WEBVTT - Cynicism is Exhausting. There’s an Alternative. 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:15.396 Pushkin. 0:00:29.916 --> 0:00:33.236 Cynics might see injustice just like the rest of us do, 0:00:33.676 --> 0:00:37.116 but cynicism suggests that there's nothing really to be done 0:00:37.116 --> 0:00:41.796 about it, because if a broken system reflects our broken nature, 0:00:42.116 --> 0:00:44.756 if the worst of us is who we really are, 0:00:45.276 --> 0:00:48.996 then any change, any attempt to improve the world or 0:00:49.036 --> 0:00:52.636 the systems that we live in, is doomed from the outset. 0:00:54.076 --> 0:00:58.636 Psychologist Jimil Zaki studies the science of human connection, and 0:00:58.676 --> 0:01:02.596 he believes that cynicism is holding us back. It's not 0:01:02.636 --> 0:01:07.556 just harmful for health, it's also misguided. The alternative, he says, 0:01:07.836 --> 0:01:10.476 is a mindset called full skepticism. 0:01:10.836 --> 0:01:13.316 And the reason that I call it hopeful skepticism is 0:01:13.396 --> 0:01:17.956 because our default tends to be negative. When you adopt 0:01:18.316 --> 0:01:22.356 a skeptical perspective, you do tend to move towards a 0:01:22.396 --> 0:01:26.876 slightly more hopeful and positive place because you're correcting for 0:01:27.036 --> 0:01:29.636 the biases that we already have. People always say, what 0:01:29.676 --> 0:01:31.556 you want me to put on a pair of rose 0:01:31.596 --> 0:01:34.996 colored glasses, and I say, no, you're probably already wearing 0:01:35.036 --> 0:01:38.196 a pair of glasses that's like mud colored, So just 0:01:38.316 --> 0:01:41.316 take those off right, so that I'm actually not asking 0:01:41.316 --> 0:01:44.516 people to pay less attention, but to pay more attention 0:01:45.036 --> 0:01:50.396 to the folks around them. 0:01:50.516 --> 0:01:54.396 On today's episode, the Life Changing Benefits of being a 0:01:54.436 --> 0:01:58.796 Hopeful Skeptic, I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight 0:01:58.876 --> 0:02:01.596 change of plans, a show about who we are and 0:02:01.636 --> 0:02:09.396 who we become in the face of a big change. 0:02:17.756 --> 0:02:21.596 Jamil Zaki is a professor of psychology at Stanford University 0:02:22.036 --> 0:02:25.876 and the director of the Stanford Social Neuroscience Lab. You 0:02:25.956 --> 0:02:28.756 might remember him from his first appearance on this show, 0:02:29.076 --> 0:02:32.636 when he talked about the power of empathy. Jamil has 0:02:32.676 --> 0:02:35.596 spent the last twenty years studying the sunny side of 0:02:35.676 --> 0:02:40.876 human nature, things like compassion, kindness, and togetherness. He says 0:02:40.916 --> 0:02:44.116 he's widely known as a kind of ambassador for humanity's 0:02:44.156 --> 0:02:48.076 better angels. But in his new book Hope for Cynics, 0:02:48.196 --> 0:02:52.556 The Surprising Science of Human Goodness, Jamil talks about struggling 0:02:52.556 --> 0:02:55.916 with this image. He begins the book with a confession. 0:02:56.836 --> 0:03:00.356 This entire time that I've been advocating for and talking 0:03:00.396 --> 0:03:04.956 about human goodness, I myself have been pretty cynical. I 0:03:05.116 --> 0:03:09.036 tend to suspect people and look at the worst sides 0:03:09.236 --> 0:03:14.156 of lots of situations, becoming anxious, neurotic pessimistic, and I 0:03:14.156 --> 0:03:18.236 feel like that split between my outer persona on the 0:03:18.276 --> 0:03:22.476 one hand and my deepest experiences on the other has 0:03:22.516 --> 0:03:24.316 been a problem for me and did something that I 0:03:24.356 --> 0:03:27.036 wanted to bring out into the light and address. 0:03:27.516 --> 0:03:29.916 I'm curious if you can tell me a bit more 0:03:29.956 --> 0:03:33.316 about that disconnect. Do you remember a story in which 0:03:33.356 --> 0:03:36.436 you met with someone who were giving a group council 0:03:36.756 --> 0:03:39.236 and then you went home and you were kind of like, oh, darn, 0:03:39.036 --> 0:03:42.116 I don't actually think I'm buying what I'm saying. I'm 0:03:42.156 --> 0:03:45.156 not internalizing this, oh one hundred percent. 0:03:45.556 --> 0:03:49.356 One of the most intense moments came after TED, the 0:03:49.436 --> 0:03:53.636 global conference that has a lot of great speakers, asked 0:03:53.636 --> 0:03:57.156 me to come and give a talk on optimism as 0:03:57.196 --> 0:04:00.476 a path to positive social change. I pulled out my 0:04:00.516 --> 0:04:02.476 notebook and I said, I'm going to start drafting this 0:04:02.596 --> 0:04:05.916 talk on the first I think Wednesday of the year 0:04:06.436 --> 0:04:09.716 in twenty twenty one, which happened to be January. And 0:04:09.796 --> 0:04:13.836 I remember I started drafting this talk about how you 0:04:13.876 --> 0:04:17.276 know optimism is so important, and my friend texted me 0:04:17.316 --> 0:04:19.596 and said, you have to turn on the television right now, 0:04:19.716 --> 0:04:22.116 and I saw what the rest of the nation and 0:04:22.196 --> 0:04:26.156 world saw with the insurrection at the Capitol Building, and 0:04:27.236 --> 0:04:32.356 I thought, to myself, am I full of shit? Is 0:04:32.396 --> 0:04:36.236 everything that I talk about a lie? I know it's 0:04:36.316 --> 0:04:40.156 not because I do the research, I see the data, 0:04:40.556 --> 0:04:44.356 but there's sometimes such a huge distance between your head 0:04:44.356 --> 0:04:46.876 and your heart, you know, And like I just couldn't 0:04:46.916 --> 0:04:50.956 believe deeper inside myself that people were good as I 0:04:51.036 --> 0:04:52.996 watched this tragedy unfold. 0:04:53.476 --> 0:04:57.836 Yeah, what were the personal costs to being cynical for you? 0:04:57.956 --> 0:04:59.636 I'm curious to hear how that played out. 0:05:00.596 --> 0:05:05.876 During that lockdown period late twenty twenty early twenty twenty one, 0:05:06.476 --> 0:05:10.116 I really probably had the rock bottom of my own 0:05:10.156 --> 0:05:14.036 personal cynicism, and it was extremely apparent to me that 0:05:14.276 --> 0:05:16.556 entire time that it was not helping me, that it 0:05:16.636 --> 0:05:22.396 was hurting me emotionally, it was diminishing my relationships. It 0:05:22.476 --> 0:05:26.596 was it felt like a form of social depression, right, 0:05:26.756 --> 0:05:30.916 depression kind of casts this gray light over everything, and 0:05:31.076 --> 0:05:34.796 especially over your sense of self and the world at large. 0:05:34.996 --> 0:05:38.596 I felt like cynicism was doing that for my vision 0:05:38.636 --> 0:05:41.596 of other people, you know, sort of it made it 0:05:41.756 --> 0:05:44.676 extremely difficult for me to see people in a positive light. 0:05:44.716 --> 0:05:48.996 And I started exploring the science of cynicism because I 0:05:49.036 --> 0:05:52.236 wanted to figure out what was happening inside me and 0:05:52.316 --> 0:05:55.516 whether there was anything that I could do for myself 0:05:55.676 --> 0:05:59.076 to dig out of this trap that I felt my 0:05:59.236 --> 0:06:02.876 mind was in. And it's only then that I discovered 0:06:03.236 --> 0:06:08.596 how common this sense of hopelessness, exhaustion, and cynicism really is, 0:06:08.876 --> 0:06:10.956 which first of all made me feel better because I 0:06:10.996 --> 0:06:12.436 was like, well, at least I'm not alone, but then 0:06:12.516 --> 0:06:14.996 made me feel as I learned more and more about 0:06:15.356 --> 0:06:18.076 how harmful cynicism is, and not only how harmful, but 0:06:18.196 --> 0:06:22.716 how unnecessary it is, I thought, Wow, this could actually 0:06:22.916 --> 0:06:25.636 help a lot of people who feel like I. 0:06:25.756 --> 0:06:28.996 Do you know when you say the word cynicism, Jimille, 0:06:29.076 --> 0:06:34.076 so many images come to mind. What is your definition 0:06:34.116 --> 0:06:34.796 of cynicism? 0:06:35.476 --> 0:06:39.996 Cynicism can be defined as a theory about the world 0:06:40.676 --> 0:06:44.156 and about people in particular. It's the theory that humanity 0:06:44.436 --> 0:06:49.196 in general is selfish, greedy, and dishonest. Okay, that is 0:06:49.236 --> 0:06:51.876 not to say that a cynic will doubt that anybody 0:06:51.956 --> 0:06:54.996 will ever do a kind thing in their lives. They 0:06:55.076 --> 0:06:58.436 just think that at our core, who we are is 0:06:58.516 --> 0:07:02.316 defined by self interest. Now, if you have that theory, 0:07:02.436 --> 0:07:04.996 you might notice a bunch of things happening inside you 0:07:05.236 --> 0:07:07.996 and a bunch of things in your behavior. Right first, 0:07:08.396 --> 0:07:12.156 you might find self suspecting other people's motives, even when 0:07:12.156 --> 0:07:15.396 they do things that appear positive. You might find yourself 0:07:15.516 --> 0:07:18.716 very quick to judge others based on the harms that 0:07:18.756 --> 0:07:21.396 they produce, not on the best things that they do. 0:07:22.316 --> 0:07:24.316 It might also change what you do and what you 0:07:24.396 --> 0:07:27.876 don't do. One place that we see cynicism play out 0:07:27.996 --> 0:07:31.996 very strongly is in trust. Trust is our willingness to 0:07:32.076 --> 0:07:35.396 be vulnerable to other people on the belief that they 0:07:35.396 --> 0:07:39.596 have our best interest in mind. Loaning somebody money, letting 0:07:39.596 --> 0:07:44.156 somebody babysit your kid, giving somebody more responsibility at work, 0:07:44.196 --> 0:07:46.436 on your team. All of these are types of trust, 0:07:46.476 --> 0:07:50.756 and trust is a social gamble. We can't know what 0:07:50.796 --> 0:07:53.356 the outcome will be. We need to count on other people. 0:07:53.356 --> 0:07:57.076 And if you're cynical, that gamble feels like it's for suckers. 0:07:57.156 --> 0:08:00.036 It feels like a losing bet. So cynics tend to 0:08:00.036 --> 0:08:02.356 trust a lot less often than non cynics. 0:08:03.196 --> 0:08:06.636 You have a very people focused definition. So is that 0:08:06.716 --> 0:08:10.156 intentional and does it exclude those who just think irrespective 0:08:10.156 --> 0:08:12.836 of a human involvement you know, an asteroid might hit us, Like, 0:08:13.036 --> 0:08:14.436 how do you bucket those folks? 0:08:15.196 --> 0:08:19.276 Yeah? I think that what you're describing is pessimism, the 0:08:19.316 --> 0:08:21.956 idea that the future will unfold in ways that we 0:08:22.036 --> 0:08:25.396 don't want. And I think that pessimism and cynicism are 0:08:25.556 --> 0:08:28.516 quite related because a lot of what we expect about 0:08:28.516 --> 0:08:31.316 the future has to do with who's around us right now. 0:08:31.396 --> 0:08:35.636 But I do think of cynicism as generally a social theory. 0:08:36.076 --> 0:08:40.796 Okay, okay, that's very helpful. Would you call cynicism the 0:08:40.876 --> 0:08:44.676 default state of the human or like, is that what 0:08:44.716 --> 0:08:46.356 you see in the data or do you think that 0:08:46.396 --> 0:08:50.116 it's somewhat acquired. I'm just curious to know what we're 0:08:50.156 --> 0:08:50.996 running up against. 0:08:51.636 --> 0:08:55.396 So there are some defaults in the human brain and 0:08:55.476 --> 0:09:00.516 mind that tip us towards cynicism. Psychologists talk about negativity bias, 0:09:01.076 --> 0:09:05.356 the idea that it's often much easier to pay attention to, 0:09:05.356 --> 0:09:09.916 to remember, and much more tempting to talk about negative 0:09:09.956 --> 0:09:14.556 events and people than positive events in people. And you 0:09:14.596 --> 0:09:18.876 can see why that would be evolutionarily adaptive, right. You know, 0:09:18.876 --> 0:09:21.716 if you're thinking back one hundred thousand years, the people 0:09:21.716 --> 0:09:24.156 who paid lots of attention to threats in their environment 0:09:24.236 --> 0:09:27.156 might be more likely to survive. And so that's I 0:09:27.156 --> 0:09:31.556 think one thing that makes fighting cynicism an uphill battle. 0:09:32.396 --> 0:09:34.436 You've already alluded to some of the negative impacts of 0:09:34.476 --> 0:09:37.916 cynicism on our well being and relationships. Are there any 0:09:37.916 --> 0:09:40.556 other studies or research that you would want to share? 0:09:41.676 --> 0:09:46.796 Yeah, I mean so. One is that cinics unfortunately live 0:09:47.156 --> 0:09:49.956 far less healthy lives, even at a physical level, so 0:09:50.396 --> 0:09:54.156 they tend to show greater signs of cellular aging and inflammation. 0:09:54.796 --> 0:09:58.036 They tend to develop heart disease more than nonsnics and 0:09:58.076 --> 0:10:01.476 even die younger than non cynics. And I think this 0:10:01.596 --> 0:10:05.916 comes from the fact that cynics have a harder time 0:10:05.996 --> 0:10:08.996 tapping into one of the things that de stresses and 0:10:09.116 --> 0:10:13.836 it nourishes us the most connection to other people. There's 0:10:13.916 --> 0:10:18.116 one really fascinating study where researchers brought people in the 0:10:18.196 --> 0:10:21.516 lab and asked them to give an extemporaneous speech on 0:10:21.556 --> 0:10:23.836 a topic they didn't know very well, which of course 0:10:23.916 --> 0:10:27.476 is not pleasant for anybody. And in some cases people 0:10:27.516 --> 0:10:30.476 had a cheerleader, a friendly stranger who was with them 0:10:30.476 --> 0:10:33.156 while they prepared and said, you've got this. I believe 0:10:33.196 --> 0:10:36.356 in you. And in other cases they were alone. Now, 0:10:36.956 --> 0:10:40.076 for noncnics, their blood pressure went up when they were 0:10:40.116 --> 0:10:42.156 preparing this speech, that would happen for any of us. 0:10:42.276 --> 0:10:44.796 But when they had a supportive stranger there, their blood 0:10:44.796 --> 0:10:48.356 pressure went up a lot less. For cynics, having a 0:10:48.356 --> 0:10:51.276 supportive person there didn't make a difference at all. So 0:10:51.356 --> 0:10:53.796 their blood pressure increased just as much if they were 0:10:53.796 --> 0:10:56.756 alone or if somebody was there to help them. That 0:10:56.876 --> 0:10:59.196 is so telling to me. It almost strikes me that 0:10:59.396 --> 0:11:02.556 if you're cynical, if you don't believe in people, then 0:11:02.916 --> 0:11:07.916 you kind of can't digest or metabolize the social nourishment 0:11:08.276 --> 0:11:10.916 of connection. And I think that that's just such a 0:11:10.956 --> 0:11:11.876 tragic way to live. 0:11:12.236 --> 0:11:17.756 Yeah, so much of your book I see as mythbusting cynicism. 0:11:17.916 --> 0:11:22.396 And so what are some common misconceptions that people have 0:11:22.916 --> 0:11:23.756 about cynicism. 0:11:25.276 --> 0:11:27.556 Yeah, this was one of the things that was most 0:11:27.636 --> 0:11:31.356 surprising for me when I started doing this research, because 0:11:31.356 --> 0:11:34.916 I thought to myself, Wow, cynicism feels terrible. It's awful 0:11:34.956 --> 0:11:37.756 for our health and relationships, it's not very good for 0:11:37.796 --> 0:11:42.236 our communities. Why are so many people adopting this as 0:11:42.276 --> 0:11:44.716 a view of life and as a view of humanity. 0:11:45.236 --> 0:11:48.596 And there are three myths that I realized our culture 0:11:48.636 --> 0:11:53.316 propagates about cynicism. The first is that it's wise. Now, 0:11:53.396 --> 0:11:55.916 over the last three years since starting this project, I've 0:11:55.916 --> 0:11:59.596 talked to so many self proclaimed cynics, and one thing 0:11:59.636 --> 0:12:03.396 that they have in common, besides hostility and a little 0:12:03.396 --> 0:12:07.476 bit of contempt, is a sort of bitter pride. A 0:12:07.516 --> 0:12:10.236 lot of cynics will say, I'm actually a realist. You 0:12:10.316 --> 0:12:13.596 know that if you don't think in cynical terms, you're 0:12:13.756 --> 0:12:17.876 a naive roub or a chump. That if you pay 0:12:17.916 --> 0:12:21.836 close enough attention and become wise enough, then you will 0:12:21.876 --> 0:12:25.796 realize that people are really terrible. And in fact, it's 0:12:25.836 --> 0:12:29.436 not just cynics who think this. Surveys find that seventy 0:12:29.476 --> 0:12:33.116 percent of people think that cynics are smarter than non cynics, 0:12:33.596 --> 0:12:36.796 and eighty five percent of people think that cynics are 0:12:36.996 --> 0:12:39.916 more socially smart, for instance, that they'll be better at 0:12:39.956 --> 0:12:43.436 picking out liars than nonsnics. It turns out that that's 0:12:43.756 --> 0:12:47.356 not true. So there's data from hundreds of thousands of people, 0:12:47.836 --> 0:12:51.676 lots of national surveys that finds that cnics actually perform 0:12:51.756 --> 0:12:55.076 less well on cognitive tests. Than non cynics, and there 0:12:55.156 --> 0:12:57.916 is other research that finds that cynics are worse at 0:12:57.996 --> 0:13:02.436 spotting liars than non cynics. So it's important to know 0:13:02.476 --> 0:13:05.956 that that perception of cynicism as a type of intelligence 0:13:06.396 --> 0:13:08.716 is clearly at odds with the data. 0:13:09.596 --> 0:13:11.916 Let's talk a bit more about some of the other 0:13:11.996 --> 0:13:14.196 misconceptions we have about cynicism. 0:13:14.836 --> 0:13:18.676 Yeah, I think that another misconception that I think people 0:13:18.716 --> 0:13:21.796 have about cynicism is that it's safe. You know, I 0:13:21.836 --> 0:13:25.196 think a lot of us who feel cynical about others 0:13:25.756 --> 0:13:30.516 feel that way because we've been hurt, betrayed, disappointed, you know. 0:13:30.596 --> 0:13:34.516 I know for me, my cynicism comes from a lot 0:13:34.516 --> 0:13:37.036 of early parts of my life where I didn't feel 0:13:37.036 --> 0:13:39.036 like I could really count on people. And so it's 0:13:39.116 --> 0:13:41.276 not saying that I feel because I think I'm superior 0:13:41.356 --> 0:13:44.836 to others or because I want to have a negative attitude. 0:13:45.076 --> 0:13:48.236 It's sort of a response to pain. And one response 0:13:48.276 --> 0:13:50.476 that we might have to pain is to put our 0:13:50.516 --> 0:13:52.676 guard up to feel like, well, I never want to 0:13:52.676 --> 0:13:55.716 experience that again. I don't want to be betrayed or 0:13:55.756 --> 0:13:58.876 hurt again. And the only way I can guarantee my 0:13:58.996 --> 0:14:03.036 own safety moving forward is to shut off any type 0:14:03.036 --> 0:14:06.516 of social risk. And that's why I think you often 0:14:06.556 --> 0:14:09.676 see cynics not willing to trust people because they don't 0:14:09.716 --> 0:14:12.996 want to risk betrayal, They don't want to risk being 0:14:13.036 --> 0:14:13.996 taken advantage of. 0:14:14.916 --> 0:14:18.316 No. I totally appreciate that. Why don't we cover genial 0:14:18.476 --> 0:14:22.356 The third misconception that people have when it comes to cynicism. 0:14:23.036 --> 0:14:27.276 Yeah, the third misconception around cynicism is the idea that 0:14:27.356 --> 0:14:32.196 cynicism is moral, that that really it's so important to 0:14:32.916 --> 0:14:37.956 be aware of injustice, corruption and harm, and that cynics 0:14:37.996 --> 0:14:42.036 are the only ones who are adequately responsive to all 0:14:42.116 --> 0:14:44.876 the terrible things that happen in the world, and as 0:14:44.876 --> 0:14:48.716 a result, that being hopeful or positive is kind of 0:14:48.756 --> 0:14:52.676 an abandonment of our species and our problems, that it's 0:14:52.716 --> 0:14:55.396 a pair of rose colored glasses. You know, when I 0:14:55.476 --> 0:14:58.956 talk about hope and overcoming cynicism, a lot of people say, well, 0:14:58.956 --> 0:15:03.276 that's rich coming from you, an ultra privileged professor at 0:15:03.316 --> 0:15:05.876 an elite university. You know, a lot of us don't 0:15:05.916 --> 0:15:09.756 have the luxury of feeling good about humanity. We have 0:15:09.836 --> 0:15:15.276 to speak truth to power and challenge injustice. And first 0:15:15.316 --> 0:15:19.556 of all, I think cynics might see injustice just like 0:15:19.596 --> 0:15:23.116 the rest of us do, but cynicism suggests that there's 0:15:23.196 --> 0:15:25.196 nothing really to be done about it, because if a 0:15:25.236 --> 0:15:30.036 broken system reflects our broken nature, if the worst of 0:15:30.156 --> 0:15:34.116 us is who we really are, than any change, any 0:15:34.156 --> 0:15:36.996 attempt to improve the world or the systems that we 0:15:37.036 --> 0:15:40.596 live in, is doomed from the outset. And so you 0:15:40.636 --> 0:15:44.076 actually see more cynical people are less likely to take 0:15:44.156 --> 0:15:47.596 part in social movements, they're less likely to vote, they're 0:15:47.636 --> 0:15:50.556 more willing to do things like spread conspiracy theories. And 0:15:50.596 --> 0:15:55.556 in fact, I think that autocrats and authoritarians often benefit 0:15:55.836 --> 0:15:59.356 from cynicism and use it as a way of promoting 0:15:59.356 --> 0:16:02.516 the status quo. I mean, a population that doesn't trust 0:16:02.596 --> 0:16:05.756 itself is an easy one to manipulate. 0:16:05.956 --> 0:16:08.836 Yeah, yeah, Do you think there's an element of guilt? 0:16:09.236 --> 0:16:16.876 Do people feel guilty when they express optimism? Because it 0:16:17.036 --> 0:16:19.556 just feels jarring when you see all the pain and 0:16:19.596 --> 0:16:20.596 suffering around you. 0:16:21.676 --> 0:16:24.636 This is such a deep question, and I do want 0:16:24.636 --> 0:16:28.236 to separate optimism from hope here. Yeah, Optimism is the 0:16:28.316 --> 0:16:31.676 idea that things will turn out well. Hope is the 0:16:31.756 --> 0:16:35.236 idea that they could turn out well. And I think 0:16:35.396 --> 0:16:39.516 that's a huge distinction, because optimism can lead a little 0:16:39.556 --> 0:16:41.876 bit to complacency. You know, if things are going to 0:16:41.956 --> 0:16:44.196 go great, then I don't really have to do anything 0:16:44.236 --> 0:16:46.836 to make a difference. And in fact, I think that 0:16:47.476 --> 0:16:50.436 what you could call toxic optimism is not that different 0:16:50.436 --> 0:16:53.236 from cynicism. If cynics think, well, things are going to 0:16:53.236 --> 0:16:55.836 go terribly no matter what I do, they can also 0:16:56.196 --> 0:16:56.956 be complacent. 0:16:57.236 --> 0:16:59.156 Yeah, an optimists are like, things are going to go 0:16:59.196 --> 0:17:00.676 great no matter what I do, so I'm not going 0:17:00.716 --> 0:17:01.276 to do anything. 0:17:01.716 --> 0:17:05.116 So you've got two groups of people who have fundamentally 0:17:05.156 --> 0:17:08.076 different beliefs, but neither one of them might be inspired 0:17:08.116 --> 0:17:12.476 to do much. Hope takes the deep uncertainty that we 0:17:12.556 --> 0:17:16.276 have about the future as the place where our actions matter, 0:17:16.956 --> 0:17:21.716 and so hopeful people tend to focus on their agency 0:17:22.356 --> 0:17:24.556 and they think, well, there's a vision of the world 0:17:24.596 --> 0:17:26.996 where things could be better. I'm not saying that's what 0:17:27.116 --> 0:17:31.116 will happen, but it's a possibility, and in order for 0:17:31.196 --> 0:17:34.436 that possibility to become more likely, I need to take action. 0:17:35.156 --> 0:17:39.596 Hopeful individuals, for instance, tend to be more resilient during adversity. 0:17:40.156 --> 0:17:44.996 Lower socio economic and underrepresented minority students who have hope, 0:17:45.036 --> 0:17:49.556 are more likely to pursue their academic goals, and socially 0:17:49.596 --> 0:17:53.756 as well, Hopeful people are more willing to engage in protests. 0:17:53.996 --> 0:17:57.796 A protest is not a complacent, rose colored glasses type 0:17:57.796 --> 0:18:00.876 of thing to do. It's taking major problems head on. 0:18:01.356 --> 0:18:03.716 But why do we take those problems head on? Because 0:18:03.756 --> 0:18:06.996 we think that there's a difference to be made. 0:18:07.116 --> 0:18:11.876 You advocate in your book for quote, Unlearning Cynicism, and 0:18:12.716 --> 0:18:17.596 you introduce this concept of hopeful skepticism. You've already explained 0:18:17.596 --> 0:18:20.116 how hope is different from optimism. Can you explain what 0:18:20.156 --> 0:18:22.156 you mean by hopeful skepticism. 0:18:22.716 --> 0:18:26.116 One of the most important things that I learned in 0:18:26.556 --> 0:18:30.516 doing research for this project was the difference between cynicism 0:18:30.556 --> 0:18:33.396 and skepticism. You know, as we've talked about, cynicism is 0:18:33.436 --> 0:18:36.276 a theory about the world. Well as you know as 0:18:36.316 --> 0:18:38.676 a scientist, once you have a theory, you start to 0:18:38.756 --> 0:18:41.916 kind of see it everywhere and even want to support it, 0:18:42.276 --> 0:18:44.996 and so there can be some confirmation bias around theories, 0:18:45.036 --> 0:18:48.116 and cynics often have a biased way of looking at 0:18:48.116 --> 0:18:50.156 the world. They almost look at it like lawyers, right, 0:18:50.276 --> 0:18:53.756 and the prosecution against humanity. They really pay lots of 0:18:53.796 --> 0:18:56.356 attention to the terrible things that people do, or they 0:18:56.436 --> 0:19:01.756 might explain away the others' kindness and trustworthiness. Skepticism is 0:19:02.636 --> 0:19:05.876 not thinking like a lawyer, but thinking like a scientist. 0:19:06.516 --> 0:19:10.436 Skeptics don't necessarily have some huge, huge assumption or theory 0:19:10.476 --> 0:19:14.556 about what people are like. Instead, they look for evidence. 0:19:15.036 --> 0:19:19.596 They're unwilling to rest on early and easy judgments, and 0:19:19.676 --> 0:19:24.396 because of that, skepticism is really different from cynicism, and skeptics, 0:19:24.516 --> 0:19:29.796 unlike cinics, can learn really quickly, can adapt to new situations, 0:19:30.116 --> 0:19:34.396 and become much more accurate about people than cinics do. 0:19:35.636 --> 0:19:38.636 One of the quotes that I really enjoyed from your book, 0:19:38.716 --> 0:19:42.156 and I thought articulated the point well, is that hope 0:19:42.236 --> 0:19:45.036 is not a naive way of approaching the world. It's 0:19:45.076 --> 0:19:48.276 an accurate response to the best data available. 0:19:49.276 --> 0:19:52.396 It's really a point I want to drive home because 0:19:52.796 --> 0:19:54.756 a lot of people when they hear hope, they think 0:19:54.756 --> 0:19:56.676 of somebody with their head in the sand. They think 0:19:56.676 --> 0:20:01.836 of somebody ignoring data as opposed to approaching data. One 0:20:01.876 --> 0:20:05.236 of the important points, though, and the reason that I 0:20:05.276 --> 0:20:09.316 call it hopeful skepticism, is because our default tends to 0:20:09.356 --> 0:20:13.836 be negative. When you adopt a skeptical perspective, you do 0:20:13.956 --> 0:20:18.236 tend to move towards a slightly more hopeful and positive 0:20:18.276 --> 0:20:21.996 place because you're correcting for the biases that we already have. 0:20:22.036 --> 0:20:24.036 People always say, what you want me to put on 0:20:24.076 --> 0:20:26.556 a pair of rose colored glasses, and I say, no, 0:20:27.076 --> 0:20:30.396 you're probably already wearing a pair of glasses that's like 0:20:30.516 --> 0:20:33.596 mud colored, So just take those off right, so that 0:20:33.876 --> 0:20:36.876 I'm actually not asking people to pay less attention, but 0:20:36.996 --> 0:20:41.996 to pay more attention to the folks around them. 0:20:42.276 --> 0:20:46.276 After the break, Jamil teaches us how to practice hopeful skepticism. 0:20:46.836 --> 0:20:48.916 We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 0:20:48.916 --> 0:21:02.916 of plans, Jimil. The hopeful part of all this is 0:21:02.956 --> 0:21:06.556 that hopeful skepticism is in fact a skill that we 0:21:06.596 --> 0:21:08.796 can build. So why don't we talk a bit about 0:21:08.796 --> 0:21:11.796 how it is that we can build that muscle. In 0:21:11.836 --> 0:21:15.036 your book, you have this wonderful practical guide, and I'm 0:21:15.076 --> 0:21:18.996 hoping that we can share with listeners a few examples 0:21:19.076 --> 0:21:22.596 of some of these overarching strategies. The first you say 0:21:22.756 --> 0:21:26.956 is to connect with your core values. Tell me what 0:21:26.996 --> 0:21:27.556 that looks like. 0:21:28.036 --> 0:21:30.876 Yeah, you know, it's interesting. It turns out that although 0:21:31.676 --> 0:21:35.756 cynics have a lot of judgment and contempt for other people. 0:21:36.596 --> 0:21:39.676 They also tend to say that they rely on other 0:21:39.716 --> 0:21:43.956 people more for their sense of self worth the non cynics. 0:21:44.196 --> 0:21:47.196 So there's a sense that when we can't trust ourselves 0:21:47.956 --> 0:21:51.476 very deeply, it's hard to trust others. Yeah, it turns 0:21:51.476 --> 0:21:55.476 out that one of the best ways to start overcoming 0:21:55.516 --> 0:21:59.516 cynicism is to connect in new ways to ourselves. My 0:21:59.596 --> 0:22:03.116 colleague at Stanford, Jeff Cohen, has a lot of work 0:22:03.156 --> 0:22:07.236 on this through what he calls values affirmation. So values 0:22:07.236 --> 0:22:11.196 affirmation is where you so consider what matters most to 0:22:11.236 --> 0:22:13.316 you in life. You'll see a list of, for instance, 0:22:13.356 --> 0:22:15.796 twenty things that people often say they care a lot about, 0:22:15.836 --> 0:22:17.636 and you'll be asked, well, what are your top three 0:22:17.876 --> 0:22:20.276 or what's your top one, And then you're asked to 0:22:20.276 --> 0:22:22.996 write about, well, why does it matter to you and 0:22:23.036 --> 0:22:25.396 what are some ways that you express that value in 0:22:25.436 --> 0:22:28.676 your life. And it turns out that this simple exercise, 0:22:28.956 --> 0:22:31.876 just ten fifteen minutes of writing about what really matters 0:22:31.876 --> 0:22:35.356 to you and how you live your values, instills a 0:22:35.436 --> 0:22:38.036 kind of deep confidence in people. I'm not talking about 0:22:38.276 --> 0:22:43.596 braggadocious arrogance, but rather a sense of sturdiness, a sense 0:22:43.636 --> 0:22:47.076 of solid foundation, and when we have that sense of 0:22:47.116 --> 0:22:51.476 sturdiness internally, we're more willing to be open to others. 0:22:51.996 --> 0:22:54.996 Jeff finds that when people affirm their own values, they 0:22:54.996 --> 0:22:59.116 feel less threatened by information that conflicts with their beliefs 0:22:59.156 --> 0:23:02.156 and more open minded. And that's why I think it 0:23:02.276 --> 0:23:05.476 might tap us in also to a sense of skepticism 0:23:05.916 --> 0:23:08.196 and hopeful skepticism about other people. 0:23:09.276 --> 0:23:11.596 You talk about this in terms of, you know, better 0:23:11.716 --> 0:23:15.516 connecting to ourselves, and I wonder I'm just thinking out loud. 0:23:15.516 --> 0:23:18.476 I mean, here's one way in which I think increasing 0:23:18.516 --> 0:23:20.956 self compassion could be a vehicle through which we have 0:23:20.996 --> 0:23:25.116 more hope. So when we do fail or we make 0:23:25.156 --> 0:23:28.556 some sort of mistake, we can overconclude from that incident. Right, 0:23:28.556 --> 0:23:30.876 So rather than saying I made a mistake, it's I'm 0:23:30.916 --> 0:23:32.436 a mistake. There's no redemption. 0:23:32.556 --> 0:23:33.116 Yeah. 0:23:33.156 --> 0:23:37.716 And if I have more self compassion and I believe, okay, 0:23:37.956 --> 0:23:40.956 well I made a mistake, I myself not a mistake, 0:23:41.396 --> 0:23:44.516 I might be more willing to assume that posture with 0:23:44.596 --> 0:23:46.996 other people in my life, like, oh, that person hurt me, 0:23:47.076 --> 0:23:49.756 but they might not be like a hurtful person, like 0:23:49.796 --> 0:23:52.316 someone who loves hurting others. They might just have aired 0:23:53.276 --> 0:23:54.316 in a particular way. 0:23:54.996 --> 0:23:57.636 That's beautifully put. I love that. And I think there's 0:23:58.196 --> 0:24:02.356 a lot of evidence that when we judge people in 0:24:02.396 --> 0:24:05.876 a trait based way, we see an action that they 0:24:05.916 --> 0:24:09.996 take and we decide that action defines them. That closes 0:24:10.076 --> 0:24:12.556 us off not just to compassion for that person, but 0:24:12.636 --> 0:24:15.396 it makes it very easy for us to think cynically 0:24:15.396 --> 0:24:19.076 about that individual. In fact, cynicism is a sort of 0:24:19.156 --> 0:24:21.596