1 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to Fitness Disrupted, a production of I Heart Radio 2 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Fitness Disrupted. I am Tom Holland, and yes 3 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,759 Speaker 1: I am a runner. I am a runner. I'm someone 4 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: who has run many marathons lost count maybe seventy plus 5 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: or minus if you include iron Man races twenty six 6 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: iron Man races, which if you don't know, includes a 7 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: full distance marathon within the race. I've done some ultras 8 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: as well, fifty mile runs fifty k I ran to 9 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: the top of Holly Akola many years ago on Maui. 10 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: One of the coolest runs I've ever done, thirty six 11 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: miles from sea level to the top of Mount holly 12 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: Akola on Maui race called Run to the Sun. Absolutely 13 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: unbelievable experience sea level to ten thousand feet, just over amazing. 14 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: So the topic to a running in your knees. Running 15 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: is bad for your knees, right, That's what we hear 16 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: all the time. That's what I am told when I'm 17 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: at parties, when I start talking with certain people, I'm 18 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: told running is bad for your knees. Right. Wait till 19 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: you're older, That's what I hear all the time. Wait 20 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: till you're older. Okay, I'm fifty. I started doing it 21 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: my first full marathon back Boston College, my dad and 22 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: iran Boston Marathon. Since then again, seventy plus or mine 23 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: is not quite sure. It doesn't matter who cares. My 24 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: knees are fine. My knees are fine. And if there's 25 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 1: ever a topic for this show, people, this is the one. 26 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: This is why I do this show. It's what I 27 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: do every day in my job, writing, lecturing, writing the books. 28 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: It's dispelling the myths. It's talking the science once and 29 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: for all. That's what we need. That's the disruption and fitness. 30 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: It's the truth. It's the science. And the guest I 31 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: have for you today is going to set the record 32 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: straight once and for all. Yes, once and for all. 33 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: This is the guy PhD level Harvard. Need I say more, 34 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: we will, We'll talk about it. But again, running is 35 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:12,799 Speaker 1: bad for your knees, right, that's what we hear, That's 36 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: what we've been told since the beginning of time. Let's 37 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 1: think of how nuts just on the face that whole 38 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: concept is. You know what should be kind of abnormal swimming? 39 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: And guess what I'm gonna ask our guest about that? Yes, 40 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: I do triathlons. Yes, I've I've swimmed, swam, swam in 41 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: in bodies of water all over the world, China, South Korea, 42 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: New Zealand, Malaysia, South Africa, you name it. I've I've swimmed, 43 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 1: swam swimming it. Uh that that's unnatural. That's that's unnatural. 44 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: We're not meant to be in the water. We don't 45 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: have gills, we don't have fins. I've written books on 46 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: triathlon and listen, I swim. I do it. It's good 47 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,959 Speaker 1: for me, I think now it is. Uh, but run 48 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,399 Speaker 1: when people start saying, yeah, I swim, but don't run 49 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 1: because running is bad for your knees. Really really, we walk, 50 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 1: we jog at what speed exactly would running be bad 51 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: for the knees? Because we gotta move, we gotta move forward. 52 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:18,239 Speaker 1: That's what we do. We we ended up on two legs, 53 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,959 Speaker 1: I think for a reason. And my guest, we'll talk 54 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: about that because that's what he studies for a living. 55 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: So running being bad for the knees. I can't tell 56 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: you how excited I am to have Dr Daniel Lieberman 57 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: joining us after the break. If there is ever someone 58 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: who is going to set the record straight at him, 59 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: and I think you're gonna be shocked. I think you're 60 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: gonna be shocked at what he says. I met him 61 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago at a marathon charity event 62 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: or the charity team that I coach. We'll talk about that. 63 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: I don't want to get ahead of myself, but this 64 00:03:55,840 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: is the guy. This show has the best guests. That's 65 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: what I look for. Celebrities, CEOs, people who are going 66 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: to talk about it, and celebrities for the right reason, 67 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: mind you. Not the celebrity workouts, we're not. We're not 68 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: going there. Uh. People staying in shape on the road, 69 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: things like that. But the best of the best and 70 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: when it comes to your knees going to suffer from running, 71 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Lieberman is the guy. He's the guy. If 72 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: you have read Born to Run, I'm sure he will 73 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: talk about this. I will ask him about it. If 74 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: you have read Born to Run, you know where the 75 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: title comes from. His study, his study years ago. So 76 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 1: the book Born to Run he's mentioned at numerous times, 77 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: and as he should be, because they took the title. 78 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: Chris McDougall took the title from him. Okay, barefoot running, 79 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,799 Speaker 1: all of those things that are associated with running. This 80 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 1: is what Dr Lieberman studies. He goes to the source. 81 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 1: He just got back literally two days ago from Kenya, 82 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: where he goes free will lead to study the runners. 83 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: He studies evolution. Okay, how we evolved? What we're meant 84 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: to do? The natural things, and quite often in fitness 85 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 1: we we we we avoid ignore Acam's razor. The most 86 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: simple solutions answers are quite often the correct ones. So 87 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about running in your knees? Am I 88 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: an outlier? Are they? The crazy thing? Is my story. 89 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: I had every running related issue as a kid. Okay, football, soccer. 90 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 1: I couldn't do it because our coaches didn't know what 91 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: they were doing with training. I wasn't training correctly. I 92 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: was sitting on the beach in the summer. I wasn't 93 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: doing We didn't know what to do. Strength. I was 94 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: lifting weights fourteen got into it then. But as far 95 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: as lower body stuff, shoes, all that stuff, we had 96 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: no idea. So I sat on the bench. I sat 97 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: on the bench with shin splints, with ankle issues pain 98 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: my entire childhood. So to thank today, I do what 99 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: I do. I run as far as I do, totally 100 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: injury free. And guess what, I know some of you 101 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: are are probably thinking, well, just wait Tom again, wait 102 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: till you get older. I'm fifty now, Okay, I heard 103 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: that at twenty. I heard it at thirty. I heard 104 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: it at forty, still hearing a little bit at fifty. 105 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 1: What what age do do we say? Okay, maybe not? 106 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 1: And guess what our threat is is a progressive thing. 107 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: It's not something that all of a sudden you come 108 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: down with, so we would see it. I do the 109 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: things to help keep me injury free. The strength training, 110 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: the stretching, the topics we talk about I talk about 111 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: on this show that keep you healthy, and we'll talk 112 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: about if you have an injury, totally different, totally different 113 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: ballgame when it comes to the knees, and I'm sure 114 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 1: Dr Lieberman will talk about that as well. Okay, but 115 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,919 Speaker 1: this is what this show is all about, disrupting fitness, 116 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,359 Speaker 1: giving you the truth from the people who know what 117 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,600 Speaker 1: they're talking about. And there's two types of people. There's 118 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 1: the people who do it and then the people who 119 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: study it. Ideally, let's get both. So I studied it, 120 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: I do it. Dr Lieberman studies it more than I. 121 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: I wish I could have studied under him. Holy cow. 122 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: I didn't go to Harvard. I went to Boston College. 123 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: I have three brothers who went there though, and uh, 124 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: they didn't study with him. They should have. Uh. But 125 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: that's where we get the answers. We take the science, 126 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: we take the real world. You know, Dr Lieberman has 127 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: done he's twenty plus marathons at this point himself. It 128 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: doesn't look like a runner, not what you would think, 129 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: nor do I when you see me and he's he's 130 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: he's walking the walk and he's running the run. He's 131 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: doing a barefoot Sometimes we'll talk about that. Everything is 132 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: on a pendulum. Today it's all or nothing. It's run 133 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: barefoot or or or don't. How about you mix it up. 134 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: You run long distance, or you do high intensity and 135 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: interval training. One makes you skinny. No no, no, no, 136 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: no no no, So couldn't be more excited? Sit back. 137 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: Whatever you thought about not only running in your knees, 138 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: by the way, running being bad for your knees, but 139 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: just movement in general, the causes of osteo arthritis. It's 140 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: the opposite of what you think. It's the opposite. Don't 141 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: believe me. That's okay. That's okay. Believe Dr Lieberman, and 142 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: then believe me. All right, So sit back when we 143 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:42,439 Speaker 1: come back from this short break. Coming up, friend of mine, 144 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 1: one of the smartest people I know when it comes 145 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: to the science of running from an evolutionary standpoint and 146 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: going forward. He's still studying it and we're gonna talk 147 00:08:55,800 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: to him. So Dr Daniel Lieberman from Harvard University coming 148 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: up right after this short break. Could not be more 149 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: excited to have Dr Daniel Lieberman on the program. If 150 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: you've read anything about running, if you're into running, if 151 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: you're especially into barefoot running in that whole debate, you 152 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: know who Dr Lieberman is. If you've read Born to Run. 153 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: I met him years ago. Could not be more excited 154 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: to talk about that myth, that myth about running being 155 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,719 Speaker 1: bad for you. Before we talk about that, just want 156 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: to tell you who he is in case you don't know, 157 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: which would surprise me. Dr Lieberman is a Professor of 158 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: Biological Sciences at Harvard University. He is also a Professor 159 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: of Human Evolutionary Biology. UH. He teaches and studies how 160 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: and why the human body looks and functions the way 161 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: it does. He's now focused on the evolution of human 162 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 1: physical activity, how evolutionary approaches to activities such as walking 163 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: and running and the changes to our bodies environments such 164 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: as wearing shoes or not, and being physically inactive can 165 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: help better prevent and treat musculo skeletal diseases. So he 166 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 1: knows what he's talking about. Uh. Dr Lieberman, thank you 167 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: so much for being on the show. I know you've 168 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: got books, and you've got books coming out, and we're 169 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: gonna have you back on because we talked earlier about 170 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: that topic and I love it. It's exactly what what 171 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: I talk about here. So you're a runner. We met 172 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: at marathon years ago and you have continued. So let's 173 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: just cut right to the chase. Dr Leeman. You're at 174 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: a party and you tell someone you've done twenty two, 175 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: twenty three marathons. You're getting ready to do your next Boston, 176 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: and inevitably that person might say to you, oh my gosh, 177 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: running is bad for your knees. Wait till you're older. 178 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: What do you say? Well, the sad thing is I've 179 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: heard that many times. It's probably most writers have, and 180 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 1: it's a I think the perfect example of the kind 181 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: of myths that are propagated about about exercise and running. Um, 182 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: the sad fact of matters. I've heard that some doctors 183 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 1: who ought to know better because there are maybe twelve thirteen, fourteen, 184 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: fifteen randomized control studies, careful studies, perspective studies which show 185 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: that runners are not not only no more at risk 186 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: of ruining their needs than than than non runners, actually 187 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: probably slightly less at risk. It's just a myth. And 188 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: and sadly, there are a lot of myths about running, 189 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: not to mention physical activity. Isn't that crazy? And and 190 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: I'm gonna say it again, So there are studies we 191 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: are we're not just saying that is longitudinal studies, right, 192 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: And I think what you're alluding to is the studies 193 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: that say, not only do runners not have a higher 194 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: incidence of osteo arthritis, they might and do many of 195 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: them have a lower incidence. And the number one reason 196 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: I think, correct me if I'm wrong, is runners just 197 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,839 Speaker 1: way less. They're carrying around less weight. Well, we don't, 198 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 1: we do actually don't know why that's the case. That 199 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: one of the actually just published a paper about a 200 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:08,319 Speaker 1: year and a half ago, and and we're doing a 201 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: lot of research on the evolution of usto arthritis, and 202 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: in my lab and for example, it may surprise you, 203 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: but you know, if you're a seven year old with 204 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: a particular body mass and particular you know, age, and 205 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: a particular sex and etcetera, you are twice as likely 206 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: to have arthritis and the knees as if you've been 207 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: more in two generations ago today. And that's an after 208 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: sector for weight and everything else. So, um, so something 209 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: has happened. You know, you can't explain that with genes, right, 210 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: there's no gene that has spread through the even population 211 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: of the last two generations double people's chances of getting arthritis. 212 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: It's something about our environment. And one of the likely 213 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: culprits his physical activity. Because as you think, you realize, 214 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: of course, people have become less physically active now than 215 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: they were two generations ago. So people think of arthritis 216 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 1: is a wear and tear disease. That's completely wrong. It's 217 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: actually using your live you know, running and walking and 218 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: loading your your joints actually promotes health of the joints 219 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: um and helps prevent uh the kind of inflammatory diseases 220 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: like arthritis that wear us away. So so it's it's 221 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:21,959 Speaker 1: we've got a d is wrong. Um, and it's um. 222 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: But it's common in the medical world to hear that. Um. 223 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: I love it. Yeah, And you just you just hit 224 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: on two things, Dr Luhman, which makes me so profoundly happy. 225 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: Not only is running, you know, not bad for our knees, 226 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: you don't listen if you have injuries and things like that. 227 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: Different story, but just from a basic uh standpoint, right, 228 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: not that we talk basic here, but and now you're saying, 229 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: and you know that osteoarthritis, can you say one more 230 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: time just so people understand that it's not about the loading. Yeah, well, 231 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean the common misconception of arthritis is 232 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: a wear and care disease. So I correctly, can you 233 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: use your car too much? Right? You wear up, you know, 234 00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: various components of the car and you have to replace them. 235 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: And we've analogized that to the body, and we think that, 236 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: you know, the more you use your limbs, you the 237 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: more you sort of you know, you know, wear that out. 238 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: And that's just not true. It turns out that past 239 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: one of the reasons that exercise is so healthy is 240 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: that it activates repair and maintenance mechanisms that otherwise don't 241 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: get turned on in the body, so and it turns 242 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: and that's you know, people used to think that cartilage 243 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: and your joints, which is what wears the way, when 244 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: it wears the way, that's what's causes. Aren't treat as. 245 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: People used to think that it was a set when 246 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: you're young and basically sort of lose it as you 247 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: as you get older. But that turns out not to 248 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: be true. The act of loading your joints actually promotes 249 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: repair mechanisms within the cartilage that helps maintain its help. 250 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: So people who don't exercise and don't run are actually 251 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: more at risk. The one exception to that is is trauma. 252 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: So if you if you if you if you get 253 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: a skiing injury or you know, uh an a c 254 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: l break from some other reason like uh, you know, 255 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: car accident or who knows what, you are vastly increa 256 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: maybe by eight fold your your likelihood of artreatus in 257 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: that joint. But that's trauma, right, that's that's that's that's 258 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: a different issue. But from just normal old use of 259 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: the the limb, it's quite the reverse. And that's but 260 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: that's true for pretty much every system of the body. 261 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: I mean, we know that's true for for heart disease 262 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: and you know, curtiovascular function and s trupid the immune system. 263 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: It is true for your brain. Pic activity is that 264 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: is by far the most the best thing you can 265 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: do to prevent Alzheimer's and dementia. The list is is 266 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: so long. We could probably spend the next thirty minutes 267 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: just talking about that and for everybody to tears. But 268 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: but but the reason for that is that our bodies 269 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: don't activate repair and maintenance mechanisms unless you stress the body, 270 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: and and the stress that we evolved, uh two, that 271 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: that activates those mechanisms. The physical activity. I love it. 272 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: I love it, Oh my gosh. And I love that 273 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: you said, because it's so confusing for people because I've 274 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: heard it as you know, a fitness person back and 275 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: when I was a trainer and then you know, got 276 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: into writing the books and doing the videos and things 277 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: like that. They would say, my doctor said, don't do this, 278 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: and you just go, wow, that's that's a problem. That's 279 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: a huge problem. So I know you're working on a 280 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: book to help dispel those myths as well. Do you 281 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: know what the that's the that's the leading causes of 282 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: death in the United States are so number one, Number 283 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: two is kNs there. But according to a recent study 284 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: in the British Medical Journal, and it was not uncinsually 285 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: published in the British Medical Journal, but the leading of 286 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: death in the United States is medical mistakes. Is that right, 287 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: did not know that, macy and make k A why 288 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: it's interesting. You know, whether it's three, number four, number five, 289 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter. The point is that, um, you know, 290 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: I'm not demigrating medicine, you know, Rush, there are lots 291 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: of medesful doctors who do help people. But but but 292 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: medicine is an imperfect science and and lots of mistakes 293 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: are made, and lots of doctors are trained poorly and 294 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: there and they don't know what's going on. But there 295 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: are very few doctors are taught how to A I 296 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: don't know, um and um. And the result is that 297 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,719 Speaker 1: a lot of mistakes are made. You just gave me 298 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: the greatest fodder for my next argument. I love it. Uh, 299 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: that's and that's listen. We go by science, right, and 300 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 1: science We always have to take the science and and 301 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: the studies in the real world and what can people 302 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 1: actually do? And I love you just you just said 303 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: when we talked earlier, you got back from another was 304 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: you're in the Rift Valley, I assume studying running and 305 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: things like that. Well, we were above the Rift Valley, 306 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 1: but we were on the other side of the riff 307 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 1: that we were in highland. Left in Kenya, where I've 308 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: been my my group and I have been working for 309 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: the last ten years studying running but also other other 310 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: aspects of physical activity. Where can I get you? Do 311 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 1: you have a vacation where we can pay to part 312 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: of what I VA were working. There's no running water, 313 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: there's no electricity, there's no roads. Really, there's no I 314 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: wouldn't pay a lot of money for that. Though. It's 315 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: pretty uh, it's pretty uh, it's pretty rough work. Actually, Um. 316 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: We finally make it down to the to the city 317 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: of all that and get a first hot shower. My 318 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 1: students are are are you know? I word of like mutiny. 319 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 1: They're getting credit though, right, they have to do what 320 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: you say. That's the that's the best part of it. 321 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: I got very but I love that. One of the 322 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 1: greatest books among many, Running with the Kenyans, you know, 323 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: and that great story about how we lived and all 324 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: those great things he learned from them barefoot running and 325 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: all of that stuff, and when don't we while we're 326 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: talking about running, and let's just talk about the barefoot 327 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 1: running and you're again, we need six hours to talk 328 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: about it. But you're quick takeaway from that as far 329 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: as because there's you know, so many misconceptions about that. Well, 330 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'm an ship about this, and 331 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: I'm interested in how we evolved to run and what 332 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 1: what what? How how about is functioning when we run? 333 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: And so? Um? So I published a paper with a 334 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: guy named Dennis Bramble and two other than four that 335 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: was in the general nature in times of Born to Run, um, 336 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: which led to you know, all this crazy stuff including, uh, 337 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 1: this journalist named Chris McDougal who short up in my 338 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: lab not too long thereafter, and um and and what 339 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 1: the popular book Born to Run, which we actually never 340 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: mentioned that we published a paper title point Run but anyway, 341 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: we saw it from Bruce Springsteen anyway, but but anyway, 342 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: but in the you know, it turned into a kind 343 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: of craze. I enjoy barefoot running. I think we can 344 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: learn a lot from running barefoot because obviously, for millions 345 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: of years, our ancestors run barefoot and you don't need 346 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: shoes to run, and you can learn a lot about 347 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: running from studying barefoot running. But it turned, like a 348 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: lot of other things, into kind of a fad um 349 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: and um and a lot of you know, people, despite 350 00:19:55,520 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: my efforts, a lot of um uh, you know, a 351 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: lot of mythologizing kind of happened both on both sides 352 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:05,640 Speaker 1: of the story. So on the one hand, there were 353 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 1: there were diffoot running enthusiasts who who kind of drank 354 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: the cREL aid and thought that if you took off 355 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: your shoes and and and and ran barefoot, you know, 356 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: it would solve all of your problems and you'd never 357 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: get injured, and and you know, your girls would like 358 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: you more, and your teeth would be wider, and god 359 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 1: knows what. At the same time, there are a bunch 360 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: of people who who are also fanatically approached to beffoot 361 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: running and and sort of you know, made it seem 362 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: as if it was a kind of counterculture kind of 363 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: hippie thing, and everybody did it was like a public 364 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 1: polygamist and and you know, who knows what, but um, 365 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: and of course the truth is much more complicated and 366 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: and and and really I think, what what what the 367 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: key story is that you don't need shoes to run 368 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 1: um and shoes changed the way you run, and and 369 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:53,400 Speaker 1: it turns out there are better and worse ways to run. 370 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: And I still believe very firmly, and I think the 371 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: data have supported it that that a barefoot running style, 372 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: for the most part is that is a is a 373 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 1: better way to run. It's way to all the world's 374 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 1: best runners run that way. You don't have to be 375 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 1: barefoot to run that way. But when you wear a 376 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: cushion high healed shoe, it does change why you run, 377 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: and that can have adverse effects. But there that said, 378 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: the millions and millions of people who wear conventional shoes 379 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 1: and they do just fine. So it's not like a 380 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: death sentence to wear shoes, nor with a magic bullet 381 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: to to go barefoot. It's it's as with all things. 382 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 1: It's much more complicated, and people try to turn, you know, 383 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: complicated stories into simple factoids, and we all run into trouble. 384 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: And that's that's sadly very emblematic of of everything in general. Right, right, Well, 385 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: we we as Americans ruin it, right, so we just 386 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: take it and we run with it. And and it's 387 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: exclusive I remember Dr Leeban being in an Ironman racing 388 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: hearing a strange foot strike next to me and looking 389 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 1: in the guy was wearing Vibrms and you know, it 390 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 1: was a hot day and it was paved roads and 391 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: and he was suffering. And I don't think just because 392 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: of the distance and the heat. Uh. And And my 393 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: takeaway from all of that was that the they grow 394 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: up running barefoot, their feet gets strong, So you don't 395 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 1: you don't switch to barefoot running when you're forty fifty 396 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 1: years old and you've been wearing supportive shoes all at 397 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: the same time, right, like anything else, Right, I personally 398 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 1: owned Vibrum. Do it sometimes? Yeah, I call it Burnda 399 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 1: Runson Jim. Somebody who like reads reads that book and thinks, 400 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, you know, throws away their shoes and 401 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: then gets injured because because you know, if you you 402 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: have to death, you can't just suddenly do that. But yeah, 403 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: you know, I've been dying man a few times. And 404 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: you know a few years ago I went and everybody 405 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: was wearing wearing Newton shoes, and now they're all wearing papas. 406 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: But the next time I go back, they'll be wearing 407 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: something completely different. The fads are extraordinary and everybody they're 408 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: always people are always kind of looking for some product 409 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: that they can buy that will, you know, somehow magically 410 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: make them better. But you know, I think we should 411 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: we need to step back from the commercialization of all 412 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: of us and realize that it's really better use your 413 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: body and and all this stuff that people buy, most 414 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: of it is just gimmick and and really it's how 415 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 1: you use your body and that that matters. And some 416 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: of these products can help, but most of them probably don't. Right. 417 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 1: I always say that what's the best bike or what's 418 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 1: the best pair of shoes, and it's the ones the 419 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: pros are, you know, sponsored by that that's the way 420 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: they use. I want to do an experiment, and I 421 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: actually tried to convince that I talked about this once 422 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: with the editor Runners World, but I wanted to get 423 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: Runners World to write an article suggesting that you know, 424 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: was saying that there was a fake science article that 425 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: you know, there was a research that you know, people 426 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: who wore red shirts were faster and then and then 427 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 1: track the sales of red versus non red shirts and 428 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: running for the country. I'll make a bet when having 429 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: significant effect on sales, even though it's complete blucky was 430 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: that Ambi berfoot? He didn't run with that, Yeah it was. 431 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: It was actually covers and we had a good laugh. 432 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 1: But he didn't think an editor would let him do that. 433 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: Do you know I thought this eight the years ago 434 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: I was teaching group fitness. I thought, you know, I 435 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: could just go in front of the class and do 436 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: the most goofy routine, you know, counter to what was 437 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: probably right to do, correct to do, and they would 438 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 1: follow it right And and that's one of the problems 439 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 1: with fitness and my gosh, if you get triathletes Dr 440 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: Leeman to follow a product, forget about it. You just 441 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 1: have to charge five dollars for that red shirt. That's 442 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: the secret. You don't make sure it's not too but 443 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: that I love that. Oh gosh, we could we could 444 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: talk for hours because yeah, the barefoot. You know, I 445 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: took a picture Dr. Leeman recently of my shoes and 446 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,719 Speaker 1: I've got the vibe rooms, I've got them, I've got 447 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: the minimal issues, I've got the more supportive and I 448 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: rotate them depending on the workout I'm doing. And I'm 449 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: trying to build up my strength. But I know that again, 450 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: I'm now fifty. I didn't grow up running barefoot, so 451 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: I gotta build up slowly. But that's not what we 452 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: do in fitness. It's always the extreme. Yeah, that's all. 453 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: That's a sad, sad, sad but true facts. Yeah, so 454 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: I love it. So we we have learned. We we've 455 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: already dispelled three myths in about fifteen minutes, which is 456 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: is truly amazing. What are you working on now? Um, specifically, Well, 457 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: in the lab, we're we're we're doing a lot of 458 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 1: work now on really everything from the head to the foot. 459 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: So we're doing we're still doing the search on on 460 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 1: foot strength and foot function and how shoes affect how 461 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: the foot works. Um, we've actually figured out a way 462 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: to measure how in vivo the elastic energy storage that 463 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: occurs in the human foot, which is pretty cool. We're 464 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: also we've we just published a paper on callousis and 465 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 1: how callousis function, showing that having thicker callousis don't actually 466 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: affect sensory feedback. So unlike a shoe which trades out 467 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,399 Speaker 1: protection for for sensory You know, when a shoe protects 468 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: your foot, but you lose information about what's happening on 469 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 1: the ground callousis the calousies don't do that actually, so 470 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,199 Speaker 1: people who have very thick callousies can feel just as 471 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,479 Speaker 1: much on under their foot as somebody has been callousies. Um, 472 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: we're working on information and how physical activity lays inflammation. 473 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 1: We're working on how physics activity affects bone strength and 474 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: they help prevent us to your process. We're doing a 475 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 1: lot of working on two writers. Um, we're looking at 476 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: how people carry stuff. We're basically looking at the transition, 477 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 1: how how the way in which our bodies transitioned from 478 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: the lifestyle we lived many generations ago, where we didn't 479 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: have machines to do all the work for us and 480 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 1: didn't sit in chairs and you know, didn't have shopping 481 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: carts and all that, to the modern sort of post 482 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: industrial world where we sit in chairs and wear shoes. 483 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: We're trying to understand how that affects their bodies and 484 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: ways both good and bet, but without kind of fetishizing 485 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: the past, because unlike sometimes I don't think chairs are 486 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: out to kill us. And you know, uh, you know, 487 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: if you go to a cample hunter gathers, they're also 488 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: sitting most of the time too, So we we again, 489 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 1: we've we have some very SUPs, you know. And again, 490 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: in our efforts to try to find simple answers to 491 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 1: complex questions, we oversimplified. Yes, yes, and and it's just extremes. 492 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,640 Speaker 1: It's one under the pendulum or the other. And that's 493 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: the huge problem. Uh. And before I forget you, you 494 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: set me up perfectly to throw my father under the 495 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 1: bus with the callouses. He said that one year my 496 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 1: mother got him to get his first pedicure and he 497 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: couldn't run for weeks. Then I got rid of They 498 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: got rid of all the callous is right, They could 499 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 1: benefit you, right? Well, yeah, I mean it's abnormal not 500 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 1: to have callouses. We think of them as some of these, 501 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: you know, ugly nasty things you want to get rid of. 502 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 1: But until recently, nobody had feet without callouses. They were 503 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,360 Speaker 1: unless they were in serious pain. I remember a few 504 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: years ago I was running. It was a beautiful summer 505 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: day and I was running a barefoot actually the cambridge 506 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: and a and a woman who was walking her dogs 507 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: said to me, you were different, and as I will 508 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: buyer without thinking, I don't know, my brain just kind 509 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 1: of clicked and I said, as I whipped by I said, 510 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: you have dogs here, a barefoot and and the look 511 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: on her it's like, oh my gosh, my dogs are barefoot, 512 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: you know. And but you know, maybe they'll pay for 513 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 1: dogs but not humans. Uh right, right, what's more abnormal, 514 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: right is to throw on the and the areas that 515 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: are working, you know. I mean much of the world 516 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: is still barefoot. I mean I just came from a 517 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 1: region in Kenya where most of the people are barefoot. 518 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: I'll be honest. Their feet are much nicer than the 519 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 1: folks in town. They're wearing shoes. They don't have fun 520 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: go those uses. They don't have you know, um uh, 521 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 1: you know a lot of shoot shoot shoes. I mean, 522 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: I'm I'm wearing sandals right now, but shoes have Shoes 523 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: have cost, but doose have benefits? And and and and 524 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: and It's like everything there's there's trade off to everything, 525 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: and shoes are no exception, right right. I love it. 526 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: I love it. What a great that woman must have 527 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: been completely completely taken aback, because yeah, it's it's you know, 528 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: it's it's it's about the extremes as we've been talking about. 529 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: And I love the work you do. I'm so sad 530 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: that I have studied under you, because oh my gosh, 531 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: it is just you know, to study the way we 532 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: evolved and and that's you know, the nature behind what 533 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: we should be doing in the abnormal uh ways we 534 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: are living down And I like what you said about chairs. 535 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: You know, when I started, it was like, oh, sit 536 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: on a stability ball, and then it was get the 537 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: standing desk, and then it was actually, it doesn't matter 538 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: if you're standing all day. You gotta get up and 539 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: down right, you gotta squat, you gotta So you know, 540 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: we're constantly, as you're saying, trying to simplify um when 541 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: the answers are simple, but not in the ways were 542 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: not simple, But we oversimplify when and make them more 543 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: difficult when they're not. Yeah, And also I think, I mean, 544 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: for example, sending us another example right of of how 545 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: we um you run into trouble. I mean, there's nothing 546 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: wrong with stending this. I'm not have a sending this too, 547 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: and I enjoy using it. But let's not pretend that 548 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: stending us their exercise, right right, that and that and 549 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: that and that standing at a desk is is a 550 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: way that you're gonna effectively lose light et cetera. I mean, 551 00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: there may be some benefits to sending this, but they're 552 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: not gonna like a magic bullet that's going to solve 553 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: all your problems. And um, and Nora's the chair that 554 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: I'm currently sitting down gonna cause lit me have problems 555 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: as well. I mean we we One of the one 556 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: of the things I've gotten very interested in is is 557 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: is the history of chairs. And you know that the 558 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: modern backed chair really didn't become common until the Industrial Revolution. 559 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: And it was only then that people started worrying about 560 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: people's posture and and and actually was a German orthopedist 561 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: things named Staffel who came up with the idea that 562 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 1: when you sit in a chair you should have the 563 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: same posture as when you stand. And so I started 564 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: studying that and looking at the literature. Turned out there's 565 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: absolutely no evidence but forever to support that contention. Um 566 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: none zero is built. And it's not for lack of studying. 567 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: And yet most people think that when you still sit 568 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: in a chair, you should have that upright posture, you 569 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: shouldn't slouch. But actually that's just not there's no scientificgether. 570 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: And I'm sitting at my standing desk right now, so, 571 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: but I just don't spend too much time here. That's 572 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: the secret, right is when I was working on my 573 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: most recent book, and I've never felt worse in my 574 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: life because I sat for longer periods of time than 575 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: I ever had. And my oversimplification is, you know, the 576 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: less I move, Dr Lehman, the worse I feel and 577 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: the more active I've become in my later years. To me, 578 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: that's the body saying you gotta move right then I'm 579 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: more uncomfortable. And my young son, you know, the kids 580 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: always have the answers, he said, Dad, why are you 581 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: more sore after a long plane ride than you are 582 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: after a marathon? Uh? To me, you know, it's kind 583 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 1: of just the body telling us to move in a 584 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: very oversimplified I'm actually more so after the end of 585 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: thing of course? Is that? Um. You know, we have 586 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: a sawd notion that somehow, as you get older, you 587 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: don't have to move as much. And es actually quite 588 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: the reverse. Um that as we get, the older you get, 589 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: the more movement becomes important. Um. And that's another message 590 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: that I don't think gets adequately conveyed. I love it. 591 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: I love it all right, we have to we have 592 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: to put aside a longer chunk of time. And uh 593 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: so let's do the takeaways here. Running not bad for 594 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: the knees. Actually not moving is one of the worst 595 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: things we can do for our bodies. And as you 596 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: just said, even as we get older, which should make 597 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: sense to people, why why are we just looking for 598 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: the excuse not to I guess, I guess that's part 599 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: of it, right, Yeah, Well, I mean honest, running is 600 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it's although it's fun, I mean those of 601 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: us we love to run, um um, I still have 602 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: to force themselves. I mean when I when I went 603 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: for a run this morning, um, and Frank, I didn't 604 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: really want to go. I'm glad I went. But a 605 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 1: lot of the times in the way I get myself 606 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: to run is that I know I have a running buddy, 607 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: and or I sign up for a marathon and and 608 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: I have to train, or I don't want to be 609 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: humiliated on day um. But but I do it because 610 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: I know that I've never come back from a run 611 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: having regretted it. Um. And I know that that the 612 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: benefits out way of the cost. But but I struggle 613 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: to exercise just as much as people who don't exercise. 614 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: It's just that I've found ways to coerce myself. And 615 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: that's true, have almost everybody who exercises, and that's because 616 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: it's not a very normal behavior. And for millions of years, 617 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: nobody needless rights five mile run in the morning. So 618 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: the I did that we are born to run. It's true. 619 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: I mean, we we are involved to run, but nobody. 620 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: I mean, if you read Chris mcdugol's book, you get 621 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: the sense that you know, Tarmar wake up in the 622 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: morning and made it kind of armed up. I'm going 623 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 1: to go for a fifty mile run today. That's complete bs, 624 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: It's just not true. Nobody there runs. In fact that 625 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: one of the things that that book fails to mention 626 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: is that the main reason that they run is that 627 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: it's a form of prayer. Yeah, it's spiritual. And then 628 00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 1: the book makes no mention whatsoever of that it's a 629 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: it's a it's a religious act, it's a it's a 630 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: spiritual act and um, and we need reasons to run, 631 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: um um, apart from the fact that it's just simply 632 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 1: good for us um. And it's hard to motivate yourself. 633 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 1: And so let's not pretend that that even though we 634 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: are we have all kinds of features in our bodies 635 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: that we evolved and make us good at running. We 636 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: never evolved to do it for no reason at all, 637 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: and and people shouldn't feel bad about it. They we 638 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: need to help each other become physically active. And shaming 639 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: and blaming and making us feel abnormal is is is 640 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: another really just a horrible aspect of modern the modern 641 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: approach to exercise that we need to erase, right right. 642 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: It's the extremes, back to the extremes and not looking 643 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: at the science and looking what we were, you know, 644 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: made born evolved to do and I love that, and 645 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,800 Speaker 1: I keep saying, dr le menso I get older, you know, 646 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,760 Speaker 1: I used to exercise and do all that stuff for vanity. 647 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 1: Now it's for sanity, and it is my prayer, it's 648 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 1: my meditation, you know. But like you said, it's hard. 649 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: It's hard to get out the door. The first couple 650 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 1: of miles stinks for everybody. I don't care how long. 651 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: And I would argue the longer you run, the more 652 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 1: you become a runner. It used to take me ten 653 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: twenty minutes to warm up. Now it takes like forty fifty. 654 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 1: And I think that's one of the reasons we run 655 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: longer as we as we get more acculimated to it. 656 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 1: But I totally agree before I let you go, though, 657 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: because I do do triathlons. But uh, we're born to run, 658 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 1: but let's just talk about we're not born to swim. 659 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: So people say, right, let's just I need you on 660 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: a record. I'm afraid that. I'm afraid. Yeah, if you 661 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,800 Speaker 1: I was just I took one day off on this 662 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: trip and we went to a you know, on a 663 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: certainly I took my students on a shirt little safari 664 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: and and you know there's a there's a lake we 665 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:48,400 Speaker 1: went to and I can tell you one of the 666 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: fastest ways to commit suicide would be to jump in 667 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 1: that lake. Right. Um, it's a swimming for month of 668 00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: your revolution was a very dangerous prospect and good and 669 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: and we're able to do it. But but just think 670 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 1: about this way. When Michael Phelps is like setting a 671 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: little record in a pool, right, swimming faster than most 672 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: of us can imagine. Right, Um, you can actually you 673 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: don't have to even break into a run as you're 674 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: walking alongside the pool keeping pace with him, and he's 675 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: spending some ungodly amount of energy when the length of 676 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,320 Speaker 1: that pool. Right, Uh, we are we You know, he 677 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: may be a great swimmer, but compared to a seal 678 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: or an otter or any kind of animal that really 679 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 1: did at him, he sucks um. And so we we 680 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: can do it, but we're not very good at it. 681 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 1: And then obviously bicycling again is not a no not 682 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,880 Speaker 1: obviously reason invention. So that's why I'm comfortable in in 683 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 1: just running and not doings. I'm a very terrible slimmer, 684 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: and I'm actually scared by the speed of bikes and both. 685 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: I just happy to stick to running and I only 686 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 1: do it for the cross training so I don't get injured. Right. 687 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:03,839 Speaker 1: But I'm so glad I have you on record because 688 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: I would say to people when I wrote my books 689 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 1: on triathlon, and they'd say that they were scared to swim, 690 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: you know that they get nervous. I said, that's that's good. 691 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:11,879 Speaker 1: That's your body. You're not supposed to be in the water. 692 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: That's the fight or flight response is natural. Right, that's 693 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 1: where most of the most of the serious thing. That 694 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,720 Speaker 1: absolutely I think like twenty five out of the twenty 695 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,759 Speaker 1: eight or thirty deaths. You're absolutely right, We're in the swim. 696 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:27,800 Speaker 1: So good I have you so I don't have to 697 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:29,720 Speaker 1: swim that much. I'm just gonna focus on the running, 698 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: the thing I most enjoy out of those three disciplines. Um, 699 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 1: thank you so much, Dr Lieberman. And when is the 700 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: new book coming out? Well, I'm just trying to finish it. 701 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 1: So awesome, awesome, Well we have to have you back. 702 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for making the time. Are you 703 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: running Boston this year? Is that the Oh my gosh, 704 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,319 Speaker 1: oh my gosh. Well, I hope to see you there. 705 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 1: I gotta do some running and requalify. And uh, it's 706 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 1: getting a little more difficult as I get older, right, 707 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: even though they slow it down. But hopefully I'll be 708 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 1: there with you. I al would say that the best 709 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: thing that getting over it gets a really easier to 710 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 1: qualify a little easier, right, but the fast guys still 711 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: age up with us. That's the problem. You know that 712 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 1: the field goods well er. Thank you so much, and 713 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: uh look forward to having you back on Thanks so much, 714 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: great speaking with you. Have a great day all right, 715 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: but but and we are back. You know how I 716 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: know I am in the right job, in the right 717 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,239 Speaker 1: career is that I get so excited to talk to 718 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: guys like Dr Daniel Lieberman. That was amazing. And if 719 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:54,359 Speaker 1: that doesn't disrupt some of your fitness beliefs, Holy cow, 720 00:38:55,400 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: how amazing Running bad for your knees? Now dousands of 721 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,399 Speaker 1: studies that show otherwise, and and the osteo arth rightest thing. 722 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 1: How many times have I heard people use that analogy 723 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 1: bet a car? Right? Oh, your body is like a car. 724 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: So we got a certain number of miles in it, 725 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,879 Speaker 1: and the more you use it, the quicker it will 726 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 1: break down. No, not true. The fact that Dr Lieberman 727 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,279 Speaker 1: said hundred and eighty degrees with so many of these 728 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 1: topics in diet and exercise, that's exactly what I believe 729 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: in why we're disrupting this fitness there's so much bad 730 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,520 Speaker 1: information out there. Running is not bad for your knees. 731 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,719 Speaker 1: We were born to run. As he said, if you 732 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 1: have an injury, it's a different story. Doesn't mean you 733 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: can't run, absolutely not. I spent the better part of 734 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 1: my life when I was a coach and a trainer 735 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: training people to be able to run. And actually that 736 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: running for me. Back when I was coaching and training clients, 737 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,680 Speaker 1: that was the greatest test for me to figure out 738 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,359 Speaker 1: what my client weak links were. So they would either 739 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 1: tell me where the pain was when they would run, 740 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: or we would go for a run and figure it out. 741 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: So if they said, you know, after a run, my 742 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: back hurts, or my knee hurts, the outside of my 743 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,800 Speaker 1: knee hurts, bottom of my foot hurts, it's the greatest 744 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 1: test to figure out what your weak links are. And 745 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 1: that's what's always driven me crazy, driven me nuts about 746 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 1: doctors telling I just don't do it, instead of saying why, 747 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 1: figuring out the ideology, the cause of the reason, the 748 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 1: reason why you can't run, you just say don't do it. 749 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,320 Speaker 1: That's nuts, that's not pushing health. You have an issue, 750 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 1: you got to deal with it. And does that mean 751 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,560 Speaker 1: we were all born to run a marathon? Absolutely, not 752 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 1: born to run a half manton No, but if you can, 753 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 1: you should. I don't care how old you are. I 754 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,839 Speaker 1: can't tell you how great it is to have someone 755 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,759 Speaker 1: like Dr Lieberman give you that information. It's so powerful 756 00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 1: and it's exciting, and it should get you excited. And 757 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 1: if you have issues, as so many people do, they're flexible. 758 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,320 Speaker 1: You have control, but you gotta be smart about it. 759 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 1: You gotta be consistent, and you gotta give it time. Smart, 760 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,280 Speaker 1: consistent in time. There's three things that just don't exist 761 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:23,400 Speaker 1: in in in almost everything pushed forth in the fitness 762 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:27,360 Speaker 1: world and diet world. Smart you mean, we got to 763 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: use science, consistent and time small changes over time. But 764 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,160 Speaker 1: we were born to run. Be excited for what you 765 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,959 Speaker 1: just heard from Dr Lieberman. If you have our thris 766 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 1: so many ple I love you know, I just turned 767 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 1: fifty and friends and people will say, went to the 768 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 1: doctor and there are maybe and they'll say, oh, you 769 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:53,440 Speaker 1: know I have some arthritists. Really well, that's normal, you know. 770 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:59,239 Speaker 1: But as Dr Lieberman said, exercise will help that, not 771 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: speed it up. We were born to move our joints, 772 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:09,799 Speaker 1: our tissues get their nourishment, become healthier when they move 773 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 1: through their full range of motion consistently. That's awesome. I 774 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,240 Speaker 1: love talking to guys like Dr Liebman. I love putting 775 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,759 Speaker 1: the record straight. So there you go, now, you know, 776 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,319 Speaker 1: And if you're a runner, get excited. And if you're 777 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:29,520 Speaker 1: not a runner but weren't doing it because you thought 778 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 1: it was bad for your knees, get started. If you 779 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,800 Speaker 1: want do that five k race, if weight loss is 780 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,720 Speaker 1: your goal, there's no better way to burn some calories 781 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,759 Speaker 1: than running. It's one reason most people who don't do 782 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:42,920 Speaker 1: it don't do it because it's hard. But it's hard 783 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 1: because it burns a lot of calories. So the easier exercises, 784 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:48,799 Speaker 1: generally speaking, the fewer calories that burns. So if if 785 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 1: your goal is to burn calories, if you can, then 786 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,279 Speaker 1: you run. But as Dr Lieberman and I talked about, 787 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: there's so much more to it. I run from my head. 788 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:03,320 Speaker 1: I run to explore, I run to enjoy the environment. 789 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,520 Speaker 1: When I travel to see the world. I run because 790 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:11,520 Speaker 1: I can, and I never forget that, lose sight of 791 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,719 Speaker 1: the fact that I'm healthy enough to do it. And 792 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,759 Speaker 1: as Dr Lieberman said, most runners have a love hate 793 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: relationship with it, but he said it perfectly. You never 794 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 1: finish a run feeling worse than you did when you started. 795 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,319 Speaker 1: And anyone who's run for any amount of time knows 796 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,880 Speaker 1: that the longer you run, as in time wise as 797 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 1: in years, the more you realize that. So when I'm 798 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 1: not feeling good mentally, I go out for a run. 799 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,400 Speaker 1: It is one of the most powerful ways to combat 800 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:44,440 Speaker 1: depression and so many other things. So thank you so 801 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,320 Speaker 1: much for listening to Fitness Disrupted. I am Tom Holland. 802 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,719 Speaker 1: You can listen to the show at Apple Podcasts, on 803 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio app, or wherever you listen to podcasts, And 804 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 1: please do me a favor follow this show so you 805 00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:58,320 Speaker 1: don't miss one. And I want to hear from you. 806 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 1: Want to hear what you think, what you want me 807 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,239 Speaker 1: to talk about, anything and everything. Please leave a review 808 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,160 Speaker 1: of the show, tell me what you think of it 809 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,359 Speaker 1: and anything you want to uh to hear about. Let 810 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,240 Speaker 1: me know, leave it in the comments. So absolutely weight lost, 811 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 1: so many people's goals. It's going to help in an 812 00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:19,600 Speaker 1: incredible way. But just like exercise gives you so much 813 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 1: more as a whole than just pure weight loss, so 814 00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,640 Speaker 1: does running. So there you have it. Dr Daniel Lieberman 815 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:32,400 Speaker 1: from Harvard busting that myth once and for all is 816 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:36,480 Speaker 1: running bad for your knees? I don't think so, and 817 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:40,880 Speaker 1: he doesn't either. I am Tom Holland. This is Fitness Disrupted, 818 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:50,960 Speaker 1: Believe in Yourself. Fitness Disrupted as a production of I 819 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,799 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit 820 00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:58,120 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 821 00:44:58,280 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.