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Speaker 1: Last time on ear witness.

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Speaker 2: She was a very credible witness.

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Speaker 3: We believed her.

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Speaker 4: Obviously, we believed her because we convicted him and it

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Speaker 4: was on her testimony.

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Speaker 5: The only evidence supposedly they had against was this ear

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Speaker 5: witness who had never heard him speak before, who had

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Speaker 5: no idea who he was.

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Speaker 6: That is extremely strong evidence. Chefish believed. Of course, the

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Speaker 6: question would come, so you believe that evidence. Well, to

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Speaker 6: believe that evidence, she had to please. There's Ellison, and so.

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Speaker 1: We're trying to get information on her. Her name's Violet Ellison.

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Speaker 1: Do you have an opinion about her or have any

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Speaker 1: any information that you could give us about her.

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Speaker 7: I know she's very condicted. She's a very messy lady,

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Speaker 7: very messy.

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Speaker 4: I tell you one thing about my grandma.

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Speaker 5: She is a that's a true scam artist.

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Speaker 8: That's a true I hate to see it.

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Speaker 4: I know that's my grandmother. That's a true scam audi death.

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Speaker 9: And I hate that this man could be innocent.

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Speaker 10: And for five thousand dollars, he's on this for a

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Speaker 10: five thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: Near the intersection of Rosa Parks Avenue and Liberty Street

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Speaker 1: in Montgomery, Alabama, is a tiny red brick church outside

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Speaker 1: Saint Peter Ame. A large white banner is stretched twenty

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Speaker 1: five feet across the church's front lawn. The words It's

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Speaker 1: not too late to fix this mistake are written across

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Speaker 1: the banner in black and red letters. The mistake is

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Speaker 1: to forrest Johnson's conviction. The banner was created by an

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Speaker 1: organization called Greater Birmingham Ministries. This year, it has traveled

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Speaker 1: to eight different churches across Alabama to help raise awareness

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Speaker 1: about to Forest's case. Awareness that is growing.

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Speaker 7: Holy cow, it's just ridiculous.

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Speaker 3: This case is shameful.

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Speaker 11: My name is Lindsay Boney. I'm a lawyer at the

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Speaker 11: law firm Bradley Ariant Bolt Cummings. When I think about

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Speaker 11: this case, it's mind blowing to me.

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Speaker 3: My name is Carla Crowder. I'm a lawyer and executive

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Speaker 3: director at Alabama Appleseed Center for Law and Justice. This

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Speaker 3: case is stunning and this case is heartbreaking.

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Speaker 7: My name is Nick Gaeti.

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Speaker 6: I have been an active lawyer in Birmingham since nineteen

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Speaker 6: sixty four. We can do better, and we need.

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Speaker 12: To do better.

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Speaker 3: Lots of people have known for a very long time

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Speaker 3: that this man is innocent and he's still on death row.

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Speaker 3: Why does it take twenty five years?

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Speaker 1: These are just a few in the chorus of powerful

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Speaker 1: voices calling on the state to fix this. Lawyers from

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Speaker 1: all sides of the political spectrum are lending their support,

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Speaker 1: along with former prosecutors and judges, as well as Alabama

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Speaker 1: churches and faith leaders like sister Helen Prajean.

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Speaker 9: Please God, with these efforts and people hearing this about

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Speaker 9: too Forrest, his life will be saved.

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Speaker 1: Even death penalty supporter Bill Baxley, Alabama's former attorney General,

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Speaker 1: has joined the fight.

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Speaker 12: I will add my voice or anything I can do,

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Speaker 12: because this is a situation that shouldn't be allowed to

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Speaker 12: exist another minute.

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Speaker 1: When Baxley reviewed to Forrest's case, he was so outraged

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Speaker 1: he wrote an op ed in The Washington Post that said,

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Speaker 1: an innocent man is trapped on Alabama's death row.

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Speaker 12: The only thing that I can see is to why

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Speaker 12: this kind of thing happened, was the victim was a

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Speaker 12: law enforcement laws.

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Speaker 1: To Forrest Johnson now has unpressed, incidented support, and it's

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Speaker 1: not just from all these people who believe he's innocent.

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Speaker 1: The current District Attorney of Jefferson County, along with the

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Speaker 1: original prosecutor who sent him to death row. Both now

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Speaker 1: say to Forrest Johnson deserves a new trial, So why

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Speaker 1: is the State of Alabama still trying to kill him?

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Speaker 1: I'm Beth Shelburne. This is ear witness, Chapter eight Bondage

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Speaker 1: to the Law. Okay, how are you I I'm good.

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Speaker 13: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I'm meeting with District Attorney Danny Carr, but not at

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Speaker 1: his office in the courthouse. We're at the barber shop

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Speaker 1: he owns in Birmingham's Insley community where he grew.

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Speaker 14: Up from the Ansley community where we are today. I'm

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Speaker 14: matriculated through the Birmingham City school system.

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Speaker 1: The barbershop is old school tile floors, posters of hairstyles

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Speaker 1: on the walls, and a sign advertising ten dollars haircuts?

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Speaker 1: Can you talk while he's buzzing? I don't normally interview

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Speaker 1: prosecutors while they're getting a haircut, but Danny Carr is

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Speaker 1: a busy man. In twenty eighteen, when he was elected

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Speaker 1: District Attorney of Jefferson County, he became the first black

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Speaker 1: man to hold the position. He now runs the same

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Speaker 1: office that argued for to Forest Johnson to be sentenced

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Speaker 1: to death for Deputy Bill Hardy's murder. But Danny Carr

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Speaker 1: wasn't part of to Forest's prosecution. He wasn't even a

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Speaker 1: lawyer yet when it happened. Danny Carr is different from

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Speaker 1: other das in a number of ways. He ran as

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Speaker 1: a change maker. He put together the first conviction review

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Speaker 1: unit in Jefferson County. The unit's job is to review

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Speaker 1: cases where the DA's office might have made some mistakes.

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Speaker 1: He's one of only three black das among the forty

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Speaker 1: two across Alabama. He grew up in a community that's

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Speaker 1: been impacted by crime and mass incarceration. His family has

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Speaker 1: also been a victim of violence. The year he was

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Speaker 1: hired as a young prosecutor, Danny's younger brother, Jaxton, was murdered.

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Speaker 1: Danny named his barbershop D and Jay in his brother's memory.

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Speaker 1: D for Danny, J for Jackston. Can you kind of

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Speaker 1: walk me through your involvement in the to Forest Johnson case?

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Speaker 1: When did you first become aware of it?

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Speaker 14: I became aware of it when I was an assistant

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Speaker 14: DA conversations about it, but I didn't know true to

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Speaker 14: the facts of it.

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Speaker 7: I just overheard different.

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Speaker 14: Conversations varying opinions about it, and then what happened.

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Speaker 1: Once Danny was elected as DA, he started hearing more

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Speaker 1: about to Forest's case as a possible wrongful conviction, and

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Speaker 1: the year after Danny was elected, to Forest's case was

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Speaker 1: back in court. This was the hearing I covered the

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Speaker 1: first time I reported on to forest case, where his

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Speaker 1: attorneys argued that Violet Ellison testified in pursuit of the

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Speaker 1: reward money and the state hid it. I saw Danny

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Speaker 1: Carr at the hearing, but he told me he wasn't

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Speaker 1: ready yet to comment on the case.

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Speaker 14: When it's that end, I didn't know, you know, who

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Speaker 14: was telling the truth of what was right what was wrong.

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Speaker 14: I just listened and it was apparent that if some

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Speaker 14: of that stuff was true, then it was concerning.

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Speaker 1: So after the hearing, Danny decided to conduct a full

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Speaker 1: review of to Forrest's conviction. For nine months, he read

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Speaker 1: through the trial transcripts as well as the documents that

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Speaker 1: prosecutors had claimed were misfiled. He was troubled by the

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Speaker 1: five thousand dollars reward payment given to Violet Ellison that

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Speaker 1: the jury didn't even know was a possibility.

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Speaker 7: Well, if that information was not disclosed then the process

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Speaker 7: was flawed, and that the process was flawed, then the

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Speaker 7: end result is not truly the end result, because to

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Speaker 7: get to the end result, the process has to be fair.

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Speaker 1: Danny also talked to people involved, including alibi witnesses, but

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Speaker 1: perhaps the most significant person, Danny Carr consulted the original prosecutor,

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Speaker 1: Jeff Wallace, the same prosecutor who asked two juries to

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Speaker 1: sentence to Forrest to death. It turns out Jeff Wallace

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Speaker 1: had his own questions about the credibility of his star witness,

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Speaker 1: Violet Ellison, going back fifteen years.

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Speaker 6: I observed something that triggered in my mind, indeed to

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Speaker 6: report this to the defense. I don't know if you

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Speaker 6: know about that or not. What did you observe after

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Speaker 6: the conviction and symbols?

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Speaker 1: Several years after to Forrest was convicted, Jeff said he

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Speaker 1: was passing through a courtroom during a trial of a

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Speaker 1: drug dealer. Jeff Wallace wasn't prosecuting the case. He just

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Speaker 1: needed to ask the bailiff a question.

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Speaker 6: And as I left the bailiff station, which of course

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Speaker 6: in the front of the courtroom, I'm walking out and

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Speaker 6: happened to notice in the spectators area on the front row,

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Speaker 6: the defendant's wife being consoled by our chief witness in

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Speaker 6: the Johnson case, in miss Ellison, that's right. In my mind,

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Speaker 6: that conduct was inconsistent with the picture that I had

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Speaker 6: of miss Ellison at the time of trial. She seemed

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Speaker 6: to me to be only a mother trying to do

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Speaker 6: the best thing for her daughter, and happened to overhear

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Speaker 6: a telephone conversation, and that record that the notes that

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Speaker 6: she made of that telephone conversation became important in the

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Speaker 6: trial of mister Johnson, as you know, So her credibility

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Speaker 6: as the citizen she was, I think was important because

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Speaker 6: she was the case. She is the case.

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Speaker 1: To be clear, I'm not sure what consoling a suspected

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Speaker 1: drug dealer's wife has to do with Violet Ellison's credibility

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Speaker 1: into Forrest's case, but Jeff said it left him with

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Speaker 1: an unsettling impression about his star witness, a realization that

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Speaker 1: there were things about her he didn't know.

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Speaker 6: So seeing her being so close to the wife of

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Speaker 6: a man that everybody knew was a major drug dealer

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Speaker 6: disturbed to that image in my mind, I thought, well,

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Speaker 6: I'm going to report that to the other to the

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Speaker 6: defense and he did.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand and seven, Jeff Wallace talked to to

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Speaker 1: Forest's legal team about what he saw. They looked into

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Speaker 1: the information, but so far it hasn't led to any

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Speaker 1: new legal claims for to Forest. Fast forward thirteen years

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Speaker 1: and Danny Carr calls on Jeff Wallace to talk about

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Speaker 1: the conviction of to Forest Johnson. Jeff shares his concerns

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Speaker 1: about Violet Ellison's credibility, and then he does something that

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Speaker 1: makes a major impression on Danny. Jeff Wallace says he

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Speaker 1: believes to Forest should be granted a new trial. This

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Speaker 1: incredible development pushes Danny to take public action.

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Speaker 14: Your job is not to get convictions. Your job is

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Speaker 14: to seek the truth.

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Speaker 1: But Danny has one more important call to make to

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Speaker 1: Deputy Bill Hardy's family. He braces himself, it's never easy

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Speaker 1: for a prosecutor to talk to a victim's family about

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Speaker 1: unsettling the conviction and their loved one's murder. But he

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Speaker 1: picks up the phone and calls Deputy Hardy's widow, Patricia

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Speaker 1: Dianne Hardy.

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Speaker 14: And I called her. She said, look, she said, I

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Speaker 14: know your mom. I know you, Bennoying. Since she was

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Speaker 14: a little boy. She said, you know, I trust you,

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Speaker 14: and whatever decision you make, I'm fine with it. But

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Speaker 14: I trust you and you can't get any better. And

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Speaker 14: that's what you want from people.

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Speaker 7: Period.

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Speaker 1: And then Danny Carr does something extraordinary, something that almost

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Speaker 1: never happens. He files a brief with the Jefferson County Court,

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Speaker 1: writing that his duty to seek justice requires intervention in

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Speaker 1: the case of to Forest Johnson. He asks Judge Pullyam

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Speaker 1: to throw out to Forrest's conviction and order a new trial,

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Speaker 1: and he includes that the original prosecutor, Jeff Wallace, supports

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Speaker 1: this call for a new trial. Of all the capital

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Speaker 1: murder cases that you've looked at, you've tried, you've been

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Speaker 1: familiar with, as DA, how do you see this case?

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Speaker 1: How would you describe it in the context of all

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Speaker 1: the cases you've seen.

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Speaker 7: I think it's the worst case.

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Speaker 1: I spoke with Jeff Wallace about his support for a

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Speaker 1: new trial. I think you joining the district attorney is

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Speaker 1: a powerful statement from a former prosecutor in a capital case.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember, in my reporting of over twenty years,

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Speaker 1: ever seeing that or hearing about it.

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Speaker 6: Oh, I'm sure I'm not the first.

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Speaker 1: Jeff seemed to want to downplay the significance of his

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Speaker 1: support for a new trial. But this this is seriously rare.

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Speaker 1: I looked for other cases like this and reached out

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Speaker 1: to experts who study wrongful convictions. Nobody could remember a

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Speaker 1: death penalty case in any state where the original trial

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Speaker 1: prosecutor called for a new trial. I interviewed Jeff Wallace

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Speaker 1: three different times, with four hours of on the record conversations.

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Speaker 1: Jeff was accessible and generous with his time, but he

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Speaker 1: was also careful with his words.

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Speaker 6: I still am personally satisfied that the evidence showed to

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Speaker 6: Fort Johnson to be yilty. Of course, my opinion is

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Speaker 6: based in a large part on the testimony of the

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Speaker 6: Violet Ellison that I saw at trial. But there's a

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Speaker 6: in my opinion, there's a reason to look at it again.

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Speaker 1: This is what I mean by careful. He says the

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Speaker 1: evidence at trial showed to Forrest to be guilty based

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Speaker 1: on Violet Ellison's testimony, but he also says the concern

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Speaker 1: he had about Violet Ellison's credibility is why he supports

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Speaker 1: the call for a new trial. After my first conversation

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Speaker 1: with Jeff Wallace in twenty twenty one. I did a

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Speaker 1: lot more investigating into Violet Ellison. I asked to speak

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Speaker 1: with Jeff again because I wanted to share everything.

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Speaker 13: That I learned.

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Speaker 1: We also found that, in addition to being a witness

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Speaker 1: in this case, Violet Ellison has been a witness in

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Speaker 1: four other criminal cases in Jefferson County after Johnson Couch, Before,

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Speaker 1: during and after I tell Jeff about the other cases

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Speaker 1: where Violet Ellison was a witness for the state, and

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Speaker 1: that the defense accused her of lying to police and

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Speaker 1: under oath. Was politely, but what I really want is

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Speaker 1: for Jeff Wallace to hear some clips of what people

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Speaker 1: are saying about Violet Ellison, the star witness he put

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Speaker 1: on the stand, the same witness he now has questions.

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Speaker 3: About, do you.

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Speaker 13: Have any interest in listening to what we found? You don't?

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Speaker 13: I find that like astonishing? I don't know. Can you please?

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Speaker 13: Can you explain why you don't want to hear what

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Speaker 13: we found.

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Speaker 6: I'm not the prosecuting attorney in the case, or for

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Speaker 6: that matter, of the defending attorney. Of course I couldn't be.

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Speaker 13: But yeah, but Jeff, I mean, you tried this case

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Speaker 13: and you.

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Speaker 1: Asked the jury to sentence him to death and he's

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Speaker 1: on death row.

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Speaker 6: That was the state of the evidence when I was

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Speaker 6: standing on the court run.

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Speaker 1: The evidence hasn't changed in your mind after what we've

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Speaker 1: told you.

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Speaker 6: No, I think evidence has change, but that's no longer

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Speaker 6: my responsibility.

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Speaker 1: In a way, He's right. The responsibility of all death

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Speaker 1: row cases after conviction falls to Alabama's Attorney General, an

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Speaker 1: elected position that represents the entire state, unlike district attorneys

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Speaker 1: who represent a single county. The current Attorney General in

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Speaker 1: Alabama is Steve Marshall. He could listen to Danny Carr

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Speaker 1: and Jeff Wallace and allow a new trial for to

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Speaker 1: Forrest Johnson, but instead, the AG's office calls this a

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Speaker 1: subjective opinion that does not raise an issue of extraordinary

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Speaker 1: public importance or any compelling circumstances. Marshall's office is still

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Speaker 1: actively and aggressively fighting to Forest's appeals and seeking his execution.

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Speaker 1: These conflicting positions make me think of those big metal

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Speaker 1: grain silos that you see in the Midwest, with each

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Speaker 1: party in our criminal justice system in its own silo,

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Speaker 1: isolated from the opposing view, trapped in their official position.

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Speaker 1: I talk with Jeff Wallace about this dynamic. It does

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Speaker 1: seem like there are a lot of silos that people

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Speaker 1: are in in the system, and.

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Speaker 13: They stay in those silos. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 12: It does.

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Speaker 6: And if a silo is a thing that you cannot

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Speaker 6: climb out of, then that's where I am. I've told

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Speaker 6: you what I think. If it were legal and it

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Speaker 6: were presented to me, Uh, would you or would you

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Speaker 6: not order a new trial? Mister Wallace, I would sign

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Speaker 6: it today in order a new trial. But the thing

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Speaker 6: you're calling a silo, my silo is a retired former

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Speaker 6: prosecutor who happened to have been in charge of this

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Speaker 6: case at one time.

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Speaker 13: So why can't you climb out of the silo?

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Speaker 6: What silo would I climb into? I can't be a

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Speaker 6: repellate judge. I can't be the defendant's attorney. I can't

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Speaker 6: be a juror, can't be the defendant.

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Speaker 1: What if we just all climb out of our silos

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Speaker 1: and nobody's in a silo.

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Speaker 13: Anymore, If we're all just kind of out in the open.

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Speaker 6: Well, the law has set up these silos and the

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Speaker 6: law is still in effect.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's this quote on the outside of the Jefferson

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Speaker 1: County courthouse.

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Speaker 6: That we are in bondage to the law in order

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Speaker 6: that we may be free.

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Speaker 13: That's it.

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Speaker 1: We are in bondage to the law in order that

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Speaker 1: we may be free. It's a quote from Roman philosopher Cicero.

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Speaker 13: Why do we have to be in bondage to something

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Speaker 13: to be free?

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Speaker 6: Either we have laws or we don't. Which way do

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Speaker 6: you want it?

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Speaker 1: I guess one thing that we've been thinking about is like,

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Speaker 1: what is the cost of that bondage? And is it

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Speaker 1: that sometimes you end up with situations like this?

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Speaker 6: I sure hope not. But the law is the law.

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Speaker 6: No one want to present me that piece of paper

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Speaker 6: and ask me whether I would order a new trial.

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Speaker 6: I'm in bondage to the law.

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Speaker 1: You may see Wallace's support for a new trial as

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Speaker 1: a half measure. He could call the case an injustice

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Speaker 1: and take more accountability for his role into Forrest's conviction.

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Speaker 1: But a trial prosecutor saying anything that calls a conviction

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Speaker 1: into question is exceptional. There's no incentive for Jeff Wallace

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Speaker 1: to say a word, no framework for prosecutors to voice

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Speaker 1: doubt or space for regrets to count, and yet Jeff

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Speaker 1: Wallace still chose to speak up when he didn't have

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Speaker 1: to say anything at all. In this project, we tried

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Speaker 1: to answer the question of how an innocent man ended

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Speaker 1: up on death row. We laid bare an investigation that

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Speaker 1: was rushed to conclusion by tunnel vision and pressure to

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Speaker 1: convict someone, anyone, for the murder of a deputy sheriff.

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Speaker 1: This case shows us how young, marginalized people like Yolanda

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Speaker 1: Chambers can be exploited, and how money is wielded as

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Speaker 1: an incentive for vulnerable people to become ensnared with law enforcement.

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Speaker 1: It also demonstrates the terrible consequences for people who can't

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Speaker 1: afford to pay for the best criminal defense. So far,

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Speaker 1: the courts have said there was nothing illegal about what

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Speaker 1: the state did, presenting five different theories about who committed

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Speaker 1: the murder, and paying the key witness behind closed doors,

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Speaker 1: only admitting to this payment seventeen years later. This is

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Speaker 1: how our system works. According to the courts that have

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Speaker 1: examined to forrest Johnson's conviction, it's not broken. It's working

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Speaker 1: exactly as designed.

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Speaker 12: They say that you've presumed innocent until proven guilty, and

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Speaker 12: that is the law.

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Speaker 1: Former Attorney General Bill Baxley.

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Speaker 12: But deep down people don't believe somebody is innocent until

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Speaker 12: they've proven guilty beyond regional doubt. They think that they

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Speaker 12: had to do something or they wouldn't have been arrested,

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Speaker 12: and wouldn't have been indicted, and wouldn't be there.

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Speaker 11: Not only do they presume people guilty, but they look

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Speaker 11: at these people as expendable.

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Speaker 1: Richard Jaffey, who represented Ardregis Ford, when.

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Speaker 11: The system failed to Forrest Johnson, it betrayed all of us.

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Speaker 11: To Forest Johnson is as innocent as anyone could possibly be.

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Speaker 11: Deputy Hardy would never want the wrong person to be

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Speaker 11: convicted for his murder.

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Speaker 1: After Jeffy's client, Ordregus Ford was acquitted, he lived a

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Speaker 1: quiet life, mostly in Atlanta. His mother, Joyce Ford said

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Speaker 1: to Forrest's conviction wade on her son.

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Speaker 9: He never talked about it. He was strong, He never

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00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 9: talked about it. But you know, you know he would

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Speaker 9: get quiet at times. He will be rolling in the wheelchairs,

364
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Speaker 9: go sit quiet with his head. Now, you know, it

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00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 9: took him a while to try to overcome it. You

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Speaker 9: never overcome it, but so you know he had his days,

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Speaker 9: you know, through it all, through the grace of God.

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Speaker 7: It too.

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Speaker 9: It was a long hard bell, but I would never

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Speaker 9: wish that on a mother.

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00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: Ardregis died from health issues in twenty twenty one. His mom,

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Speaker 1: Joyce Ford, died less than a year after we recorded

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Speaker 1: this interview. I've been reporting onto Forest's case since twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 1: I've interviewed dozens of people, but the one person I'd

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Speaker 1: still most like to talk to is the very person

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Speaker 1: I can't reach. Alabama's prison system doesn't allow people on

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Speaker 1: death row to talk to journalists to Forest's family has

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Speaker 1: shared dozens of digital photos with me that I've kept

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00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: in a folder on my laptop. There's to Forrest as

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Speaker 1: a baby wearing a tiny suit, as a skinny kid

381
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Speaker 1: wearing a bowtie, and so many photos from visits at

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Speaker 1: Holman Prison with his arms around his family. And I

383
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 1: know the closest I can get to him is through

384
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Speaker 1: the people he loves the most, his kids.

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Speaker 13: Podcast.

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Speaker 1: And I've been, you know, writing about your dad's case

387
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: for about two years now. So I'm so happy to

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Speaker 1: finally see y'all in me y'all and you.

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Speaker 13: Get to hang out with you, especially.

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Speaker 1: In October of twenty twenty one, I asked to Forest

391
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Speaker 1: kids if we could all get together and talk. So

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00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: we meet up on a Saturday afternoon at his oldest daughter,

393
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Speaker 1: Shanee Pool's place. It's a light filled condo in downtown Birmingham.

394
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: Her golden doodle named Banks meanders around wagging his tail

395
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Speaker 1: at everyone, and his kids immediately start to share memories

396
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Speaker 1: of their dad.

397
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Speaker 8: I remember going and real Eliza how short he was,

398
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Speaker 8: though he's so short when we took a picture on

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Speaker 8: side of each other.

400
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 2: He's so short, you like tower omer daddy, and I'm

401
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 2: his same height. I'm Sanee Pool. I am the oldest

402
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 2: daughter of the Forest.

403
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 1: Shane has his smile.

404
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 8: I'm Maurice Myers and I'm the fourth oldest that's far.

405
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: His son Maurice Myers has his eyes and nose.

406
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 5: Tremayan Pierre, I'm the oldest.

407
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: Cub, his oldest child, Tremaine Perry has his voice and laugh.

408
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 15: And I'm a Kirio Lalla in him the baby cub.

409
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: And Akiria, who goes by Muffin, his youngest looks like

410
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: she could be a twin to t Forest and his

411
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: younger years. To Forest has one other son named Robbie Foster,

412
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Speaker 1: but he was unable to join us for this gathering

413
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: because he was living in Colorado at the time. He

414
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: also looks like his father's twin. An inside joke is

415
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: these siblings all share a common attribute from their dad.

416
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Speaker 7: My head.

417
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 5: Man, we all got the ease big heads.

418
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Speaker 13: If you haven't known, it's forehead.

419
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 5: That's what's really big, is the forehead. He blessed us

420
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Speaker 5: all that. That's why I grew my hair. So I

421
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 5: know I was the oldest old I saw maybe a

422
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 5: lot more than they did, you know what I mean,

423
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 5: But it I knew what was going on, like when

424
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 5: I stopped seeing 'em. You know what I'm saying, Cause

425
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 5: they told me, like.

426
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 13: Right off the bat, So how old were you when

427
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 13: he brub about.

428
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 5: Six or seven?

429
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,959
Speaker 1: Okay, this is Tremaine, the oldest cub.

430
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 5: I was getting ready to to ask my mom to

431
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 5: take me to my pop's house, like I wanna go,

432
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 5: s I wanna go with my daddy this weekend. And

433
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 5: she's like, you won't be able to go this weekend

434
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 5: cause you won't He not gonna be there, So like,

435
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 5: what you mean where he at? I wait on to

436
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 5: come back. She's like, nah, it might be a matter

437
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 5: before he come back. And that's when I end up

438
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 5: calling my grandma and she just let me know what

439
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 5: was going on just right then, and that, like, that

440
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 5: kid kind of killed my spirits, you know what I'm saying.

441
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 5: I don't. I'm thinking like, if he ain't doing nothing wrong,

442
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 5: then while he gone, I could never get an answer

443
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 5: for that. Nobody could ever answer that, you know what

444
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 5: I'm saying. So just knowing that this man is set

445
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 5: behind balls twenty plus years for something that he didn't do,

446
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 5: like that's heartbreaking.

447
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 3: Yeah.

448
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, think you have to think about how life would

449
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 5: be if it hadn't happen, if things could be reversed.

450
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 5: You think about a lot of stuff, but you can

451
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 5: never get that, you know what I'm saying.

452
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: Shaney also remembers trying to put the pieces together about

453
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: why she had to go to the prison to see

454
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: her dad.

455
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 2: So I'm home with my mom and then I go

456
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 2: visit my dad. But I didn't realize that that wasn't

457
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 2: normal until we to grade school and I see children

458
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 2: with their two parents home, and so now I'm like, Okay,

459
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 2: this is something that's not This is not adding up,

460
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 2: something that's not right, So you know, help me understand

461
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:12,959
Speaker 2: what's happening. And then it's like, Okay, well he's away,

462
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 2: but he's innocent. So what is innocent mean.

463
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 3: I'm a kid.

464
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 2: I don't understand what that means. He's there for something

465
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 2: that he didn't do. Okay, well, why can't he just

466
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 2: come home then? And so then I begin to get

467
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 2: frustrated with him because I'm like, Okay, well, if you

468
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 2: didn't do it, then you could just come home. But

469
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 2: clearly it doesn't work that way. And then as I

470
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 2: got older.

471
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: Even though their father wasn't at home, to Forrest's kids

472
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: didn't stop seeing him. They would get in the car

473
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: with their grandmother, Donna, to Forrest's mother to make the

474
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: two hundred and ten mile drive from Birmingham to Holman Prison,

475
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: three hours each way.

476
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 15: I just remember I always riding there's all right, oh my,

477
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 15: And I was so young and I.

478
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 5: Was like, oh my, this is the mob is It's

479
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 5: almost like you're driving the floorda going down there is

480
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 5: in the middle of nowhere, is no really no roll

481
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 5: like the leads anywhell out there.

482
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, we took those trips in Alabama. Visits with men

483
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 1: on death row are done in the visiting yard the

484
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,879
Speaker 1: same area to Forrest met with his attorney tie. It's

485
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,879
Speaker 1: called the yard, but it's indoors, like a big cafeteria

486
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: lined with vending machines and Grandma.

487
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 2: So what I remember is quarters. Grandma used to have

488
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 2: a sage.

489
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 13: The freezer bags.

490
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 5: Full of quarters of nickels, all the change we can get.

491
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: But before they got into the prison to see their

492
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 1: dad with the big bag of quarters so everyone could

493
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,879
Speaker 1: get their favorite snacks and candy from the prison yard

494
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: vending machines to Forest's kids had to go through prison

495
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: security where guards searched them and patted them down.

496
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 2: Look at thinking back on them up And I didn't

497
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 2: really think about this until now, just kind of how

498
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 2: violating it kind of was with them because they had

499
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 2: to search us like the same way.

500
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 15: Yeah, and we were children basically touching I love you,

501
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,959
Speaker 15: And I was just like, yeah, this is a little weird.

502
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 15: I'm not comfortable with your touching me. I mean, I'm

503
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 15: just a kid. I'm not bringing nothing in here. So

504
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 15: it was just real violating. I was like, I really

505
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 15: don't want to come back, but I want to so

506
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 15: I can see my dad. I just don't want you

507
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 15: to touch me.

508
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 2: But and we couldn't, you know, touch him whenever we

509
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 2: were in there. So of course, you know, you want

510
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 2: to sit on your dad's lap, you want to lay

511
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 2: on them and hug on them, and you can't do that.

512
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 2: You have to keep your distance from each other. And

513
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 2: like Tremaine said, there's never enough time. It always seems

514
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,919
Speaker 2: like it's just we just got here and you gotta

515
00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 2: turn back around and get on the road trip again.

516
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: The visits were just a few hours once a month

517
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: at most, but it's where and how they got to

518
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 1: know their father. Their relationships with their father are marked

519
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 1: by both his absence and his presence. They admire his strength,

520
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: the way he loves to hear about their lives when

521
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 1: they talk on the phone, and how he never makes

522
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: them feel like their problems are small when.

523
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:34,839
Speaker 2: He calls you and you just want to talk about

524
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 2: the good things. And he's lived these life tuessas ayes,

525
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 2: So now what's really going on? Like I can hear

526
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 2: it in your voice, okay, princess. So I'm not right,

527
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 2: And I'd never like to tell him anything bad because

528
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 2: he's just there's nothing that he could do. But he's like,

529
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 2: this is my way of being a father to you.

530
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 2: This is how I can parent you to allow me

531
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,879
Speaker 2: to do that, and then you feel so much better

532
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 2: after you talk to him about it.

533
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 13: Yes, he's gonna make you laugh. He's gonna make you laugh.

534
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 15: I'd be like, Okay, I'm not mad anymore.

535
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:06,800
Speaker 13: Yeah, thank you.

536
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 2: Right, And then it's hard to be mad, you know,

537
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 2: it's hard to be angry or mad or kind of

538
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 2: self sulk.

539
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 1: Because and you think about his situation.

540
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 2: Right, and he always asks, so what you eat? I

541
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 2: never want to tell him what I ate for dinner, never,

542
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,439
Speaker 2: because it's I hate telling.

543
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 5: I know he can't eat the same, you know what

544
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:27,479
Speaker 5: I'm saying.

545
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 13: Yeah, but he wants to know what you made.

546
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 2: He wants to know, or he wants like what we

547
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 2: did today, Like if you if you would be on

548
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 2: the phone with Tremado Maurice. Yeah, I talked to Tremado Maurice,

549
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 2: uh the other day and they were out somewhere, but

550
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 2: he won't say they were. He like we were so

551
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 2: Like he's living through my brothers, like whatever they do,

552
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:46,439
Speaker 2: he thinks like he's out with them.

553
00:37:46,760 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 16: Yeah, we're human bodies like we are have been affected.

554
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 2: These are men that missed out on their father raising them.

555
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 2: These he's missed the birth of multiple grandchildren. He's miss

556
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 2: milestones us completing college and getting our first big girl

557
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,879
Speaker 2: jobs and purchasing our first homes, Like these are really

558
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 2: important things that he has missed out on. And so

559
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 2: you have space and you have time between all of

560
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 2: us that we literally cannot get back. Like there's nothing

561
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 2: that we could do about it, and so at the

562
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 2: least that you could do is take uh, be accountable

563
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 2: for what was done. And I think that that's all

564
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 2: we're asking for at this point. We're not trying to

565
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,439
Speaker 2: point the finger at anybody. We just we want true

566
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 2: justice to be served and we just want him to

567
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 2: come home and for there to be some type of

568
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 2: accountability held. And it's frustrating, it's disheartening, but it's like, well,

569
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,919
Speaker 2: we just gotta keep fighting because we gotta fight for daddy.

570
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,399
Speaker 2: We gotta fight to get Daddy home. I think we've

571
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 2: bypassed a point of pointing the finger, and and you know,

572
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 2: we're still hurting, We're still angry, we're still confused. I

573
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 2: have said, we have a lot of emotions, but we

574
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:07,760
Speaker 2: just want him to come home.

575
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:15,919
Speaker 1: Why is to Forest Johnson still on Alabama's death row?

576
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: Why is he still locked in a cell when so

577
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 1: many people, including the prosecutor who argued to put him there,

578
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 1: are calling for a new trial. In early October twenty

579
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,760
Speaker 1: twenty three, the United States Supreme Court announced it would

580
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: not review to Forrest Johnson's case, but to Forest's legal

581
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 1: team continues to fight for him. They have appeals pending

582
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 1: in both state and federal courts. This is where we

583
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 1: find ourselves unable to tell you how this story ends.

584
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: I plan to stay here with de Forest, his family,

585
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: his children, his lawyers, and everyone else who believes in

586
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 1: him will continue to hold him in the light of truth.

587
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:16,280
Speaker 11: This is a free call from before an incarcerated individual

588
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 11: at Alabama Department of Corrections.

589
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 13: That call is not private.

590
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,760
Speaker 1: It will be recorded and maybe minderg you may start

591
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 1: the conversation.

592
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 2: Now, Hey Daddy, Hey President, Hi, what you doing.

593
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 8: I'm good?

594
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 10: How was your day?

595
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 2: It was good?

596
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:56,240
Speaker 4: Long today. Still trying to get used to.

597
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: To Forrest calls his family from prison whenever he can,

598
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 1: But his oldest daughter, Shaney, also keeps his cards and

599
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: letters in a k Swiss shoe box under her bed.

600
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 2: If I had to describe this card, there is a

601
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,240
Speaker 2: beehive on the front with a few bees buzzing around,

602
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 2: and it's stated January fifth, two thousand and three.

603
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 1: Like all the people who love to Forrest Johnson, his

604
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:27,280
Speaker 1: five kids and fifteen grandkids, his mother Donna, his aunts, uncles,

605
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:31,879
Speaker 1: and cousins, they read the words he sent them over

606
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: the years when they need to hold him close.

607
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 2: It reads, I love you and can't wait to see

608
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 2: you and hold you in my arms again. You underlined

609
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 2: are the reason Daddy has a spirit to get up

610
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 2: every day and has hope that there would be a

611
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:56,320
Speaker 2: better day up ahead for me. And he says, Shaney,

612
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 2: Daddy wants you to be a good young lady and

613
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 2: do what your mother asks of you. I love you

614
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 2: and I hope to see you again real soon.

615
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:08,439
Speaker 13: Be good?

616
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 10: All right.

617
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 1: To learn more about the fight to free to Forest Johnson,

618
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 1: sign up for updates and learn how you can help,

619
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 1: visit the website created by Greater Birmingham Ministries for to Forest.

620
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:42,760
Speaker 1: It's to Forest Johnson dot com. And a special thanks

621
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: to the family of to Forest Johnson who have generously

622
00:42:46,680 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: shared so much for this series. Ear Witness is a

623
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:12,720
Speaker 1: production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company.

624
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: Number one executive Producers are Jason Flom, Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wardis,

625
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: and me Beth Shelburn. The investigative reporting for this series

626
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 1: was done by Me and Mara McNamara. Producers are MARAA. McNamara,

627
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: Hannah Bial and Jackie Polly. Kara Kornhaber is our senior producer.

628
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:39,919
Speaker 1: Britt Spangler is our sound designer. Additional story editing from

629
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: Marie Sutton, fact checkhelp from Catherine Newhan, and special thanks

630
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:50,720
Speaker 1: to to Forrest Johnson's legal defense team. You can follow

631
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: the show on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and Twitter at Lava

632
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 1: for Good. To see behind the scenes content from our investigation,

633
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: visit Lava for Good dot com slash ear Witness