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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I hope my stuff.

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Speaker 1: I never told you production of iHeartRadio. So we are

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Speaker 1: back with part two of when I guested on the

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Speaker 1: show Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff with markat Kiljoy,

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Speaker 1: a friend of the show. Love having her on, and

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Speaker 1: this was my first time. As I mentioned in the

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Speaker 1: previous one, I kind of warmed up in the second part.

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Speaker 1: I think because I was nervous. We get nervous listeners,

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Speaker 1: We really do all the time. Yeah, if we work

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Speaker 1: with really cool people, it's hard sometimes. This two parter

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Speaker 1: was about vaccines, and I maintain that that is a

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Speaker 1: very important thing. There's a lot going on with them

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Speaker 1: right now that we should be talking, talking about and

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Speaker 1: paying attention to. So please enjoy this episode.

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Speaker 2: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome to the show that you already know

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Speaker 3: the name of the title of because you clicked on it.

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Speaker 3: I'm your host, Marto Kiljoy, and I have a guest,

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Speaker 3: and my guest is Annie Reese.

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Speaker 2: Hey.

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Speaker 1: Anny Reese, Yes, Hello, I'm so happy to be here,

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Speaker 1: happy to be back.

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Speaker 3: Thanks on this day that's totally a different day than

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Speaker 3: the previous day. Definitely, Yeah, because this is live, people

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Speaker 3: don't know that because it's not true. But Annie Reese

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Speaker 3: is a podcaster and is the host of Saver, a

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Speaker 3: food podcast. Although now you know that it actually isn't

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Speaker 3: a different day. If it was two days from now,

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Speaker 3: I would have now listened to savor Ye because it

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Speaker 3: sounds really up my alley. But I didn't because actually

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Speaker 3: we only recorded part one about five minutes ago.

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Speaker 1: So you're revealing how the sausage gets made. I know, terrible.

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Speaker 3: It's really just giving them all the secrets. It's okay,

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Speaker 3: like the fact we have a secret producer who I've

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Speaker 3: never introduced before, never, Sophie Lichterman.

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Speaker 1: Hehy are you Sophie. I'm all right.

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Speaker 4: I lost my voice last week, so it's like slightly

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Speaker 4: scratchy still.

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Speaker 3: Any particular reason or just for fun.

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Speaker 4: I just was like, man, I don't need it anymore.

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Speaker 4: As fine, Yeah, you don't, like you don't work in audio,

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Speaker 4: so I was like, fuck it, I don't need that thing.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: It's like now these days, you get a cold and

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Speaker 3: then your voice is like slightly different for several months. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and I have a bunch of audio books I have

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Speaker 3: to record, and then I keep being like, oh, I'm

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Speaker 3: gonna put it off until my voice gets back to normal,

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Speaker 3: and then I'm like, I don't know what normal is anymore.

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Speaker 1: And recording an audiobook, I've only done one, but it's

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Speaker 1: a whole thing. It's annoying, it is, and it's like,

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Speaker 1: why don't you just for five hours not mispronounce anything?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because every time you do, you have to click

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Speaker 3: on your computer and go back.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And then you're reading the stuff you've written, and

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Speaker 1: you're like, maybe I should have I wish I had

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Speaker 1: known I had to read this aloud.

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Speaker 3: You know, but this is revealing more information about you

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Speaker 3: than I previously knew. Oh no, what was the book

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Speaker 3: that you read?

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Speaker 1: Well? Stuff I've never told you has a book?

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Speaker 3: And do you do the audiobook?

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Speaker 1: Yes, we did so Samantha McVeigh, who has been a

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Speaker 1: guest on the show before. She is my wondrous co

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Speaker 1: host and a great friend of mine. We read it together,

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Speaker 1: but foolishly we didn't realize we were going to have

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Speaker 1: to do the audiobook, and so we were sitting there

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Speaker 1: next to each other just bewildered, like, oh gosh, I

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Speaker 1: would not have written this if I had known. But

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Speaker 1: she was a great support throughout the whole thing. So

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Speaker 1: shout out to having supporter friends who help you get

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Speaker 1: through something like reading an audiobook for five hours that

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Speaker 1: can be very intense. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I always do that alone in a closet, So like,

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Speaker 3: that's pretty good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the subject matter was a little deep, so I

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Speaker 1: was like, this is yeah, yeah, yeah, but check it out.

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Speaker 1: It's good.

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Speaker 3: Well. Also, we have an audio engineer named Eva.

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Speaker 1: Hi Eva hi Eva hi Eva.

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Speaker 3: And our theme music was written for us Beyond Woman,

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Speaker 3: and this is part two about well, it's gonna be

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Speaker 3: a lot of parts about the things that the government's

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Speaker 3: trying to take away from us. And this was going

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Speaker 3: to be a glorious episode about how purely amazing the

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Speaker 3: polio vaccine is. And then it got more interesting and

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Speaker 3: fun when I found out that the person who gets

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Speaker 3: called the destroyer of polio was not that, but was

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Speaker 3: interesting and strange. And so we are telling the story

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Speaker 3: of Jonas Salk, the man who was part of a

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Speaker 3: large project and then gets whatever you've already heard me

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Speaker 3: complain about this. So he has just started to do

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Speaker 3: some flu vaccine stuff. He's not actually the one who

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Speaker 3: you know, he's not in charge of this project, but

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Speaker 3: he's part of it, and students at the university start

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Speaker 3: getting vaccinated too, and so fewer of them were getting sick.

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Speaker 3: Soon after that, they started studying how to put multiple

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Speaker 3: strains of flu into the one vaccine. But there's a

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Speaker 3: problem with this, right, If you put a whole lot

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Speaker 3: of different flu into a vaccine, it starts being like, well,

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Speaker 3: that's a lot of stuff in one shot, right, And

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Speaker 3: people started experimenting with what are called adjuvants, which is

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Speaker 3: what you can add to boost a vaccine's immunological response

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Speaker 3: without upping the viral load. It's basically stuff that's like magnifying.

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Speaker 3: It feels like a video game to me, where you're like, oh,

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Speaker 3: if you have this thing, it like works really well

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Speaker 3: with this other thing, and it like boosts the thing, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, Yeah, kind of like D and D. Yeah you

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Speaker 1: can get exactly.

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Speaker 3: Yes. I would argue that anyone who's played D and

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Speaker 3: D who's anti vax didn't play D and D. I

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Speaker 3: cannot imagine being like, you want a plus one shield

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Speaker 3: and you're like, oh no, it doesn't make you completely

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Speaker 3: safe forever, So I don't want a plus one shield,

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Speaker 3: And you're like, who are you? Why are you playing

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Speaker 3: dungeons and dragons.

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Speaker 1: I just feel like I need more of the science.

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Speaker 1: I need to do my own research, and I'm just

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Speaker 1: going to run into this battle without I don't need that.

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Speaker 1: I don't.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: You're like, all right, you went up a level. Do

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Speaker 3: you want all the new powers that come with the

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Speaker 3: upper level. I'm like, uh, that's like the way that

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Speaker 3: the man wanted the dungeon master told me to do that.

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Speaker 3: I don't. I don't trust that person.

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Speaker 1: I don't trust that at all.

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Speaker 2: All.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So, when you read about Sulk, you read about

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Speaker 3: how people loved him, but scientists hated him. And if

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Speaker 3: you read something a bit more of one of these

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Speaker 3: hagiographies as most writing about him, is the reason that

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Speaker 3: scientists hated him is they he bucked the trends. He

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Speaker 3: was a maverick who refused to play by the rules

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Speaker 3: or whatever. If you read more critical writing about him,

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Speaker 3: is that he was attention seeking, risk taking idea, taking

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Speaker 3: credit for ing, and kind of mercenary and reckless about

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Speaker 3: that mercenary part of it. He pissed off his colleagues

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Speaker 3: a lot while they're working on the flu shot because

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Speaker 3: he made a deal with a pharmaceutical company Park Davison

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Speaker 3: Company to give them exclusive vaccine information in exchange for

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Speaker 3: royalties for the sale of the vaccine. This pissed off Francis,

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Speaker 3: the person heading up the project, and they I don't

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Speaker 3: think they ever rekindle their friendship.

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Speaker 1: The bridge burned, yeah sounds like yeah.

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Speaker 3: I lose track of the number of bridges he burned.

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Speaker 3: It might be that they reconnected with this particular person later,

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Speaker 3: but I don't believe so. And it's presented as like

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Speaker 3: after that, he just wanted to be more independent in

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Speaker 3: his research, and I'm like, no, he probably got a

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Speaker 3: run out for being a capitalist dickbag. He's like, I

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Speaker 3: want to be more independent in my research. So he

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Speaker 3: moved to Pittsburgh and became the director of the Virus

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Speaker 3: Research Laboratory at the University of Pittsburgh's Medical School. This

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Speaker 3: is not a prestigious appointment. It is in a forty

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Speaker 3: by forty foot basement that is sometimes used as a

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Speaker 3: morgue when they need overflow morge space. Originally, he was

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Speaker 3: just going to work on the flu and measles and

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Speaker 3: the common cold, but he was recruited by an organization

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Speaker 3: called the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis, which is this

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Speaker 3: massive nonprofit fundraising organization. This is basically the Like Polio Group.

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Speaker 3: It was founded by FDR, the most famous polio victim

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Speaker 3: in the world, and FDR put his weight behind it,

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Speaker 3: and they ran a fundraising campaign which is actually still

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Speaker 3: around called the March of Dimes. And this started when

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Speaker 3: a bunch of Hollywood stars asked people to mail a

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Speaker 3: dime to the White House, and that you know, the

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Speaker 3: inherent thought of this, I mean, it's mostly the thing

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Speaker 3: that the government should just do anyway, But the idea

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Speaker 3: is that this would help pay for the cost of

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Speaker 3: treatment for polio patients, which basically no one could afford.

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Speaker 3: It was incredibly expensive to take care of a polio patient,

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Speaker 3: and there's no health insurance really at this point, and

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Speaker 3: like it's hard to imagine a war system than we

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Speaker 3: currently have. But that's where they were this organization. I

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Speaker 3: think eighty million people donated to this, which is like,

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Speaker 3: I don't know what the population of the US it

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Speaker 3: was in nineteen thirty whatever. I assume it's about eighty

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Speaker 3: million people. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I also am stuck in my like modern brain where

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Speaker 1: I'm like the cost of mailing a dime.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, totally like that. I guess the equivalent would

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Speaker 3: be like mailing a dollar now, which still kind of

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Speaker 3: barely works out.

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Speaker 1: Yeh. But hey, it sounds like a lot of people

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Speaker 1: got into it. I know.

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Speaker 3: Also, you're like not supposed to mail cash anymore. I

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Speaker 3: wonder when that changed.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's interesting, okay.

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Speaker 3: And so the president founded this organization, but the guy

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Speaker 3: who ran this organization, the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis,

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Speaker 3: very specifically didn't want the government to be the one

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Speaker 3: funding polio research because if the government funds medical research,

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Speaker 3: communism wins.

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Speaker 1: No, we can't have that. Let all those kids die,

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Speaker 1: you know, you know, not communism though.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And so it's about private fundraising, getting everyone

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Speaker 3: to donate. There's a word for getting everyone in the

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Speaker 3: country to donate to something. It's called taxes.

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Speaker 1: Yep, yep.

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Speaker 3: So sulk in the Pittsburgh research they're like, all right,

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Speaker 3: we're gonna fucking do this. We're gonna cure polio, or rather,

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Speaker 3: we're gonna stop polio. And there was a lot of

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Speaker 3: work involved in this, and not just like try stuff

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Speaker 3: out and see what works, but rather grunt labor of

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Speaker 3: typing a ton of different strains of polio. There's three strains,

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Speaker 3: and then within each strain there's just like a whole

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Speaker 3: bunch of types that are little sub guys. Only two

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Speaker 3: had been typed before, and it is long, slow, boring

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Speaker 3: work that kills an incredible number of monkeys and has

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Speaker 3: to be done incredibly attentively. So Sulk and his team

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Speaker 3: started killing those monkeys. That's not the way I want

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Speaker 3: to phrase it. They started doing that work. Crucially, they

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Speaker 3: are building on the work of a lot of people

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Speaker 3: before them, and the work that a lot of their

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Speaker 3: peers at other research institutions are still doing. The old

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Speaker 3: way of typing polio. The style at the time involved, Okay,

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Speaker 3: you get a lab monkey and you give it inoculations

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Speaker 3: of a known type and so then it has like

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Speaker 3: the one polio antibodies, right, And then you extract the

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Speaker 3: monkey's blood, you combine it with an unknown type of polio,

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Speaker 3: and then you inject it back into the brain of

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Speaker 3: an uninfected monkey. If the monkey doesn't get sick, then

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Speaker 3: the unknown type is similar to the type that the

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Speaker 3: inoculated monkey at antibioties against, right, Because you're like, ah, well,

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Speaker 3: it was protected against this, you know, right, folks, maybe Salk.

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Speaker 3: I'm honestly suspicious of the shit I read that talks

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Speaker 3: him up at this point and attributes various inventions to him.

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Speaker 3: He figured out that you could use mineral oil to

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Speaker 3: make a smaller amount of a virus cause a larger

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Speaker 3: antibody response. That thing I talked about earlier that I

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Speaker 3: forget the name of it, and it didn't write down

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Speaker 3: on my script the word I'd never heard before and

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Speaker 3: couldn't pronounce. By using mineral oil, Salk's team figured out

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Speaker 3: that they could reduce the number of monkeys who had

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Speaker 3: to die in order to isolate each type of polio. Previously,

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Speaker 3: each type took forty monkeys. Now they can do it

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Speaker 3: with only fifteen monkeys. That is a saving of twenty

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Speaker 3: five monkeys. And if you want to save well, I

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Speaker 3: guess it's not really time for an ad break, but

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Speaker 3: that would have been so good. Just imagine the ads

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Speaker 3: just do it early. Yeah, fuck it, here's the ads.

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Speaker 3: Save some monkeys. Save your own monkeys by spending other

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Speaker 3: monkeys lives on our goods and services. There you go,

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Speaker 3: no rules here, but not a lot. Here they go,

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Speaker 3: and we're back. So they're doing this work, and this

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Speaker 3: is like the grunt labor of making a vaccine, because

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Speaker 3: you just like have to isolate every single known type

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Speaker 3: of polio. A man named Julius Jungner was on Salk's

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Speaker 3: team and was responsible for a lot of the advancements

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Speaker 3: that Sulk essentially took credit for. Julius had worked on

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Speaker 3: the Manhattan Project, so he was familiar with his work

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Speaker 3: having a seemingly positive end to some people and a

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Speaker 3: great deal of complicated. And why I don't even see

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Speaker 3: as complicated. It as bad that we dropped nukes on

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Speaker 3: cities full of innocent people. But you know, whatever, I

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Speaker 3: can imagine during World War Two being like, we better

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Speaker 3: develop this before the Nazis do. I can see doing that, right,

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Speaker 3: you know. He worked on that, and then he moved

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Speaker 3: to the University of Pittsburgh and he developed a color

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Speaker 3: test to determine how much virus is in tissue, and

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Speaker 3: this made the whole thing go faster. He also figured

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Speaker 3: out how to grow the virus in large quantities, which

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Speaker 3: is more or less the thing that made the vaccine possible.

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Speaker 3: As best as I can understand, most of the rest

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Speaker 3: of what Sulk's team did was building on existing work

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Speaker 3: and then just doing the work. Like people were like, oh,

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Speaker 3: we got to a menapolio vaccine. These are the steps

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Speaker 3: that are necessary, right because people had already done the

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Speaker 3: how are we going to do this part? Except how

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Speaker 3: are we going to get a ton of poliovirus? So

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Speaker 3: Julius Jungner is the one who figures that out as

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Speaker 3: far as they can tell, and because you need a

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Speaker 3: ton of poliovirus if you want to inoculate the entire

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Speaker 3: country and or the entire world. He kept running up

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Speaker 3: against the scientific establishment like he would run up against

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Speaker 3: the Committee on Typing, who kept saying that like, no,

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Speaker 3: none of us want to change how we do things,

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Speaker 3: and you need to stop being different, is the way

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Speaker 3: it is often presented. Or they had legitimate reasons against

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Speaker 3: the stuff that these people were doing, but people don't

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Speaker 3: want to write about that because they want to write

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Speaker 3: about a hero. Salkin's team kind of just did it

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Speaker 3: anyway on the side, and to be fair, they were

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Speaker 3: probably right in this particular circumstance. They typed seventy four

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Speaker 3: strains of polio in a year in what was expected

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Speaker 3: to take three years, and they seem to do it right.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't like about shortcuts. It was about like finding

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Speaker 3: better systems by which to do it. And the committee

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Speaker 3: was like, all right, fine, you always all right, good enough.

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Speaker 3: Twenty thousand monkeys died to type polio and you're making

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Speaker 3: a face of the who seems.

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Speaker 1: No, Oh my gosh, twenty thousand monkeys, it's terrible.

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Speaker 2: Let me.

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Speaker 1: I know, it's interesting hearing this story now because we've

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Speaker 1: had so many developments since then, for good and for bad,

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Speaker 1: and some of them have, you know, skewed us away

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Speaker 1: from animal testing, but not always. But also I find

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Speaker 1: this whole hero story of Sock really interesting because the

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Speaker 1: parallels of what we're seeing now of the anti vax

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Speaker 1: movement is very much. It feels in line with what

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Speaker 1: he was all about, right, which is like no science

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Speaker 1: establishment for me, I'm gonna do this. And so it's

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Speaker 1: strange to have.

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Speaker 3: These He's a move fast and brain things guy.

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Speaker 1: But he was doing it four vaccines, and now we

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Speaker 1: have it against vaccines.

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Speaker 3: I know, as I'm writing this, I'm like, man, if

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Speaker 3: RFK didn't hate this guy, he'd probably love this guy exactly, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's a trip. So twenty thousand monkeys die, which is

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Speaker 3: less than it would have been without some developments that

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Speaker 3: they made. I don't know. I don't know to do

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Speaker 3: math like that. I try not to. And there were

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Speaker 3: and are three broad types of polio, types one, two,

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Speaker 3: and three, which is fairly easy to remember how many

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Speaker 3: there are. Type one is eighty percent of cases, and

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Speaker 3: then types two and three are about ten percent of

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Speaker 3: cases each. Type two is almost entirely benign, Type three

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Speaker 3: is the deadliest, and type one is the typical paralytic

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Speaker 3: one that we talked about. Fortunately for our researchers, there

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Speaker 3: just wasn't a ton of variants in polo like influenza,

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Speaker 3: so it was a very good candidate for vaccines. When

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Speaker 3: people started growing polio on purpose, they grew it in

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Speaker 3: the nervous systems of human fetuses, dead ones in the

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Speaker 3: nineteen thirties. By nineteen forty nine, some folks in Boston

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Speaker 3: managed to grow it onto other human tissue like skin

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Speaker 3: and muscle and kidney, and that got other people the

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Speaker 3: Nobel Prize in nineteen fifty four. People are like, how

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Speaker 3: come Salk never got a Nobel Prize? But this is

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Speaker 3: the only Nobel Prize for polio that happened is that

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Speaker 3: people figure how to grow it on different tissue, and

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Speaker 3: Sauk was like, all right, that's a good idea, and

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Speaker 3: so he grew it in monkey tissue, a mix of

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Speaker 3: ten's and kidneys. This might have been the part that

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00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,720
Speaker 3: was Yugner's idea. That's my combining two different sources to

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00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:11,080
Speaker 3: come of my own conjecture. Now they can bulk make polio,

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Speaker 3: and they understand the types of polio, and so it's

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Speaker 3: just time to start doing it. They pick the most

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Speaker 3: antibody producing strains of each type of polio and not coincidentally,

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Speaker 3: also the most dangerous, and then they use formaldehyde to

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Speaker 3: quote unquote kill the virus. More technically, this inactivates the virus.

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Speaker 3: Sulk was fantastically good at science communication. This is maybe

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Speaker 3: the one thing you can't really take away from him.

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Speaker 3: He was good at explaining ideas to a broad audience.

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Speaker 3: Which is funny though, because then I read a whole

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Speaker 3: bunch of excerpts of one of his later biophilosophy books,

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Speaker 3: and I'm like, no, this is incredibly badly written. Like

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Speaker 3: it is like comically badly written.

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Speaker 1: You think people were just talking him up? Or was

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Speaker 1: it like a thing of the time.

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Speaker 3: I think he was good on camera, and his biophilosophy

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Speaker 3: books are later he basically win, that's out right. He's

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Speaker 3: like high on his own supply, and he's like, I

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Speaker 3: can do whatever I want. I'm a biophilosopher now. And

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Speaker 3: people are like, what is that? And he's like, let

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Speaker 3: me tell you, and they're like, I wish I had

358
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Speaker 3: never asked. I'm so sorry. He spent more and more

359
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Speaker 3: time in the limelight, talking to newspapers and radio audiences

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Speaker 3: and bringing photographers into the lab, which is no longer

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Speaker 3: a forty by forty basement, it is several floors and

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Speaker 3: thousands of square feet. June nineteen fifty two was the

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Speaker 3: worst outbreak of polio and human history so far. I

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00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:31,600
Speaker 3: would have just said in human history. But you know,

365
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Speaker 3: we have the future to look forward to now, and

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Speaker 3: Sulk has something of a vaccine in the works, so

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00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:43,760
Speaker 3: they started limited testing. So he headed on out to

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Speaker 3: the DT Watson Home for Crippled Children to test the

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Speaker 3: vaccine on polio victims. This time parents were asked for consent.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think he's just kids for consent, But

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Speaker 3: you know, at least progress is being made. Along consent lines.

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Speaker 3: The kids would not be helped in any way by this, because,

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Speaker 3: like if you test a vaccine on people who've never

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Speaker 3: gotten the disease, at least if it works, they are

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Speaker 3: now vaccinated, right, But these kids have already gotten polio.

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Speaker 3: It is a good way to test for antibodies and

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Speaker 3: side effects, and it's basically the kids like helping science

378
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Speaker 3: at some risk to themselves, but not great risk to themselves.

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Speaker 3: No one had adverse effects, and all of them got

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00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 3: more antibodies. So then he tested on crippled children without polio.

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Speaker 3: This is the way it was phrased at the time,

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Speaker 3: and this sounds awful, but it makes some sense. If

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Speaker 3: you test this on someone who's already not able to

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Speaker 3: use their limbs, if they accidentally get polio, they're less

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Speaker 3: likely to get worse than they already are. This could

386
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Speaker 3: still kill them, though all twenty seven in the second

387
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:59,720
Speaker 3: trial were fine. Then they tested the kid's blood on

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00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 3: more than kidney cells and that worked too. Then he

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00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 3: worked on sixty three kids with mental disabilities, which the

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00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 3: justification that salkas is that they are already isolated from

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Speaker 3: society and illness, so they haven't been as exposed to illness,

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Speaker 3: so they're a blank slate and they have a lot

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Speaker 3: of health records. Not all of these kids have parents

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Speaker 3: who could consent, but don't worry. The state's Department of

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Speaker 3: Welfare provided that consent.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm a little worried.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I'm worried to and to be fair and

398
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,479
Speaker 3: or this is what the people who write really glowing

399
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,199
Speaker 3: things about him say. He worried like hell as he

400
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Speaker 3: did this. He said of doing these trials. Quote, when

401
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 3: you inoculate children with a polio vaccine for the first time,

402
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 3: you don't sleep well for two or three weeks. And

403
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,800
Speaker 3: like he probably said that, and he probably meant it.

404
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 3: Like everything I've read about him, he is aware of

405
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Speaker 3: the human impacts of what he's doing and sees it

406
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,200
Speaker 3: as a greater good thing. But he's not callous about it,

407
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 3: you know. Yeah, he's maybe a little bit cavalier.

408
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 1: He sounds like a I'm trying to wrap my mind around.

409
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 1: He feels like the science version of Oh, I want

410
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Speaker 1: to be remembered. I want to do this great thing totally.

411
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Speaker 1: I want to be known for this in the history books.

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Speaker 3: He talks about that shit constantly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he has that vibe, which can be very I

414
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,160
Speaker 1: don't care how many monkeys have to die. I'm many

415
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 1: kids I have to experiment on. But at the same time,

416
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Speaker 1: it also sounds like it wasn't all about I just

417
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 1: want to be remembered. He actually did want to get

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Speaker 1: to this vaccine.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

420
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Speaker 3: I think at the end of the day, his goal

421
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,640
Speaker 3: was to cure polio, not to become rich and famous, like.

422
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Speaker 1: Which makes it all the more complicated.

423
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and like, this is what it took to

424
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Speaker 3: save so many millions of children's lives.

425
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Speaker 2: You know.

426
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 3: This doesn't mean that was the way that it should

427
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 3: have been done or had to have been done, but

428
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 3: it is the way that it was done. Right in

429
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 3: the children's hospitals, he had incredible bedside manner. He would

430
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 3: laugh at the kids, he would talk through their fears,

431
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 3: he would answer questions. And I think this does matter

432
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Speaker 3: because part of the evil dystopia of like doctor's non

433
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Speaker 3: consent whatever is the like they're just gonna ignore you.

434
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:39,959
Speaker 3: You're just there, You're just meet you know, I said earlier,

435
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 3: this is the style of how it's done. At the time.

436
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 3: When he presented his findings in nineteen fifty three to

437
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 3: the committee, on immunization. They were like, you did fucking what?

438
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: Hold up?

439
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then the whole thing leaked to the press,

440
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 3: and I wouldn't Maybe so someone does know and has

441
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 3: written about who leaked it to the press. I don't know.

442
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,160
Speaker 3: I leaned towards this man leaking it towards the press.

443
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 3: I did not lean towards that when I wrote this script,

444
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 3: but I like, as I learned more, the whole thing

445
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 3: leaked to the press, that the polio vaccine was almost ready.

446
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,400
Speaker 3: It didn't leak to the press like testing on children.

447
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 3: It was hey, we think we have a polio vaccine,

448
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 3: which is true. They did think they had a poliovaccine

449
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 3: because they did have a polio vaccine. So we talked

450
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 3: to the press and he was like, hey, I'm actually

451
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 3: just cautiously optimistic, and the press was like, hooray, we're saved.

452
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 3: And they called it the Salk vaccine, and he was like,

453
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 3: please don't call it that. But I don't know whether

454
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 3: he was actually like please don't call it that, or

455
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 3: if he was like, oh no, please don't call it

456
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,439
Speaker 3: the Sulk vaccine. My middle name, by the way, is Edward.

457
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 3: You know, Like, I just don't write, and people are

458
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 3: mad at him in the scientific world, and Jonas E.

459
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 3: Salk is getting called Jonas E. Christ by the people

460
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 3: who are mad at him.

461
00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: Interesting.

462
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 3: Some reports say he hated the public life, some say

463
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 3: he reveled in it. I don't fucking know.

464
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: Jonahs E. Christ.

465
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 3: I know which is funny because actually when he was

466
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 3: a little kid and he kept talking about He's gonna

467
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 3: save everyone, people used to call him like something like

468
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,919
Speaker 3: Jonas Christ or something like that, and it's like a

469
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 3: really funny nickname to give a Jewish kid too, you know.

470
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: Right, yes, pretty good. And then he got the added

471
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 1: middle name that was given to you.

472
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

473
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 1: At this point, totally wonderful father in law.

474
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 3: So at this point the figure they might be ready

475
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,439
Speaker 3: for broader trials. The public needs this vaccine, and there

476
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 3: are two groups that are opposed to this public trial.

477
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 3: One had a point, the people who support his direct competitor,

478
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 3: Albert Sabin, who was convinced that the dead virus vaccine

479
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 3: is dangerous. Saulk was using the most virulent type one strain,

480
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 3: so if any remain active formaldehyde didn't kill at all,

481
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 3: the patient would die, and formaldehyde inactivation was not particularly

482
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 3: well studied at this time, and there was no evidence

483
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 3: that the dead virus approach would lead to lasting immunity.

484
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 3: Sabin was pushing for a live virus oral vaccine, but

485
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 3: that comes later, and then you've got early anti vaxers.

486
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 1: Woo.

487
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 3: A celebrity entertainment journalist, a podcaster of his day was

488
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 3: this guy, Walter Winshell. Apparently he's one of the originators

489
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 3: of the news entertainment in radio and TV, and he

490
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,239
Speaker 3: stirred up mass hysteria about how the vaccine was going

491
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 3: to kill all the school children. In response to this,

492
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 3: Sock was like, I just vaccinated myself and all my children,

493
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 3: which is true. And so in nineteen fifty four they

494
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 3: have the first big clinical trial. It is the largest

495
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 3: clinical trial in history up to that point in the US.

496
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 3: One point five million kids were in the test. Six

497
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 3: hundred thousand of them got the vaccine. It was a

498
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 3: series of three shots and the trial was a massive success.

499
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 3: And here's a chunk of like the thousands and thousands

500
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 3: of people left out of this story who did a

501
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 3: ton of work, is that coordinating this thing was a

502
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,479
Speaker 3: public health undertaking on an incredible level because you were

503
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 3: tracking all of those one point five million people and

504
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,479
Speaker 3: you're doing it like more or less before computers, Like

505
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 3: people did a lot of work.

506
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and for three shots. Oh gosh.

507
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

508
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 3: I think it's like one shot and then a month later,

509
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 3: and then there's one shot a week later and then

510
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 3: a month later.

511
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

512
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 3: I think the most accurate headline I saw about this

513
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 3: was from an obituary of Sulk that this isn't the

514
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 3: polio vaccine that eradicated polio, but it was the polio

515
00:28:54,320 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 3: vaccine that quote turned the tide against polio. Jonas Salk

516
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 3: gave this big speech in nineteen fifty five when they

517
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 3: announced the test results that it worked, the vaccine worked,

518
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 3: we were going to stop polio. He thanked a ton

519
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 3: of people. He did not think his team or anyone

520
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 3: on it.

521
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: What are god interesting?

522
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 3: Ah huh. They all left crying.

523
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,239
Speaker 4: Oh that's sad. He got up there and he was like,

524
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 4: you're welcome.

525
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 3: It was all me, Yeah, totally.

526
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: And you keep waiting for your name, you know, or

527
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: some kind of recognition.

528
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, this person usually working side by side with who's

529
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 3: like kind of already taking credit for your work, and

530
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 3: you're like, ah, but now he's going to say my name.

531
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: At least finally yeah, right, never.

532
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 3: Comes Youngner, the guy who had actually invented a lot

533
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,719
Speaker 3: of the important shit said about this moment quote. People

534
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 3: really held it against him that he had grand standard

535
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 3: like that and really done the most uncollegial thing thing

536
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 3: that you can imagine. Jonas Salk, for his part, never

537
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 3: apologized for this and only spoke with Younger again once

538
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 3: in their lives.

539
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: Do we know how this meeting went?

540
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 3: I don't. I wish I did. Younger like later was

541
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 3: like I mean, he would say all kinds of shit

542
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 3: about what had happened, but he would still also kind

543
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 3: of a team player where he didn't try and tear

544
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 3: down the vaccine and even Younger's coming out of this

545
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 3: looking good. Younger had even more damning stuff to say

546
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 3: about Salk, though, when you read about the incidents of

547
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 3: vaccines mishaps right, which are like things that fuel anti

548
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 3: vACC sentiment today. There was something called the Cutter incident.

549
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 3: There was a pharmaceutical company called Cutter. Because we live

550
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 3: in this weird country where everything has to be done

551
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 3: through all these private corporations, there's a bunch of different

552
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 3: companies doing the vaccines right, and so the Salk vaccine

553
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 3: is made by a lot of different places, and this

554
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 3: one pharmaceutical company, Cutter, wasn't in apt activating the virus. Effectively,

555
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 3: this killed eleven people because it caused I don't know

556
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 3: the numbers in front of me anymore, about a thousand

557
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 3: people to get polio. Younger had seen the problems at

558
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 3: the Cutter Laboratories factory and told Sulk about them, and

559
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 3: then Sulk, as far as Younger can tell, didn't do

560
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 3: anything about it, because that still happened. It's still like

561
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 3: went forward and people got the Cutter vaccine and people died.

562
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 3: And then in an interview, Sulk went on, I think

563
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 3: it was TV and he was like, you know, I

564
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 3: wouldn't pat in this vaccine because quote, how can you

565
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 3: pat in the sun? What a guy? Right? Well, sure,

566
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 3: it turns out he and his team had been looking

567
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 3: into patenting it, but their attorney told them they didn't

568
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 3: have a chance in hell of successfully pattenting it because

569
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 3: it was built on prior work, it was not a

570
00:31:59,600 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 3: new and.

571
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: Ee, don't you love it when someone's like, oh, I

572
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: never would have done that, yeah, and then you find

573
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: out later they definitely tried to do it.

574
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally this is like one of the main things

575
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 3: that is like held up as like this whenever there's

576
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 3: like a fucking meme level like Instagram post about Salk

577
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 3: and the polio vaccine or whatever it's like. And he

578
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 3: refused to patent it because how can you patent the sun?

579
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 3: You know, you're like, well, their attorney had just told him, quote,

580
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 3: if there were any patentable novelty to be found in

581
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 3: this phase, it would lie within an extremely narrow scope

582
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 3: and be of doubtful value.

583
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: Doubtful value.

584
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 3: One guy Da Henderson, who's another like public health virus

585
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 3: researcher guy. I almost fell down another rabbit hole about him,

586
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 3: and then I didn't. He has successfully fought smallpox, he

587
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 3: put it. Quote. Jonas came in at this point with

588
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 3: pretty much everything done except for moving on to wider

589
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 3: scale human trials. This vaccine helped a lot. It is

590
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 3: a good vaccine. It is what I got as a kid.

591
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 3: Probably it is probably what you, dear listener got as

592
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 3: a kid if you were raised in America. The rollout

593
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 3: was uneven at the time, According to an article in

594
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 3: the MIT Technology Review written by Angela Matsayak in two

595
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 3: thousand and five, quote By nineteen sixty, less than one

596
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 3: third of the population under forty years of age had

597
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 3: received the full course of three doses of the Salk

598
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 3: vaccine plus a booster. Most of those who had were

599
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 3: white and from middle and upper economic classes. The disease

600
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 3: raged on in urban areas among African Americans and Puerto Ricans,

601
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 3: and in certain rural locales among Native Americans and members

602
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 3: of isolated religious groups. Angela also says quote, While Salk's

603
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 3: vaccine did slow down the incidents of polio among middle

604
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 3: class Americans, its cost and its requirement of three injections

605
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,800
Speaker 3: and a booster meant that for years the disease continued

606
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 3: to affect the poor and others lacking access to proper

607
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 3: medical care. It was only after Albert Sabin's oral vaccine,

608
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 3: which was cheap, effective, and easy to administer, was licensed

609
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 3: for production in nineteen sixty two, that polio could be

610
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 3: fully controlled in the United States. So there's another problem too, right,

611
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 3: They've just developed this new vaccine, not the new new one,

612
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 3: but the Assalk one. But America was so afraid of

613
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 3: communism that it couldn't be a public campaign of vaccination.

614
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 3: It had to come from the nonprofit, and that nonprofit,

615
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 3: the Anti Communist Org that sponsored the whole thing, had

616
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 3: a total of nine million shots available. That was not

617
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 3: nearly enough. Everyone needed at least three or four. But

618
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 3: what they did need was products and services, because that's

619
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 3: how you really defeat communism is products and or services,

620
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 3: of which there are none in countries that are not

621
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 3: the United States of America. Obviously famously, that's why we

622
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 3: don't need to do global trade anymore, and we all

623
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 3: can buy iPhones that were made in America.

624
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: It's just clear.

625
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't see any problem with any of this,

626
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 3: and if I did, i'd be a trader. And I'm anyway, whatever,

627
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 3: here's a bunch of ads, and we're back. If I

628
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 3: ever come back to this topic, it'll be to do

629
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 3: a deeper dive on Albert Sabin and the vaccine that

630
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 3: defeated polio worldwide. The thing I thought I was writing

631
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 3: about when I got biographies about fucking anyway. But this

632
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 3: was my eleventh hour surprise during my research. So Albert Sabin.

633
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 3: He was born Abram Sepperstein in nineteen eighteen in the

634
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 3: now Polish city of Beali, stock Well. It was always Polish,

635
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 3: but it was part of the Russian Empire, and when

636
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 3: he came to the States in nineteen thirty or so

637
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,280
Speaker 3: with his parents, they anglicized his name. He became Albert Sabin.

638
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 3: He spent World War Two traveling all over the world

639
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 3: helping develop vaccines against the insect born diseases that soldiers

640
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 3: were getting. He basically like did all the stuff that

641
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 3: people claimed Salk did.

642
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like Sock is the even though the inverse

643
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 1: in terms of the timeline, he's basically like the inspiration

644
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: for Socks, like the movie character you see. Yeah, he's

645
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 1: the one that was actually out there too.

646
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. And he wanted a live vaccine for polio, and

647
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 3: some of this was like he just sort of believed

648
00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 3: in the axiom that dead vaccines don't solve viral problems

649
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 3: or whatever, right, But all public support for his vaccine

650
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 3: disappeared because the Salk vaccine dropped even though it didn't

651
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 3: eradicate polio, because it wasn't able to be rolled out enough.

652
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 3: So he started collaborating internationally because he couldn't get support

653
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 3: in the United States. Famously, anyone who listens to the

654
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 3: show knows that I'm not a big USSR person. The

655
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 3: mass testing for the vaccine that eradicated polio happened in

656
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 3: the USSR. Salk and Sobin were actually both invited to

657
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 3: the USSR, but Salk didn't go and Sabin did. So

658
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 3: one hundred million people in the USSR were part of

659
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 3: those trials from nineteen fifty five to nineteen sixty one.

660
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 3: And it worked. So you have this oral vaccine and

661
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,280
Speaker 3: it uses a live virus. Because it's a live virus,

662
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 3: it creates a stronger immune response and gives longer lasting protection.

663
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 3: You don't need needles to administer it. They put it

664
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 3: on a sugar cube. This is where the whole spoonful

665
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 3: of sugar makes the medicine go down. Thing apparently like

666
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,479
Speaker 3: it was like a reference to this. Oh I don't

667
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 3: know I read that, but I'm like, I'm like, nah,

668
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 3: But apparently you don't need boosters. You just need a

669
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 3: sugar cube. And because it's live, it's contagious, but in

670
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 3: a good way. You get vaccinated. Like they give you

671
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 3: a fucking sugar cube, You eat it, and then you

672
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 3: go home to your town or village or whatever, and

673
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 3: you spread antibodies naturally, and everyone you spread it to

674
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 3: is now immune. Dapolio two. There is a downside to this.

675
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 3: There's a reason that we use the dead vaccine here

676
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 3: in the United States. A few people die every now

677
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 3: and then. I've read eight to ten people around the

678
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 3: world per year, but I've also read that it's not

679
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 3: every year, and it's fewer people than that. I don't know. Basically,

680
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,280
Speaker 3: like this is getting an administered to millions of people

681
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 3: every year, and eight to ten or so of them die.

682
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 3: And the people who die they do so because occasionally,

683
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 3: incredibly rarely, the virus mutates and becomes active and you

684
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 3: have an outbreak, which is then solved by administering a vaccine.

685
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 3: The perfect solution to polio that the World Health Organization

686
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 3: suggests is that you use both. You use the Sabin

687
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 3: vaccine first, and it creates actual herd immunity. Herd Immunity

688
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 3: is not the word for let everyone get sick. It's

689
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 3: the word for get everyone antibodies. Use the Sabin vaccine

690
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 3: and eradicate wild polio. Then you switch over to the

691
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 3: Salk vaccine to keep it dead. It just costs more

692
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 3: money to do it this way. That's what happened in

693
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 3: the US is that they use Salk's vaccine for a

694
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 3: little while, but it didn't really do enough, and so

695
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 3: then people are like, how come the Commis get the

696
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 3: good American vaccine and we don't get the good American vaccine.

697
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 3: So then they started using the Sabin vaccine, and then

698
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 3: once wild polio was eradicated, they switched back over to

699
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 3: the Salk vaccine. When I was like, Sabin did all

700
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 3: the same stuff SoC did, but like kind of, Actually,

701
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 3: Sabin also tested the vaccine on himself and his family,

702
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 3: and he also didn't patent it. And there isn't as

703
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 3: much information about him not patenting it that I'm able

704
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 3: to find, but it seems as though he would have

705
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,879
Speaker 3: made about seven billion dollars if he had patented this.

706
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 3: What instead he lived off of a teacher's salary for

707
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 3: his entire life.

708
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 1: I want to be like, good for him, but I

709
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 1: also like, I hope, I hope that was purposeful. I

710
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: believe it was okay. Well, then good for him.

711
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,800
Speaker 3: He wrote quote, A lot of people insisted that I

712
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 3: should patent the vaccine, but I didn't want to do that.

713
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 3: It's my gift to all the world's children. And he

714
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 3: worked with Cuba in nineteen sixty two, as Castro's Cuba

715
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 3: was the first country to actually get They were like,

716
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 3: they were like, all right, we're gonna actually commit to

717
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 3: getting rid of polio, and I believe that they were

718
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:19,800
Speaker 3: the first country to succeed. But while Sabin's vaccine defeated

719
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 3: polio around the world, America liked its doctor rock star,

720
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 3: and Sulk remained the darling of the press and the

721
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 3: political establishment. His wife divorced him for quote extreme cruelty.

722
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 1: Oh whoa. I was going to ask you earlier if

723
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: you thought that they had any love for each other,

724
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: And now now.

725
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 3: As best as I can tell, it sounds abusive. It

726
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 3: sounds emotionally abusive, even though he was the one who

727
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 3: had been like, come on, come on, don't you want

728
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 3: to get married. Come on, I don't have a middle name,

729
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 3: give me a middle name.

730
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 1: You know.

731
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 3: He was just constantly his work was his life, and

732
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 3: he like love being famous, and he was like, oh,

733
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 3: the pretty girls like me, you know.

734
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:05,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

735
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 3: The thing I read implies that both of them were

736
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 3: cheating on each other. But the thing I read implies

737
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 3: it in a way that's kind of like blaming her

738
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 3: and then being like, I guess he did it too,

739
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 3: and I'm like, man, I wonder who fucking did it more?

740
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 3: The fucking rock star anyway, whatever agreed, So he's like

741
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 3: ignoring her. He's like choosing where they live, constantly ignoring.

742
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,240
Speaker 3: She's got three kids with them, and she's not having

743
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 3: it anymore. That's like the nicest version. They never really

744
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 3: talked about it, And so when she says extreme cruelty,

745
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 3: it probably means the sort of patterns of emotional abuse.

746
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 3: But I don't know, that's the nicest thing I can

747
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 3: picture there. You know, Donna, his now ex wife, stays

748
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:54,240
Speaker 3: committed to leftist activism, but he's at this point, first

749
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 3: sort of a political and then increasingly into sort of

750
00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 3: a mystical eugenics, although a weirdly maybe leftist mystical eugenics.

751
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 3: I don't know. I'll get into it in a second.

752
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 3: He remarries to a woman who also dated Pablo Picasso.

753
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 3: He wrote a bunch of books about this biophilosophy stuff

754
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 3: he did, where he's all about like, just like we

755
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 3: can understand viruses and bacteria, we can understand the humans.

756
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 3: I'm just like a very normal thing to think. And

757
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:26,919
Speaker 3: he wrote a book called Survival of the wisest. Oh no,

758
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 3: if that name sounds sketchy, it's because the book is sketchy.

759
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:33,959
Speaker 3: I've read excerpts, and I've read analysis, and I've also

760
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 3: it's really fun to read both the Goodreads reviews and

761
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 3: the archive dot org reviews, because there's a hick copy

762
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 3: of that on archive dot org, and it is more

763
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 3: or less calling for the genocide of the stupid. Like

764
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 3: one analysis I read was like, this is just a

765
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 3: book length thing where he's avoiding using that word, where

766
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 3: he continues to say, like, well, the wisest people should

767
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 3: develop a new morality as they inherit the earth. In it,

768
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 3: he writes, quote, if the quality of human life is

769
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 3: to improve, a process of selection, both natural and human

770
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 3: will have to choose the wisest for positions of influence

771
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 3: and power. Eventually, the struggling in the human domain will

772
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 3: be between the wise and the non wise. This implies

773
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 3: that those who lead others in ways that are anti

774
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 3: evolutionary or that are being counter to the natural process

775
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 3: of becoming the being and the and the being is

776
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 3: capitalized like the T, but then being is all capitalized.

777
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 3: I just want everyone to know that aalk out them, okay,

778
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 3: will either be replaced by others possessing wisdom akin to

779
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 3: that of nature, capital and in nature, et cetera, et cetera.

780
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 3: You see what I mean where I'm like, but this

781
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 3: man isn't a good writer. Like when people are like,

782
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 3: he's a really good science communicator, I'm like, well, he's

783
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 3: not a good philosophy communicator.

784
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 1: No, very oversimplify. What I'm picking up here is this

785
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 1: was a very early version of you know, nerds will

786
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 1: inherit the earth Like. He wanted power. He wanted power,

787
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,959
Speaker 1: and this was his way of being this scientist rock star.

788
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:22,839
Speaker 1: I can be the powerful one. I'm wise, it seems,

789
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 1: don't particularly care if I have to run perhaps on

790
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: ethical tests on mentally disabled people.

791
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

792
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: But it's just very interesting to me because it feels

793
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: very loud in him being like, I'm the one with

794
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 1: the power, and totally that's what we should be placing

795
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 1: it on, is wisdom.

796
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 3: Totally, Like, how is he defining wisdom in this context?

797
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 1: Exactly? Because it is true, like you said, I'm all

798
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 1: about wisdom. Oh yeah, that's not bad. Yeah, but it

799
00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 1: just feels very he's placing it in terms of he

800
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: wanted more power.

801
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, how they were going to do all this eugenic

802
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:11,959
Speaker 3: shit once they had power, is that they would build

803
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 3: RNA viruses with which to reprogram humans in the embryo.

804
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 1: No I know, no, no im media, no from me.

805
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 3: It's all right, Well then never mind. I was gonna

806
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 3: pitch our new biophilosophy podcast on cool Zone Media, but

807
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 3: apparently that's a no, no, it's out. I liked a

808
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 3: review that was written on archive dot org about this.

809
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 3: There's a five star review quote a must read for

810
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 3: anyone interested in the thought process of a Malthusian psychopath.

811
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 3: It is troubling to think that this man invented inoculations

812
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 3: that were administered on a large scale.

813
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 1: But it was five stars.

814
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean like it's like half ironic, but it's

815
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 3: like yeah, no, it's like a it's a very useful

816
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 3: book with which to understand this particular genre of like okay,

817
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,840
Speaker 3: and what's interesting again, I haven't read this book yet.

818
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 3: Most people talking about it are aware, they're like, this

819
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,359
Speaker 3: is bad, right, But there's like some people who are

820
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:16,879
Speaker 3: kind of like wellness influencer types who are like, oh,

821
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 3: this book is like so good. It help us understanding

822
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 3: overpopulation and you know how to be our best selves

823
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 3: and all of this stuff, you know, So I wouldn't

824
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 3: be surprised if this eventually crops up as like a

825
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:35,439
Speaker 3: new thing the right gloms onto. But I think again,

826
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 3: I haven't read the whole thing yet. I haven't read

827
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 3: more than excerps yet. One of the things that he

828
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 3: wants to get rid of is diseases, both of the

829
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 3: like susceptibility to whatever things that are bad and eugenics

830
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,879
Speaker 3: to try and cut out, but also diseases like prejudice

831
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 3: and like bigotry. And so he's like, oh, we're going

832
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 3: to eugenically get rid of racism. Is I think what

833
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 3: he's saying.

834
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: Wow, again, that's a real that's a mind fuck, to

835
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 1: be honest with you, I know, that's just like the

836
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: opposite of eugenics. I don't know.

837
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 3: I know, theoretically he'd be accidentally programming his own ideas

838
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 3: out of existence if he did this, right. The other

839
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,320
Speaker 3: thing that people say about him, Okay, when people paint

840
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 3: the simple picture of Sulk, that is technically true, but

841
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 3: not is here is this man who dedicated his life

842
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 3: to trying to make the world better, defeated polio, and

843
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 3: then when he was well past retirement age, spent the

844
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 3: rest of his life up until his death trying to

845
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 3: make a vaccine for AIDS. And that is true. He

846
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 3: spent the end of his life trying to create a

847
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 3: vaccine for AIDS. Once again, he trusted it enough that

848
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 3: he inoculated himself in nineteen eighty seven. I'm not mad

849
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 3: at him for trying any of this stuff. Despite some

850
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 3: early promising animal test results, he never succeeded. His dead

851
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 3: virus approached. Didn't hurt anyone, but it didn't make anyone

852
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 3: better either. Albert Sabin died in nineteen ninety three. Jonas

853
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 3: Edward Salk died in nineteen ninety five. Yeah, we had

854
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:22,800
Speaker 3: our first polio outbreak in the US since nineteen seventy

855
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 3: nine in the year twenty twenty two, and one of

856
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:29,359
Speaker 3: rfk's advisors, this guy named Aaron Siri, tried to get

857
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:36,320
Speaker 3: the FDA to napprove the polio vaccine. So good luck everyone.

858
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really bad.

859
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 4: I mean, the FDA chose a guy to lead like

860
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 4: the vaccine's division. Essentially at the FDA is this guy

861
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 4: named doctor vine Prosad and like friend of the pod

862
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 4: doctor Cavajda, And I we.

863
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:53,760
Speaker 3: Fucking hate this guy sucks.

864
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 4: He spent all of the pandemic trying to get people

865
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 4: not to get vaccinated. He's like a scream into the

866
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 4: void YouTube guy like the guy that's in charge of

867
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 4: the vaccine's division, which is so crazy.

868
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 1: It's so crazy.

869
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 3: It's like this being monstrously bad at math. Like, take

870
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 3: the live polio vaccine. If it kills eight people every year,

871
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 3: that's like not what we want a vaccine to do. Yeah, right,

872
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 3: if you have a ninety percent chance of dying or

873
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 3: a nine percent chance of dying, you pick the nine

874
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 3: percent chance of dying because it's a lot better. Yes,

875
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 3: you are so much safer. I was trying to explain

876
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 3: this to like one of my friends who kind of

877
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 3: went off of terrible direction during COVID sure, who didn't

878
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 3: want to take the vaccine, like, well, we don't know

879
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 3: what it does, And I'm like, but we do know

880
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 3: what COVID does, right, So do you take the door

881
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 3: that one hundred percent has a monster behind it? Or

882
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 3: do you take the door that point zero one percent

883
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 3: has a monster behind it? That is really easy math.

884
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 4: It sure is the other thing that I you know,

885
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:08,879
Speaker 4: I've pointed out. It's like it would be like if

886
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 4: they appointed me to make like basketball decisions for the

887
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 4: Boston Celtics, who I hate with a fiery pack. It's like,

888
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 4: you can't assign a hater to be in charge of

889
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 4: the thing that they hate, Like that doesn't make sense.

890
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 4: Like this guy spent all of COVID and after it's

891
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 4: still just like shitting on vaccines, and they were like,

892
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:33,919
Speaker 4: that's the guy.

893
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:38,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what we need. More vaccine skepticism, more skepticism

894
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 3: of the thing that has successfully destroyed the scariest disease

895
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 3: to Americans in nineteen fifty four.

896
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 4: We're currently working on a project that's going to come

897
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 4: out probably in May on it could happen here. That's

898
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 4: about what's going on with measles in Texas. Oh sure,

899
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 4: that'll be like an an entire week project that we're

900
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 4: working on with the local journalists out there that kind

901
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 4: of explains a little bit about like how we got

902
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 4: to the skepticism a little bit more h and I

903
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:02,800
Speaker 4: think people should listen to that when we drop.

904
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:04,479
Speaker 3: It, it's gonna be really good. When I was doing

905
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 3: this research, there was a there's a moment in nineteen

906
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 3: seventy six, we're actually, both Sabin and Salk were both

907
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 3: talking with the President during a swine flu outbreak. That

908
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:16,799
Speaker 3: thing that Annie Reese currently has survivor Oh okay, yeah,

909
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 3: is contagious for it forever, and everyone needs to make

910
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,920
Speaker 3: any a pariah. No, none of that's true. None of

911
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 3: that's true.

912
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,439
Speaker 1: But if you could get people to follow that six

913
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 1: foot rule again, oh my gosh, yeah, that.

914
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 3: Wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

915
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:31,799
Speaker 1: It would be only for me though.

916
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know I would feel better that you had

917
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:37,759
Speaker 4: that boundary because I missed that boundary every day.

918
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 3: In nineteen seventy six, people thought there was gonna be

919
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:42,879
Speaker 3: a really bad swine flu outbreak, and so they did

920
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 3: a lot of work trying to vaccinate, and like both

921
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 3: Sabin and Salk, I believe were part of this process

922
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:50,280
Speaker 3: of trying to get everyone to get a flu vaccine

923
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 3: that year, and there was like a like one in

924
00:52:55,640 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 3: one hundred thousand incident of an increased potential of like

925
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 3: one particular thing or something, And then the swine flu

926
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,440
Speaker 3: didn't really hit and so everyone was like, ah see,

927
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 3: it is bad, and people sometimes presented as the beginning

928
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 3: of the modern anti vax movement, But then I was

929
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 3: reading other stuff that was like, no, that actually isn't

930
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 3: where there's no continuity there. It all comes back to

931
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,280
Speaker 3: that stupid fake autism study.

932
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I do think there's a lot of very

933
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 1: it feels distinctly American to me. But I just feel

934
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 1: like people got so pissed off that we were telling

935
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 1: them like, you can't leave, You've gotta wear a mask,

936
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 1: Like we were giving them all these rules. Yeah, and

937
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 1: instead of thinking of that herd immunity of like the

938
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 1: health for everyone, people were just angry that they couldn't

939
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 1: do what they wanted to do and then they were isolated.

940
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 1: They were going on these rabbit holes that were telling

941
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:59,959
Speaker 1: them like it's all a lie, it's five g it just.

942
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, instead of just realizing that, like you know, I'm

943
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 4: telling you I miss some of the COVID air or something.

944
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 4: I'm like, yeah, I wish you would wear a mask

945
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 4: on an airplane. You're in a fucking airless metal tube.

946
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 4: A chewa chew a chew cough cough cop Come on,

947
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:17,279
Speaker 4: I wish somebody would wear a mask. Six foot rule miss.

948
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:18,719
Speaker 3: You curb side pick up?

949
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:22,839
Speaker 1: Oh my god? Oh yeah, but.

950
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 4: Really the six foot thing, I'm like people used to

951
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 4: like give you like I loved it, and now it's

952
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 4: like you're in my bubble.

953
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:35,399
Speaker 3: Well, I often have people stay about six feet away

954
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 3: from me. I know, in order to accomplish that, you

955
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 3: have to wear all black and be it like kind

956
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:42,279
Speaker 3: of strange trans girl.

957
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:46,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, as people travel and stuff, it's like we're you're

958
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 4: often the only person on a plane wearing a mask,

959
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:50,359
Speaker 4: which is so baffling to me.

960
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 3: When I think about the nineteen eighteen flu pandemic, where

961
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:56,280
Speaker 3: like the new technology of cover your mouth when you cough.

962
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 3: We look back and we're like, ha, ha, they didn't

963
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 3: know that we should have.

964
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:05,400
Speaker 4: Taken wearing a mask on a plane.

965
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 3: Wearing a mask when you go to.

966
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:12,240
Speaker 4: A hospital or to a doctor's office or somewhere where

967
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 4: you know that you're going.

968
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 1: To be in a crowd space.

969
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 4: What an idea?

970
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and just as a social norm, there's no one

971
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:21,279
Speaker 3: who's going to I don't know. Maybe actually some things

972
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:23,720
Speaker 3: do need to be mandate. I'm not sure, but overall,

973
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:25,359
Speaker 3: no one's going to arrest you for you just cough

974
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 3: into the air, right, but it sure is a faux

975
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 3: pas and it should be right, And like I don't know,

976
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 3: I don't have solutions here around how public health should

977
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:37,439
Speaker 3: be run. I am not enough of an expert. I don't.

978
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:39,839
Speaker 3: I genuinely don't think people should listen to podcasters around

979
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 3: public health. I think they should listen to people who

980
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 3: study it. But people should wear masks sometimes, and people

981
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:49,319
Speaker 3: should sneeze into their crook of their elbow and learn

982
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 3: that hand sanitizer doesn't stop fecal oral transmission. And you know,

983
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:55,840
Speaker 3: love that some stuff.

984
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 1: I love how much you love that story.

985
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 3: I know, Well it's gonny too, because it's the kind

986
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 3: of thing that doesn't really impact people who don't live

987
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:03,880
Speaker 3: lives like I do. But if you go to like

988
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:07,359
Speaker 3: like a forest defense camp, you have like everyone goes

989
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 3: in poops in a we call it a shitter, you know.

990
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:11,680
Speaker 3: And in order to it's safely, it's a certain distance

991
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 3: away from the kitchen, you have to cover everything. You

992
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:15,359
Speaker 3: have to dig a certain depth. You know. It's all

993
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 3: this work that people do. And people used to just

994
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 3: put some hand sanitizer there. Yeah, but thanks to the

995
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:27,440
Speaker 3: work of people explaining how transmission works, that doesn't help. Yeah,

996
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:29,239
Speaker 3: So instead you have to build this thing out of

997
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 3: five gallon buckets and a foot pump where you can

998
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,279
Speaker 3: like pump soapy water, and you know, people have like

999
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:36,480
Speaker 3: solved this problem, and it's one of these things where

1000
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:38,799
Speaker 3: it's like, this is a reasonably normal part of my life.

1001
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 3: It is not a normal part of most people I know,

1002
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 3: it's lives. An outhouse is not a part of like

1003
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:45,279
Speaker 3: most of my friends lives. But for many years lived

1004
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 3: somewhere where an outhouse was the only toilet available, you know. Yeah, anyway,

1005
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:55,880
Speaker 3: any how you feel that about salk and seven and

1006
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:59,360
Speaker 3: polio in the future, you know, the future?

1007
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:04,880
Speaker 1: Uh, you know, honestly, I feel like I say this

1008
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:06,880
Speaker 1: every time I come on a show like this. I

1009
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:09,800
Speaker 1: have a million thoughts and I want to talk about

1010
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:11,880
Speaker 1: all of them. Like you said, there's a lot of

1011
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 1: paths we could have gone down, but currently it's just

1012
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:21,000
Speaker 1: it was interesting to hear how displayed out in the

1013
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 1: past and to juxtapose it with how it's going yeah

1014
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 1: right now in some frightening ways. But yeah, just the

1015
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:35,440
Speaker 1: kind of it sounds like there's always been this politicization

1016
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 1: of vaccines and who gets the credit for them? Yeah,

1017
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 1: and then are they actually any good for you?

1018
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 3: Yeah? All that stuff, and the answer is yes, vaccines

1019
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 3: are great, one of the best technologies I've ever developed.

1020
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 3: And also all the stuff that they're trying to strip

1021
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 3: away from social services that are trying to take out

1022
00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 3: all the good parts of the government and leave all

1023
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 3: the bad parts of the government. And what we need

1024
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 3: to do is the opposite. Imagine that you should get

1025
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:06,200
Speaker 3: rid of the bad things and keep the good things.

1026
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 3: They just got it all backwards. That's the problem.

1027
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:11,680
Speaker 4: And you know, wash your hands, cuver your mouth on

1028
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 4: your cough and maybe just like thinking, am.

1029
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 1: I too close to that person?

1030
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 3: Maybe I am? Yeah, And don't talk to cops. Don't

1031
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:24,040
Speaker 3: fucking talk to cops anyway. Well, anywhere can people follow you?

1032
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:29,439
Speaker 1: People can find me on podcast stuff when Never told

1033
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 1: You and the podcast Savor wherever you get your podcasts.

1034
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:37,040
Speaker 3: And that is Savor without a you. Yeah, not that

1035
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:39,520
Speaker 3: people would assume there's a U and Savor unless they're

1036
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 3: from Turf Island. But anyway, Hi everyone and bye.

1037
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 2: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1038
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 2: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media,

1039
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 2: visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com or check us out

1040
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 2: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your.

1041
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 1: Podcast yes, and that brings us to the end of

1042
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:09,439
Speaker 1: this two parter on vaccines with cool people who did

1043
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 1: cool stuff with Margaret Kiljoy. Shout out to Sophie who's

1044
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 1: on there, who facilitated, and Ian the producer who helped

1045
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:22,080
Speaker 1: out planning this whole thing. It was a great experience.

1046
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 1: We'd love them and go check out that show. If

1047
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 1: you have not already, if you would like to contact us,

1048
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 1: you can. You can email us at Hello at Stuffwenever

1049
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 1: Told You dot com. You can find us on Blue

1050
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 1: Sky at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok

1051
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:41,120
Speaker 1: at Stuff One Never Told You. We're also on YouTube,

1052
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 1: but we have some new merchandise at Common Bureau and

1053
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 1: we have a book you can get wherever you get

1054
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:46,640
Speaker 1: your books. Thanks as always to our superduicial cascine or

1055
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 1: executive Prusumya and our contributor Joey. Thank you. Thanks to

1056
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 1: you for listening Stuff Will Never Told You. Expection by

1057
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 1: Heart Radio for more podcasts or my heart Radio. You

1058
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 1: can check out the heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or

1059
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 1: if you listen to your favorite shows