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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to food Stuff. I'm Anny Rees and

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Speaker 1: I'm Lauren voc Obam, and today we're talking. We're talking

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Speaker 1: about non alcoholic beverage concoctions. Yes, there's no good name

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Speaker 1: for them. There is not. Um. Most commonly on menus

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Speaker 1: called the mocktail. UM. They go buy a lot of

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Speaker 1: a lot of other names, which we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about Laurna and I love talking about all the weird

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Speaker 1: names for things UM, but we probably will be using

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Speaker 1: mocktail ah throughout most of this Yes. Yeah, it's the easiest. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but listeners, if any of you have a good idea

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Speaker 1: for what it should be called, Yeah, there's a space

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Speaker 1: that needs to be filled here. We also have a

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Speaker 1: guest in this episode. Oh yes, Julia Bainbridge came and

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Speaker 1: spoke with this. She did, and you might know her

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Speaker 1: as the host of the Lonely Hour podcast are through

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Speaker 1: her work in the food industry, She's done a lot

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Speaker 1: of writing and she is currently um working on a

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Speaker 1: book about the mocktail UM. We are very much looking

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Speaker 1: forward to yes, and we're gonna let her talk more

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Speaker 1: about all the stuff that she has done at the

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Speaker 1: end of this here podcast episode. Yeah, Yes, Yes, yes

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Speaker 1: in an interview later. But but first, mocktails. What is it?

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Speaker 1: For some reason, I think of like a parakeet and

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Speaker 1: like the tail on the back, like flaring out. I

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Speaker 1: don't know why one coca to two Coca four. I

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Speaker 1: don't know there's a song in there that has a

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Speaker 1: mocktail in it, Mary Kate Nashley song, because all I know,

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Speaker 1: apparently my brain is just Mary Kate Nashlee songs and donuts.

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Speaker 1: I love the sheer number of times that Mary Kate

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Speaker 1: Nashley come up in this podcast. I know I'm growing

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Speaker 1: increasingly embarrassed by it, but at the same time, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna double down. Now own it, dude, own it. I

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Speaker 1: absolutely will own it. Not okay, so it does not

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Speaker 1: a parakeets tail. It is a oh, a virgin cocktail.

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Speaker 1: I forgot about that nonalcoholic cocktail or virgin cocktail. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's a mixed beverage of the non alcoholic variety zero

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Speaker 1: point zero percent a baby as stands for alcohol by volume,

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Speaker 1: yes or hypothetically so hypothetically some some non alcoholic cocktails

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Speaker 1: are technically low alcoholic cocktails with less than zero point

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Speaker 1: five percent alcohol content um, and apart from being something

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Speaker 1: pregnant women can enjoy. Or for people who have struggled

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Speaker 1: with alcohol before the designated driver, maybe a medication that's

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Speaker 1: incompatible with alcohol, maybe you've got an allergy. Or for

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Speaker 1: people a business meetings looking to have one alcoholic drink

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Speaker 1: but not get wasted after that. Um some countries or

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Speaker 1: for some religions, alcohol of any kind is prohibited. It's

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Speaker 1: for a lot more people than you might think at first. Absolutely, yes,

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Speaker 1: Oh and children, children too. Yes. I can tell you

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Speaker 1: a lot of friends of mine would have loved something

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Speaker 1: other than a Shirley Temple to order a restaurants as children. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: I think by the time I was thirteen and really

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Speaker 1: hitting the bar in Mitzvah circuit like I was, Shirley

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Speaker 1: Temples were already too sweet for me. But you wanted

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Speaker 1: the experience. You were like, I'm so grown up by

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Speaker 1: I am thirteen. Look at this dress that I am wearing.

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Speaker 1: I had my hair done today. I need to carry

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Speaker 1: around a glass like Lauren Bacall, because that's what adulthood is. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: carrying around glasses with the fans dress that it's done.

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Speaker 1: It's not math and dirty. I never I never ordered

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Speaker 1: a Shirley Temple. Oh no, no, I just wasn't. I'm not.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't into sweet things then. I'm not into sweet

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Speaker 1: things too much now of the drink variety. Give me

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Speaker 1: the aforementioned donnut any day. But my friends were so

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Speaker 1: excited every time they saw them on a menu, and

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Speaker 1: I think to this day they would be. Honestly, I'm

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Speaker 1: still enjoy them. I Oh, I haven't had one in

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Speaker 1: a very very long time. Okay, homework. Uh, if you

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Speaker 1: think of a traditional beverage menu, traditionally it's been cocktails, liquor, beer, wine,

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Speaker 1: and then a smushed list of soda offerings. Oh sure, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like like we have Coca Cola products, or we have

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Speaker 1: pepsi products, and that's it, right, that's all it says, exactly.

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Speaker 1: And as far as um craft cocktails have increased in

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Speaker 1: popularity among bartenders and consumers, so too has the mocktail,

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Speaker 1: the craft mocktail, perhaps because bartenders have all these syrups

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Speaker 1: and tinctures and fizzy drinks at their disposal for cocktails,

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Speaker 1: so it just makes sense to have offerings for those

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Speaker 1: looking for a well bounced drink minus the alcohol and

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Speaker 1: you know, just something kind of nicer than your coke cola,

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Speaker 1: a little more exciting. Perhaps you're looking to celebrate to sure, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it just makes sense to me. Um. Oh and there's

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Speaker 1: even their Eyes of Sober happy hours. Yeah, um, I

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Speaker 1: was reading about them. They seem this seemed pretty fun

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Speaker 1: to me, And I had that thought the other day

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Speaker 1: when we were at a work happy hour and just

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Speaker 1: how difficult it might be if you don't enjoy alcohol.

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Speaker 1: And so many of these events are so based around alcohol. Absolutely, yeah,

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Speaker 1: So it'd be great to have more of these offers

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Speaker 1: an option. Yeah. There's also along those lines lots of

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Speaker 1: low or no alcohol beers or malt beverages, plus similar

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Speaker 1: low alcohol wines and even de spirited spirits on the market,

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Speaker 1: which is sort of a side quest to our topic today,

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Speaker 1: but I did want to mention it, especially as these

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Speaker 1: products might be useful as part of a mocktailmaker's backbar. Yes. Um,

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Speaker 1: And even though several mock tails are based on the

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Speaker 1: alcoholic version, simply omitting the alcohol from a recipe is

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Speaker 1: generally a bad practice. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, because you

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Speaker 1: need to consider the ratio. Um, what do you replace

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Speaker 1: the alcohol with? It's a strong flavor, you're gonna want

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Speaker 1: something there. Um, sparkling water is an easy enough institute

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Speaker 1: for vodka. That's a good starting place. Yeah. Um, but

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Speaker 1: I do I have to say I like the nameplay

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Speaker 1: of mocktails. The no heito cuddles on a beach that

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Speaker 1: light and drizzly dark and stormy, light and drizzly. Um. There.

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Speaker 1: There are lots of other ways to make a non

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Speaker 1: alcoholic cocktail replicate the flavor experience of an alcoholic one, though,

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Speaker 1: Like just just think about what's happening in your mouth

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Speaker 1: when you sip an alcoholic beverage, or if you haven't

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Speaker 1: had one, come along with me on this journey. Um.

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Speaker 1: The alcohol is going to set off a particular taste

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Speaker 1: receptor that reports both physical heat um, and also of

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Speaker 1: chemical spice. That's the burning sensation of booze. But it

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Speaker 1: also happens with stuff like kept sacan or ginger or peppercorns.

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Speaker 1: There's also an astringent or drying sensation to say, way

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Speaker 1: that lemons and lots of berries, vinegars and other tart

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Speaker 1: acidic foods have And there might be some tannins in there,

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Speaker 1: and in the case of like wine or stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: which create an extra layer of a stringency, as do

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Speaker 1: tease and coffee. If the product was aged in wood barrels,

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Speaker 1: either charred or plane it might have picked up some

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Speaker 1: particular flavor compounds from that, like a vanilla or smoke

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Speaker 1: or kind of a cherry almond sort of thing. It

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Speaker 1: might contain carbon dioxide bubbles as soda water and other

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Speaker 1: soft drinks. Indeed, do It could have a smooth or

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Speaker 1: creamy kind of mouth feel, either from the ingredients themselves

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Speaker 1: or from the bacteria or yeasts that went into the

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Speaker 1: fermentation process. And stuff like kombucha can contain similar bacteria,

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Speaker 1: yeast poop products or um. Adding an egg or just

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Speaker 1: the yolk or the white to a shaking cocktail can

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Speaker 1: give you some of that silk. There might be some

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Speaker 1: bitterness similarly, which you can get from herbs like rosemary, sage,

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Speaker 1: or time, or from the oils and citrus peels, or

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Speaker 1: from spices like card mom, and sweetness from any remaining

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Speaker 1: sugars post fermentation. And y'all know that there are no

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Speaker 1: end of sweet juices and sugary concoctions on the market,

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Speaker 1: no end. And those are just like some starter parallels.

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Speaker 1: There are tons and tons of foods and products out

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Speaker 1: there that that replicate these flavor sensations and they're ready

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Speaker 1: for the replication. Yes, yes, so that's our basic overview

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Speaker 1: of the virgin cocktail, the mocktail. Um. But we do

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Speaker 1: have a little bit of history, especially famous mock tails

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Speaker 1: out there for you. Yes, but first we have a

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Speaker 1: quick break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back.

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Speaker 1: Thank you sponsored, Yes, thank you. The ancestor of the

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Speaker 1: cocktail is something we've talked about before the soda shop. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: If you want more info on that, we've we have

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Speaker 1: a whole episode for you. We do. And another thing

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Speaker 1: we'll have to do a whole episode on maybe probably

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Speaker 1: is those low to no alcohol beverages. And these have

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Speaker 1: roots in the small beers of Europe going way way

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Speaker 1: way back, but production began in earnest in the United

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Speaker 1: States during Prohibition UM. The law prevented sales of beverages

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Speaker 1: above at zero point five percent alcohol by volume levels,

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Speaker 1: so a number of breweries converted to creating this stuff

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Speaker 1: rather than shut down entirely. Uh. But it wasn't great generally.

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Speaker 1: This was just like light beer with the ethanol heated

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Speaker 1: out of the fermented malt, which really flattens the flavor. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the heating process is not good for all of those

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Speaker 1: delicate aroma compounds. They're so delicate that believed to be

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Speaker 1: first mocktail is one that we just mentioned and you've

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Speaker 1: probably heard of before, the uh, the Shirley Temple. If

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Speaker 1: you've never had one, it's most commonly a mixture of

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Speaker 1: ginger ale, grenadine, a cherry, uh, and maybe some lemon

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Speaker 1: as garnish. And I've never had one. I just could

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Speaker 1: tell I my kid, And yes, it was named after

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Speaker 1: child actress Shirley Temple. As per usual, multiple restaurants and

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Speaker 1: hotels bartenders claimed to have claimed to have invented this

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Speaker 1: one for Temple when she visited with her parents. Temple herself,

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Speaker 1: who became Temple Black, once asserted the drink was created

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Speaker 1: at the Brown Derby restaurant of Hollywood in the nineteen

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Speaker 1: thirties and that she was not involved. We just talked

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Speaker 1: about this restaurant, didn't we. Yeah, it looks like a Nerby.

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Speaker 1: It looks like a Derby hat. It looks looks like

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Speaker 1: a big, big brown Derby hat. Yeah. I got a

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Speaker 1: good chuckle out of that picture. We need to go. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Field trips, Field trips all around the Royal Hawaiian Resort,

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Speaker 1: and Wakiki lays claim to it as well, purportedly naming

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Speaker 1: it in honor of their frequent famous guest. Another restaurant,

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Speaker 1: Chasen in Beverly Hill, says they were the first ones

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Speaker 1: to whip us up for Temple's tenth birthday. Temple allegedly

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Speaker 1: went to court twice to prevent soda companies from bottling

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Speaker 1: a Shirley Temple. Um and she was not a big cocktail,

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Speaker 1: mocktail for chill and fans. He was afraid it was

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Speaker 1: going to inspire to Yeah, what's that called a good gateway?

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Speaker 1: A gateway, gateway, mork tale, a gateway mark tail. A

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Speaker 1: few other celebrities have mocktails named after them. You've got

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Speaker 1: the roy Rogers, named for the famous teetotaler actor Singer.

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Speaker 1: Is a concoction of coola, grenadine and cherries, and since

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Speaker 1: it is similar to the Shirley Temple, it's sometimes called

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Speaker 1: the Shirley Temple Black her married name. The origin is unknown,

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Speaker 1: and it's often called the boys version of the Shirley

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Speaker 1: Town because Cola is so manly and it's not. It's

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Speaker 1: very gendered I'm okay, sure whatever. Always um, there's the

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Speaker 1: Arnold Palmer, which is a half and half mixture of

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Speaker 1: lemonade and iced tea. The golfer claimed to make this

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Speaker 1: drink at home for himself, but sometime in the nineties

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Speaker 1: sixties someone overheard him ordering at a bar this drink

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Speaker 1: a bar of bar and pulps rings, and the person

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Speaker 1: asked the bartender for that palma drink and Old Arnie

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Speaker 1: Solids has to make some cash, and he allowed the

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Speaker 1: Arizona Beverage Company to use his name to make a

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Speaker 1: bottled version. Huh yeah. Mocktails surge in popularity in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighties with all of those sugary premixes we've talked

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Speaker 1: about with cocktails absolutely. By the turn of the twenty

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Speaker 1: first century, total consumption of alcohol worldwide was falling, and

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Speaker 1: in two point two billion liters of non alcoholic beer

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Speaker 1: were sold. That's five dred and eighty million gallons, which

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Speaker 1: was up from just five years previous in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and seven. Part of this rise in non alcoholic multi

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Speaker 1: beverage sales is that the technology and process for creating

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Speaker 1: them has improved. Burgers are working with yeasts that are

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Speaker 1: slower to convert sugar to alcohol, but that's still impart

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Speaker 1: other flavors to the product. And vacuum processing can pull

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Speaker 1: the ethanol out of fermented products at much lower temperatures,

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Speaker 1: preventing damage of as flavor molecules, and reverse osmosis can

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Speaker 1: do it at even lower temperatures. Still, oh, reverse osmosis.

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Speaker 1: And these days, with the rise and handmade cocktails and

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Speaker 1: the focus on health and mindfulness that some people are ridiculous,

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Speaker 1: there are all kinds of guides and tricks and products

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Speaker 1: out there to make tasty non alcoholic cocktails. And okay

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Speaker 1: to talk about all that, Um, we're going to have

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Speaker 1: our our guest, Julia Bainbridge in just a moment. But

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Speaker 1: first one more quick break for a word from our sponsor.

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Speaker 1: And we're back. Thank you sponsor. And now can can

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Speaker 1: we do? Can we do a guest segment transition? I

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Speaker 1: believe we can. I think we have the technology heck,

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Speaker 1: and we are here with Julia Bainbridge. Thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for being with us, Julia, and you're having me, yes,

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Speaker 1: and uh, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Yes?

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Speaker 1: I am an editor and a writer, mostly about food,

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Speaker 1: but about some other stuff too, like feelings and what

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Speaker 1: not feelings? Who does give me feelings? That's true. But

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Speaker 1: I'm the host, creator, and producer of a podcast called

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Speaker 1: The Lonely Hour, which is an exploration of loneliness and solitude.

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Speaker 1: But it's not a bummer. Um at least that is

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Speaker 1: my cocktail party line. But back to the food stuff.

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Speaker 1: I've been an editor of an Appetite and most recently

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Speaker 1: Atlanta magazine. UM. And I've written some stuff for The

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Speaker 1: Washington Post and Cutting US Traveler and SOB and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that. UM. And I'm about to start research on

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Speaker 1: a book all about non alcoholic cocktails and other non

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Speaker 1: alcoholic drinks, a whole book. Yes, uh, where is enough

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Speaker 1: to say? Yeah, that's that's really exciting for it for

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Speaker 1: a number of reasons. What's the mocktail landscape like these days?

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Speaker 1: It's still a pretty nascent category, but there's definitely movement there. Um.

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Speaker 1: More and more bartenders are carving out space for non

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Speaker 1: alcoholic drinks on their beverage menus, and then we're products

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Speaker 1: on the market too. So seed Lip I don't know

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Speaker 1: if if you heard of this. Um. Seed Lip is

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Speaker 1: the world's first distilled non alcoholic spirit. Um. It was

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Speaker 1: launched by this guy Ben Um. I think his last

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Speaker 1: name is Branson, a British guy. Um. And there's Sound,

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Speaker 1: which is a brand making sparkling tease UM. And some

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Speaker 1: new product called kin Tonic that's made with botanical extracts

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Speaker 1: and it's being marketed as an alcohol alternative. UM. I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to get my hands on the bottle of that.

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Speaker 1: I haven't yet, but um, it's just we see this happening.

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Speaker 1: It's definitely growing um and I think we're only going

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Speaker 1: to see this category continue to grow and strengthen. There's

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Speaker 1: the rate of decline in global alcohol consumption is accelerating. Um. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The global market for alcoholic drinks shrunk by one point

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Speaker 1: three percent in And I know that sounds really small,

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Speaker 1: but compared with an average rate of point three in

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Speaker 1: the previous five years, it's pretty significant. Uh. What do

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Speaker 1: you think is driving that that rise in popularity? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's this is it's like a confluence of so many things. UM.

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Speaker 1: So I'm sorry for the long answer here. I mean

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Speaker 1: the first thing that comes to mind is the waning

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Speaker 1: taboo around substance abuse issues. UM, so, so were people

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Speaker 1: are less I think about like in my mom's era,

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Speaker 1: the conversations around alcoholism and drug addiction whatnots just like

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Speaker 1: a totally different landscape today than it was then. So

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Speaker 1: so were people are less and less ashamed, um to

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Speaker 1: be so, and then because our palates are also more sophisticated,

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Speaker 1: Like you can look to any mass market food magazine

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Speaker 1: to see the global ingredients that are now assumed to

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Speaker 1: be found in readers local supermarkets, you know, to find

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Speaker 1: evidence of that, like we see Arfa, you know, and

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Speaker 1: all these um strange things that you actually can find locally. Um.

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Speaker 1: So we're we're expecting more. Um. So a juice isn't

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Speaker 1: going to cut it anymore for these people who want

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Speaker 1: to not drink alcohol. Um. And so the industry is

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Speaker 1: really begin to answer to that rising demand with more thoughtful,

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Speaker 1: multiple component drinks that don't have alcohol in them. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then I think to speaking of the industry, like

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Speaker 1: a growing number of bartenders are also drinking less or

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Speaker 1: not at all. So there's um, Jack McGarry at the

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Speaker 1: Dead Rabbit, New York, there's Jarren Rivas at Tipo, and

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Speaker 1: Jim Karns who has the happiest hour and slowly, surely

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Speaker 1: I think also in New York. Um, they've both been

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Speaker 1: really outspoken about their sobriety. So again the kind of

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Speaker 1: lack of um or the waning shame around talking about it. Um.

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Speaker 1: So then they're the millennials, like anything driving trends today.

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Speaker 1: So um. I was reading this piece by the Wall

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Speaker 1: Street Journal just published in March about the twenty some

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Speaker 1: things who are embracing clean living as a way to

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Speaker 1: find balance to mid today's global uncertainty. So um. The

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Speaker 1: journal dubbed this group the clean lifers, writing that they

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Speaker 1: revel in dodging the indulgences of their elders like a

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Speaker 1: new temperance, like like like temperance, but in a fun way. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: with no sense. Um. Yeah. So of course you know

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Speaker 1: this group is shaping consumer behavior and um that euromonitor,

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Speaker 1: that market research firm, Um, they did some research and

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Speaker 1: in the notes they said, this group feels they can

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Speaker 1: make a difference. This influences they're spending choices. So it's

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Speaker 1: more about saying no no to alcohol, no to unhealthy habits,

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Speaker 1: no to animal based products, and increasingly nod to unmeasured

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Speaker 1: or uninformed spending. Um. And then there's just like learning

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Speaker 1: to have restraint like what, Yeah, I mean we had

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Speaker 1: this wonderful resurgence of golden Aarra cocktail culture right. This

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Speaker 1: was you know, with speakeasy style bars. Um. This all

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Speaker 1: started to kind of effortvests like ten to fifteen years ago. Um.

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Speaker 1: And now so we all know what a Negroni or

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Speaker 1: a Manhattan is um. And we also know the punch

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Speaker 1: that they pack you know. Um those are yeah. UM,

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Speaker 1: so you have one, maybe two of those, and it's

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Speaker 1: kind of game over. So um, where to go next?

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Speaker 1: You know? I love bunappety. Editor at Large Andrew Knowlton Um.

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Speaker 1: He wrote an essay called A Short History of My

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Speaker 1: Long Drinking Life. It was in October seventeen issue UM,

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Speaker 1: and he said, I drink less, but I drink better.

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Speaker 1: And it's because I've learned to respect drinking and the

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Speaker 1: craft of it, the camaraderie of it, um, and the

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Speaker 1: importance of it in my life. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: screw up that relationship. So he's just put some rules

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Speaker 1: in place for himself to be able to enjoy drinking

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Speaker 1: but not overdo it. Um. And that just wanted James

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Speaker 1: Beard Award. That's got yeah, yeah, especially, I mean we

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Speaker 1: just went on a field trip to Kentucky to kind

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Speaker 1: of travel a little bit of the Bourbon trail and

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Speaker 1: visit some distilleries and some breweries. And I think we

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Speaker 1: counted it, and we sampled over thirty beers in three days. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And most of those were tasting pores, you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: like three ounces, but and and we were sharing them.

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Speaker 1: But oh, absolutely, Like our bodies were so angry at us.

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Speaker 1: And it's so easy when you're in this industry to

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Speaker 1: have that pressure to try everything and to you know,

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Speaker 1: just to be able to speak about it or to

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Speaker 1: have the experience. Yeah, I mean were I feel like

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Speaker 1: with this rise in the mindfulness movement, we're being more

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Speaker 1: mindful about what we consume on a number of different levels.

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Speaker 1: Like even if people don't have a allergy a to gluten,

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Speaker 1: they're thinking, Oh, I feel kind of bloated when I

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Speaker 1: eat too much gluten, so I'm going to reduce that intake.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I should eat a vegetable that isn't wheat, right right, Um,

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Speaker 1: So kind of the same thing. Like I have plenty

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Speaker 1: of friends who aren't sober and don't struggle with substance

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Speaker 1: abuse issues, but they've removed alcohol for you know, dry

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Speaker 1: new areas of thing alcohol to kind of reset for January,

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Speaker 1: and everybody reports back just saying I felt so good,

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Speaker 1: and so this is now part of their practice where

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Speaker 1: maybe two months a year they don't drink just because

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Speaker 1: it feels good. Yeah. Have you done any research into

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Speaker 1: the history of a non alcoholic mixed drinks and if so, Um,

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Speaker 1: how has the scene changed over time? Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: like in terms of recent history, as we were saying, like,

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Speaker 1: things have definitely gotten a lot more sophisticated in terms

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Speaker 1: of what restaurants and bars are offering non drinkers, Like

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Speaker 1: ten even five years ago, you'd find, you know, those

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Speaker 1: tiky derivative sugar bomb drinks swell Bucks for basically juice

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Speaker 1: um and sour mix. Never forget the sound. Oh yes,

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Speaker 1: never forget um, but like with no nuance or herbal

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Speaker 1: or bitter edge. And that's changing as we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: and from what I've learned talking to bartenders about this category,

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Speaker 1: like it's not a loss for them, like mocktails, Like

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Speaker 1: cringe every time I say that word, But it's just

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Speaker 1: the the easiest one word thing to say. Montel's allow

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Speaker 1: bartenders to play with kind of herbal and plant based

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Speaker 1: ingredients that would have been off limits before. Because if

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Speaker 1: you think about how you build a cocktail, it always

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Speaker 1: starts with that base spirit and that's a strong flavor,

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Speaker 1: and then you build the rest of the components around that.

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Speaker 1: So remove it and there's all this like flavor real

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Speaker 1: estate to play with. You know, you can use pine

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Speaker 1: and birch and all these things that are strong themselves

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Speaker 1: that may have competed with the spirit before. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of exciting, Like I see a lot of people, a

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Speaker 1: lot of bartenders getting jazzed by mocktail. Um. Yeah. But

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Speaker 1: if if we're going to further back, you mentioned temperance

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Speaker 1: drinks before. So, like the temperance era, Britain was rapidly

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Speaker 1: industrializing in the eighteen hundreds and there was this rise

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Speaker 1: in heavy drinking um that went along with that, and

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Speaker 1: so the government tried to straighten things out by putting

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Speaker 1: pressure on people to drink more responsibly or not at all. Um.

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Speaker 1: So temperance drinks were born, and I for the sense

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Speaker 1: I get is that they they were kind of about

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Speaker 1: having health benefits. They were temperate strengths. Specifically, We're like,

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Speaker 1: you would have ginger because that's good for soothing colds

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Speaker 1: or from into dandelion roots servant to detoxify um. And

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Speaker 1: that kind of sounds familiar with what I'm seeing now,

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Speaker 1: Like I'm thinking of abc V, which is a Gen

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Speaker 1: George restaurant in UM in New York, and the beverage

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Speaker 1: menu has a category called vibrations. Now, I know it

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Speaker 1: sounds a little bougie and a little bit a little

394
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Speaker 1: bit wou um, but they're all meant to influence you

395
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Speaker 1: in some way. They call them like restorative tonics. So

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Speaker 1: there's one called to elevate, for example on that head St.

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Speaker 1: John's ward and rose and black currant in it UM.

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Speaker 1: I haven't tested them out yet, but I will report back. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, please yeah posted that. UM. Do you have

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Speaker 1: any favorites or any recipes you'd recommend? Yeah, I like

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Speaker 1: tart flavors, so I like a like switch ales or shrubs.

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Speaker 1: So switch is made with usually apple cide or vinegar,

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Speaker 1: water and ginger um. And then they're shrubs or syrups

404
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 1: that are made from fruit and um preserved with vinegar

405
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 1: and you can just mix that with sparkling water and

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Speaker 1: have kind of a refreshing but pungent drink. UM if

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00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 1: you got about up at their spinoff website, healthy ish um,

408
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 1: and you search for non alcoholic drinks, you'll get like

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Speaker 1: a bunch of sodas and agua frescas. And that's kind

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Speaker 1: of a good place to start. I think, Um, how

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Speaker 1: do you how do you balance the flavors out when

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Speaker 1: you're dealing with when when you take away that main

413
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 1: booze punch. Yeah, it's it's a good question, and it's

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Speaker 1: it's tricky, um, As I'm doing research for this book,

415
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,919
Speaker 1: like that seems to be the thing that most bartend

416
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Speaker 1: say is the hardest to achieve. Um, But I guess,

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Speaker 1: like anything, you know, you just have to taste and

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Speaker 1: tweet to your liking. Like most home cooks are likely

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Speaker 1: going to be working with store bought juices right when

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Speaker 1: they're making any drinks at home, and that means you're

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Speaker 1: gonna have something that's sweet, very sweet. Yes, you can

422
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:17,439
Speaker 1: send it out with some sparkling water. You can balance

423
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 1: it with something tart or bitter or herbal. I think

424
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: you really just have to get in the kitchen and

425
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 1: or behind the bar and play. Yeah. Uh, do do

426
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,439
Speaker 1: you have any really strange sounding combinations that you have

427
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: found that really work. Yes, I mean, and I didn't

428
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: think they would work, but they do. Like this Mike Dtota,

429
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 1: I think that's how you say his last name, touto Toto. Sorry,

430
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 1: Mike um at the Bombie in a story and he

431
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: makes a drink called the Billows and Thieves and it

432
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 1: has great fruit juice and cold brooded coffee, both which

433
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: I thought was going to be like way too bitter

434
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 1: on bitter, but it ends up making sense to the

435
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 1: palette for whatever reason that I can't explain. Maybe we

436
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 1: have to ask Harold McGee about the chemistry of that.

437
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: But and then Mike kind of smooth it out with

438
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: like a cardamom cinnamon syrup. Um. Just just go trust me,

439
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,400
Speaker 1: it really is good. I never would have thought. I mean,

440
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 1: I've heard of cold brewed coffee um in drinks, you know,

441
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 1: I've heard cold freud coffee with like some sparkling water

442
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 1: and a little lemon peel um, which I guess is

443
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: the same idea, right, Like the lemon rind is bitter

444
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: and you have that little bit of citrusy. But you know,

445
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: a couple of pounds of grape rujuice is another thing.

446
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: And I really didn't think it would work, but it does.

447
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,400
Speaker 1: And he's also I would say, Mike is also really

448
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 1: into salting cocktails, um, and so like in that one

449
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 1: the Billows and Thieves, he mixes in a smoked sea

450
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,679
Speaker 1: salt um and it sounded strange to me, but I

451
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know why it should have. I mean,

452
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: salt elevates our food and intensifies the flavors in whatever

453
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 1: we cook. So it does the same thing to drinks

454
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,239
Speaker 1: like and it's and it's not like we don't use

455
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: salt in some cocktails, like salted rims on a margarita

456
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 1: or salt and bloody Mary, right right. So this is

457
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: just more kind of mixed in. And so next time

458
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: you make a decary for yourself at home, make one

459
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 1: with salt in the mix one without, and taste some

460
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: side beside. I promise you will notice the difference. That's

461
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 1: the best kind of homework. Can um popular alcoholic drinks

462
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 1: be replicated with non boozy products or is it usually

463
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: better to start? Yeah, I mean you'll have varying opinions

464
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: on this, I mean they can. And in fact, there's

465
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 1: a book coming onto the market soon. Um. It's called

466
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 1: Clean and Dirty Drinking and the concept is to provide

467
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 1: two versions of each recipe, like cleans alcohol and a

468
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 1: dirty with alcohol. UM. And that's by um, a pretty

469
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 1: well respected bartender in Los Angeles. Like I have no

470
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: doubt that she um will do that well. But I

471
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: have to admit I'm less interested in that, Like I have,

472
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: UM a little less experience trying to muscle a cocktail

473
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,239
Speaker 1: into something non alcoholic UM, and I do. I think

474
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: it'd be tricky because cocktail again starts with that base

475
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 1: spirit and then you're building other components around that flavor

476
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 1: to balance it out. So when you remove that base spirit,

477
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: you're starting with a completely different canvas um. But I

478
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: really I want this. I want this category to sort

479
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 1: of like exist at its own and stand tall on

480
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 1: its own without sort of you know again, that word

481
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 1: mocktail implies that it's trying to be something else when

482
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: these are these are fully formed beverages in their own right. Yeah,

483
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 1: oh yeah, Um, I was. I was just reminded of

484
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: how much I prefer meat substitutes that aren't like chicken

485
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 1: with an apostrophe somewhere in the word, like if it's

486
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 1: just tempted like that's yeah, it doesn't need to taste

487
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 1: like anyway, we're over there. I think most of us

488
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: see that now. Um, so maybe we'll get over that

489
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 1: hump with us too, Oh, I hope. So it sounds

490
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 1: complicated though, do you if someone is interested in starting

491
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: to play with this at home, like, is it going

492
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 1: to take a lot of time and money or or

493
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: are there kind of products that they can start using

494
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: to to build their base. Yeah? I mean definitely there

495
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 1: are products out there, and ever increasing amount of products

496
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 1: like we mentioned before. But but you know, like any

497
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: category of drinks, they're various commitment levels here, right. So

498
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 1: sure you can smoke some apples using wood chips, you know,

499
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: and whip that into something complicated and they use that

500
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,439
Speaker 1: example because someone in Denmark actually does this. But you know,

501
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 1: you can also make a big batch of some kind

502
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: of drinking vinegar like the switchholser shrubs we were talking about,

503
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: and have it on hand, you know, for a couple

504
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: of weeks in the fridge to mix with water and

505
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 1: play around with. So I think, you know, it just depends. Um.

506
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: In fact, I think again, if this book happens, well, um,

507
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 1: I kind of want to have like a stamp on

508
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 1: each recipe that is about commitment level, like from one

509
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: to five. This is like how involved you need to

510
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: get or not because I know, like I guess you

511
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:33,479
Speaker 1: could read the recipe and get a sense of that,

512
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 1: but when you come home for the end, like a cocktail,

513
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: it's punctuating the end of the day. You don't need

514
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: this for sustenance. You want it because it's a joy

515
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: or a pleasure. Um. And certain, Yeah, you're on wonding

516
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: and so it's usually about what you're craving. You think, like,

517
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: you know, do I want salty and cold martini? Do

518
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: I want something kind of warm? Um? And you want

519
00:28:53,320 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: it pretty immediately um or maybe one day do for

520
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: whatever happened in your day previous to that, you have

521
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: the energy. I want people to be able to like

522
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: see immediately um, what's required of them to make whatever drink?

523
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: So um? Commitment level one to five, I guess speaking

524
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: of commitment level, Uh there there there are lots of

525
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: bars that are experimenting with this, but there are lots

526
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: that are perhaps not. So if you are looking for

527
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: a non alcoholic drink and you're out somewhere, is there

528
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: something that's easy to order, yeah, for from a bartender

529
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: who might not be like, be like, what shot of whiskey? Yeah,

530
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: bitters and soda, you know, I mean your average dive

531
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: bar likely has some kind of bitter soda water and

532
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 1: a lime wedge if you're lucky, if you want one,

533
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: and you know, and it's fizzy and blush toned and

534
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: a whole lot more interesting than a glass of water

535
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: or coke. So um, I think, like, yes, even in

536
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: dive bars, Uh, you don't have to feel like a

537
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: second class you're non drinker. I that's one that I

538
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: order honestly all the time. Kind of settles your tell

539
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: me a little and it's nice. It's so bitter, and

540
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: I personally bitter is my favorite flavor, so it makes

541
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: me really happy. And I guess there are bidders if

542
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: you're truly sober. That's a tricky one because bidders do

543
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: have alcohol in them. And even once you're you know,

544
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: usually using an eye dropper or just dashing in a couple.

545
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: So once you have it mixed with a you know,

546
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: a bunch of ounces of water, it's really trace amounts

547
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: of alcohol. But again, technically, if you've been through a

548
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: program and you're trying not to drink at all, that's

549
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: not going to cut it worth mentioning. Yeah, or religiously speaking,

550
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: you you do not consume alcohol products right for whatever reason.

551
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 1: But UM, I know one of your questions was about

552
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: like products at home. There are some glycerin based UM

553
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: bidders are coming onto the market and those don't have

554
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 1: alcohol in them. So, UM, I think like bidders is

555
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: something I would recommend people to like start sucking their

556
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: bars with if they want to play around at home.

557
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: And you can do that even if you're, UM, truly

558
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: a non drinker. You know, there's also been a rise

559
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: in UM like drinking vinegars like and stuff like that

560
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: or not that that's a parallel one to one kind

561
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: of thing. But would that be a good base for

562
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: trying to play around with non alcohol? Yeah? Absolutely, I

563
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: mean that would take the place of um the shrub

564
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: or the switcher we were talking about before. Like Andy

565
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: Ricker at pop Pock he has this line of like

566
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: pre batched drinking vinegars and it's great. I mean, you

567
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: can just put that with some sparkling water and call

568
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: it a day, or um, you can sort of build

569
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: a multiple component drink with that. UM, I don't know

570
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: yet what that would look like when I'm about to

571
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: do a lot of an a drinking on the road,

572
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: report back, absolutely giving it. What can can mocktails be

573
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: paired with food? How does? How does that whole thing? Unfortunately, guys,

574
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: this is another one I don't have a great answer to.

575
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, yes they can, I don't. I

576
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: don't totally know how yet. Like, that's something I definitely

577
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 1: want to focus on in this book because they're countless

578
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: resources for how to pair year wine and cocktails with

579
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: food and not so for this category of drinks. Um

580
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: And I really want readers to be able to entertain

581
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: a crowd of non drinkers, whether they themselves drink or not.

582
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: Um So, I want to have a little guide to

583
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,239
Speaker 1: sort of flavor pairings. Um So again, I'll report back

584
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: because I take into yeah, yeah, no, I mean it's

585
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: something that I've been thinking about because I think the

586
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: cocktails pair really poorly with food most of the time,

587
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: because the cocktail is its own entire things. Unless you're

588
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: really want unless you have built specifically a dish for

589
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: that cocktail, it's all going to get muddled. Which I

590
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: know is a pun but sorry, but um it's true.

591
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: Opposed to something like wine which I think does have

592
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: just a relative simplicity that you bring out extra flavors. No,

593
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,239
Speaker 1: I think you're right up into some tasting dinners with

594
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: like full on cocktail pairings, and it it always just

595
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: feels not quite right yeum, the idea of it, And

596
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 1: then even when you're trying it, it's like, well, here's

597
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 1: here are you know, four flavors of a glass, and

598
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: then here are x many of flavors on the plate,

599
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: and it's just kind of over overload. Yeah. Absolutely. Um. So, okay,

600
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: is is there a better word than mocktail? There must be, Yeah,

601
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: I mean mocktail it's cheesy. And also, as we were saying,

602
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: like it conveys that these drinks are trying to be cocktails,

603
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: when in fact there good drinks in their own right.

604
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't think we've quite hit it with

605
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: the terminology. Like I've heard spirit free cocktails, virgin cocktails. Yeah,

606
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: spirit free virgin cocktails, soft cocktails. Um, I kind of

607
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: like that. That's sort of my favorite one in the running.

608
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: Um zero proof cocktails. Um. I almost defiantly want to

609
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: call them good drinks, Like all of the other terms

610
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 1: sound like they're missing something or they're longing for something.

611
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: I mean, Unfortunately, good drinks doesn't quite convey like the

612
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: complexity of the non alcoholic cocktails that we're talking about,

613
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: Like a good drink could reference a cold pressed apple

614
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 1: juice or a particularly nuanced green tea or something. Um.

615
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: But soft cocktails I'm kind of liking, yeah, because it

616
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: makes sense with like soft drinks tails sure, yeah, as

617
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: opposed to hard ones. Yeah. And you've written specifically about

618
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: mindful drinking culture before. Could you talk a little bit

619
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 1: about about that trend? Yeah? And so I think this

620
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 1: pertains more to low alcohol drinks than no alcohol drinks,

621
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 1: at least in my mind. So as the mindfulness movement

622
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: has entertained the mainstream, right, so too has this has

623
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: mindful drinking. And I wrote a story about this a

624
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: couple of years ago for a Playboy. And I talked

625
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: to Tristan Willie, who's a bartender in New York and

626
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: he um. He said that his customers at the Long

627
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,800
Speaker 1: Island Bar, which is a great bar in Brooklyn, um

628
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 1: kept making requests like I want a martini, but could

629
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 1: you put a little less booze in it? Um? And

630
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: which isn't why. I mean, that's an interesting increasing request,

631
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 1: and his sherry stock is depleting more quickly than ever

632
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 1: these days. So like sherry and other fortified wines are

633
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: relatively low and alcohol by volume they clock in at

634
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: like fifteen compared with gin, which runs about Um. I

635
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: think I have that right. So these lighter styles of

636
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 1: drinks are definitely trending. There the sprits category, um, which

637
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: is basically, you know, you have either and a pair

638
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: of teef like liquor like a Saint Germaine or a

639
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 1: bit or like an April or even a hard spirit

640
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: topped off with sparkling wine and some soda water. Um.

641
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: And I'm just seeing those everywhere, like are you yeah?

642
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 1: And like like Chelsea Handler, who's a famous drinker, can't

643
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: shut up about Aprile's versus on her Netflix show. I'm

644
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: like this, ok, okay, the vodka queen is drinking Approle's

645
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: versus something that's happening. Um. And they are delicious, yeah

646
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 1: they are. And and like it's sort of a cocktail summarized,

647
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it's light and bright and doesn't

648
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 1: weigh you down from the again the heavy amount of alcohol. Um.

649
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 1: And I think another piece of that for some is

650
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: that the low alcohol thing can also be about drinking more. Um.

651
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: Like like Okay, Matt Toco, he's the beverage director of

652
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 1: Strategic Hospitality that's in Nashville, and he said he has

653
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: the tolerance of a small gerbil um, but he likes

654
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 1: to try a lot of different things and so like

655
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: low alcohol drinks like an Americano made with campari and

656
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,240
Speaker 1: vermouth and club soda that works for him. UM. And

657
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: Tristan again who I mentioned um works at Long Island Bar,

658
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 1: like he serves many kind of snack sized negronis, so

659
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: you could have one of those before dinner and then

660
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: also have some wine with dinner and not feel um

661
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: floated down. And then like in Tokyo there's a spar

662
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: called jen Yamamoto and they offer Ohma Cosse flights of

663
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 1: four to six two ounce cocktails. UM. So again, I

664
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,399
Speaker 1: guess you can think of it as like drinking less

665
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: to drink more. And it's sort of like the top

666
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 1: us idea, right, like we are share plates, like we

667
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,959
Speaker 1: all we are palettes are more kind of open minded

668
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 1: than ever before. We want to try a bunch of

669
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 1: different things, and so if you have a little bits

670
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 1: of them or sharing them with a table you can

671
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: have you know, five dishes or taste five dishes instead

672
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: of two. Um, and it's kind of I'm seeing that

673
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: with drinks a little bit awesome. Yeah. I think I

674
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,399
Speaker 1: read somewhere that um some I can't remember anything about

675
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: it at all. Like the point of the story. It

676
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 1: was about a bartender New York and he was saying

677
00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:59,919
Speaker 1: a lot of business people come in and they want

678
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: to have like the whole culture is we've got to

679
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: have a drink together. But they don't want to get

680
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 1: wasted during a business meeting, so they have one real

681
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: drink and then they go real drink cocktail and then

682
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,240
Speaker 1: they go and get like just make it but without

683
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: the so I don't get drunk during this meeting. So

684
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: I think it's a miss people misunderstand, like they always

685
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 1: think it's pregnant women that are buying these drinks. But

686
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: there is a big market for it, and I think

687
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: the quicker that bars start experimenting with it and offering

688
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: these options some more money for them, Yeah, and hopefully overall,

689
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 1: like will become less ashamed to not drink. I mean

690
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: there's that sort of brow thing about the team. As

691
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 1: you were saying, these business people like that the guys

692
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 1: or girls who drink together, you know, work well together

693
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,839
Speaker 1: or whatever it is. I'm curious whether or not that

694
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: person asks the bartender to make the drink without booze

695
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: on the side. Yeah, I wondered that too. I this

696
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: this was a number of years ago, and it was

697
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 1: very much part of a like like post college bro

698
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 1: culture kind of group of friends that I had. But

699
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: they loved Yeager shots and I hate Hager and so

700
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: at this local bar that we went to, it turned

701
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 1: into this thing. Like I took the waitresses side one

702
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: day and I was like, can you give me a

703
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: shot of coke? And she was like yeah, and I'm

704
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: like I will tip you extra, thank you. And so

705
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: every time every time they ordered Yeager shots would be

706
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 1: like hey, wink wink, and she would bring me and

707
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 1: she would bring me a shot of Coca cola. So

708
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 1: I could do the shot with them and like be

709
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 1: included in the group and not have the like weird

710
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: stigma of like, oh, you're not doing a shot with us,

711
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 1: like all right, like whatever that is. And probably they

712
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 1: are more impressed because you went harder. Goodness. Well, I'm

713
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: interested in that stigma falling away for sure. And I

714
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,240
Speaker 1: think like there have been some great and a books

715
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: on the market that UM do address food pairings that

716
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: are thorough UM, but they're not cool huh. And I

717
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: think like I'm working with a friend of mine who's

718
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: an art director at wired UM who just has like

719
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 1: really great taste, and we're kind of you know. I

720
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: want to make the fonts and the images especially. I

721
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: want the images to be I hate using this word,

722
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: but I mean I want them to be pornographic. I

723
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 1: want to even get like really close on a glass

724
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: and show the beating and show the sort of like

725
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: color glowing phone within because historically this has not been

726
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 1: a sexy category. And so really with the design of

727
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: this book, I want to be like show how you know,

728
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: it's cool. It's cool to to like not be wasted.

729
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: It really is sounds cool to just enjoy enjoy what

730
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: you're drinking. Yeah, just only have like your options are

731
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: a coke or water, right, that's it. That's right. So

732
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 1: many friends that when when I was a kid, there

733
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,720
Speaker 1: was this restaurant UM. It was a local Mexican restaurant,

734
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 1: and they would always order the Shirley Temples and it

735
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 1: was so excited about it, so excited that I think

736
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: they would still order those if you could find them

737
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: they had more options. I can only imagine how happy they.

738
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: I love a Shirley Temple I ordered at as a

739
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 1: little girl. Wont my family and I would go out

740
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 1: to restaurants? Right, Yeah? There there will be one in

741
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: the book. There will be maybe in a coop. Yeah,

742
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: there is something. There is something. Oh, and I hate

743
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 1: myself and our culture a little bit for saying it,

744
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: but there is something sexy about having having one of those.

745
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 1: I mean in the elegant glass where you know, and

746
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,839
Speaker 1: it's beautiful and it's cold and there's the whole sensory thing,

747
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: but it's a beautiful prop you know, and like you

748
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 1: should absolutely drink any drinks in those glasses, right, yeah, totally. Well,

749
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining is Julia? How you

750
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: can people find you if they want to hear from

751
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 1: some more, some more from you. I am on Twitter

752
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: and Instagram as Julia Bainbridge, so that's j U L

753
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 1: A A B A N B R I D G

754
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 1: e UM and at Julia Bainbridge dot com you can

755
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 1: see a selection of my writing and then the Lonely

756
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: Hour is at the Lonely Hour dot com, or you

757
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 1: can find it on any of your podcatchers like stit,

758
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: Try Tunes, Google Play, blah blah blah blah blah. Awesome,

759
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:04,359
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. So that's our mock tail episode. Yes,

760
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,839
Speaker 1: we're still looking for better terminology if you if you've

761
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,240
Speaker 1: got any. And yeah, thank you to Julia for speaking

762
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 1: with us. She was fantastic. Absolutely, Yes, I go go

763
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 1: check out her other work and beat beyond the lookout

764
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 1: for that book. We will let you know all about it. Yeah,

765
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 1: and now it's time for listener man. Microphone became very

766
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: scary right then, it did. I I saw it happening,

767
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: and I backed away, backed away, back to away. You

768
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,839
Speaker 1: never know how it's gonna go, Laura wrote a few

769
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 1: years ago, I went on a special overnight tour on

770
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,840
Speaker 1: the Golden Hint, a replica of Sir Francis Drake's ship,

771
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: which circumnavigated the globe in fifteventy seven to eight. Our

772
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: guides shared with us a number of interesting facts, include

773
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: ing where the term three square meals a day came from.

774
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: I never read. I forgot all about that. Yeah. As

775
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 1: part of their contracts, Tutor sailors were promised three square

776
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 1: meals per day, which were served on square wooden plates.

777
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 1: These plates were square so that they would fit snugly

778
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 1: in their box and wouldn't rattle around as round plates

779
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 1: would on a sea voyage. The plates were thick with

780
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,280
Speaker 1: circular centers scooped out to a standard size to ensure

781
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 1: that each sailor got the correct amount of food. I

782
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: don't know if this standard measurement for sailors had an

783
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 1: impact on the number of meals we tend to eat

784
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 1: per day, or if the custom was already established. Interesting

785
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 1: done the list, Yeah yeah, Caleb wrote, I am so

786
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: happy you guys covered the etymology of dinner on your

787
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: episode Three Meals a Day A Learning the proper meaning

788
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,320
Speaker 1: of the word dinner was a small but memorable moment

789
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,320
Speaker 1: that has stayed with me since childhood. I've been waiting

790
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 1: for such a long time to bring this up because

791
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: it's a Christmas story, So here it goes. We live

792
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: on we it It's okay, Caleb. My family has one

793
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 1: very large meal on Christmas Morning, consisting of a smorgeseport

794
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,359
Speaker 1: of Southern foods and dishes. This meal happens approximately mid

795
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 1: day and is really the only meal we eat that day.

796
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 1: Since we have now established the dinner refers to the

797
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: main or largest meal of the day, and this one

798
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 1: consists of breakfast food. The most appropriate name for this

799
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: is Brenner. And since this meal happens on Christmas Day,

800
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: I have elected to call it. Are you ready you'll Brenner?

801
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 1: Oh that is glorious. It is so good. Thank you, Yes,

802
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:42,399
Speaker 1: thank you. We love receiving any type of bad joke.

803
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 1: Absolutely so. Yes, we really very much appreciate it. Thank

804
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: you do both of them for writing in. If you

805
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 1: would like to write to us, you can do so.

806
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: Our email is food Stuff at houstafor dot com. We're

807
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: also on social media. We even check it sometimes and

808
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: respond there. Of Facebook and Twitter profiles are at food

809
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: stuff hs W and on Instagram we are at food Stuff.

810
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: We hope to hear from you. Thank you as always

811
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 1: to our super producer Dylan ca Fagan, I did get

812
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: your middle initial right, didn't I? I did? Indeed, I'm

813
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 1: winning today, thanks to you for listening, and we hope

814
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 1: that lots more good things are coming your way.