and expect everyone
Speaker 1: to follow the same rules. You can't expect life to
Speaker 1: play by rules at all. You know, you have to
Speaker 1: kind of be uncomfortable with situations where there are no rules,
Speaker 1: where people break the rules, where there's unpredictability, and you
Speaker 1: have to be comfortable with that. And he he studies
Speaker 1: this thing he calls sidewalk rage when people just get
Speaker 1: really really angry at kind of like kind of like
Speaker 1: road rage, and he said, end that email back to me.
Speaker 1: He is, like, I hope it's okay. I hope you
Speaker 1: won't be insulted by this, but I think you might
Speaker 1: have at least a mild version of sidewalk rage. Oh,
Speaker 1: sidewalk rage. Hilarious. Yea. Anyway, So I think that your
Speaker 1: approach to the world is really is a really nice
Speaker 1: way to be because there are rules that govern social situations,
Speaker 1: but they go off the rails a lot. So I
Speaker 1: think it's better to be comfortable with the times when
Speaker 1: they go off the rails totally and by rules, you know.
Speaker 1: I think that I really value in social situations there
Speaker 1: being like a common respect. I mean when I say
Speaker 1: no rules, I don't mean like, you know, yeah, I
Speaker 1: just love it when I get to call people bad names,
Speaker 1: you know, like you know that's not what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I'm saying, you know, Like I like there's kind of
Speaker 1: like a mutual just kind of like safe area too
Speaker 1: that we know that we can speak our mind. I
Speaker 1: like that. Okay, So that's really cool that you really
Speaker 1: confronted this head on. I mean, that's that's brave in
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. Also, you know, I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people, a lot of journalists just love writing
Speaker 1: books that are like self transformation or self discoveries, because
Speaker 1: it kind of like writing the book is an excuse
Speaker 1: to be brave, you know what I mean, They're like
Speaker 1: you have in your head, well I got to do it,
Speaker 1: you know, like you know, I got to do it.
Speaker 1: It's going to make a good story. You know, like
Speaker 1: maybe if you didn't have this, would you have taken
Speaker 1: as many risks if you didn't have the book contract?
Speaker 1: No way. I Mean one thing I certainly would not
Speaker 1: have done is I participated in this show called Mortified,
Speaker 1: where people get up on stage and read from their
Speaker 1: teenage journals. And I kind of was familiar with the show.
Speaker 1: I'd heard of it, but it just horrified me just
Speaker 1: that the whole prospect of it. I certainly I would
Speaker 1: not even have attended the show and let alone have
Speaker 1: been in it. And and I'm so glad that I did.
Speaker 1: I just have such warm feelings towards towards that show
Speaker 1: now and my participation in it. It's actually really cool.
Speaker 1: That is really awesome, cute congratulations, you read your middle
Speaker 1: school journals? Is that right? Yes, it did my seventh
Speaker 1: grade diary in front of a crowd of strangers. Do
Speaker 1: you have any entries you can read right now for
Speaker 1: our audience? Do you? I have a lot of it memorized.
Speaker 1: I mean there's one. The book opens with a line
Speaker 1: that I wrote in nineteen ninety eight in my journal,
Speaker 1: which is, how come no one here likes Hanson? And
Speaker 1: I think the rest of it goes It's still true.
Speaker 1: It's still true. I know, I know, I think the
Speaker 1: rest of it goes, no offense, no offense. I might
Speaker 1: have hands in on my podcast. I should say that,
Speaker 1: Oh my god, let me know when you do, I'll
Speaker 1: be back. But yeah, I mean, I guess I could
Speaker 1: read from it my books across the room, but or
Speaker 1: I could just tell you about it either way. But
Speaker 1: I feel like that was okay. All the awkwardness that we,
Speaker 1: you know, can that we need to pretty good instant awkwardness.
Speaker 1: I mean, like I was like into the Backsheep boy
Speaker 1: is is that weird? Like I wanted to be in
Speaker 1: a boy band. But they were cool. They were cool,
Speaker 1: like cool for like a couple of months, and then
Speaker 1: they weren't, and I held on to them. But yeah,
Speaker 1: so you say, awkwardness is self consciousness tinged with uncertainty
Speaker 1: in moments both trivial and serious. You know, I just
Speaker 1: wonder how much we kind of create drama for ourselves
Speaker 1: that are unnecessary. Like I look at the way Obama
Speaker 1: interacts with people. He is so smooth, like I've never
Speaker 1: seen if anything's awkward, he just doesn't come across that way.
Speaker 1: Like even if he says something awkward or someone doesn'ting awkward,
Speaker 1: he has a way of making the situation not at
Speaker 1: all appear that way, like it's just everything. So yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: well so something that helped me think about this is
Speaker 1: there's all this research kind of linking self focus and
Speaker 1: anxiety or like nervousness, you know, and kind of one
Speaker 1: kind of triggers the other. And then you know, like
Speaker 1: when you're nervous, you're more self focused. When you're self focused,
Speaker 1: you're more nervous, And so a lot of awkward moments
Speaker 1: can be kind of exacerbated by like you get nervous
Speaker 1: and then you start thinking about like what do I
Speaker 1: do with my hands? What do I say? You know,
Speaker 1: how am I coming across how does my hair look.
Speaker 1: And that's not helping, you know, that's just getting you
Speaker 1: farther and farther in your own head. And so I
Speaker 1: think somebody who's really smooth like that, like Obama or
Speaker 1: somebody like that, just is really good at not focusing,
Speaker 1: not getting in their own heads like that. And I mean,
Speaker 1: this is what you know, psychologists study this have told
Speaker 1: me that one way to break out of this is
Speaker 1: just to focus on anything else, you know, focus on
Speaker 1: the person in front of you, focus on you know.
Speaker 1: I wrote about this actually the other day for the Cut.
Speaker 1: I really hate doing self promotion. I'm a pretty self
Speaker 1: conscious person, but I've had to, like, you know, go
Speaker 1: out and do interviews like this and do some things
Speaker 1: on camera, and I just hate it. But one way
Speaker 1: to get over that is to kind of like separate
Speaker 1: the self, like take the self out of the self promotion,
Speaker 1: you know, and just think about it as like, don't
Speaker 1: think about yourself. I'm just trying to think about Okay,
Speaker 1: this is an interesting message I'm trying to get across.
Speaker 1: These are interesting ideas that I think are Some of
Speaker 1: them are very funny, some of them are very useful.
Speaker 1: I think they're all very interesting, and I'm just kind
Speaker 1: of the conduit to get those ideas across. So Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I think that a lot of awkwardness can be
Speaker 1: avoided for yourself and for other people if you just
Speaker 1: don't focus on yourself so much. Yeah. I know, that's
Speaker 1: great advice for like a lot of things in life. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So there was like a very seemingly simple question. Yet
Speaker 1: it's got to be thinking a lot you run there.
Speaker 1: That is a scientist who studies mirror, studies self reflections
Speaker 1: and things said, isn't it strange to think you've never
Speaker 1: seen your face as in your actual face, un needed
Speaker 1: by mirrors or pictures or videos? Now? Is there anything
Speaker 1: we could ever create where I could actually see my face?
Speaker 1: Is any technologies we can put any As soon as
Speaker 1: you introduce technology, you're suddenly removing yourself from the thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's so weird. I mean, all I can think about
Speaker 1: it is like if you could somehow like astral projection,
Speaker 1: don't I don't know, Yeah, astral present projection is probably
Speaker 1: an avenue worth exploring. Yeah, I mean that's the only
Speaker 1: because other than that, it's like you're always seeing you
Speaker 1: know yourself in a mirror or you're seeing yourself, your
Speaker 1: reflection or I photograph. I'm just trying to think of
Speaker 1: all I'm trying to think of all sorts of workarounds
Speaker 1: to this. Like my mind is just throughout the day
Speaker 1: just been like people who have really long tongues. I
Speaker 1: mean you can like touch your yeahs, Like is there
Speaker 1: can people pop out their eyeballs enough to like look
Speaker 1: at their face? You know, that's the only way I
Speaker 1: think you can do it. I got that sentence and
Speaker 1: I was like, wait, is that true? And I think
Speaker 1: that's that's good. That's it's true. Yeah, I mean it's
Speaker 1: it's it's so weird to think about. Well, it's not okay, look,
Speaker 1: it's not like like like right now, I'm seriously hung
Speaker 1: up on this. Okay, look like my like my eyes
Speaker 1: like wall, it's not true, like like I can see
Speaker 1: my hands. Yeah, there's aspects of me I can literally
Speaker 1: see that are outside of myself, right, I just can't
Speaker 1: and so people, So there's got to be a way
Speaker 1: to fix it so we can see our face. I'm
Speaker 1: seriously getting hung up on this. Like if I if
Speaker 1: I look down at my nose, I can see my nose. Wait,
Speaker 1: that's actually so so I am actually literally seeing the
Speaker 1: real nose, do you know what I mean? Like, there's
Speaker 1: got to Yeah, I think I'm going to this. No,
Speaker 1: it's it is really crazy, But to me it became
Speaker 1: this like almost like a metaphor or an interesting way
Speaker 1: to think about just the way you're presenting yourself to
Speaker 1: the world. Like you really you literally can't see all
Speaker 1: of yourself. You have to like rely on other people
Speaker 1: to get an idea of yourself, and so, you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes I think the moments that make us cringe are
Speaker 1: sometimes the moments when someone's like seeing us in an
Speaker 1: unflattering way or seeing us in a way that like,
Speaker 1: we didn't mean to have ourselves come across this way,
Speaker 1: but they're they're taking it this way and we didn't
Speaker 1: mean it, but that's how they're taking it. And it
Speaker 1: doesn't always mean we have to pay attention to it,
Speaker 1: but sometimes it can be valuable to pay attention to
Speaker 1: tell other people are seeing us because you just can't
Speaker 1: see all of yourself. And the idea about not being
Speaker 1: able to see your own face was really interesting to me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: really interesting. Thanks for getting us back on track. I
Speaker 1: started to have a panic attack that I can't see
Speaker 1: my own face, Like, that's really weird. It's really hard.
Speaker 1: I'm going to take some deep breaths. So what about
Speaker 1: the air conciliable gap. I don't know how to say
Speaker 1: that we're a reconciliable gap that Philip Rushaw talks about.
Speaker 1: Is that's basically talking about right, Yeah, that became so
Speaker 1: interesting to me. So this actually I got obsessed with
Speaker 1: this when I was writing something for Science of Us
Speaker 1: about this kind of question of why is hearing your
Speaker 1: voice on tape make you cringe? You know, that's something
Speaker 1: that like so many of us say, like, oh, I
Speaker 1: hate listening to my voice, like record version of my voice,
Speaker 1: Like I hate the journalists say this a lot. I
Speaker 1: hate listening to transcriptions of interviews. My voice sounds so stupid.
Speaker 1: And so, you know, I did a story about that
Speaker 1: for Science of Us and there's like some interesting like
Speaker 1: physiological explanation there. Your voice really does sound different like
Speaker 1: my voice I'm I'm The way I'm talking now is
Speaker 1: not the way other people hear me. And I guess
Speaker 1: it's because I'm hearing my voice through the air and
Speaker 1: through the bones of my own skull, and bone conduction
Speaker 1: transmits sound at a lower frequency than just air does.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of if a lot of people say
Speaker 1: when they hear a recorded version of their voice, like, oh,
Speaker 1: it sounds so much higher than I think I sound.
Speaker 1: So that kind of helps explain why. But then when
Speaker 1: I was writing the story about you know, why do
Speaker 1: we cringe at the sound of our own voice? You know,
Speaker 1: that kind of physiological explanation that explains why it sounds different,
Speaker 1: But why does that difference make us cringe? And so
Speaker 1: I started to think that maybe the things that make
Speaker 1: us cringe are so we kind of carry this like
Speaker 1: image of ourselves in our own head, and we think
Speaker 1: we're showing ourselves to the world this way, and then
Speaker 1: sometimes we get this picture of how other people are
Speaker 1: seeing us, and we see how other people are receiving us,
Speaker 1: and that this psychologist Felipp ro shot at Emery, he
Speaker 1: has a name for this. He calls it the irreconcilable gap.
Speaker 1: And it's this difference between ourselves concept in the way
Speaker 1: that others are perceiving us. And it's not that the
Speaker 1: way others see you is always right. You know, that
Speaker 1: would be kind of insane to suggest, but I think
Speaker 1: it's worth not always dismissing it and sometimes taking it
Speaker 1: in and saying huh, like I didn't know I was
Speaker 1: coming off that way. Interesting, notedly I really liked a term.
Speaker 1: And then sometimes Okay, I just want to works think
Speaker 1: through my head right now? Is there the difference between
Speaker 1: the way what you see and the way others see you?
Speaker 1: Can we coin a term for the gap between the
Speaker 1: way you used to see yourself and the way you
Speaker 1: see yourself now that's a different gap. Can we coin
Speaker 1: what that gap is? Because? Oh, interesting, Like I I
Speaker 1: was watching some old YouTube videos myself from interviews we're
Speaker 1: talking about like just two years ago, where I was
Speaker 1: like significantly heavier and I had the worst haircut. I
Speaker 1: think it known to humankind, and I mean as the
Speaker 1: YouTube commentators made clear, made me aware of it. But
Speaker 1: at the time I feel like I was looking at
Speaker 1: the YouTube commentators like haters. But I feel like I
Speaker 1: watched the video yesterday and I was like, oh, they
Speaker 1: were totally right, you know, like like that this is
Speaker 1: a horrible I do not like that person that I'm
Speaker 1: seeing right now. So I don't know what's that gap.
Speaker 1: I don't know what the name for that would be.
Speaker 1: But you could think of it. I guess as I
Speaker 1: suppose that could be a version of the eraconcilable gap.
Speaker 1: I mean, as I was writing this, people were kind
Speaker 1: of asking me, you know, I'm a writer and I'm
Speaker 1: friends with a lot of writers, and it's kind of
Speaker 1: a version of what you were saying. Maybe this happens
Speaker 1: to you too. But it's really common for me to
Speaker 1: come across something I wrote like five years ago and
Speaker 1: just look at it and say, like, oh gosh, like
Speaker 1: what that writing makes me cringe? Like that's so embarrassing.
Speaker 1: I can't believe that's out there. I can't believe. I
Speaker 1: was proud of it at the time, and some of
Speaker 1: my friends asked me, you know, like how do I
Speaker 1: get over that? Like how do I stop cringing at
Speaker 1: the stuff I used to write? Or or you know,
Speaker 1: maybe seeing old videos of yourself, how do I stop
Speaker 1: cringing at that? And I mean, I think maybe it's
Speaker 1: okay if you cringe at the person you used to be,
Speaker 1: because it kind of means that you've grown since then.
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe it means you've gotten a better haircut
Speaker 1: since then, or maybe you know, when I look at
Speaker 1: when I look back at you know, posts I used to.
Speaker 1: I used to write for four posts a day for
Speaker 1: Sites of Us, And sometimes I think back on those
Speaker 1: posts and I'm just like, oh, that like wasn't very
Speaker 1: good or that wasn't very thoughtful. But I'm sort of
Speaker 1: glad for that feeling because it means that it means
Speaker 1: that I've grown in those years. I wouldn't really want
Speaker 1: to look back and be like, yeah, seems good. I
Speaker 1: mean you can kind of like cringe, like with compassion
Speaker 1: for your past self, just like, oh I see you, Like,
Speaker 1: I see what you were trying to do. Good job,
Speaker 1: good job, past me. You know, past Scott. He was
Speaker 1: trying his best with that haircut, right I No, No,
Speaker 1: I was not at all trying my best. Oh funny,
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's really funny. I just didn't one
Speaker 1: of those videos for Big Thing too, that was pretty intense.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Does anyone happy the way they look
Speaker 1: in Big Thing videos? Like? No, Like, I love Big Thing.
Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong. I think they're great company, but like,
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is. It's just you up there.
Speaker 1: I mean, it kind of made me think about I
Speaker 1: love watching that. I've never thought this about. I've never
Speaker 1: I haven't watched my own videos. They just went up
Speaker 1: this week. But watching other people they seem great, but
Speaker 1: I don't think I'll watch mine. Well that's so interesting.
Speaker 1: Maybe other people watch us and they think we are great.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, like maybe maybe it really is, like it's
Speaker 1: just through our own lens. So yeah, there's a kind
Speaker 1: of like careful walk there. Like I mean, I write
Speaker 1: a little bit about the spotlight effect, which is this
Speaker 1: thing where you know, people aren't judging you as harshly
Speaker 1: as you think, or they're not noticing your your embarrassing
Speaker 1: moments as harshly as you think, but like some people
Speaker 1: still notice, so it's not they know. So yeah it's
Speaker 1: so right, So right, Okay, so let's talk about the
Speaker 1: growing edge. I like that, you know, how could people
Speaker 1: find their growing edge and challenge themselves to have more
Speaker 1: awkward conversations. Yeah, So if if you think about if cringing,
Speaker 1: if this feeling of awkwardness comes from this gap between
Speaker 1: who you think you are and who how the world
Speaker 1: is actually seeing you, then I think sometimes not all
Speaker 1: the time, but sometimes when you feel this way, it
Speaker 1: can be a signal or of an opportunity that you
Speaker 1: can maybe maybe the feeling is a signal that, like,
Speaker 1: you can grow a little bit, you can become the
Speaker 1: person that you wish that you were, you know. I
Speaker 1: mean sometimes sometimes when we say something and someone takes
Speaker 1: it the wrong way, you know, we just we just
Speaker 1: want to dig in and get defensive and say like,
Speaker 1: well I didn't mean it that way, you know, while
Speaker 1: you're taking it the wrong way. Well, okay, but they
Speaker 1: took it that way. And sometimes it's worth taking that
Speaker 1: into consideration. You know. It's not like they're always right,
Speaker 1: but I think sometimes these little moments can become little
Speaker 1: opportunities to become closer to the person that you wish
Speaker 1: you were, or the idealized version of yourself you have
Speaker 1: in your head. I love it. Well, look, I really
Speaker 1: want to thank you for making the world less awkward
Speaker 1: and helping people cope with their inevitable awkwardness. We're all,
Speaker 1: you know, all of us except for Obama. I wonder
Speaker 1: if she was ever went through an awkward stage. But anyway,
Speaker 1: I'd like to end on some of my favor you know,
Speaker 1: like a favorite quote from my guests or something. So
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna know this, there will always be awkwardness,
Speaker 1: and the only way to keep it from isolating us
Speaker 1: is if we start cringing together. Yeah, so, I thank
Speaker 1: you for cringing with me throughout this interview. It was
Speaker 1: a delision. Yeah yeah, it was really nice to talk
Speaker 1: to you. Gut bye bye. Thanks for listening to the
Speaker 1: Psychology Podcast. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you
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