1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newtsworld. Last night on PBS was 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: the premiere of the new extraordinary documentary about Hemingway, a 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: film by Ken Burns and Lennon Oft. The documentary covers 4 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: Hemingway's entire life in six hours over three nights. Part 5 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: one is entitled A Writer and covers eighteen ninety nine 6 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: to nineteen twenty nine Hemingway's childhood, early youth, and life 7 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: as a young man in the World War One Red 8 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: Cross Ambulance Service, two marriages and two children. I'm looking 9 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: forward to watching Part two tonight at eight pm. The 10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: Avatar from nineteen twenty nine to nineteen forty four, and 11 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: then part three on Wednesday night at eight pm A 12 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: Blank Page from nineteen forty four to nineteen sixty one. 13 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: It's hard to imagine what the filmmakers go through when 14 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: taking on a subject like Hemingway. His largeness of life 15 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: is bravado and spirit. How do you capture the nature 16 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: of the and the myth the writer revealed in six hours? Well, 17 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,119 Speaker 1: I'm really pleased to welcome my two guests today, who 18 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: will describe the process they went through in researching, writing, 19 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: and filming this extraordinary biography. Lenovic who directed the film, 20 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: and Sarah Botstein, who produced the film along with Ken 21 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: Burns Lennon. Sarah, welcome, and I should mention to our 22 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: listeners that if they happen to miss part one of 23 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: Hemingway last night, they can watch it on the PBS 24 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: app or by going to PBS dot org slash Hemingway, 25 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: and they can watch it online before we get to Hemingway. 26 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: As excited as I am about that, tell me about 27 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: your partnership. I understand you've been working together at Florentine 28 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: Films since nineteen ninety seven. That's an amazing run. Yes, 29 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: this is Lynn and Sarah and I have worked together 30 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: with Ken and our writer Jeff Ward and an incredible 31 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: team of producers and editors since Sarah came in nineteen 32 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: ninety seven. I came to Florentine Films in nineteen eighty 33 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: nine when Ken was finishing his Civil War series, and 34 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: we've had just an incredible experience of learning about subjects 35 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: as far arranging as jazz prohibition, the Second World War, 36 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: and now Hemingway and Vietnam War. I actually forget that. 37 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: So we throw ourselves into these subjects sort of headlong. 38 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: Their long term research and production efforts. So we get 39 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: to know the people, we get to know the historians, 40 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: and we enter into worlds that we would never have 41 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 1: access to. And it's been an incredible privilege to do 42 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 1: it together with Sarah. So I'm curious. Because of your 43 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: prestige and because of the extraordinary achievements, you could cover 44 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: almost anything. So why of all the things you could 45 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: have picked, why go to Hemingway. I have personally been 46 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: fascinated by and kind of obsessed with Hemmingway since I 47 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: was in high school, and that was in the nineteen 48 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: seventies when I first discovered The Sun Also Rises in 49 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,239 Speaker 1: school and then read a Farewell to arms on many 50 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: of the short stories as a young adult and found, 51 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: like many people, his life and his work completely fascinating. 52 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: And in the mid nineties I went to Key West 53 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: on vacation and went to his home and saw the 54 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: room where he worked and really felt an epiphany of 55 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: if we're looking for iconic American subjects and important stories 56 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: to tell, how could we not do Hemingway. And I 57 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: went back to Walpole and talked to Ken Burns and 58 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: Jeff Ward about it, and they said, yeah, Hemingway's great. 59 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: We've sort of thought about it before, let's think about 60 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: it it's more And we thought about it and thought 61 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: about it, and it took us a while to get 62 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: there because of other projects we were working on. And 63 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: finally in around well when we were working on our 64 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: Vietnam series, Ken and Jeff and Sarah and I decided, yes, 65 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: we're going to do Hemingway. It's time to tell this story. Well, 66 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: you know, it's amazing and I think a tribute to 67 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: the prestige that you bring to documentaries that the voices 68 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: you had for Hemingway and his four was I mean, 69 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: Jeff Daniels, Meryl Streep, Carrie Russell, Mary Louise Parker, Patricia Clarkson. 70 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: That's really quite a group. How hard was it to 71 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: draw them together? Just to say? I mean? It is. 72 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: One of our favorite aspects of our work is to 73 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: find actors to read well known and lesser known important 74 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: people in our history. And this film certainly has a 75 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: great cast. Jeff Daniels inhabits Hemingway in such a miraculous way. 76 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: He not only reads the works of Hemingway, but all 77 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: of Hemingway's personal letters, and he's Hemingway young and Hemingway old. Hemingway, sad, Hemingway, 78 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: angry Hemingway in every iteration, and he's truly, truly brilliant. 79 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: So you know, we thought of him for many, many reasons, 80 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: and you know, obviously he's also from that part of 81 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: the country, and that wasn't why we chose him, but 82 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: it was a happy coincidence, and I think he did 83 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: bring some understanding of where and how Hemingway grew up 84 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: in his reading. And then Meryl Streep and Ken have 85 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 1: gotten to be friends over the years, and she was 86 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: an extraordinary Eleanor Roosevelt in the series that he did 87 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: a few years ago, and I think whenever we can, 88 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 1: we jump at the chance to work with her. And 89 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 1: she actually recorded Martha Gellhorn during COVID all alone in 90 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: Los Angeles we weren't able to be there because of COVID, 91 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 1: and just did a miraculous job bringing her to life. 92 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 1: And then Lynn and I had, I mean, one of 93 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 1: the most fun three days working with Carrie Russell and 94 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: Patricia Clarkson and Mary Louise Parker. Each of Hemingway's wives 95 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 1: were different, strong, independent, interesting women, and all of those 96 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: actors brought something to the women and we feel very 97 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 1: very lucky to have worked with them in terms of 98 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: giving it a sense of reality. You were actually able 99 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: to film in Hemingway's home in Cuba. How did that 100 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: come about? Well, we were very lucky in that there's 101 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: a foundation. The home is called the Think of Ahia, 102 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 1: and the Think of Ahia Foundation, which is based in 103 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: the US, is dedicated you're preserving that incredible place, and 104 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: so they helped us to make contacts in Cuba with 105 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: the government agency that runs it, because the home belongs 106 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: to the people of Cuba, and so we were given 107 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: permission to go into the house to scout and then 108 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: to film for several days. The curators really want to 109 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 1: share the story of this place and Himingway's life there 110 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,799 Speaker 1: and what you can glean about him from being there. 111 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: And as tourists, if you go to Cuba, you can't 112 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: go inside the house. You can just look in the windows. 113 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 1: We were able to go inside with our lights and 114 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: our camera crew for several days and nights and really 115 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: inhabit that place, and it is remarkable. You know, It's 116 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: as if you went out to go get a cup 117 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: of coffee from where you live right now and you 118 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 1: just never came back. Everything that you left in your 119 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: house would be there. You know, your toothbrush and your 120 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: cell phone, and you know your shoes. I mean literally 121 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: everything he had is there, from the newspaper he was reading, 122 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: to his toothbrush, everything, And so when you walk in, 123 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 1: it's like he just left. Was he warned or did 124 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: he just have an instinct that the time had come? 125 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: It was over several months he was warned. Ultimately, Castro 126 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: came to power and he sort of thought maybe he 127 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: might be able to stay there and kind of just 128 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: be a neutral party. And the pressure became too intense 129 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: anti American sentiment, and also our government wanted him out 130 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: of there. They had bought a home in Idaho as 131 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: a kind of a safety valve, and they went there, 132 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: but they didn't know they weren't going to be able 133 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: to go back to Cuba. So after the Bay of Pigs, 134 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: he never went back again. We must have been a 135 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: great quest to him, because I think he truly loved 136 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: being there and he loved the Caribbean. Now, you also 137 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: got permission from the Hemingway family to film the original manuscripts, 138 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: which are at the JFK Library. In one way does 139 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: showing the original manuscript enhanced the story. It's amazing that 140 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: Hemingway kept every version of so many of his great works, 141 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: and he was so fastidious, enormously disciplined, and would go 142 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: over and over both with his written hand and the 143 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: typewriter and change commas words, semicolon's, names of characters, titles 144 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: of works, and all of those are kept in very pristine, 145 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: beautiful condition at the Kennedy Library. And there are high 146 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: resolution scans and lower resolution scans that academics and people 147 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: interested in Hemingway can access and go see. And at 148 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: one point we thought, maybe we don't need to film 149 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: the original manuscripts. We can just use the scans, and 150 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: that's fine. But we went there just as we were 151 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: about to finish filming, and we were trying to decide 152 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: whether we should do it or not. And I remember 153 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: the sensation of being given the folder and opening his 154 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: actual pencil of the Farewell to Arms, and calling Lynn 155 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: and calling Kennon saying, you know, it's a little bit 156 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: like being in a museum and actually seeing the work 157 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: of art, or being in a concert hall and hearing 158 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: the piece of music, or looking at the actual sculpture. 159 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,839 Speaker 1: There is something truly magical to it, and we brought 160 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: our cameras in about a week later and spent a 161 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: couple of days just reveling in the fact that we 162 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 1: could show these documents in their original quality, and the 163 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: pencil feels different and the paper looks different, and it's 164 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: pretty amazing. It's remarkable to think of all that being 165 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: done with a pencil. Yeah, those of us are now 166 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: living an age when we'll be a very hard put 167 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: to be able to write that will. Your story reminded 168 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: me of a good friend of mine, Daniel Silva, who's 169 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: a novelist, who was down in the basement of the 170 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: Vatican Museum where he had written some things about mysteries 171 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: in the Vatican, and they liked him. At one point, 172 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: a guy turns to him and says, here, hold this 173 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: for a second. And he's holding this unfinished painting, and 174 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:51,959 Speaker 1: he said, what is this? He said, Oh, it's a 175 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: Da Vinci, he said. The sense he had of not 176 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: dropping it exactly. One of the things that makes Hemingway 177 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:27,439 Speaker 1: in a way timeless, I think, is that he creates 178 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: this mythology about himself. There's some historic Hemingway hidden in 179 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: there somewhere, but there's also somebody who it seems to 180 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: me is virtually for his entire life self promoting and 181 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: trying to have you believe in a hemingway he would 182 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: like to believe him. Did you find that kind of 183 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: tricky to go through and distinguish which Hemingway you were 184 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: dealing with? You know, in a way, that's part of 185 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: him too, right. So one of the first things you'll 186 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: hear in the film is one of our interview experts saying, 187 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: I hate the myth of Hemingway. The myth of Hemingway 188 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: obscures the man. And it's absolutely right. And as you said, 189 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,959 Speaker 1: he did that himself because he wanted to keep part 190 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: of himself private and not lay himself bare all the time. 191 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: And he also was a great self marketer. He understood 192 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: very well that this persona that he created sold a 193 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: lot of books, and he was very very famous for 194 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 1: being a great artist, but also for all his public escapades. 195 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: In making the film, he wanted to show that was 196 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: part of him and that he created it, and that 197 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,439 Speaker 1: it kind of imprisoned him after a while and maybe 198 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: gotten the way of us seeing his art, and also 199 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: in a way led back into his work at some 200 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: points in not very salubrious ways, you know, So some 201 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: of his works that are not perhaps the greatest, maybe 202 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: are just infected by this macho persona on the printed 203 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: page rather than the deeper, more vulnerable, complicated characters that 204 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: he does so beautifully at other points in his life. 205 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: I get the impression everyone's well, he drifts into commercialism, 206 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: and he writes in order to get paid so he 207 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: can sustain the myth, which then allows him to write 208 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: so he can get paid. And then occasionally, even late 209 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: in life, he suddenly breaks off and does something like 210 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,599 Speaker 1: The Old Man on the Sea, And it's a totally 211 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: different experience and in a way, a totally different Hemingway. Yeah, 212 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: you had the privilege of interviewing Hemingway's only surviving son, Patrick, 213 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: Did that give you a different feel for Hemingway? Very much? So? 214 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 1: It gives you chills when someone says, my dad always 215 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: used to say his dad happens to be in Earnest Hemingway. 216 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,959 Speaker 1: And yet here's Patrick in front of us, a very human, relatable, 217 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: down to earth person, and he was eighty five when 218 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: Sarah and I first met him. He's now in his 219 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: early nineties, very much with us, and his father is 220 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: a vivid character to him, but also a complicated character, 221 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: and he's not shy about revealing some of the really 222 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: deep and devastating family conflict that they experience. But he 223 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: also is very generous in sharing what a wonderful childhood 224 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 1: he had and how much he loves his father, and 225 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: how sad he was that they became sort of a 226 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: strange at the end of Hemingway's life. So where he 227 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: is in his life, or where he was when we 228 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: first started talking with him, was that he wanted the 229 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: world to see an honest portrait of Ernest Hemingway, you know, 230 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 1: And he said often he trusted us to tell a 231 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: story that would be fair and true and let the 232 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: chips fall where they may. And that's a very generous 233 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: thing for him, knowing all the laws that Hemingway had, 234 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,959 Speaker 1: and he knows that as well as anyone to be 235 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: willing and eager to have that story told. So long 236 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: as and we made this right there from the beginning, 237 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: we were interested in Hemingway because of his art, so 238 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: centering the film on his work, you know, that's what 239 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: was important to Patrick too. Well, Yeah, it's interesting because 240 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 1: Hemingway himself had wrote all you have to do is 241 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: write one true sentence, right, the truest sentence that you know, 242 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 1: and then go from there. And that sense, I think 243 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: Hemingway would probably take some comfort in the idea that 244 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 1: you were trying to find the true Hemmingway and not 245 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: just fall for whatever. The mythology this year is you 246 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: have a Hemmingway esque voyage that you guys have taken. 247 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: I think that's true, and Patrick wanted to help us 248 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:18,719 Speaker 1: on that journey. I was really surprised to sign on 249 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: my own ignorance, I guess, but I had no idea 250 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: how challenging Hemmingway found finishing of Farewell to Arms, and 251 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: the fact that apparently he thought he had written thirty 252 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: nine different endings, but apparently you all discovered that if 253 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: you go and look at the material at the Kennedy Library, 254 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: there were forty seven different endings. That's really an extraordinary 255 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: period of agony to sit there and say, well, this 256 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: isn't quite right. Let me go at it again. You know, 257 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: I've written a fair amount of my life, but I 258 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: can't quite imagine the intensity of that kind of a commitment. 259 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: When you look at that Matreal would have been a 260 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: significantly different book had he picked one of the other endings, well, 261 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: in one of the endings, the baby survived, so he experimented. 262 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: And what's interesting is that he had to try it 263 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: out on the page, not just in his head, you know, 264 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: write it down, and the description of the baby's fine, 265 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: so sorry about Catherine, you know, that sort of took 266 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: him down a rabbit hole that didn't go where he 267 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: wanted to go. But he had to try it out. 268 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: And some of the endings are frankly kind of modeling, 269 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: some of them are overwritten, some of them are kind 270 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: of ridiculous, and then he hits on the perfect one. 271 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: So I'd love the fact that he agonized so much. 272 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: I wonder whether I'm sure he poured his heart and 273 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: soul into everything he ever wrote, but this was I 274 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: think in some way he knew this was going to 275 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: be big, that was going to be epic, that was 276 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: going to really make his reputation, and so he self 277 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: imposed pressure, perhaps, but also kind of an artistic exigency 278 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: to get this right and not to let it go 279 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: until he was really satisfied. And that's so beautiful, you know, 280 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: has struck me that it is in a very real 281 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: sense the sheer impact both as a literary event, and 282 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: as a popular book of the Sun Also Rises also 283 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: became a burden because now you got to figure out 284 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: what am I going to do to stay not necessarily 285 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: to be transcendent, but what do I do to to 286 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: stay in the same league as this book, which is 287 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: one of the transformative American novels of the twentieth century. 288 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: That must have been in his head a great deal 289 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: at the time. I can't now slide back into mediocrity 290 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: and have been a one novel writer. But did you 291 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: get that sense when you look at his material? Oh definitely. 292 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: I mean I think early success is hard for anyone, 293 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: daunting for anyone, and he had early success obviously with 294 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: some of the short stories, and then with The Sun 295 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: Also Rises, which, as you say, as transformative looking at 296 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: a generation lost in different you know, the world has 297 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: blown up, and I think he knew that a lot 298 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: was writing on a farewell to arms, and it's an 299 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: extraordinary book that we will withstand the task of time, 300 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: no question in my mind. You know, in the age 301 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 1: of COVID and Fentonel and all these things, it would 302 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: be nice to have a new Hemmingway who could somehow 303 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: capture for us the experience that makes sense out of it, 304 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: which is what he does for The Sun Also Rises. 305 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: We were talking earlier about the book Everybody Who Heads Badly, 306 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: which I think is a terrific book. Leslie Bloom, Yeah, 307 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 1: terrific book. I recommended what I'm tragued with when you 308 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: look at all of that is was at the moment 309 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: was an entire population that sort of was waiting for 310 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 1: somebody like Hemming to capture for them their own thoughts. 311 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: And it's a combination of the topics but also of 312 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: this new writing style which cuts through what had been 313 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,479 Speaker 1: the classic American literature genre to that point, when you 314 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: look back on that, are you surprised at how gigantic 315 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: an impact it had. It's hard to say, because I 316 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: can't imagine American literature or the literature of World War 317 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: One without The Sun Also Arises. It is so important, 318 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: and yet it's not even directly about the war. It's 319 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: about the generation, like Sarah was saying, and how people 320 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: were damaged by this scale of loss and trauma that 321 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,959 Speaker 1: they had all gone through, and how do you keep 322 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 1: on living, how do you keep on finding meaning in life? 323 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: And it's such an unusual way to approach it for 324 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 1: that time. I think it's very idiosyncratic. It's very particular 325 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: to the circumstances he was in and the people he knew, 326 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: and the things he saw and what he was interested in, 327 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: So it's hard to even imagine. I think it had 328 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: a huge impact on life, that's for sure. And it 329 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 1: also was a way that he showed and Leslie Bloom 330 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: shows this so beautifully in her book. He was willing 331 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: and eager to use anything and everything at his disposal 332 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,199 Speaker 1: to tell the story he wanted to tell, even at 333 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: the expense of people who had really helped him and 334 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: good friends that he portrayed in the book and not 335 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: terribly positive light, especially Harold Loebe, who was a good 336 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: friend of his and had helped him in his career 337 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: and then was portrayed in the novel as Robert Cohne, 338 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,199 Speaker 1: who's sort of the anti hero or the villain of 339 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: the story in a lot of ways. And so Hemmingway 340 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 1: didn't care. He wanted to tell his story and he 341 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: would take whatever he could around him to make great literature. 342 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: And there was a price to pay for that. In 343 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: that sense, I got the impression that he was a 344 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 1: dangerous friend, very much so, very interesting, very exciting, but 345 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 1: also like being next to a lion. He could bite 346 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: you at any moment, and he was driven by Hemingway. 347 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: He wasn't driven very externally in that sense. The other 348 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: part of that, though, is that Hemingway also, it seems 349 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: to me and I'd be curious because you have been 350 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: so immersed in this the clean, simple, short narrative model 351 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: that he develops, where the sentences are easy to understand, 352 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: there's a driving momentum sort of paves the way for 353 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: des She'll Hammett and others. So you get an inter 354 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: American genre of a kind of clean storytelling that's profoundly 355 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 1: different from what went before. Does that fit as you 356 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: look at his impact on writing and his impact on 357 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: would be authors of the future. We did a series 358 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 1: of conversations about Hemingway, the different experts and writers and 359 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: people who had perspective, And one of the people who 360 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 1: joined us was Rachel Kushner, who's a novelist in la 361 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: in her forties or fifties, and to read her you 362 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: might not necessarily see the echoes of Hemingway per se. 363 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: And she said she thought her generation wasn't directly influenced 364 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: by Hemingway, but they were influenced by the generation that 365 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: came before that was directly influenced by Hemingway. In a sense, 366 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: his fingerprints or his DNA is passing through many generations removed. 367 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: And I think someone writing a hundred years from now 368 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: will be influenced by Hemingway, but they may not really 369 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 1: realize it. It's unavoidable. Even with six Hours, which is 370 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: a remarkable documentary built around one person, you must have 371 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: left really interesting things on the cutting floor. I guess nowadays, 372 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: with digits, we don't actually cut anything anymore. This is 373 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 1: a leftover from the age of film. But I'm curious, 374 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: what do you think is the biggest thing you regret 375 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: not having been able to include? What a good question. 376 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: I mean, we always say that the stuff that's on 377 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: the cutting room floor, virtual or not, is never bad stuff. 378 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 1: It's just I mean, Kenna's famous for saying this, it's 379 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 1: too many notes. It's just one too many threads for 380 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 1: our audience to follow. You know. One of the challenges 381 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,400 Speaker 1: of the film, I would say, is that so much 382 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: of Hemingway's greatest work was done in the first decade 383 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 1: of his writing career. I would say from his early 384 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,640 Speaker 1: time in Paris, the Farewell to Arms, or even into 385 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: the early thirties, and so we could have made six 386 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 1: hours just on that, because there's so much to explore, 387 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: and so in particular the short stories his first great 388 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: burst of short stories, and those are often overlooked because 389 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: the novels. We tend to value novels over short stories 390 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 1: as markers of literary genius or whatever. But there are 391 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: many short stories that we were not able to delve 392 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: into as deeply. In particular, I have my favorite, which 393 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 1: is Soldiers Home, which I think is an extraordinary work 394 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: about a young man coming home from World War One 395 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:36,400 Speaker 1: and trying to reintegrate into society after all kinds of 396 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,479 Speaker 1: horrific experiences and ending up really not being able to 397 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: do that, and his family out understanding him, etc. It's 398 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 1: a beautiful story. It's very short. We don't open up 399 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: and tell you about that short story, and that I 400 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 1: wish we could have done. You may not be allowed 401 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 1: to answer this question, but I'm curious now that you 402 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: have this great achievement adding to your list of good achievements, 403 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: do you have a notion yet of what the next 404 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: one is? Oh? Yeah, Lynn, Ken, and I are making 405 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: a film about the US response to the Holocaust, looking 406 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: at what our country knew when we knew it and 407 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: what we did about it in relationship to the immigration 408 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 1: refugee crisis that we are still feeling the effects of. 409 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: So that film will come out in twenty twenty three. 410 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: It's another six hour look at that time. Ken is 411 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 1: working on many projects. Another one that I am directly 412 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: working on is a big series we're making on the 413 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:33,199 Speaker 1: American Revolution. So that's a very interesting time to be 414 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 1: doing that. And Lynn is working on a big series 415 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,199 Speaker 1: on the history of crime and punishment. Oh wow, you 416 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: mean the book or you mean the process? Now the 417 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: history of crime and punishment in America. So the book 418 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,880 Speaker 1: is a fascinating novel, but this is really going back 419 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: to the earliest European presence here up through the American 420 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,479 Speaker 1: Revolution and the penitentiary system, and then all the way 421 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 1: up to us in car sitation and beyond. I've been 422 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: over twenty years on prison reform and it's a very 423 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 1: important copy. We're grateful to you for that. And we 424 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: actually want to say Sara and I together made a 425 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: film two years ago that came out called College Behind Bars. 426 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:15,479 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've heard about it, but it 427 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: was a exploration of men and women in prison who 428 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: were enrolled in a really remarkable college program called the 429 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,360 Speaker 1: Bard Prison Initiative, so they earned college degrees and they 430 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: experience the transformative power of education. And you know, the 431 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: film opens with a class studying Moby Dick and then 432 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: it goes on from there to linear algebra and Mandarin 433 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: and advanced economics. These are incarcerated men and women from 434 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: marginalized communities who are some of our most brilliant scholars 435 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: that you can possibly imagine. So we and we very 436 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: much aware of your very important work on criminal justice reform. 437 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 1: Let me extend to both of you that as each 438 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: of these new projects comes to fruition, if you'd be 439 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: willing to come back and talk about it, we'd love 440 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: to have you come, because it's absolutely fascinating. You do 441 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: world class work, So it's all. It is a great tribute. 442 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 1: I just feel great being in your presence and knowing 443 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: how hard you to have worked and Ken's worked to 444 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: build this entire genre of material. We would love to 445 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: so thank you very very much for joining us, Thank 446 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 1: you for having us. It's been a pleasure. Thank you 447 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: so much as a great conversation. Lenovic and Sarah Botstein. 448 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining me today and I'm looking forward to 449 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 1: watching Hemingway Part two tonight at eight pm Eastern on 450 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: my local PBS station. For our listeners who missed watching 451 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: Hemingway Part one last night, you can watch it online 452 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: for free on the PBS app or by going to 453 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: PBS dot org slash Hemingway. It's an exceptional film on 454 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: Hemingway's life and I highly recommend it. Thank you to 455 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: my guests Lennovic and Sarah Botstein. You can get a 456 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 1: link to watch their new film about Hemingway on our 457 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 1: show page at newtsworld dot com. Newts World is produced 458 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: by Gingwich three sixty and iHeartMedia. Are executive producer is 459 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: Debbie Myers, our producer is Garnsey Sloan, and our researcher 460 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created 461 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 1: by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at Gingwish 462 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll 463 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 1: go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with five 464 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: stars and give us a review so others can learn 465 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: what it's all about. Right Now, Listeners of newts World 466 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 1: can sign up from my three free weekly columns at 467 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: Gingwich three sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. 468 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: This is Newtsworld.