Speaker 1: I miss the green, for example, I'm already upset. When
Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 1: And when I find my.
Speaker 2: Ball in a brid Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Friday Egg,
Speaker 2: Friday Frida Egg Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to
Speaker 2: run off of the course.
Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome back to another edition of the
Speaker 1: Frida Egg Podcast. I'm your host, Andy Johnson, and today
Speaker 1: I'm joined by the illustrious golf writer, part time golf
Speaker 1: course architect Jeff Shackleford. Jeff, thanks for coming.
Speaker 2: On, Thanks for having me, and it good to be here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, how are you recovering from such
Speaker 1: an entertaining packed weekend of golf. You know, all these
Speaker 1: events played at the same time on different networks.
Speaker 2: What were you watching?
Speaker 3: I was going back and forth and uh and and
Speaker 3: bemoaning the fact that they were all ending at the
Speaker 3: same time and muttering things about how we need more
Speaker 3: West Coast venues and tournament golf because I do that
Speaker 3: in general, but also because it helps spread out finishes.
Speaker 3: So I you know, they weren't the greatest golf tournaments
Speaker 3: in the history of the world, but I when you
Speaker 3: see a Danielle King and that kind of a great
Speaker 3: story and emotional story. You kind of would like to
Speaker 3: be sitting there just shavoring that one and and and
Speaker 3: enjoying it. And then uh, you know the Senior Open.
Speaker 3: It's it's a you never know what's going to happen
Speaker 3: in a USGA event like that. I'd kind of like
Speaker 3: to savor the finish that there. And then you know,
Speaker 3: anything at TPC uh whatever, it's called Avenel Potomac something
Speaker 3: or other. They've changed it there is it is it
Speaker 3: Potomac Potomac at Avonel Farms I think is the full name.
Speaker 3: But anyway, it's weird things happened there, and it was
Speaker 3: kind of a wacky, wacky uh finish down the stretch
Speaker 3: with some some oddball characters which I like. And so yeah,
Speaker 3: one of them should have been finished today. And this
Speaker 3: is just a problem golf has with uh, with scheduling.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of stuff out there and and the
Speaker 3: the groups don't always see eyed I on on when
Speaker 3: to finish these things, and then we end up with
Speaker 3: something like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it would have been nice if they
Speaker 1: had had term in action over Saturday Sunday Monday Tuesday
Speaker 1: essentially gotten four days of weekend action. But you know,
Speaker 1: it is what it is. So you know, a question
Speaker 1: I've always wondered, UH, is how did you kind of
Speaker 1: get into golf course architecture? Obviously, you know it's something
Speaker 1: you wrote a ton about early in your career and
Speaker 1: just was curious about that.
Speaker 2: Well, from a pretty young age, I was interested in
Speaker 2: drawing golf holes for some unknown reason, like a lot
Speaker 2: of people. And then I was very lucky in that
Speaker 2: my dad was a took me on a lot of
Speaker 2: trips when he was announcing college basketball, and even back
Speaker 2: when he was with the Lakers. I even went on
Speaker 2: a couple of trips then. But when he went to
Speaker 2: work for American Golf Corporation and Acquisitions, we traveled to
Speaker 2: a lot of places and saw a lot of rundown
Speaker 2: munis that they were looking to try and acquire. And
Speaker 2: then we also played some good golf courses in those areas,
Speaker 2: so that got my interest going. And then obviously he
Speaker 2: joined Rivier when I was sixteen, and and then had
Speaker 2: George Thomas's book, So that combination of getting to see
Speaker 2: that and study George Thomas's right, it was really important
Speaker 2: as well. And then and then things kind of went
Speaker 2: to another level when they did the restoration project. And
Speaker 2: I was kind of near the end of my time
Speaker 2: in college and losing interest in playing and fascinated by
Speaker 2: what that course had been, and I started kind of
Speaker 2: doing research on my own, and I started showing some
Speaker 2: of that to Ben and Bill and did Jim mcfillamy,
Speaker 2: the superintendent at the time there, who was running the job.
Speaker 2: And unfortunately I was finding things that they didn't know about,
Speaker 2: or they had suspected existed but had no documentation of.
Speaker 2: And so their project in nineteen ninety three was more
Speaker 2: of a it was a restoration of the evolved course,
Speaker 2: if that makes sense, And so that was kind of
Speaker 2: that was fun. And then I got to know them
Speaker 2: and learn from them, and Dave Exellent and Dan Procter
Speaker 2: of the Shapers, and so it was just a common
Speaker 2: of things that happened. And but it's always been something
Speaker 2: I've been just just naturally drawn to.
Speaker 1: It's interesting. I wanted to talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: Riviera later, you know, curious since you've done a lot
Speaker 1: of research on it, and I know, you know, everybody
Speaker 1: that watches Golf Channel knows you love the way the
Speaker 1: water moves off the golf course. But if you were
Speaker 1: going to do one kind of thing, like if they
Speaker 1: they hired you to do a restoration tomorrow and a
Speaker 1: kind of long range plan, what would be the first
Speaker 1: thing that you do to that golf course?
Speaker 2: Probably reclaim the look of the Baranka and try and
Speaker 2: get that what you see in the old photos of
Speaker 2: a sandy sandy wash through the course and then up
Speaker 2: up the thirteenth pole on the left side, and down
Speaker 2: the middle of the eighth and down the right of
Speaker 2: the seventh. I mean, that was the thing at La
Speaker 2: Country Club. That that that I bent Gilsier about and
Speaker 2: over again, and he was, of course, he was in agreement,
Speaker 2: and we had to get the Baranka back because there's
Speaker 2: just nothing like that that element of a golf course.
Speaker 2: You can do great bunkers, you can have great strategy
Speaker 2: and beautiful green complexes and this and that and restore
Speaker 2: whole locations, but if you don't have that kind of
Speaker 2: the color, the texture, the all the elements the coolness
Speaker 2: that sandy Baranka brinks because there's really nothing quite like
Speaker 2: them in the terms of hazards and in golf, and
Speaker 2: it's kind of a something that's unique to southern California
Speaker 2: to have these sandy washes that you can go and
Speaker 2: hit a recovery shot from and they function, they're part
Speaker 2: of the way the golf course plays in the winter time,
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. And mostly just the look. And
Speaker 2: so that's where Riviera's has become kind of a it's
Speaker 2: a two color golf course. It's green, and it's got
Speaker 2: white bunker sand and trees, and it's it's it's lost
Speaker 2: a certain visual.
Speaker 1: Identity.
Speaker 2: Intrigued.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's it's interesting. I I you know, you
Speaker 1: think about Riviera and it you know, being there, you know,
Speaker 1: it's definitely a site that wasn't blessed with a lot
Speaker 1: I mean, as a canyon as small. Yeah, Like you know,
Speaker 1: when you talk about the great golf courses in the world,
Speaker 1: it's got to be one of the best with one
Speaker 1: of the worst sites. You know, and in your opinion,
Speaker 1: you know, is it, you know, one of the three
Speaker 1: or four most architecturally sound golf courses.
Speaker 2: Not as much now it still is, but they've they've
Speaker 2: just taken so many, so many great subtleties and and
Speaker 2: cool elements of it. Out either either just through ignorance
Speaker 2: or just not really understanding it. And so I just
Speaker 2: feel like when you see where so many other golf
Speaker 2: courses have gone in the restoration movement we've seen and
Speaker 2: Riviera's gone backwards, that it's it's really fallen far behind.
Speaker 2: And I never would have said that, I mean, growing
Speaker 2: up there. If I match played it, I think you
Speaker 2: and I may have discussed this, But if I match
Speaker 2: played it against La North, it always won two and one,
Speaker 2: three and two handily. And that was me being charitable,
Speaker 2: thinking I had a home course homeri Ism thing going.
Speaker 2: And now it's the other way around. La La breathes
Speaker 2: to an easy two and one, three and two victory
Speaker 2: depending on my mood, and it's just there's just too
Speaker 2: many weak elements. I think the thing that stands out
Speaker 2: for me there is when the University of Texas guys
Speaker 2: were going there for the NCAA's, their coaches asked my
Speaker 2: dad and I about local knowledge and things they should
Speaker 2: be on the lookout for, and it was sad. I
Speaker 2: went through it and there was really only one great
Speaker 2: sucker pin left. They had kind of taken some of
Speaker 2: the angles out with the green enlargements where of course
Speaker 2: used to have several great whole locations that you would
Speaker 2: just think, oh, I can go with that. And the
Speaker 2: way the bunkers were angled it was idiotic. And they
Speaker 2: they they've they've eliminated those and it's it's a little
Speaker 2: it's a little stuff like that when you take that
Speaker 2: out of a strategic course, and of course that had
Speaker 2: evolved in a certain way that I think is uh
Speaker 2: is unfortunate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's it is interesting how you know
Speaker 1: they you know, everybody's doing this restoration thing and you
Speaker 1: know it seeming seemingly everybody's coming out winners from it.
Speaker 1: But you know, they have you know, more money and
Speaker 1: you know, ability to do you know, a restoration, more
Speaker 1: so than almost any club in the in the country.
Speaker 1: And they yet they they haven't really done a true restoration.
Speaker 2: No, No, it's unfortunate. And they they had every opportunity
Speaker 2: to and many people trying to guide them there, but
Speaker 2: they they don't want to do that. And I've heard
Speaker 2: there now now again looking at trying to put water
Speaker 2: in the branca again, so be kind of the polar
Speaker 2: opposite of what I would I would do there. So
Speaker 2: it's it's a it's a helpless Uh, it's a helpless
Speaker 2: cause sadly, So you know.
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll go to a little bit uh, you know,
Speaker 1: brighter subject will stay in the LA area. And I
Speaker 1: you know, you and Gil completed your work at LACC
Speaker 1: South Course earlier this this year, and you know, I'm
Speaker 1: just kind of curious about, you know, the project, you
Speaker 1: know what the goal was, and you know, now that
Speaker 1: you've had a few months, how how the how's the
Speaker 1: member feedback? Then?
Speaker 2: Well, it was the second course there in architecturally as
Speaker 2: long as I've been alive and for a long long time,
Speaker 2: and it was it was but the course that got
Speaker 2: more play, and it was probably sixty percent there and
Speaker 2: forty percent of the North. Well, after the North was redone,
Speaker 2: the combination of the better grass and conditioning for most
Speaker 2: people and then obviously the better architecture for certain players
Speaker 2: there made the North just much more popular, and it
Speaker 2: shifted the other way to sixty of the play there
Speaker 2: and maybe even seventy percent. And so the goal was
Speaker 2: to get the South back to where people wanted to
Speaker 2: play it. And then there were some issues with a
Speaker 2: neighboring building that has yet to be built but will
Speaker 2: be built eventually between the Beverly Hilton and the South
Speaker 2: Course that was going to, in our insane world, put
Speaker 2: the club in a bad spot where where even though
Speaker 2: it's been there one hundred and twenty years, that t
Speaker 2: shots that would would go into that new building would
Speaker 2: would be would be the problem of the club. So
Speaker 2: they needed us to re route some holes on that
Speaker 2: end of the course, and it turned into an open
Speaker 2: canvas really once we showed them that rerouting, and the
Speaker 2: decision was made, well, if we're going to do this,
Speaker 2: let's do it right. That's kind of how they are
Speaker 2: there and it's just a great club that way. And
Speaker 2: so we, uh, you know, I got to spend a
Speaker 2: lot of time trying to come up with different routing scenarios,
Speaker 2: and Gilt would would chime in, and we we and
Speaker 2: Russ Meyers, the superintendent would And it was the most
Speaker 2: difficult thing I've ever worked on because we had to
Speaker 2: keep the holes basically on the perimeter playing the same
Speaker 2: way in terms of tea shots, so that if we
Speaker 2: started sending balls onto streets or into houses that that
Speaker 2: had not gotten those before, we would have been in trouble.
Speaker 2: And and nobody wanted that, so it was great fun.
Speaker 2: But it was I mean, it was incredible how many
Speaker 2: phone calls there'd be. Either Gil would would have an
Speaker 2: idea or and I'd have to go check it out,
Speaker 2: or Russ would have an idea and we'd start talking
Speaker 2: them through, and then we really lives. We had back
Speaker 2: to back par threes, or we had part sixty nine,
Speaker 2: or we had nineteen holes or we had seventeen holes.
Speaker 2: It was insane. It was. It was fun. And then
Speaker 2: one day it finally kind of clicked in one respect,
Speaker 2: I found a hole that I was excited about. And
Speaker 2: then but we still had one little problem. And I
Speaker 2: remember the day very vividly, and Gil, Gil, I think,
Speaker 2: on a Friday night, was looking at something and figured
Speaker 2: something out, said would you go check this out? And
Speaker 2: so I went out and on a Saturday, and it
Speaker 2: was it was kind of fun. I had just well,
Speaker 2: it was weird. I did the morning drive that morning
Speaker 2: and was defending Ted Bishop who had been in a
Speaker 2: little scandal. And I went over there and I took
Speaker 2: pictures of where and called Gil and said, I think
Speaker 2: it works. It's a little uphill par three and and
Speaker 2: we finally had our eighteen holes kind of pieced together,
Speaker 2: and so that whole I am very I really like
Speaker 2: that's the one hole that in the member feedback is
Speaker 2: still there's still on the fence about it's a little
Speaker 2: short uphill Part three with a pretty severe green. But
Speaker 2: the feedback's been very positive. A couple of part threes
Speaker 2: are are are tough for them because the greens are
Speaker 2: new and firm, and but other than that, the feedbacksmen sensational.
Speaker 2: It's done what we'd hoped. It's gotten the playback over
Speaker 2: there and good players love it. And uh, it's really
Speaker 2: a beautiful property. And it's a very different property than
Speaker 2: the North You're you're right, it's like golf in Central Park,
Speaker 2: and so the contrast between the two is just incredible.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I always like when clubs, you know, like as
Speaker 1: opposed to like Baltis Ral where you have like just
Speaker 1: two you know, courses that are going to beat you
Speaker 1: up day and day out, where you have a little
Speaker 1: bit of a contrast where you have you know, your
Speaker 1: US Open Walker Cup course on the North course, and
Speaker 1: then you've got something that's a little bit you know,
Speaker 1: more playable and and you know, member friendly on the
Speaker 1: South course. So you know, you you see, you know,
Speaker 1: the ability to you know, really have two different golfing
Speaker 1: experiences in.
Speaker 2: One Yeah, and that was something that you know, so
Speaker 2: when I hear some of the feedback that this hole
Speaker 2: is too hard and that's too hard, you know that
Speaker 2: that we cringe at because we did want this to
Speaker 2: remain fun and a totally different vibe that that a
Speaker 2: good player could could go out with with with not
Speaker 2: as good players and they could still have a fun game.
Speaker 2: And for the most part, I think that's been the case.
Speaker 2: And when you have a new course in New Greens
Speaker 2: that's just one of the things that that you have
Speaker 2: to ask for patients on. But it was really really
Speaker 2: a fun project to be a part of and to
Speaker 2: to to to work in the middle of the city
Speaker 2: like that and to to try to do something that
Speaker 2: was different than the North, but also didn't you know
Speaker 2: that was the other thing we had to deal with
Speaker 2: was do we want do we want to just create
Speaker 2: a because a smaller version of the North, because you know,
Speaker 2: Captain Thomas had started developing plans for the South and
Speaker 2: redid the first green and it was a pretty zany
Speaker 2: green with a bunker cut into it, and you're thinking
Speaker 2: well he was gonna go pretty nuts with this golf
Speaker 2: course with short holes, and and then he he passed away.
Speaker 2: So we we tried to do some things on the
Speaker 2: course that were in the vein of what would George
Speaker 2: Thomas do on a shorter version of a course like this?
Speaker 2: And what would Billy Bell how would he construct it?
Speaker 2: But we also did some things that were that went
Speaker 2: against that, and we we've toned down the bunkers a
Speaker 2: little bit and things like that to make it make
Speaker 2: it different, but not make it. I mean we even
Speaker 2: toyed with like it do we do a Rainer style look,
Speaker 2: and so they're totally different looking, and we just felt
Speaker 2: like that was never gonna never gonna look quite right.
Speaker 2: So I feel like we found the right the right blend.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So something I think is interesting about kind of
Speaker 1: your career. So you start, you know, you're you're a
Speaker 1: golf writer, and you know, you write a lot about architecture,
Speaker 1: and now you've you know, kind of you know, morphed
Speaker 1: into a architect you know yourself, you know, And I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people that are into architecture always think, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, it would be so cool to get to
Speaker 1: design your own own course. What have you seen that
Speaker 1: is the toughest aspect of architecture that you didn't expect
Speaker 1: it now that you've been out in the field, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, building golf courses.
Speaker 2: Probably the politics of it, the convincing whoever is in
Speaker 2: charge of the money and of what you want to
Speaker 2: do and what they need to have done and what
Speaker 2: they have is in terms of a site or or
Speaker 2: an existing course. It's it's it's fairly relentless, and it's
Speaker 2: it's uh in terms of the campaigning and the effort
Speaker 2: you have to make to convince people that something would
Speaker 2: be good. And I mean that was the fun part
Speaker 2: at l A. It was not. Initially it was a
Speaker 2: tough set well and uh, you know, a lot of opposition,
Speaker 2: and then it was the opposite on the on the
Speaker 2: south we we had very little opposition and it was
Speaker 2: almost it was almost uh, you know, Gil and I
Speaker 2: would look at Uh, I guess nobody, nobody really is
Speaker 2: too worried about what we're going to do, so let's
Speaker 2: do it. And that was fun as well. But it's uh,
Speaker 2: that's a tough part of the job. I think that
Speaker 2: part of the job's gotten slightly easier with the change
Speaker 2: in the last probably five to seven years of people
Speaker 2: going into projects just being more aware of what what's
Speaker 2: good good design and what sensible design, what's sustainable? Uh
Speaker 2: uh And and I think the biggest shift is the
Speaker 2: the finally we've seem to be over for the most part,
Speaker 2: not always, but for the most part, the obsession with difficulty,
Speaker 2: and people are asking architects more and more they want
Speaker 2: they want fun and and and uh that's to me
Speaker 2: really really encouraging for the game. And maybe too late,
Speaker 2: but you never know, but I think it's I think
Speaker 2: it's been a great shift that you see that now
Speaker 2: with you hear that with so many projects.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know curious. You know, when you got your
Speaker 1: start and started writing, and you know you're kind of
Speaker 1: in the dark ages of architecture, you know, did you
Speaker 1: did you just feel like a black sheep at all times?
Speaker 2: No? No, no, because there were other people with the
Speaker 2: same mindset. Yeah, I mean I got the black sheep
Speaker 2: treatment when I started venturing into writing about distance and uh,
Speaker 2: I mean literally to the point where there were there
Speaker 2: were certain companies that were encouraging people not to use
Speaker 2: me for writing work, and and there were uh, you
Speaker 2: know essentially they were they were threatened by that discussion,
Speaker 2: and and I understood that that's that's uh, it's a
Speaker 2: it's a sensitive subject. But even that subject starting to
Speaker 2: change now. Uh finally it took a while, but uh,
Speaker 2: but in terms of architecture, no, I think it was
Speaker 2: there were enough quality people who were like minded that
Speaker 2: that made me think, Okay, yeah, this is worth looking
Speaker 2: into and pursuing. And and the people that I I
Speaker 2: uh I think are smart and uh I really like
Speaker 2: and who love the game are into this too, And
Speaker 2: so that that never that part of it never felt
Speaker 2: that that that odd. It was more of trying to
Speaker 2: convince people, Okay, look at these photos we found, wouldn't
Speaker 2: this be better? And I think that that was the
Speaker 2: hard part. And I think the part that's changed now
Speaker 2: with Photoshop, with Google Earth and all these different visual tricks,
Speaker 2: it is a lot easier to convince people of what
Speaker 2: some used to look like and how it would look,
Speaker 2: how that would be the better look now for a course, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that's I mean, the biggest thing I see,
Speaker 1: you know, the place I play golf here in Chicago
Speaker 1: is just like draft is so overgrown and then you
Speaker 1: look at the old photos and there's no trees anywhere,
Speaker 1: you know, and they you know, they've planted thousands of trees,
Speaker 1: and you know, I talk to members and and they're like,
Speaker 1: you know, hey, those trees have been here forever. I
Speaker 1: point to a picture in the clubhouse. Yeah, there's not there,
Speaker 1: And you know, it just it limits the amount of
Speaker 1: strategy when you don't have any with obviously, you know,
Speaker 1: you see it even on tour. You know, I'd be
Speaker 1: interested to hear what your thoughts were on Aaron Hills
Speaker 1: and you know, kind of the course and you know
Speaker 1: how it played out. You know, I think it's a
Speaker 1: very polarizing topic in.
Speaker 2: Golf, polarizing in this you mean the post Aaron Hills
Speaker 2: reaction is polarizing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think. You know, obviously people just get I
Speaker 1: think people just get so hung up on par But
Speaker 1: you know, in my eyes, I looked at at that
Speaker 1: course and I thought it delivered a really good championship
Speaker 1: and we saw a variety that on the leaderboard that
Speaker 1: we'd never seen before with with different styles of play
Speaker 1: in the US Open, and I you know, I look
Speaker 1: at it and I attributed it to the with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm with you. On that. You know, I didn't
Speaker 2: have I wouldn't say high hopes for that one for
Speaker 2: Aaron Hills, and and and in part you know, I
Speaker 2: look at not just the design but also just the
Speaker 2: how is it going to function as a venue, Is
Speaker 2: it going to have energy? And h is it gonna
Speaker 2: be somewhat reasonable to get to? And so getting there
Speaker 2: actually worked really well. The energy on site was great
Speaker 2: because the fans there were so passionate and and it
Speaker 2: was a beautiful It was very much like an Open Championship,
Speaker 2: especially Sunday when it cooled off a little and the
Speaker 2: wind was blowing. It was eerie how much it felt
Speaker 2: like an Open in the UK, but on television it was.
Speaker 2: It was interesting that the reaction was, well, where were
Speaker 2: the people, where was the energy? And it really, I
Speaker 2: think was a learning experience for a lot of people
Speaker 2: to then go to Connecticut the next week where you
Speaker 2: had people right on top of the action, and how
Speaker 2: that totally change the energy for the person launching at home.
Speaker 2: But then, of course, as you know, so many people
Speaker 2: seized on that winning score and it was part seventy two.
Speaker 2: The greens were absolutely immaculate. The width was sensational and
Speaker 2: I think necessary based on what everybody tells me there
Speaker 2: on what happened on Saturday before the Open, with the
Speaker 2: wind that they have days there where if you don't
Speaker 2: have that width there, they're just going to have a
Speaker 2: freak show out there. So it was unfortunate arranged and
Speaker 2: that made the width play even more substantial than some
Speaker 2: people would like. But you know, other than them not
Speaker 2: spotting the overspray and the high rough right off the
Speaker 2: edges and dealing with that sooner, uh the place was
Speaker 2: immaculately presented. The architecture was way better than when I
Speaker 2: first went there, and way more interesting and and uh
Speaker 2: so I view it as a positive open and and
Speaker 2: and then we'll remember it as one and and I
Speaker 2: think I think history will be kind to it as well.
Speaker 2: And I don't think anybody's gonna sit there and go, well,
Speaker 2: that was a that was a disaster. And and you
Speaker 2: know the other thing and is, you know, from a plane,
Speaker 2: people just forget how awful the feeling is when an open,
Speaker 2: is a US Open, or any major or any golf
Speaker 2: tournaments tainted by course set up where you feel like
Speaker 2: it went too far and it costs somebody the championship
Speaker 2: for for reasons that can't really be explained other than
Speaker 2: it went too far. So if you air a little
Speaker 2: bit on the other side, I'm sorry, but that's just
Speaker 2: infinitely better.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I I completely agree. I think it allowed
Speaker 1: everybody to play their style game. I mean, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think, you know, like the short grass around the
Speaker 1: greens even to extent, allowed people that were great are
Speaker 1: great at short you know, at chipping and pitching the ball,
Speaker 1: you know, a place to showcase their skills because you know,
Speaker 1: in a traditional US Open, you know, you get in
Speaker 1: seven inch rough around the greens and no matter how
Speaker 1: great you are, you're probably not going to get up
Speaker 1: and down. But you saw Patrick Reid on on Saturday
Speaker 1: put on a clinic and the whole day he was
Speaker 1: short sighted.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And they manage those areas very carefully.
Speaker 2: And I don't know how much that came through two
Speaker 2: people watching from Afar, but they had different mowing heights.
Speaker 2: For some they were nervous. They were nervous about a
Speaker 2: lot of things going into this Open, and rightfully so,
Speaker 2: they did not want to have a bad week. They
Speaker 2: didn't want to have a week with balls rolling up
Speaker 2: and down greens and so I think they did the
Speaker 2: right thing airing the way they did and got a
Speaker 2: very very deserving champion.
Speaker 1: So do you think Aaron Hills you voting yes for
Speaker 1: another open?
Speaker 2: I think it would. I think it will probably get one,
Speaker 2: but I think it'll be a long time, partially because
Speaker 2: they're so already locked in to so many venues. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I think it will get another one. I don't know
Speaker 2: if it would be my top choice, to be honest,
Speaker 2: there's just so many places that I mean when I
Speaker 2: look when you look at where they're going the next
Speaker 2: eight venues and likely actually the next ten if they
Speaker 2: go to some of the places we suspect, And there's
Speaker 2: just something about the places with history and architecture and
Speaker 2: stories that you you kind of love to hear and
Speaker 2: and great ways to remind people of the past and
Speaker 2: other tournaments that's just different than going to the new venues.
Speaker 2: And I think that's my only issue going to Chambers
Speaker 2: and Aaron Hills the way they did that, they only
Speaker 2: had one amateur and in Aaron Hills case of public
Speaker 2: links and amateur public links, and I think you just
Speaker 2: have to go places where you have to have more
Speaker 2: events on them before you go there. In fact, I
Speaker 2: you know LA Country Club, Well, somebody will say, well,
Speaker 2: wait a second, they're going to get US Open and
Speaker 2: all they're going to have is a locker cup. And
Speaker 2: I think it's after seeing what I saw at Aaron Hills,
Speaker 2: I would like to see LA Country Club host a
Speaker 2: couple of one or two things like a US Open
Speaker 2: sectional qualifying, just get a few more things in there
Speaker 2: to just see how good players play on a course,
Speaker 2: because there's just it's very difficult, as you know, to
Speaker 2: envision what a course is going to play like with
Speaker 2: really good players on it until you get it kind
Speaker 2: of ramped up and an in tournament condition and get
Speaker 2: those players out there. And I think that that was
Speaker 2: something that hurt both Chambers and and Aaron Hills, especially
Speaker 2: because they're they're they're more complicated golf courses and scale
Speaker 2: and turf and location and all that then and people
Speaker 2: of course, like like La and people, you.
Speaker 1: Know, like getting people around the course. You know, the
Speaker 1: LCC had packed twelves a couple of years ago, right,
Speaker 1: and I did, as I remember. The feedback was really
Speaker 1: positive for that also.
Speaker 2: Oh it was amazing. It was so fun, you know,
Speaker 2: the first day, uh, scoring was incredible, and because they
Speaker 2: had it set up a little easier and then it
Speaker 2: just got tougher and tougher in a good way. And
Speaker 2: it was it was so much fun to watch and
Speaker 2: it was so fascinating me. My favorite memory of that
Speaker 2: was on the in the final round, Casey Martin was
Speaker 2: was going out on the fifteenth green when his player
Speaker 2: would get up on the tee and directing them where
Speaker 2: to hit their shot the landed so that it would
Speaker 2: then spin down properly to the whole because the hole
Speaker 2: was playing ninety five yards the short part three the
Speaker 2: pin was up. They were playing the basically the red
Speaker 2: tea box and although the reds are now gone, but
Speaker 2: it's another color now. I think it's green. But then
Speaker 2: it was just fun to watch that the golf course
Speaker 2: get firm to the point where where a coach was
Speaker 2: was watching what other guys were doing, was able to
Speaker 2: tell the players that. And it was intense, I mean
Speaker 2: it was really by the last the last round, it
Speaker 2: was an intense test of golf and and and just
Speaker 2: great fun to watch.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's interesting with college golf, how how involved
Speaker 1: the coaches are with like you know, like that I
Speaker 1: went to the NTAs this year and and you know,
Speaker 1: for the it was kind of my first in person exposure.
Speaker 1: But I mean, like they are like almost more involved
Speaker 1: than a caddy would be, and and you know, instructing
Speaker 1: these kids where to hit their shots, reading putts. I
Speaker 1: mean it, it's interesting how like they're able to you
Speaker 1: know it, they're almost better than at caddy because they
Speaker 1: could go watch you know, another team play a hole
Speaker 1: five holes before you get there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that was that was the interesting thing for
Speaker 2: me at the PAC twelve because there are coaches who
Speaker 2: don't do that. They have a very simple style and
Speaker 2: they they sit back. And then I noticed it though
Speaker 2: in the NCAA's I'm a telecast more than ever, how
Speaker 2: many more coaches are getting out there and and essentially caddying.
Speaker 2: And I think for the most part, that's a good
Speaker 2: thing for a player, but I there were a few
Speaker 2: times where you were like, coach, get off the green, Okay,
Speaker 2: you don't need to tend the flag, and you don't
Speaker 2: need to shake your guy's hand before he shakes his
Speaker 2: opponent's hand at the end of the match. That kind
Speaker 2: of thing that was that was bothersome to me. So
Speaker 2: and I noticed that it was interesting. Some some people
Speaker 2: at the Golf Channel also noticed it, and I think
Speaker 2: they must have gotten some feedback on it because there
Speaker 2: is a there is a fine line there but between
Speaker 2: being a coach and being upfront and also just letting
Speaker 2: your players play and play their match.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's interesting. It's uh, you know, eventually, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I the way I play a game. I
Speaker 1: think I just I just have to go be myself,
Speaker 1: you know, like if I have somebody telling me exactly
Speaker 1: what to do, I'll probably just screw up.
Speaker 2: But no, there are a lot of people like that.
Speaker 2: That's that's why they're drawn to golf.
Speaker 1: So what what course would you like to see host
Speaker 1: major championships, whether it's the PGA or the the US
Speaker 1: Open that you don't that currently isn't hosting major championship golf?
Speaker 2: Hmm, oh boy, that's uh, that's an interesting one. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's tough to say because of the way the ball goes.
Speaker 2: There's there are a lot of places that would be
Speaker 2: great fun to see these guys play, but they just can't.
Speaker 2: It's just it would just be dumb to watch them
Speaker 2: try and play it and and and be tested in
Speaker 2: a way that was interesting. You just would you know,
Speaker 2: a Cypress point or something like that our Fisher's Island
Speaker 2: would be fascinating. But we just won't get that, I
Speaker 2: don't think until they do something about the distance and
Speaker 2: and that. You know, so those places still might not
Speaker 2: want them. But I guess if I had to vote,
Speaker 2: the one that would be the most interesting to me
Speaker 2: to watch the great players play if they were playing
Speaker 2: a ball that was suited for the course would be
Speaker 2: the National Golf Links of America. Yeah, I think that
Speaker 2: would be That would be the one.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. It's uh, that's that's one that I gotta
Speaker 1: go see here eventually. In terms of you know, I
Speaker 1: know you're you're you're pretty passionate about the ball and
Speaker 1: rolling back the ball, and I think, I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't know how I hit the ball further every year,
Speaker 1: you know, if it's not the ball when I'm you know,
Speaker 1: in not as good of shape and play a lifeless
Speaker 1: and less but seemingly I add five yards of distance
Speaker 1: every year, but you know, the ball is not going
Speaker 1: any further. What would you like to see? You know, like,
Speaker 1: what do you think is the solution? Is it a
Speaker 1: pro ball and an amateur ball or you know, and
Speaker 1: how does that work.
Speaker 2: I really love I've always loved the idea of a
Speaker 2: classic course ball and branding it that way and calling
Speaker 2: it that and I think it's very similar to what
Speaker 2: Mike Davis floated, this variable distance ball. What he floated,
Speaker 2: I think was a little more intricate in terms of
Speaker 2: potential ways the ball could go. And it may just
Speaker 2: be a political reason they put that out there that
Speaker 2: you would you could have a ball that actually goes
Speaker 2: longer for say women to play Aaron Hills or whatever
Speaker 2: it is. It's bring certain courses within reason for lesser
Speaker 2: talented golfers. But I think that the main focus would
Speaker 2: be something that allows you to play, that allows an
Speaker 2: elite offer to go to Pine Valley and have Pine
Speaker 2: Valley play like it did twenty years ago. And you know,
Speaker 2: that's why I've always kind of liked the classic course concept,
Speaker 2: because saft spikes really started at Riviera and a few
Speaker 2: other great old courses and spread because they had that
Speaker 2: sort of endorsement of the classic course element and that
Speaker 2: it was for the good of the maintenance of those courses.
Speaker 2: And now look where we are where spikeless is all
Speaker 2: over the game, and I think that having some of
Speaker 2: those courses a Marion, a Cypress Point, a pine Valley
Speaker 2: be able to be played and also turn in a
Speaker 2: score for handicapping purposes with a ball that is accounted
Speaker 2: for would be the way started and see where it goes.
Speaker 2: But I think the architecture element is more interesting, and
Speaker 2: then you know the pros it has to happen. There's
Speaker 2: just no way. I don't know how they're going to
Speaker 2: play some of these venues coming up on the US
Speaker 2: Open circuit after what we saw at Aaron Hills without
Speaker 2: a ball suited those weeks, and we'll have to listen
Speaker 2: to all the whining about, oh, it's so hard to
Speaker 2: adjust and how dare you do that? And it's it's hogwash,
Speaker 2: of course, because they just went down to the Mexico
Speaker 2: city where there's altitude and they all without their track
Speaker 2: man and they make some adjustments, and I mean, you
Speaker 2: talk about what a non story that ended up being,
Speaker 2: because it's just so it's never been easier to adjust
Speaker 2: your equipment and and you're thinking on distance with track
Speaker 2: man and with the knowledge you know, the caddies are
Speaker 2: so good now and they know so much and so
Speaker 2: so that element of say we had ali a Master's
Speaker 2: ball at Augusta, and every company made it, and they
Speaker 2: made their they made the specs and they tested them. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's a little bit of a pain. And yeah, there's
Speaker 2: going to be a situation where somebody's gonna wonder if
Speaker 2: somebody's playing a juiced ball. But I don't think that's
Speaker 2: going to happen too much. And I think it has
Speaker 2: to happen. I think it will happen, I really do.
Speaker 2: I think that the climate has changed and people are
Speaker 2: kind of realizing that it's not growing the game as
Speaker 2: we've been told it would.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think I played Chicago golf last
Speaker 1: week and something I noticed is just like, you know,
Speaker 1: like the principal's nose bunker on double plateaus is completely
Speaker 1: useless now. I mean, where it used to be something
Speaker 1: that people would have to work. Like, you hit a
Speaker 1: bad drive and all of a sudden you have this
Speaker 1: bunker to contend with. Now it's almost more of a
Speaker 1: bunker off the tee than it was than it is
Speaker 1: for a second shot. And you see this and it's like, wow,
Speaker 1: this is this great golf course where you have this
Speaker 1: beautiful architecture with like Barritz holes, and it's so rare
Speaker 1: to play a radan actually the way a radan should
Speaker 1: be played, because the ball goes so high and you're
Speaker 1: hitting such short shots into this two hundred yard hole,
Speaker 1: you know, and the same with a Burrits it's almost
Speaker 1: impossible to run the ball up to it well.
Speaker 2: And that's the biggest change since I've been bitching and
Speaker 2: moaning about distance that when I started, a good players
Speaker 2: would always go, well, just put a tea back, just
Speaker 2: do this, just grow the rough, narrow it, and you know,
Speaker 2: I'd get pretty frustrated with that, and then it's just
Speaker 2: gradually changed where people no longer and this is the
Speaker 2: exciting thing to me, is that you no longer have
Speaker 2: to convince somebody that that those things are bad ideas.
Speaker 2: It's people have come to realize, wait a second, this
Speaker 2: we have this architectural treasure. Why would you why would
Speaker 2: you do these things to it? Just because because the
Speaker 2: ball and the equipment is so good now, and so
Speaker 2: I think that that the the climate is out there
Speaker 2: that good players now no longer feel like it's the
Speaker 2: job of the course to to to really adjust to
Speaker 2: the equipment and so that's a huge, huge change and
Speaker 2: you hear it in players. I hear it in people
Speaker 2: who go to Pine Valley like, oh, well that wasn't
Speaker 2: very hard. You know, you want to say, well, one,
Speaker 2: the sand used to be all footprints and death if
Speaker 2: you hit it in there. And two yeah, but you
Speaker 2: know it's short. You don't even have any drivers there
Speaker 2: anymore unless you play a few of those silly new
Speaker 2: bacties and those are kind of kind of absurd. But
Speaker 2: so that to me is an exciting change that good
Speaker 2: players are now kind of on board like, oh yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm not really getting tested the way I want to
Speaker 2: be tested, and it's not as fun.
Speaker 1: So outside the ball, like, what do you think has
Speaker 1: been kind of like the biggest tech technological advance that's
Speaker 1: kind of diminished skill in the game.
Speaker 2: Oh the size of the driver head for sure. And
Speaker 2: and and that's one that that you know, Adam Scott
Speaker 2: feels very strongly about just reducing the size of the
Speaker 2: head a little bit and you'd see a big change
Speaker 2: in distance and also a reward for for the truly
Speaker 2: great drivers of the ball. And I would love to
Speaker 2: see that. I think I would love to see an
Speaker 2: event that that that does that just just just limits
Speaker 2: the size of the head and let's look at the
Speaker 2: numbers and let's see how it plays, and let's see
Speaker 2: if the the if if it remains in line with
Speaker 2: who the best drivers are driving the best that week.
Speaker 2: I think it would be fascinating. And you know, things
Speaker 2: like that, we don't We just don't do. You know
Speaker 2: NASCAR has restrictor plates on cars for certain tracks. Why
Speaker 2: why don't we do that in golf where where we
Speaker 2: we have our version of restrict plates so that the
Speaker 2: architecture can shine and the course doesn't have to make
Speaker 2: silly changes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that idea, I think. I mean, you
Speaker 1: see that the change in the way people even swing,
Speaker 1: and you know, this new era of the young twenty
Speaker 1: somethings have grown up with these massive driver heads, and
Speaker 1: their swings reflect it. I mean they're swinging up on
Speaker 1: the ball and they really swing pretty much as hard
Speaker 1: as they can, knowing that, hey, my miss isn't really
Speaker 1: that big of a deal. You know. I remember playing
Speaker 1: like small one hundred and ninety cc heads that if
Speaker 1: you mishit it, I mean it was going nowhere and
Speaker 1: really far right or left.
Speaker 2: Well, oh yeah, Yeah, it was cool, and I don't
Speaker 2: want to go back to those days for all of us.
Speaker 2: And I don't even think that we're talking about a
Speaker 2: reduction in the driver head size that would be even
Speaker 2: close to that. But just just even a slight reduction,
Speaker 2: which is what I Adam Scott's mentioned, would would make
Speaker 2: a huge difference three thirty or somewhere in there and that,
Speaker 2: but we won't know until we try it, so we
Speaker 2: need that to happen first.
Speaker 1: So curious, you know, say, say I gave you just
Speaker 1: like this great piece of land, unlimited budget, and you
Speaker 1: could you could resurrect any architect dead or living, you know,
Speaker 1: and and you wanted to, you know, do a whole
Speaker 1: you know. Of course, who who would you have design
Speaker 1: your course?
Speaker 2: Probably well, obviously I have a strong bias towards George
Speaker 2: Thomas and Billy Bell, so it would it would it
Speaker 2: would be them, or it would be uh McKenzie with
Speaker 2: Robert Hunter. Probably. I just I feel like in terms
Speaker 2: of the whole package of design and artistry and construction,
Speaker 2: function and and just beauty, and that those were the
Speaker 2: teams that that kind of took it to another level.
Speaker 2: And uh I uh yes, I'm I think Thomas was
Speaker 2: was the master more than anybody at at creating something
Speaker 2: that looked great the first time you saw it, but
Speaker 2: then had had enough intricacies within that wouldn't make you
Speaker 2: want to play it over and over again. And his
Speaker 2: view was that that era of golf architecture, what they
Speaker 2: did was just the beginning, and then we'd have more
Speaker 2: courses with the intricacies of the old course, the day
Speaker 2: to day variety and and that and and Mackenzie wrote
Speaker 2: that too, and that didn't happen. Obviously, we went we
Speaker 2: went backwards instead of courses that were actually more uh
Speaker 2: complicated and in their design in a way that was
Speaker 2: fascinating and and and in line with what drew people
Speaker 2: to the old course to begin with, which I think
Speaker 2: is fascinating thing. They viewed it that way.
Speaker 1: It's uh yeah, it's.
Speaker 2: Also I mean, it makes sense you would think they
Speaker 2: were they because remember their view was, well, we were
Speaker 2: just trying to get people away from a certain kind
Speaker 2: of bad penal design and unattractive looking courses and courses
Speaker 2: that didn't drain and and look good. And so they
Speaker 2: logic would tell you, okay, we've got it back to
Speaker 2: this point. But now the next generation's going to go
Speaker 2: this way. Well, it turned out that it went the opposite.
Speaker 1: It's interesting too, because, like the the architecture behind really
Speaker 1: great strategic holes is really kind of simple, and it
Speaker 1: just seems like what happened was it got overdone and
Speaker 1: the subtlety is what makes really intricate and great design
Speaker 1: is subtle little things, not sixty five bunkers down the
Speaker 1: left side of a fair way.
Speaker 2: Well, what's funny too is that with better construction and
Speaker 2: machinery and more knowledge and more technology to do things,
Speaker 2: we actually went backwards in terms of the the attention
Speaker 2: to detail and creating those little intricacies that that would
Speaker 2: make it better and long term a golf course would
Speaker 2: have more permanence. And you know, I think their view
Speaker 2: was that the more you got that kind of technology
Speaker 2: to build a course faster, it would allow you to
Speaker 2: spend more time working out the details and the little
Speaker 2: stuff that we love. But it's gone the opposite way.
Speaker 2: It's just people build it faster and crank it out
Speaker 2: and move on to the next thing. Or they did,
Speaker 2: And obviously we're shifting backwards now in that and Core
Speaker 2: and Crenshaw are really the ones who I mean. Pete
Speaker 2: Die kind of kind of started it with with opening
Speaker 2: our eyes to links golf, but then Coren Crenshaw kind
Speaker 2: of taken it to the next level on the on
Speaker 2: the construction and subtlety side and getting that that great
Speaker 2: mix of something that looks visually enticing but then also
Speaker 2: has a real charm when you when you play it.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. It's you know, so, I know you've written
Speaker 1: You've written a great book on Cyprus, and something I've
Speaker 1: been curious to ask you is, you know, obviously Rayner
Speaker 1: did the routing there and you know, passed away, so
Speaker 1: you know, then Mackenzie took over. What do you what
Speaker 1: do you think the course and how do you think
Speaker 1: it would be compared to the course that's there now
Speaker 1: it had Rainer done that job.
Speaker 2: I yeah, I always struggle with the idea of his
Speaker 2: his aesthetic working on that land.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 2: It just really just is hard to picture. As much
Speaker 2: as I love his golf courses, I just don't know
Speaker 2: if that that's what would have worked there compared to
Speaker 2: what was built with the sort of fringy bunkers that
Speaker 2: mimicked the shapes of the cypress trees, and you know,
Speaker 2: the routing changed quite a bit after he passed away.
Speaker 2: It changed, it changed from Mackenzie's first routing, and that's
Speaker 2: all stuff that they were bickering with Samuel Morse about
Speaker 2: the fourteenth coal they wanted along the cliffs, and they
Speaker 2: had the seventeen mile drive that ended up going there,
Speaker 2: and that was kind of a late and the game change,
Speaker 2: and there were other changes. So that's kind of my sense.
Speaker 2: I'm glad that. I'm not glad that Seth Rayner died,
Speaker 2: but he died, but for the sake of Cypress Point,
Speaker 2: I think for that site, it was the what they
Speaker 2: ended up with was was the right style of architecture
Speaker 2: for that kind of ground.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think one of my favorite, you know,
Speaker 1: pictures in all of golf is like the was it
Speaker 1: the fourteenth hole that goes down into the right and
Speaker 1: you see, you know, you see the water, but then
Speaker 1: the bunkers how they just kind of creep up into
Speaker 1: the dunes. I mean, it's adn't natural. Look, that's almost
Speaker 1: unparalleled on any other course in America at least, so
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of you know, so say say
Speaker 1: you can have any any course in America to restore
Speaker 1: you know, it could be a public, it could be
Speaker 1: a private. You know, like what course you know sticks
Speaker 1: out in your head is one that you would love
Speaker 1: to do a restoration or you know, slash renovation of.
Speaker 2: Well on the public side, obviously, I'm I'm hopeful that
Speaker 2: something happens at Sharp Park. I'm I'm hopeful that, you know,
Speaker 2: someday that something like Cobbs Creek will happen. That's that's
Speaker 2: another amazing site potentially, It's it's just just an incredible
Speaker 2: opportun tunity. But I think if I I mean, if
Speaker 2: there was one golf course I would love to see
Speaker 2: restored and when and would love to try to figure
Speaker 2: out how to do it, would it would be Pebble
Speaker 2: Beach and getting it back to the nineteen twenty nine
Speaker 2: Chandler Egan post Chandler Egan Redo look, and that's the
Speaker 2: one that the more people who see the photos of
Speaker 2: that and ask questions, the more I think it just
Speaker 2: gets so intriguing to realize what it wants, what it had,
Speaker 2: what it became when Egan redid it, and how it
Speaker 2: changed from that. I think it would just blow people away.
Speaker 2: It would. It would be incredible.
Speaker 1: So, you know, I think, you know, obviously one of
Speaker 1: the issues there is kind of the commercialization of Pebble
Speaker 1: Beach and you know, yeah, yeah, but you know, I
Speaker 1: think with what Mike Kaiser and Core and Crenshaw are
Speaker 1: doing is they're promoting a rougher look is a good look,
Speaker 1: So you know, I think, you know, I would say,
Speaker 1: and personally, I think, you know, five ten years it
Speaker 1: might not be that crazy to you know, to foresee
Speaker 1: that being a viable option, would you agree.
Speaker 2: I agree, Yeah, I think that that the trend is
Speaker 2: such that they will. I think, you know, rankings for
Speaker 2: don't have a lot of positive uses these days, but
Speaker 2: but one thing that they are useful for is is
Speaker 2: highlighting a course kind of getting left behind in a
Speaker 2: way in the and the restoration world that we're seeing
Speaker 2: now that as you said earlier, that there aren't I
Speaker 2: can't name any of these where people did a pure
Speaker 2: restoration where people were really unhappy. In fact, they can't
Speaker 2: name one at all.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm sure there's something that you know, I've heard,
Speaker 4: like somebody some people at Colonial don't like what Teeth
Speaker 4: Foster did, although they liked it initially, So I you know,
Speaker 4: I don't know that one looks like he.
Speaker 2: Did a very nice job to me, but maybe more
Speaker 2: people parkening back to wanting the Cogan era look to it.
Speaker 2: And there were some things changing, floods, whatever. But I
Speaker 2: mean that that's really I think, getting desperate trying to
Speaker 2: find an example. So I think that when you look
Speaker 2: at that and the rankings and panelists rewarding places that
Speaker 2: do this and rewarding them not because just because they
Speaker 2: did it, because they go there and they play and
Speaker 2: they they go, wow, this is this is so much fun,
Speaker 2: especially if they played it before and and that's something
Speaker 2: that yeah, where Pebble Beach could could succumb. It's just
Speaker 2: as you know that it's such a to close that
Speaker 2: course down and do that, and the economic impact on
Speaker 2: the course, the lodge and the seventeen mile drive area
Speaker 2: would be pretty incredible. It's a it's a I think
Speaker 2: we were bored one day at the US opened last
Speaker 2: time it was there, and did the masks. A few people.
Speaker 2: We were sitting around and coming up with some possible
Speaker 2: numbers and I can't remember what they were, but they
Speaker 2: were they were hefty on the impact to the region
Speaker 2: if they were to shut the course down for nine months.
Speaker 1: You know, just get a cypress point to open up
Speaker 1: to the public. Right, Yeah, happened.
Speaker 2: That's not gonna happen. Not going to happen. Although you
Speaker 2: know it really Samuel Morris developed it. It was part
Speaker 2: of the uh, it's part of the family. You know,
Speaker 2: maybe it could it could do that for a little while.
Speaker 2: They could charge two thousand dollars green fees and they'd
Speaker 2: probably be booked immediately.
Speaker 1: You know, My grandpa used to go out to there,
Speaker 1: and I guess they used to sell like these week
Speaker 1: passes to Cyprus if you knew a member or something,
Speaker 1: so he'd get it for like a week. And one
Speaker 1: time one of his buddies, one of his buddies came
Speaker 1: out and his buddy hadn't ever seen pebble, so he
Speaker 1: insisted that they go play. And like, you know, till
Speaker 1: his deathbed, it was one of my grandfather's like greatest
Speaker 1: regrets was was having to leave Cyprus to go play
Speaker 1: pebble for a day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can and I can understand that. Of course,
Speaker 2: that's a nice problem to have, is uh. Tele tebble
Speaker 2: even and and and don't get me wrong, in this state,
Speaker 2: it's still a great experience. It's still breaks fun to play.
Speaker 2: There's still nothing quite like it.
Speaker 1: So, uh, you know, one of the courses i'd love
Speaker 1: to see like a restoration of And I'm sure you're
Speaker 1: pretty familiar of it with it being from l A.
Speaker 1: And I just love to hear your two cents is
Speaker 1: is Rancho Park? Mmmm?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Rancho is more of a meaning uh just needing
Speaker 2: some some care. Not that the people who work there
Speaker 2: don't care, it's just that the city of la has
Speaker 2: kind of neglected it's it's all of its courses and
Speaker 2: doesn't know really what what the what is what people
Speaker 2: want in terms of of turf. You know, they think
Speaker 2: people want green grass, but then we've had our drafts,
Speaker 2: so they've cut the water back. And I mean, I
Speaker 2: hear Rancho is so baked out at times that it's
Speaker 2: just not not it's it's and it's not good firm,
Speaker 2: it's not link firm. It's this baked out, rock hard
Speaker 2: thing that that hurts when you hit a ball. And
Speaker 2: so it's a sensational golf course in terms of being
Speaker 2: a cast of every shot, every stance and lie and
Speaker 2: and and you have to move the ball and it's
Speaker 2: it's it's really fun that way, and the players who
Speaker 2: always played there. I caddied in the Senior Tour event
Speaker 2: when it was there. And the old guys who would
Speaker 2: play there are the Trevino's and they used to get
Speaker 2: great fields at that event. Jack Nicholas never played, but
Speaker 2: of course Arnold Palmer had a great relationship with Rancho
Speaker 2: Park and always played, and and Trevino and player would play.
Speaker 2: And it was so much fun watch those guys hit
Speaker 2: shots around there. Billy Casper slinging these big big that
Speaker 2: was it the point where he was sitting a huge
Speaker 2: hook and watching him play that golf course and shape shots,
Speaker 2: and then watch somebody like al Geiberger kind of go
Speaker 2: around with his smooth tempo or Dave Stockton grinding it out.
Speaker 2: And it really is an amazing place that you wish
Speaker 2: would be would be just better, just a little better presented.
Speaker 2: And I think they've taken a hit interestingly there. It's
Speaker 2: not as crowded as it used to be. Of course,
Speaker 2: it used to be ridiculous, you couldn't. People would spend
Speaker 2: the night to get out there, and now you can
Speaker 2: go out on in any afternoon and get out pretty easily.
Speaker 2: And part of that's the state of golf. Part of
Speaker 2: it's the state of the way they they run it
Speaker 2: and present it. They don't have a pro shop. I mean,
Speaker 2: the vendors of all the pro shops in the city
Speaker 2: of la have other than I believe the barbers still
Speaker 2: at Griveth Park have walked away from their their shops.
Speaker 2: Just the city can't even make those work and make
Speaker 2: it work for them. So it's it's one of the
Speaker 2: reasons why I think people aren't very excited about the
Speaker 2: Olympic golf when it comes here. It's like, oh, great,
Speaker 2: We're gonna go to Riviera. And meanwhile, we have this
Speaker 2: public course system that's kind of in shambles, and wouldn't
Speaker 2: it be nice if we we could have this be
Speaker 2: nicer and or even maybe use something like Griverth Park
Speaker 2: for the for the games, but we we are not there.
Speaker 1: Have they picked? Have they picked Riviera as the site? Officially?
Speaker 2: They did? They did. They were originally going to consider
Speaker 2: a public course renovation, uh. And they when the IOC
Speaker 2: went in on the whole use existing venues thing, they
Speaker 2: gravitated towards Riviera and and it's it's gonna be very
Speaker 2: interesting because I don't send a lot of good vibes
Speaker 2: from people that that's gonna be something that gets people excited,
Speaker 2: especially if the format doesn't get more interesting fairly quickly,
Speaker 2: because of course we see every year and so we're
Speaker 2: just gonna go play another stroke play event at Riviera.
Speaker 2: That's great, That's that's not very exciting.
Speaker 1: I mean you think about the money they put into
Speaker 1: like the Rio course. If you could put that into
Speaker 1: a course like Rancho Park, I mean, how good would
Speaker 1: that place be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And there's just such a different vibe when you
Speaker 2: play a tournament in the middle of the city at
Speaker 2: of course that the public can play. It is I
Speaker 2: mean those those Champions Store events, well it was a
Speaker 2: senior tour then at Rancho used to get huge crowds.
Speaker 2: I mean amazing for La you know, twenty twenty five
Speaker 2: thousand people on the weekend, and granted, you know you
Speaker 2: had Trevino and some others not long past their their
Speaker 2: prime playing and Arnold Palmer. That's going to get people there.
Speaker 2: But the energy is just so different and there's just
Speaker 2: nothing like it in tournament golf. But it's it's it's
Speaker 2: needs work, Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's I used to live when I lived I lived
Speaker 1: in La for six months and one of my uh
Speaker 1: one of my places was like right next to Rancho Park.
Speaker 1: I could walk there oh much, and you know, I'd
Speaker 1: go out there at like five six o'clock like any
Speaker 1: I mean it, it's got the bones of such a
Speaker 1: good court. I think about it all the time. It's like,
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of a city owned course, like bones,
Speaker 1: and you know it it could be a really great
Speaker 1: golf course. So something I'll just keep hoping for. But
Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like it's a it's got much of
Speaker 1: a chance. So so I'm kinda we'll get you out
Speaker 1: of here. You know, it's I got the holiday weekend.
Speaker 1: Uh we do. Our tradition is overrated, underrated. So we're
Speaker 1: gonna we're gonna fire some topics at you, and you
Speaker 1: just say overrated, underrated. The short part four.
Speaker 2: I actually have come to the conclusion that's it's underrated.
Speaker 2: And for a couple of reasons. One, we're just starting
Speaker 2: to see people design more and more of them that
Speaker 2: are better and doing different things strategically. And by the way,
Speaker 2: am I supposed to give long answers and.
Speaker 1: These you can do whatever you want.
Speaker 2: But I think the other thing that besides the fact
Speaker 2: that we're just now starting to see all these cool
Speaker 2: iterations of holes and offshoots is that in the era
Speaker 2: of technology, the short part five has kind of died
Speaker 2: as the great risk reward hole, and the short part
Speaker 2: four has kind of picked up the slack and it's
Speaker 2: made I think people more than anything that's gone on,
Speaker 2: the interest in short Part four is in tournament golf
Speaker 2: in the last fifteen twenty years has raised awareness of
Speaker 2: what architecture means to tournament golf, what architecture means to
Speaker 2: every day golf, and how fun well designed holes can be.
Speaker 2: And I think it's all the short part four. Maybe
Speaker 2: a few great risk reward part fives, but short part fours.
Speaker 2: Everybody can enjoy the dynamics. You know, the average golfer
Speaker 2: can be playing a match with a better player and
Speaker 2: beat them on those holes because they play it nice
Speaker 2: and safe and the good player gets greedy that kind
Speaker 2: of thing, And so I can't get enough of them,
Speaker 2: and I hope, I hope it just keeps going and
Speaker 2: people keep demanding more of them on every course.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really like it. I think I think part
Speaker 1: of the issue like it. And it's obviously like a
Speaker 1: huge you know, viewing standpoint, Like there's like a you know,
Speaker 1: a viewing appeal to it. Something that drives me nuts, though,
Speaker 1: is how people like don't appreciate long par fives, Like
Speaker 1: how it it like it has this stigma of like
Speaker 1: it when they were out at Baltisral and everybody was
Speaker 1: like all over the seventeenth hole for like, oh, it's
Speaker 1: so boring. It's like that's like one of the greatest
Speaker 1: long par fives in golf, you know, And I think
Speaker 1: that short part four is kind of I've led to
Speaker 1: that and it's like, well, like you know, they're the
Speaker 1: great architecture, isn't just you know, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: think they're almost overrated because they've become so popular. But
Speaker 1: that's just me think contrar.
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the interesting things that's happened on the
Speaker 2: long par five. And would I would agree with you
Speaker 2: in the sense that they have lost their luster because
Speaker 2: in the technology era, you felt so much pressure on
Speaker 2: the t shot and the second shot to hit two
Speaker 2: good shots to give you yourself that good third. And
Speaker 2: now you hear this all the time. The guys, well
Speaker 2: good players will tell you, well, it's just one hundred
Speaker 2: yard part three, we couldn't go for it, and so
Speaker 2: they forced us to basically play one hundred yard part three.
Speaker 2: And I don't disagree with that assessment when but it
Speaker 2: also you know, helps when you can hit a three
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty yards and then you can hit a hybrid,
Speaker 2: you know, two seventy. Yeah, it's kind of it took
Speaker 2: seven hundred yards. And by the way, we just had
Speaker 2: almost seven hundred yards of Aaron Hills with not much
Speaker 2: role and we still had guys get home into Yeah,
Speaker 2: so to actually build a long par five that does
Speaker 2: what you're you're getting at, which is put that uh
Speaker 2: importance on on every shot. Uh, you really have to,
Speaker 2: I think for good players have about eight hundred yards.
Speaker 1: It is kind of crazy. Yeah, I mean, well, and
Speaker 1: he hit three shots that's uh, or it needs to
Speaker 1: be like seven.
Speaker 2: And there wasn't that much roll. That's what's scary. It
Speaker 2: was and there wasn't that much wind. It was just
Speaker 2: slightly down wind and a little bit of roll, but
Speaker 2: nothing abnormal.
Speaker 1: Maybe they need to go up.
Speaker 2: That was that was nuts. Yeah's and oh yeah, by
Speaker 2: the way, oh yeah, by the way, it basically is
Speaker 2: slat or the last part of that a tenth pall
Speaker 2: of Aaron. It's just is a little slightly up. I mean, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: the tea, the tee t shot is elevated.
Speaker 1: Correct, yeah, most of me.
Speaker 2: Not like you're driving off a cliff. It was. It
Speaker 2: was incredible what they did there. And I heard nobody
Speaker 2: in the press tentk going wow, that's amazing. It was like, Okay,
Speaker 2: this is ridiculous, this is absurd, and that that's a
Speaker 2: big change a few years ago. If I had said,
Speaker 2: and I was the one just sitting there going just nodding,
Speaker 2: and I didn't have a strong view either way because
Speaker 2: I'm used to this, the ridiculousness of this now. But
Speaker 2: it was fascinating. That was the takeaway was not all
Speaker 2: these guys are amazing athletes. That is so awesome. They
Speaker 2: did that on a six hundred and eighty seven yard hold.
Speaker 2: It was consistently okay, enough enough enough, we have to
Speaker 2: do something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's uh, it's out of control. I played. I
Speaker 1: played golf last year with a fourteen year old who
Speaker 1: hit it like fifteen yards pass me. I hit it
Speaker 1: like three hundred yards. And I was like when I
Speaker 1: was fourteen, Utterly, when I was fourteen, I hit a
Speaker 1: two hundred yards.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it's insane and they have
Speaker 2: no The only thing I don't, you know, and I hate,
Speaker 2: I hate to sound like an old fuddy duddy, but
Speaker 2: what it where it does bother me is the game
Speaker 2: is no longer humbling these kids, uh and and I
Speaker 2: think there is some positive element in the game. I
Speaker 2: don't want to go back to Hickory's and being humbled
Speaker 2: by hitting a snap book and and and or in
Speaker 2: the persimmon and steel. That's we don't need to do that.
Speaker 2: But it would be nice if they they had to
Speaker 2: swing just slightly more cautiously at the ball. But with
Speaker 2: track Man and the equipment of the combination, uh, you're
Speaker 2: just you're just going to keep seeing more, uh more
Speaker 2: more guys like Champ from from Texas A and m
Speaker 2: and who just are are freakishly long.
Speaker 1: And I think it diminishes like the impact of like,
Speaker 1: you know, great long iron players, you know, because.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, they're just there.
Speaker 1: Aren't any long irons anymore. You know, long irons are
Speaker 1: you know, an occasional par three and and pretty much
Speaker 1: you know par fives.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, no, it's it's definitely a lost
Speaker 2: part of the game. So and then, by the way,
Speaker 2: a lot of venues, it's all the driver also gets
Speaker 2: taken out of their hands because of this. So and
Speaker 2: to me that's a shame too. I want to see
Speaker 2: the driver used.
Speaker 1: What do you think about hosting a tournament at like
Speaker 1: a sixty eight hundred yard classic course. That's like obviously
Speaker 1: if it rained at all, you know, we'd have to
Speaker 1: put a dome over it. But that's like, you know,
Speaker 1: nice and crispy, you know, firm and fast where you
Speaker 1: know guys could go for the green. But all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, you know, if you hit into the wrong spot,
Speaker 1: you've got you know, impossible angles and and so on.
Speaker 1: So far, what do you think about a golf turn
Speaker 1: being played at something like that?
Speaker 2: It would be nice, but you know, if if you're
Speaker 2: okay with them hitting iron off most of the t's
Speaker 2: which is where we're headed, and I'm not okay with that.
Speaker 2: I like to see the driver used and used to
Speaker 2: to to gain a reward. And that's the problem. That's
Speaker 2: where you need the ball that that is better suited
Speaker 2: for those courses.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. So next next topic, we'll do modern
Speaker 1: green design overrated underrated.
Speaker 2: Uh, well, they're overrated and that most of them aren't
Speaker 2: very good, so they're they're underrated and how bad they are.
Speaker 2: And that's not all the architects fault, but I h
Speaker 2: it's it's two things. It's it's the one that the
Speaker 2: u s g A green or the or the modified
Speaker 2: us G greens. It's very hard to construct and very high,
Speaker 2: hard to tie into the surrounds and the kind of
Speaker 2: had the fairway just meld into the green. I mean
Speaker 2: the best courses, you feel like the green is almost
Speaker 2: just an extension of the contours of the ground and
Speaker 2: the fairway. And I think that's why people respond to
Speaker 2: links golf so much, because those that's exactly what they are.
Speaker 2: So when you're playing this kind of nice, gentle ground
Speaker 2: and then you come upon this thing that's sort of
Speaker 2: propped up artificially and overcontoured, it's it's it's it's offensive
Speaker 2: to me and most people's senses, and a lot of
Speaker 2: it's the The construction of the USGA green is just
Speaker 2: very hard to do. That That's why Corn Crenshaw don't
Speaker 2: build USGA greens. They dump a big area of sand
Speaker 2: where the green complexes and then and then melded into
Speaker 2: the the fairway and the surrounding landscape.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think. I think one of the things that's
Speaker 1: happened with like the modern era of architecture, where you know,
Speaker 1: we've got this playability and we get all this with
Speaker 1: is that architects focus like, oh, I'm going to make
Speaker 1: this tough for the good player by making this green
Speaker 1: crazy undulated, you know, and then it's like but like
Speaker 1: to me, I think, you know, when you have that
Speaker 1: big undulation is almost easier because you just you can
Speaker 1: see the break. You know, it's very clear which way
Speaker 1: this putt breaks. And you know, you see these classic courses,
Speaker 1: a lot of them. You get on the green and
Speaker 1: and there will be these small little subtleties with the
Speaker 1: flatter greens where you can't even see the break and
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, this is right edge, and then you
Speaker 1: miss it a ball right because it moves a little
Speaker 1: and you and that's what drives you know, players nut
Speaker 1: versus you know that average players, it's going to try
Speaker 1: and ram it in the back of the hole and
Speaker 1: probably makes it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, No, subtlety and green design is definitely something
Speaker 2: that I think that's why people love what Ben and
Speaker 2: Bill do they they they have kind of that character
Speaker 2: that you're you just described. M.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's interesting. It'll be interesting to see how
Speaker 1: how it continues to progress. But I think that that
Speaker 1: less is almost more and and green. So Jordan Spieth overrated, underrated?
Speaker 2: Uh? Well, I don't. I don't think he's overrated as
Speaker 2: a as a talent. I think he gets a lot
Speaker 2: out of his uh, his ability. I H So, I
Speaker 2: think he's uh, uh, he's a he's a complicated individual,
Speaker 2: I think, more more so than people realize. And uh,
Speaker 2: I'm I I don't know if he should be if
Speaker 2: he should be trying to be calmer and quieter on
Speaker 2: the course, or if it'd be like Lee Tremino trying
Speaker 2: to shut him up and and and make him less
Speaker 2: funny and more serious, if if if it would backfire
Speaker 2: in that sense, as it would with Jordan, I think
Speaker 2: that he's uh. I I think he's an incredible talent.
Speaker 2: And uh, it's amazing what he's doing right now with
Speaker 2: his putting really not being even close to what it
Speaker 2: was and looking so bad sometimes over the ball. I mean,
Speaker 2: I don't think people are giving him enough credit. How
Speaker 2: good his ball striking has gotten and you know, you
Speaker 2: know how the game is. Of course, soon as you
Speaker 2: work on that, you know, another part gets neglected. And
Speaker 2: I think that's what's happened with him a little bit.
Speaker 2: So if the putting just comes back to being solid,
Speaker 2: doesn't even have to be what it was in twenty fifteen,
Speaker 2: I think he's he's really really gonna win a lot.
Speaker 2: So I don't know, maybe i'd say underrated in the
Speaker 2: sense that I think he's underrated and now how many
Speaker 2: things he's doing well. I just also but I do
Speaker 2: wonder about the attitude if all that, I mean this
Speaker 2: Fox picked up so much dialogue at Aaron Hills. My gosh,
Speaker 2: he talks a lot. On the course. He puts so
Speaker 2: much energy into all this, this immediate reactions to the
Speaker 2: shots and then in the play by play, and I
Speaker 2: part of me thinks that's great, that's his nervous energy,
Speaker 2: that's how he functions. But part of me wonders, sees
Speaker 2: five and a half hours, Yeah, that's got to get exhausting.
Speaker 1: It's it's interesting, It's I think it was either was
Speaker 1: it Phil that said you either have to be like
Speaker 1: incredibly intelligent or like extremely dumb. To be really great
Speaker 1: at golf.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and I think he's.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's on the spectrum of incredibly intelligent and has
Speaker 1: you know, is thinking about so many different levels of
Speaker 1: things that I would me and you would never even
Speaker 1: you know, come across our mind versus you know, a
Speaker 1: Boo weekly I mean talk about all time right, contrasts
Speaker 1: and final pairings like you know, I think I think
Speaker 1: he's I think he's underrated, you know, I hear you
Speaker 1: hear people say like, oh, he got lucky to win
Speaker 1: that tournament, like well, like you know, as certain to
Speaker 1: a certain degree, like you can't get lucky and win
Speaker 1: like what was he won ten times? Now?
Speaker 2: Yeah that's not luck. Yeah, that's still I think the
Speaker 2: thing that's fascinating about him, that's that fascinates us with
Speaker 2: a lot of these players, like a Nicholas or Bobby Jones,
Speaker 2: is that you're right there. They are very thoughtful, introspective.
Speaker 2: They're noticing every little detail. And when you see somebody
Speaker 2: like that and you know golf, it's and Ben Crenchaw
Speaker 2: is the same way. He notices every little thing about
Speaker 2: a golf course. But they are able to set aside
Speaker 2: whatever feelings they have about a course or the setup
Speaker 2: or the weather or this or that, and ultimately just
Speaker 2: just try to get the job done. And yeah, he's
Speaker 2: had times where he's i think lost a little of
Speaker 2: that just because he's he's pressing. But I think ultimately
Speaker 2: we're fascinated by those players way more than the one
Speaker 2: who's And nothing against Dustin Johnson, but it just kind
Speaker 2: of quietly just goes and doesn't really think too much.
Speaker 2: I mean, we admire the way he handled Oakmont, but
Speaker 2: in terms of watching the sport, it's always been more
Speaker 2: interesting to study somebody who is thinking so much in
Speaker 2: a sport where you have so much time to think,
Speaker 2: but then is able to set things aside most of
Speaker 2: the time and play the shots no matter how they
Speaker 2: how they feel about them, for the circumstances.
Speaker 1: He's I think if you were going to say one
Speaker 1: player to move the needle in this post Tiger generation,
Speaker 1: he's the only one that really could, you.
Speaker 2: Know, yeah right now, He's the one that has a
Speaker 2: certain it factor that that would be obviously no one's
Speaker 2: gonna I don't think ever reached the level of Tiger
Speaker 2: in terms of being intriguing to general sports fans. He's
Speaker 2: just one of a kind. Somebody might come along, But
Speaker 2: I do sense that speak has something that makes people
Speaker 2: out the numbers show it that makes people want to
Speaker 2: tune in and and and watch him down the stretch.
Speaker 2: That's that's different than take your pick any of the
Speaker 2: other top players.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we'll do one more here. Omar your rusty
Speaker 1: as a PGA pro.
Speaker 2: I don't know if he's underrated or overran. You probably
Speaker 2: noticed I did not take on this vital topic. This
Speaker 2: is a to me, a first world issue. I'm far
Speaker 2: more offended by people who played the tour for several
Speaker 2: years regaining their amateur status than a guy who played
Speaker 2: the tour who has become a sweater folder and made
Speaker 2: his way into the PGA Championship where they still where
Speaker 2: they give twenty spots twenty Okay, it wasn't like he
Speaker 2: took the lone spots. So this controversy, to me, spoke
Speaker 2: to a certain kind of really delusional almost sense of
Speaker 2: what the Club Pro Championship means to the p Look.
Speaker 2: Nineteen other guys got in calm down, and that was
Speaker 2: kind of it for me. I'm again, I'm much more
Speaker 2: bothered by somebody who made a lot of money on
Speaker 2: the tour and then is going competing as an amateur again.
Speaker 2: That doesn't sit as well. Yeah, you know, I don't
Speaker 2: know if it sits well with anybody.
Speaker 1: Well, I was in the midam last year and I'm
Speaker 1: looking down the field and I'm like, Mike Muir didn't
Speaker 1: he plan I look it up. He made like he
Speaker 1: almost made a million dollars play on tour and he's
Speaker 1: now he's a midam. I'm like, how am I in
Speaker 1: him at all? In the same you know field here?
Speaker 1: And you know I got guys like Jess Daley who
Speaker 1: you know, you know, played for you know, fifteen twenty
Speaker 1: years on many tours. I mean it to me, and
Speaker 1: you know he got his tour card for a year
Speaker 1: or two. To me, that is like the biggest I
Speaker 1: don't understand how the USGA deems them an amateur because
Speaker 1: they haven't played, you know, for professionally for two years.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there are a lot of issues with amateur
Speaker 2: status right now. And not to go down a rat hole,
Speaker 2: but I really think we're at a point that's very
Speaker 2: dangerous for amter golf. The combination of the gobs of
Speaker 2: free equipment, the you know when I when I played,
Speaker 2: I had to actually cover my Pepperdine logo in a
Speaker 2: in a USGA qualifier a couple of times, and that
Speaker 2: was going too far, obviously. But this idea, now you
Speaker 2: have kids growing up with wearing all the corporate stuff
Speaker 2: and getting free equipment. I don't you know the concept
Speaker 2: of the amateur And I got why it was done.
Speaker 2: It was to help people who who didn't have access
Speaker 2: versus those who did to great stuff and great equipment,
Speaker 2: and it is vital in the way the equipment impacts
Speaker 2: the game now, but I feel like it's undermining amateur
Speaker 2: golf in a way that's really really dangerous. You know,
Speaker 2: we have this Walker Cup in the US Amateur coming
Speaker 2: up here in southern California. I don't sense any enthusiasm
Speaker 2: for either one. I don't think people even know what
Speaker 2: amateur golf means anymore. So it's like, oh, okay, it's
Speaker 2: like some you know, college kids or what is it.
Speaker 2: You know, you try to explain it to people, and
Speaker 2: this is a US freaking amateur here. Come on, this
Speaker 2: is this used to be a big, big deal, and
Speaker 2: I just don't know. I think they went a little
Speaker 2: too far in allowing the rules to bend, and then
Speaker 2: you throw in things like that reinstate and amateurs, which
Speaker 2: they're not having the impact that they did early on,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't make you feel like the amateur game
Speaker 2: is as pure as it once was or should be.
Speaker 1: You know, it's something that's really interesting as like how
Speaker 1: the USGA over the last year has it to me,
Speaker 1: it looks like they've prioritized. Hey, you know, we're we're
Speaker 1: kind of more backing professional golf than amateur golf. You know,
Speaker 1: they eliminated the state team, which was a big mid
Speaker 1: am event. Then they they cut one of the mid
Speaker 1: am spots and and from what I've heard, they're going
Speaker 1: to cut a second mid am the second mid am spot,
Speaker 1: and then they added another professional turnament.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry on the on the walker cut the meme.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, no that that and I think that
Speaker 2: was a mistake though too, and that all David Fay
Speaker 2: said it best when it happened, So it should have
Speaker 2: just been an unwritten rule. You're going to take two
Speaker 2: midamters because there's gonna be a year and this year
Speaker 2: could even be the year, or you actually want to
Speaker 2: take three. Uh, you don't know what's either way college
Speaker 2: golfers are turning crow, there're gonna be years where you
Speaker 2: don't want to take any or you only take one.
Speaker 2: And they have made it. The set number was it
Speaker 2: almost was the meaning to the minameter game. To me,
Speaker 2: that that like they needed this charitable but anyway go on.
Speaker 1: But then but then so they eliminate the state team
Speaker 1: and then you know, they and then and then they're
Speaker 1: eliminating these spots. So it's like you're killing the am
Speaker 1: I mature, you know, like because you know, you're saying, hey,
Speaker 1: we're going to feel the team of all future pros.
Speaker 1: And then they add, you know, they eliminate state team
Speaker 1: and add the US Women's Senior Open, you know, another
Speaker 1: professional term. And and to me it's just like, you know,
Speaker 1: it leaves me scratching my head. It's like, you know,
Speaker 1: like you know, what's the difference between the state team
Speaker 1: and which one actually moves the needle more the Senior
Speaker 1: Women's Open. Is there an audience for that?
Speaker 2: I don't think so. And especially with the age when
Speaker 2: it being fifty, you know, I just I don't think
Speaker 2: I think that's too old. I think that that really
Speaker 2: women mature faster and they their their careers speak accordingly,
Speaker 2: and that it should have been forty five years old.
Speaker 2: But that's another story. It'll be the great golf Course,
Speaker 2: So there's that. But yeah, I'm I think that the
Speaker 2: USCA in general is has a I mean, look, they
Speaker 2: made their first tea starter at the US Open is
Speaker 2: a longtime golf pro. And not pick on him, but
Speaker 2: if you told Frank Hanigan or some of the PJ
Speaker 2: Bowwright that they'd made the first t announcers job lifetime
Speaker 2: appointment to a longtime PGA pro and not a somebody
Speaker 2: who serves the game as in the amateur game or
Speaker 2: has served the USGA, they just would they would just
Speaker 2: lose their minds, like what are you trying to do?
Speaker 1: Here?
Speaker 2: Are you trying to be? And Frank always warned against
Speaker 2: this trying to be loved, and that's kind of what's happened.
Speaker 2: I'd also throw in I'm not sure how the four
Speaker 2: balls have really gone over very well yet so far.
Speaker 2: I don't I'm not sensing the time of year is
Speaker 2: working and for the people that they wanted to be
Speaker 2: playing in those events. That does that seem like a
Speaker 2: fair observation?
Speaker 1: Is it is a bad time of the year, like
Speaker 1: you know, like for example, like I played my qualifier
Speaker 1: in like October, you know, and then the event is
Speaker 1: in end of May. You know, it's like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know the date.
Speaker 2: The date seems to have been chosen to try to
Speaker 2: prevent college players from being able to play in it.
Speaker 2: But instead of yeah, what's the best date for for
Speaker 2: the majority? And I don't I don't see how as
Speaker 2: somebody who you know, that that they were hoping to
Speaker 2: get the person who's that plays a club club invitationals
Speaker 2: with a partner, that that that date works for them.
Speaker 2: I don't see it.
Speaker 1: Well, the other issue is that you just have these
Speaker 1: kids that will go qualify their college players. If their
Speaker 1: team doesn't make it to the nationals there, then they
Speaker 1: play the floorball, you know, right right, So you haven't
Speaker 1: even protected that aspect of it. But you know, that's
Speaker 1: a you know, that's a whole bag of worms that
Speaker 1: about two thousand people in the in the world care about.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, we don't need to go down there
Speaker 2: at all. But I think it is worth exploring because overall,
Speaker 2: what it speaks to is, you know, the USGA is
Speaker 2: is I'm not going to say they're in crisis, But
Speaker 2: they definitely have an identity issue that they're they're they're
Speaker 2: obsessed with their brand and branding them and that's why
Speaker 2: you see their logo everywhere and and this is this
Speaker 2: is the problem. They want to be loved. And so
Speaker 2: if we get to get back to the ball issue,
Speaker 2: they they know that that won't go over well as
Speaker 2: does the RNA if they do try and introduce something.
Speaker 2: So that's that is a big issue going forward on
Speaker 2: whether we ever get something done, because they will will
Speaker 2: they act in or not acting out of fear of
Speaker 2: being vilified and hated for doing something. And that's why
Speaker 2: I but that's why I'm encouraged by the variable distance
Speaker 2: ball concept that they floated, because I think they found
Speaker 2: something which was kind of an argument a lot of
Speaker 2: us made all all along, was if you tailored balls
Speaker 2: to certain architecture and course is nobody can can argue
Speaker 2: with that. You know, go go play your your current
Speaker 2: ball at Aaron Hills. But if you want to play
Speaker 2: Pine Valley the way it was supposed to be designed,
Speaker 2: or you want to play Rancho Park UH at sixty
Speaker 2: five hundred yards the way Lee Treno played it. UH
Speaker 2: and in the Uh, in the seventies in the LA
Speaker 2: Open and really really get to to have a great,
Speaker 2: great fun test of golf. That's it's and hit some
Speaker 2: long irons and shape some shots, play the variable the
Speaker 2: twenty percent or the ten percent reduced ball here and
Speaker 2: you'll you'll, uh, you'll get your money's worth kind of thing. So, uh,
Speaker 2: it'll be very interesting to see if they're able to
Speaker 2: sell it. Uh, that's that's going to.
Speaker 1: Be the key. Why doesn't a company just start making them?
Speaker 1: Like I don't know how big the market would be,
Speaker 1: but like I would.
Speaker 2: You have I'm I'm with you. I don't I back
Speaker 2: to soft spikes. I've never understood why somebody doesn't want
Speaker 2: to be the first. And again it's all the packaging.
Speaker 2: You know, it's it's not gonna it's not gonna taint again.
Speaker 2: You know, maybe they look at things like coke and
Speaker 2: classic coke and and think, you know, there's there must
Speaker 2: be corporate business school stuff that's taught that that they've
Speaker 2: they've picked up. Because I just can't grasp why you
Speaker 2: wouldn't want to be the court the ball that that
Speaker 2: caters to somebody like you, or to Buddy Marucci's or
Speaker 2: of the world or other people who play great golf
Speaker 2: courses and who are good players. Why you wouldn't It
Speaker 2: just seems like not a complicated thing to do to
Speaker 2: appeal to that group, because they're tastemakers. Let's face it,
Speaker 2: these all these old classic golf clubs can can change things.
Speaker 2: And the saft spikes example is the perfect example of
Speaker 2: that that people are like, what are these stupid things
Speaker 2: that nobody's ever going to go away from? Spikes? Uh?
Speaker 2: And these places mandated it. They changed them out. Soft
Speaker 2: spikes became a became a verb or a noun. I'm
Speaker 2: not sure what what would that be? What it would
Speaker 2: be a uh, well, it's like Xerox, you know, instead
Speaker 2: of making photocopies, you you make a Xerox And and
Speaker 2: so I'm not sure why a company doesn't want to
Speaker 2: be that one. I mean, Bridgestone, I believe is the
Speaker 2: one that's made balls for the U.
Speaker 1: S c.
Speaker 2: A that they've tested, but they have yet to uh,
Speaker 2: they've yet to come to market with this ball. And
Speaker 2: I think it's and it's hard to get a hold
Speaker 2: of them even like they're like they're asteroids, you know,
Speaker 2: and if you look at them too long you'll lose
Speaker 2: your eyesight or something. Give me a break.
Speaker 1: I'm looking at eBay right now. You know, I'm thinking
Speaker 1: about buying some tour of biladas and taking them out
Speaker 1: for a spin next time I play someone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, yeah, I've got some. I was cleaning
Speaker 2: a closet here and I got some professionals that I kept.
Speaker 2: You know, now, that was the ball where it kind
Speaker 2: of made a big first, big leap. So they're not
Speaker 2: the tour Biloada would be the one. But I don't
Speaker 2: miss the days of those where you just breathe on
Speaker 2: them and you could, you could, you know, cut.
Speaker 1: Them blade a ledge and they're done right. Oh is
Speaker 1: the market?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Signed the market forums? Rough, it's like fifty five bucks
Speaker 1: for a dozen. Unbelievable. You know what actually you know
Speaker 1: is so might have to go to some garage sales.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's you may have to stumble on them.
Speaker 1: Now, now that we're talking about going to garage sales,
Speaker 1: I think we've we've hit our time here. So hey,
Speaker 1: I appreciate the time, And you got anything exciting coming up?
Speaker 2: I'm heading to the UK for a few days at
Speaker 2: the Scottish Open and then the Open championship and uh,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go see the the new golf course at
Speaker 2: Turnbury and I'll probably play a late evening nine or
Speaker 2: eighteen Prestwick. So things are things are good here. I'm
Speaker 2: looking forward. I've never been to Brookdale. I just started
Speaker 2: reading about it. I know very little. All I know
Speaker 2: is people love it.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 2: They don't really know why, but people just really respond
Speaker 2: to that course. So I'm very excited to see that
Speaker 2: as a as a venue. I think it's uh, it's
Speaker 2: it should be a lot of fun and uh it's
Speaker 2: a wide open open championship. So yeah, if you have
Speaker 2: any suggestions on other other courses around that area, uh,
Speaker 2: I'm all yours.
Speaker 1: I haven't ever been, but you know, I read a lot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's uh, it seems like there's it's like
Speaker 1: the best area in England for for golf, you know,
Speaker 1: is that brooked areas.
Speaker 2: That's the view. But right from so far from what
Speaker 2: I've seen, that area is great, but it's still really
Speaker 2: hard to beat.
Speaker 1: Scotland.
Speaker 2: Just uh, you.
Speaker 1: Should try and get out to the Swineley forests and uh.
Speaker 2: And Lley don't call it finally that you'll upset the
Speaker 2: members there you can invite it out.
Speaker 1: Walking.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one area that I have I have not
Speaker 2: been able to do in depth, the Heathlands area, so
Speaker 2: it's definitely a priority. It's just that London this this
Speaker 2: this year is just not a city that I want
Speaker 2: to get too close to so day anyway. But I'm
Speaker 2: looking forward to.
Speaker 1: Find a find a find a farmhouse or something, get
Speaker 1: out there and yeah, get out of the hustle and bustle,
Speaker 1: you know, absolutely all right, Well, Jeff, thanks, thanks so much,
Speaker 1: and uh well we'll talk soon, all right.
Speaker 2: Thanks