WEBVTT - Geoff Shackelford 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.840 I miss the green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:02.840 --> 0:00:04.960 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:05.920 And when I find my. 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:09.000 Ball in a brid Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Friday Egg, 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:12.719 Friday Frida Egg Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:14.160 run off of the course. 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:42.440 Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome back to another edition of the 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:46.240 Frida Egg Podcast. I'm your host, Andy Johnson, and today 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:51.240 I'm joined by the illustrious golf writer, part time golf 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:55.800 course architect Jeff Shackleford. Jeff, thanks for coming. 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:58.120 On, Thanks for having me, and it good to be here. 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:01.920 Yeah, yeah, I mean, how are you recovering from such 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:07.320 an entertaining packed weekend of golf. You know, all these 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:10.759 events played at the same time on different networks. 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:12.960 What were you watching? 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:17.000 I was going back and forth and uh and and 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:19.039 bemoaning the fact that they were all ending at the 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:23.319 same time and muttering things about how we need more 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:26.880 West Coast venues and tournament golf because I do that 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:31.840 in general, but also because it helps spread out finishes. 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:36.160 So I you know, they weren't the greatest golf tournaments 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:38.000 in the history of the world, but I when you 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:40.960 see a Danielle King and that kind of a great 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:44.120 story and emotional story. You kind of would like to 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:47.680 be sitting there just shavoring that one and and and 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:51.559 enjoying it. And then uh, you know the Senior Open. 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:53.520 It's it's a you never know what's going to happen 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:55.640 in a USGA event like that. I'd kind of like 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:58.280 to savor the finish that there. And then you know, 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:03.400 anything at TPC uh whatever, it's called Avenel Potomac something 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:06.120 or other. They've changed it there is it is it 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:10.200 Potomac Potomac at Avonel Farms I think is the full name. 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.360 But anyway, it's weird things happened there, and it was 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:17.200 kind of a wacky, wacky uh finish down the stretch 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:21.520 with some some oddball characters which I like. And so yeah, 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:24.320 one of them should have been finished today. And this 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:27.600 is just a problem golf has with uh, with scheduling. 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:30.560 There's a lot of stuff out there and and the 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:34.200 the groups don't always see eyed I on on when 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:36.080 to finish these things, and then we end up with 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:36.760 something like that. 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:38.640 Yeah, I mean, it would have been nice if they 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:43.240 had had term in action over Saturday Sunday Monday Tuesday 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:46.680 essentially gotten four days of weekend action. But you know, 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:50.720 it is what it is. So you know, a question 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:54.800 I've always wondered, UH, is how did you kind of 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:57.920 get into golf course architecture? Obviously, you know it's something 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:00.600 you wrote a ton about early in your career and 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:02.160 just was curious about that. 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:07.160 Well, from a pretty young age, I was interested in 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:10.720 drawing golf holes for some unknown reason, like a lot 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:14.520 of people. And then I was very lucky in that 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:18.920 my dad was a took me on a lot of 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:22.560 trips when he was announcing college basketball, and even back 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:24.560 when he was with the Lakers. I even went on 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:28.440 a couple of trips then. But when he went to 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:33.120 work for American Golf Corporation and Acquisitions, we traveled to 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:38.360 a lot of places and saw a lot of rundown 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:42.680 munis that they were looking to try and acquire. And 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:45.320 then we also played some good golf courses in those areas, 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:48.360 so that got my interest going. And then obviously he 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:52.520 joined Rivier when I was sixteen, and and then had 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:56.680 George Thomas's book, So that combination of getting to see 0:03:56.680 --> 0:04:02.000 that and study George Thomas's right, it was really important 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:05.320 as well. And then and then things kind of went 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:08.400 to another level when they did the restoration project. And 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:11.480 I was kind of near the end of my time 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:16.760 in college and losing interest in playing and fascinated by 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:20.159 what that course had been, and I started kind of 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:24.039 doing research on my own, and I started showing some 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:27.280 of that to Ben and Bill and did Jim mcfillamy, 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.119 the superintendent at the time there, who was running the job. 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:33.839 And unfortunately I was finding things that they didn't know about, 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:37.080 or they had suspected existed but had no documentation of. 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:41.960 And so their project in nineteen ninety three was more 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:47.400 of a it was a restoration of the evolved course, 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:51.240 if that makes sense, And so that was kind of 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:53.840 that was fun. And then I got to know them 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:57.000 and learn from them, and Dave Exellent and Dan Procter 0:04:57.120 --> 0:04:59.840 of the Shapers, and so it was just a common 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:03.279 of things that happened. And but it's always been something 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:06.839 I've been just just naturally drawn to. 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:10.040 It's interesting. I wanted to talk a little bit about 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:13.840 Riviera later, you know, curious since you've done a lot 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:16.560 of research on it, and I know, you know, everybody 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:18.960 that watches Golf Channel knows you love the way the 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:22.800 water moves off the golf course. But if you were 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:25.920 going to do one kind of thing, like if they 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:28.440 they hired you to do a restoration tomorrow and a 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:31.239 kind of long range plan, what would be the first 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:32.839 thing that you do to that golf course? 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:40.320 Probably reclaim the look of the Baranka and try and 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:42.880 get that what you see in the old photos of 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:46.720 a sandy sandy wash through the course and then up 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:49.680 up the thirteenth pole on the left side, and down 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:52.039 the middle of the eighth and down the right of 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.800 the seventh. I mean, that was the thing at La 0:05:55.880 --> 0:06:00.200 Country Club. That that that I bent Gilsier about and 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:03.440 over again, and he was, of course, he was in agreement, 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:09.800 and we had to get the Baranka back because there's 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:13.200 just nothing like that that element of a golf course. 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:15.680 You can do great bunkers, you can have great strategy 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:19.960 and beautiful green complexes and this and that and restore 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:24.000 whole locations, but if you don't have that kind of 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:29.440 the color, the texture, the all the elements the coolness 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:33.560 that sandy Baranka brinks because there's really nothing quite like 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:36.479 them in the terms of hazards and in golf, and 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:39.640 it's kind of a something that's unique to southern California 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:41.919 to have these sandy washes that you can go and 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:46.000 hit a recovery shot from and they function, they're part 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:49.440 of the way the golf course plays in the winter time, 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:52.120 et cetera, et cetera. And mostly just the look. And 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:55.400 so that's where Riviera's has become kind of a it's 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:57.800 a two color golf course. It's green, and it's got 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:01.599 white bunker sand and trees, and it's it's it's lost 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:03.680 a certain visual. 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:05.680 Identity. 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:06.200 Intrigued. 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:11.200 Yeah, yeah, it's it's interesting. I I you know, you 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:15.000 think about Riviera and it you know, being there, you know, 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:18.640 it's definitely a site that wasn't blessed with a lot 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:23.760 I mean, as a canyon as small. Yeah, Like you know, 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:26.120 when you talk about the great golf courses in the world, 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:28.760 it's got to be one of the best with one 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:31.440 of the worst sites. You know, and in your opinion, 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:34.320 you know, is it, you know, one of the three 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:37.080 or four most architecturally sound golf courses. 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:42.800 Not as much now it still is, but they've they've 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:46.680 just taken so many, so many great subtleties and and 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:52.320 cool elements of it. Out either either just through ignorance 0:07:52.480 --> 0:08:00.000 or just not really understanding it. And so I just 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.080 feel like when you see where so many other golf 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:06.280 courses have gone in the restoration movement we've seen and 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:10.440 Riviera's gone backwards, that it's it's really fallen far behind. 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:13.119 And I never would have said that, I mean, growing 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:15.840 up there. If I match played it, I think you 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:17.880 and I may have discussed this, But if I match 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:22.840 played it against La North, it always won two and one, 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:25.880 three and two handily. And that was me being charitable, 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:29.920 thinking I had a home course homeri Ism thing going. 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:34.760 And now it's the other way around. La La breathes 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:37.640 to an easy two and one, three and two victory 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:43.240 depending on my mood, and it's just there's just too 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:45.439 many weak elements. I think the thing that stands out 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:49.080 for me there is when the University of Texas guys 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:53.240 were going there for the NCAA's, their coaches asked my 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:56.520 dad and I about local knowledge and things they should 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.040 be on the lookout for, and it was sad. I 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:02.720 went through it and there was really only one great 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:05.800 sucker pin left. They had kind of taken some of 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:09.560 the angles out with the green enlargements where of course 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:12.640 used to have several great whole locations that you would 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:14.720 just think, oh, I can go with that. And the 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:18.720 way the bunkers were angled it was idiotic. And they 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:21.679 they they've they've eliminated those and it's it's a little 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:23.800 it's a little stuff like that when you take that 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:26.719 out of a strategic course, and of course that had 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:30.160 evolved in a certain way that I think is uh 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:31.679 is unfortunate. 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:36.920 Yeah, I mean, it's it is interesting how you know 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:40.080 they you know, everybody's doing this restoration thing and you 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:43.720 know it seeming seemingly everybody's coming out winners from it. 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:47.120 But you know, they have you know, more money and 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:50.360 you know, ability to do you know, a restoration, more 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:52.560 so than almost any club in the in the country. 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:55.960 And they yet they they haven't really done a true restoration. 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:01.440 No, No, it's unfortunate. And they they had every opportunity 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:03.880 to and many people trying to guide them there, but 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:06.719 they they don't want to do that. And I've heard 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:09.120 there now now again looking at trying to put water 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:13.160 in the branca again, so be kind of the polar 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:15.320 opposite of what I would I would do there. So 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:18.280 it's it's a it's a helpless Uh, it's a helpless 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:20.959 cause sadly, So you know. 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:23.000 Maybe we'll go to a little bit uh, you know, 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:25.920 brighter subject will stay in the LA area. And I 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:30.280 you know, you and Gil completed your work at LACC 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:35.680 South Course earlier this this year, and you know, I'm 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:38.480 just kind of curious about, you know, the project, you 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:40.800 know what the goal was, and you know, now that 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:43.360 you've had a few months, how how the how's the 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:44.400 member feedback? Then? 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:51.160 Well, it was the second course there in architecturally as 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:53.520 long as I've been alive and for a long long time, 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:56.600 and it was it was but the course that got 0:10:56.640 --> 0:11:00.640 more play, and it was probably sixty percent there and 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:03.319 forty percent of the North. Well, after the North was redone, 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:08.120 the combination of the better grass and conditioning for most 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:12.400 people and then obviously the better architecture for certain players 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:16.000 there made the North just much more popular, and it 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:20.040 shifted the other way to sixty of the play there 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:23.040 and maybe even seventy percent. And so the goal was 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.320 to get the South back to where people wanted to 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:29.240 play it. And then there were some issues with a 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:32.040 neighboring building that has yet to be built but will 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:36.160 be built eventually between the Beverly Hilton and the South 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:39.280 Course that was going to, in our insane world, put 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:42.600 the club in a bad spot where where even though 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:46.040 it's been there one hundred and twenty years, that t 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:49.280 shots that would would go into that new building would 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.480 would be would be the problem of the club. So 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:56.000 they needed us to re route some holes on that 0:11:56.120 --> 0:12:00.280 end of the course, and it turned into an open 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:05.840 canvas really once we showed them that rerouting, and the 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:07.960 decision was made, well, if we're going to do this, 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:10.000 let's do it right. That's kind of how they are 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:12.520 there and it's just a great club that way. And 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:15.719 so we, uh, you know, I got to spend a 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:19.760 lot of time trying to come up with different routing scenarios, 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:24.000 and Gilt would would chime in, and we we and 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:27.400 Russ Meyers, the superintendent would And it was the most 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:31.359 difficult thing I've ever worked on because we had to 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:35.160 keep the holes basically on the perimeter playing the same 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:38.760 way in terms of tea shots, so that if we 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:42.160 started sending balls onto streets or into houses that that 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:44.720 had not gotten those before, we would have been in trouble. 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:48.520 And and nobody wanted that, so it was great fun. 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:50.400 But it was I mean, it was incredible how many 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:54.000 phone calls there'd be. Either Gil would would have an 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:56.600 idea or and I'd have to go check it out, 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:59.120 or Russ would have an idea and we'd start talking 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:00.679 them through, and then we really lives. We had back 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.000 to back par threes, or we had part sixty nine, 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:05.320 or we had nineteen holes or we had seventeen holes. 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:08.800 It was insane. It was. It was fun. And then 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:12.480 one day it finally kind of clicked in one respect, 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:16.400 I found a hole that I was excited about. And 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:20.440 then but we still had one little problem. And I 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:24.240 remember the day very vividly, and Gil, Gil, I think, 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:26.920 on a Friday night, was looking at something and figured 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:29.200 something out, said would you go check this out? And 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.120 so I went out and on a Saturday, and it 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:34.720 was it was kind of fun. I had just well, 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.240 it was weird. I did the morning drive that morning 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:41.720 and was defending Ted Bishop who had been in a 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:44.720 little scandal. And I went over there and I took 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:46.760 pictures of where and called Gil and said, I think 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:50.280 it works. It's a little uphill par three and and 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:53.040 we finally had our eighteen holes kind of pieced together, 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:56.560 and so that whole I am very I really like 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:58.760 that's the one hole that in the member feedback is 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:02.200 still there's still on the fence about it's a little 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:05.679 short uphill Part three with a pretty severe green. But 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:10.080 the feedback's been very positive. A couple of part threes 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:13.160 are are are tough for them because the greens are 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:18.520 new and firm, and but other than that, the feedbacksmen sensational. 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:20.560 It's done what we'd hoped. It's gotten the playback over 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:24.120 there and good players love it. And uh, it's really 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:26.760 a beautiful property. And it's a very different property than 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:29.360 the North You're you're right, it's like golf in Central Park, 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:32.880 and so the contrast between the two is just incredible. 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:36.360 Yeah. I always like when clubs, you know, like as 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:38.720 opposed to like Baltis Ral where you have like just 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:42.000 two you know, courses that are going to beat you 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:43.920 up day and day out, where you have a little 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:45.880 bit of a contrast where you have you know, your 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:48.960 US Open Walker Cup course on the North course, and 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:51.160 then you've got something that's a little bit you know, 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:54.600 more playable and and you know, member friendly on the 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:57.320 South course. So you know, you you see, you know, 0:14:57.400 --> 0:14:59.920 the ability to you know, really have two different golfing 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:00.760 experiences in. 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:04.240 One Yeah, and that was something that you know, so 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:07.000 when I hear some of the feedback that this hole 0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:09.200 is too hard and that's too hard, you know that 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:11.520 that we cringe at because we did want this to 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:16.120 remain fun and a totally different vibe that that a 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:19.480 good player could could go out with with with not 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:21.720 as good players and they could still have a fun game. 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:23.880 And for the most part, I think that's been the case. 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:26.200 And when you have a new course in New Greens 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:28.480 that's just one of the things that that you have 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:31.960 to ask for patients on. But it was really really 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:36.760 a fun project to be a part of and to 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:38.000 to to to work in the middle of the city 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.440 like that and to to try to do something that 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:43.760 was different than the North, but also didn't you know 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:45.160 that was the other thing we had to deal with 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:48.320 was do we want do we want to just create 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:52.080 a because a smaller version of the North, because you know, 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:56.000 Captain Thomas had started developing plans for the South and 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.280 redid the first green and it was a pretty zany 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:03.360 green with a bunker cut into it, and you're thinking 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:05.800 well he was gonna go pretty nuts with this golf 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:09.680 course with short holes, and and then he he passed away. 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:13.800 So we we tried to do some things on the 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.680 course that were in the vein of what would George 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:19.600 Thomas do on a shorter version of a course like this? 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:22.000 And what would Billy Bell how would he construct it? 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:25.320 But we also did some things that were that went 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:27.440 against that, and we we've toned down the bunkers a 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:31.880 little bit and things like that to make it make 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:34.880 it different, but not make it. I mean we even 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:37.400 toyed with like it do we do a Rainer style look, 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:39.680 and so they're totally different looking, and we just felt 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:42.920 like that was never gonna never gonna look quite right. 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:45.680 So I feel like we found the right the right blend. 0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:49.760 Yeah. So something I think is interesting about kind of 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:52.040 your career. So you start, you know, you're you're a 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:55.080 golf writer, and you know, you write a lot about architecture, 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.360 and now you've you know, kind of you know, morphed 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:03.480 into a architect you know yourself, you know, And I 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:06.960 think a lot of people that are into architecture always think, hey, 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:08.840 you know, it would be so cool to get to 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:12.040 design your own own course. What have you seen that 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:16.160 is the toughest aspect of architecture that you didn't expect 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:18.439 it now that you've been out in the field, you know, 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:20.200 you know, building golf courses. 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:26.800 Probably the politics of it, the convincing whoever is in 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:32.320 charge of the money and of what you want to 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:35.240 do and what they need to have done and what 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:39.480 they have is in terms of a site or or 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:44.960 an existing course. It's it's it's fairly relentless, and it's 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:49.879 it's uh in terms of the campaigning and the effort 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:54.320 you have to make to convince people that something would 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:57.400 be good. And I mean that was the fun part 0:17:57.440 --> 0:17:59.439 at l A. It was not. Initially it was a 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:02.399 tough set well and uh, you know, a lot of opposition, 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:05.560 and then it was the opposite on the on the 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:08.320 south we we had very little opposition and it was 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:11.600 almost it was almost uh, you know, Gil and I 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:15.879 would look at Uh, I guess nobody, nobody really is 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:17.720 too worried about what we're going to do, so let's 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:22.359 do it. And that was fun as well. But it's uh, 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:24.639 that's a tough part of the job. I think that 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:28.800 part of the job's gotten slightly easier with the change 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:33.760 in the last probably five to seven years of people 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:37.440 going into projects just being more aware of what what's 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:42.560 good good design and what sensible design, what's sustainable? Uh 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:46.040 uh And and I think the biggest shift is the 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:50.520 the finally we've seem to be over for the most part, 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:54.320 not always, but for the most part, the obsession with difficulty, 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:58.320 and people are asking architects more and more they want 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:02.439 they want fun and and and uh that's to me 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:06.440 really really encouraging for the game. And maybe too late, 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:08.920 but you never know, but I think it's I think 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:11.640 it's been a great shift that you see that now 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:14.120 with you hear that with so many projects. 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:17.680 Yeah, you know curious. You know, when you got your 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.960 start and started writing, and you know you're kind of 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:23.679 in the dark ages of architecture, you know, did you 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:27.160 did you just feel like a black sheep at all times? 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.240 No? No, no, because there were other people with the 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:35.040 same mindset. Yeah, I mean I got the black sheep 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:40.280 treatment when I started venturing into writing about distance and uh, 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:43.320 I mean literally to the point where there were there 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:46.760 were certain companies that were encouraging people not to use 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:51.600 me for writing work, and and there were uh, you 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:55.040 know essentially they were they were threatened by that discussion, 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:59.520 and and I understood that that's that's uh, it's a 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:02.439 it's a sensitive subject. But even that subject starting to 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:07.840 change now. Uh finally it took a while, but uh, 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:11.199 but in terms of architecture, no, I think it was 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:17.600 there were enough quality people who were like minded that 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:20.159 that made me think, Okay, yeah, this is worth looking 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:25.800 into and pursuing. And and the people that I I 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:28.800 uh I think are smart and uh I really like 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:31.280 and who love the game are into this too, And 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:35.919 so that that never that part of it never felt 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:39.280 that that that odd. It was more of trying to 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:42.479 convince people, Okay, look at these photos we found, wouldn't 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:45.919 this be better? And I think that that was the 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:48.399 hard part. And I think the part that's changed now 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:54.679 with Photoshop, with Google Earth and all these different visual tricks, 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:59.280 it is a lot easier to convince people of what 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:02.000 some used to look like and how it would look, 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:05.840 how that would be the better look now for a course, Yeah. 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:08.720 I think that's I mean, the biggest thing I see, 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:11.320 you know, the place I play golf here in Chicago 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:14.000 is just like draft is so overgrown and then you 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:16.880 look at the old photos and there's no trees anywhere, 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:19.840 you know, and they you know, they've planted thousands of trees, 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:22.840 and you know, I talk to members and and they're like, 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:25.000 you know, hey, those trees have been here forever. I 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:28.040 point to a picture in the clubhouse. Yeah, there's not there, 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:31.680 And you know, it just it limits the amount of 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:34.679 strategy when you don't have any with obviously, you know, 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:38.399 you see it even on tour. You know, I'd be 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:41.919 interested to hear what your thoughts were on Aaron Hills 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:46.199 and you know, kind of the course and you know 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:47.639 how it played out. You know, I think it's a 0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:49.280 very polarizing topic in. 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:56.679 Golf, polarizing in this you mean the post Aaron Hills 0:21:57.119 --> 0:21:58.400 reaction is polarizing. 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:00.840 Yeah, I think. You know, obviously people just get I 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:03.119 think people just get so hung up on par But 0:22:03.359 --> 0:22:06.159 you know, in my eyes, I looked at at that 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:09.480 course and I thought it delivered a really good championship 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:12.960 and we saw a variety that on the leaderboard that 0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:15.919 we'd never seen before with with different styles of play 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:18.560 in the US Open, and I you know, I look 0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:19.960 at it and I attributed it to the with. 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:25.680 Yeah, I'm with you. On that. You know, I didn't 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:29.439 have I wouldn't say high hopes for that one for 0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:32.679 Aaron Hills, and and and in part you know, I 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:36.920 look at not just the design but also just the 0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:38.800 how is it going to function as a venue, Is 0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:41.680 it going to have energy? And h is it gonna 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:44.920 be somewhat reasonable to get to? And so getting there 0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:49.000 actually worked really well. The energy on site was great 0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:53.359 because the fans there were so passionate and and it 0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:55.800 was a beautiful It was very much like an Open Championship, 0:22:55.880 --> 0:22:57.960 especially Sunday when it cooled off a little and the 0:22:58.000 --> 0:22:59.920 wind was blowing. It was eerie how much it felt 0:22:59.920 --> 0:23:05.680 like an Open in the UK, but on television it was. 0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:08.040 It was interesting that the reaction was, well, where were 0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:11.200 the people, where was the energy? And it really, I 0:23:11.280 --> 0:23:13.560 think was a learning experience for a lot of people 0:23:14.320 --> 0:23:16.560 to then go to Connecticut the next week where you 0:23:16.600 --> 0:23:19.360 had people right on top of the action, and how 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:22.560 that totally change the energy for the person launching at home. 0:23:23.640 --> 0:23:25.679 But then, of course, as you know, so many people 0:23:25.720 --> 0:23:29.120 seized on that winning score and it was part seventy two. 0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:33.840 The greens were absolutely immaculate. The width was sensational and 0:23:33.920 --> 0:23:37.240 I think necessary based on what everybody tells me there 0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:41.280 on what happened on Saturday before the Open, with the 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:45.320 wind that they have days there where if you don't 0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:47.639 have that width there, they're just going to have a 0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:51.399 freak show out there. So it was unfortunate arranged and 0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:55.879 that made the width play even more substantial than some 0:23:55.920 --> 0:24:00.520 people would like. But you know, other than them not 0:24:00.680 --> 0:24:04.439 spotting the overspray and the high rough right off the 0:24:04.520 --> 0:24:08.960 edges and dealing with that sooner, uh the place was 0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:12.479 immaculately presented. The architecture was way better than when I 0:24:12.560 --> 0:24:17.919 first went there, and way more interesting and and uh 0:24:18.040 --> 0:24:21.000 so I view it as a positive open and and 0:24:21.000 --> 0:24:23.600 and then we'll remember it as one and and I 0:24:23.600 --> 0:24:26.160 think I think history will be kind to it as well. 0:24:26.880 --> 0:24:29.040 And I don't think anybody's gonna sit there and go, well, 0:24:29.040 --> 0:24:32.080 that was a that was a disaster. And and you 0:24:32.119 --> 0:24:34.240 know the other thing and is, you know, from a plane, 0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:38.119 people just forget how awful the feeling is when an open, 0:24:38.240 --> 0:24:40.440 is a US Open, or any major or any golf 0:24:40.440 --> 0:24:43.639 tournaments tainted by course set up where you feel like 0:24:44.200 --> 0:24:48.760 it went too far and it costs somebody the championship 0:24:48.840 --> 0:24:51.600 for for reasons that can't really be explained other than 0:24:51.640 --> 0:24:54.320 it went too far. So if you air a little 0:24:54.359 --> 0:24:56.399 bit on the other side, I'm sorry, but that's just 0:24:57.160 --> 0:24:58.040 infinitely better. 0:24:59.040 --> 0:25:02.080 Yeah, yeah, I I completely agree. I think it allowed 0:25:02.160 --> 0:25:05.440 everybody to play their style game. I mean, like, yeah, 0:25:05.480 --> 0:25:08.359 I think, you know, like the short grass around the 0:25:08.440 --> 0:25:13.040 greens even to extent, allowed people that were great are 0:25:13.040 --> 0:25:16.399 great at short you know, at chipping and pitching the ball, 0:25:17.040 --> 0:25:21.040 you know, a place to showcase their skills because you know, 0:25:21.160 --> 0:25:23.879 in a traditional US Open, you know, you get in 0:25:24.040 --> 0:25:26.760 seven inch rough around the greens and no matter how 0:25:26.800 --> 0:25:28.760 great you are, you're probably not going to get up 0:25:28.800 --> 0:25:32.359 and down. But you saw Patrick Reid on on Saturday 0:25:32.440 --> 0:25:35.000 put on a clinic and the whole day he was 0:25:35.040 --> 0:25:35.679 short sighted. 0:25:37.080 --> 0:25:41.520 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And they manage those areas very carefully. 0:25:42.040 --> 0:25:45.320 And I don't know how much that came through two 0:25:45.359 --> 0:25:48.560 people watching from Afar, but they had different mowing heights. 0:25:48.560 --> 0:25:50.720 For some they were nervous. They were nervous about a 0:25:50.760 --> 0:25:53.080 lot of things going into this Open, and rightfully so, 0:25:53.119 --> 0:25:55.080 they did not want to have a bad week. They 0:25:55.119 --> 0:25:56.959 didn't want to have a week with balls rolling up 0:25:57.000 --> 0:25:59.520 and down greens and so I think they did the 0:25:59.600 --> 0:26:02.000 right thing airing the way they did and got a 0:26:02.119 --> 0:26:04.960 very very deserving champion. 0:26:05.560 --> 0:26:08.879 So do you think Aaron Hills you voting yes for 0:26:09.000 --> 0:26:10.520 another open? 0:26:14.000 --> 0:26:16.960 I think it would. I think it will probably get one, 0:26:17.000 --> 0:26:19.080 but I think it'll be a long time, partially because 0:26:19.080 --> 0:26:24.840 they're so already locked in to so many venues. But yeah, 0:26:24.880 --> 0:26:26.600 I think it will get another one. I don't know 0:26:26.640 --> 0:26:30.119 if it would be my top choice, to be honest, 0:26:30.119 --> 0:26:32.119 there's just so many places that I mean when I 0:26:32.200 --> 0:26:34.680 look when you look at where they're going the next 0:26:35.800 --> 0:26:38.679 eight venues and likely actually the next ten if they 0:26:39.200 --> 0:26:42.480 go to some of the places we suspect, And there's 0:26:42.520 --> 0:26:48.280 just something about the places with history and architecture and 0:26:49.080 --> 0:26:52.639 stories that you you kind of love to hear and 0:26:52.640 --> 0:26:55.280 and great ways to remind people of the past and 0:26:55.800 --> 0:26:58.600 other tournaments that's just different than going to the new venues. 0:26:58.640 --> 0:27:00.919 And I think that's my only issue going to Chambers 0:27:00.960 --> 0:27:03.520 and Aaron Hills the way they did that, they only 0:27:03.520 --> 0:27:06.679 had one amateur and in Aaron Hills case of public 0:27:06.720 --> 0:27:09.240 links and amateur public links, and I think you just 0:27:09.280 --> 0:27:11.760 have to go places where you have to have more 0:27:11.800 --> 0:27:16.720 events on them before you go there. In fact, I 0:27:16.760 --> 0:27:18.560 you know LA Country Club, Well, somebody will say, well, 0:27:18.600 --> 0:27:20.760 wait a second, they're going to get US Open and 0:27:20.760 --> 0:27:22.240 all they're going to have is a locker cup. And 0:27:22.520 --> 0:27:26.680 I think it's after seeing what I saw at Aaron Hills, 0:27:26.720 --> 0:27:31.639 I would like to see LA Country Club host a 0:27:31.680 --> 0:27:34.440 couple of one or two things like a US Open 0:27:34.600 --> 0:27:37.960 sectional qualifying, just get a few more things in there 0:27:38.000 --> 0:27:40.800 to just see how good players play on a course, 0:27:40.800 --> 0:27:43.879 because there's just it's very difficult, as you know, to 0:27:45.200 --> 0:27:47.199 envision what a course is going to play like with 0:27:47.400 --> 0:27:50.120 really good players on it until you get it kind 0:27:50.119 --> 0:27:54.400 of ramped up and an in tournament condition and get 0:27:54.400 --> 0:27:58.159 those players out there. And I think that that was 0:27:58.200 --> 0:28:01.760 something that hurt both Chambers and and Aaron Hills, especially 0:28:01.800 --> 0:28:06.040 because they're they're they're more complicated golf courses and scale 0:28:06.160 --> 0:28:10.119 and turf and location and all that then and people 0:28:10.359 --> 0:28:13.760 of course, like like La and people, you. 0:28:13.640 --> 0:28:16.560 Know, like getting people around the course. You know, the 0:28:16.680 --> 0:28:19.959 LCC had packed twelves a couple of years ago, right, 0:28:20.000 --> 0:28:23.800 and I did, as I remember. The feedback was really 0:28:23.840 --> 0:28:25.399 positive for that also. 0:28:25.720 --> 0:28:27.879 Oh it was amazing. It was so fun, you know, 0:28:27.960 --> 0:28:32.800 the first day, uh, scoring was incredible, and because they 0:28:32.840 --> 0:28:34.399 had it set up a little easier and then it 0:28:34.800 --> 0:28:37.399 just got tougher and tougher in a good way. And 0:28:37.880 --> 0:28:40.120 it was it was so much fun to watch and 0:28:40.240 --> 0:28:45.040 it was so fascinating me. My favorite memory of that 0:28:45.200 --> 0:28:49.040 was on the in the final round, Casey Martin was 0:28:49.040 --> 0:28:52.800 was going out on the fifteenth green when his player 0:28:52.840 --> 0:28:55.240 would get up on the tee and directing them where 0:28:55.280 --> 0:28:58.040 to hit their shot the landed so that it would 0:28:58.080 --> 0:29:00.280 then spin down properly to the whole because the hole 0:29:00.360 --> 0:29:03.040 was playing ninety five yards the short part three the 0:29:03.080 --> 0:29:06.800 pin was up. They were playing the basically the red 0:29:06.840 --> 0:29:10.000 tea box and although the reds are now gone, but 0:29:10.040 --> 0:29:13.000 it's another color now. I think it's green. But then 0:29:13.040 --> 0:29:15.840 it was just fun to watch that the golf course 0:29:15.920 --> 0:29:20.160 get firm to the point where where a coach was 0:29:20.160 --> 0:29:22.280 was watching what other guys were doing, was able to 0:29:22.360 --> 0:29:26.120 tell the players that. And it was intense, I mean 0:29:26.160 --> 0:29:28.320 it was really by the last the last round, it 0:29:28.360 --> 0:29:32.320 was an intense test of golf and and and just 0:29:32.400 --> 0:29:33.320 great fun to watch. 0:29:33.880 --> 0:29:38.120 Yeah, it's it's interesting with college golf, how how involved 0:29:38.160 --> 0:29:40.600 the coaches are with like you know, like that I 0:29:40.640 --> 0:29:43.520 went to the NTAs this year and and you know, 0:29:43.600 --> 0:29:46.320 for the it was kind of my first in person exposure. 0:29:46.320 --> 0:29:49.360 But I mean, like they are like almost more involved 0:29:49.400 --> 0:29:52.440 than a caddy would be, and and you know, instructing 0:29:52.480 --> 0:29:55.040 these kids where to hit their shots, reading putts. I 0:29:55.080 --> 0:29:59.520 mean it, it's interesting how like they're able to you 0:29:59.560 --> 0:30:01.760 know it, they're almost better than at caddy because they 0:30:01.760 --> 0:30:03.920 could go watch you know, another team play a hole 0:30:04.400 --> 0:30:05.880 five holes before you get there. 0:30:08.040 --> 0:30:10.160 Yeah, And that was that was the interesting thing for 0:30:10.240 --> 0:30:13.720 me at the PAC twelve because there are coaches who 0:30:13.760 --> 0:30:16.160 don't do that. They have a very simple style and 0:30:16.200 --> 0:30:19.400 they they sit back. And then I noticed it though 0:30:19.400 --> 0:30:22.840 in the NCAA's I'm a telecast more than ever, how 0:30:22.840 --> 0:30:27.560 many more coaches are getting out there and and essentially caddying. 0:30:27.800 --> 0:30:31.600 And I think for the most part, that's a good 0:30:31.600 --> 0:30:33.640 thing for a player, but I there were a few 0:30:33.680 --> 0:30:37.520 times where you were like, coach, get off the green, Okay, 0:30:37.800 --> 0:30:39.600 you don't need to tend the flag, and you don't 0:30:39.600 --> 0:30:41.800 need to shake your guy's hand before he shakes his 0:30:41.840 --> 0:30:43.800 opponent's hand at the end of the match. That kind 0:30:43.800 --> 0:30:46.400 of thing that was that was bothersome to me. So 0:30:47.760 --> 0:30:50.200 and I noticed that it was interesting. Some some people 0:30:51.320 --> 0:30:53.600 at the Golf Channel also noticed it, and I think 0:30:53.640 --> 0:30:58.320 they must have gotten some feedback on it because there 0:30:58.360 --> 0:31:00.360 is a there is a fine line there but between 0:31:00.600 --> 0:31:03.240 being a coach and being upfront and also just letting 0:31:03.280 --> 0:31:04.840 your players play and play their match. 0:31:05.440 --> 0:31:08.960 Yeah, it's it's interesting. It's uh, you know, eventually, I 0:31:09.440 --> 0:31:11.840 don't know. I the way I play a game. I 0:31:12.160 --> 0:31:15.480 think I just I just have to go be myself, 0:31:15.600 --> 0:31:18.360 you know, like if I have somebody telling me exactly 0:31:18.400 --> 0:31:19.920 what to do, I'll probably just screw up. 0:31:21.280 --> 0:31:23.120 But no, there are a lot of people like that. 0:31:23.360 --> 0:31:24.960 That's that's why they're drawn to golf. 0:31:25.440 --> 0:31:31.520 So what what course would you like to see host 0:31:31.800 --> 0:31:36.520 major championships, whether it's the PGA or the the US 0:31:36.520 --> 0:31:40.880 Open that you don't that currently isn't hosting major championship golf? 0:31:42.520 --> 0:31:46.680 Hmm, oh boy, that's uh, that's an interesting one. I mean, 0:31:46.760 --> 0:31:49.760 it's tough to say because of the way the ball goes. 0:31:49.800 --> 0:31:51.840 There's there are a lot of places that would be 0:31:52.560 --> 0:31:55.240 great fun to see these guys play, but they just can't. 0:31:55.360 --> 0:31:58.160 It's just it would just be dumb to watch them 0:31:58.560 --> 0:32:02.080 try and play it and and and be tested in 0:32:02.080 --> 0:32:04.800 a way that was interesting. You just would you know, 0:32:04.880 --> 0:32:09.160 a Cypress point or something like that our Fisher's Island 0:32:09.240 --> 0:32:12.640 would be fascinating. But we just won't get that, I 0:32:12.640 --> 0:32:16.880 don't think until they do something about the distance and 0:32:16.880 --> 0:32:19.240 and that. You know, so those places still might not 0:32:20.160 --> 0:32:22.320 want them. But I guess if I had to vote, 0:32:23.200 --> 0:32:25.720 the one that would be the most interesting to me 0:32:25.840 --> 0:32:28.080 to watch the great players play if they were playing 0:32:28.120 --> 0:32:30.080 a ball that was suited for the course would be 0:32:30.120 --> 0:32:33.920 the National Golf Links of America. Yeah, I think that 0:32:33.960 --> 0:32:35.160 would be That would be the one. 0:32:35.640 --> 0:32:39.080 Mm hmm. It's uh, that's that's one that I gotta 0:32:39.160 --> 0:32:43.360 go see here eventually. In terms of you know, I 0:32:43.400 --> 0:32:46.360 know you're you're you're pretty passionate about the ball and 0:32:46.680 --> 0:32:50.320 rolling back the ball, and I think, I mean, I 0:32:50.360 --> 0:32:53.200 don't know how I hit the ball further every year, 0:32:54.680 --> 0:32:57.040 you know, if it's not the ball when I'm you know, 0:32:57.200 --> 0:33:00.200 in not as good of shape and play a lifeless 0:33:00.240 --> 0:33:03.400 and less but seemingly I add five yards of distance 0:33:03.440 --> 0:33:05.520 every year, but you know, the ball is not going 0:33:05.520 --> 0:33:08.200 any further. What would you like to see? You know, like, 0:33:08.320 --> 0:33:10.240 what do you think is the solution? Is it a 0:33:10.240 --> 0:33:13.240 pro ball and an amateur ball or you know, and 0:33:13.280 --> 0:33:14.200 how does that work. 0:33:16.200 --> 0:33:19.200 I really love I've always loved the idea of a 0:33:19.240 --> 0:33:22.800 classic course ball and branding it that way and calling 0:33:22.840 --> 0:33:25.840 it that and I think it's very similar to what 0:33:26.320 --> 0:33:30.600 Mike Davis floated, this variable distance ball. What he floated, 0:33:30.680 --> 0:33:34.920 I think was a little more intricate in terms of 0:33:35.320 --> 0:33:39.680 potential ways the ball could go. And it may just 0:33:39.720 --> 0:33:42.120 be a political reason they put that out there that 0:33:42.160 --> 0:33:44.160 you would you could have a ball that actually goes 0:33:44.280 --> 0:33:49.719 longer for say women to play Aaron Hills or whatever 0:33:49.760 --> 0:33:54.760 it is. It's bring certain courses within reason for lesser 0:33:55.360 --> 0:33:59.400 talented golfers. But I think that the main focus would 0:33:59.400 --> 0:34:05.760 be something that allows you to play, that allows an 0:34:05.800 --> 0:34:08.799 elite offer to go to Pine Valley and have Pine 0:34:08.880 --> 0:34:13.920 Valley play like it did twenty years ago. And you know, 0:34:14.080 --> 0:34:17.120 that's why I've always kind of liked the classic course concept, 0:34:17.120 --> 0:34:20.359 because saft spikes really started at Riviera and a few 0:34:20.400 --> 0:34:24.920 other great old courses and spread because they had that 0:34:25.040 --> 0:34:29.799 sort of endorsement of the classic course element and that 0:34:29.880 --> 0:34:33.240 it was for the good of the maintenance of those courses. 0:34:33.280 --> 0:34:36.439 And now look where we are where spikeless is all 0:34:36.440 --> 0:34:40.200 over the game, and I think that having some of 0:34:40.200 --> 0:34:44.560 those courses a Marion, a Cypress Point, a pine Valley 0:34:44.920 --> 0:34:48.320 be able to be played and also turn in a 0:34:48.360 --> 0:34:52.400 score for handicapping purposes with a ball that is accounted 0:34:52.400 --> 0:34:58.600 for would be the way started and see where it goes. 0:34:58.640 --> 0:35:01.480 But I think the architecture element is more interesting, and 0:35:01.520 --> 0:35:05.120 then you know the pros it has to happen. There's 0:35:05.160 --> 0:35:06.480 just no way. I don't know how they're going to 0:35:06.520 --> 0:35:09.319 play some of these venues coming up on the US 0:35:09.400 --> 0:35:12.520 Open circuit after what we saw at Aaron Hills without 0:35:13.239 --> 0:35:15.839 a ball suited those weeks, and we'll have to listen 0:35:15.840 --> 0:35:18.400 to all the whining about, oh, it's so hard to 0:35:18.480 --> 0:35:21.480 adjust and how dare you do that? And it's it's hogwash, 0:35:21.520 --> 0:35:24.280 of course, because they just went down to the Mexico 0:35:24.360 --> 0:35:27.439 city where there's altitude and they all without their track 0:35:27.520 --> 0:35:30.080 man and they make some adjustments, and I mean, you 0:35:30.120 --> 0:35:32.560 talk about what a non story that ended up being, 0:35:33.320 --> 0:35:36.280 because it's just so it's never been easier to adjust 0:35:36.320 --> 0:35:42.640 your equipment and and you're thinking on distance with track 0:35:42.719 --> 0:35:46.239 man and with the knowledge you know, the caddies are 0:35:46.280 --> 0:35:49.680 so good now and they know so much and so 0:35:49.680 --> 0:35:53.440 so that element of say we had ali a Master's 0:35:53.480 --> 0:35:57.080 ball at Augusta, and every company made it, and they 0:35:57.080 --> 0:36:01.919 made their they made the specs and they tested them. Yeah, 0:36:01.960 --> 0:36:03.520 it's a little bit of a pain. And yeah, there's 0:36:03.560 --> 0:36:06.520 going to be a situation where somebody's gonna wonder if 0:36:06.520 --> 0:36:10.200 somebody's playing a juiced ball. But I don't think that's 0:36:10.200 --> 0:36:13.160 going to happen too much. And I think it has 0:36:13.239 --> 0:36:15.239 to happen. I think it will happen, I really do. 0:36:15.360 --> 0:36:18.920 I think that the climate has changed and people are 0:36:19.040 --> 0:36:23.480 kind of realizing that it's not growing the game as 0:36:23.520 --> 0:36:24.479 we've been told it would. 0:36:25.200 --> 0:36:29.719 Yeah, I mean I think I played Chicago golf last 0:36:29.719 --> 0:36:33.360 week and something I noticed is just like, you know, 0:36:33.440 --> 0:36:37.160 like the principal's nose bunker on double plateaus is completely 0:36:37.280 --> 0:36:40.880 useless now. I mean, where it used to be something 0:36:40.920 --> 0:36:42.920 that people would have to work. Like, you hit a 0:36:42.920 --> 0:36:45.000 bad drive and all of a sudden you have this 0:36:45.040 --> 0:36:47.279 bunker to contend with. Now it's almost more of a 0:36:47.320 --> 0:36:50.080 bunker off the tee than it was than it is 0:36:50.120 --> 0:36:53.439 for a second shot. And you see this and it's like, wow, 0:36:53.480 --> 0:36:56.480 this is this great golf course where you have this 0:36:57.200 --> 0:37:01.560 beautiful architecture with like Barritz holes, and it's so rare 0:37:01.640 --> 0:37:05.040 to play a radan actually the way a radan should 0:37:05.080 --> 0:37:07.319 be played, because the ball goes so high and you're 0:37:07.360 --> 0:37:11.000 hitting such short shots into this two hundred yard hole, 0:37:11.440 --> 0:37:14.080 you know, and the same with a Burrits it's almost 0:37:14.080 --> 0:37:18.640 impossible to run the ball up to it well. 0:37:18.640 --> 0:37:21.200 And that's the biggest change since I've been bitching and 0:37:21.239 --> 0:37:24.600 moaning about distance that when I started, a good players 0:37:24.600 --> 0:37:26.480 would always go, well, just put a tea back, just 0:37:26.520 --> 0:37:31.160 do this, just grow the rough, narrow it, and you know, 0:37:31.239 --> 0:37:34.000 I'd get pretty frustrated with that, and then it's just 0:37:34.120 --> 0:37:37.480 gradually changed where people no longer and this is the 0:37:37.520 --> 0:37:40.839 exciting thing to me, is that you no longer have 0:37:40.920 --> 0:37:45.520 to convince somebody that that those things are bad ideas. 0:37:45.600 --> 0:37:48.120 It's people have come to realize, wait a second, this 0:37:48.239 --> 0:37:52.839 we have this architectural treasure. Why would you why would 0:37:52.880 --> 0:37:57.239 you do these things to it? Just because because the 0:37:57.280 --> 0:38:00.920 ball and the equipment is so good now, and so 0:38:01.000 --> 0:38:04.520 I think that that the the climate is out there 0:38:04.520 --> 0:38:10.640 that good players now no longer feel like it's the 0:38:10.760 --> 0:38:17.120 job of the course to to to really adjust to 0:38:17.920 --> 0:38:21.480 the equipment and so that's a huge, huge change and 0:38:21.680 --> 0:38:24.080 you hear it in players. I hear it in people 0:38:24.120 --> 0:38:26.719 who go to Pine Valley like, oh, well that wasn't 0:38:26.800 --> 0:38:29.399 very hard. You know, you want to say, well, one, 0:38:29.920 --> 0:38:32.960 the sand used to be all footprints and death if 0:38:33.000 --> 0:38:37.200 you hit it in there. And two yeah, but you 0:38:37.239 --> 0:38:39.560 know it's short. You don't even have any drivers there 0:38:39.560 --> 0:38:42.359 anymore unless you play a few of those silly new 0:38:42.400 --> 0:38:45.000 bacties and those are kind of kind of absurd. But 0:38:45.920 --> 0:38:48.239 so that to me is an exciting change that good 0:38:48.239 --> 0:38:50.719 players are now kind of on board like, oh yeah, 0:38:50.719 --> 0:38:53.279 I'm not really getting tested the way I want to 0:38:53.320 --> 0:38:55.800 be tested, and it's not as fun. 0:38:56.800 --> 0:38:59.319 So outside the ball, like, what do you think has 0:38:59.360 --> 0:39:03.640 been kind of like the biggest tech technological advance that's 0:39:03.719 --> 0:39:05.799 kind of diminished skill in the game. 0:39:07.640 --> 0:39:10.480 Oh the size of the driver head for sure. And 0:39:10.480 --> 0:39:14.320 and and that's one that that you know, Adam Scott 0:39:14.400 --> 0:39:17.920 feels very strongly about just reducing the size of the 0:39:17.960 --> 0:39:20.320 head a little bit and you'd see a big change 0:39:20.320 --> 0:39:24.440 in distance and also a reward for for the truly 0:39:24.480 --> 0:39:26.320 great drivers of the ball. And I would love to 0:39:26.360 --> 0:39:28.680 see that. I think I would love to see an 0:39:28.680 --> 0:39:33.880 event that that that does that just just just limits 0:39:33.920 --> 0:39:35.920 the size of the head and let's look at the 0:39:36.000 --> 0:39:38.040 numbers and let's see how it plays, and let's see 0:39:38.040 --> 0:39:42.160 if the the if if it remains in line with 0:39:42.200 --> 0:39:45.640 who the best drivers are driving the best that week. 0:39:45.719 --> 0:39:49.920 I think it would be fascinating. And you know, things 0:39:49.960 --> 0:39:51.640 like that, we don't We just don't do. You know 0:39:51.719 --> 0:39:55.520 NASCAR has restrictor plates on cars for certain tracks. Why 0:39:55.680 --> 0:39:58.440 why don't we do that in golf where where we 0:39:58.440 --> 0:40:00.880 we have our version of restrict plates so that the 0:40:02.840 --> 0:40:07.600 architecture can shine and the course doesn't have to make 0:40:07.640 --> 0:40:08.400 silly changes. 0:40:09.320 --> 0:40:12.600 Yeah, I love that idea, I think. I mean, you 0:40:12.640 --> 0:40:15.720 see that the change in the way people even swing, 0:40:15.920 --> 0:40:19.480 and you know, this new era of the young twenty 0:40:19.520 --> 0:40:22.640 somethings have grown up with these massive driver heads, and 0:40:22.680 --> 0:40:25.560 their swings reflect it. I mean they're swinging up on 0:40:25.600 --> 0:40:28.120 the ball and they really swing pretty much as hard 0:40:28.120 --> 0:40:31.319 as they can, knowing that, hey, my miss isn't really 0:40:31.360 --> 0:40:34.280 that big of a deal. You know. I remember playing 0:40:34.400 --> 0:40:38.480 like small one hundred and ninety cc heads that if 0:40:38.560 --> 0:40:41.680 you mishit it, I mean it was going nowhere and 0:40:42.120 --> 0:40:43.439 really far right or left. 0:40:43.719 --> 0:40:46.879 Well, oh yeah, Yeah, it was cool, and I don't 0:40:46.920 --> 0:40:50.359 want to go back to those days for all of us. 0:40:50.640 --> 0:40:53.040 And I don't even think that we're talking about a 0:40:53.320 --> 0:40:56.759 reduction in the driver head size that would be even 0:40:56.800 --> 0:40:59.360 close to that. But just just even a slight reduction, 0:40:59.440 --> 0:41:01.560 which is what I Adam Scott's mentioned, would would make 0:41:01.600 --> 0:41:06.319 a huge difference three thirty or somewhere in there and that, 0:41:06.440 --> 0:41:09.640 but we won't know until we try it, so we 0:41:09.760 --> 0:41:11.200 need that to happen first. 0:41:12.160 --> 0:41:15.440 So curious, you know, say, say I gave you just 0:41:15.680 --> 0:41:19.359 like this great piece of land, unlimited budget, and you 0:41:19.400 --> 0:41:24.200 could you could resurrect any architect dead or living, you know, 0:41:24.280 --> 0:41:26.800 and and you wanted to, you know, do a whole 0:41:27.360 --> 0:41:30.160 you know. Of course, who who would you have design 0:41:30.200 --> 0:41:30.720 your course? 0:41:33.960 --> 0:41:36.920 Probably well, obviously I have a strong bias towards George 0:41:36.960 --> 0:41:39.600 Thomas and Billy Bell, so it would it would it 0:41:39.640 --> 0:41:43.319 would be them, or it would be uh McKenzie with 0:41:44.080 --> 0:41:47.040 Robert Hunter. Probably. I just I feel like in terms 0:41:47.080 --> 0:41:53.279 of the whole package of design and artistry and construction, 0:41:53.600 --> 0:41:59.640 function and and just beauty, and that those were the 0:41:59.680 --> 0:42:03.600 teams that that kind of took it to another level. 0:42:04.200 --> 0:42:10.360 And uh I uh yes, I'm I think Thomas was 0:42:10.360 --> 0:42:14.400 was the master more than anybody at at creating something 0:42:14.400 --> 0:42:16.399 that looked great the first time you saw it, but 0:42:16.440 --> 0:42:20.880 then had had enough intricacies within that wouldn't make you 0:42:20.920 --> 0:42:22.759 want to play it over and over again. And his 0:42:22.920 --> 0:42:27.799 view was that that era of golf architecture, what they 0:42:27.840 --> 0:42:30.719 did was just the beginning, and then we'd have more 0:42:30.760 --> 0:42:34.399 courses with the intricacies of the old course, the day 0:42:34.440 --> 0:42:37.720 to day variety and and that and and Mackenzie wrote 0:42:37.719 --> 0:42:42.160 that too, and that didn't happen. Obviously, we went we 0:42:42.200 --> 0:42:48.080 went backwards instead of courses that were actually more uh 0:42:48.400 --> 0:42:51.759 complicated and in their design in a way that was 0:42:53.080 --> 0:42:56.760 fascinating and and and in line with what drew people 0:42:56.800 --> 0:42:59.279 to the old course to begin with, which I think 0:42:59.360 --> 0:43:02.040 is fascinating thing. They viewed it that way. 0:43:03.320 --> 0:43:05.400 It's uh yeah, it's. 0:43:05.040 --> 0:43:07.680 Also I mean, it makes sense you would think they 0:43:07.680 --> 0:43:10.399 were they because remember their view was, well, we were 0:43:10.440 --> 0:43:12.399 just trying to get people away from a certain kind 0:43:12.480 --> 0:43:17.000 of bad penal design and unattractive looking courses and courses 0:43:17.040 --> 0:43:19.959 that didn't drain and and look good. And so they 0:43:21.120 --> 0:43:23.120 logic would tell you, okay, we've got it back to 0:43:23.160 --> 0:43:25.600 this point. But now the next generation's going to go 0:43:25.680 --> 0:43:28.239 this way. Well, it turned out that it went the opposite. 0:43:29.000 --> 0:43:36.040 It's interesting too, because, like the the architecture behind really 0:43:36.200 --> 0:43:40.040 great strategic holes is really kind of simple, and it 0:43:40.200 --> 0:43:43.879 just seems like what happened was it got overdone and 0:43:44.120 --> 0:43:47.960 the subtlety is what makes really intricate and great design 0:43:48.080 --> 0:43:52.120 is subtle little things, not sixty five bunkers down the 0:43:52.160 --> 0:43:53.239 left side of a fair way. 0:43:55.360 --> 0:44:00.560 Well, what's funny too is that with better construction and 0:44:02.160 --> 0:44:06.960 machinery and more knowledge and more technology to do things, 0:44:07.520 --> 0:44:11.800 we actually went backwards in terms of the the attention 0:44:11.920 --> 0:44:15.480 to detail and creating those little intricacies that that would 0:44:15.480 --> 0:44:19.959 make it better and long term a golf course would 0:44:19.960 --> 0:44:23.520 have more permanence. And you know, I think their view 0:44:23.600 --> 0:44:26.680 was that the more you got that kind of technology 0:44:26.760 --> 0:44:31.480 to build a course faster, it would allow you to 0:44:31.520 --> 0:44:36.880 spend more time working out the details and the little 0:44:36.880 --> 0:44:39.160 stuff that we love. But it's gone the opposite way. 0:44:39.200 --> 0:44:41.920 It's just people build it faster and crank it out 0:44:41.960 --> 0:44:44.279 and move on to the next thing. Or they did, 0:44:45.080 --> 0:44:48.879 And obviously we're shifting backwards now in that and Core 0:44:48.880 --> 0:44:51.399 and Crenshaw are really the ones who I mean. Pete 0:44:51.480 --> 0:44:55.680 Die kind of kind of started it with with opening 0:44:55.680 --> 0:44:58.080 our eyes to links golf, but then Coren Crenshaw kind 0:44:58.120 --> 0:45:00.360 of taken it to the next level on the on 0:45:00.400 --> 0:45:04.919 the construction and subtlety side and getting that that great 0:45:04.960 --> 0:45:08.360 mix of something that looks visually enticing but then also 0:45:08.480 --> 0:45:11.359 has a real charm when you when you play it. 0:45:11.840 --> 0:45:16.000 Mm hmmm. It's you know, so, I know you've written 0:45:16.480 --> 0:45:20.399 You've written a great book on Cyprus, and something I've 0:45:20.440 --> 0:45:25.200 been curious to ask you is, you know, obviously Rayner 0:45:25.239 --> 0:45:28.680 did the routing there and you know, passed away, so 0:45:29.000 --> 0:45:31.400 you know, then Mackenzie took over. What do you what 0:45:31.440 --> 0:45:33.600 do you think the course and how do you think 0:45:33.640 --> 0:45:36.879 it would be compared to the course that's there now 0:45:37.239 --> 0:45:39.320 it had Rainer done that job. 0:45:41.000 --> 0:45:45.000 I yeah, I always struggle with the idea of his 0:45:45.000 --> 0:45:48.480 his aesthetic working on that land. 0:45:48.960 --> 0:45:49.240 Uh. 0:45:49.320 --> 0:45:52.560 It just really just is hard to picture. As much 0:45:52.640 --> 0:45:56.480 as I love his golf courses, I just don't know 0:45:56.520 --> 0:45:59.279 if that that's what would have worked there compared to 0:45:59.320 --> 0:46:03.320 what was built with the sort of fringy bunkers that 0:46:03.719 --> 0:46:09.319 mimicked the shapes of the cypress trees, and you know, 0:46:10.280 --> 0:46:13.480 the routing changed quite a bit after he passed away. 0:46:13.520 --> 0:46:17.839 It changed, it changed from Mackenzie's first routing, and that's 0:46:17.840 --> 0:46:23.279 all stuff that they were bickering with Samuel Morse about 0:46:23.320 --> 0:46:27.000 the fourteenth coal they wanted along the cliffs, and they 0:46:27.000 --> 0:46:29.759 had the seventeen mile drive that ended up going there, 0:46:29.800 --> 0:46:33.120 and that was kind of a late and the game change, 0:46:33.160 --> 0:46:37.360 and there were other changes. So that's kind of my sense. 0:46:37.400 --> 0:46:40.759 I'm glad that. I'm not glad that Seth Rayner died, 0:46:41.920 --> 0:46:44.919 but he died, but for the sake of Cypress Point, 0:46:44.960 --> 0:46:48.680 I think for that site, it was the what they 0:46:48.760 --> 0:46:52.279 ended up with was was the right style of architecture 0:46:52.320 --> 0:46:53.920 for that kind of ground. 0:46:54.480 --> 0:46:57.839 Yeah, I mean, I think one of my favorite, you know, 0:46:58.200 --> 0:47:01.200 pictures in all of golf is like the was it 0:47:01.280 --> 0:47:04.520 the fourteenth hole that goes down into the right and 0:47:04.560 --> 0:47:06.600 you see, you know, you see the water, but then 0:47:06.680 --> 0:47:09.960 the bunkers how they just kind of creep up into 0:47:10.000 --> 0:47:13.400 the dunes. I mean, it's adn't natural. Look, that's almost 0:47:13.480 --> 0:47:20.080 unparalleled on any other course in America at least, so 0:47:20.360 --> 0:47:23.480 you know, in terms of you know, so say say 0:47:23.520 --> 0:47:26.520 you can have any any course in America to restore 0:47:26.840 --> 0:47:28.279 you know, it could be a public, it could be 0:47:28.320 --> 0:47:31.720 a private. You know, like what course you know sticks 0:47:31.760 --> 0:47:34.000 out in your head is one that you would love 0:47:34.080 --> 0:47:37.479 to do a restoration or you know, slash renovation of. 0:47:40.080 --> 0:47:43.279 Well on the public side, obviously, I'm I'm hopeful that 0:47:43.520 --> 0:47:50.000 something happens at Sharp Park. I'm I'm hopeful that, you know, 0:47:50.160 --> 0:47:53.520 someday that something like Cobbs Creek will happen. That's that's 0:47:53.560 --> 0:47:59.120 another amazing site potentially, It's it's just just an incredible 0:47:59.600 --> 0:48:03.279 opportun tunity. But I think if I I mean, if 0:48:03.280 --> 0:48:05.560 there was one golf course I would love to see 0:48:05.600 --> 0:48:08.120 restored and when and would love to try to figure 0:48:08.120 --> 0:48:10.400 out how to do it, would it would be Pebble 0:48:10.400 --> 0:48:13.520 Beach and getting it back to the nineteen twenty nine 0:48:14.719 --> 0:48:20.200 Chandler Egan post Chandler Egan Redo look, and that's the 0:48:20.200 --> 0:48:23.040 one that the more people who see the photos of 0:48:23.080 --> 0:48:25.840 that and ask questions, the more I think it just 0:48:25.880 --> 0:48:30.080 gets so intriguing to realize what it wants, what it had, 0:48:30.560 --> 0:48:34.200 what it became when Egan redid it, and how it 0:48:34.760 --> 0:48:38.720 changed from that. I think it would just blow people away. 0:48:38.880 --> 0:48:40.160 It would. It would be incredible. 0:48:40.840 --> 0:48:43.480 So, you know, I think, you know, obviously one of 0:48:43.520 --> 0:48:47.080 the issues there is kind of the commercialization of Pebble 0:48:47.120 --> 0:48:50.880 Beach and you know, yeah, yeah, but you know, I 0:48:50.880 --> 0:48:54.439 think with what Mike Kaiser and Core and Crenshaw are 0:48:54.480 --> 0:48:58.840 doing is they're promoting a rougher look is a good look, 0:48:59.360 --> 0:49:02.600 So you know, I think, you know, I would say, 0:49:02.680 --> 0:49:05.839 and personally, I think, you know, five ten years it 0:49:05.920 --> 0:49:09.600 might not be that crazy to you know, to foresee 0:49:09.640 --> 0:49:12.520 that being a viable option, would you agree. 0:49:13.239 --> 0:49:16.319 I agree, Yeah, I think that that the trend is 0:49:16.360 --> 0:49:22.160 such that they will. I think, you know, rankings for 0:49:23.280 --> 0:49:28.719 don't have a lot of positive uses these days, but 0:49:28.719 --> 0:49:31.560 but one thing that they are useful for is is 0:49:31.840 --> 0:49:38.080 highlighting a course kind of getting left behind in a 0:49:38.120 --> 0:49:42.240 way in the and the restoration world that we're seeing 0:49:42.280 --> 0:49:46.360 now that as you said earlier, that there aren't I 0:49:46.640 --> 0:49:48.880 can't name any of these where people did a pure 0:49:48.920 --> 0:49:53.759 restoration where people were really unhappy. In fact, they can't 0:49:53.800 --> 0:49:54.399 name one at all. 0:49:54.560 --> 0:50:00.359 Yeah, I'm sure there's something that you know, I've heard, 0:50:00.440 --> 0:50:03.359 like somebody some people at Colonial don't like what Teeth 0:50:03.400 --> 0:50:06.120 Foster did, although they liked it initially, So I you know, 0:50:06.239 --> 0:50:08.600 I don't know that one looks like he. 0:50:08.600 --> 0:50:10.960 Did a very nice job to me, but maybe more 0:50:11.080 --> 0:50:16.600 people parkening back to wanting the Cogan era look to it. 0:50:16.640 --> 0:50:19.200 And there were some things changing, floods, whatever. But I 0:50:19.239 --> 0:50:22.960 mean that that's really I think, getting desperate trying to 0:50:22.960 --> 0:50:26.200 find an example. So I think that when you look 0:50:26.239 --> 0:50:29.759 at that and the rankings and panelists rewarding places that 0:50:29.840 --> 0:50:33.040 do this and rewarding them not because just because they 0:50:33.080 --> 0:50:35.120 did it, because they go there and they play and 0:50:35.160 --> 0:50:37.879 they they go, wow, this is this is so much fun, 0:50:37.960 --> 0:50:41.600 especially if they played it before and and that's something 0:50:41.600 --> 0:50:44.480 that yeah, where Pebble Beach could could succumb. It's just 0:50:44.560 --> 0:50:47.279 as you know that it's such a to close that 0:50:47.400 --> 0:50:50.840 course down and do that, and the economic impact on 0:50:51.080 --> 0:50:55.200 the course, the lodge and the seventeen mile drive area 0:50:55.239 --> 0:51:00.000 would be pretty incredible. It's a it's a I think 0:51:00.160 --> 0:51:02.560 we were bored one day at the US opened last 0:51:02.560 --> 0:51:04.720 time it was there, and did the masks. A few people. 0:51:04.760 --> 0:51:07.960 We were sitting around and coming up with some possible 0:51:08.040 --> 0:51:09.680 numbers and I can't remember what they were, but they 0:51:09.719 --> 0:51:13.160 were they were hefty on the impact to the region 0:51:13.200 --> 0:51:16.120 if they were to shut the course down for nine months. 0:51:16.719 --> 0:51:20.319 You know, just get a cypress point to open up 0:51:20.320 --> 0:51:22.520 to the public. Right, Yeah, happened. 0:51:22.560 --> 0:51:26.160 That's not gonna happen. Not going to happen. Although you 0:51:26.160 --> 0:51:28.719 know it really Samuel Morris developed it. It was part 0:51:28.760 --> 0:51:31.000 of the uh, it's part of the family. You know, 0:51:31.200 --> 0:51:33.759 maybe it could it could do that for a little while. 0:51:33.760 --> 0:51:36.399 They could charge two thousand dollars green fees and they'd 0:51:36.400 --> 0:51:37.960 probably be booked immediately. 0:51:38.560 --> 0:51:42.479 You know, My grandpa used to go out to there, 0:51:42.760 --> 0:51:46.280 and I guess they used to sell like these week 0:51:46.440 --> 0:51:49.400 passes to Cyprus if you knew a member or something, 0:51:50.000 --> 0:51:52.799 so he'd get it for like a week. And one 0:51:52.840 --> 0:51:55.680 time one of his buddies, one of his buddies came 0:51:55.760 --> 0:51:58.840 out and his buddy hadn't ever seen pebble, so he 0:51:59.320 --> 0:52:02.879 insisted that they go play. And like, you know, till 0:52:02.960 --> 0:52:06.560 his deathbed, it was one of my grandfather's like greatest 0:52:06.600 --> 0:52:09.719 regrets was was having to leave Cyprus to go play 0:52:09.760 --> 0:52:10.640 pebble for a day. 0:52:11.960 --> 0:52:14.120 Yeah, I can and I can understand that. Of course, 0:52:14.160 --> 0:52:17.360 that's a nice problem to have, is uh. Tele tebble 0:52:17.400 --> 0:52:19.880 even and and and don't get me wrong, in this state, 0:52:20.440 --> 0:52:25.840 it's still a great experience. It's still breaks fun to play. 0:52:25.880 --> 0:52:28.160 There's still nothing quite like it. 0:52:28.280 --> 0:52:30.719 So, uh, you know, one of the courses i'd love 0:52:30.800 --> 0:52:33.399 to see like a restoration of And I'm sure you're 0:52:33.400 --> 0:52:35.920 pretty familiar of it with it being from l A. 0:52:36.040 --> 0:52:38.080 And I just love to hear your two cents is 0:52:38.239 --> 0:52:41.080 is Rancho Park? Mmmm? 0:52:43.000 --> 0:52:47.680 Yeah, Rancho is more of a meaning uh just needing 0:52:48.400 --> 0:52:51.359 some some care. Not that the people who work there 0:52:51.440 --> 0:52:54.200 don't care, it's just that the city of la has 0:52:54.280 --> 0:52:57.239 kind of neglected it's it's all of its courses and 0:52:57.320 --> 0:53:01.840 doesn't know really what what the what is what people 0:53:01.920 --> 0:53:06.000 want in terms of of turf. You know, they think 0:53:06.000 --> 0:53:08.480 people want green grass, but then we've had our drafts, 0:53:08.480 --> 0:53:10.520 so they've cut the water back. And I mean, I 0:53:10.520 --> 0:53:15.200 hear Rancho is so baked out at times that it's 0:53:15.280 --> 0:53:17.680 just not not it's it's and it's not good firm, 0:53:17.760 --> 0:53:20.879 it's not link firm. It's this baked out, rock hard 0:53:20.920 --> 0:53:23.280 thing that that hurts when you hit a ball. And 0:53:23.520 --> 0:53:27.320 so it's a sensational golf course in terms of being 0:53:27.400 --> 0:53:33.080 a cast of every shot, every stance and lie and 0:53:33.080 --> 0:53:35.000 and and you have to move the ball and it's 0:53:35.080 --> 0:53:39.040 it's it's really fun that way, and the players who 0:53:39.080 --> 0:53:42.120 always played there. I caddied in the Senior Tour event 0:53:42.160 --> 0:53:44.560 when it was there. And the old guys who would 0:53:44.560 --> 0:53:48.680 play there are the Trevino's and they used to get 0:53:48.680 --> 0:53:51.080 great fields at that event. Jack Nicholas never played, but 0:53:51.120 --> 0:53:54.480 of course Arnold Palmer had a great relationship with Rancho 0:53:54.600 --> 0:53:58.240 Park and always played, and and Trevino and player would play. 0:53:58.320 --> 0:54:00.839 And it was so much fun watch those guys hit 0:54:00.920 --> 0:54:04.680 shots around there. Billy Casper slinging these big big that 0:54:04.760 --> 0:54:06.600 was it the point where he was sitting a huge 0:54:06.960 --> 0:54:11.720 hook and watching him play that golf course and shape shots, 0:54:12.239 --> 0:54:15.319 and then watch somebody like al Geiberger kind of go 0:54:15.400 --> 0:54:18.879 around with his smooth tempo or Dave Stockton grinding it out. 0:54:18.920 --> 0:54:22.920 And it really is an amazing place that you wish 0:54:23.840 --> 0:54:28.560 would be would be just better, just a little better presented. 0:54:28.640 --> 0:54:31.640 And I think they've taken a hit interestingly there. It's 0:54:31.719 --> 0:54:33.319 not as crowded as it used to be. Of course, 0:54:33.320 --> 0:54:36.000 it used to be ridiculous, you couldn't. People would spend 0:54:36.000 --> 0:54:37.480 the night to get out there, and now you can 0:54:37.520 --> 0:54:40.400 go out on in any afternoon and get out pretty easily. 0:54:40.440 --> 0:54:42.319 And part of that's the state of golf. Part of 0:54:42.320 --> 0:54:44.840 it's the state of the way they they run it 0:54:44.920 --> 0:54:46.960 and present it. They don't have a pro shop. I mean, 0:54:47.800 --> 0:54:49.879 the vendors of all the pro shops in the city 0:54:49.920 --> 0:54:53.239 of la have other than I believe the barbers still 0:54:53.280 --> 0:54:58.160 at Griveth Park have walked away from their their shops. 0:54:58.200 --> 0:55:01.440 Just the city can't even make those work and make 0:55:01.480 --> 0:55:04.239 it work for them. So it's it's one of the 0:55:04.280 --> 0:55:06.719 reasons why I think people aren't very excited about the 0:55:06.760 --> 0:55:09.839 Olympic golf when it comes here. It's like, oh, great, 0:55:09.880 --> 0:55:13.200 We're gonna go to Riviera. And meanwhile, we have this 0:55:13.239 --> 0:55:15.760 public course system that's kind of in shambles, and wouldn't 0:55:15.760 --> 0:55:20.200 it be nice if we we could have this be 0:55:21.719 --> 0:55:25.200 nicer and or even maybe use something like Griverth Park 0:55:25.760 --> 0:55:28.040 for the for the games, but we we are not there. 0:55:28.280 --> 0:55:32.319 Have they picked? Have they picked Riviera as the site? Officially? 0:55:32.680 --> 0:55:35.120 They did? They did. They were originally going to consider 0:55:35.520 --> 0:55:39.840 a public course renovation, uh. And they when the IOC 0:55:40.040 --> 0:55:43.520 went in on the whole use existing venues thing, they 0:55:43.680 --> 0:55:48.040 gravitated towards Riviera and and it's it's gonna be very 0:55:48.040 --> 0:55:50.840 interesting because I don't send a lot of good vibes 0:55:50.840 --> 0:55:55.160 from people that that's gonna be something that gets people excited, 0:55:55.239 --> 0:55:58.800 especially if the format doesn't get more interesting fairly quickly, 0:55:59.520 --> 0:56:03.200 because of course we see every year and so we're 0:56:03.239 --> 0:56:05.400 just gonna go play another stroke play event at Riviera. 0:56:05.560 --> 0:56:07.560 That's great, That's that's not very exciting. 0:56:07.920 --> 0:56:10.120 I mean you think about the money they put into 0:56:10.239 --> 0:56:13.239 like the Rio course. If you could put that into 0:56:13.280 --> 0:56:16.239 a course like Rancho Park, I mean, how good would 0:56:16.239 --> 0:56:16.840 that place be. 0:56:18.440 --> 0:56:21.919 Yeah, And there's just such a different vibe when you 0:56:21.960 --> 0:56:25.239 play a tournament in the middle of the city at 0:56:25.239 --> 0:56:28.320 of course that the public can play. It is I 0:56:28.360 --> 0:56:30.799 mean those those Champions Store events, well it was a 0:56:30.840 --> 0:56:34.280 senior tour then at Rancho used to get huge crowds. 0:56:34.280 --> 0:56:37.080 I mean amazing for La you know, twenty twenty five 0:56:37.160 --> 0:56:40.239 thousand people on the weekend, and granted, you know you 0:56:40.320 --> 0:56:43.560 had Trevino and some others not long past their their 0:56:43.600 --> 0:56:46.680 prime playing and Arnold Palmer. That's going to get people there. 0:56:46.719 --> 0:56:50.319 But the energy is just so different and there's just 0:56:50.400 --> 0:56:55.920 nothing like it in tournament golf. But it's it's it's 0:56:55.920 --> 0:56:58.080 needs work, Yeah. 0:56:57.960 --> 0:57:01.719 It's I used to live when I lived I lived 0:57:01.760 --> 0:57:04.440 in La for six months and one of my uh 0:57:04.920 --> 0:57:07.719 one of my places was like right next to Rancho Park. 0:57:07.760 --> 0:57:10.200 I could walk there oh much, and you know, I'd 0:57:10.200 --> 0:57:12.439 go out there at like five six o'clock like any 0:57:12.520 --> 0:57:16.280 I mean it, it's got the bones of such a 0:57:16.320 --> 0:57:18.840 good court. I think about it all the time. It's like, 0:57:18.920 --> 0:57:23.720 you know, in terms of a city owned course, like bones, 0:57:23.760 --> 0:57:26.320 and you know it it could be a really great 0:57:26.360 --> 0:57:31.280 golf course. So something I'll just keep hoping for. But 0:57:31.320 --> 0:57:33.840 it doesn't sound like it's a it's got much of 0:57:33.880 --> 0:57:39.280 a chance. So so I'm kinda we'll get you out 0:57:39.280 --> 0:57:41.400 of here. You know, it's I got the holiday weekend. 0:57:41.520 --> 0:57:46.280 Uh we do. Our tradition is overrated, underrated. So we're 0:57:46.280 --> 0:57:48.560 gonna we're gonna fire some topics at you, and you 0:57:48.920 --> 0:57:54.680 just say overrated, underrated. The short part four. 0:57:56.360 --> 0:57:59.760 I actually have come to the conclusion that's it's underrated. 0:58:00.120 --> 0:58:04.640 And for a couple of reasons. One, we're just starting 0:58:04.680 --> 0:58:06.480 to see people design more and more of them that 0:58:06.520 --> 0:58:10.080 are better and doing different things strategically. And by the way, 0:58:10.080 --> 0:58:11.680 am I supposed to give long answers and. 0:58:11.720 --> 0:58:15.160 These you can do whatever you want. 0:58:15.320 --> 0:58:18.520 But I think the other thing that besides the fact 0:58:18.560 --> 0:58:20.960 that we're just now starting to see all these cool 0:58:21.600 --> 0:58:26.080 iterations of holes and offshoots is that in the era 0:58:26.160 --> 0:58:29.400 of technology, the short part five has kind of died 0:58:29.440 --> 0:58:32.480 as the great risk reward hole, and the short part 0:58:32.520 --> 0:58:34.400 four has kind of picked up the slack and it's 0:58:34.480 --> 0:58:38.680 made I think people more than anything that's gone on, 0:58:39.520 --> 0:58:41.880 the interest in short Part four is in tournament golf 0:58:42.400 --> 0:58:45.800 in the last fifteen twenty years has raised awareness of 0:58:45.880 --> 0:58:50.840 what architecture means to tournament golf, what architecture means to 0:58:50.920 --> 0:58:57.240 every day golf, and how fun well designed holes can be. 0:58:57.800 --> 0:59:00.960 And I think it's all the short part four. Maybe 0:59:01.000 --> 0:59:03.800 a few great risk reward part fives, but short part fours. 0:59:03.920 --> 0:59:08.400 Everybody can enjoy the dynamics. You know, the average golfer 0:59:08.440 --> 0:59:10.600 can be playing a match with a better player and 0:59:10.640 --> 0:59:12.800 beat them on those holes because they play it nice 0:59:12.800 --> 0:59:16.480 and safe and the good player gets greedy that kind 0:59:16.560 --> 0:59:19.880 of thing, And so I can't get enough of them, 0:59:19.920 --> 0:59:22.520 and I hope, I hope it just keeps going and 0:59:22.560 --> 0:59:25.480 people keep demanding more of them on every course. 0:59:26.080 --> 0:59:29.280 Yeah, I really like it. I think I think part 0:59:29.280 --> 0:59:31.640 of the issue like it. And it's obviously like a 0:59:31.760 --> 0:59:35.240 huge you know, viewing standpoint, Like there's like a you know, 0:59:35.280 --> 0:59:38.640 a viewing appeal to it. Something that drives me nuts, though, 0:59:38.680 --> 0:59:43.000 is how people like don't appreciate long par fives, Like 0:59:43.080 --> 0:59:46.160 how it it like it has this stigma of like 0:59:46.200 --> 0:59:48.840 it when they were out at Baltisral and everybody was 0:59:48.920 --> 0:59:52.240 like all over the seventeenth hole for like, oh, it's 0:59:52.280 --> 0:59:55.160 so boring. It's like that's like one of the greatest 0:59:55.200 --> 0:59:58.240 long par fives in golf, you know, And I think 0:59:58.240 --> 1:00:00.560 that short part four is kind of I've led to 1:00:00.600 --> 1:00:03.560 that and it's like, well, like you know, they're the 1:00:03.840 --> 1:00:07.040 great architecture, isn't just you know, I don't know. I 1:00:07.040 --> 1:00:11.720 think they're almost overrated because they've become so popular. But 1:00:11.880 --> 1:00:14.080 that's just me think contrar. 1:00:14.000 --> 1:00:17.200 Yeah, one of the interesting things that's happened on the 1:00:17.240 --> 1:00:19.960 long par five. And would I would agree with you 1:00:20.760 --> 1:00:25.480 in the sense that they have lost their luster because 1:00:27.560 --> 1:00:30.560 in the technology era, you felt so much pressure on 1:00:30.600 --> 1:00:33.680 the t shot and the second shot to hit two 1:00:33.720 --> 1:00:36.640 good shots to give you yourself that good third. And 1:00:36.680 --> 1:00:40.320 now you hear this all the time. The guys, well 1:00:40.440 --> 1:00:42.240 good players will tell you, well, it's just one hundred 1:00:42.280 --> 1:00:44.480 yard part three, we couldn't go for it, and so 1:00:44.560 --> 1:00:47.360 they forced us to basically play one hundred yard part three. 1:00:47.360 --> 1:00:49.880 And I don't disagree with that assessment when but it 1:00:49.920 --> 1:00:51.640 also you know, helps when you can hit a three 1:00:51.720 --> 1:00:54.680 hundred and twenty yards and then you can hit a hybrid, 1:00:55.080 --> 1:00:58.760 you know, two seventy. Yeah, it's kind of it took 1:00:58.840 --> 1:01:00.960 seven hundred yards. And by the way, we just had 1:01:01.000 --> 1:01:03.080 almost seven hundred yards of Aaron Hills with not much 1:01:03.160 --> 1:01:06.920 role and we still had guys get home into Yeah, 1:01:06.960 --> 1:01:09.720 so to actually build a long par five that does 1:01:09.760 --> 1:01:14.160 what you're you're getting at, which is put that uh 1:01:14.480 --> 1:01:18.320 importance on on every shot. Uh, you really have to, 1:01:18.440 --> 1:01:22.560 I think for good players have about eight hundred yards. 1:01:22.280 --> 1:01:25.560 It is kind of crazy. Yeah, I mean, well, and 1:01:25.720 --> 1:01:29.360 he hit three shots that's uh, or it needs to 1:01:29.360 --> 1:01:30.200 be like seven. 1:01:30.560 --> 1:01:33.840 And there wasn't that much roll. That's what's scary. It 1:01:33.880 --> 1:01:35.880 was and there wasn't that much wind. It was just 1:01:35.920 --> 1:01:37.960 slightly down wind and a little bit of roll, but 1:01:38.040 --> 1:01:39.040 nothing abnormal. 1:01:40.200 --> 1:01:41.280 Maybe they need to go up. 1:01:41.600 --> 1:01:44.920 That was that was nuts. Yeah's and oh yeah, by 1:01:44.920 --> 1:01:47.040 the way, oh yeah, by the way, it basically is 1:01:47.120 --> 1:01:50.360 slat or the last part of that a tenth pall 1:01:50.400 --> 1:01:59.080 of Aaron. It's just is a little slightly up. I mean, yeah, yeah, 1:01:59.120 --> 1:02:01.200 the tea, the tee t shot is elevated. 1:02:01.280 --> 1:02:03.320 Correct, yeah, most of me. 1:02:03.480 --> 1:02:06.800 Not like you're driving off a cliff. It was. It 1:02:06.880 --> 1:02:13.760 was incredible what they did there. And I heard nobody 1:02:13.840 --> 1:02:17.960 in the press tentk going wow, that's amazing. It was like, Okay, 1:02:18.240 --> 1:02:21.240 this is ridiculous, this is absurd, and that that's a 1:02:21.280 --> 1:02:24.040 big change a few years ago. If I had said, 1:02:24.040 --> 1:02:26.880 and I was the one just sitting there going just nodding, 1:02:26.920 --> 1:02:29.720 and I didn't have a strong view either way because 1:02:29.720 --> 1:02:32.000 I'm used to this, the ridiculousness of this now. But 1:02:32.480 --> 1:02:36.320 it was fascinating. That was the takeaway was not all 1:02:36.360 --> 1:02:39.640 these guys are amazing athletes. That is so awesome. They 1:02:39.640 --> 1:02:41.760 did that on a six hundred and eighty seven yard hold. 1:02:42.000 --> 1:02:46.480 It was consistently okay, enough enough enough, we have to 1:02:46.480 --> 1:02:47.000 do something. 1:02:47.360 --> 1:02:50.560 Yeah, it's uh, it's out of control. I played. I 1:02:50.600 --> 1:02:52.880 played golf last year with a fourteen year old who 1:02:52.920 --> 1:02:55.320 hit it like fifteen yards pass me. I hit it 1:02:55.360 --> 1:02:57.600 like three hundred yards. And I was like when I 1:02:57.640 --> 1:03:02.320 was fourteen, Utterly, when I was fourteen, I hit a 1:03:02.360 --> 1:03:03.320 two hundred yards. 1:03:03.560 --> 1:03:07.520 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it's insane and they have 1:03:07.600 --> 1:03:10.280 no The only thing I don't, you know, and I hate, 1:03:10.680 --> 1:03:13.920 I hate to sound like an old fuddy duddy, but 1:03:13.960 --> 1:03:15.800 what it where it does bother me is the game 1:03:15.880 --> 1:03:20.040 is no longer humbling these kids, uh and and I 1:03:20.080 --> 1:03:24.080 think there is some positive element in the game. I 1:03:24.120 --> 1:03:26.120 don't want to go back to Hickory's and being humbled 1:03:26.120 --> 1:03:31.160 by hitting a snap book and and and or in 1:03:31.240 --> 1:03:34.480 the persimmon and steel. That's we don't need to do that. 1:03:34.640 --> 1:03:38.240 But it would be nice if they they had to 1:03:38.280 --> 1:03:42.560 swing just slightly more cautiously at the ball. But with 1:03:42.680 --> 1:03:46.960 track Man and the equipment of the combination, uh, you're 1:03:47.000 --> 1:03:49.520 just you're just going to keep seeing more, uh more 1:03:49.760 --> 1:03:53.200 more guys like Champ from from Texas A and m 1:03:53.240 --> 1:03:55.919 and who just are are freakishly long. 1:03:56.240 --> 1:03:59.640 And I think it diminishes like the impact of like, 1:03:59.800 --> 1:04:02.840 you know, great long iron players, you know, because. 1:04:02.760 --> 1:04:06.240 Oh absolutely, they're just there. 1:04:05.840 --> 1:04:08.880 Aren't any long irons anymore. You know, long irons are 1:04:09.240 --> 1:04:12.320 you know, an occasional par three and and pretty much 1:04:12.840 --> 1:04:13.800 you know par fives. 1:04:15.240 --> 1:04:18.960 Yeah, yeah, so yeah, no, it's it's definitely a lost 1:04:19.000 --> 1:04:22.320 part of the game. So and then, by the way, 1:04:22.440 --> 1:04:24.640 a lot of venues, it's all the driver also gets 1:04:24.640 --> 1:04:27.840 taken out of their hands because of this. So and 1:04:27.920 --> 1:04:30.040 to me that's a shame too. I want to see 1:04:31.720 --> 1:04:32.640 the driver used. 1:04:33.000 --> 1:04:37.520 What do you think about hosting a tournament at like 1:04:37.560 --> 1:04:41.640 a sixty eight hundred yard classic course. That's like obviously 1:04:42.000 --> 1:04:43.720 if it rained at all, you know, we'd have to 1:04:43.760 --> 1:04:45.960 put a dome over it. But that's like, you know, 1:04:46.120 --> 1:04:49.920 nice and crispy, you know, firm and fast where you 1:04:49.960 --> 1:04:52.280 know guys could go for the green. But all of 1:04:52.280 --> 1:04:54.320 a sudden, you know, if you hit into the wrong spot, 1:04:54.400 --> 1:04:57.800 you've got you know, impossible angles and and so on. 1:04:57.920 --> 1:04:59.920 So far, what do you think about a golf turn 1:05:00.240 --> 1:05:01.600 being played at something like that? 1:05:02.800 --> 1:05:04.720 It would be nice, but you know, if if you're 1:05:04.760 --> 1:05:07.040 okay with them hitting iron off most of the t's 1:05:07.120 --> 1:05:10.560 which is where we're headed, and I'm not okay with that. 1:05:10.640 --> 1:05:15.040 I like to see the driver used and used to 1:05:15.040 --> 1:05:18.440 to to gain a reward. And that's the problem. That's 1:05:18.440 --> 1:05:21.080 where you need the ball that that is better suited 1:05:21.120 --> 1:05:21.960 for those courses. 1:05:22.400 --> 1:05:29.160 Yeah, that's true. So next next topic, we'll do modern 1:05:29.240 --> 1:05:31.560 green design overrated underrated. 1:05:34.360 --> 1:05:39.680 Uh, well, they're overrated and that most of them aren't 1:05:39.760 --> 1:05:42.120 very good, so they're they're underrated and how bad they are. 1:05:44.480 --> 1:05:47.120 And that's not all the architects fault, but I h 1:05:47.480 --> 1:05:51.400 it's it's two things. It's it's the one that the 1:05:51.480 --> 1:05:53.680 u s g A green or the or the modified 1:05:53.760 --> 1:05:57.280 us G greens. It's very hard to construct and very high, 1:05:57.400 --> 1:06:00.360 hard to tie into the surrounds and the kind of 1:06:00.400 --> 1:06:02.800 had the fairway just meld into the green. I mean 1:06:02.800 --> 1:06:04.960 the best courses, you feel like the green is almost 1:06:04.960 --> 1:06:08.120 just an extension of the contours of the ground and 1:06:08.160 --> 1:06:10.880 the fairway. And I think that's why people respond to 1:06:10.960 --> 1:06:13.600 links golf so much, because those that's exactly what they are. 1:06:13.760 --> 1:06:16.760 So when you're playing this kind of nice, gentle ground 1:06:16.800 --> 1:06:18.520 and then you come upon this thing that's sort of 1:06:18.560 --> 1:06:23.560 propped up artificially and overcontoured, it's it's it's it's offensive 1:06:23.600 --> 1:06:25.760 to me and most people's senses, and a lot of 1:06:25.800 --> 1:06:29.360 it's the The construction of the USGA green is just 1:06:29.440 --> 1:06:31.920 very hard to do. That That's why Corn Crenshaw don't 1:06:31.920 --> 1:06:35.440 build USGA greens. They dump a big area of sand 1:06:35.480 --> 1:06:38.480 where the green complexes and then and then melded into 1:06:38.480 --> 1:06:41.680 the the fairway and the surrounding landscape. 1:06:41.880 --> 1:06:45.400 Yeah. I think. I think one of the things that's 1:06:45.400 --> 1:06:49.320 happened with like the modern era of architecture, where you know, 1:06:49.640 --> 1:06:51.840 we've got this playability and we get all this with 1:06:52.600 --> 1:06:55.560 is that architects focus like, oh, I'm going to make 1:06:55.600 --> 1:06:58.360 this tough for the good player by making this green 1:06:58.560 --> 1:07:03.360 crazy undulated, you know, and then it's like but like 1:07:03.600 --> 1:07:06.000 to me, I think, you know, when you have that 1:07:06.040 --> 1:07:09.080 big undulation is almost easier because you just you can 1:07:09.120 --> 1:07:11.840 see the break. You know, it's very clear which way 1:07:11.880 --> 1:07:15.800 this putt breaks. And you know, you see these classic courses, 1:07:15.840 --> 1:07:18.000 a lot of them. You get on the green and 1:07:18.000 --> 1:07:20.400 and there will be these small little subtleties with the 1:07:20.440 --> 1:07:24.120 flatter greens where you can't even see the break and 1:07:24.240 --> 1:07:26.200 you're like, oh, this is right edge, and then you 1:07:26.240 --> 1:07:28.640 miss it a ball right because it moves a little 1:07:28.640 --> 1:07:32.040 and you and that's what drives you know, players nut 1:07:32.440 --> 1:07:35.120 versus you know that average players, it's going to try 1:07:35.160 --> 1:07:36.360 and ram it in the back of the hole and 1:07:36.360 --> 1:07:37.120 probably makes it. 1:07:38.760 --> 1:07:42.240 Yeah. Yeah, No, subtlety and green design is definitely something 1:07:42.320 --> 1:07:45.000 that I think that's why people love what Ben and 1:07:45.040 --> 1:07:48.360 Bill do they they they have kind of that character 1:07:48.480 --> 1:07:50.320 that you're you just described. M. 1:07:50.920 --> 1:07:55.000 Yeah, it's it's interesting. It'll be interesting to see how 1:07:55.240 --> 1:07:58.480 how it continues to progress. But I think that that 1:07:58.600 --> 1:08:05.680 less is almost more and and green. So Jordan Spieth overrated, underrated? 1:08:08.480 --> 1:08:13.520 Uh? Well, I don't. I don't think he's overrated as 1:08:13.520 --> 1:08:15.720 a as a talent. I think he gets a lot 1:08:15.760 --> 1:08:20.960 out of his uh, his ability. I H So, I 1:08:21.640 --> 1:08:27.840 think he's uh, uh, he's a he's a complicated individual, 1:08:27.920 --> 1:08:32.800 I think, more more so than people realize. And uh, 1:08:32.920 --> 1:08:35.320 I'm I I don't know if he should be if 1:08:35.360 --> 1:08:37.880 he should be trying to be calmer and quieter on 1:08:37.920 --> 1:08:40.679 the course, or if it'd be like Lee Tremino trying 1:08:40.680 --> 1:08:43.679 to shut him up and and and make him less 1:08:43.680 --> 1:08:47.479 funny and more serious, if if if it would backfire 1:08:47.520 --> 1:08:49.439 in that sense, as it would with Jordan, I think 1:08:49.479 --> 1:08:53.400 that he's uh. I I think he's an incredible talent. 1:08:53.600 --> 1:08:57.160 And uh, it's amazing what he's doing right now with 1:08:57.280 --> 1:09:00.280 his putting really not being even close to what it 1:09:00.760 --> 1:09:04.240 was and looking so bad sometimes over the ball. I mean, 1:09:04.240 --> 1:09:06.280 I don't think people are giving him enough credit. How 1:09:06.720 --> 1:09:09.760 good his ball striking has gotten and you know, you 1:09:09.760 --> 1:09:11.400 know how the game is. Of course, soon as you 1:09:11.840 --> 1:09:14.800 work on that, you know, another part gets neglected. And 1:09:14.840 --> 1:09:16.639 I think that's what's happened with him a little bit. 1:09:16.720 --> 1:09:20.200 So if the putting just comes back to being solid, 1:09:20.280 --> 1:09:22.559 doesn't even have to be what it was in twenty fifteen, 1:09:23.439 --> 1:09:28.160 I think he's he's really really gonna win a lot. 1:09:29.200 --> 1:09:32.439 So I don't know, maybe i'd say underrated in the 1:09:32.479 --> 1:09:36.400 sense that I think he's underrated and now how many 1:09:36.439 --> 1:09:39.200 things he's doing well. I just also but I do 1:09:39.280 --> 1:09:41.120 wonder about the attitude if all that, I mean this 1:09:41.280 --> 1:09:44.200 Fox picked up so much dialogue at Aaron Hills. My gosh, 1:09:44.280 --> 1:09:47.519 he talks a lot. On the course. He puts so 1:09:47.640 --> 1:09:52.080 much energy into all this, this immediate reactions to the 1:09:52.120 --> 1:09:55.120 shots and then in the play by play, and I 1:09:55.680 --> 1:09:57.960 part of me thinks that's great, that's his nervous energy, 1:09:58.000 --> 1:09:59.880 that's how he functions. But part of me wonders, sees 1:10:00.320 --> 1:10:04.160 five and a half hours, Yeah, that's got to get exhausting. 1:10:04.760 --> 1:10:08.000 It's it's interesting, It's I think it was either was 1:10:08.000 --> 1:10:10.400 it Phil that said you either have to be like 1:10:11.120 --> 1:10:15.200 incredibly intelligent or like extremely dumb. To be really great 1:10:15.200 --> 1:10:15.719 at golf. 1:10:17.040 --> 1:10:19.559 Yeah, yeah, and I think he's. 1:10:19.560 --> 1:10:23.679 Yeah, he's on the spectrum of incredibly intelligent and has 1:10:23.840 --> 1:10:26.640 you know, is thinking about so many different levels of 1:10:26.720 --> 1:10:29.280 things that I would me and you would never even 1:10:29.479 --> 1:10:32.320 you know, come across our mind versus you know, a 1:10:32.360 --> 1:10:36.160 Boo weekly I mean talk about all time right, contrasts 1:10:36.160 --> 1:10:41.559 and final pairings like you know, I think I think 1:10:41.600 --> 1:10:44.120 he's I think he's underrated, you know, I hear you 1:10:44.240 --> 1:10:47.000 hear people say like, oh, he got lucky to win 1:10:47.040 --> 1:10:50.760 that tournament, like well, like you know, as certain to 1:10:50.800 --> 1:10:53.880 a certain degree, like you can't get lucky and win 1:10:54.560 --> 1:10:56.280 like what was he won ten times? Now? 1:10:57.600 --> 1:11:01.519 Yeah that's not luck. Yeah, that's still I think the 1:11:01.920 --> 1:11:05.000 thing that's fascinating about him, that's that fascinates us with 1:11:05.120 --> 1:11:08.479 a lot of these players, like a Nicholas or Bobby Jones, 1:11:08.560 --> 1:11:13.560 is that you're right there. They are very thoughtful, introspective. 1:11:13.600 --> 1:11:18.839 They're noticing every little detail. And when you see somebody 1:11:18.960 --> 1:11:22.639 like that and you know golf, it's and Ben Crenchaw 1:11:22.760 --> 1:11:24.800 is the same way. He notices every little thing about 1:11:24.800 --> 1:11:29.080 a golf course. But they are able to set aside 1:11:29.400 --> 1:11:32.120 whatever feelings they have about a course or the setup 1:11:33.240 --> 1:11:37.040 or the weather or this or that, and ultimately just 1:11:37.040 --> 1:11:39.960 just try to get the job done. And yeah, he's 1:11:39.960 --> 1:11:42.000 had times where he's i think lost a little of 1:11:42.000 --> 1:11:45.800 that just because he's he's pressing. But I think ultimately 1:11:45.840 --> 1:11:49.000 we're fascinated by those players way more than the one 1:11:49.000 --> 1:11:51.960 who's And nothing against Dustin Johnson, but it just kind 1:11:52.000 --> 1:11:55.519 of quietly just goes and doesn't really think too much. 1:11:55.560 --> 1:12:00.160 I mean, we admire the way he handled Oakmont, but 1:12:00.240 --> 1:12:03.719 in terms of watching the sport, it's always been more 1:12:03.840 --> 1:12:09.479 interesting to study somebody who is thinking so much in 1:12:09.560 --> 1:12:11.320 a sport where you have so much time to think, 1:12:11.360 --> 1:12:14.000 but then is able to set things aside most of 1:12:14.040 --> 1:12:16.880 the time and play the shots no matter how they 1:12:17.280 --> 1:12:22.000 how they feel about them, for the circumstances. 1:12:22.320 --> 1:12:25.320 He's I think if you were going to say one 1:12:25.360 --> 1:12:28.799 player to move the needle in this post Tiger generation, 1:12:28.960 --> 1:12:31.760 he's the only one that really could, you. 1:12:31.720 --> 1:12:35.360 Know, yeah right now, He's the one that has a 1:12:35.400 --> 1:12:39.639 certain it factor that that would be obviously no one's 1:12:39.680 --> 1:12:42.280 gonna I don't think ever reached the level of Tiger 1:12:42.320 --> 1:12:45.880 in terms of being intriguing to general sports fans. He's 1:12:45.960 --> 1:12:48.599 just one of a kind. Somebody might come along, But 1:12:48.680 --> 1:12:52.920 I do sense that speak has something that makes people 1:12:52.920 --> 1:12:55.080 out the numbers show it that makes people want to 1:12:55.120 --> 1:12:58.400 tune in and and and watch him down the stretch. 1:12:58.600 --> 1:13:04.040 That's that's different than take your pick any of the 1:13:04.080 --> 1:13:04.960 other top players. 1:13:05.320 --> 1:13:12.120 Yeah, so we'll do one more here. Omar your rusty 1:13:12.800 --> 1:13:13.880 as a PGA pro. 1:13:16.680 --> 1:13:19.719 I don't know if he's underrated or overran. You probably 1:13:20.360 --> 1:13:24.000 noticed I did not take on this vital topic. This 1:13:24.080 --> 1:13:27.800 is a to me, a first world issue. I'm far 1:13:27.840 --> 1:13:30.599 more offended by people who played the tour for several 1:13:30.680 --> 1:13:33.160 years regaining their amateur status than a guy who played 1:13:33.160 --> 1:13:38.280 the tour who has become a sweater folder and made 1:13:38.360 --> 1:13:40.599 his way into the PGA Championship where they still where 1:13:40.600 --> 1:13:44.760 they give twenty spots twenty Okay, it wasn't like he 1:13:44.840 --> 1:13:50.080 took the lone spots. So this controversy, to me, spoke 1:13:50.200 --> 1:13:56.680 to a certain kind of really delusional almost sense of 1:13:57.160 --> 1:14:00.679 what the Club Pro Championship means to the p Look. 1:14:00.800 --> 1:14:04.720 Nineteen other guys got in calm down, and that was 1:14:04.800 --> 1:14:06.880 kind of it for me. I'm again, I'm much more 1:14:06.920 --> 1:14:09.880 bothered by somebody who made a lot of money on 1:14:09.920 --> 1:14:13.479 the tour and then is going competing as an amateur again. 1:14:13.840 --> 1:14:16.719 That doesn't sit as well. Yeah, you know, I don't 1:14:16.720 --> 1:14:18.240 know if it sits well with anybody. 1:14:19.080 --> 1:14:21.519 Well, I was in the midam last year and I'm 1:14:21.520 --> 1:14:24.479 looking down the field and I'm like, Mike Muir didn't 1:14:24.479 --> 1:14:26.600 he plan I look it up. He made like he 1:14:26.640 --> 1:14:29.160 almost made a million dollars play on tour and he's 1:14:29.200 --> 1:14:32.000 now he's a midam. I'm like, how am I in 1:14:32.160 --> 1:14:35.639 him at all? In the same you know field here? 1:14:35.680 --> 1:14:38.400 And you know I got guys like Jess Daley who 1:14:38.840 --> 1:14:42.360 you know, you know, played for you know, fifteen twenty 1:14:42.439 --> 1:14:44.920 years on many tours. I mean it to me, and 1:14:44.960 --> 1:14:47.120 you know he got his tour card for a year 1:14:47.200 --> 1:14:50.720 or two. To me, that is like the biggest I 1:14:50.720 --> 1:14:55.599 don't understand how the USGA deems them an amateur because 1:14:55.640 --> 1:14:59.000 they haven't played, you know, for professionally for two years. 1:14:59.280 --> 1:14:59.439 You know. 1:15:00.320 --> 1:15:03.040 Yeah, yeah, there are a lot of issues with amateur 1:15:03.080 --> 1:15:05.040 status right now. And not to go down a rat hole, 1:15:05.080 --> 1:15:08.400 but I really think we're at a point that's very 1:15:08.479 --> 1:15:14.760 dangerous for amter golf. The combination of the gobs of 1:15:14.800 --> 1:15:18.479 free equipment, the you know when I when I played, 1:15:18.479 --> 1:15:21.000 I had to actually cover my Pepperdine logo in a 1:15:21.120 --> 1:15:25.519 in a USGA qualifier a couple of times, and that 1:15:25.680 --> 1:15:28.320 was going too far, obviously. But this idea, now you 1:15:28.360 --> 1:15:32.639 have kids growing up with wearing all the corporate stuff 1:15:33.000 --> 1:15:35.839 and getting free equipment. I don't you know the concept 1:15:35.920 --> 1:15:39.479 of the amateur And I got why it was done. 1:15:39.520 --> 1:15:42.240 It was to help people who who didn't have access 1:15:42.360 --> 1:15:45.320 versus those who did to great stuff and great equipment, 1:15:45.520 --> 1:15:49.400 and it is vital in the way the equipment impacts 1:15:49.400 --> 1:15:53.000 the game now, but I feel like it's undermining amateur 1:15:53.120 --> 1:15:55.880 golf in a way that's really really dangerous. You know, 1:15:56.000 --> 1:15:58.679 we have this Walker Cup in the US Amateur coming 1:15:58.760 --> 1:16:04.720 up here in southern California. I don't sense any enthusiasm 1:16:04.800 --> 1:16:06.920 for either one. I don't think people even know what 1:16:07.000 --> 1:16:10.160 amateur golf means anymore. So it's like, oh, okay, it's 1:16:10.200 --> 1:16:13.559 like some you know, college kids or what is it. 1:16:13.640 --> 1:16:15.479 You know, you try to explain it to people, and 1:16:15.840 --> 1:16:18.400 this is a US freaking amateur here. Come on, this 1:16:18.479 --> 1:16:20.519 is this used to be a big, big deal, and 1:16:21.720 --> 1:16:24.160 I just don't know. I think they went a little 1:16:24.200 --> 1:16:28.920 too far in allowing the rules to bend, and then 1:16:28.960 --> 1:16:31.920 you throw in things like that reinstate and amateurs, which 1:16:32.600 --> 1:16:35.439 they're not having the impact that they did early on, 1:16:35.600 --> 1:16:38.720 but it doesn't make you feel like the amateur game 1:16:38.840 --> 1:16:41.840 is as pure as it once was or should be. 1:16:42.240 --> 1:16:44.880 You know, it's something that's really interesting as like how 1:16:44.920 --> 1:16:49.120 the USGA over the last year has it to me, 1:16:49.280 --> 1:16:53.400 it looks like they've prioritized. Hey, you know, we're we're 1:16:53.479 --> 1:16:58.080 kind of more backing professional golf than amateur golf. You know, 1:16:58.120 --> 1:17:02.080 they eliminated the state team, which was a big mid 1:17:02.080 --> 1:17:06.120 am event. Then they they cut one of the mid 1:17:06.160 --> 1:17:08.559 am spots and and from what I've heard, they're going 1:17:08.640 --> 1:17:12.080 to cut a second mid am the second mid am spot, 1:17:12.400 --> 1:17:14.839 and then they added another professional turnament. 1:17:15.080 --> 1:17:17.280 I'm sorry on the on the walker cut the meme. 1:17:17.520 --> 1:17:22.360 Yeah yeah, yeah, no that that and I think that 1:17:22.479 --> 1:17:25.320 was a mistake though too, and that all David Fay 1:17:25.400 --> 1:17:27.200 said it best when it happened, So it should have 1:17:27.240 --> 1:17:29.240 just been an unwritten rule. You're going to take two 1:17:29.479 --> 1:17:32.960 midamters because there's gonna be a year and this year 1:17:33.000 --> 1:17:35.240 could even be the year, or you actually want to 1:17:35.280 --> 1:17:38.519 take three. Uh, you don't know what's either way college 1:17:38.520 --> 1:17:40.840 golfers are turning crow, there're gonna be years where you 1:17:40.880 --> 1:17:42.599 don't want to take any or you only take one. 1:17:42.720 --> 1:17:45.000 And they have made it. The set number was it 1:17:45.040 --> 1:17:47.600 almost was the meaning to the minameter game. To me, 1:17:47.880 --> 1:17:51.720 that that like they needed this charitable but anyway go on. 1:17:52.000 --> 1:17:54.960 But then but then so they eliminate the state team 1:17:55.200 --> 1:17:57.800 and then you know, they and then and then they're 1:17:57.840 --> 1:17:59.960 eliminating these spots. So it's like you're killing the am 1:18:00.000 --> 1:18:03.320 I mature, you know, like because you know, you're saying, hey, 1:18:03.320 --> 1:18:05.519 we're going to feel the team of all future pros. 1:18:05.600 --> 1:18:08.320 And then they add, you know, they eliminate state team 1:18:08.360 --> 1:18:12.240 and add the US Women's Senior Open, you know, another 1:18:12.320 --> 1:18:15.640 professional term. And and to me it's just like, you know, 1:18:15.680 --> 1:18:17.720 it leaves me scratching my head. It's like, you know, 1:18:17.840 --> 1:18:20.479 like you know, what's the difference between the state team 1:18:20.520 --> 1:18:24.280 and which one actually moves the needle more the Senior 1:18:24.320 --> 1:18:26.840 Women's Open. Is there an audience for that? 1:18:28.240 --> 1:18:30.519 I don't think so. And especially with the age when 1:18:30.520 --> 1:18:35.479 it being fifty, you know, I just I don't think 1:18:35.520 --> 1:18:37.880 I think that's too old. I think that that really 1:18:38.000 --> 1:18:43.400 women mature faster and they their their careers speak accordingly, 1:18:43.640 --> 1:18:46.400 and that it should have been forty five years old. 1:18:46.479 --> 1:18:49.200 But that's another story. It'll be the great golf Course, 1:18:49.240 --> 1:18:52.519 So there's that. But yeah, I'm I think that the 1:18:52.600 --> 1:18:56.400 USCA in general is has a I mean, look, they 1:18:56.400 --> 1:18:58.479 made their first tea starter at the US Open is 1:18:58.520 --> 1:19:00.880 a longtime golf pro. And not pick on him, but 1:19:03.080 --> 1:19:06.599 if you told Frank Hanigan or some of the PJ 1:19:06.760 --> 1:19:10.599 Bowwright that they'd made the first t announcers job lifetime 1:19:10.640 --> 1:19:14.200 appointment to a longtime PGA pro and not a somebody 1:19:14.200 --> 1:19:17.960 who serves the game as in the amateur game or 1:19:18.200 --> 1:19:21.000 has served the USGA, they just would they would just 1:19:21.040 --> 1:19:22.920 lose their minds, like what are you trying to do? 1:19:22.960 --> 1:19:23.120 Here? 1:19:23.120 --> 1:19:25.240 Are you trying to be? And Frank always warned against 1:19:25.280 --> 1:19:28.000 this trying to be loved, and that's kind of what's happened. 1:19:28.240 --> 1:19:31.320 I'd also throw in I'm not sure how the four 1:19:31.360 --> 1:19:34.960 balls have really gone over very well yet so far. 1:19:35.360 --> 1:19:37.640 I don't I'm not sensing the time of year is 1:19:37.680 --> 1:19:41.760 working and for the people that they wanted to be 1:19:42.600 --> 1:19:45.519 playing in those events. That does that seem like a 1:19:45.520 --> 1:19:46.840 fair observation? 1:19:47.280 --> 1:19:49.120 Is it is a bad time of the year, like 1:19:49.320 --> 1:19:51.800 you know, like for example, like I played my qualifier 1:19:51.840 --> 1:19:55.840 in like October, you know, and then the event is 1:19:55.880 --> 1:20:01.200 in end of May. You know, it's like, yeah, I 1:20:01.200 --> 1:20:02.800 don't know the date. 1:20:02.960 --> 1:20:05.040 The date seems to have been chosen to try to 1:20:05.080 --> 1:20:08.120 prevent college players from being able to play in it. 1:20:08.160 --> 1:20:12.360 But instead of yeah, what's the best date for for 1:20:12.760 --> 1:20:14.920 the majority? And I don't I don't see how as 1:20:14.960 --> 1:20:17.640 somebody who you know, that that they were hoping to 1:20:17.640 --> 1:20:22.680 get the person who's that plays a club club invitationals 1:20:22.920 --> 1:20:26.040 with a partner, that that that date works for them. 1:20:26.080 --> 1:20:27.320 I don't see it. 1:20:27.520 --> 1:20:29.840 Well, the other issue is that you just have these 1:20:29.960 --> 1:20:33.320 kids that will go qualify their college players. If their 1:20:33.360 --> 1:20:36.200 team doesn't make it to the nationals there, then they 1:20:36.200 --> 1:20:39.920 play the floorball, you know, right right, So you haven't 1:20:39.960 --> 1:20:43.800 even protected that aspect of it. But you know, that's 1:20:43.840 --> 1:20:46.600 a you know, that's a whole bag of worms that 1:20:47.040 --> 1:20:50.200 about two thousand people in the in the world care about. 1:20:50.560 --> 1:20:53.120 So yeah, yeah, we don't need to go down there 1:20:53.200 --> 1:20:56.120 at all. But I think it is worth exploring because overall, 1:20:56.160 --> 1:20:59.559 what it speaks to is, you know, the USGA is 1:20:59.560 --> 1:21:01.720 is I'm not going to say they're in crisis, But 1:21:01.760 --> 1:21:05.439 they definitely have an identity issue that they're they're they're 1:21:05.479 --> 1:21:08.120 obsessed with their brand and branding them and that's why 1:21:08.120 --> 1:21:12.040 you see their logo everywhere and and this is this 1:21:12.120 --> 1:21:13.800 is the problem. They want to be loved. And so 1:21:14.120 --> 1:21:16.160 if we get to get back to the ball issue, 1:21:17.520 --> 1:21:21.080 they they know that that won't go over well as 1:21:21.120 --> 1:21:25.719 does the RNA if they do try and introduce something. 1:21:25.920 --> 1:21:30.120 So that's that is a big issue going forward on 1:21:30.800 --> 1:21:35.240 whether we ever get something done, because they will will 1:21:35.240 --> 1:21:39.320 they act in or not acting out of fear of 1:21:39.520 --> 1:21:43.800 being vilified and hated for doing something. And that's why 1:21:43.960 --> 1:21:47.400 I but that's why I'm encouraged by the variable distance 1:21:47.479 --> 1:21:50.360 ball concept that they floated, because I think they found 1:21:50.439 --> 1:21:54.000 something which was kind of an argument a lot of 1:21:54.040 --> 1:21:58.479 us made all all along, was if you tailored balls 1:21:58.520 --> 1:22:02.080 to certain architecture and course is nobody can can argue 1:22:02.080 --> 1:22:04.960 with that. You know, go go play your your current 1:22:05.000 --> 1:22:07.040 ball at Aaron Hills. But if you want to play 1:22:07.080 --> 1:22:08.880 Pine Valley the way it was supposed to be designed, 1:22:08.920 --> 1:22:11.840 or you want to play Rancho Park UH at sixty 1:22:11.840 --> 1:22:14.800 five hundred yards the way Lee Treno played it. UH 1:22:14.920 --> 1:22:18.040 and in the Uh, in the seventies in the LA 1:22:18.160 --> 1:22:21.439 Open and really really get to to have a great, 1:22:21.520 --> 1:22:24.439 great fun test of golf. That's it's and hit some 1:22:24.479 --> 1:22:28.200 long irons and shape some shots, play the variable the 1:22:28.479 --> 1:22:31.680 twenty percent or the ten percent reduced ball here and 1:22:32.479 --> 1:22:36.479 you'll you'll, uh, you'll get your money's worth kind of thing. So, uh, 1:22:36.520 --> 1:22:38.200 it'll be very interesting to see if they're able to 1:22:38.240 --> 1:22:40.280 sell it. Uh, that's that's going to. 1:22:40.280 --> 1:22:44.640 Be the key. Why doesn't a company just start making them? 1:22:44.880 --> 1:22:47.160 Like I don't know how big the market would be, 1:22:47.200 --> 1:22:48.559 but like I would. 1:22:50.120 --> 1:22:54.760 You have I'm I'm with you. I don't I back 1:22:54.800 --> 1:22:59.400 to soft spikes. I've never understood why somebody doesn't want 1:22:59.439 --> 1:23:02.480 to be the first. And again it's all the packaging. 1:23:02.560 --> 1:23:06.040 You know, it's it's not gonna it's not gonna taint again. 1:23:06.120 --> 1:23:08.280 You know, maybe they look at things like coke and 1:23:08.360 --> 1:23:12.639 classic coke and and think, you know, there's there must 1:23:12.640 --> 1:23:16.759 be corporate business school stuff that's taught that that they've 1:23:16.840 --> 1:23:20.040 they've picked up. Because I just can't grasp why you 1:23:20.040 --> 1:23:23.120 wouldn't want to be the court the ball that that 1:23:23.320 --> 1:23:28.240 caters to somebody like you, or to Buddy Marucci's or 1:23:28.280 --> 1:23:33.000 of the world or other people who play great golf 1:23:33.040 --> 1:23:37.760 courses and who are good players. Why you wouldn't It 1:23:37.840 --> 1:23:41.320 just seems like not a complicated thing to do to 1:23:42.080 --> 1:23:45.240 appeal to that group, because they're tastemakers. Let's face it, 1:23:45.760 --> 1:23:50.719 these all these old classic golf clubs can can change things. 1:23:50.760 --> 1:23:53.519 And the saft spikes example is the perfect example of 1:23:53.560 --> 1:23:56.400 that that people are like, what are these stupid things 1:23:56.400 --> 1:24:00.000 that nobody's ever going to go away from? Spikes? Uh? 1:24:00.080 --> 1:24:03.559 And these places mandated it. They changed them out. Soft 1:24:03.600 --> 1:24:08.479 spikes became a became a verb or a noun. I'm 1:24:08.520 --> 1:24:10.479 not sure what what would that be? What it would 1:24:10.479 --> 1:24:14.839 be a uh, well, it's like Xerox, you know, instead 1:24:14.840 --> 1:24:17.840 of making photocopies, you you make a Xerox And and 1:24:19.240 --> 1:24:21.240 so I'm not sure why a company doesn't want to 1:24:21.240 --> 1:24:23.240 be that one. I mean, Bridgestone, I believe is the 1:24:23.240 --> 1:24:25.320 one that's made balls for the U. 1:24:25.320 --> 1:24:25.479 S c. 1:24:25.560 --> 1:24:28.920 A that they've tested, but they have yet to uh, 1:24:29.080 --> 1:24:32.880 they've yet to come to market with this ball. And 1:24:33.000 --> 1:24:34.760 I think it's and it's hard to get a hold 1:24:34.800 --> 1:24:39.720 of them even like they're like they're asteroids, you know, 1:24:39.760 --> 1:24:41.519 and if you look at them too long you'll lose 1:24:41.520 --> 1:24:43.360 your eyesight or something. Give me a break. 1:24:43.920 --> 1:24:45.880 I'm looking at eBay right now. You know, I'm thinking 1:24:45.920 --> 1:24:48.920 about buying some tour of biladas and taking them out 1:24:48.960 --> 1:24:50.719 for a spin next time I play someone. 1:24:50.840 --> 1:24:53.879 Yeah, you know, yeah, I've got some. I was cleaning 1:24:53.880 --> 1:24:56.280 a closet here and I got some professionals that I kept. 1:24:57.720 --> 1:24:59.280 You know, now, that was the ball where it kind 1:24:59.320 --> 1:25:03.360 of made a big first, big leap. So they're not 1:25:03.439 --> 1:25:06.040 the tour Biloada would be the one. But I don't 1:25:06.080 --> 1:25:08.160 miss the days of those where you just breathe on 1:25:08.200 --> 1:25:10.360 them and you could, you could, you know, cut. 1:25:10.120 --> 1:25:13.800 Them blade a ledge and they're done right. Oh is 1:25:13.800 --> 1:25:14.360 the market? 1:25:14.439 --> 1:25:14.599 Yeah? 1:25:14.720 --> 1:25:18.200 Signed the market forums? Rough, it's like fifty five bucks 1:25:18.200 --> 1:25:23.800 for a dozen. Unbelievable. You know what actually you know 1:25:24.600 --> 1:25:27.000 is so might have to go to some garage sales. 1:25:28.400 --> 1:25:30.920 Yeah, yeah, that's you may have to stumble on them. 1:25:31.200 --> 1:25:33.639 Now, now that we're talking about going to garage sales, 1:25:34.040 --> 1:25:37.400 I think we've we've hit our time here. So hey, 1:25:37.560 --> 1:25:42.200 I appreciate the time, And you got anything exciting coming up? 1:25:44.040 --> 1:25:46.720 I'm heading to the UK for a few days at 1:25:46.760 --> 1:25:50.160 the Scottish Open and then the Open championship and uh, 1:25:50.240 --> 1:25:53.320 I'm gonna go see the the new golf course at 1:25:53.320 --> 1:25:59.439 Turnbury and I'll probably play a late evening nine or 1:25:59.439 --> 1:26:02.559 eighteen Prestwick. So things are things are good here. I'm 1:26:02.600 --> 1:26:06.120 looking forward. I've never been to Brookdale. I just started 1:26:06.160 --> 1:26:08.040 reading about it. I know very little. All I know 1:26:08.160 --> 1:26:08.880 is people love it. 1:26:09.640 --> 1:26:10.040 Uh. 1:26:10.120 --> 1:26:12.599 They don't really know why, but people just really respond 1:26:12.640 --> 1:26:14.559 to that course. So I'm very excited to see that 1:26:14.720 --> 1:26:17.920 as a as a venue. I think it's uh, it's 1:26:17.960 --> 1:26:20.120 it should be a lot of fun and uh it's 1:26:20.120 --> 1:26:23.160 a wide open open championship. So yeah, if you have 1:26:23.160 --> 1:26:26.880 any suggestions on other other courses around that area, uh, 1:26:26.960 --> 1:26:27.920 I'm all yours. 1:26:28.439 --> 1:26:31.360 I haven't ever been, but you know, I read a lot. Yeah, 1:26:31.560 --> 1:26:34.800 I mean it's uh, it seems like there's it's like 1:26:34.880 --> 1:26:39.280 the best area in England for for golf, you know, 1:26:39.479 --> 1:26:41.360 is that brooked areas. 1:26:42.840 --> 1:26:45.479 That's the view. But right from so far from what 1:26:45.520 --> 1:26:48.320 I've seen, that area is great, but it's still really 1:26:48.360 --> 1:26:48.840 hard to beat. 1:26:48.840 --> 1:26:49.240 Scotland. 1:26:50.439 --> 1:26:51.320 Just uh, you. 1:26:51.280 --> 1:26:55.200 Should try and get out to the Swineley forests and uh. 1:26:55.000 --> 1:26:59.240 And Lley don't call it finally that you'll upset the 1:26:59.280 --> 1:27:01.200 members there you can invite it out. 1:27:02.920 --> 1:27:03.320 Walking. 1:27:06.040 --> 1:27:10.200 Yeah, it's one area that I have I have not 1:27:10.400 --> 1:27:13.760 been able to do in depth, the Heathlands area, so 1:27:15.040 --> 1:27:17.800 it's definitely a priority. It's just that London this this 1:27:17.800 --> 1:27:19.800 this year is just not a city that I want 1:27:19.880 --> 1:27:24.080 to get too close to so day anyway. But I'm 1:27:24.080 --> 1:27:26.480 looking forward to. 1:27:25.560 --> 1:27:28.800 Find a find a find a farmhouse or something, get 1:27:28.840 --> 1:27:32.000 out there and yeah, get out of the hustle and bustle, 1:27:32.120 --> 1:27:37.639 you know, absolutely all right, Well, Jeff, thanks, thanks so much, 1:27:37.680 --> 1:27:41.519 and uh well we'll talk soon, all right. 1:27:41.560 --> 1:28:04.840 Thanks