WEBVTT - David Paich 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:23.876 Pushkin, Cheryl Lyn's Got to Be Real, Steely Dan's Black Friday, 0:00:24.356 --> 0:00:28.036 Toto's Georgie Porgi all some of the most monster keyboard 0:00:28.076 --> 0:00:31.476 piano grooves of all time, and they all have at 0:00:31.556 --> 0:00:35.476 least one man in common. That's prolific musician and songwriter 0:00:35.796 --> 0:00:39.676 David Page. David honed his chops early growing up in 0:00:39.796 --> 0:00:42.476 la where he worked under the tutelage of his father, 0:00:42.676 --> 0:00:46.276 Marty Pache, an esteem composer who worked with artists like 0:00:46.356 --> 0:00:51.476 mel Tormat, Ray Charles, and even Ella Fitzgerald. While in 0:00:51.516 --> 0:00:55.436 college at USC, David started playing keyboard professionally and touring 0:00:55.436 --> 0:00:57.956 with Sonny and cher From there, he went on to 0:00:58.036 --> 0:01:00.676 co write and play on Boss Gags multi platinum album 0:01:00.796 --> 0:01:04.636 Silk Degrees. He also worked extensively with Quincy Jones, playing 0:01:04.676 --> 0:01:08.916 up multiple iconic albums including Michael Jackson's Thriller and Bad. 0:01:09.996 --> 0:01:12.716 All throughout his work as a session musician, David also 0:01:12.756 --> 0:01:16.316 served as Toto's principal songwriter and wrote chart topping hits 0:01:16.356 --> 0:01:20.836 like Rosanna, Hold the Line, and, of course, most famously, Africa. 0:01:22.076 --> 0:01:24.516 On today's episode, I talked to David Page about what 0:01:24.556 --> 0:01:26.636 it was like to be such an accomplished player at 0:01:26.636 --> 0:01:30.076 such a young age. He shares crazy stories about working 0:01:30.116 --> 0:01:32.796 with Michael Jackson and Quincy on Thriller and how he 0:01:32.836 --> 0:01:35.236 came up with the intro to Michael Jackson's Human Nature, 0:01:35.476 --> 0:01:39.596 probably the greatest keyboard riff of all time. David also 0:01:39.636 --> 0:01:41.876 plays part some some of the best songs he's written 0:01:42.076 --> 0:01:47.316 and talks about how they came to be. This is 0:01:47.396 --> 0:01:51.196 broken record liner notes for the digital Age. I'm justin Mitchman. 0:01:51.876 --> 0:01:56.356 Here's my conversation with David Page. A few weeks ago, 0:01:56.636 --> 0:02:00.236 I was on a run and Cheryl Lyn's got to 0:02:00.236 --> 0:02:02.476 Be Real came all. I was on my run and 0:02:02.836 --> 0:02:06.236 I was like, that's the perfect groove, Like the keyboard 0:02:06.436 --> 0:02:08.076 is the perfect ground. Was like, I gotta go home 0:02:08.076 --> 0:02:09.836 and learn that. So I went home trying to messing around, 0:02:09.876 --> 0:02:12.676 and She's like, who played on this? I had no idea. 0:02:12.716 --> 0:02:15.716 I looked it up and it was you. Yeah. I 0:02:15.756 --> 0:02:17.876 was like, what the fuck? It was me? 0:02:17.876 --> 0:02:20.076 Me and Ray Parker helped me put the rhythm section together. 0:02:20.116 --> 0:02:22.396 We got Gadson and a guy that just moved out 0:02:22.396 --> 0:02:25.676 from Detroit and played on the Emotions record named David Shields, 0:02:25.916 --> 0:02:27.836 and that was like the last record he did was 0:02:27.876 --> 0:02:30.476 like got to Be Real kind of thing. But that 0:02:30.556 --> 0:02:33.156 was a great rhythm section, and uh we cut that 0:02:33.356 --> 0:02:36.676 and uh it's one of my favorite R and B 0:02:36.836 --> 0:02:38.476 things that I've ever done, you know what I mean? 0:02:38.596 --> 0:02:41.596 Do you mind playing just the I'll show you. 0:02:41.716 --> 0:02:44.396 The song started this way with me coming in with 0:02:44.436 --> 0:02:46.876 a riff and Cheryl started singing a little bit, and 0:02:46.916 --> 0:02:49.636 then David Foster came in and we were I was 0:02:49.676 --> 0:02:53.236 in Sunset sound and he came in and played a 0:02:53.236 --> 0:02:55.636 little B section for me. You know, but a riff was. 0:03:16.716 --> 0:03:18.516 Right, the greatest groove. 0:03:18.676 --> 0:03:20.876 Yeah, and I heard a Mariah Carey song. It sounds 0:03:20.876 --> 0:03:23.156 like it sounds just about like got to be Real. 0:03:23.476 --> 0:03:25.316 She's got a song out where they just came out 0:03:25.356 --> 0:03:27.916 right after that. Really it sounded like got to be Real. Yeah, 0:03:28.036 --> 0:03:32.396 same changes, no, no, no, man like it's all good. 0:03:32.676 --> 0:03:32.876 You know. 0:03:33.036 --> 0:03:34.636 Your dad was a producer on that, right, I was 0:03:34.716 --> 0:03:35.276 co producer. 0:03:35.276 --> 0:03:37.836 We co produced that together. He kind of discovered her, 0:03:37.916 --> 0:03:41.156 you know what I mean. It's nineteen seventy eight, nineteen 0:03:41.196 --> 0:03:45.276 seventy eight, you're right, and you're called in by your dad. 0:03:45.756 --> 0:03:49.396 My dad made a call to someone at Sony, which 0:03:49.476 --> 0:03:51.796 was CBS at the time, and so I just heard 0:03:51.796 --> 0:03:56.156 this girl. He had a friend that worked Butler, I 0:03:56.196 --> 0:03:59.956 forget what his first name was, the jazz department at Sony, 0:04:00.396 --> 0:04:01.996 and my dad called him and said, I just heard 0:04:02.036 --> 0:04:06.076 this girl on the Gong Show, Cherylnn. And he says, well, 0:04:06.116 --> 0:04:08.396 funny enough, we're trying to do an album with her 0:04:08.436 --> 0:04:10.796 right now, some cuts with her, and so they gave 0:04:10.796 --> 0:04:12.836 it to my dad. My dad, I was had come 0:04:12.876 --> 0:04:16.436 off with Silk Degrees with bos Skaggs, so my dad said, well, 0:04:16.476 --> 0:04:19.356 if I team up with David, let's co produce this thing. 0:04:19.476 --> 0:04:22.116 So we ended up co producing her first album, you. 0:04:22.036 --> 0:04:25.276 Know, and David Foster is a part of that. 0:04:25.396 --> 0:04:27.036 He is a part of that. He came in just 0:04:27.036 --> 0:04:29.996 for a second. I was at Sunset Sound and Foster 0:04:30.196 --> 0:04:31.996 just came over to hear what we were doing, and 0:04:32.036 --> 0:04:34.036 I said, I'm working on the song. Got to be real, 0:04:34.116 --> 0:04:40.076 so you know, he went and I went and he did. 0:04:49.996 --> 0:05:00.276 You know. You know, so when you're called in to 0:05:00.396 --> 0:05:02.676 work on a song like that or I mean, obviously this, 0:05:02.756 --> 0:05:04.516 you're a bigger part of this project in general, But 0:05:04.516 --> 0:05:06.956 when you're working on a song like that, how did 0:05:06.956 --> 0:05:09.476 that riff come to be? Like how did well. 0:05:09.556 --> 0:05:12.996 I heard it was kind of influenced by the emotions 0:05:13.036 --> 0:05:15.356 to the song called Best of My Love. Yes, and 0:05:15.396 --> 0:05:20.796 I heard don and I like that beat, but I 0:05:20.796 --> 0:05:27.596 always like putting the hump in it, you know, you know? 0:05:27.796 --> 0:05:29.836 And I dansting on drums, you know what I mean. 0:05:29.876 --> 0:05:31.516 He just killed it, you know what I mean. 0:05:32.556 --> 0:05:36.036 Yeah, And at the same time, after I found that out, 0:05:36.156 --> 0:05:37.756 I was looking at the year seventy eight, and I 0:05:37.796 --> 0:05:41.796 realized at the same time that that record is huge. 0:05:42.236 --> 0:05:43.956 You're putting out Toto's first. 0:05:44.076 --> 0:05:49.036 Yeah, first album. And consequently Cheryl sang on Georgie. 0:05:48.596 --> 0:05:50.476 Porgie Porgie, which I never knew that was her. 0:05:50.676 --> 0:05:52.756 Yeah, that was her. She just came in because we 0:05:52.756 --> 0:05:54.476 weren't going to do put the song on, because I 0:05:54.636 --> 0:05:56.916 get to the part I'd just say it Georgie Pogi 0:05:57.036 --> 0:05:59.796 put and it was just like whitebread, you know what 0:05:59.796 --> 0:06:02.156 I mean. And Cheryllynn heard it and she goes, well, 0:06:02.196 --> 0:06:04.996 let me sing that, and she goes Georgie Polgy put 0:06:05.796 --> 0:06:07.796 kiss the Girls and we crossed over under the R 0:06:07.836 --> 0:06:10.716 and B market had sold like a million copies. 0:06:10.756 --> 0:06:13.596 Man, So do you remember writing that song Georgie? 0:06:14.276 --> 0:06:17.876 Yeah, I was listening to a lot of dance music. 0:06:17.916 --> 0:06:20.196 I was listening to a lot of Verry White because 0:06:20.236 --> 0:06:22.676 he had started his stuff with piano, and I was 0:06:22.716 --> 0:06:26.316 listening to Quincy Jones on I Want You album with 0:06:26.356 --> 0:06:32.116 Marvin Gaye, and because my friend, uh leon Ware was 0:06:32.156 --> 0:06:34.836 a friend of my dad's and I had written something 0:06:34.876 --> 0:06:38.116 with leon Ware, and I was very influenced by that 0:06:38.156 --> 0:06:41.276 album and that Chuck Rainey and Gadson on and those 0:06:41.276 --> 0:06:43.956 guys beautiful sound I Want You, you know what I mean. 0:06:44.356 --> 0:06:45.596 And it was very much that. 0:06:52.356 --> 0:06:55.196 H m hm hm. 0:06:57.276 --> 0:07:05.596 I it was kind of very white thing. Remember very white? 0:07:05.636 --> 0:07:17.236 Did you know? It's kind of came out of that era, 0:07:17.476 --> 0:07:18.076 you know what I mean. 0:07:19.276 --> 0:07:21.756 This is your first album with Toto. Now you're accomplished. 0:07:21.796 --> 0:07:23.196 We'll talk about it. But you mean, you've played on 0:07:23.276 --> 0:07:26.436 so many records throughout the seventies. How are you thinking 0:07:26.436 --> 0:07:29.876 about writing this song? You have that wonderful piece, You 0:07:29.916 --> 0:07:32.556 maybe have that second part, that Bury White rind and piece. 0:07:32.596 --> 0:07:34.076 How you put it together? The lyrics. 0:07:34.116 --> 0:07:36.956 That's just because I've learned to get the form of 0:07:36.996 --> 0:07:39.236 a song right, to have a verse, a B section, 0:07:39.316 --> 0:07:41.596 and a chorus and then kind of an maybe an 0:07:41.636 --> 0:07:43.996 instrumental or a bridge, and I'm not a big fan 0:07:44.076 --> 0:07:47.556 of bridges. I used to like verse chorus instrumental and 0:07:47.596 --> 0:07:49.876 take it out, no bridge for you bridge because people, 0:07:50.076 --> 0:07:52.476 well they kind of throw bridges away. I like the 0:07:52.476 --> 0:07:54.916 Beatles and Elton and these guys. When they write a bridge, 0:07:55.156 --> 0:07:57.516 it's like it lifts the song, which is what a 0:07:57.516 --> 0:07:59.156 bridge should do to be, you know what I mean? 0:07:59.236 --> 0:08:02.756 Yeah, yeah, you know, at what point would you take 0:08:02.796 --> 0:08:04.396 a song like that to the rest of the group. 0:08:04.876 --> 0:08:06.756 Right as soon as we start gotting our deal, and 0:08:06.796 --> 0:08:10.196 I've been playing this a little bit song a little 0:08:10.236 --> 0:08:12.836 bit with Jeff. We would go and do sessions together 0:08:13.196 --> 0:08:15.796 and on the breaks when everybody else was out of 0:08:15.836 --> 0:08:17.996 the room, I'd started playing these things and Jeff was 0:08:18.196 --> 0:08:20.236 getting to the group. So we rehearsed a lot of 0:08:20.236 --> 0:08:22.516 our album on other people's records, you know what I mean, 0:08:22.556 --> 0:08:25.636 playing just jamming on them when there's brakes or no 0:08:25.676 --> 0:08:27.796 one's in the room or whatever. You know. So when 0:08:27.796 --> 0:08:29.316 I got to the record, I had like two or 0:08:29.316 --> 0:08:31.476 three things already cooking, you know what I mean. 0:08:32.036 --> 0:08:33.156 How did you guys get your deal? 0:08:34.196 --> 0:08:36.996 Interesting? We never had to perform live to get our 0:08:37.036 --> 0:08:39.396 deal with like the only group and the only group 0:08:39.396 --> 0:08:43.196 that got to produce itself. We had people named Don Ellis, 0:08:43.596 --> 0:08:46.956 vice president of CBS, and a guy named Terry Powell. 0:08:47.396 --> 0:08:50.796 And after we'd done the Boss Skaggs record So Degrees, 0:08:50.836 --> 0:08:53.316 there was a lot of spotlight on us because we 0:08:53.316 --> 0:08:56.036 were the rhythm section for that whole record. And then 0:08:56.076 --> 0:08:57.596 we came in and went out on the road with 0:08:57.676 --> 0:09:01.316 him too, and toured with Boss and so CBS was like, well, 0:09:01.316 --> 0:09:03.276 why did you guys form a band? And we had 0:09:03.316 --> 0:09:05.876 already been planning this whole thing since high school to 0:09:05.956 --> 0:09:08.996 put our band back together high school band. So we 0:09:09.236 --> 0:09:11.596 were like, oh, good, idea, you guys. We just we 0:09:11.636 --> 0:09:15.596 started working on demos then, and I did miss Son 0:09:15.636 --> 0:09:18.636 for a demo, which was Boss skag Song, a song 0:09:18.676 --> 0:09:22.156 I wrote for Boz. And we just did some demos 0:09:22.196 --> 0:09:25.596 and I started writing more, you know, getting into my writing, 0:09:25.956 --> 0:09:27.116 and it just happened. 0:09:27.276 --> 0:09:29.916 And because you guys were so adept in the studio, 0:09:29.996 --> 0:09:31.916 they were totally comfortable letting you guys, just. 0:09:32.076 --> 0:09:34.996 As they were letting us do whatever we wanted to do. 0:09:35.116 --> 0:09:37.596 You know, you know, what does it feel like to 0:09:37.636 --> 0:09:40.396 be you in nineteen seventy eight? I mean Georgia Porgy's 0:09:40.396 --> 0:09:40.836 on the radio. 0:09:40.956 --> 0:09:43.876 Hold the lines on the radio. Yes, yeah, it was 0:09:43.876 --> 0:09:46.316 great to be on the radio. First time we heard 0:09:46.316 --> 0:09:49.996 ourselves on the radio. We we all called each other 0:09:50.076 --> 0:09:52.036 so fast in the radio. I was at my sister's 0:09:52.276 --> 0:09:56.996 apartment and I heard this thing piano I heard and 0:09:57.036 --> 0:10:00.196 I said, that sounds really familiar, said, it sounds like me. 0:10:00.276 --> 0:10:03.636 It actually sounds like me playing. Oh fuck, that's our record. 0:10:03.836 --> 0:10:06.236 It's on the radio. And every we were all calling 0:10:06.236 --> 0:10:09.756 the radio stations requesting it and ship like that like teenagers, 0:10:09.796 --> 0:10:10.316 you know what I mean. 0:10:10.996 --> 0:10:13.076 And it did it feel different with it actually being 0:10:13.156 --> 0:10:15.116 your group, Yes, your song versus. 0:10:15.596 --> 0:10:18.556 And we were like, we were like screaming kids, you 0:10:18.596 --> 0:10:20.596 know what I mean. Oh my god, I can't believe it. 0:10:20.836 --> 0:10:22.676 We were tried calling each other and all the lines 0:10:22.716 --> 0:10:24.276 were busy because we were all calling each other. 0:10:24.276 --> 0:10:25.596 Calling each other, calling the radio. 0:10:25.956 --> 0:10:29.116 That's right, all calling all of our friends request the song. 0:10:29.436 --> 0:10:31.396 You know what I mean. Because back to then, if 0:10:31.396 --> 0:10:34.316 you have people called in enough, they'd added to the station. 0:10:34.476 --> 0:10:35.716 You know what station? 0:10:35.756 --> 0:10:38.636 Were you guys first getting played on kJ R UP 0:10:38.676 --> 0:10:41.996 in Seattle. There was a guy named Steve West who 0:10:42.036 --> 0:10:44.676 was a friend of our managers because our managers had 0:10:44.716 --> 0:10:49.236 managed Chicago and RUFUS amazing, that's what they had, and 0:10:49.276 --> 0:10:53.516 so they knew program directors all around the United States. 0:10:53.756 --> 0:10:55.756 So this guy they hopped on it, and as soon 0:10:55.796 --> 0:10:58.236 as a p one which is the top radio stations 0:10:58.356 --> 0:11:00.796 or p ones, as soon as he went on it, 0:11:00.796 --> 0:11:03.836 it broke and everybody went on it, you know, and 0:11:03.836 --> 0:11:05.876 then we ended up going double plattinum the record. 0:11:06.236 --> 0:11:08.636 Obviously, if you listen to that first record, it's pretty 0:11:08.636 --> 0:11:11.916 clear you got as are fluent musically, like you can 0:11:11.996 --> 0:11:15.636 play anything. I was always curious if on the label 0:11:15.716 --> 0:11:18.636 side or manager side, was there ever any like, well, 0:11:18.676 --> 0:11:21.356 guys that hold the line feels very different from Georgie Porge. 0:11:21.396 --> 0:11:24.916 Absolutely. They were like, there's a lot of the comments 0:11:24.916 --> 0:11:27.356 where there's no thread. You guys don't have a sound. 0:11:27.396 --> 0:11:29.516 What is your sound? We can't tell you if you're 0:11:29.556 --> 0:11:31.556 an R and B group or you're a rock and 0:11:31.636 --> 0:11:35.636 roll group or adult contemporary group. What are you? We 0:11:35.716 --> 0:11:37.556 just said, this is it, this is what we are. 0:11:37.876 --> 0:11:38.876 We do all this stuff. 0:11:39.036 --> 0:11:40.836 Yeah, you know what I mean, because to your point, 0:11:40.876 --> 0:11:43.276 Georgie Porgie feels like a song that would have like 0:11:43.356 --> 0:11:45.036 you know, I mean the way they group things back then, 0:11:45.076 --> 0:11:46.556 that would have been like a song would have been 0:11:46.556 --> 0:11:49.196 a huge hit on black radio, the line there's no 0:11:49.236 --> 0:11:50.676 way that would have ever played on you know. 0:11:50.836 --> 0:11:52.516 Totally right, you know what I mean. It was all 0:11:52.836 --> 0:11:55.556 thought of like that, you know, But that's why we 0:11:55.596 --> 0:11:57.556 want to be different. We wanted to just do what 0:11:57.796 --> 0:12:00.716 a good music of any kind, any genre. 0:12:00.836 --> 0:12:02.836 You know, when you guys started going out on that record, 0:12:02.956 --> 0:12:04.956 what were you noticing about your audience? Was it growing 0:12:04.956 --> 0:12:05.436 over time? 0:12:05.556 --> 0:12:07.956 It was? It was a little bit. You know, we 0:12:07.996 --> 0:12:12.156 had we wait until we had again the double platinum 0:12:12.196 --> 0:12:15.196 album before we went out and started touring a little bit. 0:12:15.276 --> 0:12:15.476 You know. 0:12:15.716 --> 0:12:17.756 That was uncommon then too. I mean that's a common 0:12:18.356 --> 0:12:21.396 occurrence now that someone has this huge album or huge 0:12:21.396 --> 0:12:22.716 song and then has to go figure out how to 0:12:22.716 --> 0:12:26.156 go do a lot. That's right, That's right. Less common then, yeah. 0:12:26.036 --> 0:12:27.916 Less common then. Yeah, you had to kind of work 0:12:27.956 --> 0:12:30.476 your way up and make an audience. But the thing happened. 0:12:30.756 --> 0:12:33.676 It broke in Europe. Now we didn't know what Europe 0:12:33.716 --> 0:12:36.196 was all about. Europe In Amsterdam, there was a guy 0:12:36.236 --> 0:12:39.636 named big Al who was the DJ there and he 0:12:39.756 --> 0:12:43.156 broke I think hold the line there at Amsterdam and 0:12:43.276 --> 0:12:48.036 Europe just went nuts, like beatle crazy nuts over this stuff. 0:12:48.436 --> 0:12:51.676 So when we did a promotional tour there, they took 0:12:51.716 --> 0:12:53.396 us around to all the clubs where they were playing 0:12:53.396 --> 0:12:55.996 their music and it was just like it was great, 0:12:56.116 --> 0:12:57.436 you know what I mean. There was just so many 0:12:57.436 --> 0:13:01.236 people screaming and everything like that. But he broke our record, 0:13:01.396 --> 0:13:04.076 and then we started getting offers for gigs with good 0:13:04.156 --> 0:13:07.796 money back then to come in and play shows, you know, 0:13:07.876 --> 0:13:11.236 to headline and should O were in Europe and stuff. 0:13:11.356 --> 0:13:14.476 So Europe has just been a big cash cow and 0:13:14.556 --> 0:13:19.276 a great long, multi generational audience for us since then. 0:13:19.636 --> 0:13:22.276 And they never even you cannot have a hit record 0:13:22.276 --> 0:13:24.356 for a long time, and they're still becoming to your 0:13:24.596 --> 0:13:28.236 concerts and stuff like that, very loyal fans and great 0:13:28.396 --> 0:13:30.436 music audiences over Europe. 0:13:30.596 --> 0:13:33.196 You had your your like an incredible career as a 0:13:33.196 --> 0:13:36.596 as a studio guy at the time. Were you thinking 0:13:36.716 --> 0:13:38.716 for sure that first record was going to be what 0:13:38.796 --> 0:13:39.996 it was that would have. 0:13:39.876 --> 0:13:41.596 The people were planning on it. 0:13:41.596 --> 0:13:41.876 We were. 0:13:42.396 --> 0:13:45.116 We always had confidence in ourselves. It's some one thing total. 0:13:45.196 --> 0:13:47.876 Did we knew what we could do if we got 0:13:47.876 --> 0:13:49.036 the chance, you know what I mean? 0:13:49.196 --> 0:13:51.516 So you guys were ready to become the main show. 0:13:52.236 --> 0:13:54.516 Yeah. Yeah, we were shooting for the big time the 0:13:54.636 --> 0:13:55.196 whole time. 0:13:55.476 --> 0:13:58.076 So tell me a bit about growing up. What were 0:13:58.116 --> 0:13:58.756 you for some encounters. 0:13:59.076 --> 0:14:02.236 I grew up in Resita till I was five and 0:14:03.596 --> 0:14:06.516 my father. I remember my father playing piano. He had 0:14:06.556 --> 0:14:08.756 a piano room there. You did all his writing, and 0:14:08.796 --> 0:14:11.516 I'm in we were hearing the Blues in the Night 0:14:12.196 --> 0:14:17.596 in there, my mom and then told me, you know, 0:14:17.636 --> 0:14:19.276 Blues in the Night. He had done a version with 0:14:19.316 --> 0:14:22.516 Elephantz Cheryl and mel Tourmee, And so that was the 0:14:22.516 --> 0:14:25.276 first song that I picked out on a piano. My 0:14:25.356 --> 0:14:27.356 dad heard me picking it out, so he said, you 0:14:27.356 --> 0:14:29.236 need to know how to play that. Then I started 0:14:29.236 --> 0:14:31.596 taking piano lessons and stuff. That's who you knew that 0:14:31.636 --> 0:14:33.716 I had some kind of gift, you know. 0:14:34.036 --> 0:14:34.956 And you were a kid kid at that. 0:14:35.036 --> 0:14:37.836 Yeah, it was like five five, okay, But I didn't 0:14:37.836 --> 0:14:39.756 start studying piano until I was eight because I got 0:14:39.756 --> 0:14:43.076 into drums. My dad was using a drummer named Shelley Mann. 0:14:43.516 --> 0:14:45.436 Shelley Mann just did a whole bunch of things with 0:14:45.476 --> 0:14:48.556 Bill Evans, and he did all the Mansini stuff. He 0:14:48.556 --> 0:14:51.396 had to Shelley the Man and the Manhole his club. 0:14:51.836 --> 0:14:53.356 But I used to sit next to him and just 0:14:53.396 --> 0:14:55.396 watch him play drums, and that's all I could think 0:14:55.436 --> 0:14:57.476 about twenty four hours a day was drums. 0:14:57.596 --> 0:14:57.956 Wow. 0:14:57.996 --> 0:15:00.996 And then I started getting more serious about a piano 0:15:01.476 --> 0:15:03.436 when my dad said, you know, if you have to 0:15:03.436 --> 0:15:05.996 get your technique together, you're not going to be able 0:15:05.996 --> 0:15:08.476 to make it. So I got a warning. I got 0:15:08.476 --> 0:15:10.756 a wake up call early, and by the time I 0:15:10.796 --> 0:15:13.756 was twelve, I started studying classical music. My dad put 0:15:13.796 --> 0:15:16.156 me with a classical teacher and I started, you know, 0:15:16.316 --> 0:15:18.076 going through all the literature and stuff like that. 0:15:18.116 --> 0:15:19.876 Were you into it at that time? Get into the 0:15:19.876 --> 0:15:20.276 class No? 0:15:20.636 --> 0:15:22.876 Okay, no, but I do. I wanted to be a 0:15:22.916 --> 0:15:26.556 professional musician. So I was like, whatever it takes, this 0:15:26.596 --> 0:15:27.796 is the world I'm going down. 0:15:28.116 --> 0:15:30.236 Fine, even it feels like it's taking you further away 0:15:30.356 --> 0:15:32.236 from even if it's like it's hard and it has 0:15:32.236 --> 0:15:34.756 nothing to do with rock and jazz, you know, but 0:15:34.836 --> 0:15:35.316 I knew that. 0:15:35.396 --> 0:15:38.396 My dad said, Oscar Peterson study classical. All these guys 0:15:38.396 --> 0:15:40.596 study classical, you know, so if you want to play 0:15:40.636 --> 0:15:43.276 like Oscar, you better spend the time, you know. 0:15:43.396 --> 0:15:45.556 I feel like a lot of times kids want to 0:15:45.716 --> 0:15:48.556 buck their parents or you know, my dad was a 0:15:48.716 --> 0:15:51.676 played football and so I wanted nothing to do with football, 0:15:51.876 --> 0:15:54.516 you know, professional. He did play professionally for a bit 0:15:54.596 --> 0:15:55.356 and got injured. 0:15:55.396 --> 0:15:58.316 But ooh man, I'm a big NFL nut. 0:15:58.556 --> 0:16:01.716 Everyone is, and I'm not, just honestly because because it 0:16:01.756 --> 0:16:04.796 was just too prosibly like everything was. 0:16:04.836 --> 0:16:07.556 Like, oh yeah, I bet, I bet you were just. 0:16:07.596 --> 0:16:09.836 Smothered with that shit. Within I was just like, you know, 0:16:09.956 --> 0:16:11.756 I want to go. I want to go do music 0:16:11.876 --> 0:16:13.396 or whatever. I mean, what do you think it is 0:16:13.436 --> 0:16:15.396 about your relationship with your dad that allowed you to 0:16:16.276 --> 0:16:18.516 connect with them with what he does professionally? 0:16:18.556 --> 0:16:21.276 Well, because I love music and I was a very 0:16:21.396 --> 0:16:24.516 quiet kid, and you had to be quiet in those days. 0:16:24.516 --> 0:16:28.036 You couldn't talk at all when the music studio with 0:16:28.076 --> 0:16:31.116 my dad. There's no talking log with musicians or anything 0:16:31.276 --> 0:16:33.356 like that. You have to be. It was a deaf mute, 0:16:33.676 --> 0:16:35.756 you know what I mean. So me and my dad 0:16:35.796 --> 0:16:38.716 got along real great, and he showed me how to 0:16:38.716 --> 0:16:41.716 do things, you know, and we watched football and baseball 0:16:41.716 --> 0:16:45.116 together and stuff. But he was always working. So the 0:16:45.196 --> 0:16:47.716 first job I had, Joseph Williams and I talk about 0:16:47.716 --> 0:16:49.676 this all the time because my dad was peers with 0:16:49.756 --> 0:16:52.676 John Williams. They were good friends, Joseph. When I talk 0:16:52.716 --> 0:16:56.636 about our first jobs as students to them were sharpening 0:16:56.676 --> 0:16:59.156 his pencils and making sure they didn't run out over racers. 0:16:59.756 --> 0:17:02.236 That's your job. You sit in a room all day long, 0:17:02.676 --> 0:17:06.356 not say a word, and just hear you hear on 0:17:06.556 --> 0:17:10.116 sharpening pencils in the room, like all day long. 0:17:10.516 --> 0:17:11.156 Amazing. 0:17:11.476 --> 0:17:14.436 That's what we did. And finally started I start singing 0:17:14.476 --> 0:17:16.636 a few things. My dad goes, can sing me a 0:17:16.636 --> 0:17:19.476 line here for this, and I'd sing a line in 0:17:19.516 --> 0:17:21.356 an arrangement and he'd use it, you know what I mean. 0:17:21.436 --> 0:17:22.556 He was composing arranging. 0:17:22.596 --> 0:17:25.756 He was composing and arranging for the fifth dimension. He 0:17:25.796 --> 0:17:28.356 did up, up and a way for them, you know. 0:17:28.436 --> 0:17:31.156 He did the produced and arrange the way we were 0:17:31.476 --> 0:17:35.636 for Barbara Streissan and all these big orchestral things. You know. 0:17:35.756 --> 0:17:37.956 So and I got to help him on those arrangements. 0:17:37.996 --> 0:17:40.316 You know, once you got to a certain level, would 0:17:40.316 --> 0:17:43.516 he show you how he approached Yes, those things. 0:17:43.236 --> 0:17:46.596 Absolutely, yeah, I got them. And he'd a master's degree 0:17:46.876 --> 0:17:50.356 in music composition, so he knew how to teach me. 0:17:50.596 --> 0:17:52.716 But he'd never stopped writing. He was a writing machine 0:17:52.756 --> 0:17:55.916 like John Williams. Same thing, the writing machine, you know 0:17:56.036 --> 0:17:58.956 all they do. You just see him writing pencil to paper, 0:17:59.076 --> 0:18:02.436 you know. And it's amazing what those guys can that 0:18:02.676 --> 0:18:05.876 neew because of their classical training, how that would translate 0:18:05.996 --> 0:18:08.516 to orchestra, you know, when you just have a piano. 0:18:08.716 --> 0:18:11.436 Guys now because they can play a synthem, they can 0:18:11.516 --> 0:18:13.756 play a string sound, they can play a flute sound, 0:18:13.796 --> 0:18:16.436 you can hear. Oh that'll work, you know what I mean. 0:18:16.676 --> 0:18:19.796 Where back then they just had pianos, you know, you 0:18:20.076 --> 0:18:22.876 have samplers and all that stuff. You know. So my 0:18:22.996 --> 0:18:27.116 dad taught me. Literally, I was as apprentice for twenty years. 0:18:27.156 --> 0:18:28.916 You know, gosh, it was great. 0:18:28.956 --> 0:18:30.916 Did he have any like maxims or things he would 0:18:30.916 --> 0:18:32.716 always return to and things he'd always tell you, like 0:18:32.756 --> 0:18:34.916 things had lots of rules. 0:18:35.076 --> 0:18:38.596 Yeah, probably like your dad had some rules. 0:18:38.636 --> 0:18:40.316 Yeah, that's good about that. 0:18:40.436 --> 0:18:42.796 Yeah, my dad was like, you know, hey, the melody, 0:18:42.876 --> 0:18:45.036 the singer is the most important part. Make sure you 0:18:45.036 --> 0:18:48.676 can hear the melody, the singer, the singers, the whole thing, 0:18:49.036 --> 0:18:51.476 the singer and the song, you know, and you're you're 0:18:51.556 --> 0:18:54.196 just servicing the singer, you know, and he worked with 0:18:54.276 --> 0:19:02.196 just great singers, you know, Lena Horne, Sammy Davis, Jesse Belvin, Ella, 0:19:02.516 --> 0:19:07.156 Sarah vaugh Ray, Charles, I mean everyone insane. 0:19:07.356 --> 0:19:09.916 Yeah, at what point did you realize that talent level 0:19:09.916 --> 0:19:11.516 of talent your dad was working with. 0:19:11.916 --> 0:19:14.116 I didn't until we would start. We would start going 0:19:14.116 --> 0:19:17.116 to shows at the Greek Theater and Sammy Davis would 0:19:17.156 --> 0:19:19.556 be there or somebody like that, and they'd introduce my dad, 0:19:19.596 --> 0:19:22.676 put a spotlight on him in the audience, and I went, wow, 0:19:22.996 --> 0:19:25.676 my dad would stand up, everybody applauding for him, you know, 0:19:25.716 --> 0:19:29.316 And once I heard that, that's pretty cool, amazing. Yeah, 0:19:30.036 --> 0:19:33.116 just be a kid in your and everybody respects your dad. 0:19:33.156 --> 0:19:37.276 That's all they got. All the adults who worked for 0:19:37.396 --> 0:19:39.876 my dad were super nice to me. They treated me 0:19:39.916 --> 0:19:42.276 like I was an adult. And they were all dressed 0:19:42.316 --> 0:19:45.476 so cool. They're just like all the dressing guys came from, 0:19:45.516 --> 0:19:48.596 like Ellington's band, the way those guys would gold cuff 0:19:48.636 --> 0:19:52.916 links and loose ties and hats on and lots of 0:19:52.956 --> 0:19:55.156 jewelry and all this stuff, you know. Where I was like, 0:19:55.356 --> 0:19:57.956 I was looking at my school teachers like this is 0:19:57.996 --> 0:20:00.396 boring right here. You know. I'd go with my dad's 0:20:00.396 --> 0:20:03.556 guys and they're all dressed shark and they're super nice 0:20:03.596 --> 0:20:06.836 and smoking cigarettes, doing shit, you know. So it was 0:20:07.196 --> 0:20:10.316 a cool existence. It was like the jazz area. Jazz 0:20:10.356 --> 0:20:12.996 area was still there. My dad was still making jazz 0:20:13.356 --> 0:20:15.636 records with singers at the time, so I got to 0:20:15.636 --> 0:20:18.196 see that crossover when I was a kid. 0:20:18.836 --> 0:20:20.636 We have to pause for a quick break, and then 0:20:20.676 --> 0:20:24.156 we'll come back with more of my conversation with David Page. 0:20:28.516 --> 0:20:31.356 We're back with more from David Page. You told me 0:20:31.396 --> 0:20:32.996 when you were before I started recording, that you were 0:20:33.076 --> 0:20:34.996 fourteen when when you met Quincy Jones for. 0:20:34.996 --> 0:20:36.916 The first song was fourteen. When I met Quincy, my 0:20:36.996 --> 0:20:41.356 dad was working on a one to Quincy's solo's album, 0:20:41.596 --> 0:20:44.156 and I forget the name of the album, but the 0:20:44.276 --> 0:20:46.796 song was called The Anderson Files and it was a 0:20:46.996 --> 0:20:49.036 Sean Conry movie that had come out. Quincy had done 0:20:49.036 --> 0:20:51.396 the music for well. Quincy used to throw my dad 0:20:51.556 --> 0:20:54.916 have my dad ghost for him ghost arrange, and my 0:20:54.996 --> 0:20:56.756 dad did a couple of charts for him, and I 0:20:56.756 --> 0:20:59.676 got to help my dad with those charts, sing a 0:20:59.716 --> 0:21:02.116 couple of lines to him. You know, and so I 0:21:02.156 --> 0:21:04.436 went to Quincy's house and I think it was Benning 0:21:04.516 --> 0:21:07.316 at Canyon at the time. I think you lived there 0:21:07.316 --> 0:21:11.436 at bel Air and anyway met him, and you know, 0:21:11.596 --> 0:21:13.516 I've I ended up working for him later on the 0:21:13.556 --> 0:21:17.636 Thriller album and James Ingram and Patty Austin stuff like that. 0:21:18.196 --> 0:21:21.716 So it was he's been we've been family members. Quincy 0:21:21.876 --> 0:21:23.756 with us first since I was a kid, you know. 0:21:23.876 --> 0:21:26.876 So crazy. So you're a kid and you're immersed in 0:21:26.916 --> 0:21:30.716 this world of jazz through your father, through just your 0:21:30.756 --> 0:21:33.316 interest too, and you're learning and oscopias and z heroes, 0:21:33.356 --> 0:21:37.036 you're picking up classical music, trying to get ready, and 0:21:37.036 --> 0:21:40.876 then the seventies hit and you started doing some incredible 0:21:41.276 --> 0:21:42.676 sessions like really young. 0:21:42.916 --> 0:21:45.236 Yeah. The first hit record I did was Seals and 0:21:45.316 --> 0:21:49.076 Croft's Diamond Girl. Okay, that was a very that was 0:21:49.116 --> 0:21:50.956 one of the first sessions. But that was the first 0:21:51.036 --> 0:21:53.476 hit record I had. And once I had that, the 0:21:53.636 --> 0:21:56.756 word got around and I started getting calls for sessions. 0:21:56.956 --> 0:21:59.036 I heard a story about you being at USC that 0:21:59.156 --> 0:21:59.396 was me. 0:21:59.596 --> 0:22:01.356 That was that was during that time, and you got 0:22:01.356 --> 0:22:05.316 a call from Jackson Brown, Jackson Brown, and it was 0:22:05.356 --> 0:22:07.916 so funny because it was like USC at the time. 0:22:08.436 --> 0:22:10.036 In the dorm I was in, which is an all 0:22:10.116 --> 0:22:13.276 boy dorm, it was like animal house, you know what 0:22:13.356 --> 0:22:16.596 I mean. I mean there were guys showing movies, throwing 0:22:16.636 --> 0:22:19.396 parties and shit, and and there was only fifth phone 0:22:19.396 --> 0:22:21.836 at the time. No one had cell phones. It was 0:22:21.836 --> 0:22:24.276 a payphone in the hallway. And the guy knocks on 0:22:24.356 --> 0:22:26.636 my door and I'm in the room doing something I 0:22:26.676 --> 0:22:29.956 forget and he says, there's a guy named Jackson Brown 0:22:29.956 --> 0:22:32.236 on the phone for you. Don't hang up on it. 0:22:32.396 --> 0:22:34.076 When I got in the hallway and he goes like, 0:22:34.116 --> 0:22:36.836 where the hell are you at. It sounds, you know, 0:22:36.876 --> 0:22:38.916 because people are screaming and doing all kinds of shit, 0:22:39.196 --> 0:22:40.556 And he says, we want you to come down and 0:22:40.596 --> 0:22:44.476 play on his for every Man record down at Sunset 0:22:44.636 --> 0:22:47.796 and I played on a song called these Days where 0:22:47.876 --> 0:22:48.636 Jackson there's. 0:22:48.516 --> 0:22:51.276 Incredible signature songs that he wrote when he was a kid. 0:22:51.316 --> 0:22:54.476 And yeah, Nico did, and yeah that John Hayney was 0:22:54.516 --> 0:22:58.116 there at Sunset Sound, you know, wow. And it was 0:22:58.156 --> 0:22:59.076 cool when you. 0:22:59.036 --> 0:23:02.156 Turn up when you're coming from then, you know, coming 0:23:02.156 --> 0:23:04.636 on and you're driving them down to the studio. 0:23:05.036 --> 0:23:07.316 No switch. I was like at my jacket, my jeans 0:23:07.356 --> 0:23:09.236 and on it. It's like where I used to just 0:23:09.236 --> 0:23:10.836 stay in my clothes, you know what I mean? 0:23:10.916 --> 0:23:12.916 How often would you walk into a session like that 0:23:13.076 --> 0:23:15.556 and have to play on something you wannt too? And 0:23:15.636 --> 0:23:16.956 two quite a bit. 0:23:18.116 --> 0:23:21.196 I started weeding out those sessions though whenever I wasn't 0:23:21.196 --> 0:23:23.796 a great reader. I'm not a great reader. There's guys 0:23:23.796 --> 0:23:26.396 that sight read and that's their job what they do. 0:23:26.476 --> 0:23:28.796 A guy I learned from Mike Lange, who was one 0:23:28.836 --> 0:23:31.996 of the best. He did all Jerry Goldsmith stuff. So 0:23:32.356 --> 0:23:34.396 I would just started to go to how much reading 0:23:34.516 --> 0:23:36.476 is involved? I'd have to ask because my dad told 0:23:36.476 --> 0:23:37.916 me to do that, because he would have to do 0:23:37.956 --> 0:23:40.436 the same thing. John Williams was the guy you'd call 0:23:40.996 --> 0:23:43.716 if you want sight read stuff. And my dad would 0:23:43.756 --> 0:23:46.796 just play new sessions with jazz guys where the reading 0:23:46.876 --> 0:23:47.996 wasn't too terribly hard, you. 0:23:48.036 --> 0:23:48.476 Know, right. 0:23:48.836 --> 0:23:50.996 So I got a reputation for playing and being a 0:23:51.076 --> 0:23:52.956 rock and roll player and an R and B player. 0:23:53.076 --> 0:23:56.436 I started working at Motown when I was eighteen, with 0:23:56.996 --> 0:24:00.196 Motown out in the West coast called mo West, and 0:24:00.516 --> 0:24:03.476 so we did all these orchestral dates with rhythm section 0:24:03.636 --> 0:24:07.876 two drummers and everything. It was live music doing stuff. 0:24:07.876 --> 0:24:10.796 We did some stuff for Thelmy Houston and Diana Ross 0:24:11.156 --> 0:24:12.396 and some of the Jacksons. 0:24:12.396 --> 0:24:15.276 You know, gosh man, I mean, obviously you've got the 0:24:15.316 --> 0:24:17.796 talent and everything, but what luck to was it feels 0:24:17.796 --> 0:24:19.796 like the seventies really, like to your point of now 0:24:19.796 --> 0:24:22.396 there's Mo West, It's like the business really seemed to 0:24:22.396 --> 0:24:23.036 be coming out. 0:24:23.276 --> 0:24:26.396 It really did. I mean it was thriving the session 0:24:26.476 --> 0:24:29.796 industry and songwriters and doing all this kind of stuff. 0:24:29.796 --> 0:24:33.236 I hadn't hit as a songwriter yet, but that led 0:24:33.316 --> 0:24:37.476 up to Jeff introduced me to bos Skaggs, who because 0:24:37.556 --> 0:24:40.756 Jeff and I Boss had been producing a guitarist that 0:24:40.916 --> 0:24:45.076 was with the Allman Brothers named Lesdudeck and they needed 0:24:45.076 --> 0:24:47.956 an organ player. So I played Hammond pretty good and 0:24:49.276 --> 0:24:51.876 we went out and we did that album with Boss producing, 0:24:51.956 --> 0:24:54.196 and Boss liked how he played, so he asked me 0:24:54.276 --> 0:24:57.036 if I wanted to maybe co write an album. He 0:24:57.116 --> 0:24:59.876 was looking for co writer. He'd never co written with anybody, 0:25:00.036 --> 0:25:02.636 and so I said hell yeah, and we sat down. 0:25:02.716 --> 0:25:06.036 I think it was on this piano up at Santa Barbara. 0:25:06.076 --> 0:25:07.916 My dad had a ranch up there. We stayed there 0:25:07.956 --> 0:25:10.396 for two weeks. I wrote, like most of the stuff 0:25:10.396 --> 0:25:14.156 on Silk Degrees album on piano, you know, and that 0:25:14.276 --> 0:25:16.716 album just took off. That album was like a Pinnacle 0:25:17.236 --> 0:25:22.116 you know, Watershed album low down. I mean yeah, Lito, Lito, 0:25:22.676 --> 0:25:24.876 you know, unbelievable. 0:25:24.876 --> 0:25:27.076 Man. How were the Steely Dan sessions? 0:25:27.316 --> 0:25:30.996 Steely Dance says were fun? Okay? Uh, Donal and Walter 0:25:31.236 --> 0:25:35.836 characters and Jeff idolized them. Jeff was in Steely Dan 0:25:35.916 --> 0:25:38.396 for a while, you know, he was a drummer, so 0:25:38.556 --> 0:25:40.636 they heard about us. They wanted to start using session 0:25:40.636 --> 0:25:44.836 players instead of their band. So, uh, somehow we got 0:25:44.836 --> 0:25:49.036 a call. Jeff knew their guitar player, Danny Diaz, and 0:25:49.076 --> 0:25:51.556 they called Jeff and they were looking for a piano 0:25:51.956 --> 0:25:55.156 keyboard player. They could play other keyboards. So they called 0:25:55.196 --> 0:25:57.156 me and I was on clavinet. It was on the 0:25:57.156 --> 0:25:59.596 Pretzel Logic album. It was a song called night by 0:25:59.676 --> 0:26:02.196 Night that I played on and I was playing. All 0:26:02.196 --> 0:26:03.916 I had to do was keep time on the clavnet 0:26:04.076 --> 0:26:06.156 because I was Billy pressed and out of Space had 0:26:06.156 --> 0:26:08.396 come out and I was all over the clavinet. That 0:26:08.516 --> 0:26:10.316 was my act. You know, give me a wa wall 0:26:10.356 --> 0:26:13.036 pedal and clavinet and I'll kill it, you know what 0:26:13.116 --> 0:26:16.076 I mean. So I did that. Then they did an 0:26:16.156 --> 0:26:18.876 album after that was Katie Lied with Chef played on 0:26:18.916 --> 0:26:21.796 the Whole Thing. I played on Black Friday. That was 0:26:21.836 --> 0:26:24.876 me and Michael Halbardy and playing keyboards, and I played 0:26:24.916 --> 0:26:27.716 on Doctor Wu on that album on Katie Lin. But 0:26:27.756 --> 0:26:31.516 they were fun because Donald was so neurotic and anxious. 0:26:31.676 --> 0:26:34.596 He'd be pacing back and forth singing the guide vocal, 0:26:34.876 --> 0:26:37.916 but the lyrics were so interesting. We were just like, man, 0:26:38.076 --> 0:26:40.436 dig it's deep. You know. You had to concentrate, like, 0:26:40.556 --> 0:26:43.356 don't start listening to them singing, because you'll fuck up, 0:26:43.396 --> 0:26:43.996 you know what I mean. 0:26:44.316 --> 0:26:48.396 Yeah, And now in hindsight, people kind of regard Steely 0:26:48.516 --> 0:26:50.596 Dan and those sessions and the work that was done 0:26:50.596 --> 0:26:53.476 as like kind of like that's almost biblical, I can't 0:26:53.516 --> 0:26:53.956 touch it. 0:26:54.036 --> 0:26:54.476 That is. 0:26:54.596 --> 0:26:56.356 Did they have that reputation at the time when you. 0:26:56.316 --> 0:26:58.796 Were They didn't. They didn't. They were kind of on 0:26:58.876 --> 0:27:01.716 the dark side and low key, and people didn't know 0:27:01.756 --> 0:27:02.236 about him. 0:27:02.316 --> 0:27:02.596 People. 0:27:02.596 --> 0:27:04.756 Steely Dan wasn't a big no nip they had Ricky 0:27:04.796 --> 0:27:07.636 Don't Lose That number was the one song that they did, 0:27:07.636 --> 0:27:10.316 but it was other than that. They were kind of eclectic, 0:27:10.676 --> 0:27:12.796 you know what I mean, And they were doing different 0:27:12.876 --> 0:27:15.756 kinds of stuff, jazzy kind of stuff back then, and 0:27:15.836 --> 0:27:18.916 people they weren't mainstream, you know, the record companies didn't 0:27:18.956 --> 0:27:21.356 know what to do with them at all until Irving 0:27:21.436 --> 0:27:24.036 Asoff said I know what to do with him, and 0:27:24.036 --> 0:27:26.796 he signed him, got Warner Brothers to sign him, you 0:27:26.796 --> 0:27:29.836 know what I mean, out of away from ABC Dunhill, you. 0:27:29.796 --> 0:27:35.036 Know, man, Yeah, when did your interest in songwriting start. 0:27:34.836 --> 0:27:37.956 To I've always been in. I started in high school 0:27:37.956 --> 0:27:40.116 when Elton John first came out with his first record. 0:27:40.276 --> 0:27:42.396 I just wanted to be Elton John. I mean that 0:27:42.516 --> 0:27:47.396 was my hero, had glasses on, short hair and performed 0:27:47.556 --> 0:27:50.196 rock and roll at the piano and stuff. So I 0:27:50.316 --> 0:27:53.556 just started writing songs, copying his kind of songs. And 0:27:53.636 --> 0:27:56.316 also I had known my dad did a lot of 0:27:56.316 --> 0:28:00.116 work with Jimmy Webb. I learned that's the guy started copying, 0:28:00.316 --> 0:28:03.916 I mean, first emulating his trying to try and to 0:28:03.956 --> 0:28:05.236 emulate him before. 0:28:04.996 --> 0:28:06.716 He get intoubt in it's Jimmy Webb. 0:28:06.676 --> 0:28:09.876 Yeah, Jimmy Webb. And I was doing to play like 0:28:09.916 --> 0:28:13.396 and play like him and right like him before I 0:28:13.436 --> 0:28:17.836 made the Elton John connection. It was it was my apprenticeship, 0:28:17.916 --> 0:28:18.516 you know what I mean. 0:28:18.556 --> 0:28:20.316 That's what I was like going to school and you 0:28:20.356 --> 0:28:22.916 were like doing. 0:28:22.076 --> 0:28:25.596 I was doing. Here's the trip, Okay, I was. Me 0:28:25.716 --> 0:28:28.356 and Jeff and David Hungate were Sunny and SHARE's rhythm 0:28:28.356 --> 0:28:31.156 section on the road. When I got out of high school. 0:28:31.156 --> 0:28:34.356 The first gig I had was touring with them, okay 0:28:35.316 --> 0:28:37.396 on the road and they were They had the Sunny 0:28:37.396 --> 0:28:38.996 and Share Show. At the time. They were the biggest 0:28:39.036 --> 0:28:41.676 thing in the United States. They were working, getting like 0:28:41.676 --> 0:28:44.636 one hundred grand a night. So me and Jeff I joined. 0:28:44.676 --> 0:28:47.116 Jeff had already been with him for six months. He 0:28:47.196 --> 0:28:52.756 left high school early, and so my dad said, Okay, 0:28:52.796 --> 0:28:54.956 he's going to college next year. Now, how are we 0:28:54.956 --> 0:28:57.196 going to deal with that? And the and the stunning 0:28:57.196 --> 0:28:59.556 and Share people said, we will fly him in to 0:28:59.636 --> 0:29:02.316 go to his classes when we're not playing and shit 0:29:02.436 --> 0:29:05.156 like that, and so they flew me in. I was 0:29:05.196 --> 0:29:07.076 going to USC a couple of days a week. I 0:29:07.116 --> 0:29:08.916 was visiting a bunch of classes, but I go to 0:29:08.956 --> 0:29:11.796 you US see, I would do an Ironside's date and 0:29:11.836 --> 0:29:13.876 I would fly back to Las Vegas to conduct for 0:29:13.916 --> 0:29:14.716 Sonny and Share. 0:29:14.916 --> 0:29:17.476 Wow, that was a trip. I imagine you probably didn't 0:29:17.516 --> 0:29:18.756 care about going to us, was it? 0:29:19.636 --> 0:29:21.116 I just had to do it. I had to do it, 0:29:21.156 --> 0:29:22.716 fill out my grades and pass. 0:29:23.036 --> 0:29:25.396 What was it like? Angham was Sonny and Share at 0:29:25.436 --> 0:29:25.676 that time? 0:29:25.716 --> 0:29:28.996 I mean he was kind of her fall guy, you 0:29:29.036 --> 0:29:30.876 know what I mean. She would make jokes and he 0:29:30.956 --> 0:29:33.716 was the little short Italian guy. But they were selling 0:29:33.756 --> 0:29:38.036 out these huge arenas. We met all these promoters, all 0:29:38.076 --> 0:29:42.076 the big Elton John promoters, all the big agents and 0:29:42.116 --> 0:29:43.916 everything like that. Because they were big time. They had 0:29:43.956 --> 0:29:46.556 their own jet. We were traveling on huge Get this 0:29:46.836 --> 0:29:51.796 chu Hefner's Playboy jet was the jet that we traveled with, 0:29:51.996 --> 0:29:55.356 like Bunny Stewardess's okay, And I was just out of 0:29:55.396 --> 0:29:57.316 high school. We were all just out of high school, 0:29:57.436 --> 0:30:00.356 and we were just like you gotta be frigging like 0:30:00.436 --> 0:30:02.876 it's off the scale. We're in shock. We were kind 0:30:02.876 --> 0:30:05.276 of in shock, like what do we do? Of course, Jeff, 0:30:05.476 --> 0:30:08.836 Jeff is an old hand. Jeff was like drummers man. 0:30:09.116 --> 0:30:12.076 I was putting the moves on everybody, you. 0:30:12.116 --> 0:30:18.036 Know what I mean, A newbie, I was new meat man. 0:30:18.196 --> 0:30:19.556 I was just like yes, Bam. 0:30:19.916 --> 0:30:22.156 You know, when did you first meet the Pacaro brothers? 0:30:22.156 --> 0:30:24.836 I mean, because Jeff, when I was when I was 0:30:25.836 --> 0:30:29.556 fourteen and a half fifteen, you know, and I met 0:30:29.596 --> 0:30:32.356 a Mike and Steve was playing always playing different instruments. 0:30:32.396 --> 0:30:34.676 He was playing a French shorn, he played a cello, 0:30:35.356 --> 0:30:38.756 and Mike was playing started to play. Mike played some drums, 0:30:38.996 --> 0:30:41.516 and then Mike started playing study bass. And Mike was 0:30:41.556 --> 0:30:43.356 a great bass player. He was our high school bass 0:30:43.396 --> 0:30:45.396 player and he was great. 0:30:45.876 --> 0:30:47.476 When did you meet Steve Luke? At there? 0:30:48.196 --> 0:30:51.756 Andy Leads, Steve's little younger brother, was hanging out with 0:30:51.796 --> 0:30:56.316 Steve Ricaro and Steve Lucather and Mike Landau. They were 0:30:56.316 --> 0:30:59.476 all friends. So I was starting my band and I 0:30:59.516 --> 0:31:02.036 was looking at like Dean Parks and Louis Shelton and 0:31:02.556 --> 0:31:05.636 Larry Carlton, and Andy says, you need to check out 0:31:05.676 --> 0:31:09.316 these guitar players that are with Steve Riccaro's band. And 0:31:09.356 --> 0:31:11.596 so I went to Taft High School, which is right 0:31:11.676 --> 0:31:14.676 down there with Winetka in Ventura, and I walked in 0:31:14.836 --> 0:31:18.516 and I heard this somebody playing like Jimmy Hendricks. I 0:31:19.276 --> 0:31:21.116 thought the band was on a break and they put 0:31:21.156 --> 0:31:23.836 a record on and they were playing Hendricks And I 0:31:23.876 --> 0:31:27.436 walked in there and Lucather was on stage and Landaut. 0:31:27.596 --> 0:31:29.916 Landau was real short. He was a real short guy. 0:31:30.436 --> 0:31:35.116 And Lucather had on a monkey mask, okay, a rubber mask, 0:31:35.796 --> 0:31:38.636 and I couldn't see I couldn't see him that well 0:31:38.676 --> 0:31:40.756 because it was kind of smoky, and I was in 0:31:40.836 --> 0:31:42.796 the back of the thing. But I'm I'm looking at 0:31:42.796 --> 0:31:45.436 because guys look like he's been imprisoned or something like that. 0:31:45.756 --> 0:31:48.156 And I get closer and I realized he's he was 0:31:48.156 --> 0:31:51.196 doing like leaping in the air like Pete Townsend, sliding 0:31:51.236 --> 0:31:55.276 on his knees, playing Johnny B. Good, singing it with 0:31:55.396 --> 0:31:57.596 a monkey with a with a monkey mask. Gone, that 0:31:57.676 --> 0:31:59.796 was just Lucather, crazy guy, you know what I mean. 0:32:00.396 --> 0:32:03.836 Just he was silly, silly crazy, Okay, and he still 0:32:03.916 --> 0:32:07.276 is silly crazy. But that's how I met him. And 0:32:07.396 --> 0:32:09.876 I was looking at John Mike Landau, and I thought 0:32:10.396 --> 0:32:14.196 Landau had a stratocaster, and I like stratocasters, so I said, 0:32:14.396 --> 0:32:17.236 I think maybe the little guy that plays like Hendrick's 0:32:17.276 --> 0:32:19.956 And Lucather says, no, man that he says, the other 0:32:19.996 --> 0:32:22.476 guy's a star. We need to star in our band, 0:32:22.676 --> 0:32:25.156 and Jeff of course said, that's our guy right there. 0:32:25.676 --> 0:32:27.516 So Jeff picked him and I said, I don't have 0:32:27.556 --> 0:32:29.156 a problem with that, but he was new and he 0:32:29.236 --> 0:32:31.876 was just shredding the whole time. I said, yeah, but 0:32:32.076 --> 0:32:35.476 he's got to play like on our records. And Luca says, 0:32:35.516 --> 0:32:37.756 he'll learn. We'll put him next to Carlton and Louis Sheldon. 0:32:37.876 --> 0:32:42.076 He'll he'll learn fast. And he did very quick study, 0:32:42.316 --> 0:32:45.076 you know. And then you hear him play on Georgie 0:32:45.076 --> 0:32:46.796 Porgy and you hear him play on her first album. 0:32:47.036 --> 0:32:49.956 You know, he was already seasoned, you know what I 0:32:49.996 --> 0:32:51.556 mean by seventy eight, you know. 0:32:51.676 --> 0:32:54.476 In a way like real fortuitous. You guys got him 0:32:54.516 --> 0:32:56.476 because he did. It's so funny, like by the time 0:32:56.516 --> 0:32:59.556 you guys are really starting to take off, it's like, 0:33:00.236 --> 0:33:02.716 you know, the Van Halen's of the world are out there, 0:33:02.276 --> 0:33:05.236 right and you know this really kind of heavy guitar 0:33:05.356 --> 0:33:08.996 sound is popular. Yeah, and you guys have Steve to 0:33:09.276 --> 0:33:09.956 kind of bringing. 0:33:09.756 --> 0:33:13.076 Out to Steve was friends with all the heavy metal players. 0:33:13.236 --> 0:33:16.076 It was him and Eddie were best friends, okay immediately, 0:33:16.316 --> 0:33:18.756 and we're to when any passed, you know, wow, So 0:33:18.876 --> 0:33:21.396 Eddie van Haill was always hanging out Luca her Luca 0:33:21.436 --> 0:33:23.596 that had all the hammering ship that Eddie was doing 0:33:23.996 --> 0:33:27.236 down and uh and it was uh, it was fun 0:33:27.276 --> 0:33:30.796 time because you had to have a gun slinger guitar player. 0:33:30.876 --> 0:33:33.636 We had the guy who was Lucather. You know, he 0:33:33.796 --> 0:33:36.596 was just shredding. You would rip all these guys. He 0:33:36.636 --> 0:33:40.156 had more chops than any guitar player in town. I mean, 0:33:40.236 --> 0:33:44.756 Larry Carlton, all these guys. Lucather was like Maha Vishnu 0:33:44.876 --> 0:33:48.436 John John kind of chops. That's what these guys had. 0:33:48.516 --> 0:33:51.876 Chops in high school. Wow, you know, unbelievable. 0:33:51.916 --> 0:33:53.996 It's amazing all the talent that you guys had. You 0:33:54.036 --> 0:33:56.836 guys to this day are able to still remain friends. 0:33:58.036 --> 0:34:01.076 But but I mean, because there's a world where you 0:34:01.436 --> 0:34:04.676 or or Steve or Lucather could have just been like, 0:34:05.156 --> 0:34:06.516 you know, I want to do my thing. 0:34:06.716 --> 0:34:09.076 You know really well, we weren't. No one everybody was. 0:34:09.316 --> 0:34:11.476 The bands were the thing at the time. They say, 0:34:11.516 --> 0:34:14.396 there's a saying now, back in the day when I 0:34:14.476 --> 0:34:18.596 was growing up, everybody was in bands. Now they're singers. Now, 0:34:18.596 --> 0:34:21.676 it's all about singing. And I think it's great that 0:34:21.756 --> 0:34:24.316 everybody's singing now. I wish I wish I'd studied singing. 0:34:24.316 --> 0:34:26.276 My dad didn't want me to be a singer because 0:34:26.556 --> 0:34:28.836 he thought I would end up in a piano lounge 0:34:29.116 --> 0:34:31.956 being a singer, piano player. Entertainer and that was the 0:34:31.996 --> 0:34:33.756 worst word at the time. My dad said, you don't 0:34:33.756 --> 0:34:36.916 want to become an entertainer. You want to be a musician, really, 0:34:37.076 --> 0:34:39.956 And so I missed out on singing lessons and stuff, 0:34:39.996 --> 0:34:42.756 but which I ended up taking later on, and stuff 0:34:42.796 --> 0:34:43.836 like what I was gonna. 0:34:43.596 --> 0:34:45.436 Ask about the band, like did you guys think of yourselves? 0:34:45.476 --> 0:34:47.836 Obviously you guys are like incredible musicians, but they did 0:34:47.876 --> 0:34:49.516 any of you guys think of yourselves as singer? 0:34:49.996 --> 0:34:52.396 Luca there could sing a little bit. He could sing 0:34:52.396 --> 0:34:55.556 like Georgie Porgy saying I'll be over you won't hold 0:34:55.596 --> 0:34:58.716 you back. But and I could sing barely to just 0:34:58.756 --> 0:34:59.996 get some of my songs out. 0:35:00.316 --> 0:35:03.356 But we found this that you guys would like trade 0:35:03.356 --> 0:35:05.996 off singing, like you know, be Steve if you look 0:35:05.996 --> 0:35:08.236 at their into you andto. 0:35:08.156 --> 0:35:10.356 Well, that was the whole idea I used as a 0:35:10.356 --> 0:35:13.276 model the Beatles. I like the Beatles because you never 0:35:13.396 --> 0:35:16.236 got tired. It wasn't one guy singing a solo outcrid. 0:35:16.356 --> 0:35:19.236 I don't care who the artist is. A whole album 0:35:19.276 --> 0:35:21.836 of them, I get a little bored. I like Fleetwood 0:35:21.876 --> 0:35:25.436 Mac and I like the Beatles because they had various 0:35:25.676 --> 0:35:28.596 diversity and their singing, you know, and so that's what 0:35:28.636 --> 0:35:30.636 I wanted to do with our band. We did it 0:35:30.636 --> 0:35:34.076 on the first album. Those guys never sung. I never sung, 0:35:34.236 --> 0:35:37.316 I mean really on an album before. And we all 0:35:37.356 --> 0:35:38.316 sang on the first album. 0:35:38.356 --> 0:35:40.036 And then you guys have a sing on Bobby Kimball. 0:35:40.836 --> 0:35:43.436 We had to get a singer because they were kept going, well, 0:35:43.476 --> 0:35:46.796 who's your singer? They really before they signed the paper, 0:35:47.076 --> 0:35:49.236 they want to know do you have a singer? And 0:35:49.316 --> 0:35:52.516 a band that I had been co produced called Essus 0:35:52.596 --> 0:35:55.396 Fools had a singer named Bobby Kimball, and they broke up, 0:35:55.676 --> 0:35:58.556 and I said, let's try this guy out. And he 0:35:58.636 --> 0:36:01.476 came in and I played hole the line and he 0:36:01.596 --> 0:36:04.276 just grabbed the lyrics and we started ripping to hold 0:36:04.276 --> 0:36:06.316 the line and it sounded the first time we played 0:36:06.316 --> 0:36:09.956 it, it sounded like the record with him singing and us playing. 0:36:10.036 --> 0:36:12.316 So everybody's looking around the room, We're looking at each 0:36:12.316 --> 0:36:16.156 other like we're a band. We're a band. We knew 0:36:16.156 --> 0:36:17.036 we were a band. You know. 0:36:17.996 --> 0:36:19.996 We have to take another quick break and then we'll 0:36:20.036 --> 0:36:23.316 be back with more from my conversation with David Page. 0:36:27.556 --> 0:36:31.516 Here's the rest of my conversation with David Page. Let's 0:36:31.716 --> 0:36:35.316 jump ahead to you reconnect with Quincy to do thriller. 0:36:35.556 --> 0:36:37.756 Do you know was it Michael was a Quincy? Was 0:36:37.756 --> 0:36:40.036 it the boat? How did you guys end up getting. 0:36:40.516 --> 0:36:44.156 Up getting in? Because I had Steve ricarl had been 0:36:44.236 --> 0:36:49.236 doing programming synthesizers for David Foster and Greg Phillip Gains 0:36:49.636 --> 0:36:52.756 at all Quincy's people. I wasn't in that club yet. 0:36:53.076 --> 0:36:55.276 So Steve, what are you doing? He goes, I'm doing 0:36:55.276 --> 0:36:57.716 a Quincy Jones day. I said, you know what, I 0:36:57.756 --> 0:36:59.676 want to go do a Quincy Jones date. So I'm 0:36:59.716 --> 0:37:02.316 gonna go. I'm gonna be your assistant, and I want 0:37:02.316 --> 0:37:04.836 to carry a piece of gear in to get in 0:37:04.836 --> 0:37:08.396 to the the door. So I got the party. So 0:37:08.436 --> 0:37:10.116 I got in the door. I think they were doing 0:37:10.196 --> 0:37:12.156 Donna Summers. I think it was State of. 0:37:12.156 --> 0:37:13.196 The Native Independence. 0:37:13.356 --> 0:37:16.396 That was Steve. Steve Riccaro did that, and I was 0:37:16.556 --> 0:37:19.116 kind of playing for him because he would be the 0:37:19.156 --> 0:37:22.316 major programmer. But I could play really pretty well. So 0:37:22.916 --> 0:37:25.716 set up the stuff, set up the sounds, and sweteen 0:37:25.756 --> 0:37:29.116 would say, Steve, play something, and Steve would say, well, 0:37:29.156 --> 0:37:32.516 that's David's here to Dave play something. And I started playing, 0:37:32.876 --> 0:37:34.756 and Quincy would walk in the room and go, wow, 0:37:34.796 --> 0:37:37.636 that's nice. What are you doing? Can you stay? Can 0:37:37.676 --> 0:37:40.636 you hang out a little bit? And I'm sure. And 0:37:40.796 --> 0:37:43.916 ever since then I do the Donna summers James Ingram 0:37:44.516 --> 0:37:46.476 and uh then I got called him thriller, you know 0:37:46.556 --> 0:37:48.756 what I mean? Because I was part of Quincy's club. 0:37:48.676 --> 0:37:51.356 And so State of Quincy later said, and I mean, 0:37:51.356 --> 0:37:53.156 you know, you can demeuror if you want. But Quincy 0:37:53.196 --> 0:37:56.836 later said that the Billy Jean bassline was a rip 0:37:57.236 --> 0:38:00.636 of that State of Independence programming, that thing that you 0:38:00.676 --> 0:38:01.436 and really. 0:38:01.276 --> 0:38:03.116 I don't know you said that, Yeah, could have been. 0:38:03.156 --> 0:38:07.156 That could have been you know, boom boom boom boom 0:38:07.196 --> 0:38:07.876 boom boom boom. 0:38:07.916 --> 0:38:08.436 That was that. 0:38:08.556 --> 0:38:10.356 Now that I think about it, it is. I'm gonna tell 0:38:10.356 --> 0:38:11.116 Steve that today. 0:38:11.236 --> 0:38:12.556 Yeah, because let me know what he says. 0:38:12.556 --> 0:38:17.516 Because we brought all of our synthesizers down there. I mean, 0:38:17.756 --> 0:38:20.556 there was a room full of synthesizers, and Steve was 0:38:20.596 --> 0:38:23.276 doing that live. It was it had the drum machine, 0:38:23.636 --> 0:38:27.516 it had all the sense pumping and basically the whole 0:38:27.516 --> 0:38:31.356 record was done with Steve Riccaro doing synthesizers on his 0:38:31.636 --> 0:38:32.436 micro composer. 0:38:32.556 --> 0:38:35.516 So you guys basically play on human nature. You guys 0:38:35.516 --> 0:38:37.916 do a number of you plan a number of different 0:38:37.916 --> 0:38:40.236 things on thriller, but human Nature really is like it's like, 0:38:40.316 --> 0:38:43.476 that's yeah, Toto. Essentially, are you mad at a Steve 0:38:43.796 --> 0:38:45.636 when he takes a song like human Nation? 0:38:47.076 --> 0:38:50.876 Hell? No, no, because the total would have never done 0:38:50.916 --> 0:38:51.876 that totally. 0:38:51.996 --> 0:38:52.676 No, I don't. 0:38:52.956 --> 0:38:55.596 They may have, but Steve, we were we were off 0:38:55.636 --> 0:38:58.876 the road and Quincy was looking for songs, and so 0:38:58.956 --> 0:39:00.996 I sent I don't know what I sent in, but 0:39:01.116 --> 0:39:04.436 I sent in a cassette and had on the back 0:39:04.476 --> 0:39:07.636 of my cassette spend They had the super scope tape 0:39:07.676 --> 0:39:09.916 machines that when they'd get to the end, it would 0:39:09.956 --> 0:39:13.036 start playing the other side of the cassette automatically, and 0:39:13.076 --> 0:39:15.716 so it jumped to the other side and played Steve 0:39:15.716 --> 0:39:18.996 Bricaro's demo for him, and he was like, why why 0:39:19.676 --> 0:39:22.596 tell him that is human nature? And Quincy dug it 0:39:22.676 --> 0:39:24.796 and she played it for Michael and they were just 0:39:24.876 --> 0:39:27.916 like they cut it. You know, wow, that was like 0:39:27.956 --> 0:39:29.756 the left last song that went on the record. 0:39:29.796 --> 0:39:31.236 You don't how did you because I want to talk 0:39:31.236 --> 0:39:34.116 about this. I'm curious how you and Steve found how 0:39:34.156 --> 0:39:37.196 to coexist in terms of as keyboard players send to play. 0:39:37.276 --> 0:39:40.316 You would come up with something and say, Dave, I 0:39:40.396 --> 0:39:42.796 need your I need some magic on this. I need 0:39:42.796 --> 0:39:44.876 you to I need an intro, like you said on 0:39:44.956 --> 0:39:47.956 Human Nature. I've got the chords, but I need an intro. 0:39:48.596 --> 0:39:55.276 So I think those are the chords you played me 0:39:55.316 --> 0:40:01.036 for the intro, and I from Jimmy Seals. I had 0:40:01.036 --> 0:40:05.916 been used to doing fingerpicking guitar parts and in translating 0:40:05.996 --> 0:40:10.676 of the piano, so I could do you know, I 0:40:10.716 --> 0:40:12.756 would cross hands and do so. I did a little 0:40:12.836 --> 0:40:15.676 Jimmy Seals kind of thing for Human Nature and that went. 0:40:28.676 --> 0:40:30.756 And that's the answer to Human Nature that I came 0:40:30.876 --> 0:40:31.156 up with. 0:40:32.316 --> 0:40:35.036 That is one of the coolest. That is one of 0:40:35.076 --> 0:40:36.156 the coolest. 0:40:35.756 --> 0:40:38.716 And song and every time that comes up, it goes 0:40:38.716 --> 0:40:39.396 into that part. 0:40:39.476 --> 0:40:42.316 You know what I mean, It's so beautiful. What was 0:40:42.356 --> 0:40:44.876 it like being in the studio with Michael if Michael. 0:40:44.916 --> 0:40:49.076 Michael was great in the studio. He was a perfectionist 0:40:49.996 --> 0:40:52.876 and he just believed in you painting. He came up 0:40:52.876 --> 0:40:56.316 to me, here is a typical Michael Jackson thing you'd see. 0:40:56.556 --> 0:40:59.756 I want you to think of Michael angela painting Assistine chapel. 0:41:00.196 --> 0:41:03.636 You have a total blank canvas. And if you need 0:41:03.676 --> 0:41:07.676 a choir, you need this, orchestra, you need whatever you need, 0:41:08.316 --> 0:41:11.236 just do it. Just come up and think with it. Now. 0:41:11.276 --> 0:41:14.316 This wasn't during Thriller though. This was after Thriller. Michael 0:41:14.796 --> 0:41:17.556 continued working with me, but working with Michael. I got 0:41:17.556 --> 0:41:19.836 in there one day and I was working on Billy Jean, 0:41:19.996 --> 0:41:22.996 which I did and ended up using my parts, none 0:41:23.036 --> 0:41:25.196 of my parts, but I did it with Michael, and 0:41:25.276 --> 0:41:27.836 he would listen to what you're playing, and he kind 0:41:27.836 --> 0:41:30.036 of let a couple of little mistakes go by, and 0:41:30.076 --> 0:41:32.676 I stopped him and I said, Michael, listen, I'm a 0:41:32.716 --> 0:41:35.156 perfectionist and I want to make sure that all this 0:41:35.196 --> 0:41:37.636 stuff is perfect when we put it on there. So 0:41:38.316 --> 0:41:42.116 in the interim he liked the fact that I wanted 0:41:42.156 --> 0:41:45.916 perfection on his record, and he called me in and say, 0:41:46.076 --> 0:41:47.956 I want I want you to come in and listen 0:41:47.956 --> 0:41:50.556 to my vocal that I'm doing and tell me if 0:41:50.556 --> 0:41:52.516 it's tell me if it's good. And it kind of 0:41:52.516 --> 0:41:54.476 got me in trouble with Quincy a little bit because 0:41:54.596 --> 0:41:57.436 Quincy was there and he goes, Quincy goes, Michael, is 0:41:57.436 --> 0:42:00.956 that what do you think? And he goes ask David 0:42:00.996 --> 0:42:03.876 Page what he thinks on the human nature vocal and 0:42:03.916 --> 0:42:08.436 I'm like, uhh, Quincy just gave me the look, gave 0:42:08.436 --> 0:42:10.596 me the look like oh really you know what I mean? 0:42:10.876 --> 0:42:13.196 And I was like, oh man, you know, so we 0:42:13.316 --> 0:42:16.116 got that straightened out and uh. And then Michael was 0:42:16.156 --> 0:42:18.436 great to work with anybody that worked with him. He 0:42:18.516 --> 0:42:21.796 was just like Jeff did beat Jeff. They came to 0:42:21.876 --> 0:42:24.196 Jeff and all they had was these drum cases that 0:42:24.276 --> 0:42:28.076 went do do Do Do Do? 0:42:27.796 --> 0:42:28.756 Do? Do? Do? 0:42:28.756 --> 0:42:32.636 Do Do Do do? And and they were singing the 0:42:32.676 --> 0:42:35.796 line I think in there. And then Steve and Jeff 0:42:35.836 --> 0:42:38.276 played all the instruments on Steve Luke and that played bass, 0:42:38.516 --> 0:42:41.596 played rhythm guitar, Eddie did the solo, and Jeff played 0:42:41.596 --> 0:42:42.196 the drums on it. 0:42:42.236 --> 0:42:43.676 You know, look wanted to do the solo. 0:42:43.916 --> 0:42:46.236 How did it end up that he was lucky to 0:42:46.236 --> 0:42:48.636 play on He was happy to play. Yeah, And then 0:42:48.636 --> 0:42:50.156 they said they were trying to get Ed van Halen, 0:42:50.236 --> 0:42:53.396 which was Luke's friend. Luke's like, right on, you know. 0:42:53.796 --> 0:42:55.196 D didn't want to do it at first because they 0:42:55.236 --> 0:42:59.036 have van Halen had a no session band role. You 0:42:59.076 --> 0:43:02.476 can't play in other people's records. So Eddie called him 0:43:02.476 --> 0:43:04.476 and said, this is Quincy Jones. He goes, yeah, sure, 0:43:04.516 --> 0:43:07.236 and he hung up on him. Okay, Ed, you know 0:43:07.276 --> 0:43:10.916 what I mean, And I said, no, really seriously, you know. 0:43:11.036 --> 0:43:13.676 So they he sent a tape in and they flew 0:43:13.676 --> 0:43:16.556 it in I don't know where. He just soloed and 0:43:16.596 --> 0:43:18.796 they just took a piece of it dropped it in lin. 0:43:19.436 --> 0:43:23.556 Wow. Total four. You guys spent a lot of time 0:43:23.556 --> 0:43:24.076 in the studio. 0:43:24.636 --> 0:43:26.316 Yeah, we spent a lot of time all the time. 0:43:26.636 --> 0:43:29.076 So that's another year, man, where it's like if seventy 0:43:29.116 --> 0:43:31.156 eight your first records coming out, all these big hits 0:43:31.156 --> 0:43:33.436 and you got Sheryl Lyn's record out at the same time. 0:43:33.636 --> 0:43:37.316 This is like you got total four thriller. 0:43:37.116 --> 0:43:39.876 All the all the burners are on, you know, unbelievable. 0:43:39.996 --> 0:43:43.836 Yeah, you got four records behind Youah, a bunch of hits. 0:43:43.996 --> 0:43:47.436 Yeah, I mean we're doing sessions and touring and doing 0:43:47.436 --> 0:43:49.396 our total records at the time, you know, so it 0:43:49.476 --> 0:43:51.956 was just kind of a revolving door at the recording 0:43:51.996 --> 0:43:55.276 studios Sunset Sound. We'd see guys that are working on it, Thriller, 0:43:55.276 --> 0:43:57.516 What are you doing, I'm working with Quincy today. Well 0:43:57.556 --> 0:43:58.596 we'll be there in a little bit. 0:43:58.916 --> 0:44:01.876 And you know, how did Sunset Sound become your home? 0:44:01.956 --> 0:44:02.996 Which is one of the great studios. 0:44:03.036 --> 0:44:05.956 It was one of the great studios, and you know, 0:44:06.036 --> 0:44:08.236 we could basically work everywhere. I mean, we did Thriller 0:44:08.276 --> 0:44:11.356 at Westlake, the whole thing. You know. We did Toto's 0:44:11.396 --> 0:44:15.556 rec first record at Studio fifty five, which was it 0:44:15.876 --> 0:44:19.556 ended up becoming Richard Perry's studio. But we just liked 0:44:20.356 --> 0:44:24.476 Sunset Sound as a record recording place. And that was 0:44:24.556 --> 0:44:27.996 during the Hydra record we started working at Sunset Sound 0:44:28.156 --> 0:44:31.276 again cool and we loved playing there. We loved that 0:44:31.276 --> 0:44:34.396 that was a real progressive music. We were trying to 0:44:34.396 --> 0:44:36.716 push ahead. Well, now that we had been had a 0:44:36.756 --> 0:44:39.276 hit album, we kind of wanted to play some serious 0:44:39.516 --> 0:44:41.956 concert stuff here. You don't get into the way we 0:44:41.956 --> 0:44:43.836 would sound if we went out live and I just 0:44:43.876 --> 0:44:46.836 playing pop. Georgie Porgy and god, the. 0:44:46.636 --> 0:44:48.636 First record is like, let's let's craft a record. 0:44:48.716 --> 0:44:51.676 Let's craft the record, let's find an audience. So we 0:44:51.716 --> 0:44:53.436 did a whole of a lot of different kinds of 0:44:53.436 --> 0:44:56.036 things to find out. I know that there's got to 0:44:56.076 --> 0:44:59.036 be a single in there somewhere, you know, And surely enough, 0:44:59.076 --> 0:45:00.916 the record company grabbed all of the line, you know, 0:45:01.516 --> 0:45:02.836 you know, little did I know? You know? 0:45:03.036 --> 0:45:06.556 Yeah? But then Hydro was like, let's Hydra was more more. 0:45:07.236 --> 0:45:10.036 We were listening to Genesis the time, you know what 0:45:10.076 --> 0:45:14.356 I mean, Peter Gabriel and these progressive English groups that 0:45:14.476 --> 0:45:17.996 were doing just blowing our minds, you know, So we 0:45:18.036 --> 0:45:20.756 wanted to get more progressive and more musical, you know, 0:45:20.916 --> 0:45:24.276 because we're all just making music basically for ourselves and 0:45:24.316 --> 0:45:27.836 our friend musicians, so we could get together and smoke 0:45:28.036 --> 0:45:30.316 a little bit and and listen to music, you know, 0:45:30.876 --> 0:45:33.316 and and we wanted to have something interesting to play him, 0:45:33.756 --> 0:45:35.596 you know, because everybody else was bringing in all this 0:45:35.676 --> 0:45:37.916 stuff that they're they're doing, and it was like, you know, 0:45:38.236 --> 0:45:40.036 real real musical stuff, you know. 0:45:40.356 --> 0:45:42.476 Yeah, did you guys went into Prince at all? Because 0:45:42.476 --> 0:45:44.196 I know he was hunkered down at Sunset Sound. 0:45:44.596 --> 0:45:47.316 Ran into Prince one time, and he was down there 0:45:47.356 --> 0:45:50.996 before we were down there. During we were down there, 0:45:51.876 --> 0:45:54.916 I didn't run into him. I think Jeff ran into 0:45:55.036 --> 0:45:58.716 him one time, but he was down there with James 0:45:58.756 --> 0:46:01.716 Newton Howard working on his first album. Ray Parker, who's 0:46:01.756 --> 0:46:06.076 my neighbor down the stirt, down down the hill, bad man, 0:46:06.076 --> 0:46:08.196 and he's like my best friend. We grew up together, 0:46:08.236 --> 0:46:10.796 we both He came out from Detroit when he was 0:46:10.876 --> 0:46:14.516 nineteen and I started working when I was eighteen and nineteen. 0:46:14.556 --> 0:46:17.036 So we have been friends since we've been really young. 0:46:17.636 --> 0:46:21.436 So Prince saw Ray Parkers had a studio in his house, 0:46:21.756 --> 0:46:24.396 and Prince said, I want that. So Ray built Prince's 0:46:24.436 --> 0:46:29.036 first studio. Really yeah, So Ray set Prince up and 0:46:29.076 --> 0:46:32.716 then I heard later on that Prince really liked Luca. 0:46:32.756 --> 0:46:35.716 There is a guitar player, and I just I've gained 0:46:35.716 --> 0:46:38.876 so much respect for him lately. Hearing Hill he plays 0:46:38.916 --> 0:46:42.076 guitar and the shows of acoustic work, and he's just 0:46:42.316 --> 0:46:43.756 he was a real talent. 0:46:43.876 --> 0:46:46.436 You know, man, you guys were around some of the coolest, 0:46:46.516 --> 0:46:49.756 greatest the era of music. You guys existed because the 0:46:50.276 --> 0:46:53.316 point again the left, like the what remained of the 0:46:53.436 --> 0:46:55.796 jazz great. It's like said Oscar Peterson came to your 0:46:55.836 --> 0:46:58.556 house to work on to check out synthesizers. 0:46:58.556 --> 0:47:01.676 He did because the Roland, the guy who invented a 0:47:01.716 --> 0:47:04.756 bunch of rolling stuff, was living at my house. Okay, 0:47:04.956 --> 0:47:07.636 Foster called me up and said, I got a guy 0:47:07.636 --> 0:47:10.236 from Canada and Ralph bike for Roland. Do you guys 0:47:10.276 --> 0:47:12.716 interested in this? We said, send them over and he 0:47:12.716 --> 0:47:15.436 would just build stuff for us. And so he became 0:47:15.476 --> 0:47:18.316 friends with Oscar because Oscar's Canadian too, so he brought 0:47:18.316 --> 0:47:20.796 Oscar Peterson over. We're like I called James Duton Howard. 0:47:20.916 --> 0:47:22.716 So you got to get over here right now. Man, 0:47:23.116 --> 0:47:25.716 this is gonna get serious here. You know. Of course 0:47:25.796 --> 0:47:27.796 I didn't have any I didn't take any pictures during 0:47:27.796 --> 0:47:29.796 the time, and I don't have any pictures from it. 0:47:29.996 --> 0:47:31.156 Did he play on this piano? 0:47:31.476 --> 0:47:34.236 No, I have a piano downstairs. Oscar played on because 0:47:34.236 --> 0:47:36.396 a nine foot ball with st ten. He looks at 0:47:36.436 --> 0:47:37.636 my piano. It was nice box. 0:47:40.396 --> 0:47:45.236 Unbelievable, man, How did you guys change as people before 0:47:45.276 --> 0:47:47.236 having those hits and having the hit? I mean, did 0:47:47.316 --> 0:47:49.796 at any point? Did it get competitive? But not amongst 0:47:49.836 --> 0:47:52.156 you guys, but with other groups? Did you feel like 0:47:52.396 --> 0:47:54.156 we want hits. So did you feel like you want 0:47:54.156 --> 0:47:55.036 to compete on the live? 0:47:55.236 --> 0:47:57.756 I mean, yeah, what was What's so funny because after, 0:47:57.996 --> 0:48:01.516 like years later, I talked to some people the Recession guys, 0:48:01.796 --> 0:48:06.996 Danny Korchmeyer, Danny Cooch, a, Waddie Walke Tell, and they 0:48:07.036 --> 0:48:09.116 told me we were so pissed off at you guys 0:48:09.156 --> 0:48:10.956 when he came out with all the line They go, 0:48:11.036 --> 0:48:14.316 that's a goddamn do wop song and we should have 0:48:14.356 --> 0:48:16.596 played that. We should have played the solo on that record, 0:48:16.596 --> 0:48:18.996 not Lucather and everything like that, because look at it 0:48:19.076 --> 0:48:22.716 played like a Brian May kind of Queen's you know, 0:48:22.756 --> 0:48:24.916 he shredded it, you know, and they were gonna play 0:48:24.956 --> 0:48:26.756 like Doom Do Doom Do Do Do Do Do Do 0:48:26.876 --> 0:48:29.916 Do Do do? They wanted to treat it like about 0:48:29.916 --> 0:48:31.556 you guys, and that you could do that, but then 0:48:31.596 --> 0:48:34.276 have Luke at there do like a Brian John. We 0:48:34.276 --> 0:48:35.676 were mashing up genres, you know. 0:48:35.716 --> 0:48:37.756 At the time, it's the coolest thing about you guys. 0:48:37.796 --> 0:48:39.956 Yeah, man, And later on we'd be Luke, we kind 0:48:39.956 --> 0:48:42.956 of were competitive with the songwriting he bring in this 0:48:43.076 --> 0:48:45.276 and I'd be like I still today can't write. He 0:48:45.356 --> 0:48:48.196 writes every time he breaks up with somebody, he would 0:48:48.196 --> 0:48:51.516 write a great ballad, a love ballad, and he just 0:48:51.796 --> 0:48:54.116 he's great pills and he sings it and he sings 0:48:54.196 --> 0:48:56.516 him too. You know, how did you guys work that out? 0:48:56.556 --> 0:48:58.556 But I mean, there's so many people in the group 0:48:58.596 --> 0:49:01.476 who could sing the song, someone who could write the song. 0:49:02.196 --> 0:49:04.676 We would listen to the best songs in yours. Anybody 0:49:04.676 --> 0:49:07.396 has a song, bring it in and we'll listen to it. Now, 0:49:07.556 --> 0:49:10.476 just listen to whose voice it's that. And so each 0:49:10.476 --> 0:49:12.916 of us would try. You know, everybody tried to sing Africa. 0:49:13.276 --> 0:49:15.076 They just couldn't spit all the words out. And I 0:49:15.196 --> 0:49:17.596 was I ended up singing the song that I wrote. 0:49:17.596 --> 0:49:20.836 You know, you'd written it a little easier to you know. 0:49:21.036 --> 0:49:24.796 So, as usual, the band says to me, next time 0:49:24.836 --> 0:49:27.036 you're going to write a number one single, make sure 0:49:27.116 --> 0:49:29.236 that you're not the singer on it. Make sure our 0:49:29.276 --> 0:49:31.716 lead singer sings the whole thing. And I'm like, guys, 0:49:31.756 --> 0:49:32.396 I didn't know. 0:49:32.796 --> 0:49:34.436 You guys really not know Africa would be. 0:49:34.596 --> 0:49:38.076 No no idea really, no idea really. That was the 0:49:38.156 --> 0:49:41.116 last song that was eleventh hour song that we had 0:49:41.116 --> 0:49:44.236 the whole album done, and we just start experimenting with well, 0:49:44.276 --> 0:49:46.156 here's maybe a song that and they used to say 0:49:46.476 --> 0:49:48.996 it was a joke, Dave, save this for your solo record, 0:49:49.196 --> 0:49:51.396 which there was none, you know what I mean, and 0:49:51.556 --> 0:49:53.916 or or maybe for the next album. This is a 0:49:53.956 --> 0:49:59.276 good song. No, no, this stor our sense of humor, 0:49:59.436 --> 0:50:02.396 just fucking with me, you know. So we start experimenting 0:50:02.396 --> 0:50:04.396 with it around, making a loop. We we knew we 0:50:04.436 --> 0:50:06.716 had time because we'd already done our album. So we 0:50:06.756 --> 0:50:08.476 got in the studio and made a loop, a drum 0:50:08.516 --> 0:50:12.276 loop with any Castro and Jeffercarl and then I put 0:50:12.316 --> 0:50:14.716 on a C. S eighty thing and we started building 0:50:14.756 --> 0:50:17.276 it little by little and just everybody was making their 0:50:17.316 --> 0:50:20.116 own parts up, and it just came came to being, 0:50:20.196 --> 0:50:21.876 you know, and we were like, well, okay, this is 0:50:21.916 --> 0:50:24.676 the last cut. It's kind of different kind of world music. 0:50:24.996 --> 0:50:26.836 And then they called from New York. Sony called it 0:50:26.876 --> 0:50:29.316 says they're playing it in a disco, a big disco. 0:50:29.356 --> 0:50:31.836 It's a big hit in New York. Africa is and 0:50:31.876 --> 0:50:35.476 this started going around the United States. People start picking 0:50:35.516 --> 0:50:37.396 it up, and it just gained momentium. 0:50:37.636 --> 0:50:42.236 So cool, you guys have these incredible pop songs. We're 0:50:42.276 --> 0:50:45.676 talking about Africa, Rosanna, songs like that, and then the 0:50:45.716 --> 0:50:48.836 solos that you're playing. How did you pull back? Because 0:50:48.836 --> 0:50:50.716 I mean I would love to hear like an eight 0:50:50.756 --> 0:50:52.756 minute so yeah, of you? I mean, how did you 0:50:52.796 --> 0:50:53.956 guys try yourself? 0:50:54.596 --> 0:50:56.756 Times we played Rosanna? We jammed on the end there? 0:50:56.836 --> 0:50:58.436 Did you you just hear the little. 0:50:58.356 --> 0:50:59.436 You hear a little short one? 0:50:59.516 --> 0:51:00.796 Hear the short? I want to? 0:51:00.796 --> 0:51:02.876 We said, well, we're going to keep it short this time, guys, 0:51:02.916 --> 0:51:04.596 you know what I mean, keep the endiing there, you 0:51:04.596 --> 0:51:06.036 know what I mean, get it all in. But that 0:51:06.116 --> 0:51:09.596 was that went longer. That fade out probably in another 0:51:09.596 --> 0:51:11.916 two minutes, you know what I mean, We just faded 0:51:11.956 --> 0:51:12.516 it out. You know. 0:51:12.676 --> 0:51:15.876 Love to hear that? Yeah, loved me too. I don't 0:51:15.916 --> 0:51:17.636 know how you guys did it, as like there's not 0:51:17.716 --> 0:51:21.836 many groups who could be as musically inclined as you guys. 0:51:21.956 --> 0:51:24.596 And also but also we like kind of know, like, okay, 0:51:24.636 --> 0:51:26.756 we got to do the short version. 0:51:26.836 --> 0:51:31.836 That's the reason we just decided instead of forming a group. 0:51:31.876 --> 0:51:33.876 We got offers to form our out of our high 0:51:33.876 --> 0:51:36.236 school band to sign a deal, and we turned it 0:51:36.276 --> 0:51:38.396 down because we said we want to go in and 0:51:38.476 --> 0:51:41.076 learn how to make records so that we don't come 0:51:41.076 --> 0:51:44.236 out we don't learn on our first record. We're just 0:51:44.276 --> 0:51:46.876 barely learning how to make records here. So we each 0:51:46.916 --> 0:51:49.236 went off our different directions and we did a lot 0:51:49.276 --> 0:51:52.356 of sessions and gained all this knowledge, so we were 0:51:52.396 --> 0:51:55.276 ready to We were like co producing ourselves by the 0:51:55.316 --> 0:51:57.556 band members, by their just their experience. 0:51:57.716 --> 0:51:59.876 Did you learn about a lot about songwriting playing on 0:51:59.876 --> 0:52:02.076 other people's songs? 0:52:00.716 --> 0:52:04.076 Yeahs I learned a lot about what I didn't want 0:52:04.116 --> 0:52:07.436 to do because I kept I would try and make 0:52:07.476 --> 0:52:09.316 them a little more of my songs. I try and 0:52:09.316 --> 0:52:12.156 re arrange them when using my changes. But everybody else 0:52:12.196 --> 0:52:15.956 wanted to use these jazzy cords tho. It's like, and 0:52:16.076 --> 0:52:24.436 I was going for the everybody else. That's what Foster had, 0:52:24.516 --> 0:52:26.596 Graydon and those guys were always that the earth wind 0:52:26.636 --> 0:52:28.796 and fire. Yeah they were. Everybody was trying to be 0:52:28.836 --> 0:52:31.676 earth winded fire at the time, Okay, and so was I. 0:52:31.716 --> 0:52:38.596 So we all were yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, that's 0:52:38.676 --> 0:52:40.036 kind of earth windy right there. Do you know what 0:52:40.076 --> 0:52:40.316 I mean? 0:52:40.436 --> 0:52:42.956 Domins and Russ Joan Bias last, Oh, yeah, you can. 0:52:42.916 --> 0:52:47.476 Know about that record that I knew the producer. I'd 0:52:47.476 --> 0:52:50.996 worked with him, the guy named David Krushenbaum, and he 0:52:51.116 --> 0:52:53.636 hired me and we all great thing that I got 0:52:53.636 --> 0:52:55.836 to play with Joe Sample. Joe Sample and me played 0:52:55.836 --> 0:53:00.836 together on that. I played piano and he played roxy 0:53:00.956 --> 0:53:03.876 chord I think or electric piano, Roxy court and had 0:53:03.956 --> 0:53:08.116 Larry Carlton, Dean Parks, Jim Gordon on drums and I 0:53:08.236 --> 0:53:11.276 just got to play on that record, and uh, it 0:53:11.396 --> 0:53:14.076 was fun. Joan Bias was great. We just I had 0:53:14.116 --> 0:53:17.316 done a midnight special with her with our band. She 0:53:17.396 --> 0:53:20.156 ended up using our band for backup band on Midnight Special. 0:53:20.716 --> 0:53:26.196 But a funny story about Steely Dan Walter Becker heard 0:53:26.276 --> 0:53:28.996 the Diamonds and Rust album and saw that Larry Carleton 0:53:29.076 --> 0:53:32.316 had arranged it, and that's why he called Carlton to 0:53:33.036 --> 0:53:37.036 arrange the World Scam album because he said, if he 0:53:37.316 --> 0:53:40.476 they can make Joan Biaz sound this good, they're gonna 0:53:40.516 --> 0:53:42.996 be able to arrange our stuff. And that was that 0:53:43.116 --> 0:53:45.636 was the deal. They That was the album that they 0:53:45.836 --> 0:53:47.076 got turned on too. Larry Carleton. 0:53:47.436 --> 0:53:49.436 I mean that's the song Joan Bias says, that's her 0:53:50.276 --> 0:53:50.836 best song. 0:53:51.156 --> 0:53:52.236 Yeah, it was great. 0:53:52.356 --> 0:53:53.796 It was moved. 0:53:53.956 --> 0:53:56.036 She was like the Dylan's counterpart. 0:53:56.556 --> 0:53:58.236 Yeah, and he was moved to Colin and tell her 0:53:58.276 --> 0:54:00.316 this is incredible, you know, I mean. 0:54:00.236 --> 0:54:02.876 What a god. We could talk for another two hours. 0:54:02.876 --> 0:54:04.756 I don't want to. I wanted to go through the 0:54:04.836 --> 0:54:06.316 room and just ask about everything you got. 0:54:06.796 --> 0:54:08.396 Let me show you downstairs real quick. 0:54:08.396 --> 0:54:09.716 I'll be awesome and maybe we'll do it again. 0:54:09.716 --> 0:54:11.796 Man, Yeah, I think we should do it again. Yeah. 0:54:11.796 --> 0:54:16.676 Cool. Thanks so much to David Page for inviting us 0:54:16.676 --> 0:54:19.436 into his home and playing for us. You can hear 0:54:19.476 --> 0:54:22.356 all of our favorite Toto songs and other stuff Davids 0:54:22.356 --> 0:54:25.836 played on on a playlist at broken record podcast dot com. 0:54:26.236 --> 0:54:29.196 Subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash 0:54:29.236 --> 0:54:31.676 broken Record Podcast, where you can find all of our 0:54:31.676 --> 0:54:35.756 new episodes. You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. 0:54:36.236 --> 0:54:39.196 Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with 0:54:39.276 --> 0:54:42.756 marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer 0:54:42.916 --> 0:54:47.276 is Ben Tollway. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. 0:54:47.676 --> 0:54:50.436 If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider 0:54:50.516 --> 0:54:54.876 subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription 0:54:54.956 --> 0:54:57.756 that offers bonus content and ad free listening for four 0:54:57.876 --> 0:55:02.596 ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts, subscriptions, 0:55:03.276 --> 0:55:05.916 and if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, 0:55:05.956 --> 0:55:08.716 and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's 0:55:08.716 --> 0:55:10.756 by any Beats. I'm justin Richmond.