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Speaker 1: Pushkin Happy New Year's slight change listeners. New Year's resolutions

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Speaker 1: can feel impossible to keep, But in the last few years,

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Speaker 1: I've made it a point to internalize research insights from

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Speaker 1: behavioral science, and they've helped me set smarter goals and

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Speaker 1: actually stick to them. And so we've decided to go

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Speaker 1: back into the archives and share interviews with experts who

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Speaker 1: delve deep into some useful strategies for making change. They'll

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Speaker 1: give you the practical tools and motivation to not only

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Speaker 1: set great goals, but to sustain your commitments well into

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. One thing that can hold us back

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Speaker 1: from becoming better versions of ourselves is when we stubbornly

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Speaker 1: cling to old beliefs and ways of thinking. So today

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Speaker 1: we'll hear from my friend Adam Grant, a psychologist and

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Speaker 1: author of the book Think Again, The Power of Knowing

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Speaker 1: what you don't Know. Adam gives us strategies for cultivating

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Speaker 1: a more open mind. As always, i'd love to hear

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Speaker 1: which insights resonate most with you. You can connect with

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Speaker 1: me on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. People generally assume

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Speaker 1: that they're less biased than others. Right, this is my

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Speaker 1: favorite bias. It's I'm not biased biased right, everybody else

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Speaker 1: is biased. I am objective. I see things with perfect neutrality.

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Speaker 1: That's Adam Grant. He's a psychologist and author of the

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Speaker 1: book Think Again, and he's talking here about a surprising

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Speaker 1: feature of our own psychology that prevents us from changing

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Speaker 1: our minds even when we should. And I think that

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Speaker 1: the higher your intelligence, the more likely you are to

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Speaker 1: fall victim to that bias. They're smarter you are, the

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Speaker 1: more feedback you've gotten throughout your life that you're right,

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Speaker 1: and that gives you an illusion of objectivity. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk with Adam because he's an expert on the

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Speaker 1: science of changing people's minds, a topic we've been diving

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Speaker 1: into on this season of A Slight Change of Plans.

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Speaker 1: We all have that friend, that family member that we

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Speaker 1: disagree with on something, and it can feel daunting to

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Speaker 1: engage with them on the topic, so daunting that oftentimes

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Speaker 1: we just give up. In this episode, we're trying to

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Speaker 1: change that. Adam and I discuss science based tactics that

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Speaker 1: you can use to approach these conversations differently and hopefully

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Speaker 1: with more success. I'm Maya Shunker and this is a

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Speaker 1: slight change of plans. Well, it's great to meet you, Adam.

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Speaker 1: Great to meet you. I've been hearing about you for years.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited that you're you're able to join us

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Speaker 1: for this podcast. I'm just eager to pick your brain today. Well,

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Speaker 1: my brain is sitting here waiting to be picked. Awesome. Okay.

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Speaker 1: We don't like changing our minds, right, It's uncomfortable. It

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Speaker 1: can create a lot of cognitive dissonance. It takes a

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Speaker 1: lot of hard work, and so it's just easier to

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Speaker 1: live our lives in an unreflective mode where we persistently

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Speaker 1: believe what we believe and we double down, and we

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Speaker 1: surround ourselves with people who help us double down on

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Speaker 1: those beliefs over time. Yeah. And one of the things

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Speaker 1: that I loved about the focus of your book is

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Speaker 1: that it opens with ideas of how we can get

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Speaker 1: ourselves to have an more open mind, ourselves to rethink things.

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Speaker 1: So one reason you say that we might not be

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Speaker 1: open to rethinking is because we're overconfident, And you talk

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Speaker 1: in your book about not confusing over confidence with competence.

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Speaker 1: Do you mind saying a bit more about that? Sure?

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Speaker 1: I think when people are lacking knowledge or skill. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: they also don't know what knowledge or skill looks like

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Speaker 1: in that domain. Right, So if you know nothing, let's say,

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Speaker 1: I always think about a Super Bowl party. You gather

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Speaker 1: a bunch of football fans, and there's always one who's

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Speaker 1: screaming at the coach for calling the wrong place. That

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Speaker 1: is usually the fan who knows the least about football.

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Speaker 1: But it's a fan, it's not somebody who's, you know,

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Speaker 1: who's not at all interested in the game, because they're

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Speaker 1: not like me, who's just sitting at the food table

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Speaker 1: perfeting the entire time. Exactly. Yeah, you know that you

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Speaker 1: know nothing. I'm not weighing in. No, you and you shouldn't, right,

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Speaker 1: But if you if you watched a couple of games

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Speaker 1: and you learned a little bit about football, that's when

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Speaker 1: that tiny bit of knowledge can become a little bit dangerous,

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Speaker 1: right because it what starts to happen is as your

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Speaker 1: knowledge grows, you confuse your rate of learning for how

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Speaker 1: much you've actually learned, and your confidence rises faster than

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Speaker 1: your competence, and pretty soon you're trapped on the summit

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Speaker 1: of Mount stupid, where you know very little but you

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Speaker 1: don't know how little, you know. Yeah, you mentioned your

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Speaker 1: book that imposter syndrome gets a bad rap, but actually

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Speaker 1: there might be some silver linings to fueling imposter syndrome.

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Speaker 1: Can you say a bit more about that, Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: kind of. I was struck by this paradox that when

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Speaker 1: you look at where imposter syndrome exists, one of the

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Speaker 1: places it's most prevalent is among high achievers. And I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of people have assumed that they've succeeded

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Speaker 1: in spite of their doubts. And I started to wonder

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Speaker 1: whether their doubts are actually helping to fuel their success. Well,

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Speaker 1: maybe we don't have to turn this into a syndrome.

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Speaker 1: Right when you call it imposter syndrome, it's like you

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Speaker 1: have some kind of chronic disease, that is, it's just

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Speaker 1: abilitating and it's with you at all times. We ended

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Speaker 1: up having a doctoral student at Wark and Besimatofickho is

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Speaker 1: now an MT professor, and she studied how often people

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Speaker 1: doubt themselves. She studied investment professionals and medical professionals and

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Speaker 1: found no consistent costs of having more frequent imposter thoughts

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Speaker 1: and some surprising benefit the investment professionals when they felt

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Speaker 1: like imposters more often, they actually made better decisions. The

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Speaker 1: medical professionals who felt like imposters more often, they actually

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Speaker 1: listened to their patients. And what was happening was when

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Speaker 1: people felt those imposter thoughts, their confidence was a little

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Speaker 1: bit below their competence, and that led them to work

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Speaker 1: harder to prove themselves. It led them to work smarter

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Speaker 1: to learn new things, and it made them much more

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Speaker 1: receptive to listening to other people, which filled gaps in

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Speaker 1: their knowledge. And it almost makes me think that instead

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Speaker 1: of trying to have our confidence match our competence perfectly,

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Speaker 1: we are better off slightly underestimating ourselves. You know, there's

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Speaker 1: a tension that can emerge here, right because I'm thinking about,

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Speaker 1: for example, communities of color who fall prey to stereotype

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Speaker 1: threat and the fact that boosting confidence in those cases

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Speaker 1: is really productive because in many ways they're starting off

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Speaker 1: in an unreasonable position relative to their actual abilities, and

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Speaker 1: so well, one, I'm just wondering, in those studies were done,

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Speaker 1: what were the demographics of the group. And two, in

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Speaker 1: terms of prescriptions, where is that appropriate line between humility

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Speaker 1: and confidence, Especially because some of these psychological effects can

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Speaker 1: disproportionately hit different communities. Yeah, I think I think that's

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Speaker 1: a really important question. And I think Basima had good

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Speaker 1: data on gender less on race, but when she looked

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Speaker 1: at gender differences, the odds were greater that women were

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Speaker 1: sort of discouraged or debilitated by very frequent imposter thoughts

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Speaker 1: and men were much more likely to be motivated by them.

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Speaker 1: And I think that tracks with everything we know about

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Speaker 1: about basically the world I live in as a white man,

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Speaker 1: which is people take for granted that I'm competent, whereas

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Speaker 1: if you grow up as a woman, and I think

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Speaker 1: this is obviously the case for people of color as well.

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Speaker 1: It's you know, you have to prove your competence every day,

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Speaker 1: and those doubts because other people are doubting you are

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Speaker 1: more likely to get internalized over time. And I think

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Speaker 1: you're spot on that we need to work harder to

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Speaker 1: build confidence among people who are not white men. Does

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Speaker 1: that Does that track with your experience? Yeah? I think

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Speaker 1: it's it is I would Freeman is just really complex.

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Speaker 1: I mean, obviously there's no one size fits all approach here,

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Speaker 1: but I do think that there are profound public policy implications,

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Speaker 1: right because if we're going on the road with a

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Speaker 1: message of imposter syndromes good. We might find that that

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Speaker 1: has a disproportionately negative effect on some subsets of the population, right, women,

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Speaker 1: people of color, etc. And so we just have to

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Speaker 1: be careful about the messaging. I almost want the messaging

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Speaker 1: to be imposter syndrome is good, white men. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think a disclaimer is critical here. I would just

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Speaker 1: I would rewrite that message completely. You don't have to

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Speaker 1: take imposter syndrome as a curse. You can recognize that

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Speaker 1: it's a double edged sword, and you can try to

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Speaker 1: get some of those benefits of doubt to say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: you know what, the fact that I am questioning myself

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Speaker 1: means I'm not going to get complacent, and I've that's

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Speaker 1: that's the message that I want to get across. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that makes sense. One of my favorite parts of the

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Speaker 1: book was the fact that a smarter a person is,

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Speaker 1: the faster they recognize patterns, and so the more likely

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Speaker 1: they are to notice and reinforce stereotypes. So you also

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Speaker 1: mentioned that the smarter you are, the more likely you

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Speaker 1: are to struggle with updating your beliefs, right, to be

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Speaker 1: willing to rethink so what is the mechanism at play

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Speaker 1: in that ladder finding that would make that so well?

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Speaker 1: People generally assume that they're less biased than others, right,

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Speaker 1: This is my favorite bias. It's the I'm not biased biased, Right,

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Speaker 1: everybody else is biased. I am objective. I see things

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Speaker 1: with perfect neutrality. And I think that the higher your intelligence,

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Speaker 1: the more likely you are to fall victim to that

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Speaker 1: bias in the data. And I think there's probably the

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Speaker 1: jury is still out on what the different mechanisms might be,

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Speaker 1: but I think I think one of them is that

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Speaker 1: the smarter you are, the more feedback you've gotten throughout

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Speaker 1: your life that you're right, and that gives you an

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Speaker 1: illusion of objectivity. What you know, what you're consistent right

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Speaker 1: answers or a pluses or you know, genius level, like

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Speaker 1: you're the smartest person I've ever met. Feedback, Yeah, is

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Speaker 1: really signaling is that you're good at thinking and learning,

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Speaker 1: not that you're objective in the way that you process information.

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Speaker 1: And I think people miss that distinction. Yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: a reflection back to you. Ah. So the current mechanisms

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Speaker 1: that I use to analyze information in the world are

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Speaker 1: paying off because I keep getting the A plus. So

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Speaker 1: clearly something's going well here exactly. Yeah, you're getting positive feedback. Interesting. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it reminds me I interviewed Megan Phelps Roper, who was

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Speaker 1: part of the Westboro Baptist Church, which is a religious cult,

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Speaker 1: and she eventually ended up leaving in her mid twenties.

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Speaker 1: But I think one thing that compelled her to stay

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Speaker 1: for so long is that she grew up in a

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Speaker 1: family of lawyers. They were all very very smart, highly

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Speaker 1: educated did and their pride point was constructing these very

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Speaker 1: logical arguments, and I mean logical in the definitional sense

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Speaker 1: of the word. And as a result, I think there

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Speaker 1: was some sort of reinforcing that was happening within the

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Speaker 1: Phelps family. They're using sophisticated patterns and thinking and analysis,

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Speaker 1: but because again their axioms or batshit crazy, they're reaching

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Speaker 1: the wrong conclusions, but they are in their minds doubling

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Speaker 1: down on those conclusions. Do you have thoughts on that? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the other risks of growing up

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Speaker 1: in a family like that is you're taught from an

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Speaker 1: early age to make your own arguments, and we forget

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Speaker 1: that when you make an argument to persuade someone else.

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Speaker 1: The person you're most likely to persuade is yourself because

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Speaker 1: you trust yourself, right, you are a highly credible source

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Speaker 1: in your own eyes, and you also came up with

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Speaker 1: the reasons that you found most convincing, and as you

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Speaker 1: explain them, you start to take ownership from them, right.

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Speaker 1: Part of that is cognitive dissonance. Well, I've said this

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Speaker 1: out loud. I don't want to be a hypocrite, so

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Speaker 1: now it becomes part of my belief system. And another

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Speaker 1: reason why we do feel so much Adjita, when it

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Speaker 1: comes to admitting that we're wrong, is that we get

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Speaker 1: deeply attached to quote our past selves who held those beliefs,

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Speaker 1: and we do feel like a departure from that past

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Speaker 1: self in some way poses a full on identity threat.

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Speaker 1: So can you say more about the importance of trying

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Speaker 1: to detach yourself from your past self. Yeah, there's there's

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Speaker 1: a growing body of evidence in psychology that people who

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Speaker 1: feel quote unquote derailed that you know, I'm not I'm

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Speaker 1: not quite the same person I was two or three

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Speaker 1: years ago, they actually end up getting happier that you know.

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Speaker 1: There's a little bit of a period of feeling unsettled,

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Speaker 1: but then they realize, oh, I'm not going to let

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Speaker 1: my old ideas of who I wanted to be hold

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Speaker 1: me back. And I think one of the easiest ways

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Speaker 1: to get comfortable with with rethinking is to detach your

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Speaker 1: current self from your old self. So there are so

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Speaker 1: many times when I've looked back at my old decisions

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Speaker 1: and opinions, I'm like, Wow, I should be really embarrassed

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Speaker 1: by that. How can I possibly think that? And yet

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Speaker 1: I mostly just laugh at myself because I don't think

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Speaker 1: I'm the same person. Yes, I realize I have fundamentally

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Speaker 1: the same brain and the same body, right, and it's

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Speaker 1: still me. But I think I've grown and evolved in

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Speaker 1: a lot of ways from that version of me, and

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Speaker 1: so I don't feel like what I did, the ideas

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Speaker 1: I had about my future and the opinions I held

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Speaker 1: at twenty one are reflective of who I am now

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Speaker 1: at thirty nine, even though some of my values are

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Speaker 1: very similar. One interesting flip on this, it's reminding me

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Speaker 1: so in this interview with Megan fels Roper, who was mentioning,

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Speaker 1: I asked her, I said, when you look back on

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Speaker 1: your life, right, you have this in the Westboro Baptist

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Speaker 1: Church and then post Westboro Baptist Church like this total

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Speaker 1: life split moment. Is it jarring to remember that you

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Speaker 1: are that same Megan? And so one thing I found

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Speaker 1: fascinating about her experience is that she makes an intentional

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Speaker 1: effort not to distance herself from that Megan. And the

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Speaker 1: reason for that is she can both acknowledge that she

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Speaker 1: has different views today, but reminding herself a former Megan

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Speaker 1: helps her continue to have empathy towards people who continue

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Speaker 1: to think like old Megan. And in order for her

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Speaker 1: to do the anti extremist work she does today, she

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Speaker 1: also has to have that posture of understanding and empathy

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Speaker 1: because she needs to remember what it was like to

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Speaker 1: feel persuaded by terrible ideas. That is fascinating. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: kind of blew me away that answer. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: the idea that you could you could still accept that,

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of unacceptable version of past you and say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm not totally different from that anymore while

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Speaker 1: still changing your values in your I mean that that

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Speaker 1: is that is walking proof of what is it? The

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Speaker 1: is it? The f Scott Fitzgerald line that the sign

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Speaker 1: of intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas

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Speaker 1: in your mind at the same time and retain the

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Speaker 1: ability to function like that. That's it. She has two

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Speaker 1: opposing identities, one recently abandoned, one relatively recently adopted, that

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Speaker 1: she is keeping in some kind of dynamic tension. I

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Speaker 1: don't think. I can't imagine doing that, honestly. I think that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we all have multiple identities, right, But to

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Speaker 1: have such conflicting values and beliefs and and say yeah,

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Speaker 1: one is one is me now, one is me before,

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Speaker 1: but it's not that different from you now. The equanimity

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Speaker 1: required to do that, I think is extraordinary. Can't imagine

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Speaker 1: it exactly. Another reason that it's hard for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people to admit that they're wrong is that we

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Speaker 1: tend to strongly attach our opinions to our sense of identity.

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Speaker 1: And you challenge this in the book, right, you say

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Speaker 1: you should really be defining your identity in terms of values,

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Speaker 1: not opinions. To me, that's kind of a blurry line,

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Speaker 1: like how are you defining the difference between a value

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Speaker 1: and an opinion? And shouldn't we also be open minded

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Speaker 1: about our value systems because obviously we see huge variation

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Speaker 1: in moral values across cultures, in addition to the fact

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Speaker 1: that when we do do that thought experiment of if

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Speaker 1: I were born in a different century, or in a

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Speaker 1: different family, or you know, growing up in a different religion,

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Speaker 1: we would have wildly different values. And so I would

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Speaker 1: I guess I would want to cultivate a same openness

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Speaker 1: to changes in one's value system. You're willing to change

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Speaker 1: those fundamental beliefs. I think, I think that's a good point,

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Speaker 1: and I'm definitely open to rethinking what I wrote in

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Speaker 1: the book. It would be ironic if I weren't. It

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Speaker 1: gets very met up, very quickly. But I think I

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Speaker 1: think I agree with you. I think that I might

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Speaker 1: make one distinction before I agree, which is to say,

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Speaker 1: when I think about values, to me, the core definition

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Speaker 1: of a value is what you think is important, and

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Speaker 1: the definition of a belief or an opinion is what

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Speaker 1: you think is true. And when you do that that

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Speaker 1: counterfactual thinking exercise where you imagine, yeah, would I believe

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Speaker 1: different things if I was raised in a different family,

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Speaker 1: or in a different country, or in a different point

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Speaker 1: in history. You're not necessarily rethinking your values. You're definitely

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Speaker 1: rethinking your beliefs, right, And yeah, I think Okay, sorry,

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Speaker 1: So I think I disagree with that. I do think

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Speaker 1: that you are changing potentially what's important to you through

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Speaker 1: some of these exercises, depending on your exposure. So, for example,

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Speaker 1: I can imagine so in the United States, huge sanctity

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Speaker 1: when it comes to life, right, we care about existence,

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Speaker 1: we care about life. I talk to my Indian relatives

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Speaker 1: and they're far more concerned with quality of life and suffering, right,

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Speaker 1: So that is like what's important to them. And so

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Speaker 1: over the course of my life, I have evolved and

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Speaker 1: I have started to value like, what's important to me

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Speaker 1: now is much more about suffering than existence, and that

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Speaker 1: would inform my opinions, but it is my fundamental view

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Speaker 1: about what's important or not. Yeah, I think I think

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Speaker 1: you're right. I think I think that's less likely to

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Speaker 1: change though. I think it's slower to change, right, because

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Speaker 1: it's deeper seated, And that's where that's where I think

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Speaker 1: you're spot on that. I don't think our values should

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Speaker 1: be set in stone, right. Sometimes sometimes people end up

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Speaker 1: choosing values that are harmful to themselves and or others.

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Speaker 1: But I think we should rethink those a little bit

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Speaker 1: less frequently and maybe with stronger reasons, right. I think

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Speaker 1: that to me, opinions should just be tentative period. Right.

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Speaker 1: You should walk around with a set of things that

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Speaker 1: you think are true, and the moment you come across

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Speaker 1: better data and sharper logic, you should say, all right,

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Speaker 1: maybe I should revisit that. I don't think you should

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Speaker 1: be willing to flip flop on your values every day

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Speaker 1: or every week. Right. That feels like more of a

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Speaker 1: once a year kind of exercise to reflect on how

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Speaker 1: is what is what's important to me changing? And I

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Speaker 1: think that that kind of rethinking ought to be a

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Speaker 1: more deliberate and maybe even slower process. I agree with that.

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Speaker 1: I think the cadence along which we revisit our values

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Speaker 1: is going to be far less frequent as it should be, because,

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Speaker 1: like you said, they're more deeply entrenched in our systems.

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Speaker 1: I guess the reason I care so deeply about this

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Speaker 1: is I think that the values people hold can also

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Speaker 1: be really pernicious if they are the wrong ones, and

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Speaker 1: so compelling people to try to revisit their values on

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Speaker 1: occasion it can have transformative effects on society. I think

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Speaker 1: you're right on that too. I think I'm less optimistic

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Speaker 1: than you are about how easy it is to compel

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Speaker 1: people to change their values. Say, I didn't say I

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Speaker 1: was optimistic about it. I just care about it. Well,

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Speaker 1: I care about it too, and I just I think

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Speaker 1: it's incredibly difficult to even invite people to rethink their values. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is why I'm obsessed with the moral reframing research

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Speaker 1: that's coming out. Basically, it says, look, hold the values fixed,

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Speaker 1: assume those are constant to your earlier point, but present

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Speaker 1: them in a new way. Right. So it's like, okay,

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Speaker 1: you want folks to care about the environment. Right to liberals,

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Speaker 1: you frame it as like, okay, we can save the environment,

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Speaker 1: we will help the underprivileged among us rise up, you know,

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Speaker 1: social equality. And then with conservatives, it's patriotic to save

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Speaker 1: our planet. It can help create new jobs, to invest

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Speaker 1: in climate change, or even we need to protect the

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Speaker 1: purity of God's Earth. Right, It's such. It's a completely

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Speaker 1: different kind of argument, but it reaches the same ends. So, okay,

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Speaker 1: so we're on this opening our mind journey. Right, So

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Speaker 1: we're now at the point where we are we are

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Speaker 1: aware of the benefits of having a more open mind,

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Speaker 1: and you've given us some strategies for how to do that.

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Speaker 1: One thing that can prevent us from admitting that we're

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Speaker 1: wrong is pride. Right. We don't like admitting that we're wrong.

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Speaker 1: It's uncomfortable. We sometimes feel that we will lose credibility

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Speaker 1: with other people we express that we're wrong or express vulnerability,

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Speaker 1: and the research doesn't corroborate that. Can you say more

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Speaker 1: about it? Yeah? I mean you see this. There's a

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Speaker 1: whole literature on scientists saying, you know what, I made

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Speaker 1: a mistake in my published paper, and it turns out

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Speaker 1: that they're perceived more positively afterward. Going back half a century,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of research on the pratfall effect showing

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Speaker 1: that if a successful person fails or makes a mistake,

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Speaker 1: people actually like them more. They don't ding them for

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Speaker 1: confidence at all, and now they see them as human

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Speaker 1: and relatable and approachable instead of being untouchable. I think

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Speaker 1: one of the things I've I've realized over time is

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Speaker 1: that the faster you are to admit when you're wrong,

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Speaker 1: the faster you can move toward being right. And that's

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Speaker 1: where we all want to land right. We'd like to

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Speaker 1: be right more often, and that means you have to

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Speaker 1: be quicker to at least internally right, see those moments

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Speaker 1: when you were wrong, But then if you don't ever

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Speaker 1: admit them out loud, then you're continuing to stigmatize the behavior.

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Speaker 1: And saying I was wrong is the equivalent of admitting

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Speaker 1: to or showing weakness or signaling a lack of intelligence,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to actually signaling that you have confident humility,

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Speaker 1: which is I am secure enough in my expertise and

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Speaker 1: my strengths to be willing to be forthcoming about all

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Speaker 1: the things I got wrong and didn't know, and gosh,

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Speaker 1: I would love to live in a world where that

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Speaker 1: was the norm rather than the exception. After the break,

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Speaker 1: Adam and I discussed tactics for changing other people's minds.

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Speaker 1: So I would love to talk a little bit deeper

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Speaker 1: about how it is that we can change other people's minds.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to set the scene for you. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we are We're at the proverbial Thanksgiving dinner. Okay, I'm

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Speaker 1: dreading the dinner because the proverbial aunt uncle is at

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Speaker 1: the table, and every year I have felt enraged by

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Speaker 1: their political beliefs. This is not a hypothetical example. Is yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know I'm asking on behalf of a friend and

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Speaker 1: so so typically I eat and then I leave the

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Speaker 1: table because I just don't want to engage. But this

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Speaker 1: year I read, uh, you know, how to better rethink?

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Speaker 1: And I'm feeling really embolded. I'm feeling really motivated. So

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Speaker 1: I'm going to stick it out. I'm gonna stay at

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Speaker 1: that table. What are some of the tactics that we

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Speaker 1: can use to navigate the preceding conversation? What are you

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Speaker 1: trying to accomplish? I am trying to one stay sane

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Speaker 1: and to maybe try to make a slight dent in

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Speaker 1: their minds. Okay, and do you do you have an

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Speaker 1: agenda around what you want them to believe or do

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Speaker 1: you just want them to be a little bit more

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Speaker 1: open about what they believe? Okay, So let's say this

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Speaker 1: hypothetical person has such deeply entrenched beliefs, I want them

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Speaker 1: to even be open to the idea of rethinking. Okay,

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Speaker 1: And what's what's an issue that you want them to

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Speaker 1: be open to rethinking? Um? Oh, gosh, gosh, there's so

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Speaker 1: many today say immigration reform. Okay, I'm assuming this uncle

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Speaker 1: is anti immigration and you're mar pro yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: the I already here is that it's a little bit

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Speaker 1: of hypothetical for me given that I'm from a family

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Speaker 1: of immigrants. So yes, let's say the average uncle is

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Speaker 1: anti immigration. Okay, I think where tactically, where I would

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Speaker 1: starts with motivational interviewing principles to recognize that you can't

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Speaker 1: force your uncle to change his mind, but you could

427
00:24:34,756 --> 00:24:37,276
Speaker 1: help him find his own motivation to change his mind.

428
00:24:38,236 --> 00:24:41,076
Speaker 1: I think one of the things I've noticed consistently is

429
00:24:41,156 --> 00:24:44,476
Speaker 1: I just give a barrage of data points and facts

430
00:24:44,556 --> 00:24:48,596
Speaker 1: and reasons, and the other person either attacks, defends, or withdrawals.

431
00:24:49,276 --> 00:24:51,396
Speaker 1: And one of the things I've seen in research on

432
00:24:51,516 --> 00:24:55,036
Speaker 1: expert negotiators comparing them to average negotiators is the experts

433
00:24:55,116 --> 00:24:58,676
Speaker 1: have a higher question to statement ratio, which is also

434
00:24:58,796 --> 00:25:03,076
Speaker 1: something you see incidentally in productive charge conversations as opposed

435
00:25:03,076 --> 00:25:05,956
Speaker 1: to conversations that just go off the rails. What are

436
00:25:06,036 --> 00:25:08,956
Speaker 1: some questions that I could ask you that might lead

437
00:25:09,156 --> 00:25:11,956
Speaker 1: you to question some of your own beliefs? How did

438
00:25:11,996 --> 00:25:13,516
Speaker 1: you how did you come to that opinion? Like, tell

439
00:25:13,556 --> 00:25:16,076
Speaker 1: me more about what your sources are. I'd love to

440
00:25:16,196 --> 00:25:19,356
Speaker 1: understand them better. Yeah, so you So, it's really important

441
00:25:19,396 --> 00:25:22,836
Speaker 1: that we ask questions and not make statements. And another

442
00:25:22,956 --> 00:25:24,756
Speaker 1: one that I that I love. My husband and I

443
00:25:24,836 --> 00:25:28,876
Speaker 1: were talking about this yesterday is asking people what evidence

444
00:25:28,956 --> 00:25:31,716
Speaker 1: they would need in order to change their minds. And

445
00:25:31,796 --> 00:25:34,556
Speaker 1: the reason I ask this is that it presupposes that

446
00:25:34,676 --> 00:25:37,356
Speaker 1: the person ought to be willing to change their mind

447
00:25:37,516 --> 00:25:39,796
Speaker 1: in the face of evidence, and that's something that you know,

448
00:25:40,276 --> 00:25:43,436
Speaker 1: we we could sometimes you know, not always be even

449
00:25:43,476 --> 00:25:46,796
Speaker 1: open to in the first place. So yeah, I absolutely

450
00:25:46,876 --> 00:25:49,076
Speaker 1: love that one, and it really gets people to dig

451
00:25:49,156 --> 00:25:51,196
Speaker 1: into why it is they believe the thing in the

452
00:25:51,276 --> 00:25:54,796
Speaker 1: first place. Yeah, I've it's it's my go to question

453
00:25:55,036 --> 00:25:57,956
Speaker 1: whenever I'm in an argument and somebody is not. Usually

454
00:25:57,996 --> 00:26:00,676
Speaker 1: it's it's I've presented some data already and then the

455
00:26:00,756 --> 00:26:04,716
Speaker 1: other person rejects the data. You know, my instinct is

456
00:26:04,796 --> 00:26:07,876
Speaker 1: than to just give them more data, and instead I'm

457
00:26:07,916 --> 00:26:10,356
Speaker 1: again trying to go into scientists mode and be curious

458
00:26:10,436 --> 00:26:12,876
Speaker 1: and say, okay, well, it seems like you're not buying

459
00:26:12,916 --> 00:26:15,396
Speaker 1: the argument I made. What evidence would change your mind?

460
00:26:15,996 --> 00:26:20,396
Speaker 1: And it's very rare that anybody says nothing, and once

461
00:26:20,436 --> 00:26:22,316
Speaker 1: they start to walk through the evidence, I know what

462
00:26:22,436 --> 00:26:25,516
Speaker 1: kind of data they find convincing. We're also agreeing on

463
00:26:25,756 --> 00:26:28,236
Speaker 1: the standards of conversation, right that, Okay, we're going to

464
00:26:28,316 --> 00:26:30,996
Speaker 1: talk about what qualifies as rigorous evidence, and we can

465
00:26:31,076 --> 00:26:33,996
Speaker 1: possibly find some consensus on that, even if we disagree

466
00:26:34,036 --> 00:26:37,196
Speaker 1: about how to interpret the evidence. One thing that resonated

467
00:26:37,236 --> 00:26:40,036
Speaker 1: with me when reading the book is how is how

468
00:26:40,116 --> 00:26:43,676
Speaker 1: often people can disagree with an argument, not because they

469
00:26:43,716 --> 00:26:48,036
Speaker 1: actually disagree with it, but because they feel in some

470
00:26:48,156 --> 00:26:51,356
Speaker 1: way like they're being controlled, right, that they're being told

471
00:26:51,556 --> 00:26:56,076
Speaker 1: what to do. So how can we get around this? Well,

472
00:26:56,196 --> 00:26:58,116
Speaker 1: one of the places where I've run into this a

473
00:26:58,156 --> 00:27:01,116
Speaker 1: lot actually is in office hours with my students. I've

474
00:27:01,196 --> 00:27:04,996
Speaker 1: changed my approach dramatically. What I do now is if

475
00:27:05,036 --> 00:27:06,876
Speaker 1: you come into office hours and you say, hey, I'm

476
00:27:07,036 --> 00:27:09,436
Speaker 1: you know, I'm thinking about this banking jobst thing I

477
00:27:09,476 --> 00:27:11,436
Speaker 1: want to do is I'm going to ask you why

478
00:27:11,476 --> 00:27:14,236
Speaker 1: you're here. What's what's your goal? Do you just want

479
00:27:14,276 --> 00:27:16,756
Speaker 1: my stamp of approval on your decision because you already

480
00:27:16,796 --> 00:27:20,116
Speaker 1: have it, or maybe you're here because you want me

481
00:27:20,236 --> 00:27:22,956
Speaker 1: to point out blind spots in your thinking and you know,

482
00:27:23,036 --> 00:27:25,156
Speaker 1: invite you to do a little bit of rethinking, like

483
00:27:25,276 --> 00:27:27,916
Speaker 1: what is it? And whatever they say? Right that that

484
00:27:28,036 --> 00:27:29,756
Speaker 1: gives me a guide to figure out how I can

485
00:27:29,796 --> 00:27:31,636
Speaker 1: best help them, and at that point, they don't feel

486
00:27:31,676 --> 00:27:34,716
Speaker 1: controlled anymore, and I don't have an agenda anymore. I'm

487
00:27:34,756 --> 00:27:37,116
Speaker 1: trying to align what their goals are with the way

488
00:27:37,196 --> 00:27:39,036
Speaker 1: that I, you know, I respond to their questions and

489
00:27:39,836 --> 00:27:42,436
Speaker 1: life change, I mean honestly life changing in my office

490
00:27:42,436 --> 00:27:45,596
Speaker 1: hours conversations because I've had so many tug of war

491
00:27:45,956 --> 00:27:48,596
Speaker 1: sort of battles like no, I think you're making a

492
00:27:48,716 --> 00:27:50,396
Speaker 1: decision you're going to regret, and I want to save

493
00:27:50,476 --> 00:27:52,796
Speaker 1: you from it. And now it's like, hey, you just

494
00:27:53,116 --> 00:27:55,316
Speaker 1: you just in you just ask me to tell you

495
00:27:55,436 --> 00:27:58,596
Speaker 1: what you might be missing. And then once once I

496
00:27:58,676 --> 00:28:01,356
Speaker 1: have your permission, I'm not trying to influence you anymore.

497
00:28:01,356 --> 00:28:04,356
Speaker 1: I'm just sharing with you what I've learned. Yeah, you're

498
00:28:04,396 --> 00:28:07,116
Speaker 1: recruiting their own agency, right, and we know that that's

499
00:28:07,156 --> 00:28:09,316
Speaker 1: such a good way to describe it. Yeah, it's like

500
00:28:09,596 --> 00:28:11,876
Speaker 1: people love being in the driver's seat. Like even with

501
00:28:12,156 --> 00:28:15,276
Speaker 1: these driverless cars, even if the steering wheel doesn't work,

502
00:28:15,316 --> 00:28:17,516
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. They just want it there. They want

503
00:28:17,516 --> 00:28:20,396
Speaker 1: to feel like they're in control. Recruiting their own agency.

504
00:28:20,556 --> 00:28:23,876
Speaker 1: That is a powerful way to describe it. And you know,

505
00:28:23,956 --> 00:28:27,276
Speaker 1: I think once. Once they get to exercise it, sometimes

506
00:28:27,316 --> 00:28:29,236
Speaker 1: they become more open to the advice at the end.

507
00:28:29,796 --> 00:28:32,156
Speaker 1: So you know, they almost never used to ask me

508
00:28:33,236 --> 00:28:36,756
Speaker 1: which which job should I take? And when I start

509
00:28:36,836 --> 00:28:38,756
Speaker 1: the conversation by asking them what their goals are and

510
00:28:38,836 --> 00:28:41,156
Speaker 1: how can I best help them, they almost always at

511
00:28:41,156 --> 00:28:43,356
Speaker 1: the end of the conversation say, well, you know, it's

512
00:28:43,436 --> 00:28:45,276
Speaker 1: it's been helpful to hear some of the things that

513
00:28:45,316 --> 00:28:48,076
Speaker 1: I've overlooked, or you know, I appreciated the the insight

514
00:28:48,156 --> 00:28:49,956
Speaker 1: on the decision process. But what I really want to

515
00:28:49,996 --> 00:28:51,916
Speaker 1: know is which job do you think will make me

516
00:28:51,956 --> 00:28:53,956
Speaker 1: happier or which one will do you help? Do you

517
00:28:53,996 --> 00:28:56,836
Speaker 1: think will help me succeed? And I think my responsibility

518
00:28:56,836 --> 00:28:59,716
Speaker 1: in that moment is to say, I don't know that

519
00:28:59,916 --> 00:29:04,076
Speaker 1: is your choice, Yes, that that is great, and yeah,

520
00:29:04,116 --> 00:29:06,956
Speaker 1: like you said, leads to better outcomes in your office hours.

521
00:29:07,556 --> 00:29:10,156
Speaker 1: So I think we all feel anxious about the next

522
00:29:10,236 --> 00:29:14,516
Speaker 1: generation and how divisive things feel and how much people

523
00:29:14,556 --> 00:29:17,956
Speaker 1: do dig in their heels. One of the other ideas

524
00:29:17,996 --> 00:29:21,196
Speaker 1: that I thought was so great was to invite kids

525
00:29:21,236 --> 00:29:24,596
Speaker 1: to do multiple drafts of things right, to not strive

526
00:29:24,756 --> 00:29:28,476
Speaker 1: for that, you know, for perfection, and also to see

527
00:29:28,516 --> 00:29:31,516
Speaker 1: that there are many versions of this thing that could

528
00:29:31,516 --> 00:29:33,796
Speaker 1: exist in the world. And I was reflecting on that

529
00:29:33,916 --> 00:29:36,716
Speaker 1: last night, Like as a kid practicing the violin, there

530
00:29:36,836 --> 00:29:39,196
Speaker 1: was no such thing as a final product, And in

531
00:29:39,276 --> 00:29:41,916
Speaker 1: many ways, I think that helped me cultivate this mindset

532
00:29:42,396 --> 00:29:45,236
Speaker 1: of growth and the fact that things can always sound

533
00:29:45,556 --> 00:29:47,516
Speaker 1: different than what it sounded like in my head. And

534
00:29:47,996 --> 00:29:50,116
Speaker 1: I think that was actually very positive in terms of

535
00:29:50,156 --> 00:29:52,916
Speaker 1: the way that I looked at honing a craft in

536
00:29:53,076 --> 00:29:57,436
Speaker 1: general so interesting. Same although mine was not artistic, it

537
00:29:57,516 --> 00:30:01,156
Speaker 1: was athletic, and that's exactly what this idea of sitting

538
00:30:01,196 --> 00:30:03,396
Speaker 1: down with our kids it was. It was eye opening

539
00:30:04,156 --> 00:30:06,676
Speaker 1: instead of just praising the first drawing that they did

540
00:30:06,756 --> 00:30:10,716
Speaker 1: on a given day. I remember say to our fourth grader, hey,

541
00:30:11,036 --> 00:30:13,636
Speaker 1: that's really interesting. Have you tried a second draft? And

542
00:30:13,796 --> 00:30:15,876
Speaker 1: she got excited about all the things she can rethink.

543
00:30:16,156 --> 00:30:19,556
Speaker 1: She ended up voluntarily doing five drafts and was that

544
00:30:19,796 --> 00:30:21,596
Speaker 1: much prouder of the fifth one than she would have

545
00:30:21,636 --> 00:30:24,836
Speaker 1: been at the first. And it was a good both

546
00:30:24,996 --> 00:30:28,676
Speaker 1: lesson and probably reminder for me that kids are not

547
00:30:28,796 --> 00:30:32,476
Speaker 1: so fragile that they need to be told that everything

548
00:30:32,556 --> 00:30:35,676
Speaker 1: they do is great, and sometimes you can highlight the

549
00:30:35,716 --> 00:30:38,796
Speaker 1: potential in them, in whatever they've produced or created, and

550
00:30:38,876 --> 00:30:41,476
Speaker 1: then encouraged them to think again and reach that potential.

551
00:30:42,756 --> 00:30:44,396
Speaker 1: All right, I have one final question for you. Added,

552
00:30:45,596 --> 00:30:47,636
Speaker 1: I imagine you get lots of emails from people who've

553
00:30:47,676 --> 00:30:50,836
Speaker 1: read your books. Can you share any of the best

554
00:30:50,916 --> 00:30:56,036
Speaker 1: change stories that you might have read? Yeah? I actually

555
00:30:56,156 --> 00:31:01,156
Speaker 1: got a great email last week. Hold On, let me

556
00:31:01,236 --> 00:31:04,276
Speaker 1: pull it up because it was so powerful that I

557
00:31:04,436 --> 00:31:07,636
Speaker 1: need to read a line from it. Okay, And he said,

558
00:31:07,996 --> 00:31:09,676
Speaker 1: I'm reaching out because I wanted to tell you about

559
00:31:09,716 --> 00:31:11,276
Speaker 1: something that happened to me yesterday that I think he

560
00:31:11,356 --> 00:31:14,396
Speaker 1: might appreciate. He said. It was my first outdoor weekend

561
00:31:14,476 --> 00:31:17,116
Speaker 1: of the year. I was in a hammock finishing Think Again,

562
00:31:17,836 --> 00:31:21,116
Speaker 1: and right after I finished it, a kind of twenty

563
00:31:21,196 --> 00:31:23,556
Speaker 1: twenty one year old guy was, you know, just kind

564
00:31:23,596 --> 00:31:26,396
Speaker 1: of hanging out outdoors, and we struck up a conversation

565
00:31:27,196 --> 00:31:31,956
Speaker 1: and he was just expressing all these fears about vaccines,

566
00:31:32,956 --> 00:31:36,756
Speaker 1: he said. The young man immediately voiced his concerns about

567
00:31:36,756 --> 00:31:39,636
Speaker 1: the vaccines and how he's heard some pretty scary things

568
00:31:39,716 --> 00:31:42,036
Speaker 1: about what they can do to us. This is where

569
00:31:42,076 --> 00:31:44,916
Speaker 1: I paused. I'd literally just finished a reading think again

570
00:31:44,956 --> 00:31:47,196
Speaker 1: not an hour before, and now I have someone in

571
00:31:47,276 --> 00:31:49,476
Speaker 1: front of me who has his defenses down, who is

572
00:31:49,556 --> 00:31:52,756
Speaker 1: clearly expressing doubts about the vaccines. I decided to put

573
00:31:52,796 --> 00:31:54,756
Speaker 1: your book to the test. I told the young man

574
00:31:54,836 --> 00:31:57,596
Speaker 1: that I agreed it's very confusing knowing which information on

575
00:31:57,756 --> 00:32:00,636
Speaker 1: vaccines to trust while also trying to stay safe and

576
00:32:00,796 --> 00:32:03,356
Speaker 1: not get our loved one sick. And I asked him

577
00:32:03,396 --> 00:32:06,756
Speaker 1: how he plans to make an informed decision. He paused,

578
00:32:06,876 --> 00:32:10,036
Speaker 1: clearly not being used to that question, and said he'd

579
00:32:10,116 --> 00:32:12,756
Speaker 1: use sources he trusts I asked him how he knows

580
00:32:12,836 --> 00:32:15,876
Speaker 1: which sources to trust, which is harder and harder in

581
00:32:15,996 --> 00:32:19,556
Speaker 1: this day and age, and he paused again and said, yeah,

582
00:32:19,596 --> 00:32:22,196
Speaker 1: it is hard, and then said he might call his

583
00:32:22,316 --> 00:32:25,996
Speaker 1: primary care physician and ask for medical advice, and I

584
00:32:26,116 --> 00:32:29,876
Speaker 1: said I would do the same. He said, The story

585
00:32:29,956 --> 00:32:32,876
Speaker 1: doesn't end there. We struck up a conversation, we became friends,

586
00:32:33,516 --> 00:32:37,156
Speaker 1: and I'm grateful that I responded to do his stance

587
00:32:37,196 --> 00:32:39,516
Speaker 1: on vaccines in a way that not only possibly opened

588
00:32:39,556 --> 00:32:42,516
Speaker 1: his mind, but more importantly made him feel seen and heard.

589
00:32:42,996 --> 00:32:45,876
Speaker 1: And this safety allowed him to open up. And I

590
00:32:45,956 --> 00:32:48,036
Speaker 1: thought that was so cool to see that in that

591
00:32:48,076 --> 00:32:51,356
Speaker 1: beautiful Yeah, what an impact. I love that so much.

592
00:32:51,916 --> 00:32:53,716
Speaker 1: All right, thank you so much, Adam. I'm so glad

593
00:32:53,716 --> 00:32:56,396
Speaker 1: we got a chance to discuss. Oh. I feel like

594
00:32:56,476 --> 00:32:59,236
Speaker 1: we barely scratched the surface. You are so smart and

595
00:32:59,956 --> 00:33:03,556
Speaker 1: such a clear thinker and communicator and ask him almost

596
00:33:03,596 --> 00:33:06,276
Speaker 1: impossibly difficult questions that I'm going to be thinking about

597
00:33:06,276 --> 00:33:27,236
Speaker 1: for the next few weeks. A Slight Change of Plans

598
00:33:27,396 --> 00:33:31,076
Speaker 1: is created an executive produce by me Maya Shunker. Big

599
00:33:31,196 --> 00:33:35,476
Speaker 1: thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries, including our producer Mola Board,

600
00:33:35,796 --> 00:33:40,436
Speaker 1: associate producers David ja and Julia Goodman, executive producers Mia

601
00:33:40,516 --> 00:33:44,756
Speaker 1: Lavelle and Justine Lange, senior editor Jen Guera, and sound

602
00:33:44,796 --> 00:33:49,396
Speaker 1: design and mixed engineers Ben Taliday and Jason Gambrel. Thanks

603
00:33:49,436 --> 00:33:52,036
Speaker 1: also to Louis Gara who wrote our theme song, and

604
00:33:52,156 --> 00:33:55,876
Speaker 1: Ginger Smith who helped arrange the vocals, incidental music from

605
00:33:55,916 --> 00:33:59,716
Speaker 1: Epidemic Sound, and of course a very special thanks to

606
00:33:59,876 --> 00:34:02,836
Speaker 1: Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change of Plans

607
00:34:02,876 --> 00:34:15,036
Speaker 1: on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. It was fun to

608
00:34:15,076 --> 00:34:16,796
Speaker 1: think out loud, but also I'm like, oh, this is

609
00:34:16,876 --> 00:34:18,676
Speaker 1: why I always like to be the interviewer because I

610
00:34:18,756 --> 00:34:22,596
Speaker 1: have questions I'm going to ask back to you next time.

611
00:34:22,636 --> 00:34:24,476
Speaker 1: We'll trade spots. How about that to be continu