1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:15,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:29,916 --> 00:00:33,236 Speaker 2: Cynics might see injustice just like the rest of us do, 3 00:00:33,676 --> 00:00:37,116 Speaker 2: but cynicism suggests that there's nothing really to be done 4 00:00:37,116 --> 00:00:41,796 Speaker 2: about it, because if a broken system reflects our broken nature, 5 00:00:42,116 --> 00:00:44,756 Speaker 2: if the worst of us is who we really are, 6 00:00:45,276 --> 00:00:48,996 Speaker 2: then any change, any attempt to improve the world or 7 00:00:49,036 --> 00:00:52,636 Speaker 2: the systems that we live in, is doomed from the outset. 8 00:00:54,076 --> 00:00:58,636 Speaker 1: Psychologist Jimil Zaki studies the science of human connection, and 9 00:00:58,676 --> 00:01:02,596 Speaker 1: he believes that cynicism is holding us back. It's not 10 00:01:02,636 --> 00:01:07,556 Speaker 1: just harmful for health, it's also misguided. The alternative, he says, 11 00:01:07,836 --> 00:01:10,476 Speaker 1: is a mindset called full skepticism. 12 00:01:10,836 --> 00:01:13,316 Speaker 2: And the reason that I call it hopeful skepticism is 13 00:01:13,396 --> 00:01:17,956 Speaker 2: because our default tends to be negative. When you adopt 14 00:01:18,316 --> 00:01:22,356 Speaker 2: a skeptical perspective, you do tend to move towards a 15 00:01:22,396 --> 00:01:26,876 Speaker 2: slightly more hopeful and positive place because you're correcting for 16 00:01:27,036 --> 00:01:29,636 Speaker 2: the biases that we already have. People always say, what 17 00:01:29,676 --> 00:01:31,556 Speaker 2: you want me to put on a pair of rose 18 00:01:31,596 --> 00:01:34,996 Speaker 2: colored glasses, and I say, no, you're probably already wearing 19 00:01:35,036 --> 00:01:38,196 Speaker 2: a pair of glasses that's like mud colored, So just 20 00:01:38,316 --> 00:01:41,316 Speaker 2: take those off right, so that I'm actually not asking 21 00:01:41,316 --> 00:01:44,516 Speaker 2: people to pay less attention, but to pay more attention 22 00:01:45,036 --> 00:01:50,396 Speaker 2: to the folks around them. 23 00:01:50,516 --> 00:01:54,396 Speaker 1: On today's episode, the Life Changing Benefits of being a 24 00:01:54,436 --> 00:01:58,796 Speaker 1: Hopeful Skeptic, I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight 25 00:01:58,876 --> 00:02:01,596 Speaker 1: change of plans, a show about who we are and 26 00:02:01,636 --> 00:02:09,396 Speaker 1: who we become in the face of a big change. 27 00:02:17,756 --> 00:02:21,596 Speaker 1: Jamil Zaki is a professor of psychology at Stanford University 28 00:02:22,036 --> 00:02:25,876 Speaker 1: and the director of the Stanford Social Neuroscience Lab. You 29 00:02:25,956 --> 00:02:28,756 Speaker 1: might remember him from his first appearance on this show, 30 00:02:29,076 --> 00:02:32,636 Speaker 1: when he talked about the power of empathy. Jamil has 31 00:02:32,676 --> 00:02:35,596 Speaker 1: spent the last twenty years studying the sunny side of 32 00:02:35,676 --> 00:02:40,876 Speaker 1: human nature, things like compassion, kindness, and togetherness. He says 33 00:02:40,916 --> 00:02:44,116 Speaker 1: he's widely known as a kind of ambassador for humanity's 34 00:02:44,156 --> 00:02:48,076 Speaker 1: better angels. But in his new book Hope for Cynics, 35 00:02:48,196 --> 00:02:52,556 Speaker 1: The Surprising Science of Human Goodness, Jamil talks about struggling 36 00:02:52,556 --> 00:02:55,916 Speaker 1: with this image. He begins the book with a confession. 37 00:02:56,836 --> 00:03:00,356 Speaker 2: This entire time that I've been advocating for and talking 38 00:03:00,396 --> 00:03:04,956 Speaker 2: about human goodness, I myself have been pretty cynical. I 39 00:03:05,116 --> 00:03:09,036 Speaker 2: tend to suspect people and look at the worst sides 40 00:03:09,236 --> 00:03:14,156 Speaker 2: of lots of situations, becoming anxious, neurotic pessimistic, and I 41 00:03:14,156 --> 00:03:18,236 Speaker 2: feel like that split between my outer persona on the 42 00:03:18,276 --> 00:03:22,476 Speaker 2: one hand and my deepest experiences on the other has 43 00:03:22,516 --> 00:03:24,316 Speaker 2: been a problem for me and did something that I 44 00:03:24,356 --> 00:03:27,036 Speaker 2: wanted to bring out into the light and address. 45 00:03:27,516 --> 00:03:29,916 Speaker 1: I'm curious if you can tell me a bit more 46 00:03:29,956 --> 00:03:33,316 Speaker 1: about that disconnect. Do you remember a story in which 47 00:03:33,356 --> 00:03:36,436 Speaker 1: you met with someone who were giving a group council 48 00:03:36,756 --> 00:03:39,236 Speaker 1: and then you went home and you were kind of like, oh, darn, 49 00:03:39,036 --> 00:03:42,116 Speaker 1: I don't actually think I'm buying what I'm saying. I'm 50 00:03:42,156 --> 00:03:45,156 Speaker 1: not internalizing this, oh one hundred percent. 51 00:03:45,556 --> 00:03:49,356 Speaker 2: One of the most intense moments came after TED, the 52 00:03:49,436 --> 00:03:53,636 Speaker 2: global conference that has a lot of great speakers, asked 53 00:03:53,636 --> 00:03:57,156 Speaker 2: me to come and give a talk on optimism as 54 00:03:57,196 --> 00:04:00,476 Speaker 2: a path to positive social change. I pulled out my 55 00:04:00,516 --> 00:04:02,476 Speaker 2: notebook and I said, I'm going to start drafting this 56 00:04:02,596 --> 00:04:05,916 Speaker 2: talk on the first I think Wednesday of the year 57 00:04:06,436 --> 00:04:09,716 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one, which happened to be January. And 58 00:04:09,796 --> 00:04:13,836 Speaker 2: I remember I started drafting this talk about how you 59 00:04:13,876 --> 00:04:17,276 Speaker 2: know optimism is so important, and my friend texted me 60 00:04:17,316 --> 00:04:19,596 Speaker 2: and said, you have to turn on the television right now, 61 00:04:19,716 --> 00:04:22,116 Speaker 2: and I saw what the rest of the nation and 62 00:04:22,196 --> 00:04:26,156 Speaker 2: world saw with the insurrection at the Capitol Building, and 63 00:04:27,236 --> 00:04:32,356 Speaker 2: I thought, to myself, am I full of shit? Is 64 00:04:32,396 --> 00:04:36,236 Speaker 2: everything that I talk about a lie? I know it's 65 00:04:36,316 --> 00:04:40,156 Speaker 2: not because I do the research, I see the data, 66 00:04:40,556 --> 00:04:44,356 Speaker 2: but there's sometimes such a huge distance between your head 67 00:04:44,356 --> 00:04:46,876 Speaker 2: and your heart, you know, And like I just couldn't 68 00:04:46,916 --> 00:04:50,956 Speaker 2: believe deeper inside myself that people were good as I 69 00:04:51,036 --> 00:04:52,996 Speaker 2: watched this tragedy unfold. 70 00:04:53,476 --> 00:04:57,836 Speaker 1: Yeah, what were the personal costs to being cynical for you? 71 00:04:57,956 --> 00:04:59,636 Speaker 1: I'm curious to hear how that played out. 72 00:05:00,596 --> 00:05:05,876 Speaker 2: During that lockdown period late twenty twenty early twenty twenty one, 73 00:05:06,476 --> 00:05:10,116 Speaker 2: I really probably had the rock bottom of my own 74 00:05:10,156 --> 00:05:14,036 Speaker 2: personal cynicism, and it was extremely apparent to me that 75 00:05:14,276 --> 00:05:16,556 Speaker 2: entire time that it was not helping me, that it 76 00:05:16,636 --> 00:05:22,396 Speaker 2: was hurting me emotionally, it was diminishing my relationships. It 77 00:05:22,476 --> 00:05:26,596 Speaker 2: was it felt like a form of social depression, right, 78 00:05:26,756 --> 00:05:30,916 Speaker 2: depression kind of casts this gray light over everything, and 79 00:05:31,076 --> 00:05:34,796 Speaker 2: especially over your sense of self and the world at large. 80 00:05:34,996 --> 00:05:38,596 Speaker 2: I felt like cynicism was doing that for my vision 81 00:05:38,636 --> 00:05:41,596 Speaker 2: of other people, you know, sort of it made it 82 00:05:41,756 --> 00:05:44,676 Speaker 2: extremely difficult for me to see people in a positive light. 83 00:05:44,716 --> 00:05:48,996 Speaker 2: And I started exploring the science of cynicism because I 84 00:05:49,036 --> 00:05:52,236 Speaker 2: wanted to figure out what was happening inside me and 85 00:05:52,316 --> 00:05:55,516 Speaker 2: whether there was anything that I could do for myself 86 00:05:55,676 --> 00:05:59,076 Speaker 2: to dig out of this trap that I felt my 87 00:05:59,236 --> 00:06:02,876 Speaker 2: mind was in. And it's only then that I discovered 88 00:06:03,236 --> 00:06:08,596 Speaker 2: how common this sense of hopelessness, exhaustion, and cynicism really is, 89 00:06:08,876 --> 00:06:10,956 Speaker 2: which first of all made me feel better because I 90 00:06:10,996 --> 00:06:12,436 Speaker 2: was like, well, at least I'm not alone, but then 91 00:06:12,516 --> 00:06:14,996 Speaker 2: made me feel as I learned more and more about 92 00:06:15,356 --> 00:06:18,076 Speaker 2: how harmful cynicism is, and not only how harmful, but 93 00:06:18,196 --> 00:06:22,716 Speaker 2: how unnecessary it is, I thought, Wow, this could actually 94 00:06:22,916 --> 00:06:25,636 Speaker 2: help a lot of people who feel like I. 95 00:06:25,756 --> 00:06:28,996 Speaker 1: Do you know when you say the word cynicism, Jimille, 96 00:06:29,076 --> 00:06:34,076 Speaker 1: so many images come to mind. What is your definition 97 00:06:34,116 --> 00:06:34,796 Speaker 1: of cynicism? 98 00:06:35,476 --> 00:06:39,996 Speaker 2: Cynicism can be defined as a theory about the world 99 00:06:40,676 --> 00:06:44,156 Speaker 2: and about people in particular. It's the theory that humanity 100 00:06:44,436 --> 00:06:49,196 Speaker 2: in general is selfish, greedy, and dishonest. Okay, that is 101 00:06:49,236 --> 00:06:51,876 Speaker 2: not to say that a cynic will doubt that anybody 102 00:06:51,956 --> 00:06:54,996 Speaker 2: will ever do a kind thing in their lives. They 103 00:06:55,076 --> 00:06:58,436 Speaker 2: just think that at our core, who we are is 104 00:06:58,516 --> 00:07:02,316 Speaker 2: defined by self interest. Now, if you have that theory, 105 00:07:02,436 --> 00:07:04,996 Speaker 2: you might notice a bunch of things happening inside you 106 00:07:05,236 --> 00:07:07,996 Speaker 2: and a bunch of things in your behavior. Right first, 107 00:07:08,396 --> 00:07:12,156 Speaker 2: you might find self suspecting other people's motives, even when 108 00:07:12,156 --> 00:07:15,396 Speaker 2: they do things that appear positive. You might find yourself 109 00:07:15,516 --> 00:07:18,716 Speaker 2: very quick to judge others based on the harms that 110 00:07:18,756 --> 00:07:21,396 Speaker 2: they produce, not on the best things that they do. 111 00:07:22,316 --> 00:07:24,316 Speaker 2: It might also change what you do and what you 112 00:07:24,396 --> 00:07:27,876 Speaker 2: don't do. One place that we see cynicism play out 113 00:07:27,996 --> 00:07:31,996 Speaker 2: very strongly is in trust. Trust is our willingness to 114 00:07:32,076 --> 00:07:35,396 Speaker 2: be vulnerable to other people on the belief that they 115 00:07:35,396 --> 00:07:39,596 Speaker 2: have our best interest in mind. Loaning somebody money, letting 116 00:07:39,596 --> 00:07:44,156 Speaker 2: somebody babysit your kid, giving somebody more responsibility at work, 117 00:07:44,196 --> 00:07:46,436 Speaker 2: on your team. All of these are types of trust, 118 00:07:46,476 --> 00:07:50,756 Speaker 2: and trust is a social gamble. We can't know what 119 00:07:50,796 --> 00:07:53,356 Speaker 2: the outcome will be. We need to count on other people. 120 00:07:53,356 --> 00:07:57,076 Speaker 2: And if you're cynical, that gamble feels like it's for suckers. 121 00:07:57,156 --> 00:08:00,036 Speaker 2: It feels like a losing bet. So cynics tend to 122 00:08:00,036 --> 00:08:02,356 Speaker 2: trust a lot less often than non cynics. 123 00:08:03,196 --> 00:08:06,636 Speaker 1: You have a very people focused definition. So is that 124 00:08:06,716 --> 00:08:10,156 Speaker 1: intentional and does it exclude those who just think irrespective 125 00:08:10,156 --> 00:08:12,836 Speaker 1: of a human involvement you know, an asteroid might hit us, Like, 126 00:08:13,036 --> 00:08:14,436 Speaker 1: how do you bucket those folks? 127 00:08:15,196 --> 00:08:19,276 Speaker 2: Yeah? I think that what you're describing is pessimism, the 128 00:08:19,316 --> 00:08:21,956 Speaker 2: idea that the future will unfold in ways that we 129 00:08:22,036 --> 00:08:25,396 Speaker 2: don't want. And I think that pessimism and cynicism are 130 00:08:25,556 --> 00:08:28,516 Speaker 2: quite related because a lot of what we expect about 131 00:08:28,516 --> 00:08:31,316 Speaker 2: the future has to do with who's around us right now. 132 00:08:31,396 --> 00:08:35,636 Speaker 2: But I do think of cynicism as generally a social theory. 133 00:08:36,076 --> 00:08:40,796 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, that's very helpful. Would you call cynicism the 134 00:08:40,876 --> 00:08:44,676 Speaker 1: default state of the human or like, is that what 135 00:08:44,716 --> 00:08:46,356 Speaker 1: you see in the data or do you think that 136 00:08:46,396 --> 00:08:50,116 Speaker 1: it's somewhat acquired. I'm just curious to know what we're 137 00:08:50,156 --> 00:08:50,996 Speaker 1: running up against. 138 00:08:51,636 --> 00:08:55,396 Speaker 2: So there are some defaults in the human brain and 139 00:08:55,476 --> 00:09:00,516 Speaker 2: mind that tip us towards cynicism. Psychologists talk about negativity bias, 140 00:09:01,076 --> 00:09:05,356 Speaker 2: the idea that it's often much easier to pay attention to, 141 00:09:05,356 --> 00:09:09,916 Speaker 2: to remember, and much more tempting to talk about negative 142 00:09:09,956 --> 00:09:14,556 Speaker 2: events and people than positive events in people. And you 143 00:09:14,596 --> 00:09:18,876 Speaker 2: can see why that would be evolutionarily adaptive, right. You know, 144 00:09:18,876 --> 00:09:21,716 Speaker 2: if you're thinking back one hundred thousand years, the people 145 00:09:21,716 --> 00:09:24,156 Speaker 2: who paid lots of attention to threats in their environment 146 00:09:24,236 --> 00:09:27,156 Speaker 2: might be more likely to survive. And so that's I 147 00:09:27,156 --> 00:09:31,556 Speaker 2: think one thing that makes fighting cynicism an uphill battle. 148 00:09:32,396 --> 00:09:34,436 Speaker 1: You've already alluded to some of the negative impacts of 149 00:09:34,476 --> 00:09:37,916 Speaker 1: cynicism on our well being and relationships. Are there any 150 00:09:37,916 --> 00:09:40,556 Speaker 1: other studies or research that you would want to share? 151 00:09:41,676 --> 00:09:46,796 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean so. One is that cinics unfortunately live 152 00:09:47,156 --> 00:09:49,956 Speaker 2: far less healthy lives, even at a physical level, so 153 00:09:50,396 --> 00:09:54,156 Speaker 2: they tend to show greater signs of cellular aging and inflammation. 154 00:09:54,796 --> 00:09:58,036 Speaker 2: They tend to develop heart disease more than nonsnics and 155 00:09:58,076 --> 00:10:01,476 Speaker 2: even die younger than non cynics. And I think this 156 00:10:01,596 --> 00:10:05,916 Speaker 2: comes from the fact that cynics have a harder time 157 00:10:05,996 --> 00:10:08,996 Speaker 2: tapping into one of the things that de stresses and 158 00:10:09,116 --> 00:10:13,836 Speaker 2: it nourishes us the most connection to other people. There's 159 00:10:13,916 --> 00:10:18,116 Speaker 2: one really fascinating study where researchers brought people in the 160 00:10:18,196 --> 00:10:21,516 Speaker 2: lab and asked them to give an extemporaneous speech on 161 00:10:21,556 --> 00:10:23,836 Speaker 2: a topic they didn't know very well, which of course 162 00:10:23,916 --> 00:10:27,476 Speaker 2: is not pleasant for anybody. And in some cases people 163 00:10:27,516 --> 00:10:30,476 Speaker 2: had a cheerleader, a friendly stranger who was with them 164 00:10:30,476 --> 00:10:33,156 Speaker 2: while they prepared and said, you've got this. I believe 165 00:10:33,196 --> 00:10:36,356 Speaker 2: in you. And in other cases they were alone. Now, 166 00:10:36,956 --> 00:10:40,076 Speaker 2: for noncnics, their blood pressure went up when they were 167 00:10:40,116 --> 00:10:42,156 Speaker 2: preparing this speech, that would happen for any of us. 168 00:10:42,276 --> 00:10:44,796 Speaker 2: But when they had a supportive stranger there, their blood 169 00:10:44,796 --> 00:10:48,356 Speaker 2: pressure went up a lot less. For cynics, having a 170 00:10:48,356 --> 00:10:51,276 Speaker 2: supportive person there didn't make a difference at all. So 171 00:10:51,356 --> 00:10:53,796 Speaker 2: their blood pressure increased just as much if they were 172 00:10:53,796 --> 00:10:56,756 Speaker 2: alone or if somebody was there to help them. That 173 00:10:56,876 --> 00:10:59,196 Speaker 2: is so telling to me. It almost strikes me that 174 00:10:59,396 --> 00:11:02,556 Speaker 2: if you're cynical, if you don't believe in people, then 175 00:11:02,916 --> 00:11:07,916 Speaker 2: you kind of can't digest or metabolize the social nourishment 176 00:11:08,276 --> 00:11:10,916 Speaker 2: of connection. And I think that that's just such a 177 00:11:10,956 --> 00:11:11,876 Speaker 2: tragic way to live. 178 00:11:12,236 --> 00:11:17,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, so much of your book I see as mythbusting cynicism. 179 00:11:17,916 --> 00:11:22,396 Speaker 1: And so what are some common misconceptions that people have 180 00:11:22,916 --> 00:11:23,756 Speaker 1: about cynicism. 181 00:11:25,276 --> 00:11:27,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, this was one of the things that was most 182 00:11:27,636 --> 00:11:31,356 Speaker 2: surprising for me when I started doing this research, because 183 00:11:31,356 --> 00:11:34,916 Speaker 2: I thought to myself, Wow, cynicism feels terrible. It's awful 184 00:11:34,956 --> 00:11:37,756 Speaker 2: for our health and relationships, it's not very good for 185 00:11:37,796 --> 00:11:42,236 Speaker 2: our communities. Why are so many people adopting this as 186 00:11:42,276 --> 00:11:44,716 Speaker 2: a view of life and as a view of humanity. 187 00:11:45,236 --> 00:11:48,596 Speaker 2: And there are three myths that I realized our culture 188 00:11:48,636 --> 00:11:53,316 Speaker 2: propagates about cynicism. The first is that it's wise. Now, 189 00:11:53,396 --> 00:11:55,916 Speaker 2: over the last three years since starting this project, I've 190 00:11:55,916 --> 00:11:59,596 Speaker 2: talked to so many self proclaimed cynics, and one thing 191 00:11:59,636 --> 00:12:03,396 Speaker 2: that they have in common, besides hostility and a little 192 00:12:03,396 --> 00:12:07,476 Speaker 2: bit of contempt, is a sort of bitter pride. A 193 00:12:07,516 --> 00:12:10,236 Speaker 2: lot of cynics will say, I'm actually a realist. You 194 00:12:10,316 --> 00:12:13,596 Speaker 2: know that if you don't think in cynical terms, you're 195 00:12:13,756 --> 00:12:17,876 Speaker 2: a naive roub or a chump. That if you pay 196 00:12:17,916 --> 00:12:21,836 Speaker 2: close enough attention and become wise enough, then you will 197 00:12:21,876 --> 00:12:25,796 Speaker 2: realize that people are really terrible. And in fact, it's 198 00:12:25,836 --> 00:12:29,436 Speaker 2: not just cynics who think this. Surveys find that seventy 199 00:12:29,476 --> 00:12:33,116 Speaker 2: percent of people think that cynics are smarter than non cynics, 200 00:12:33,596 --> 00:12:36,796 Speaker 2: and eighty five percent of people think that cynics are 201 00:12:36,996 --> 00:12:39,916 Speaker 2: more socially smart, for instance, that they'll be better at 202 00:12:39,956 --> 00:12:43,436 Speaker 2: picking out liars than nonsnics. It turns out that that's 203 00:12:43,756 --> 00:12:47,356 Speaker 2: not true. So there's data from hundreds of thousands of people, 204 00:12:47,836 --> 00:12:51,676 Speaker 2: lots of national surveys that finds that cnics actually perform 205 00:12:51,756 --> 00:12:55,076 Speaker 2: less well on cognitive tests. Than non cynics, and there 206 00:12:55,156 --> 00:12:57,916 Speaker 2: is other research that finds that cynics are worse at 207 00:12:57,996 --> 00:13:02,436 Speaker 2: spotting liars than non cynics. So it's important to know 208 00:13:02,476 --> 00:13:05,956 Speaker 2: that that perception of cynicism as a type of intelligence 209 00:13:06,396 --> 00:13:08,716 Speaker 2: is clearly at odds with the data. 210 00:13:09,596 --> 00:13:11,916 Speaker 1: Let's talk a bit more about some of the other 211 00:13:11,996 --> 00:13:14,196 Speaker 1: misconceptions we have about cynicism. 212 00:13:14,836 --> 00:13:18,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that another misconception that I think people 213 00:13:18,716 --> 00:13:21,796 Speaker 2: have about cynicism is that it's safe. You know, I 214 00:13:21,836 --> 00:13:25,196 Speaker 2: think a lot of us who feel cynical about others 215 00:13:25,756 --> 00:13:30,516 Speaker 2: feel that way because we've been hurt, betrayed, disappointed, you know. 216 00:13:30,596 --> 00:13:34,516 Speaker 2: I know for me, my cynicism comes from a lot 217 00:13:34,516 --> 00:13:37,036 Speaker 2: of early parts of my life where I didn't feel 218 00:13:37,036 --> 00:13:39,036 Speaker 2: like I could really count on people. And so it's 219 00:13:39,116 --> 00:13:41,276 Speaker 2: not saying that I feel because I think I'm superior 220 00:13:41,356 --> 00:13:44,836 Speaker 2: to others or because I want to have a negative attitude. 221 00:13:45,076 --> 00:13:48,236 Speaker 2: It's sort of a response to pain. And one response 222 00:13:48,276 --> 00:13:50,476 Speaker 2: that we might have to pain is to put our 223 00:13:50,516 --> 00:13:52,676 Speaker 2: guard up to feel like, well, I never want to 224 00:13:52,676 --> 00:13:55,716 Speaker 2: experience that again. I don't want to be betrayed or 225 00:13:55,756 --> 00:13:58,876 Speaker 2: hurt again. And the only way I can guarantee my 226 00:13:58,996 --> 00:14:03,036 Speaker 2: own safety moving forward is to shut off any type 227 00:14:03,036 --> 00:14:06,516 Speaker 2: of social risk. And that's why I think you often 228 00:14:06,556 --> 00:14:09,676 Speaker 2: see cynics not willing to trust people because they don't 229 00:14:09,716 --> 00:14:12,996 Speaker 2: want to risk betrayal, They don't want to risk being 230 00:14:13,036 --> 00:14:13,996 Speaker 2: taken advantage of. 231 00:14:14,916 --> 00:14:18,316 Speaker 1: No. I totally appreciate that. Why don't we cover genial 232 00:14:18,476 --> 00:14:22,356 Speaker 1: The third misconception that people have when it comes to cynicism. 233 00:14:23,036 --> 00:14:27,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, the third misconception around cynicism is the idea that 234 00:14:27,356 --> 00:14:32,196 Speaker 2: cynicism is moral, that that really it's so important to 235 00:14:32,916 --> 00:14:37,956 Speaker 2: be aware of injustice, corruption and harm, and that cynics 236 00:14:37,996 --> 00:14:42,036 Speaker 2: are the only ones who are adequately responsive to all 237 00:14:42,116 --> 00:14:44,876 Speaker 2: the terrible things that happen in the world, and as 238 00:14:44,876 --> 00:14:48,716 Speaker 2: a result, that being hopeful or positive is kind of 239 00:14:48,756 --> 00:14:52,676 Speaker 2: an abandonment of our species and our problems, that it's 240 00:14:52,716 --> 00:14:55,396 Speaker 2: a pair of rose colored glasses. You know, when I 241 00:14:55,476 --> 00:14:58,956 Speaker 2: talk about hope and overcoming cynicism, a lot of people say, well, 242 00:14:58,956 --> 00:15:03,276 Speaker 2: that's rich coming from you, an ultra privileged professor at 243 00:15:03,316 --> 00:15:05,876 Speaker 2: an elite university. You know, a lot of us don't 244 00:15:05,916 --> 00:15:09,756 Speaker 2: have the luxury of feeling good about humanity. We have 245 00:15:09,836 --> 00:15:15,276 Speaker 2: to speak truth to power and challenge injustice. And first 246 00:15:15,316 --> 00:15:19,556 Speaker 2: of all, I think cynics might see injustice just like 247 00:15:19,596 --> 00:15:23,116 Speaker 2: the rest of us do, but cynicism suggests that there's 248 00:15:23,196 --> 00:15:25,196 Speaker 2: nothing really to be done about it, because if a 249 00:15:25,236 --> 00:15:30,036 Speaker 2: broken system reflects our broken nature, if the worst of 250 00:15:30,156 --> 00:15:34,116 Speaker 2: us is who we really are, than any change, any 251 00:15:34,156 --> 00:15:36,996 Speaker 2: attempt to improve the world or the systems that we 252 00:15:37,036 --> 00:15:40,596 Speaker 2: live in, is doomed from the outset. And so you 253 00:15:40,636 --> 00:15:44,076 Speaker 2: actually see more cynical people are less likely to take 254 00:15:44,156 --> 00:15:47,596 Speaker 2: part in social movements, they're less likely to vote, they're 255 00:15:47,636 --> 00:15:50,556 Speaker 2: more willing to do things like spread conspiracy theories. And 256 00:15:50,596 --> 00:15:55,556 Speaker 2: in fact, I think that autocrats and authoritarians often benefit 257 00:15:55,836 --> 00:15:59,356 Speaker 2: from cynicism and use it as a way of promoting 258 00:15:59,356 --> 00:16:02,516 Speaker 2: the status quo. I mean, a population that doesn't trust 259 00:16:02,596 --> 00:16:05,756 Speaker 2: itself is an easy one to manipulate. 260 00:16:05,956 --> 00:16:08,836 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Do you think there's an element of guilt? 261 00:16:09,236 --> 00:16:16,876 Speaker 1: Do people feel guilty when they express optimism? Because it 262 00:16:17,036 --> 00:16:19,556 Speaker 1: just feels jarring when you see all the pain and 263 00:16:19,596 --> 00:16:20,596 Speaker 1: suffering around you. 264 00:16:21,676 --> 00:16:24,636 Speaker 2: This is such a deep question, and I do want 265 00:16:24,636 --> 00:16:28,236 Speaker 2: to separate optimism from hope here. Yeah, Optimism is the 266 00:16:28,316 --> 00:16:31,676 Speaker 2: idea that things will turn out well. Hope is the 267 00:16:31,756 --> 00:16:35,236 Speaker 2: idea that they could turn out well. And I think 268 00:16:35,396 --> 00:16:39,516 Speaker 2: that's a huge distinction, because optimism can lead a little 269 00:16:39,556 --> 00:16:41,876 Speaker 2: bit to complacency. You know, if things are going to 270 00:16:41,956 --> 00:16:44,196 Speaker 2: go great, then I don't really have to do anything 271 00:16:44,236 --> 00:16:46,836 Speaker 2: to make a difference. And in fact, I think that 272 00:16:47,476 --> 00:16:50,436 Speaker 2: what you could call toxic optimism is not that different 273 00:16:50,436 --> 00:16:53,236 Speaker 2: from cynicism. If cynics think, well, things are going to 274 00:16:53,236 --> 00:16:55,836 Speaker 2: go terribly no matter what I do, they can also 275 00:16:56,196 --> 00:16:56,956 Speaker 2: be complacent. 276 00:16:57,236 --> 00:16:59,156 Speaker 1: Yeah, an optimists are like, things are going to go 277 00:16:59,196 --> 00:17:00,676 Speaker 1: great no matter what I do, so I'm not going 278 00:17:00,716 --> 00:17:01,276 Speaker 1: to do anything. 279 00:17:01,716 --> 00:17:05,116 Speaker 2: So you've got two groups of people who have fundamentally 280 00:17:05,156 --> 00:17:08,076 Speaker 2: different beliefs, but neither one of them might be inspired 281 00:17:08,116 --> 00:17:12,476 Speaker 2: to do much. Hope takes the deep uncertainty that we 282 00:17:12,556 --> 00:17:16,276 Speaker 2: have about the future as the place where our actions matter, 283 00:17:16,956 --> 00:17:21,716 Speaker 2: and so hopeful people tend to focus on their agency 284 00:17:22,356 --> 00:17:24,556 Speaker 2: and they think, well, there's a vision of the world 285 00:17:24,596 --> 00:17:26,996 Speaker 2: where things could be better. I'm not saying that's what 286 00:17:27,116 --> 00:17:31,116 Speaker 2: will happen, but it's a possibility, and in order for 287 00:17:31,196 --> 00:17:34,436 Speaker 2: that possibility to become more likely, I need to take action. 288 00:17:35,156 --> 00:17:39,596 Speaker 2: Hopeful individuals, for instance, tend to be more resilient during adversity. 289 00:17:40,156 --> 00:17:44,996 Speaker 2: Lower socio economic and underrepresented minority students who have hope, 290 00:17:45,036 --> 00:17:49,556 Speaker 2: are more likely to pursue their academic goals, and socially 291 00:17:49,596 --> 00:17:53,756 Speaker 2: as well, Hopeful people are more willing to engage in protests. 292 00:17:53,996 --> 00:17:57,796 Speaker 2: A protest is not a complacent, rose colored glasses type 293 00:17:57,796 --> 00:18:00,876 Speaker 2: of thing to do. It's taking major problems head on. 294 00:18:01,356 --> 00:18:03,716 Speaker 2: But why do we take those problems head on? Because 295 00:18:03,756 --> 00:18:06,996 Speaker 2: we think that there's a difference to be made. 296 00:18:07,116 --> 00:18:11,876 Speaker 1: You advocate in your book for quote, Unlearning Cynicism, and 297 00:18:12,716 --> 00:18:17,596 Speaker 1: you introduce this concept of hopeful skepticism. You've already explained 298 00:18:17,596 --> 00:18:20,116 Speaker 1: how hope is different from optimism. Can you explain what 299 00:18:20,156 --> 00:18:22,156 Speaker 1: you mean by hopeful skepticism. 300 00:18:22,716 --> 00:18:26,116 Speaker 2: One of the most important things that I learned in 301 00:18:26,556 --> 00:18:30,516 Speaker 2: doing research for this project was the difference between cynicism 302 00:18:30,556 --> 00:18:33,396 Speaker 2: and skepticism. You know, as we've talked about, cynicism is 303 00:18:33,436 --> 00:18:36,276 Speaker 2: a theory about the world. Well as you know as 304 00:18:36,316 --> 00:18:38,676 Speaker 2: a scientist, once you have a theory, you start to 305 00:18:38,756 --> 00:18:41,916 Speaker 2: kind of see it everywhere and even want to support it, 306 00:18:42,276 --> 00:18:44,996 Speaker 2: and so there can be some confirmation bias around theories, 307 00:18:45,036 --> 00:18:48,116 Speaker 2: and cynics often have a biased way of looking at 308 00:18:48,116 --> 00:18:50,156 Speaker 2: the world. They almost look at it like lawyers, right, 309 00:18:50,276 --> 00:18:53,756 Speaker 2: and the prosecution against humanity. They really pay lots of 310 00:18:53,796 --> 00:18:56,356 Speaker 2: attention to the terrible things that people do, or they 311 00:18:56,436 --> 00:19:01,756 Speaker 2: might explain away the others' kindness and trustworthiness. Skepticism is 312 00:19:02,636 --> 00:19:05,876 Speaker 2: not thinking like a lawyer, but thinking like a scientist. 313 00:19:06,516 --> 00:19:10,436 Speaker 2: Skeptics don't necessarily have some huge, huge assumption or theory 314 00:19:10,476 --> 00:19:14,556 Speaker 2: about what people are like. Instead, they look for evidence. 315 00:19:15,036 --> 00:19:19,596 Speaker 2: They're unwilling to rest on early and easy judgments, and 316 00:19:19,676 --> 00:19:24,396 Speaker 2: because of that, skepticism is really different from cynicism, and skeptics, 317 00:19:24,516 --> 00:19:29,796 Speaker 2: unlike cinics, can learn really quickly, can adapt to new situations, 318 00:19:30,116 --> 00:19:34,396 Speaker 2: and become much more accurate about people than cinics do. 319 00:19:35,636 --> 00:19:38,636 Speaker 1: One of the quotes that I really enjoyed from your book, 320 00:19:38,716 --> 00:19:42,156 Speaker 1: and I thought articulated the point well, is that hope 321 00:19:42,236 --> 00:19:45,036 Speaker 1: is not a naive way of approaching the world. It's 322 00:19:45,076 --> 00:19:48,276 Speaker 1: an accurate response to the best data available. 323 00:19:49,276 --> 00:19:52,396 Speaker 2: It's really a point I want to drive home because 324 00:19:52,796 --> 00:19:54,756 Speaker 2: a lot of people when they hear hope, they think 325 00:19:54,756 --> 00:19:56,676 Speaker 2: of somebody with their head in the sand. They think 326 00:19:56,676 --> 00:20:01,836 Speaker 2: of somebody ignoring data as opposed to approaching data. One 327 00:20:01,876 --> 00:20:05,236 Speaker 2: of the important points, though, and the reason that I 328 00:20:05,276 --> 00:20:09,316 Speaker 2: call it hopeful skepticism, is because our default tends to 329 00:20:09,356 --> 00:20:13,836 Speaker 2: be negative. When you adopt a skeptical perspective, you do 330 00:20:13,956 --> 00:20:18,236 Speaker 2: tend to move towards a slightly more hopeful and positive 331 00:20:18,276 --> 00:20:21,996 Speaker 2: place because you're correcting for the biases that we already have. 332 00:20:22,036 --> 00:20:24,036 Speaker 2: People always say, what you want me to put on 333 00:20:24,076 --> 00:20:26,556 Speaker 2: a pair of rose colored glasses, and I say, no, 334 00:20:27,076 --> 00:20:30,396 Speaker 2: you're probably already wearing a pair of glasses that's like 335 00:20:30,516 --> 00:20:33,596 Speaker 2: mud colored, So just take those off right, so that 336 00:20:33,876 --> 00:20:36,876 Speaker 2: I'm actually not asking people to pay less attention, but 337 00:20:36,996 --> 00:20:41,996 Speaker 2: to pay more attention to the folks around them. 338 00:20:42,276 --> 00:20:46,276 Speaker 1: After the break, Jamil teaches us how to practice hopeful skepticism. 339 00:20:46,836 --> 00:20:48,916 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 340 00:20:48,916 --> 00:21:02,916 Speaker 1: of plans, Jimil. The hopeful part of all this is 341 00:21:02,956 --> 00:21:06,556 Speaker 1: that hopeful skepticism is in fact a skill that we 342 00:21:06,596 --> 00:21:08,796 Speaker 1: can build. So why don't we talk a bit about 343 00:21:08,796 --> 00:21:11,796 Speaker 1: how it is that we can build that muscle. In 344 00:21:11,836 --> 00:21:15,036 Speaker 1: your book, you have this wonderful practical guide, and I'm 345 00:21:15,076 --> 00:21:18,996 Speaker 1: hoping that we can share with listeners a few examples 346 00:21:19,076 --> 00:21:22,596 Speaker 1: of some of these overarching strategies. The first you say 347 00:21:22,756 --> 00:21:26,956 Speaker 1: is to connect with your core values. Tell me what 348 00:21:26,996 --> 00:21:27,556 Speaker 1: that looks like. 349 00:21:28,036 --> 00:21:30,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. It turns out that although 350 00:21:31,676 --> 00:21:35,756 Speaker 2: cynics have a lot of judgment and contempt for other people. 351 00:21:36,596 --> 00:21:39,676 Speaker 2: They also tend to say that they rely on other 352 00:21:39,716 --> 00:21:43,956 Speaker 2: people more for their sense of self worth the non cynics. 353 00:21:44,196 --> 00:21:47,196 Speaker 2: So there's a sense that when we can't trust ourselves 354 00:21:47,956 --> 00:21:51,476 Speaker 2: very deeply, it's hard to trust others. Yeah, it turns 355 00:21:51,476 --> 00:21:55,476 Speaker 2: out that one of the best ways to start overcoming 356 00:21:55,516 --> 00:21:59,516 Speaker 2: cynicism is to connect in new ways to ourselves. My 357 00:21:59,596 --> 00:22:03,116 Speaker 2: colleague at Stanford, Jeff Cohen, has a lot of work 358 00:22:03,156 --> 00:22:07,236 Speaker 2: on this through what he calls values affirmation. So values 359 00:22:07,236 --> 00:22:11,196 Speaker 2: affirmation is where you so consider what matters most to 360 00:22:11,236 --> 00:22:13,316 Speaker 2: you in life. You'll see a list of, for instance, 361 00:22:13,356 --> 00:22:15,796 Speaker 2: twenty things that people often say they care a lot about, 362 00:22:15,836 --> 00:22:17,636 Speaker 2: and you'll be asked, well, what are your top three 363 00:22:17,876 --> 00:22:20,276 Speaker 2: or what's your top one, And then you're asked to 364 00:22:20,276 --> 00:22:22,996 Speaker 2: write about, well, why does it matter to you and 365 00:22:23,036 --> 00:22:25,396 Speaker 2: what are some ways that you express that value in 366 00:22:25,436 --> 00:22:28,676 Speaker 2: your life. And it turns out that this simple exercise, 367 00:22:28,956 --> 00:22:31,876 Speaker 2: just ten fifteen minutes of writing about what really matters 368 00:22:31,876 --> 00:22:35,356 Speaker 2: to you and how you live your values, instills a 369 00:22:35,436 --> 00:22:38,036 Speaker 2: kind of deep confidence in people. I'm not talking about 370 00:22:38,276 --> 00:22:43,596 Speaker 2: braggadocious arrogance, but rather a sense of sturdiness, a sense 371 00:22:43,636 --> 00:22:47,076 Speaker 2: of solid foundation, and when we have that sense of 372 00:22:47,116 --> 00:22:51,476 Speaker 2: sturdiness internally, we're more willing to be open to others. 373 00:22:51,996 --> 00:22:54,996 Speaker 2: Jeff finds that when people affirm their own values, they 374 00:22:54,996 --> 00:22:59,116 Speaker 2: feel less threatened by information that conflicts with their beliefs 375 00:22:59,156 --> 00:23:02,156 Speaker 2: and more open minded. And that's why I think it 376 00:23:02,276 --> 00:23:05,476 Speaker 2: might tap us in also to a sense of skepticism 377 00:23:05,916 --> 00:23:08,196 Speaker 2: and hopeful skepticism about other people. 378 00:23:09,276 --> 00:23:11,596 Speaker 1: You talk about this in terms of, you know, better 379 00:23:11,716 --> 00:23:15,516 Speaker 1: connecting to ourselves, and I wonder I'm just thinking out loud. 380 00:23:15,516 --> 00:23:18,476 Speaker 1: I mean, here's one way in which I think increasing 381 00:23:18,516 --> 00:23:20,956 Speaker 1: self compassion could be a vehicle through which we have 382 00:23:20,996 --> 00:23:25,116 Speaker 1: more hope. So when we do fail or we make 383 00:23:25,156 --> 00:23:28,556 Speaker 1: some sort of mistake, we can overconclude from that incident. Right, 384 00:23:28,556 --> 00:23:30,876 Speaker 1: So rather than saying I made a mistake, it's I'm 385 00:23:30,916 --> 00:23:32,436 Speaker 1: a mistake. There's no redemption. 386 00:23:32,556 --> 00:23:33,116 Speaker 2: Yeah. 387 00:23:33,156 --> 00:23:37,716 Speaker 1: And if I have more self compassion and I believe, okay, 388 00:23:37,956 --> 00:23:40,956 Speaker 1: well I made a mistake, I myself not a mistake, 389 00:23:41,396 --> 00:23:44,516 Speaker 1: I might be more willing to assume that posture with 390 00:23:44,596 --> 00:23:46,996 Speaker 1: other people in my life, like, oh, that person hurt me, 391 00:23:47,076 --> 00:23:49,756 Speaker 1: but they might not be like a hurtful person, like 392 00:23:49,796 --> 00:23:52,316 Speaker 1: someone who loves hurting others. They might just have aired 393 00:23:53,276 --> 00:23:54,316 Speaker 1: in a particular way. 394 00:23:54,996 --> 00:23:57,636 Speaker 2: That's beautifully put. I love that. And I think there's 395 00:23:58,196 --> 00:24:02,356 Speaker 2: a lot of evidence that when we judge people in 396 00:24:02,396 --> 00:24:05,876 Speaker 2: a trait based way, we see an action that they 397 00:24:05,916 --> 00:24:09,996 Speaker 2: take and we decide that action defines them. That closes 398 00:24:10,076 --> 00:24:12,556 Speaker 2: us off not just to compassion for that person, but 399 00:24:12,636 --> 00:24:15,396 Speaker 2: it makes it very easy for us to think cynically 400 00:24:15,396 --> 00:24:19,076 Speaker 2: about that individual. In fact, cynicism is a sort of 401 00:24:19,156 --> 00:24:21,596 Speaker 2: fixed view of humanity. 402 00:24:21,196 --> 00:24:23,876 Speaker 1: Right, exactly. That's what I'm trying to get at. It's like, yeah, yeah, 403 00:24:23,916 --> 00:24:25,956 Speaker 1: there is actually hope for this person to change, because 404 00:24:25,996 --> 00:24:28,236 Speaker 1: I think I can change. I love that. 405 00:24:28,436 --> 00:24:29,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I think that's right. 406 00:24:29,996 --> 00:24:33,116 Speaker 1: Let's go to the second strategy for building hopeful skepticism, 407 00:24:33,236 --> 00:24:36,676 Speaker 1: and you say that is to be skeptical of your cynicism. 408 00:24:36,756 --> 00:24:38,756 Speaker 1: So tell me a bit more about what that process 409 00:24:38,756 --> 00:24:39,316 Speaker 1: can look like. 410 00:24:40,596 --> 00:24:43,916 Speaker 2: This is something that I drew in trying to overcome 411 00:24:43,916 --> 00:24:50,436 Speaker 2: my own cynicism from tools in cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT. Right, So, 412 00:24:50,596 --> 00:24:55,236 Speaker 2: when I started CBT in my twenties, my therapist told me, Okay, 413 00:24:55,596 --> 00:24:58,716 Speaker 2: what are your beliefs about yourself and about the world. 414 00:24:58,836 --> 00:25:02,596 Speaker 2: Write them down and then try to think about them scientifically. 415 00:25:02,676 --> 00:25:05,756 Speaker 2: What evidence do you have to support them? And I 416 00:25:05,796 --> 00:25:08,756 Speaker 2: wrote down some of my very negative beliefs at the time. 417 00:25:09,196 --> 00:25:12,596 Speaker 2: At the time, I really felt like if I am 418 00:25:12,676 --> 00:25:17,436 Speaker 2: not positive all the time, people won't like me. That 419 00:25:17,556 --> 00:25:21,156 Speaker 2: I need to entertain or provide people with good vibes 420 00:25:21,636 --> 00:25:23,836 Speaker 2: in order for them to stay in my life. I 421 00:25:23,836 --> 00:25:28,036 Speaker 2: felt like expressing that true self when my true self 422 00:25:28,196 --> 00:25:33,676 Speaker 2: was unattractive or gloomy, would lead people to flee. But 423 00:25:33,796 --> 00:25:35,876 Speaker 2: I had no evidence for it because I had never 424 00:25:35,916 --> 00:25:38,876 Speaker 2: really tried. I had never been open with other people 425 00:25:38,916 --> 00:25:42,156 Speaker 2: about what I was going through or feeling. And so 426 00:25:42,556 --> 00:25:44,836 Speaker 2: my therapist then said, Okay, you've got this belief, you 427 00:25:44,876 --> 00:25:48,116 Speaker 2: don't have any evidence for it. Why don't you collect 428 00:25:48,156 --> 00:25:52,756 Speaker 2: some data, Why don't you try to test your hypotheses? 429 00:25:53,396 --> 00:25:57,596 Speaker 2: And both of these steps understanding what our beliefs are 430 00:25:57,876 --> 00:26:00,156 Speaker 2: and whether we have evidence for them and then testing 431 00:26:00,196 --> 00:26:05,036 Speaker 2: them could be tools for being skeptical of our own cynicism. 432 00:26:05,436 --> 00:26:08,276 Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder how that played out for you, because 433 00:26:08,876 --> 00:26:11,036 Speaker 1: I own your book. You said people used to call 434 00:26:11,076 --> 00:26:14,556 Speaker 1: you Guy Smiley, so you were definitely battling a pretty 435 00:26:14,596 --> 00:26:18,796 Speaker 1: strong reputation so what steps did you take to test 436 00:26:18,876 --> 00:26:22,156 Speaker 1: out this theory that you had to be a certain 437 00:26:22,196 --> 00:26:23,396 Speaker 1: way in order to be liked. 438 00:26:23,956 --> 00:26:27,756 Speaker 2: One example from more recently, a few years ago now, 439 00:26:27,796 --> 00:26:31,436 Speaker 2: a couple of new faculty members joined my department and 440 00:26:31,516 --> 00:26:34,516 Speaker 2: we went out for drinks and they said, well, what's 441 00:26:34,556 --> 00:26:37,076 Speaker 2: it like to be a professor here at Stanford? And 442 00:26:37,316 --> 00:26:40,356 Speaker 2: you know, I had my guy smiley response already, you know, 443 00:26:40,436 --> 00:26:42,396 Speaker 2: it's the best job in the world. I can't believe it. 444 00:26:42,636 --> 00:26:46,956 Speaker 2: But instead I decided to answer honestly, and I said, 445 00:26:47,516 --> 00:26:51,036 Speaker 2: it's terrifying. You know, you you never feel like you 446 00:26:51,116 --> 00:26:54,636 Speaker 2: deserved this job, because nobody really deserves it. You have 447 00:26:54,716 --> 00:26:58,876 Speaker 2: to be so lucky to get here, and it's incredibly 448 00:26:58,916 --> 00:27:01,236 Speaker 2: easy to feel like an impostor and to feel like 449 00:27:01,316 --> 00:27:05,836 Speaker 2: any mistake you make is just proof that the university 450 00:27:05,836 --> 00:27:08,996 Speaker 2: made a mistake in hiring you. And I still remember 451 00:27:09,276 --> 00:27:13,036 Speaker 2: the seconds of silence that followed this, you know, rant 452 00:27:13,156 --> 00:27:15,356 Speaker 2: that these people had not asked for and our first 453 00:27:15,396 --> 00:27:18,596 Speaker 2: time hanging out, and they felt like ours to me. 454 00:27:18,676 --> 00:27:22,636 Speaker 2: And I also remember the relief that poured out of 455 00:27:22,676 --> 00:27:25,156 Speaker 2: these new faculty members. They said, Wow, it means so 456 00:27:25,276 --> 00:27:29,956 Speaker 2: much to hear somebody who we see as succeeding open 457 00:27:30,076 --> 00:27:33,116 Speaker 2: up about this, and we ended up becoming really fast friends. 458 00:27:33,156 --> 00:27:36,396 Speaker 2: And even now years later, we get together about once 459 00:27:36,436 --> 00:27:39,236 Speaker 2: a quarter and we have something called beer and wine 460 00:27:39,276 --> 00:27:42,116 Speaker 2: where we drink beer and wine, but with an h 461 00:27:42,276 --> 00:27:45,756 Speaker 2: you know, we complain and vent and open up and again. 462 00:27:45,876 --> 00:27:50,516 Speaker 2: So for me, being positive was inauthentic. Sometimes it was 463 00:27:50,556 --> 00:27:55,756 Speaker 2: a defense mechanism, and being honest about my struggles showed 464 00:27:55,796 --> 00:27:59,756 Speaker 2: that I believed in the people around me. I believed 465 00:27:59,796 --> 00:28:03,036 Speaker 2: that they would have my back, and more often than 466 00:28:03,076 --> 00:28:06,996 Speaker 2: not they did. So the experiments that I did in 467 00:28:07,036 --> 00:28:10,396 Speaker 2: my life, the data came back shockingly positive. 468 00:28:11,036 --> 00:28:15,236 Speaker 1: Yeah. So the final strategy is to practice what you 469 00:28:15,316 --> 00:28:17,996 Speaker 1: call social saving. Tell me more. 470 00:28:18,996 --> 00:28:23,076 Speaker 2: Yeah. Savoring is generally the practice of appreciating good things 471 00:28:23,076 --> 00:28:27,836 Speaker 2: as they happen, and it's related to, but distinct from gratitude, 472 00:28:27,876 --> 00:28:31,436 Speaker 2: which is generally appreciating the good things that have happened. 473 00:28:31,956 --> 00:28:35,316 Speaker 2: So I practice savoring a lot with my kids. We 474 00:28:35,356 --> 00:28:39,996 Speaker 2: will do things like ice cream eating class or sunset 475 00:28:40,076 --> 00:28:43,796 Speaker 2: watching class, where we will enjoy something, but we'll enjoy 476 00:28:43,836 --> 00:28:46,676 Speaker 2: it very carefully. I'll say, well, what do you like 477 00:28:46,716 --> 00:28:49,556 Speaker 2: about how this tastes or the texture of the ice cream. 478 00:28:49,556 --> 00:28:51,996 Speaker 2: What do you want to remember about this moment? Just 479 00:28:52,436 --> 00:28:55,436 Speaker 2: pointing our awareness towards the good things in our lives. 480 00:28:55,956 --> 00:29:00,516 Speaker 2: And social savoring is in essence, taking that same general strategy, 481 00:29:00,556 --> 00:29:03,476 Speaker 2: but pointing it towards other people. And so for me, 482 00:29:03,636 --> 00:29:08,356 Speaker 2: social saving has two parts. One is paying attention to 483 00:29:08,516 --> 00:29:12,556 Speaker 2: and looking for examples of people doing good in the world. 484 00:29:12,636 --> 00:29:15,036 Speaker 2: And I'm not talking about heroics that you see in 485 00:29:15,076 --> 00:29:17,156 Speaker 2: the news. I'm talking about walking around a city and 486 00:29:17,196 --> 00:29:20,876 Speaker 2: seeing people pick up litter or helping somebody who's in need, 487 00:29:20,996 --> 00:29:24,956 Speaker 2: for instance. The second part of social savoring is not 488 00:29:25,036 --> 00:29:28,316 Speaker 2: just to notice the goodness that's all around us all 489 00:29:28,316 --> 00:29:31,916 Speaker 2: the time, but to share it. When you socially savor 490 00:29:32,116 --> 00:29:35,716 Speaker 2: with others, you help fight their cynicism. But you also 491 00:29:35,876 --> 00:29:38,556 Speaker 2: in changing what you say, change the way that you think, 492 00:29:38,956 --> 00:29:41,796 Speaker 2: your habits of speech become habits of mind, and help 493 00:29:42,196 --> 00:29:44,476 Speaker 2: kind of pop up in antenna in your own mind 494 00:29:44,596 --> 00:29:47,116 Speaker 2: for the goodness of others, which of course is not 495 00:29:47,156 --> 00:29:49,996 Speaker 2: that hard to find once you start to look for it. Yeah. 496 00:29:50,116 --> 00:29:52,836 Speaker 1: Yeah. One lesson I internalized early for my mom is, 497 00:29:53,036 --> 00:29:56,636 Speaker 1: especially when engaging with people in the service industries, they're 498 00:29:56,676 --> 00:29:59,316 Speaker 1: always hearing complaints and so her goal is always to 499 00:29:59,356 --> 00:30:03,036 Speaker 1: counteract that by every time she has a really positive experience, 500 00:30:03,396 --> 00:30:05,636 Speaker 1: making sure she calls in the manager and says, you know, 501 00:30:05,716 --> 00:30:07,876 Speaker 1: so and so is so amazing and so excellent and 502 00:30:07,916 --> 00:30:10,716 Speaker 1: so just the other day flying back from New York, 503 00:30:10,836 --> 00:30:13,556 Speaker 1: and our flight attendant was just so kind, and I 504 00:30:13,596 --> 00:30:14,796 Speaker 1: just called her over and I was like, Hey, I 505 00:30:14,796 --> 00:30:16,836 Speaker 1: just need you to know you are such a kind, 506 00:30:17,596 --> 00:30:20,036 Speaker 1: cheerful presence. And it's made my day and it's made 507 00:30:20,036 --> 00:30:23,316 Speaker 1: this flight so much better. And I thought in that 508 00:30:23,356 --> 00:30:26,316 Speaker 1: moment about the impact that sharing that with her would 509 00:30:26,356 --> 00:30:28,476 Speaker 1: have on her. But I didn't think in that moment 510 00:30:28,476 --> 00:30:30,196 Speaker 1: about what you're sharing with me now, which is what 511 00:30:30,276 --> 00:30:33,516 Speaker 1: impact it probably had on me and my view of humanity. 512 00:30:34,876 --> 00:30:37,796 Speaker 2: I love that. It's a lot. I mean, our culture 513 00:30:37,916 --> 00:30:41,036 Speaker 2: is so full of people giving life one star reviews 514 00:30:41,116 --> 00:30:44,356 Speaker 2: on Yelcha you and I'm giving all the people around 515 00:30:44,356 --> 00:30:47,516 Speaker 2: them one star reviews. But if that's all we do, 516 00:30:47,636 --> 00:30:50,516 Speaker 2: if the loudest conversations we have are about the worst 517 00:30:50,516 --> 00:30:53,636 Speaker 2: things that happen, yeah, then we will end up with 518 00:30:53,676 --> 00:30:56,476 Speaker 2: a skewed view of the world and of each other. 519 00:30:57,556 --> 00:31:00,956 Speaker 1: I'm curious to know how writing this book and engaging 520 00:31:01,316 --> 00:31:05,996 Speaker 1: with the research on hope and cynicism has transformed your 521 00:31:05,996 --> 00:31:08,596 Speaker 1: own outlook on life. Right, So you came into this saying, Okay, 522 00:31:08,676 --> 00:31:12,196 Speaker 1: I'm going to confess that I am a cynic. How 523 00:31:12,196 --> 00:31:13,956 Speaker 1: has it changed the way that you live your life? 524 00:31:13,996 --> 00:31:16,196 Speaker 1: How has it changed your relationship with some of your 525 00:31:16,516 --> 00:31:19,276 Speaker 1: big fears? Yeah, share with me any reflections you have. 526 00:31:20,796 --> 00:31:24,596 Speaker 2: I don't consider myself an ex cynic. I consider myself 527 00:31:24,636 --> 00:31:25,716 Speaker 2: a recovering cynic. 528 00:31:25,836 --> 00:31:26,076 Speaker 1: Yeah. 529 00:31:26,276 --> 00:31:29,036 Speaker 2: Right. In that I work on this all the time, 530 00:31:29,116 --> 00:31:32,276 Speaker 2: I still have the same defaults. I still have the 531 00:31:32,316 --> 00:31:35,716 Speaker 2: same instincts. I think that one of the things that 532 00:31:35,756 --> 00:31:37,876 Speaker 2: this project has changed in me is that I'm more 533 00:31:37,916 --> 00:31:41,396 Speaker 2: aware that when I'm thinking in gloomy or cynical terms, 534 00:31:41,796 --> 00:31:44,236 Speaker 2: that that doesn't mean that I'm right. So I guess 535 00:31:44,276 --> 00:31:47,636 Speaker 2: I trust my cynicism less. I'm more skeptical of it. 536 00:31:47,716 --> 00:31:51,116 Speaker 2: That is something that I can say I've achieved. And 537 00:31:51,156 --> 00:31:55,076 Speaker 2: then this project has changed how I parent. I'm much 538 00:31:55,156 --> 00:32:00,316 Speaker 2: more aware of how even if I'm taking risks, even 539 00:32:00,316 --> 00:32:03,596 Speaker 2: if I'm trusting people, my default is to stop my 540 00:32:03,676 --> 00:32:06,836 Speaker 2: kids from taking any risks and to protect them from 541 00:32:07,276 --> 00:32:10,796 Speaker 2: all sorts of harm, and especially from harmful people. I 542 00:32:10,836 --> 00:32:13,756 Speaker 2: stand by that instinct one thousand percent, but I think 543 00:32:13,796 --> 00:32:18,596 Speaker 2: oftentimes as a parent, my default has been protection over freedom, 544 00:32:18,916 --> 00:32:23,196 Speaker 2: protection over exploration, and protection over learning, and so I've 545 00:32:23,196 --> 00:32:26,356 Speaker 2: been trying to balance that. And so one of our 546 00:32:26,436 --> 00:32:29,876 Speaker 2: daughters is eight years old and we live in the 547 00:32:29,876 --> 00:32:33,196 Speaker 2: middle of a big city here in San Francisco, and 548 00:32:33,596 --> 00:32:37,036 Speaker 2: she really wants to be able to go buy something 549 00:32:37,156 --> 00:32:39,116 Speaker 2: on her own, right. She wants to be able to 550 00:32:39,156 --> 00:32:42,396 Speaker 2: go a couple of blocks and pick something up. And 551 00:32:42,996 --> 00:32:45,756 Speaker 2: we've gone back and forth on this for over a 552 00:32:45,836 --> 00:32:48,996 Speaker 2: year now, and I won't say that she's done it yet, 553 00:32:48,996 --> 00:32:51,196 Speaker 2: but we're on the cusp of doing it. I got 554 00:32:51,196 --> 00:32:54,116 Speaker 2: her some walkie talkies so that she can be in 555 00:32:54,196 --> 00:32:56,876 Speaker 2: contact if she needs us. But you know, before working 556 00:32:56,876 --> 00:32:59,156 Speaker 2: on this project, I would have thought, no way, I'm 557 00:32:59,196 --> 00:33:01,796 Speaker 2: letting her go even two blocks. You know, there's just 558 00:33:01,956 --> 00:33:04,716 Speaker 2: too many people out there who could try to harm her. 559 00:33:04,756 --> 00:33:07,796 Speaker 2: And of course, I want, above and beyond anything in 560 00:33:07,796 --> 00:33:10,516 Speaker 2: the world for my daughter to be safe. But I 561 00:33:10,556 --> 00:33:13,396 Speaker 2: also think now that her going a block or two 562 00:33:13,756 --> 00:33:16,116 Speaker 2: is actually a pretty safe thing to do. It's something 563 00:33:16,116 --> 00:33:20,196 Speaker 2: that children have done for generations, and that keeping her 564 00:33:20,396 --> 00:33:24,076 Speaker 2: from doing that isn't actually keeping her safe, it's in 565 00:33:24,116 --> 00:33:26,556 Speaker 2: fact keeping her from learning about the world and how 566 00:33:26,556 --> 00:33:27,436 Speaker 2: to interact with it. 567 00:33:28,116 --> 00:33:32,036 Speaker 1: Jimille can feel like a huge shift to move from 568 00:33:32,396 --> 00:33:36,836 Speaker 1: cynicisms to hopeful skepticism, especially during the time we live in. 569 00:33:36,916 --> 00:33:38,836 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm thinking about areas of life that I'm 570 00:33:38,876 --> 00:33:41,196 Speaker 1: very cynical about, and it seems like a herculean effort 571 00:33:41,236 --> 00:33:43,356 Speaker 1: to do that, And so I do wonder you can 572 00:33:43,396 --> 00:33:44,556 Speaker 1: talk just a bit about that. 573 00:33:45,636 --> 00:33:48,036 Speaker 2: This is a process of small steps, right, I mean, 574 00:33:48,156 --> 00:33:52,916 Speaker 2: nobody changes fundamentally how they view the world overnight, really 575 00:33:53,036 --> 00:33:57,876 Speaker 2: change fundamental deep change is a process of building new habits, 576 00:33:58,276 --> 00:34:02,556 Speaker 2: little things that we do slightly differently each day. Another 577 00:34:02,596 --> 00:34:06,796 Speaker 2: thing that I'll say is that cynicism is really most 578 00:34:06,876 --> 00:34:11,076 Speaker 2: powerful in the abstract. If you ask people what are 579 00:34:11,236 --> 00:34:14,916 Speaker 2: people like, they're pretty gloomy. But if you ask them 580 00:34:15,236 --> 00:34:17,516 Speaker 2: what are the people in your life like? And I'm 581 00:34:17,556 --> 00:34:19,876 Speaker 2: not saying your friends and family, but the strangers you 582 00:34:19,916 --> 00:34:24,436 Speaker 2: interact with, your grosser, your neighbor, the person you sit 583 00:34:24,516 --> 00:34:26,876 Speaker 2: next to on the bus. If you ask people about 584 00:34:26,916 --> 00:34:31,236 Speaker 2: their actual communities, they're much more bullish. They think that 585 00:34:31,276 --> 00:34:34,436 Speaker 2: those people are very trustworthy, are kind, They think that 586 00:34:34,476 --> 00:34:38,396 Speaker 2: those communities are generally pretty good, and so I think 587 00:34:38,396 --> 00:34:43,596 Speaker 2: it's important to remember that hope oftentimes isn't out there 588 00:34:43,916 --> 00:34:48,236 Speaker 2: in the ether, it's right here all around us, in 589 00:34:48,316 --> 00:34:49,596 Speaker 2: the communities that we live in. 590 00:35:11,476 --> 00:35:14,276 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this 591 00:35:14,356 --> 00:35:17,236 Speaker 1: conversation with Jamil, we on the Slight Change team would 592 00:35:17,276 --> 00:35:19,556 Speaker 1: be so grateful if you could share the episode with 593 00:35:19,636 --> 00:35:22,276 Speaker 1: someone you know, it helps us get the word out 594 00:35:22,316 --> 00:35:25,316 Speaker 1: so we can keep making more episodes for you. And 595 00:35:25,356 --> 00:35:28,516 Speaker 1: if you're looking for more stories of change later this month, 596 00:35:28,556 --> 00:35:31,196 Speaker 1: I'm sharing one of my all time favorite episodes from 597 00:35:31,236 --> 00:35:34,876 Speaker 1: the archives, and we've got some great new episodes coming 598 00:35:34,956 --> 00:35:38,676 Speaker 1: later this fall. And as always, I highly recommend checking 599 00:35:38,716 --> 00:35:42,036 Speaker 1: out the back catalog. That's where you can find Jamil's 600 00:35:42,036 --> 00:35:45,476 Speaker 1: first episode called how to Build Empathy and Avoid Burnout. 601 00:35:46,036 --> 00:35:58,556 Speaker 1: Thanks so much and see you soon. A Slight Change 602 00:35:58,556 --> 00:36:01,676 Speaker 1: of Plans is created, written, and executive produced by me 603 00:36:01,836 --> 00:36:06,396 Speaker 1: Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, 604 00:36:06,836 --> 00:36:11,676 Speaker 1: our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our senior producer Trisha Bobida, 605 00:36:12,036 --> 00:36:16,236 Speaker 1: and our engineer Eric o'huang. Luis Scara wrote our delightful 606 00:36:16,276 --> 00:36:19,956 Speaker 1: theme song and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A 607 00:36:19,996 --> 00:36:22,956 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, 608 00:36:23,196 --> 00:36:26,036 Speaker 1: so a big thanks to everyone there, and of course 609 00:36:26,396 --> 00:36:29,756 Speaker 1: a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow 610 00:36:29,796 --> 00:36:33,076 Speaker 1: a Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. 611 00:36:33,636 --> 00:36:34,436 Speaker 1: See you next week.