Speaker 1: Hi, This is Milan Vervie and this is Kim Azarelli.
Speaker 1: We are co authors of the book Fast Forward, How
Speaker 1: Women Can Achieve Power and Purpose. And you're listening to
Speaker 1: Seneca Women Conversations on Power and Purpose, brought to you
Speaker 1: by the Seneca Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: Katie Kirk is one of the most successful women in media.
Speaker 1: She was the first woman to solo anchor a nightly
Speaker 1: TV newscast, and for fifteen years she was the incredibly
Speaker 1: popular co anchor of NBC's Today Show. Katie has broken news,
Speaker 1: made headlines, and one just about every journalism award possible,
Speaker 1: and she's done that while overcoming the gender bias that
Speaker 1: has pervaded much of broadcast media. Katie sat down with
Speaker 1: Milan during Seneca Woman Forum at the New York Stock Exchange.
Speaker 1: Listen to their conversation and hear how Katie deals with
Speaker 1: the boys Club, how she handles critics, and why she's
Speaker 1: now focusing on creating quality content with purpose driven partners,
Speaker 1: and stick around after the conversation to hear our top takeaways.
Speaker 1: We'll be back after this break. I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: the holy thing between you all in a cocktail. I
Speaker 1: feel really bad about this, but Hi, You're gonna be
Speaker 1: so glad that you're here. We've been talking about transforming culture,
Speaker 1: and I think there are a few people who have
Speaker 1: had such an impact on our culture as you have.
Speaker 1: Katie Couric, so welcome, and it's just right to have
Speaker 1: you here. You know, I's thinking. I spent my mornings
Speaker 1: with you for fifteen years in a row, and you
Speaker 1: were the whole anchor of the Today Show. And when
Speaker 1: we look at your achievements from best selling author to
Speaker 1: award winning journalists to the co founder of Stand Up
Speaker 1: to Cancer, that organization within ten years has raised a
Speaker 1: half a billion dollars for scientists and researchers. That's extraordinary. Ah.
Speaker 1: You know, these are the kinds of things we don't
Speaker 1: know about her, And now she's uh the head of
Speaker 1: Katie Cork Media, working on really extraordinary topics that are
Speaker 1: so important and which you are bringing to our attention
Speaker 1: and hopefully that we will respond to uh in ways
Speaker 1: that we should care more about them. Um, But I
Speaker 1: want to start with you're becoming the first female anchor
Speaker 1: of a major network evening news and I know from
Speaker 1: what I've heard from you in the past that it
Speaker 1: was not the easiest job. It was fraught with challenges.
Speaker 1: In fact, I think you referred to the boys club
Speaker 1: and that might be something but the women in the
Speaker 1: corporate sector can understand. But but what made it so challenging? Well,
Speaker 1: I think this, Well, first of all, hi everyone, I'm
Speaker 1: so happy to see you all and nice to be here. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, this was two thousand six, and you know,
Speaker 1: I think I was pretty naive. I've been naive, I
Speaker 1: think several times throughout my life and career. But I thought,
Speaker 1: you know, you hear about post racial. I sort of
Speaker 1: thought we were post sexist because I had had such
Speaker 1: a prominent position on the Today Show, I had seniority. Uh.
Speaker 1: Matt was sort of believed it or not a little
Speaker 1: bit of the second banana to me because I had
Speaker 1: been there longer than he had and he deferred to
Speaker 1: me at times, not always. And that's a whole another Operah.
Speaker 1: We're not going to get into, um, but it would
Speaker 1: be interesting. You can read about it in my book,
Speaker 1: which is coming out in about a year. I'm working
Speaker 1: on it right now. But um, you know, I think
Speaker 1: that networks have personalities, and at the time, CBS was
Speaker 1: I think the most sort of old fashioned, traditional, insulated network.
Speaker 1: I think people kind of bleed CBS. They stay there
Speaker 1: for their entire career, and it was just very male dominated.
Speaker 1: I think also, uh, you know, I was the first
Speaker 1: female solo anchor of a newscast and you can't really,
Speaker 1: I think overestimate what a shock to the collective system
Speaker 1: of viewers that was. You know, I was just a
Speaker 1: very different animal. I was different than I wasn't raised
Speaker 1: in the CBS culture. I think the CBS viewer was
Speaker 1: a little more traditional and conserve TV. And I was
Speaker 1: brought in by less move as, which is another oprah.
Speaker 1: How many men can I mention in this conversation, And
Speaker 1: then there was Charlie Rose. But anyway, so so um,
Speaker 1: you know, and I think that uh that that people
Speaker 1: weren't really accustomed to me, and even you know, I remember,
Speaker 1: I'm so happy that Nora O'Donnell is getting support from
Speaker 1: fellow journalist female especially and also has Susan Zarinsky at
Speaker 1: the Helm And I think that's real proof about of
Speaker 1: the importance of having women and leadership positions because they
Speaker 1: set the tone. I think they're more supportive, they get
Speaker 1: each other more, and I think from the get go.
Speaker 1: I'm happy that Nora, I think, is going to have
Speaker 1: a much easier transition, not only because she's been at
Speaker 1: CBS for a while, but because she has someone like
Speaker 1: Susan Zarinsky at the helm. But I remember doing the
Speaker 1: first broadcast and and uh, just that, I think because
Speaker 1: it was so novel to see a woman at the
Speaker 1: anchor desk. They you know, talked about the fact that
Speaker 1: I wore a winter white jacket after Labor Day and
Speaker 1: I'm like, God, damn it, it's tropical weight wool and
Speaker 1: it's our Armani people. And I spent more on that
Speaker 1: coat than I spent on anything in my entire life.
Speaker 1: And you know, my hair, my makeup, even Nora from
Speaker 1: which I thought was such a betrayal of my you know,
Speaker 1: sisterhood that you know, she trashed my makeup and I
Speaker 1: was like, seriously, makes she rest in peace, But Nora Fron,
Speaker 1: why are you doing that? So I realized I was like, Wow,
Speaker 1: we are not as evolved as I thought we were.
Speaker 1: And so for all of those reasons, and I also
Speaker 1: think they thought I was this kind of you know,
Speaker 1: like lipting cup of soup, you add me stir and
Speaker 1: the ratings just miraculously went through the roof. But those
Speaker 1: things take time and nurturing, and I think when they
Speaker 1: saw that it wasn't kind of instant rating success and
Speaker 1: that they'd have to be in it for the long haul,
Speaker 1: I don't think they knew how to do that. Um.
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, I probably made some mistakes too.
Speaker 1: I probably didn't ingratiate myself, uh with some of the
Speaker 1: people who had been there for a long time. I
Speaker 1: brought a few people with me from NBC. I mean,
Speaker 1: you study industrial psychology. I think people felt very threatened
Speaker 1: and insecure about their own positions, which I totally can understand. UM.
Speaker 1: So you know, I'm really proud of the work I did.
Speaker 1: I was there for five years, we won a ton
Speaker 1: of awards. I kind of just powered through. UM. You know,
Speaker 1: I think my interview with Sarah Palin was very impactful.
Speaker 1: You're welcome, um, and and so a lot of the
Speaker 1: work I did there I'm extremely proud of. And but
Speaker 1: it was it was a challenge at times. But I'm
Speaker 1: wondering listening to you and your mention of Nora and
Speaker 1: now coming in as the second in that position as CBS,
Speaker 1: but that CBS, I am to write, but but has
Speaker 1: the landscape changed that much? As representation changed that much?
Speaker 1: I have some statistics here that really makes me wonder
Speaker 1: are we making progress? You know, I think you when
Speaker 1: you watch television, you watch cable news, I pay attention
Speaker 1: to diversity and the number of women, and to make
Speaker 1: sure I do think outwardly we're making some progress. The
Speaker 1: Women's Media Center, though, I think those are the stats
Speaker 1: you're referring to. Milan shows that men still overwhelmingly are
Speaker 1: dominating the media landscape. And I think what's what is
Speaker 1: the most important thing is what I mentioned earlier, that
Speaker 1: we need more women in leadership positions. You know, Susan
Speaker 1: Zarinski is now the head of of CBS News, the woman.
Speaker 1: There's a female who's the had of Fox News. But
Speaker 1: in terms of uh, you know, other networks, it's still
Speaker 1: very male dominated. At the executive producer level, I think
Speaker 1: is still very male dominated. And this was the women
Speaker 1: Meeting Women's Media Center, uh, their latest survey that was
Speaker 1: done in two thousand nineteen. So I think, you know,
Speaker 1: only when you have true decision making opportunities. I think
Speaker 1: oftentimes leadership positions are put to prop up the guy
Speaker 1: who is in the leadership position. You know, they're not
Speaker 1: quite at the very top. And I think many of
Speaker 1: the men are interested in maintaining the status quo. So
Speaker 1: I think we have a lot of work to be
Speaker 1: done in that that department. And I don't want to
Speaker 1: have to just wait for these guys to die for
Speaker 1: it to change, nor do we. But but most of
Speaker 1: these statistics basically showed that, um, if we're lucky, we've
Speaker 1: broken in terms of the various categories of news anchors
Speaker 1: and wire writers and social media writers, etcetera. Um, And
Speaker 1: I think what Gina Davis has been doing looking at
Speaker 1: how women are portrayed in movies for example, uh, and
Speaker 1: the fact that in any crowd scene were of the
Speaker 1: population right, but the crowd scenes typically are thirty percent.
Speaker 1: So it's like stuck at and that's real progress. It's yeah,
Speaker 1: clearly we have a way to go. It's very insidious
Speaker 1: to you know. I did an hour on gender inequality
Speaker 1: for a series I did for National Geographic called America
Speaker 1: Inside Out. It's on Hulu. I highly recommendedly Ladies and Gentlemen. Uh.
Speaker 1: And I took a look at various social issues from
Speaker 1: Confederate statues to white anxiety and sort of what's going
Speaker 1: on in in the rust Belt and this transition to
Speaker 1: a more technological economy. I looked at what it's like
Speaker 1: to be a Muslim in America, uh, political correctness on
Speaker 1: college campuses and beyond, and one of them was a
Speaker 1: real deep dive into gender inequality, and we talked about
Speaker 1: all these issues. I went to Harvard and took the
Speaker 1: implicit association test that Mustering Banagi administers, and by the way,
Speaker 1: I crushed it. I have no bias, thank you. I
Speaker 1: think I kind of gained it because I sort of
Speaker 1: figured out, but I still don't. I think I'm pretty
Speaker 1: I was aware, Oh, you're trying to associate gardening with women.
Speaker 1: I'm not doing that. So um but women are are
Speaker 1: actually more biased than men in that implicit association test,
Speaker 1: which is interesting. But um, you know, I I interview
Speaker 1: Gina for that. We talked a lot about imagery and
Speaker 1: one of the movies we looked at they worked with
Speaker 1: Google to kind of quantify the role of women in
Speaker 1: movies and even shockingly hidden figures, is uh, you know,
Speaker 1: the male dialogue is more than the female dialogu if
Speaker 1: you can believe that so there are things that really
Speaker 1: have to start out from the writer's level. And in
Speaker 1: that hour, Lan I went and visited ju V Productions,
Speaker 1: which is Biola Davis and Julian's her husband's production company,
Speaker 1: to get more diversity in the pipeline and from the
Speaker 1: get go, and we're sitting around the table and it
Speaker 1: was a very diverse group of people and one of
Speaker 1: the African American producers, I said, it's probably important that
Speaker 1: you do that. Writers don't specify who's going to play
Speaker 1: a certain role. I think some people were talking about this.
Speaker 1: He said, that's right. You know, for a doctor, he
Speaker 1: could be African American or whatever. And I said, but look,
Speaker 1: you just made him into a heat He could be
Speaker 1: a woman too. So even people who are working in
Speaker 1: this space have this, this kind of implicit bias that's
Speaker 1: the result of years and years of cultural conditioning and
Speaker 1: years and years of images, you know, being inundated with images.
Speaker 1: And that's really why I wanted to be the anchor
Speaker 1: of the CBS Evening News. I wanted little boys and
Speaker 1: little girls to see that a woman can do that
Speaker 1: job confidently and competently, and that you know, it wouldn't
Speaker 1: be such a novelty and hopefully we'll get more and
Speaker 1: more women in these leadership positions. And also I had
Speaker 1: such an impact on the stories we covered. You know,
Speaker 1: I would say, I want to do a story on
Speaker 1: dating violence after Yardley Love was murdered at the University
Speaker 1: of Virginia where I went to school and Sharon went
Speaker 1: as well, and you know I wanted to do I
Speaker 1: want to do a series on sexual assault in the military.
Speaker 1: You know, these are all stories that were coming from
Speaker 1: me that a lot of my male counterparts would never
Speaker 1: think of. But you know, a different perspective gives a
Speaker 1: lot more balance. And and that's why diversity inclusions, socioeconomic diversity,
Speaker 1: racial diversity, all kinds of diversity are so important because
Speaker 1: everyone has a from perspective and power imbalances. You know,
Speaker 1: I think for all of the success of the Me
Speaker 1: Too movement, unless we change some of these power imbalances,
Speaker 1: we're going to continue to have these kinds of problems
Speaker 1: and those kinds of problems. Um but let me ask you,
Speaker 1: because we were having a vigorous discussion in the green
Speaker 1: room and we have I don't like looking at that
Speaker 1: clock over there, but just really really quickly topic that
Speaker 1: could take hours. How is it for the journalist today
Speaker 1: with this changing media? I think what's really hard is
Speaker 1: the proliferation of media outlets. Some are very legitimate doing
Speaker 1: incredible work, some are less so, and they all get
Speaker 1: kind of lumped together. I mean, I don't know how
Speaker 1: many times I've gone to my iPhone and clicked on
Speaker 1: something and I have no idea the media outlet, and
Speaker 1: I read it and I'm like, what or I see that?
Speaker 1: You know, I'm reading I see a thing about I
Speaker 1: keep getting joy Behar's last words? Why am I getting
Speaker 1: that on my phone? You know, I mean, just the
Speaker 1: weirdest stuff, and things get repeated, you know, journalism, for
Speaker 1: the number of people in newsrooms because of economic concerns,
Speaker 1: are shrinking, and then people are just rewriting other people's
Speaker 1: stories and they're not necessarily going through an editor or
Speaker 1: any vetting problem process. So I mean, I think there's
Speaker 1: a lot of things that are really problematic about the
Speaker 1: journalistic landscape. And you know, when I was doing the
Speaker 1: Today Show, I started in nine and you if you
Speaker 1: wanted to know what was going on in the world,
Speaker 1: you turned on the radio, or you got your morning paper,
Speaker 1: you know, hard copy or you turned on one of
Speaker 1: the networks to kind of get the latest news. Now
Speaker 1: there are just a million places to get it. My
Speaker 1: daughters never turn on the television. They listen to podcasts.
Speaker 1: They go to their phones and look at the New
Speaker 1: York Times or the Washington Post or my newsletter, which
Speaker 1: by the way, you all need to subscribe to. You
Speaker 1: just have to text four seven four seven four seven,
Speaker 1: and then you write Katie and then you sign up.
Speaker 1: And I'll make your life much easier because I curate
Speaker 1: all the tsunami of information that we're accosted by every day,
Speaker 1: and I thought you've gotten today just getting that. But anyway,
Speaker 1: so it's it's it's tough. And I also think, you know,
Speaker 1: the medialy, it's so bifurcated. There are too many people
Speaker 1: giving their opinions, and you know, people are getting affirmation,
Speaker 1: not information. They're getting their own reviews, views reflected back
Speaker 1: at them. And it's a very sad state of affairs
Speaker 1: when my friends say they watched the BBC to get
Speaker 1: an objective view of what's going on in the world.
Speaker 1: And I just think, sometimes, you know, even though I
Speaker 1: might agree with some people more than others, I just
Speaker 1: want to hear what's going on, and I don't want
Speaker 1: people to roll their eyes or sigh or her romph
Speaker 1: or you know, just carry on that way. And I
Speaker 1: gone social media news organizations should not should be really
Speaker 1: careful with their reporters tweet or put out there because
Speaker 1: there should be some appearance of objectivity. And even though
Speaker 1: our time is up, I'm going to ask you, um
Speaker 1: about your media company and what kinds of projects you're
Speaker 1: involved in now, because we're all eager to hear whether
Speaker 1: Katie go as next. So, um, well, what kinds of
Speaker 1: topics are you are you looking at, well working on?
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's actually quite Germaine to the
Speaker 1: previous conversations, but I'm not gonna I'm going to give
Speaker 1: you guys the abridge version. Um. Basically, you know, I've
Speaker 1: done so many things in my career, but I love
Speaker 1: to work. I'm a little crazy. I just I love
Speaker 1: to be engaged in the world and take part in big,
Speaker 1: important conversations. So about a year ago I started the
Speaker 1: very originally named Katie currct Media and you know I
Speaker 1: were I care about a lot of important issues. I
Speaker 1: care about gender and gender equality, I care about environmental sustainability.
Speaker 1: I care about criminal justice reform. I care about all
Speaker 1: kinds of issues that companies now care about as well.
Speaker 1: The Edleman Trust Parometer. I don't know if anyone mentioned
Speaker 1: this today, but seventy of employees look to their CEO
Speaker 1: s to take a stand on important issues and look
Speaker 1: to their companies to to usher and change instead of
Speaker 1: the government. As trust in the government and media institutions
Speaker 1: has declined faith in companies, which is sort of ironic.
Speaker 1: If you grew up, you know where the companies were
Speaker 1: the enemies and big big business was bad. But now
Speaker 1: actually big business is really seen as a source for
Speaker 1: good and and to change hearts and minds. And again
Speaker 1: always cognizant of the importance of images in terms of
Speaker 1: what people see. If you can't see it, you can't
Speaker 1: be it. And that's why I wanted to do the
Speaker 1: Evening News. That's why I said to Bryant Gumbel, I'm
Speaker 1: not doing this job unless there's a fifty fifty division
Speaker 1: of labor because I don't want to be seen as
Speaker 1: the cute girl who does does fashion shows and cooking segments.
Speaker 1: I covered the Pentagon. I know my stuff, I'm smart,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be the second Banana. And so
Speaker 1: I'm working with with companies to do digital series documentaries,
Speaker 1: um you know, working with Ally Financial, Rally Hells, people
Speaker 1: who you know. I care deeply about medical issues because
Speaker 1: of my cancer work, and so I'm creating what I
Speaker 1: think is really important content that will help address some
Speaker 1: of the issues that aren't being really covered in mainstream
Speaker 1: media because they're too busy covering sort of the drama
Speaker 1: of the day. And it's a way for me to
Speaker 1: continue to have a voice. I've done a lot of documentaries.
Speaker 1: I did one called fed Up on Childhood, obe City
Speaker 1: under the Gun about gun violence, gender revolution, about our
Speaker 1: changing notion of gender identity and uh and to help
Speaker 1: people understand that new complicated arena. And so this is
Speaker 1: really a continuation of my desire to do content that
Speaker 1: really matters that people hopefully will be uh you know,
Speaker 1: enlightened by, and will illuminate the very complicated and ever
Speaker 1: changing world we're living in. So the only thing we
Speaker 1: can all say is you go girl, thank you, because
Speaker 1: you know, thank you for caring, thank you for being
Speaker 1: crazy busy, Thank you Katie, thanks and having you all
Speaker 1: so much. Stay tuned for our takeaways after this break.
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed that conversation with the incredible Katie Kirk.
Speaker 1: Check out Katie Kurrek dot com to find Katie's newsletter,
Speaker 1: podcast and more our top takeaways. First, we need more
Speaker 1: women in leadership positions at the major media outlets. As
Speaker 1: Katie says, a woman's perspective can balance the way stores
Speaker 1: are told and can help eliminate the unconscious bias that
Speaker 1: often creeps into reporting. Second, we need to become more
Speaker 1: aware of this unconscious bias so that we can recognize
Speaker 1: it and address it. Lastly, although women are half the population,
Speaker 1: women's voices are still underrepresented in media. We at Seneca
Speaker 1: Women are committed to amplifying women's voices, as we know
Speaker 1: that progress for women is progress for all. You're listening
Speaker 1: to Seneca Women Conversations on Power and Purpose, brought to
Speaker 1: you by the Seneca Women Podcast Network and I Heart
Speaker 1: ray Do with support from founding partner P and G.
Speaker 1: Listen to Seneca Women Conversations on Power and Purpose on
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Speaker 1: Seneca Women, follow us on social media, visit our website
Speaker 1: Seneca Women dot com, and check out the Seneca Women app,
Speaker 1: free in the app Store. Have a great day.