WEBVTT - Great Courses: Shinnecock Hills 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.040 Shinnecock Hills Golf Club, as designed by William Flynn in 0:00:04.120 --> 0:00:07.120 nineteen thirty one, is one of the greatest golf courses 0:00:07.120 --> 0:00:10.280 in the world, and today we're going deep on it. 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:14.000 I'm Garrett Morrison, and this is designing. 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:22.760 Golf, all right. 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:25.080 Later in this episode, I'm going to bring on the 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:29.040 golf historian Bob Crosby, and we're going to talk about 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:33.400 the early history of the design at Shinnecock Hills. Basically, 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:37.080 the course went through a few different very interesting iterations 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:40.920 before it's settled on its current form, and I would argue, 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:44.239 Bob would argue that the story of Shinnacock in its 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:48.080 early years was basically the story of American golf architecture. 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:51.400 So we'll get into all of that in the second 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:55.320 half of the episode with Bob Crosby. But the first 0:00:55.320 --> 0:00:58.960 thing I want to talk about is what makes Shinnacock 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:04.399 Hills golf course. And it is a really great golf course. 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:07.840 But that's not because it is hosted US opens, or 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:12.120 because it's difficult, or because it's an exclusive club. It's 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:17.959 because there are qualities inherent to its land, design and 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:22.920 presentation that make it great. So in this episode, We're 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:27.160 going to go through six big factors that explain why 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:30.280 we love Shinnakok Hills. And to help me do that, 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:34.800 I've brought on my Friday Golf colleague, Matt Rusius. Matt 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:36.760 how's gone. 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:39.440 Doing well, doing well, Just gearing up for a trip 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:43.720 to Ireland in a few days, so talking American Links 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:46.479 golf is fitting absolutely. 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:47.800 Where are you going in Ireland? 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:52.040 I'll be headed to the southwest side, so making stops 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:56.960 at places cycle hinch Belly, Bunyon, Waterville, dune Bag. So 0:01:57.280 --> 0:01:58.400 really looking forward to that. 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:02.480 Not bad courses. I'm actually going to Northwest Ireland in 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:05.400 a few days for a Friday Golf club trip. So 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:08.720 it's work, but it's obviously going to be very fun 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:12.959 as well. So we're both setting off for Ireland very soon. 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:15.920 First we're talking about Hinnacock Hills, which is actually you know, 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:19.960 if you're looking for a course in the US that 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:24.400 resembles somewhat in Irish Links, Hinnacock Hills might not be 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:27.919 a million miles away. So first of all, some basics 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:31.040 on the golf course. The club was founded in eighteen 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:34.520 ninety one by some very well off New Yorkers, including 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:37.840 a member of the Vanderbilt family. Of course, it was 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:41.080 one of the first movers in American golf, so it 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:44.560 claims to be the oldest incorporated golf club in the 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:48.920 US and to have the oldest dedicated golf clubhouse in 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:51.799 the US. The clubhouse was built in eighteen ninety two. 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:55.959 As I've mentioned, I'll talk more about the early development 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:58.919 of the golf course with Bob Crosby later in this episode, 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:02.680 but basically the first twelve holes were constructed in eighteen 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:07.280 ninety one. The first eighteen was completed in eighteen ninety five. 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:11.280 About twenty years later, CB McDonald and Seth Rayner revised 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:14.799 the course, but all of those versions of Shinnecock Hills 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:19.360 are now gone because in the late nineteen twenties the 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:23.360 club purchased new land and hired William Flynn to build 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:27.040 a new course in that course, which is basically today's 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:31.639 Shinnecock Hills. Opened in nineteen thirty one. Shinnecock hosted its 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:35.839 first US Open in eighteen ninety six. This is now 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:40.120 recognized as the second ever US Open, and that was 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:44.960 obviously played over the earliest version of the eighteen hole course, 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:50.480 so pre McDonald, pre Flynn really didn't resemble today's course 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:53.680 at all, and then the club didn't host another US 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:58.080 Open for the next ninety years. Basically, it came back 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:02.280 in nineteen eighty six. Ever since then it has staged 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:06.840 a US Open about every decade, so nineteen ninety five, 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:10.840 two thousand and four, twenty eighteen, and of course this 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:15.560 year twenty twenty six. So if rankings mean anything to you, 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:19.799 shinnakaka Is is consistently ranked as a top five golf 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:22.919 course in the US. It's up there with with Cyprus 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:26.000 and Pine Valley and Augusta. You know, pretty much everybody 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:30.719 agrees that it belongs in that top tier. And over 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:32.760 the past few decades the club has done a lot 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:37.040 of good work to maintain that reputation. They've they've removed 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:42.719 thousands of trees to reinstate the property's essential Lynksland character, 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:46.359 and they've worked with Corn Crenshaw over the past twelve 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:50.760 years or so to bring back certain details of William 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:54.680 Flynn's design. But on the whole, the course was pretty 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:59.880 well preserved over time. Aside from you know, tree pl 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:04.039 planting and mowing lines, it really never strayed too far 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:07.640 from its roots. So those are the basics. Let's get 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:11.839 into the six factors that make Shinnecock Hills a great 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:15.520 golf course. In our opinion, at least, the first big 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:20.560 factor has to be the land. The property sits pretty 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:24.560 near the eastern tip of Long Island, right between the 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:27.720 Great Peconic Bay to the north and the Atlantic Ocean 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:31.960 to the south. It consists essentially of glacial outwash. A 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:37.120 bunch of sand came in from the glaciers and was 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:41.880 deposited in this spot and kind of blown into these dramatic, 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:46.920 undulating configurations. It's Lynx land effectively. I would say it's 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:50.680 one of the purest lynx land of properties you'll find 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:54.440 in the US. Those certain parts of it have a 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:57.760 little more clay than others. So what do you make 0:05:57.800 --> 0:05:59.960 of the of the land at Chinnacock. 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.880 I think the thing that makes the land so great 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:09.960 is how it's almost uniformly good. The quality of the 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:14.440 land is so uniformly good across the entire site. Now, 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:18.600 while I'm saying that there are very much more dramatic 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:21.800 sections of the land, I feel like, in a general 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:25.560 sense kind of the closer you get to the clubhouse, 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:29.480 the more dramatic the dunes are there's kind of a 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:32.360 huge main ridge line that the clubhouse sits up on, 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:35.680 and it kind of follows that. I believe it's the 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:40.360 Tuckahoe Road, which kind of goes between the fourteenth hole 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:41.920 and the thirteenth hole, so there's a kind of a 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:45.359 massive ridge line there, and then another massive ridge line 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:48.760 that kind of goes along the tenth hole and the 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:52.200 eleventh green sits on top of. So really that section 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:54.960 kind of to the right of the clubhouse if you're 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:57.440 looking out over the course and like kind of the 0:06:57.480 --> 0:06:59.800 beginning in the back nine is some of the most 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:04.360 ramatic terrain and it's very very undulating, which produces these 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:06.960 kind of truly one of a kind of golf holes. 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:09.960 And then the closer you get towards kind of the 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:13.559 bay to the north, the land starts to mellow out. 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:17.160 But while I say that, like it does mellow out, 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.480 it gets flatter, but it's still tremendous golfing ground with 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:25.240 lots of intricissies, good roles and contours and the fairways 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:28.360 that kind of great strategy and interest on a lot 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.160 of those holes, but maybe just a little bit less 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:34.720 eye catching and less dramatic kind of the further away 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:35.920 you get from the clubhouse. 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:40.120 Yeah, I would say there are actually three sections of 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:43.880 terrain at Shinnacock that I could identify. You've talked about 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:48.120 the two main ones, which are the very dramatic highlands, 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:54.040 which basically holds nine through fifteen and eighteen occupy this 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:57.400 big ridge that Tuckahoe Road goes over that the clubhouse 0:07:57.440 --> 0:07:58.360 is built on top of. 0:07:59.080 --> 0:07:59.760 All of these. 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:03.360 Holes play kind of most of them play along the 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:06.440 side of that ridge, right, are kind of clinging to 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:10.480 the edge of it. Some play up on top of it, 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:14.480 and you know, this is obviously the best land at Shittacock. 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:19.160 Then you have the lowland section which you're describing, still 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:23.960 good still you know, some contour, but not nearly as 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:28.200 impressive as the other land. And in fact some sections 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:32.160 of it are almost dead flat. But those sections are 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:37.040 generally not used for golf holes. That's really striking how 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:40.720 you look at the holes themselves, and most of the 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:43.760 holes in that lower section of the property, the flatter section, 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:50.439 do have you know, some good role to them, whereas 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:52.199 if you look just to the side of the fairway 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.560 it might be completely flat. So obviously Flynn was able 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:59.560 to find the best sections of that slightly inferior section 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:01.839 of the prom but basically this is where it holds 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:08.679 four through eight and sixteen through seventeen are right. Then 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:12.839 I think there's a third section which is these softly 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:17.199 rolling midlands right which have a little bit more elevation 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:19.240 change to them, and that to me is the first 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:23.440 three holes. The first hole tease off from the ridge obviously, 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:26.400 but I think most of the hole sits in this 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:32.560 in this kind of more broadly moving area of the property, 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:35.480 because it's not to me, those first three holes don't 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:38.520 really occupy the lowlands. They're they're not as flat as that, 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:42.280 but it's also not highlight it's not it's not the 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:46.679 you know, super chaotic stuff either, and that's the section 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:49.839 of the property. Interestingly, that's closest to National Golf Links. 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:52.960 National Golf Links is right next door to that, and 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:55.880 if you're familiar with those holes at the kind of 0:09:56.000 --> 0:10:00.160 turn of the out and back configuration of National Golf Links, 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:04.120 then you kind of know what this land is like 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:09.120 where there's elevation change and there's there's some undulation, but 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:12.280 it's very broad slopes. So there are some holes at 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:15.280 Chinnecock that occupy that as well. But yeah, so you 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:17.560 have these you have these different sections of the property 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:20.880 and all all of the sections of the property have 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:24.440 something going for them, right, and good land is found 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:27.360 within them, right. Yeah. 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:29.840 And I think another thing that's kind of interesting to 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.360 look at is on the flatter terrain you get a 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:36.880 lot more bunkering and these kind of more expansive sandy 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:39.920 waste areas. If you just pull up Google Earth and 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:42.440 quickly glance at it, like you can kind of see 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:46.000 there's this almost diagonal effect across the property is more 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:48.480 sand up on the top left corner and a little 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:52.240 bit less and smaller bunkers towards the more dramatic land. 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:55.600 So it's really cool to see how Finns able to 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:59.160 really maximize the use on the best land and then 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:02.480 maybe have a little bit more built features kind of 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:05.640 guiding the strategy on the lamb that's slightly less interesting. 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:10.679 Yeah, absolutely, Yeah. And also the greens are much more 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:16.439 built up and manufactured the less dramatic parts of the property. 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:19.920 Think of the Seventh Green is the most obvious example 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:21.520 of that, where it's just you know, it kind of 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:24.440 sits on a nothing green site. There's not much there 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:26.640 to tie into. You know, if you look to the 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:29.839 right of the seventh green, there there is a nice 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:32.800 swale there that the green kind of ties into visually 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:35.440 at least, but mostly it just sits on sits on 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:38.280 a flat stretch of ground. But that green is so 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:42.640 severely built up it really stands out among the other 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:45.720 holes at Shinnecock. And if you look at the greens 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:49.320 for five and six as well, on those flatter sections 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:52.480 of the property, those are pretty dramatic too. So it's 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:55.400 obvious that Flynn turned up the dial a little bit 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:59.040 when he was given ground that wasn't giving him quite 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:03.360 as much. So very well executed design in that way. 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.559 The fundamentals are there, all right. The second big factor 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:11.960 that I want to talk about is the elements, especially 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:17.480 the wind in relation to William Flynn's routing. So the 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:20.880 summer wind at Shinnecock comes out of the kind of 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:24.440 south southwest part of the compass. A good way to 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:27.760 orient yourself with the map of the course is to 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:30.760 look at the fifth hole and remember that the fifth 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:34.920 hole plays basically directly downwind, So that's the that's the 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:38.040 wind direction at Shinnacock, and the routing is really built 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:40.920 for that specific wind direction. It was It's obvious that 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:44.440 William Flynn had that wind direction in mind when he 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:48.360 built the course. Apparently, the winter wind is just it's 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:50.360 kind of it's kind of miserable to play the course 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:53.280 in it because it doesn't click together in the same 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:57.840 way that the routing does for the summer wind. In general, 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.760 the shorter par four play into the wind and the 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:05.959 longer par fours play downwind. But the course is constantly 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:09.880 changing direction, right. You can never settle into a groove 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:13.040 with the wind and the way it's affecting your ball. 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:16.920 It changes with every single shot. And this is partly 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:22.440 because of Flynn's heavy reliance on dog leg holes, and 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:28.280 it's also partly because he uses triangles really cleverly in 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:33.040 this routing. So Shinnacock basically has these three groupings of 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:36.920 three to four holes that form triangles in the routing. 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:41.360 So look at holes four through six, ten through thirteen, 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:46.120 and fourteen through sixteen. Each of these sequences is arranged 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:50.240 in a big triangle, and that means that nothing is 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:53.840 linear essentially in relation to the wind. You're never moving 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:58.079 straight ahead from hole to hole, and you're hardly ever 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:03.280 even moving like parallel or at right angles from hole 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:08.760 to hole. It's always these funky triangular angles, and that's 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:13.280 just a great test of the player's ability to adjust 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:17.320 to the wind from shot to shot. So anything to 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:21.000 add about the elements and the routing at Chinnaicog. 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:26.200 Yeah, so you kind of noted that the triangle holes, 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:29.720 and I know you're probably talking to Bob about this, 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:32.360 but one thing to note about it is kind of 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:36.720 the back nine, which was originally the front nine when 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:39.680 Flynn designed, it was all kind of new land that 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:42.200 they had gotten, so you get a lot of those 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:46.080 triangles that he specifically designed, whereas the front nine he 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:50.920 was more so adapting the old CEB McDonald course to 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:54.080 his new kind of designs. So you only get like 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:57.840 these two whole stretches where you have holes kind of 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:00.280 playing in the same direction, and that's holes two and 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:03.280 three and then seven and eight are kind of the 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:05.880 only two holes and those are both kind of sections 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:09.320 of the course where they kind of adapted the new 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:12.880 William Flynn design to the old ZB McDonald design. So 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:15.800 I find that interesting how you kind of have these 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:18.520 two different dynamics on the front nine and back nine 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:21.760 is where on the back nine, you're constantly changing direction, 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:25.360 and like you said, you're never playing straight downwind. But 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:27.760 in addition to that, none of the holes really ever 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:30.680 play in a singular straight line. There's always a dog 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:34.160 lag or some sort of s curve. So depending on 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:37.640 where the tea is set up that day or where 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:40.080 you are in the fair way, the wind can really 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:43.800 affect your ball from multiple different directions on the same 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:46.480 golf hole, from the tee shot to the approach shot. 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:48.960 So there's just so much variability in the way that 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:52.160 the holes lay in the ground that makes wind just 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:55.760 so prevalent. And then also with the land and the 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:59.080 wind is when you get into these big peaks and 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:02.880 valleys you're walking along the golf course. At least when 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:05.400 I was playing, I felt it really hard to get 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:08.800 like a good perception of the wind and have a 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:13.240 good confident, like I guess, understanding of how fast the 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:16.000 wind is and where it's coming from. Holes like ten 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:19.000 and eleven kind of show this off really well. I mean, 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.960 you go down into this massive bowl towards the second 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:24.680 half of the tenth fairway, feels like the wind dies 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:26.760 down a lot, and then you get back up onto 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:29.400 the green, and the wind picks up again, and the 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:32.000 eleventh T is right behind it, But then the eleventh 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:35.560 green is another twenty or thirty feet above you from there, 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:39.000 so it gets really hard to judge how fast that 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:41.040 wind is moving because it just felt like it was 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:44.160 almost not moving at all. It picks up, and then 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:46.960 you can only imagine how much more that wind is 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:49.640 blowing up by the eleventh green, which is one of 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:52.600 the highest points on the entire property. So I find 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:55.480 that was like, at least when I was playing last fall, 0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:59.480 just judging the wind and knowing how fast it was 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:01.400 coming from and how much it was going to affect 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:04.920 your ball is almost constantly changing because you're moving through 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:08.080 these is ridges and valleys throughout the routing. 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:12.440 Yeah, and especially on the back nine, you're really exposed 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:16.000 to the wind, partly because you're up high on this 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:19.520 highland section of the property. It's one of the highest 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:23.399 points in the entire area, so you're getting the full 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:26.359 brunt of the wind. But also a lot of the 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:31.359 t's on the back nine are elevated. Ten is an 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:37.040 elevated T, twelve is an elevated T. Thirteen is a 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:40.520 very elevated T fourteen, is a very elevated T fifteen. 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:44.880 Very so one after the other, you're hitting tea shots 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.399 where you're very exposed to the wind. You're just a 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:52.000 sitting duck for the wind on those tea shots. And 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:56.280 that's something that is that really comes out on the 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:59.280 back nine because on the front nine you're mostly in 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:01.840 this lowlands action of the property. A lot of the 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:05.320 tea's are kind of flush with the ground, and so yeah, 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:08.400 once you get up in the air, you start to 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:12.239 experience the wind even more. Yeah, going back to your 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:20.560 point about the McDonald philosophy versus the Flynn philosophy of routing. McDonald, 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:22.800 you know at National he did this at a lot 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:25.720 of courses. McDonald would would do, you know, the kind 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:28.760 of out and back routings. His routings tended to be 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:32.920 a little bit more linear. Rainer certainly explored different ways 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:36.160 of routing courses. I would not call you know, Rayner's 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:40.920 habit of routing to make things linear, but certainly get 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.960 the sense that that McDonald's version of Shinnacock, and we 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:47.760 don't know much about McDonald's version of Shinnacock honestly was 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:50.480 just a little bit more linear in relation to the 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:53.439 wind than Flynn's was. And you see that even on 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:56.800 poles two and three, which do roughly play in the 0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:00.080 same direction, but there is a little bit of turn in. 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:02.800 I will give the routing credit in those first three holes. 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:06.480 They all play kind of out to one section, to 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:10.080 one corner of the property, but each of them turns 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:13.159 a little bit, so it's not exactly the same. And 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:15.560 then on the third hole, a very clever thing that 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:18.720 Flynn did is that he basically just moved the tee 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:22.399 way to the left so that the hole played on 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:26.359 a diagonal now instead of straight ahead. And so that's 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:30.119 one way that Flynn was, yeah, enhancing the strategy of 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:32.399 the hole because now it's a diagonal instead of a 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:37.280 straight ahead kind of situation. But also he varied the 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:41.000 relationship to the wind direction by moving that tee over 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:43.560 and kind of essentially turning the hole into a dog lake. 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:47.840 So yeah, Flynn was obviously really thinking hard about how 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:51.000 the wind related to the golf course. And so I 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:54.159 would say shinecok Kills is probably one of the best 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:59.159 designs in relation to elements and wind that there is 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:02.159 an American. It's really cool. We're going to be on 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:05.800 the third big aspect of Shinnecock Hills that I want 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:09.119 to talk about, and it's somewhat related to what we 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:14.639 just discussed, and that is the way the course is 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:22.919 constantly playing with angles, diagonals, offsets, dog legs. Basically, this 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:29.600 is a course that totally resists anything linear. It's remarkable, 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:33.520 for example, how many t shots on this golf course 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:37.679 play to a diagonal or offset fair way. And this 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:40.760 does a couple of things. One, it poses a risk 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:44.520 reward question. In general, if you challenge the long side 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:47.240 of the diagonal or the inside of the dog leg, 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:50.959 you get an advantage of both distance and angle. But 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:53.320 also occasionally it's a fake out because it's you know, 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:55.879 sometimes it's actually better to play to the outside of 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:58.720 the dog leg or the outside of the diagonal, and 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:03.399 that's specifically the case on holes eight and thirteen. The 0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:06.160 second thing that all these kind of all this diagonal 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:10.560 movement does is that it challenges both line and distance 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:14.320 off the tee. You can't just bash it down a 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:17.200 certain line and say, you know, if it goes three hundred, 0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:19.200 it's fine, or if it goes three fifty it's fine. 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:23.440 You have to be specific about matching line with distance, 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:27.400 because otherwise you're going to run through the fairway or 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:30.680 not get to the fairway. So how do you think 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:34.200 about about angles and diagonals and all that kind of 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:35.040 thing it should have gotten. 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:38.959 Yeah, I think something that you didn't even touch on 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:42.000 right there is the green angles. So many of the 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:46.280 greens are set on very sharp angles that then enhance 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:48.359 the strategy that you were just talking about off the 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:50.760 tee is where you really need to get into the 0:21:50.800 --> 0:21:54.679 right positions to attack certain pins. And the way that 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:57.800 the greens are built, like you talked about on the 0:21:57.840 --> 0:21:59.880 kind of lower lands where a lot of holes are, 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:02.560 the greens are kind of pushed up. There's so many 0:22:02.800 --> 0:22:05.920 runoffs and rolloffs on all these greens on all the 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:09.960 different sides. So it really does put a very strong, 0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:13.320 I guess importance on where you are in the fair 0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:15.880 way and how you're approaching these greens. And then that 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:18.720 just gets so complicated when you throw in the wind 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:22.320 and the constant changing winds. I think that's something we 0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:25.639 might not have touched on on the wind section. But 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:29.200 the wind can frequently completely flip directions during the day 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:32.560 when you're playing at Shinnacock. When we played it last fall, 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:34.919 we had the north wind, which was kind of the 0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:37.960 unusual wind, and it just made things so much more 0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:41.639 difficult to judge. So it really is kind of the 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:47.720 total package that enhances the angles and the diagonals and 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:51.359 creates such a challenge when you're playing this golf course, 0:22:52.320 --> 0:22:55.320 and like you said, like a whole like sixteen, it 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:59.280 plays relatively dead straight all the way for six hundred 0:22:59.280 --> 0:23:02.680 and twenty yards or whatever it is, but the fairway 0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:07.000 is constantly snaking its way through the landscape, and there's 0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:10.159 different bunkers kind of pushing and pulling the direction of 0:23:10.200 --> 0:23:14.320 the fairway, forcing you to kind of navigate this s 0:23:14.480 --> 0:23:19.520 curve even though the whole basically plays dead straight from 0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:21.600 tea to green. If you just drew a line, it 0:23:21.640 --> 0:23:23.800 would go right down the middle, but the fairway doesn't 0:23:23.840 --> 0:23:26.320 follow that. So there's a lot of things like that 0:23:26.320 --> 0:23:28.639 that he was able to do, which I think was 0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:32.800 somewhat a product of fitting the golf course into the 0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:36.800 landscape and finding the best place for fairways to go 0:23:36.880 --> 0:23:39.560 and bunkers to go. There's never going to really be 0:23:39.840 --> 0:23:43.840 kind of a straight linear path to take in a 0:23:43.880 --> 0:23:47.040 site that has kind of dune formations like this. But 0:23:47.160 --> 0:23:50.159 he was also able to like strategically place teas in 0:23:50.240 --> 0:23:55.280 certain areas that either create some obscurities or diagonal angles 0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:58.080 that really make you think when you're standing on the 0:23:58.119 --> 0:24:01.239 tee boxes. So it it really is kind of this 0:24:01.280 --> 0:24:06.320 total package staying where all the different little aspects, especially 0:24:06.440 --> 0:24:09.160 the six that we've picked out, all kind of feed 0:24:09.200 --> 0:24:19.800