WEBVTT - Changing Your Mind with Adam Grant 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:24.036 Pushkin Happy New Year's slight change listeners. New Year's resolutions 0:00:24.036 --> 0:00:27.636 can feel impossible to keep, But in the last few years, 0:00:27.756 --> 0:00:30.476 I've made it a point to internalize research insights from 0:00:30.476 --> 0:00:33.676 behavioral science, and they've helped me set smarter goals and 0:00:33.756 --> 0:00:36.916 actually stick to them. And so we've decided to go 0:00:36.956 --> 0:00:39.916 back into the archives and share interviews with experts who 0:00:39.956 --> 0:00:44.036 delve deep into some useful strategies for making change. They'll 0:00:44.076 --> 0:00:46.716 give you the practical tools and motivation to not only 0:00:46.756 --> 0:00:49.996 set great goals, but to sustain your commitments well into 0:00:50.036 --> 0:00:53.396 twenty twenty three. One thing that can hold us back 0:00:53.436 --> 0:00:56.316 from becoming better versions of ourselves is when we stubbornly 0:00:56.396 --> 0:00:59.916 cling to old beliefs and ways of thinking. So today 0:01:00.036 --> 0:01:03.236 we'll hear from my friend Adam Grant, a psychologist and 0:01:03.316 --> 0:01:06.276 author of the book Think Again, The Power of Knowing 0:01:06.436 --> 0:01:09.796 what you don't Know. Adam gives us strategies for cultivating 0:01:09.836 --> 0:01:12.916 a more open mind. As always, i'd love to hear 0:01:12.956 --> 0:01:15.916 which insights resonate most with you. You can connect with 0:01:15.956 --> 0:01:30.276 me on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. People generally assume 0:01:30.476 --> 0:01:32.716 that they're less biased than others. Right, this is my 0:01:32.756 --> 0:01:36.036 favorite bias. It's I'm not biased biased right, everybody else 0:01:36.116 --> 0:01:40.836 is biased. I am objective. I see things with perfect neutrality. 0:01:41.436 --> 0:01:44.476 That's Adam Grant. He's a psychologist and author of the 0:01:44.476 --> 0:01:48.116 book Think Again, and he's talking here about a surprising 0:01:48.156 --> 0:01:51.516 feature of our own psychology that prevents us from changing 0:01:51.516 --> 0:01:54.476 our minds even when we should. And I think that 0:01:54.996 --> 0:01:57.436 the higher your intelligence, the more likely you are to 0:01:57.556 --> 0:02:00.356 fall victim to that bias. They're smarter you are, the 0:02:00.436 --> 0:02:02.996 more feedback you've gotten throughout your life that you're right, 0:02:03.436 --> 0:02:06.476 and that gives you an illusion of objectivity. I wanted 0:02:06.516 --> 0:02:08.596 to talk with Adam because he's an expert on the 0:02:08.636 --> 0:02:11.836 science of changing people's minds, a topic we've been diving 0:02:11.836 --> 0:02:14.436 into on this season of A Slight Change of Plans. 0:02:16.476 --> 0:02:19.276 We all have that friend, that family member that we 0:02:19.356 --> 0:02:22.356 disagree with on something, and it can feel daunting to 0:02:22.476 --> 0:02:25.796 engage with them on the topic, so daunting that oftentimes 0:02:25.876 --> 0:02:28.876 we just give up. In this episode, we're trying to 0:02:28.996 --> 0:02:32.596 change that. Adam and I discuss science based tactics that 0:02:32.636 --> 0:02:36.396 you can use to approach these conversations differently and hopefully 0:02:36.396 --> 0:02:40.156 with more success. I'm Maya Shunker and this is a 0:02:40.156 --> 0:03:04.316 slight change of plans. Well, it's great to meet you, Adam. 0:03:04.436 --> 0:03:07.236 Great to meet you. I've been hearing about you for years. 0:03:07.716 --> 0:03:10.356 I'm so excited that you're you're able to join us 0:03:10.396 --> 0:03:13.836 for this podcast. I'm just eager to pick your brain today. Well, 0:03:13.836 --> 0:03:17.036 my brain is sitting here waiting to be picked. Awesome. Okay. 0:03:17.556 --> 0:03:21.236 We don't like changing our minds, right, It's uncomfortable. It 0:03:21.276 --> 0:03:23.796 can create a lot of cognitive dissonance. It takes a 0:03:23.836 --> 0:03:26.596 lot of hard work, and so it's just easier to 0:03:26.636 --> 0:03:31.076 live our lives in an unreflective mode where we persistently 0:03:31.116 --> 0:03:33.356 believe what we believe and we double down, and we 0:03:33.396 --> 0:03:35.796 surround ourselves with people who help us double down on 0:03:35.836 --> 0:03:38.996 those beliefs over time. Yeah. And one of the things 0:03:38.996 --> 0:03:41.436 that I loved about the focus of your book is 0:03:41.476 --> 0:03:44.956 that it opens with ideas of how we can get 0:03:44.996 --> 0:03:48.996 ourselves to have an more open mind, ourselves to rethink things. 0:03:49.636 --> 0:03:52.676 So one reason you say that we might not be 0:03:52.716 --> 0:03:56.636 open to rethinking is because we're overconfident, And you talk 0:03:56.676 --> 0:04:01.596 in your book about not confusing over confidence with competence. 0:04:02.196 --> 0:04:04.236 Do you mind saying a bit more about that? Sure? 0:04:04.436 --> 0:04:09.636 I think when people are lacking knowledge or skill. Sometimes 0:04:09.676 --> 0:04:12.076 they also don't know what knowledge or skill looks like 0:04:12.156 --> 0:04:15.436 in that domain. Right, So if you know nothing, let's say, 0:04:15.756 --> 0:04:18.396 I always think about a Super Bowl party. You gather 0:04:18.436 --> 0:04:21.276 a bunch of football fans, and there's always one who's 0:04:21.316 --> 0:04:24.156 screaming at the coach for calling the wrong place. That 0:04:24.316 --> 0:04:26.596 is usually the fan who knows the least about football. 0:04:27.076 --> 0:04:29.716 But it's a fan, it's not somebody who's, you know, 0:04:29.756 --> 0:04:31.956 who's not at all interested in the game, because they're 0:04:32.036 --> 0:04:34.116 not like me, who's just sitting at the food table 0:04:34.316 --> 0:04:37.996 perfeting the entire time. Exactly. Yeah, you know that you 0:04:38.076 --> 0:04:40.716 know nothing. I'm not weighing in. No, you and you shouldn't, right, 0:04:41.396 --> 0:04:43.836 But if you if you watched a couple of games 0:04:43.956 --> 0:04:46.476 and you learned a little bit about football, that's when 0:04:46.476 --> 0:04:49.836 that tiny bit of knowledge can become a little bit dangerous, 0:04:49.996 --> 0:04:53.116 right because it what starts to happen is as your 0:04:53.156 --> 0:04:56.636 knowledge grows, you confuse your rate of learning for how 0:04:56.716 --> 0:04:59.756 much you've actually learned, and your confidence rises faster than 0:04:59.796 --> 0:05:02.916 your competence, and pretty soon you're trapped on the summit 0:05:02.916 --> 0:05:07.756 of Mount stupid, where you know very little but you 0:05:07.916 --> 0:05:10.996 don't know how little, you know. Yeah, you mentioned your 0:05:11.036 --> 0:05:14.516 book that imposter syndrome gets a bad rap, but actually 0:05:14.516 --> 0:05:18.076 there might be some silver linings to fueling imposter syndrome. 0:05:18.116 --> 0:05:20.476 Can you say a bit more about that, Yeah, I 0:05:22.476 --> 0:05:25.756 kind of. I was struck by this paradox that when 0:05:25.796 --> 0:05:28.476 you look at where imposter syndrome exists, one of the 0:05:28.476 --> 0:05:32.556 places it's most prevalent is among high achievers. And I 0:05:32.556 --> 0:05:35.316 think a lot of people have assumed that they've succeeded 0:05:35.356 --> 0:05:38.396 in spite of their doubts. And I started to wonder 0:05:38.436 --> 0:05:41.876 whether their doubts are actually helping to fuel their success. Well, 0:05:41.916 --> 0:05:43.956 maybe we don't have to turn this into a syndrome. 0:05:44.036 --> 0:05:46.036 Right when you call it imposter syndrome, it's like you 0:05:46.116 --> 0:05:49.556 have some kind of chronic disease, that is, it's just 0:05:49.676 --> 0:05:52.396 abilitating and it's with you at all times. We ended 0:05:52.436 --> 0:05:54.676 up having a doctoral student at Wark and Besimatofickho is 0:05:54.676 --> 0:05:58.916 now an MT professor, and she studied how often people 0:05:59.276 --> 0:06:03.356 doubt themselves. She studied investment professionals and medical professionals and 0:06:03.516 --> 0:06:07.196 found no consistent costs of having more frequent imposter thoughts 0:06:07.596 --> 0:06:11.276 and some surprising benefit the investment professionals when they felt 0:06:11.276 --> 0:06:14.356 like imposters more often, they actually made better decisions. The 0:06:14.516 --> 0:06:18.316 medical professionals who felt like imposters more often, they actually 0:06:18.396 --> 0:06:21.756 listened to their patients. And what was happening was when 0:06:21.876 --> 0:06:25.556 people felt those imposter thoughts, their confidence was a little 0:06:25.556 --> 0:06:28.396 bit below their competence, and that led them to work 0:06:28.436 --> 0:06:30.996 harder to prove themselves. It led them to work smarter 0:06:31.196 --> 0:06:33.516 to learn new things, and it made them much more 0:06:33.636 --> 0:06:36.196 receptive to listening to other people, which filled gaps in 0:06:36.236 --> 0:06:40.436 their knowledge. And it almost makes me think that instead 0:06:40.476 --> 0:06:42.996 of trying to have our confidence match our competence perfectly, 0:06:43.316 --> 0:06:48.556 we are better off slightly underestimating ourselves. You know, there's 0:06:48.556 --> 0:06:50.956 a tension that can emerge here, right because I'm thinking about, 0:06:51.596 --> 0:06:54.836 for example, communities of color who fall prey to stereotype 0:06:54.836 --> 0:06:58.516 threat and the fact that boosting confidence in those cases 0:06:58.596 --> 0:07:02.076 is really productive because in many ways they're starting off 0:07:02.196 --> 0:07:06.036 in an unreasonable position relative to their actual abilities, and 0:07:06.196 --> 0:07:09.636 so well, one, I'm just wondering, in those studies were done, 0:07:10.156 --> 0:07:12.396 what were the demographics of the group. And two, in 0:07:12.516 --> 0:07:17.956 terms of prescriptions, where is that appropriate line between humility 0:07:17.996 --> 0:07:21.956 and confidence, Especially because some of these psychological effects can 0:07:22.036 --> 0:07:26.196 disproportionately hit different communities. Yeah, I think I think that's 0:07:26.196 --> 0:07:29.476 a really important question. And I think Basima had good 0:07:29.556 --> 0:07:31.916 data on gender less on race, but when she looked 0:07:31.956 --> 0:07:35.916 at gender differences, the odds were greater that women were 0:07:36.396 --> 0:07:40.036 sort of discouraged or debilitated by very frequent imposter thoughts 0:07:40.956 --> 0:07:43.516 and men were much more likely to be motivated by them. 0:07:43.676 --> 0:07:45.756 And I think that tracks with everything we know about 0:07:46.396 --> 0:07:49.436 about basically the world I live in as a white man, 0:07:49.516 --> 0:07:52.756 which is people take for granted that I'm competent, whereas 0:07:52.836 --> 0:07:54.636 if you grow up as a woman, and I think 0:07:54.676 --> 0:07:57.356 this is obviously the case for people of color as well. 0:07:58.356 --> 0:08:00.876 It's you know, you have to prove your competence every day, 0:08:01.276 --> 0:08:04.356 and those doubts because other people are doubting you are 0:08:04.476 --> 0:08:07.076 more likely to get internalized over time. And I think 0:08:07.116 --> 0:08:09.036 you're spot on that we need to work harder to 0:08:09.236 --> 0:08:13.116 build confidence among people who are not white men. Does 0:08:13.196 --> 0:08:16.076 that Does that track with your experience? Yeah? I think 0:08:16.116 --> 0:08:20.116 it's it is I would Freeman is just really complex. 0:08:20.756 --> 0:08:23.956 I mean, obviously there's no one size fits all approach here, 0:08:24.156 --> 0:08:27.676 but I do think that there are profound public policy implications, 0:08:27.756 --> 0:08:29.516 right because if we're going on the road with a 0:08:29.596 --> 0:08:33.276 message of imposter syndromes good. We might find that that 0:08:33.356 --> 0:08:38.636 has a disproportionately negative effect on some subsets of the population, right, women, 0:08:38.756 --> 0:08:40.996 people of color, etc. And so we just have to 0:08:41.076 --> 0:08:43.756 be careful about the messaging. I almost want the messaging 0:08:43.836 --> 0:08:49.276 to be imposter syndrome is good, white men. You know, 0:08:49.476 --> 0:08:52.116 I think a disclaimer is critical here. I would just 0:08:52.276 --> 0:08:55.196 I would rewrite that message completely. You don't have to 0:08:55.236 --> 0:08:58.636 take imposter syndrome as a curse. You can recognize that 0:08:58.676 --> 0:09:00.476 it's a double edged sword, and you can try to 0:09:01.036 --> 0:09:03.156 get some of those benefits of doubt to say, Okay, 0:09:03.676 --> 0:09:06.516 you know what, the fact that I am questioning myself 0:09:06.916 --> 0:09:09.436 means I'm not going to get complacent, and I've that's 0:09:09.516 --> 0:09:11.676 that's the message that I want to get across. Yeah, 0:09:11.756 --> 0:09:14.316 that makes sense. One of my favorite parts of the 0:09:14.356 --> 0:09:17.036 book was the fact that a smarter a person is, 0:09:17.556 --> 0:09:20.236 the faster they recognize patterns, and so the more likely 0:09:20.356 --> 0:09:25.636 they are to notice and reinforce stereotypes. So you also 0:09:25.716 --> 0:09:29.916 mentioned that the smarter you are, the more likely you 0:09:29.996 --> 0:09:32.396 are to struggle with updating your beliefs, right, to be 0:09:32.516 --> 0:09:36.676 willing to rethink so what is the mechanism at play 0:09:36.796 --> 0:09:40.636 in that ladder finding that would make that so well? 0:09:40.916 --> 0:09:44.196 People generally assume that they're less biased than others, right, 0:09:44.236 --> 0:09:47.316 This is my favorite bias. It's the I'm not biased biased, Right, 0:09:47.356 --> 0:09:51.116 everybody else is biased. I am objective. I see things 0:09:51.316 --> 0:09:55.956 with perfect neutrality. And I think that the higher your intelligence, 0:09:56.036 --> 0:09:57.956 the more likely you are to fall victim to that 0:09:58.076 --> 0:10:01.676 bias in the data. And I think there's probably the 0:10:01.796 --> 0:10:04.676 jury is still out on what the different mechanisms might be, 0:10:04.796 --> 0:10:06.956 but I think I think one of them is that 0:10:07.596 --> 0:10:10.196 the smarter you are, the more feedback you've gotten throughout 0:10:10.196 --> 0:10:12.716 your life that you're right, and that gives you an 0:10:12.756 --> 0:10:17.396 illusion of objectivity. What you know, what you're consistent right 0:10:17.436 --> 0:10:21.876 answers or a pluses or you know, genius level, like 0:10:22.076 --> 0:10:24.516 you're the smartest person I've ever met. Feedback, Yeah, is 0:10:24.556 --> 0:10:27.556 really signaling is that you're good at thinking and learning, 0:10:27.916 --> 0:10:30.516 not that you're objective in the way that you process information. 0:10:30.796 --> 0:10:34.356 And I think people miss that distinction. Yeah, it's it's 0:10:34.356 --> 0:10:38.396 a reflection back to you. Ah. So the current mechanisms 0:10:38.436 --> 0:10:41.236 that I use to analyze information in the world are 0:10:41.276 --> 0:10:44.156 paying off because I keep getting the A plus. So 0:10:44.316 --> 0:10:48.676 clearly something's going well here exactly. Yeah, you're getting positive feedback. Interesting. Yeah, 0:10:48.716 --> 0:10:52.436 it reminds me I interviewed Megan Phelps Roper, who was 0:10:52.556 --> 0:10:55.476 part of the Westboro Baptist Church, which is a religious cult, 0:10:55.996 --> 0:10:59.036 and she eventually ended up leaving in her mid twenties. 0:10:59.196 --> 0:11:02.316 But I think one thing that compelled her to stay 0:11:02.356 --> 0:11:03.876 for so long is that she grew up in a 0:11:03.956 --> 0:11:08.636 family of lawyers. They were all very very smart, highly 0:11:08.756 --> 0:11:15.116 educated did and their pride point was constructing these very 0:11:15.516 --> 0:11:19.116 logical arguments, and I mean logical in the definitional sense 0:11:19.156 --> 0:11:22.516 of the word. And as a result, I think there 0:11:22.716 --> 0:11:25.956 was some sort of reinforcing that was happening within the 0:11:26.076 --> 0:11:30.916 Phelps family. They're using sophisticated patterns and thinking and analysis, 0:11:31.636 --> 0:11:35.876 but because again their axioms or batshit crazy, they're reaching 0:11:35.916 --> 0:11:39.116 the wrong conclusions, but they are in their minds doubling 0:11:39.236 --> 0:11:43.956 down on those conclusions. Do you have thoughts on that? Yeah. 0:11:44.036 --> 0:11:45.756 I think one of the other risks of growing up 0:11:45.756 --> 0:11:48.036 in a family like that is you're taught from an 0:11:48.036 --> 0:11:52.316 early age to make your own arguments, and we forget 0:11:52.396 --> 0:11:54.716 that when you make an argument to persuade someone else. 0:11:54.956 --> 0:11:58.556 The person you're most likely to persuade is yourself because 0:11:58.676 --> 0:12:01.716 you trust yourself, right, you are a highly credible source 0:12:01.796 --> 0:12:04.396 in your own eyes, and you also came up with 0:12:04.476 --> 0:12:07.356 the reasons that you found most convincing, and as you 0:12:07.476 --> 0:12:09.836 explain them, you start to take ownership from them, right. 0:12:09.916 --> 0:12:12.076 Part of that is cognitive dissonance. Well, I've said this 0:12:12.196 --> 0:12:14.796 out loud. I don't want to be a hypocrite, so 0:12:15.036 --> 0:12:18.476 now it becomes part of my belief system. And another 0:12:18.596 --> 0:12:23.436 reason why we do feel so much Adjita, when it 0:12:23.476 --> 0:12:25.836 comes to admitting that we're wrong, is that we get 0:12:26.636 --> 0:12:30.636 deeply attached to quote our past selves who held those beliefs, 0:12:31.396 --> 0:12:33.516 and we do feel like a departure from that past 0:12:33.556 --> 0:12:36.956 self in some way poses a full on identity threat. 0:12:37.676 --> 0:12:39.996 So can you say more about the importance of trying 0:12:40.076 --> 0:12:44.596 to detach yourself from your past self. Yeah, there's there's 0:12:44.636 --> 0:12:46.916 a growing body of evidence in psychology that people who 0:12:47.036 --> 0:12:50.756 feel quote unquote derailed that you know, I'm not I'm 0:12:50.756 --> 0:12:52.916 not quite the same person I was two or three 0:12:52.996 --> 0:12:56.956 years ago, they actually end up getting happier that you know. 0:12:56.996 --> 0:12:59.636 There's a little bit of a period of feeling unsettled, 0:13:00.756 --> 0:13:02.996 but then they realize, oh, I'm not going to let 0:13:03.116 --> 0:13:05.916 my old ideas of who I wanted to be hold 0:13:05.996 --> 0:13:08.156 me back. And I think one of the easiest ways 0:13:08.236 --> 0:13:11.916 to get comfortable with with rethinking is to detach your 0:13:11.916 --> 0:13:14.956 current self from your old self. So there are so 0:13:15.076 --> 0:13:17.516 many times when I've looked back at my old decisions 0:13:17.636 --> 0:13:21.716 and opinions, I'm like, Wow, I should be really embarrassed 0:13:21.756 --> 0:13:24.356 by that. How can I possibly think that? And yet 0:13:25.276 --> 0:13:28.356 I mostly just laugh at myself because I don't think 0:13:28.396 --> 0:13:31.276 I'm the same person. Yes, I realize I have fundamentally 0:13:31.556 --> 0:13:33.676 the same brain and the same body, right, and it's 0:13:33.716 --> 0:13:35.876 still me. But I think I've grown and evolved in 0:13:35.916 --> 0:13:37.596 a lot of ways from that version of me, and 0:13:37.716 --> 0:13:41.036 so I don't feel like what I did, the ideas 0:13:41.076 --> 0:13:43.236 I had about my future and the opinions I held 0:13:43.356 --> 0:13:46.596 at twenty one are reflective of who I am now 0:13:46.676 --> 0:13:48.996 at thirty nine, even though some of my values are 0:13:49.116 --> 0:13:53.276 very similar. One interesting flip on this, it's reminding me 0:13:53.356 --> 0:13:56.596 so in this interview with Megan fels Roper, who was mentioning, 0:13:57.196 --> 0:13:59.956 I asked her, I said, when you look back on 0:14:00.036 --> 0:14:02.596 your life, right, you have this in the Westboro Baptist 0:14:02.716 --> 0:14:05.356 Church and then post Westboro Baptist Church like this total 0:14:05.476 --> 0:14:09.596 life split moment. Is it jarring to remember that you 0:14:09.756 --> 0:14:12.676 are that same Megan? And so one thing I found 0:14:12.756 --> 0:14:16.676 fascinating about her experience is that she makes an intentional 0:14:16.756 --> 0:14:20.196 effort not to distance herself from that Megan. And the 0:14:20.316 --> 0:14:22.876 reason for that is she can both acknowledge that she 0:14:22.956 --> 0:14:27.316 has different views today, but reminding herself a former Megan 0:14:27.516 --> 0:14:31.676 helps her continue to have empathy towards people who continue 0:14:31.716 --> 0:14:34.556 to think like old Megan. And in order for her 0:14:34.596 --> 0:14:37.316 to do the anti extremist work she does today, she 0:14:37.516 --> 0:14:41.796 also has to have that posture of understanding and empathy 0:14:42.036 --> 0:14:44.796 because she needs to remember what it was like to 0:14:45.156 --> 0:14:50.716 feel persuaded by terrible ideas. That is fascinating. Yeah, it 0:14:50.796 --> 0:14:53.996 kind of blew me away that answer. Yeah, I mean 0:14:54.556 --> 0:14:58.316 the idea that you could you could still accept that, 0:14:59.076 --> 0:15:03.636 you know, sort of unacceptable version of past you and say, yeah, 0:15:03.756 --> 0:15:07.156 you know, I'm not totally different from that anymore while 0:15:07.196 --> 0:15:10.636 still changing your values in your I mean that that 0:15:10.956 --> 0:15:14.236 is that is walking proof of what is it? The 0:15:14.476 --> 0:15:17.996 is it? The f Scott Fitzgerald line that the sign 0:15:18.036 --> 0:15:20.756 of intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas 0:15:20.756 --> 0:15:22.436 in your mind at the same time and retain the 0:15:22.476 --> 0:15:25.796 ability to function like that. That's it. She has two 0:15:25.876 --> 0:15:31.876 opposing identities, one recently abandoned, one relatively recently adopted, that 0:15:32.076 --> 0:15:34.996 she is keeping in some kind of dynamic tension. I 0:15:35.116 --> 0:15:38.836 don't think. I can't imagine doing that, honestly. I think that. 0:15:39.116 --> 0:15:41.356 I mean, we all have multiple identities, right, But to 0:15:41.476 --> 0:15:45.116 have such conflicting values and beliefs and and say yeah, 0:15:45.276 --> 0:15:48.516 one is one is me now, one is me before, 0:15:48.636 --> 0:15:51.676 but it's not that different from you now. The equanimity 0:15:51.796 --> 0:15:54.956 required to do that, I think is extraordinary. Can't imagine 0:15:54.996 --> 0:15:59.036 it exactly. Another reason that it's hard for a lot 0:15:59.076 --> 0:16:01.356 of people to admit that they're wrong is that we 0:16:01.516 --> 0:16:05.236 tend to strongly attach our opinions to our sense of identity. 0:16:05.676 --> 0:16:07.516 And you challenge this in the book, right, you say 0:16:08.036 --> 0:16:11.356 you should really be defining your identity in terms of values, 0:16:11.516 --> 0:16:15.596 not opinions. To me, that's kind of a blurry line, 0:16:15.876 --> 0:16:19.316 like how are you defining the difference between a value 0:16:19.716 --> 0:16:22.836 and an opinion? And shouldn't we also be open minded 0:16:22.836 --> 0:16:26.636 about our value systems because obviously we see huge variation 0:16:26.836 --> 0:16:29.436 in moral values across cultures, in addition to the fact 0:16:29.516 --> 0:16:32.436 that when we do do that thought experiment of if 0:16:32.476 --> 0:16:34.316 I were born in a different century, or in a 0:16:34.396 --> 0:16:37.996 different family, or you know, growing up in a different religion, 0:16:38.036 --> 0:16:41.276 we would have wildly different values. And so I would 0:16:41.356 --> 0:16:44.196 I guess I would want to cultivate a same openness 0:16:44.356 --> 0:16:48.476 to changes in one's value system. You're willing to change 0:16:48.556 --> 0:16:51.116 those fundamental beliefs. I think, I think that's a good point, 0:16:51.196 --> 0:16:53.676 and I'm definitely open to rethinking what I wrote in 0:16:53.756 --> 0:16:55.516 the book. It would be ironic if I weren't. It 0:16:55.596 --> 0:16:59.276 gets very met up, very quickly. But I think I 0:16:59.396 --> 0:17:02.676 think I agree with you. I think that I might 0:17:02.796 --> 0:17:05.916 make one distinction before I agree, which is to say, 0:17:06.076 --> 0:17:09.836 when I think about values, to me, the core definition 0:17:09.916 --> 0:17:12.956 of a value is what you think is important, and 0:17:13.156 --> 0:17:15.596 the definition of a belief or an opinion is what 0:17:15.716 --> 0:17:18.676 you think is true. And when you do that that 0:17:18.836 --> 0:17:22.716 counterfactual thinking exercise where you imagine, yeah, would I believe 0:17:22.796 --> 0:17:24.756 different things if I was raised in a different family, 0:17:24.916 --> 0:17:26.956 or in a different country, or in a different point 0:17:26.996 --> 0:17:30.836 in history. You're not necessarily rethinking your values. You're definitely 0:17:30.916 --> 0:17:34.316 rethinking your beliefs, right, And yeah, I think Okay, sorry, 0:17:35.276 --> 0:17:37.396 So I think I disagree with that. I do think 0:17:37.596 --> 0:17:42.036 that you are changing potentially what's important to you through 0:17:42.116 --> 0:17:45.116 some of these exercises, depending on your exposure. So, for example, 0:17:45.156 --> 0:17:48.636 I can imagine so in the United States, huge sanctity 0:17:48.676 --> 0:17:51.996 when it comes to life, right, we care about existence, 0:17:52.076 --> 0:17:54.956 we care about life. I talk to my Indian relatives 0:17:55.036 --> 0:17:59.236 and they're far more concerned with quality of life and suffering, right, 0:17:59.316 --> 0:18:02.356 So that is like what's important to them. And so 0:18:02.756 --> 0:18:06.196 over the course of my life, I have evolved and 0:18:06.316 --> 0:18:09.396 I have started to value like, what's important to me 0:18:09.516 --> 0:18:13.516 now is much more about suffering than existence, and that 0:18:13.796 --> 0:18:17.156 would inform my opinions, but it is my fundamental view 0:18:17.156 --> 0:18:19.836 about what's important or not. Yeah, I think I think 0:18:19.876 --> 0:18:22.996 you're right. I think I think that's less likely to 0:18:23.116 --> 0:18:25.636 change though. I think it's slower to change, right, because 0:18:25.956 --> 0:18:28.916 it's deeper seated, And that's where that's where I think 0:18:28.956 --> 0:18:32.156 you're spot on that. I don't think our values should 0:18:32.156 --> 0:18:35.596 be set in stone, right. Sometimes sometimes people end up 0:18:35.636 --> 0:18:38.316 choosing values that are harmful to themselves and or others. 0:18:39.196 --> 0:18:42.756 But I think we should rethink those a little bit 0:18:42.836 --> 0:18:46.076 less frequently and maybe with stronger reasons, right. I think 0:18:46.116 --> 0:18:49.916 that to me, opinions should just be tentative period. Right. 0:18:49.996 --> 0:18:51.836 You should walk around with a set of things that 0:18:51.916 --> 0:18:54.476 you think are true, and the moment you come across 0:18:54.676 --> 0:18:57.716 better data and sharper logic, you should say, all right, 0:18:58.356 --> 0:19:01.036 maybe I should revisit that. I don't think you should 0:19:01.036 --> 0:19:03.196 be willing to flip flop on your values every day 0:19:03.276 --> 0:19:05.196 or every week. Right. That feels like more of a 0:19:05.316 --> 0:19:08.236 once a year kind of exercise to reflect on how 0:19:08.396 --> 0:19:10.876 is what is what's important to me changing? And I 0:19:10.956 --> 0:19:13.116 think that that kind of rethinking ought to be a 0:19:13.236 --> 0:19:18.476 more deliberate and maybe even slower process. I agree with that. 0:19:18.596 --> 0:19:22.236 I think the cadence along which we revisit our values 0:19:22.396 --> 0:19:24.756 is going to be far less frequent as it should be, because, 0:19:24.796 --> 0:19:27.916 like you said, they're more deeply entrenched in our systems. 0:19:28.116 --> 0:19:30.036 I guess the reason I care so deeply about this 0:19:30.196 --> 0:19:32.676 is I think that the values people hold can also 0:19:32.756 --> 0:19:35.436 be really pernicious if they are the wrong ones, and 0:19:35.596 --> 0:19:39.236 so compelling people to try to revisit their values on 0:19:39.276 --> 0:19:44.236 occasion it can have transformative effects on society. I think 0:19:44.276 --> 0:19:46.876 you're right on that too. I think I'm less optimistic 0:19:47.156 --> 0:19:49.196 than you are about how easy it is to compel 0:19:49.276 --> 0:19:51.036 people to change their values. Say, I didn't say I 0:19:51.116 --> 0:19:53.916 was optimistic about it. I just care about it. Well, 0:19:54.396 --> 0:19:56.356 I care about it too, and I just I think 0:19:56.356 --> 0:20:02.196 it's incredibly difficult to even invite people to rethink their values. Yeah, 0:20:02.556 --> 0:20:05.236 this is why I'm obsessed with the moral reframing research 0:20:05.356 --> 0:20:08.436 that's coming out. Basically, it says, look, hold the values fixed, 0:20:08.476 --> 0:20:11.996 assume those are constant to your earlier point, but present 0:20:12.116 --> 0:20:14.276 them in a new way. Right. So it's like, okay, 0:20:14.316 --> 0:20:17.836 you want folks to care about the environment. Right to liberals, 0:20:18.396 --> 0:20:21.196 you frame it as like, okay, we can save the environment, 0:20:21.276 --> 0:20:23.876 we will help the underprivileged among us rise up, you know, 0:20:23.996 --> 0:20:28.076 social equality. And then with conservatives, it's patriotic to save 0:20:28.156 --> 0:20:30.876 our planet. It can help create new jobs, to invest 0:20:30.956 --> 0:20:35.356 in climate change, or even we need to protect the 0:20:35.556 --> 0:20:39.596 purity of God's Earth. Right, It's such. It's a completely 0:20:39.756 --> 0:20:43.516 different kind of argument, but it reaches the same ends. So, okay, 0:20:43.556 --> 0:20:46.436 so we're on this opening our mind journey. Right, So 0:20:46.516 --> 0:20:49.556 we're now at the point where we are we are 0:20:49.556 --> 0:20:51.916 aware of the benefits of having a more open mind, 0:20:51.956 --> 0:20:54.356 and you've given us some strategies for how to do that. 0:20:54.996 --> 0:20:57.916 One thing that can prevent us from admitting that we're 0:20:57.916 --> 0:21:01.716 wrong is pride. Right. We don't like admitting that we're wrong. 0:21:02.116 --> 0:21:06.116 It's uncomfortable. We sometimes feel that we will lose credibility 0:21:06.196 --> 0:21:10.116 with other people we express that we're wrong or express vulnerability, 0:21:10.516 --> 0:21:13.076 and the research doesn't corroborate that. Can you say more 0:21:13.076 --> 0:21:16.116 about it? Yeah? I mean you see this. There's a 0:21:16.156 --> 0:21:19.196 whole literature on scientists saying, you know what, I made 0:21:19.196 --> 0:21:21.756 a mistake in my published paper, and it turns out 0:21:21.836 --> 0:21:25.756 that they're perceived more positively afterward. Going back half a century, 0:21:25.956 --> 0:21:29.236 there's a lot of research on the pratfall effect showing 0:21:29.316 --> 0:21:32.036 that if a successful person fails or makes a mistake, 0:21:32.516 --> 0:21:35.596 people actually like them more. They don't ding them for 0:21:35.676 --> 0:21:37.836 confidence at all, and now they see them as human 0:21:37.916 --> 0:21:41.996 and relatable and approachable instead of being untouchable. I think 0:21:43.036 --> 0:21:45.716 one of the things I've I've realized over time is 0:21:46.516 --> 0:21:48.756 that the faster you are to admit when you're wrong, 0:21:49.076 --> 0:21:51.996 the faster you can move toward being right. And that's 0:21:51.996 --> 0:21:53.796 where we all want to land right. We'd like to 0:21:53.876 --> 0:21:55.996 be right more often, and that means you have to 0:21:56.076 --> 0:21:59.796 be quicker to at least internally right, see those moments 0:21:59.876 --> 0:22:01.796 when you were wrong, But then if you don't ever 0:22:01.876 --> 0:22:05.356 admit them out loud, then you're continuing to stigmatize the behavior. 0:22:05.716 --> 0:22:08.836 And saying I was wrong is the equivalent of admitting 0:22:08.876 --> 0:22:13.276 to or showing weakness or signaling a lack of intelligence, 0:22:13.356 --> 0:22:16.236 as opposed to actually signaling that you have confident humility, 0:22:16.516 --> 0:22:19.076 which is I am secure enough in my expertise and 0:22:19.196 --> 0:22:22.036 my strengths to be willing to be forthcoming about all 0:22:22.076 --> 0:22:25.996 the things I got wrong and didn't know, and gosh, 0:22:26.076 --> 0:22:27.676 I would love to live in a world where that 0:22:27.796 --> 0:22:33.076 was the norm rather than the exception. After the break, 0:22:33.196 --> 0:22:36.276 Adam and I discussed tactics for changing other people's minds. 0:22:47.676 --> 0:22:50.316 So I would love to talk a little bit deeper 0:22:50.476 --> 0:22:53.396 about how it is that we can change other people's minds. 0:22:53.996 --> 0:22:55.636 So I'm going to set the scene for you. Okay, 0:22:55.756 --> 0:23:00.916 we are We're at the proverbial Thanksgiving dinner. Okay, I'm 0:23:00.996 --> 0:23:04.236 dreading the dinner because the proverbial aunt uncle is at 0:23:04.276 --> 0:23:08.316 the table, and every year I have felt enraged by 0:23:08.516 --> 0:23:12.556 their political beliefs. This is not a hypothetical example. Is yeah, 0:23:12.556 --> 0:23:15.716