1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the 2 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 1: noon and five pm Eastern on Apple, Cocklay and Android 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube. 6 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 2: President Trump and the Italian Prime Minister Georgia Maloney week especially. 7 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 2: We will hear from the two of them shortly as 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: reporters are led in to the Oval Office, and in 9 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 2: the meantime, I wonder if President Trump is making some 10 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 2: comparisons between the Central Bank Maloney is working with right 11 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 2: now compared to the Central Bank that he is working with. 12 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 2: The FED and the ECB obviously on two different tracks. 13 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 2: Is the ECB cut rates for a seventh time today 14 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 2: and the Chairman of the Fed obviously signaling that the 15 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 2: Fed is going to stay on hold. President Trump taking 16 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 2: note of that, not too happy with it, as he 17 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 2: posts on true Social too late. Jerome Powell of the Fed, 18 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 2: who is always too late and wrong, yesterday issued a 19 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 2: report which was another and typical complete mess, going on 20 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 2: to say too late should have lowered interest rates like 21 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 2: the ECB long ago, but he certainly should lower them. 22 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 2: Now Powell's termination Joe cannot come fast enough. 23 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,199 Speaker 3: Okay, So fast forward to Section ten of the Federal 24 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 3: Reserve Act and you start wondering exactly what authority the 25 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 3: president has here. That's what we wanted to spend some 26 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 3: time with Mike McKee. He knows this stuff inside and out, 27 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 3: of course. Bloomberg International Economics and Policy correspondent with us 28 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 3: from World Headquarters in New York. 29 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 4: Mike, great to see. 30 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 3: I'm sure your antennas went up as soon as the 31 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 3: truth social post went here. Here's the deal can be 32 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 3: quote removed for cause by the president unquote. Does not 33 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 3: cutting rates equal cause? 34 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 5: Uh No, that's the general consensus of the legal world. 35 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 5: I must say that so far, the consensus on social 36 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 5: media is that always late is probably the worst nickname 37 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 5: Trump has ever given anybody. 38 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 6: It just has no rhythm to it. 39 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 3: Always late and wrong. 40 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 5: Traditionally, for cause has been seen as malfeasance or illegality, 41 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 5: something like that. A policy difference is not for cause. However, 42 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 5: this president is not traditional, and he has tried to 43 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 5: fire people who, in theory he could not because they had. 44 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 6: Four clause. 45 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 5: For cause clauses in their founding acts, including the head 46 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 5: of the National Labor Relations Board, and that case has 47 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 5: been going back and forth through the court system. She's 48 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 5: been hired and fired back several times by different judges. 49 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 5: The Supreme Court hasn't agreed to necessarily take that yet, 50 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 5: but Chief Justice John Roberts has issued a stay of 51 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 5: an appeals. 52 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 6: Court order that ordered her back to work. 53 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 5: So the suggestion is the court may take it now. 54 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 5: If the court does rule against gwyn Wilcox is the 55 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 5: woman's name, then there is some thought that that could 56 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 5: apply to the FED as well. However, there is one 57 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 5: other and I'm gonna bore you with this information, if 58 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 5: one other case called Sela Law, which was when the 59 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 5: administration tried to fire the head of the Consumer Finance 60 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 5: Protection Bureau and the court ruled that a single agency 61 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 5: head independent agency like the CFPB, the president could get 62 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 5: rid of. But the FED is not a single head. 63 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 6: While J. Powell is the chair, it's a. 64 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 5: Seven member board and the actions the FED takes can 65 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 5: only be taken because the entire board agrees. 66 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 6: So that was the basis for why J. 67 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 5: Powell said yesterday in Chicago that he didn't think that 68 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 5: the lawsuit that is proceeding on the NLRB would apply 69 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 5: to the FED. 70 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 6: But Donald Trump, that's all you got to say. Nobody knows. 71 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 4: Well. 72 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and of course this isn't necessarily a new topic 73 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 2: of conversation, as Joe alluded to, the President has expressed 74 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 2: a displeasure with Jerom Powell before, which is why yesterday 75 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 2: before this true social post even hit, when he was 76 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 2: speaking at the Economic Club of Chicago, Chairman Powell was 77 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 2: asked directly about this question of independence and whether he 78 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 2: could be fired. This was his response, as you heard live. 79 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 7: In the room, Mic, Our independence is a matter of law. 80 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 7: Congress has in our statute were not removable except for 81 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 7: cause we serve very long terms, seemingly endless terms. So's 82 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 7: we're protected in the law. So you know, Congress could 83 00:04:57,760 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 7: change that law. But there's I don't think there's any 84 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 7: danger that FED independence has pretty broad support across both 85 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 7: political parties. 86 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 2: And it seems that there's support from elsewhere in the 87 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 2: administration for FED independence, Mike, even if not from the 88 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 2: President himself. It was just on Monday that the Treasury 89 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 2: Secretary Scott Besson told our colleague Anne Marie Hordern that 90 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 2: the independence of monetary policy is a jewel box that 91 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 2: needs to be preserved. Does that actually maybe indicate that 92 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 2: there are voices who would act to check the president 93 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 2: on this one? 94 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 6: Well, I think there definitely are voices. 95 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 5: Anybody who's had experience with financial markets would know that 96 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 5: any attempt to fire the chairman of the Fed. 97 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 6: Would be received very badly. 98 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 5: And there's a report from Politico today that Scott Bessen 99 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 5: has been over to the White House saying, kind of 100 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 5: knock these tweets off the idea, don't say you're going 101 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 5: to fire him. And there was a report earlier that 102 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 5: a senior White House officier was saying this wasn't a threat, 103 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 5: this was just the President venting. Now that it's going 104 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 5: to keep happening, nobody's going to shut Downald Trump up 105 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 5: and when he doesn't like something or wants something out 106 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 5: of the Fed, like everybody else, he's going to he's 107 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 5: going to attack them. So the question really does he 108 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 5: follow up? And probably he wouldn't make a decision until 109 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 5: in our National Labor Relations Board decision comes down from 110 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 5: the Supreme Court and he gets advice on whether it 111 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 5: could possibly apply. So I don't think there's any danger 112 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 5: in the short term, this is going to happen, and 113 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 5: probably we won't hear more from the President given everything 114 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 5: else he's doing right now until we get close to 115 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 5: the next FED meeting on May seven, all right, which. 116 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 2: Of course Michael McKee will have covered for us as always. 117 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 2: Bloomberg International Economics and Policy correspondent joining us from New York. 118 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, And as we consider Joe the 119 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 2: kind of legal questions here was what just weeks ago 120 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 2: after the firing of the two Democratic commissioners at the 121 00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 2: Federal Trade Commission, that we spoke with then ousted Commissioner 122 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 2: Rebecca Kelly Slaughter, who told us, look, if it can 123 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 2: happen to me, there is nothing to say that it's 124 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 2: not also applicable to the chair of the Federal. 125 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 3: Desert or connected the dots straight to the top of 126 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 3: the FED as we're discussing here today. 127 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 6: Look, I don't know. 128 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 3: There are a lot of different ways that you can 129 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 3: look at this. We'll see if they try to establish 130 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 3: some sort of cause or maybe just the President having 131 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 3: a cathartic moment online. It wouldn't be the first time. 132 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 2: Oh no, it certainly would not. So on that note, 133 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 2: let's turn to our political panel who was all too 134 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 2: familiar with us asking them about each and every post 135 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 2: on true Social Rick Davis is with US partner at 136 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 2: Stone Court Capital and Republican Strategists alongside Democratic strategist Caitlin 137 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: Lngaki Today, Rick, I do wonder if you see this 138 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 2: as just venting or when the President says that someone 139 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 2: can't be terminated fast enough that he's suggesting he wants 140 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 2: to do that in short order. 141 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 4: Yeah. 142 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 8: Look, I mean, you know, we have to look at 143 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 8: what this administration has been doing, and they are testing 144 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 8: the powers of the presidency on a systematic basis by 145 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 8: taking actions that heretofore have been considered extra legal and 146 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 8: letting the courts tell them whether or not it's okay 147 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 8: or not. And I think it's kind of an eighty 148 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 8: twenty thing for this administration. I wouldn't be surprised that 149 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 8: there isn't a conversation that's been had, not just a 150 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 8: random Trump tweet. That is why in the world wouldn't 151 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 8: the president have a higher fire authority over the leadership 152 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 8: of the FED, regardless of who's in charge, And should 153 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 8: we try to test that in the courts because he's 154 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 8: got a compliance Supreme Court, they are more likely to 155 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 8: be supportive of his strong executive branch actions than any 156 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 8: other court we've seen a long time, and so I 157 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 8: see no reason why this doesn't fit into that same category, 158 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,559 Speaker 8: whether it's a good deer or not. I mean, we 159 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 8: would want to defer to Secretary Besson who says it's 160 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 8: a jewel box, and I like jewel boxes, we should 161 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 8: keep those. 162 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 3: Box or if it's the lock box that al Gore 163 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 3: was talking about here. Caitlin in an interview with Bloomberg 164 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 3: business Week on June twenty fifth, right, so less than 165 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 3: a year ago. This is campaign trail. Donald Trump said, 166 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 3: if reelected, he would let Powell finish his term, adding quote, 167 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 3: especially if I thought he was doing the right thing unquote, 168 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 3: which Trump, do you believe? 169 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 9: I believe the Trumps. It's tweeting in the middle of 170 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 9: the night. M He's very skilled at telling people what 171 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 9: they want to hear in the moment that he's trying 172 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 9: to get what he wants. But we have seen over 173 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 9: and over again that Trump does not like it when 174 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 9: people put up any sort of resistance to him or 175 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 9: his goals. And it's clear from his truth social posts 176 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 9: or his tweets or whatever you want to call them, 177 00:09:55,400 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 9: that he's getting very frustrated with Powell, and so I 178 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:05,199 Speaker 9: think it's hugely concerning. I think that they're absolutely trying 179 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 9: to test the fences and see what they can get 180 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 9: away with. And I wouldn't be surprised if they try 181 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 9: to see what is on the table in terms of 182 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 9: changing leadership at the FED. 183 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 10: Well. 184 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 2: As we've been discussing Caitlin, A lot of that may 185 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,559 Speaker 2: actually be left up to the decision of the Supreme 186 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 2: Court in the NLRB case. Given that we have seen 187 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 2: kind of splits in the justices in terms of when 188 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 2: they are and are not willing to rule with this 189 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 2: administration on the efforts it's made in the last nearly 190 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 2: ninety days, how do you expect the Court ultimately comes 191 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 2: down on this, knowing that it hasn't always been kind 192 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 2: to kind of regulatory authorities in general. 193 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 9: Yeah, I think that Rick was right when he said 194 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 9: that Trump's working with a compliant and a friendly Supreme Court. 195 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 9: I think where there is some measure of hope for 196 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 9: Democrats or Powell supporters or people who are just opposed 197 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 9: to Trump, is that ultimately someday the shoe will be 198 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 9: on the other foot, And I think there are a 199 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 9: number of you know, Supreme Court justices who wouldn't want 200 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 9: to extend that same power to democrats or progressives when 201 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 9: they are in power. And so I think that's an 202 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 9: important kind of seat belt and restraining factor keeping some 203 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 9: of these norms in place. But it's still very much 204 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 9: the kind of court that seems inclined to expand executive power. 205 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 3: You know, there was a time, Kaylee, we were talking 206 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 3: to Scott Bessant before he got the job. This also 207 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,959 Speaker 3: was during the campaign about the idea of a shadow 208 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 3: that's right, and we haven't heard a lot about that 209 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 3: idea since. You wonder Rick Davis, if maybe that's no 210 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 3: forget firing the FED chair, but could you cut him 211 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 3: off at the knees or lower his authority by putting 212 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 3: in place a shadow chair doing something like that to 213 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 3: check j Powell without actually showing him the door. 214 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 8: Yeah, I think this is the distinction between are you 215 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 8: upset with the individual J. Palell or you upset with 216 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 8: the actions of the FED. And if you're upset with 217 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 8: the actions of the Fed, and he's indicated as much 218 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 8: in this recent tweet. He likes what the ECP's do 219 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 8: and they've cut rates seven times in the last eight meetings. 220 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:17,959 Speaker 8: That's what he wants. Cut more rates, give me lower interests. 221 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:20,439 Speaker 8: It will help me get over some of the effect 222 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:24,199 Speaker 8: of inflation on the on because of the tariffs, and 223 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 8: so I think it's more driven by I think policy, 224 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 8: and so he's going to try and work the ref 225 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 8: and make it very uncomfortable for Pal not to be 226 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 8: more aggressive on rate cuts. And I think he's going 227 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 8: to try and look, I'm sure at like, what are 228 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 8: the options to be able to pack the FED with 229 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 8: people who will be more compliant to his point of view. 230 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 8: And in that regard, that's a game that other administrations 231 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 8: have played for as long as there's been a FED. 232 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 8: And whether or not you could actually get somebody in 233 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 8: there who's a shadow governor, who has so much access 234 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 8: and authority to Trump that they would overshadow Pal, I 235 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 8: think that's a real long shot. I think he's back 236 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 8: to saying, Hey, I want to get rid of Pal. 237 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 8: I want someone in there. It will do my bidding. 238 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 8: And by the way, that's what he's done in every 239 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 8: agency right now that reports to the executive branch, but not. 240 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 2: Every agency has the kind of sway over financial markets 241 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 2: that the Federal Reserve does. In Kaitlin, Mike McKee was 242 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 2: just alluding to this notion. We already saw last week 243 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 2: President Trump looking at what he described as queasiness in 244 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 2: the bond market, and under a guidance from Commerce Secretary 245 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 2: Howard Luttnik and Treasury Secretary Besson, decided to pull back 246 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 2: his tariff policy. What's to say that the threat of 247 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 2: financial market disruptions will not also be a deterrent to 248 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 2: him perhaps acting on his impulses when it comes to 249 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 2: Chairman Powell. 250 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 9: I think that's the main thing and the only thing 251 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 9: that is keeping him from acting on his impulses related 252 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 9: to Powell, because it does if he takes the unprecedent 253 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:04,439 Speaker 9: step of trying to fire Chairman Powell, the markets will 254 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 9: freak out. And I think it feeds into a larger 255 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 9: narrative that Trump is facing headwinds on right now, which 256 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 9: is that he is acting recklessly to ruin the economy, 257 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 9: and this would simply feed into that. And so I 258 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 9: think it is appropriate that Scott Vessett has raised these 259 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 9: issues with him. I think it is pretty much the 260 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 9: only thing that's keeping Trump in check right now. But 261 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 9: it's a real concern and I think it's a very 262 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 9: powerful deterrent that is working in Powell's favor. 263 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 3: Fascinating conversation with our panel, Rick Davis and kate Lin Leghaki. 264 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 3: Thank you both for being with us today on the 265 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 3: Thursday edition. We'll let you know, of course, what transpires 266 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 3: on this front if we hear any more from Donald Trump. 267 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 3: We are going to be hearing from the President. We 268 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 3: expect a bit later on this hour from the Oval 269 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 3: Office in his bilateral meeting with the Prime Minister of Italy, 270 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 3: Georgia Maloney is in Washington and in the White House, 271 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 3: and Kaylie, we'll talk a little bit more coming up 272 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 3: here as we bring our listeners and viewers to the 273 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 3: White House about reciprocal tariffs and whether Italy can carve 274 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 3: out a deal on its own. 275 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, especially when the administration is looking for not just 276 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 2: action on tariff but non tariff barriers, maybe defense spending 277 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 2: as well. We'll get into all of that ahead here 278 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 2: on Bloomberg TV and radio. 279 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcasts. Catch 280 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on 281 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: Alpha Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. 282 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 283 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 284 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 2: Keeping an eye on the White House, where we are 285 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 2: still waiting for the doors to open back up. In 286 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 2: the meeting between President Trump and the Italian Prime Minister 287 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 2: Georgia Maloney, they of course spoke to press briefly in 288 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 2: the cabinet room as they were sitting down to lunch. 289 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 2: They're expected to once again take some questions in the 290 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 2: Oval Office really any minute now. But noteworthy, of course 291 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 2: that this visit is coming when it is, and with 292 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 2: who it is. Considering, Georgia Maloney may very well be 293 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 2: one of the closest allies President Trump has in Europe, 294 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 2: most ideologically aligned, perhaps, and she's here as an emissary 295 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 2: for the wider European Union. 296 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 9: That's right. 297 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 2: To talk trade, that's. 298 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 3: Right, and of course to speak about maybe some carve 299 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 3: outs for Italy, which I suspect we'll be hearing about. 300 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 3: We actually saw them both together at the beginning of 301 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 3: their lunch. They gathered in the cabinet room let reporters 302 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 3: in for a couple of questions, I think she's a 303 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 3: great Prime minister, he said, we're very proud of her. 304 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 3: I knew her right from the beginning. She's one of 305 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 3: the real leaders of the world. And he looked up 306 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 3: and said, I can't do better than that, and she 307 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 3: had a Shocklal. So, clearly this is going to be 308 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 3: a little bit different than a meeting with some other 309 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 3: European leaders who may be in Washington. Not an accident, 310 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 3: and Bloomberg's Tyler Kendall is at the White House right 311 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 3: now ahead of their meeting in the Oval Office. 312 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 11: Tyler, yeah, hey, Joe, Well you said it there. President 313 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 11: Trump really greeting Maloney with some high praise, as this 314 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 11: meeting is largely seen as a test of their relatively 315 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 11: warm relationship and whether or not that will be enough 316 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 11: to push ahead trade talks with the European Union, which 317 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 11: our reporting indicates haven't really made much progress in recent weeks. Take, 318 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 11: for example, earlier this week Bloomberg News reporting that the 319 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 11: EUS trade chief left a meeting here in Washington with 320 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 11: very little clarity about what this White House needs in 321 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 11: order to get a deal done now. For his part, 322 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 11: President Trump did tail reporters earlier that he sees no 323 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 11: trouble with getting a deal done with the European Union. 324 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 11: He said he's confident, but also in no rush. He 325 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 11: also said, as you're about to hear here, despite these 326 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 11: ongoing negotiations, that ten percent baseline terff across the board 327 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 11: could ultimately get a little higher, indicating that even as 328 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 11: the talks are getting underway, there's likely no plans to 329 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 11: abandon the tariffs completely. 330 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 12: We're getting a ten percent baseline. We took that down 331 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 12: just because it was, you know, the appropriate thing to 332 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 12: do until we decide what the number will be. And 333 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 12: we're taking in a lot of money, which we've never 334 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 12: done before. Frankly with Biden. We will lose it a 335 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 12: fortune on trade, but we're you know, we're moving along 336 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 12: very nicely and we're going to end up with a 337 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 12: baseline of a substantial number. 338 00:17:59,040 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 9: Well. 339 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 11: This White House is previously said that it would be 340 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 11: looking for the European Union to boost its energy imports 341 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 11: of USL ANDNG for example, as well as has made 342 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 11: a priority asking our allies to up their defense spending. 343 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 11: When it comes to NATO commitments. We'll have to see 344 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 11: as this goes. Because Bloomberg News reporting you today that 345 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 11: the EU is actually working on a proposal to potentially 346 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 11: introduce some restrictions on some US exports if negotiations don't 347 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 11: go as planned, So already starting to work on that 348 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 11: backup plan here as the Italian Prime Minister says that 349 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 11: she's hoping President Trump will make an official visit to 350 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 11: Italy so he can meet with some other EU leaders 351 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 11: face to face. 352 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 2: All right, Bloomberg Tyler Kendall live at the White House 353 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 2: for us here on Bloomberg TV and Radio. Thank you 354 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 2: so much, and we want to get more analysis on 355 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 2: what exactly we can or should expect coming from this meeting. 356 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 2: And turn to Rachel Rizzo. Now she's non resident Senior 357 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 2: Fellow at the Atlanta Council's Europe Center, joining us here 358 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 2: on balance of power. Rachel, welcome back. It's good to 359 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 2: have you as we consider Georgia Maloney is kind of 360 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 2: the messenger and first immediate negotiator here, if you will, 361 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 2: Is she the best hope Europe has trying to carve 362 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 2: out a deal? 363 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 13: Well, I think so. I know that there's a lot 364 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 13: of nervousness around the European Union that she would try 365 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 13: to carve out benefits for Italy specifically, rather than coming 366 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 13: to the White House and putting on a united front 367 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,439 Speaker 13: on behalf of the European Union. I'm not as nervous 368 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 13: about that because I do think Prime Minister Maloney does 369 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 13: understand that she's in sort of a special position here. 370 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 13: She really gets along with Elon Musk, who, as we know, 371 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 13: is very close to the President, and she has a 372 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 13: very similar worldview, especially when it comes to domestic issues 373 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 13: as Trump and his team. So I think what this 374 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 13: means is that she's a good bridge between the United 375 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 13: States and the EU during this time, and she speaks 376 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:00,920 Speaker 13: this sort of Trumpian language that I don't think other 377 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 13: European leaders know how to speak. I mean, I know 378 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 13: that vonder Lyon, for example, Ursula vonder Lyon, the President 379 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 13: of the Commission, would probably love to come to Washington 380 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 13: and meet with Trump one on one, but he doesn't 381 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 13: want to meet with her. He does want to meet 382 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 13: with Maloney, and this visit comes after a special invitation 383 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 13: from Trump and his team. 384 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 3: Well, so what is vonder Lyon or the rest of 385 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 3: EU leadership think about the role that she's playing today 386 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 3: the way you just framed it, is she there emissary. 387 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 13: In a way I think she is. I mean, as 388 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 13: I mentioned, I think that there is some trepidation on 389 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 13: behalf of EU leaders. You've seen some statements come out, 390 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 13: you know, talking about the fact that Maloney had a 391 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 13: special conversation with vonder Lyon or vonder Lyon did make 392 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 13: it clear that she better come to Washington and speak 393 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 13: on behalf of the EU rather than focusing specifically on Italy. 394 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 13: You've had some statements from you know, ministers of Europe. 395 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 13: For example, the friend Minister for European Affairs, Benjamin Haddad 396 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 13: in the Foreign Ministry said the same thing over the 397 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 13: last couple of days that if Maloney comes into Washington 398 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 13: talking on behalf of Italy, the European Union's twenty seven 399 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,959 Speaker 13: members are going to look divided, and that is, at 400 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 13: the end of the day, a benefit for Trump and 401 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 13: his team. So there's a lot riding on this visit 402 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 13: for her. But I do think when you look at 403 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 13: the relationship she has with Trump and his team compared 404 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 13: to all of these other European leaders, she's the best 405 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:34,400 Speaker 13: person in my opinion, to play this sort of role 406 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:36,639 Speaker 13: as an emissary between the two sides. This is a 407 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 13: super stressful time between the two trying to hammer out 408 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 13: a lot of issues in terms of defense spending and trade, 409 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 13: and I think that she's cut out for the job. 410 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:50,199 Speaker 2: Well to that point, Rachel, administration officials briefed reporters earlier 411 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 2: today ahead of the visit and said, well, trade and 412 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 2: tariffs will come up, that it wasn't going to be 413 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 2: the focus of their conversation, but that they were going 414 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 2: to talk about things like cooperation in space or energy 415 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 2: or to events. To your point, can we really though, 416 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 2: separate those other issues from the trade negotiations that they 417 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 2: want to get underway? Knowing that this administration has talked 418 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 2: not just about trade specific tariff specific barriers, but non 419 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 2: tariff barriers and other components that you wouldn't necessarily lump 420 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 2: into a bucket with trade policy is still being contingent 421 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 2: on the outcome of these negotiations. 422 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 13: Yeah, I mean, no matter what you say about these 423 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 13: meetings or whatever the White House says about these meetings, 424 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 13: trade and tariff barriers and non tariff barriers are going 425 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,120 Speaker 13: to be a discussion here. There's really no way around it. 426 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 13: But this is also where Maloney comes in in a 427 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 13: pretty interesting position, because you know, Trump has focused a 428 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 13: lot on, for example, defense spending, not just during his 429 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 13: second term, but on his first term. During his first 430 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 13: term as well. You know, he pushed NATO allies to 431 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 13: spend two percent of their GDP on defense in line 432 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 13: with NATO targets, and Italy is famously below a target. 433 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 13: They're only spending about one point five of their GDP 434 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 13: on defense right now. And so I think part of 435 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,120 Speaker 13: the other discussion that's going to happen in the White 436 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 13: House today, there might be some stuff on Ukraine. We're 437 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 13: not sure yet, but I do think Maloney is going 438 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 13: to come in, as reports have said, and tell Trump 439 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 13: that Italy is planning on getting to the two percent 440 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 13: of GDP defense target that Trump and his team are 441 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 13: really pushing now. Unfortunately, this also comes at a time 442 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 13: head of a NATO summit in June where Trump and 443 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 13: his team are expected to push NATO allies even farther 444 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 13: upwards of three percent. So this is a delicate balance 445 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 13: that she's playing here. So there's a lot of factors 446 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 13: that come into play when it comes to these potential conversations. 447 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 13: But again, I think when it comes to who the 448 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 13: EU is going to send as sort of an emissary, 449 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 13: she's probably the best bet. 450 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 3: Well, how about just doing business for herself here? Could 451 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 3: she secure carve outs for Italy. We've talked about this today, 452 00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 3: whether it be cars, wine, or anything that's specific to 453 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 3: the country that would then lead other European leaders to 454 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 3: the White House to try to do the same. Is 455 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 3: that something the EU was worried about happening? 456 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 13: Yeah, I think there is some worry here, and you're 457 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 13: exactly right when it comes to major Italian exports to 458 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:23,919 Speaker 13: the United States, things like wine, cheese, pasta. There's a 459 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 13: nervousness I think on behalf of Italian exporters that this 460 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 13: is going to hit them pretty hard, and American importers 461 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 13: as well, you know, people that own these like small 462 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 13: businesses that rely on Italian imports, and so I think 463 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 13: what you're what we're nervous about seeing is that if 464 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 13: she's able to get these carve outs, even if it's 465 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 13: not on paper, even if it's just Trump talking in 466 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 13: front of a bunch of reporters saying oh, yeah, we 467 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 13: worked this out during lunch and we're going to carve 468 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 13: out X, Y and Z, that other EU leaders will 469 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 13: see that as a sign that perhaps they should also 470 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 13: take their own special trips to the White House to 471 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 13: try to get their own carve outs, and that's I 472 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 13: think where you could potentially see some trouble. But I 473 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 13: think for this White House, what they're really pushing the 474 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 13: Europeans to do is to work together with the United 475 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 13: States on Chinese exports, on Chinese overcapacity, and I think 476 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 13: that's what we need to keep in mind as well. 477 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 2: But is there a risk Europe actually gets pushed closer 478 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 2: to China in the process. 479 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 13: Rachel, absolutely, and I think that this is a very 480 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 13: delicate balance that this administration needs to strike. I mean, 481 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 13: if you want the European Union to work together along 482 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 13: with the United States against China's unfair trade practices, you 483 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 13: have to make sure that you're not targeting the European 484 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 13: Union for your own tariffs and your own trade war, 485 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 13: which in turn would lead them to seek other partners 486 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 13: and potentially deepen their partnership with China because the United 487 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 13: States is now seen as an unreliable ally and unreliable 488 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 13: partner in terms of trade, and so I do think 489 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 13: there's a nervousness there. But with this ninety day pause, 490 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 13: I think that does give some space that some wiggle room. 491 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 13: Trump said today that there will be some sort of 492 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 13: deal between the United States and the European Union, and 493 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 13: I think that is potentially going to hinge on where 494 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 13: the EU falls in terms of its own approach to China, 495 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 13: and we just have to wait and see, I think, 496 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 13: with time over the next ninety days into July, what 497 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 13: that ends up looking like. 498 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 3: Rachel. It's always great to have you, Rachel Rizzo at 499 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 3: the Atlantic Council's Europe Center with important analysis today as 500 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 3: we prepare to hear from the President and the Prime Minister. 501 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,919 Speaker 3: Thank you as always. They're still having lunch, Kayleie. We 502 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 3: haven't seen a readout on the menu, right, What do 503 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,199 Speaker 3: you serve the Prime Minister of Italy when they come 504 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 3: over for lunch? 505 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 2: I would imagine you don't want to take your swing 506 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 2: at Italian. 507 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,400 Speaker 3: Because she can probably would be my guest. Yeah, well done. 508 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 3: Stakes and burgers don't play that great in Rome either, though. 509 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch 510 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on Apple, Coarclay, 511 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 1: and Android Auto with the Blue Birk Business app. Listen 512 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 1: on demand wherever you get your podcasts or watch us 513 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: live on YouTube. 514 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,360 Speaker 3: Wonder what they're serving for lunch at the White House? 515 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 4: Do we get to read out on it? 516 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 3: I'll let you know what we love with possible signs 517 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,199 Speaker 3: of life in the news today, not the White Houses. 518 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 3: Seems to be a lot of life downe there, but 519 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 3: beyond our orbit and our solar system. 520 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 4: Did you see this story? 521 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 3: This is pretty cool stuff and it has to do 522 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 3: with the remarkable scientists who use the James Web Space Telescope. 523 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 3: If you missed this in your social media doom scroll 524 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 3: this morning, let me be the first to tell you 525 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,959 Speaker 3: that this is the coolest story of the day. This 526 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 3: team of researchers offering what it contends is the strongest 527 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 3: indication yet of extraterrestrial life. You've heard stories like this, right, 528 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 3: They found some blob out there, maybe it had water 529 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,239 Speaker 3: on it. Now this is closer to the mark than 530 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 3: we've ever come. A massive planet known as K two 531 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 3: eighteen b okay, that orbits a star one hundred and 532 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,360 Speaker 3: twenty light years from Earth. Somebody is writing a really 533 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 3: cool movie around this, I hope already. And the reason 534 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 3: why it works out is because the two gases involved 535 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 3: in Web's observations of the planet are generated on Earth 536 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 3: by living organisms, suggesting that the planet may be teeming 537 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 3: with life. This is the kind of stuff we live for, 538 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 3: right this idea of hope beyond our own horizons. Unless 539 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 3: the Doge is knocking, and this is something that we 540 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 3: need to spend some time with Keith Cowing talking about. 541 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 3: If you look at the approach that the Doge is 542 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 3: making to not just NASA, but this particular program, space 543 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 3: dot Com, suggesting the team overseeing NASA's Space James Webb's 544 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 3: Space Telecoscope have been direct to prepare for up to 545 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 3: twenty percent in budget cuts that would touch on every 546 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 3: aspect of the flagship observatories operations. Keith Cowing's NASA Watch 547 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 3: has been all over this as well, and he's with 548 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,479 Speaker 3: us right now. We usually have a launch underway when 549 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 3: we get to talk to Keith, the editor nasawatch dot com, 550 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 3: Astrobiology dot com, former scientists with NASA, but we just 551 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 3: got to talk today Keith, and I'm wondering if this 552 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 3: is something that worries you or you're gonna tell me, Joe. 553 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 3: They're gonna make it even more efficient and the web 554 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 3: Telescope is going to work better than ever. 555 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 4: Well, here's the thing. 556 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 14: You make this discovery, and I don't want to put 557 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 14: too much dampening on it, but it is kind of 558 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 14: interesting and it does cost money. The web cost us 559 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 14: tax dollars a. 560 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 4: Lot of money. The thing is doing. 561 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 14: More than it was ever expected to do, and it's 562 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 14: making these discoveries as promised. So you hear all us 563 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 14: talk about America great in space again and all that. 564 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 14: So what is their solution? Cut the funding to the 565 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 14: people who are doing that. So it's a bit of 566 00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 14: a conundrum. Do you want the space stuff or not? 567 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 14: You know, But in terms of the discovery itself, you know, 568 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 14: I'm an astrobiologist by training, used to work at nassah. 569 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 4: Blah blah blah blah blah. Did they find evidence of life? 570 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 14: No, okay, Just to answer your question, there's no proof 571 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 14: that there's anybody, little green men or anything like that 572 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 14: living there, okay, But they found something in the atmosphere 573 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 14: that on Earth comes from plankton and so forth in 574 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 14: the ocean. 575 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 4: Now you can also say that it comes from pollution. 576 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 14: So maybe we found a world is polluted by aliens 577 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 14: or are there other reasons. 578 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 4: Why it could be there. But again, this is so 579 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 4: far away. 580 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 14: It's like, you know, one hundred and twenty four light years, 581 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 14: it's like seven hundred trillion miles and they can see 582 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 14: this sort of stuff if they could see this, and 583 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 14: maybe it isn't why they think it is. They can 584 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 14: see this stuff and they can look elsewhere. 585 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 4: So it's more. 586 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 14: It may be more about how learning how not to 587 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 14: find things and then eventually find it. And you got 588 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 14: to make you know the mistakes once or twice before 589 00:30:58,360 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 14: you get things right. 590 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 3: I love that. That's just perfect analysis and context from Keith. 591 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 3: But the cuts in context. Then if you're working at 592 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 3: the Space Telescope Science Institute in Maryland and you've got 593 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 3: to lop off twenty percent, what does that mean for 594 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 3: your future innovation? 595 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 14: Well, right off the bat, if you meet these papers, 596 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 14: they say, hey, you know, we looked at this planet 597 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 14: and we see this stuff. We need to go back 598 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 14: and get maybe ten or twelve more hours hours you know, 599 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 14: of use with the web telescope. That means a bunch 600 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 14: of people have to point it and watch it and 601 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 14: get the data and so forth. And they're not the 602 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 14: only ones using the web. There's a people all over 603 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 14: the US and all over the world. If you cut 604 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 14: back the ability to study this stuff, you cut back 605 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 14: to science, and it may take you longer to get 606 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 14: your answers because you may have to wait an extra 607 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 14: year to get that observing time. So you know, money 608 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 14: equals science, more money, more science, less money, less science. 609 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 4: It's simple, it's math. 610 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 3: It's okay, Well you made that pretty simple. And I'm 611 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 3: guessing that goes for the agency as a whole. What 612 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 3: STVEE you're going to do to NASA. 613 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 14: Well, you know, it's an ever changing thing. I mean, 614 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 14: first of all, I started we Have to Watch thirty 615 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 14: years ago when there was another reduction in force and 616 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 14: I tried to shut it off. Then I couldn't. I 617 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 14: tried to retire this time, and it came back. 618 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 4: This time. It's coming back with a vengeance. 619 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 14: And oftentimes you think that DOGE looks at the cost 620 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 14: of things but not the value, and that can be problematic, 621 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 14: especially with things like Webb in the space science. 622 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 4: And just imagine this year, you're in your dream job. 623 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 14: You could make more money outside of the government, but 624 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 14: you could you do science for food if you had to. 625 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 14: And now they're saying you've got your dream job, but 626 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 14: we're gonna cut you know, one corner of your staff. 627 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 14: Figure out how to do it, and we're not going 628 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 14: to tell you who's gonna get cut until the last minute. 629 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 14: All Right, I'm sitting there with a dream job on 630 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 14: one shoulder saying it's good, it's good, and then you 631 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 14: got Doge on the other shoulder saying you're probably out 632 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 14: of here. 633 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 4: So how do you function in that environment? 634 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 14: Luckily, people are pretty motivated at NASA, so they're still going. 635 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 3: Keith Cowing says, they keep pulling me back in entered 636 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 3: Jared Isaacman, I want to know your thought on this, 637 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 3: because I think you're a fan based on our prior conversations. 638 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 3: This is the incoming the new NASA administrator. Here's a 639 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 3: moment of him and a back and forth with Senator 640 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 3: Ed Markey and his confirmation hearing just last week. 641 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 14: Was Elon Musk in your meeting when Trump offered you 642 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 14: the NASA position at man. 643 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 10: Laca Center, I was interviewed by the President of the 644 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 10: United States. 645 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 3: Was Elon Musk in the meeting when he offered. 646 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 10: You the job center My meeting was with the President 647 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 10: of the United. 648 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 9: St Elon Musk was not in the meeting. 649 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 10: So just center, I was being interviewed and speaking with 650 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 10: the President of the United States. 651 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 4: Didn't just say he was not in the meeting. Was 652 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 4: he in the meeting or not in the meeting? 653 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 10: I center, I'm trying to be as transparent as I can. 654 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 10: I was being interviewed by the President of the United States. 655 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 4: Keith. 656 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 3: I'm not going to ask you if Elon was in 657 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 3: the meeting. But you've got a billionaire here, a pilot, 658 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 3: a commercial astronaut, and an innovator and someone you I 659 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 3: believe could help to reinvigorate this agency and maybe spend 660 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 3: less money. Could he do more with less? 661 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 4: Yeah. 662 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 14: Look, I've been a part of covering the answer for 663 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 14: thirty years and I've done got just like that. Yeah, 664 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,280 Speaker 14: are you you know, are you who did do or whatever? 665 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 14: And it's a classic thing and you know they do 666 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 14: it in the Congress too. But you know, when you 667 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,760 Speaker 14: here Washington, when you have a meeting with the president, 668 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:20,879 Speaker 14: there's like five Secret Service guys in the room, five 669 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 14: or six age they're there just to be you know, accessories. 670 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 14: The meeting was between him and Trump and that you know, you. 671 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 4: Don't talk about that. 672 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:31,720 Speaker 14: That's just kind of the way it works in Washington 673 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:33,839 Speaker 14: that said, do I think Jared's the man? 674 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 12: Yeah? 675 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 4: I do, I really do. 676 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 14: He's doesn't know any better than to read science fiction 677 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 14: and to take something that he wanted to do his 678 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 14: little kid, and as he got rich by coincidence, he 679 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 14: could go make those dreams happen. And he flies in 680 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 14: space and he makes sure his screw is diverse. Half 681 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 14: women have been, they do, and they do science, go 682 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,359 Speaker 14: out of their way to be the pincushions for the 683 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 14: needles and all that. And oh, by the way, you 684 00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 14: know a lot of people are talking about the six 685 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 14: women who went to space the other day saying it 686 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 14: was you know whatever. He raised a quarter of a 687 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 14: billion dollars for Saint Jude at the same time. So, 688 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,800 Speaker 14: if I'm going to look at somebody who a billionaire 689 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 14: who's going to run NASA, you want one with a heart, 690 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,359 Speaker 14: you want one with a vision, and you want one 691 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 14: that pays attention to the real world as he makes 692 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,359 Speaker 14: these difficult decisions. So I mean, if I were working 693 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 14: there now, I'd be very comfortable with him about to 694 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 14: come on board. 695 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 3: Does Elon Musk play a role in that or does 696 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,839 Speaker 3: this not matter? Because he's on a plane to Texas soon. 697 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 14: I've known Nelon for everybody's known Elon forever. 698 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 4: I mean, Elon is a presence. 699 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 14: He has a company which is composed of thousands and 700 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,320 Speaker 14: thousands of very smart people who are creating a technology 701 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,720 Speaker 14: that makes it easier and more cost efficient for NASA 702 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 14: to do things. So he's a factor, but he's going 703 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 14: to be a factor like Jeff Bezos and a whole 704 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,360 Speaker 14: bunch of other people. The trick for Isaacmund is to 705 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,800 Speaker 14: step beyond that and think of the American people's interest 706 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 14: in their space agency and exploration of space, and he 707 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 14: brings us up all the time, inspiring young people to 708 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,280 Speaker 14: want to join in and be part of that adventure. 709 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,280 Speaker 14: To me is that I'm about to turn seventy. 710 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 4: I'm a child of the Apollo era. 711 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 14: Nothing is more important than grabbing kids at a young age, 712 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 14: getting them fired up, and then giving them a path 713 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 14: to become part of the adventure. So to me, that's 714 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 14: the most important thing that Jared does, and he does 715 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 14: in spades. 716 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 3: Well, that's wonderful and I appreciate the spirit of that comment. Keith, 717 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 3: Does he have the charisma to convince Donald Trump of 718 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 3: that Obviously, Trump's very close with Elon Musk and has 719 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 3: understood the benefits of privatization. What does Jared tell Donald 720 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 3: Trump when they're alone, Jared. 721 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,320 Speaker 14: He's walked the walk, he's flown twice, he's gone into space, 722 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 14: and it's not without risk. You know that rocket could 723 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 14: have they could have a bad day. So you're taking 724 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 14: a personal risk. You know, I've been on expeditions to 725 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,280 Speaker 14: remote places. You're taking a risk, but there's a benefit 726 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 14: that comes from that. And as far as you know 727 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 14: the whole what's going on in this White House. Look, 728 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 14: I live twenty two miles away and I can't figure 729 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 14: it out. But you know that said, you pick the 730 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 14: right guy to be able to say to the president. 731 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 14: You know two and two is four seven days of 732 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 14: a week. You want to go do this great stuff 733 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 14: in space. I can't do it for free. I can 734 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 14: find some fat, but at some point you. 735 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:12,919 Speaker 4: Got to write a check. 736 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 14: You got to give me the ability to get my 737 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 14: inspired people back on track and then stand back because 738 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:19,280 Speaker 14: we'll do some really cool stuff. 739 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 3: So these proposed cuts in our remaining moment Keith Cowing 740 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,280 Speaker 3: may not be fixed. This is still up for debate. 741 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 3: NASA may in fact have the resources that it needs. 742 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 14: It may they may cut some parts and not others. Again, 743 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 14: you know this is this is all a bunch of 744 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 14: kabuki theater. You don't know who's moving the puppets around, 745 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:41,839 Speaker 14: and it changes in a moment's notice. Here and as 746 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 14: you now know, we don't have one news cycle every day, 747 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:45,280 Speaker 14: we have seventeen. 748 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,759 Speaker 3: Oh god, I know it's true. What if they just 749 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 3: renamed the Artemis the Trump Program, wouldn't that help get 750 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 3: us back to the moon? 751 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, you think about that. I don't know. 752 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 14: Artemis is sort of like you know, he started. He 753 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 14: sort of started it, and then you know, Biden kept 754 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 14: it going. So it's got the ability to transcend politics. 755 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,160 Speaker 4: I wouldn't touch it. I wouldn't touch it. 756 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:08,879 Speaker 3: Great to have you back, Keith. Thank you for helping 757 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 3: us make sense of this amazing discovery. I'm holding out 758 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 3: hope here. I just don't think we're ever gonna make 759 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,399 Speaker 3: it that faraway. Nasawatch dot com is where you can 760 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 3: find the great Keith Cowing. Thanks for listening to the 761 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 3: Balance of Power podcast. Make sure to subscribe if you 762 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 3: haven't already, at Apple, Spotify. 763 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 6: Or wherever you get your podcasts. 764 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 3: And you can find us live every weekday from Washington, 765 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 3: DC at noontime Eastern at Bloomberg dot com.