1 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newsworld, My guest today would much 2 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,399 Speaker 1: rather talk about bee keeping than politics, befitting a woman 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: for whom faith, family, and community are the central tenets 4 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: of life. Being a political spouse can up end anyone's 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,799 Speaker 1: best laid plans, and her unforeseeing career as wife of 6 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: a congressman, governor, and Vice president has been filled with 7 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:32,279 Speaker 1: both joy and unexpected changes. In her new book, When 8 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: It's Year Turn to Serve, Experiencing God's Grace in His 9 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 1: Calling for Your Life, she shares heartwarming and relatable stories 10 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: about being thrust into the role of leader and how 11 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: she tackled the unpredictable places to which God called her. 12 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, Karen Pence. She's 13 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: a former congressional spouse, first Lady of Indiana, secondly the 14 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: United States. She worked as a school teacher for more 15 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: than thirty years. She's the mother of three children and 16 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: my grandmother. And I have to say that Chlis and 17 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: I regard her as a personal friend and somebody with 18 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: whom we've shared very happy moments. We have the greatest 19 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: fondness for both she and her husband, Vice President Pencil 20 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: Jeron welcome. Thank you for joining me on NEWTSU World. 21 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 2: Well, new thank you so much for having me on 22 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 2: and talking about the book. 23 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: I'm really curious because I think you have placed this 24 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: book in a very important way centered around God and 25 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: God's impact. Could you just share with us a little 26 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: bit how your faith grew in your own life and 27 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: how in the early years it came to really matter. 28 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: I wanted this book to be uplifting. I wanted it 29 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 2: to be encouraging to the reader. There's so many negative 30 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 2: books out there right now, and I really wanted to 31 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 2: talk about the difference that we were able to make 32 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 2: in the first Lady's office in the second Lady's office. 33 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 2: But I did want to give a little background. I mean, 34 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 2: it's not a memoir, but I did want to give 35 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 2: a little background into maybe how my faith started and 36 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 2: how it grew, so that the reader kind of understands 37 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 2: where I'm coming from. My mom remarried when I was 38 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 2: about eleven, and she married a Catholic man, and at 39 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 2: that time I loved going to church. I asked to 40 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 2: be baptized in eighth grade and I just felt this deep, deep, 41 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 2: deep faith which has never left me. And even when 42 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 2: I started dating Mike. I tell a story in the 43 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 2: book that people would say, is she a Christian? Is 44 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 2: she a Christian? Is she a Christian? And I felt 45 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 2: very judged by that. And Mike said, well, what they're 46 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 2: asking is have you given your life to Jesus Christ? 47 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 2: And I said, well, I'm not sure. He asks for everything. 48 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 2: I think I've been raised that was a selfish thing. 49 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 2: And he said no, he really asked for everything. And 50 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 2: I just said, if you can show me that in 51 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 2: the Bible, I'm happy to give him everything. But my 52 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 2: faith has always been very, very deep. It was after 53 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 2: I started dating Mike that my knowledge of the Bible 54 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 2: became deeper. But that's kind of where it starts from. 55 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: So in that sense, when you're faced with a problem, 56 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 1: even today, do you turn to the Bible to try 57 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: to find some solution or some solace. 58 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 2: In fact, when Mike and I were looking at this 59 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 2: decision on whether or not to run for president, we 60 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 2: started in January reading through that Bible you may have seen, 61 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 2: that's called the One Year Bible, where every day it 62 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 2: has readings and by the end of the year you've 63 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 2: read the entire Bible. So each day you have an 64 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 2: Old Testament and a New Testament, and a psalm and 65 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 2: a proverb. And so we sart reading through the Bible 66 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 2: and really felt like God was leading us to serve 67 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: one more time, to make ourselves available. And so I 68 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 2: do think for us. For me, that is what I do. 69 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 2: I look to the Bible. And in fact, I just 70 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 2: have one cause that I've been fundraising for over the 71 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 2: past two years, and it's a Christian high school in Alexandria, Virginia, 72 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 2: and it's a school that is teaching these high school 73 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 2: kids a biblical worldview. When you're wondering, I hear all 74 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 2: these different sides on the news, what should I believe? Like, 75 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 2: what does God teach in his Word? And so they 76 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: have a lot of courses at that school where they 77 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 2: teach the kids. This is how you search the Bible. 78 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 2: This is how you discern what you think God's will 79 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 2: might be. What is the name of the school, Emmanuel 80 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 2: Christian High School. And it's where I taught in the 81 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 2: elementary school for fifteen years. I even taught there while 82 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 2: I was second lady. I was the elementary artis teach. 83 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: People who want to help if they listen to this podcast, 84 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: and they'd like to help, they could go to a 85 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: manual Christian school. 86 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 2: Yes, it's ICs VA for Virginia i CSVA dot org. 87 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: And we'll also put that on our show page for 88 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: people who may want to follow up on and reading this, 89 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 1: I learned some things about you and Mike I didn't know. 90 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about how you met him. 91 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 2: Well, I was playing guitar in a Catholic church, which 92 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 2: I'd done for years, and he came up afterward to 93 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 2: introduce himself to me and said, you know, I'd like 94 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 2: to join that guitar group. And I said, oh, well, 95 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 2: you need to talk to the guy with the beard, 96 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 2: and he said, I'm Mike Fence. So I knew right 97 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 2: then it was a ruse, although he does play the 98 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 2: guitar and he could have followed up if he needed to. 99 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 2: But the interesting thing is that church is right across 100 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 2: the street from the Governor's residence, and it was interesting 101 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 2: that years later we would end up living in the 102 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 2: governor's residence across from where we met. 103 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: Did you have any idea when you started dating him 104 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 1: that he was going to be this politician? 105 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 2: I did, Actually we went at that time the Catholic 106 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 2: Church had Tobit, which was a retreat for couples who 107 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 2: were considering marriage or engaged couples. We were not engaged 108 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 2: when we went on this retreat, but we were trying 109 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 2: to figure out, you know, is this something we need 110 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 2: to pursue more deeply. And one of the things Mike 111 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 2: shared on that retreat was I want to represent my 112 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 2: hometown in Congress someday. And we thought that would be 113 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 2: in his fifties or sixties, and it turned out to 114 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 2: be much sooner. He went and asked the county chairman 115 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 2: what should I be doing if I want to run 116 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 2: for Congress in my fifties, and he said, you should 117 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 2: run for Congress. And we met this wonderful, wonderful congressman 118 00:06:55,120 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 2: named Newt Gingrich at your schools for candidates, and it 119 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 2: was very exciting. We didn't win then, actually that was 120 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 2: eighty eight ninety. We didn't win, so it was ten 121 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 2: years later that we ran again. 122 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: So in between, what were you doing? 123 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 2: So in between Mike started a radio show. He had 124 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 2: worked for a think tank, and he also was an attorney. 125 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 2: And I had started a watercolor business. I did watercolors 126 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 2: of people's homes. And meanwhile we had started our family, 127 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: which took us a long time. We had a lot 128 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 2: of trouble starting our family. We had built our dream 129 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 2: home and we were pretty set. I mean, the kids 130 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 2: were all in school, our youngest was kindergarten, and we thought, great, 131 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: now we just live our life. We lived the American dream. 132 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 2: And Mike was on the radio then and people knew 133 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 2: exactly where he stood on the issues. We still knew 134 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 2: all of the donors in our district, and people started 135 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 2: coming to him saying, this is going to be an 136 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 2: open seat. Do you think you want to run again? 137 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: That must have been quite a conversation at home. I mean, 138 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: you already knew how hard it was, and you knew 139 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: how much it would change your whole life. 140 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. We did. We understood all the sacrifices, 141 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 2: and I think it did make it difficult. We had 142 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 2: just built our dream home, our kids. We wanted to 143 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 2: keep our family together if we ran, and so we 144 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 2: were faced with raising our kids in Washington and it 145 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 2: was a very difficult decision. And I tell a little 146 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 2: story in the book that is about how we made 147 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,719 Speaker 2: the decision. We had gone back and forth lots of counselors, 148 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 2: We prayed about it, We'd read the Bible. We just 149 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 2: really knew we had to make a decision. And I 150 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 2: had saved my watercolor income and surprised Mike with a 151 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 2: trip to a dude ranch in Colorado for his fortieth birthday. 152 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 2: And so we were at that dude ranch and he 153 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 2: and I took a horseback ride up to the top 154 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 2: of a bluff in a Teddy Roosevelt National Forest and 155 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 2: we got off of our horses and we just sat 156 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 2: down on the side of this bluff and tried to 157 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 2: make the decision. I mean, Mike said, we're running out 158 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,319 Speaker 2: of time, like we really have to decide are we 159 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 2: going to do this or not. And the first two 160 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 2: times we ran due, you probably may have noticed, we 161 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 2: were pretty full of ourselves. We were very arrogant. We 162 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 2: just thought we would be God's gift to Washington, and 163 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 2: I think that's why we did not win. And so 164 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 2: this time we were sitting on the side of the 165 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 2: bluff and these two redtail hawks were just rising on 166 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 2: the wind. And Mike is kind of a romantic and 167 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 2: he said, you see those hawks over there. Those hawks 168 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 2: are like us. And I said, okay, if those hawks 169 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 2: are like us, then I think we should do it. 170 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 2: I think we should run. But this time, let's do 171 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 2: it like the hawks. Let's step off this cliff and 172 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 2: make ourselves available to God. And if he wants to 173 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:08,599 Speaker 2: lift us up and have us serve with no flapping, 174 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 2: then we need to make ourselves available. And that kind 175 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 2: of became our mantra. Then every staff member hears that 176 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 2: story because we don't want to be forcing our will 177 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 2: instead of following God's will. 178 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: That's pretty amazing. Yeah, so you do run, and this 179 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 1: time you do win, right, and now you end up 180 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: in Washington. 181 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 2: That's right? 182 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: And is that when you started teaching art? 183 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 2: Yes, I started teaching art. What happened was you all 184 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 2: would have those orientation week in November for all the 185 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 2: new members, remember those days, newt And we came out 186 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 2: to that and I told Mike, I said, I need 187 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 2: to look for a Christian school where the kids can 188 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 2: go to school, because I didn't want them to be 189 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 2: in a public school at that time, because I knew 190 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 2: we were going to be moving. We were just going 191 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 2: to rent it first and see if we got reelected. 192 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 2: And I already hit uprooted them from their friends. So 193 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 2: I said, if I can find a private school where 194 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 2: I know they won't have to move when we move homes. 195 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 2: That would be better. And so actually it was Lana 196 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 2: beth owne Ed, Bethune's wife took me around. She was 197 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 2: a realtor, and I said, you know, can we go 198 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 2: look at this school. It is Emmanuel Christian School that 199 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 2: we talked about at the beginning of the program. And 200 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 2: I walked in and they said, we don't have any openings. 201 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:33,719 Speaker 2: Every classroom is full. And I said, well, maybe I'll 202 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 2: just homeschool this year. Then just to finish the year, 203 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 2: I said, I'm their art teacher right now at their 204 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 2: school in Indiana. And they said, wait a minute, we 205 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,199 Speaker 2: need an art teacher. And right then they said, your 206 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 2: kids will be the extra kid in every room, but 207 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 2: let's interview you for the art position. And right then 208 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 2: I thought, oh my gosh, God is providing this place 209 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 2: where I can teach and they can go to school. 210 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 2: It was just a three day a week job, and 211 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 2: so it was perfect for me. And I knew then 212 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 2: that I would have my own network. It wouldn't be 213 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 2: all congressional spouses, but I would have my own little world, 214 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 2: and it really really worked out well. 215 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: I think that's really important, just for psychological health, that 216 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: you have to be a person too. Otherwise it just 217 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: doesn't quite work. You can't be absorbed into your partner's 218 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 1: life totally. I went through a little bit of that 219 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: when Callisto was the ambassador of the Vatican. The State 220 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: Department term is trailing spouse, and I took a week 221 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: long course on how to trail. And I mean I 222 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: had plenty of stuff in my own life, so it 223 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: wasn't exactly like I was being overshadowed. But it was 224 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: fun and it was interesting, and it was a real 225 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: change in dynamic, you know, to have her suddenly be 226 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: the one who has a schedule and who is in staff, 227 00:12:51,760 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: and who has security and all that stuff. I can sympathize. Yeah, Hi, 228 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: this is NEWT. In my new book, March the Majority, 229 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: The Real Story of the Republican Revolution, I offer strategies 230 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: and insights for everyday citizens and for season politicians. It's 231 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: both a guide for political success and for winning back 232 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: the Majority. In twenty twenty four, March to the Majority 233 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: outlines the sixteen year campaign to write the Contract with America, 234 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: explains how we elected the first Republican House majority in 235 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: forty years in how we worked with President Bill Clinton 236 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: to pass major reforms, including four consecutive balanced budgets. March 237 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: to the Majority tells the behind the scenes story of 238 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,719 Speaker 1: how we got it done. Here's a special offer for 239 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 1: my podcast listeners. You can order March the Majority right 240 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 1: now at gingishfree sixty dot com slash book and it'll 241 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: be shipped directly to you. Don't miss out on a 242 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: special offer. Go to ginglishtree sixty dot com slash book 243 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: in order to copy now. Order it today at gngishree 244 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: sixty dot com slash book. I appreciate what you were 245 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: going through more now than I ever would have if 246 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: I had not been a trailing spouse, which is just 247 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: kind of wild. So one of the things I think 248 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: that people will find very very interesting is the whole 249 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: struggle with infertility that you went through. It you have 250 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: the courage to talk about in the book in a 251 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: way that I think is very very human. Could you 252 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: sort of share a little of that, because I do 253 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: think for a lot of people that's a significant challenge 254 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: and something they find it hard to talk about well. 255 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 2: And I think too, that's one of the things about 256 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 2: the book what I try to show in the book 257 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 2: is that if God is calling you to a position 258 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 2: of leadership, whether that's being a parent or a job, 259 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 2: or or where you're going to move or where you're 260 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 2: going to serve, he will give you that grace. But 261 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 2: sometimes it doesn't happen right on our schedule. And that 262 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 2: was the way it was for us for starting our family, 263 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 2: because we married when I was twenty eight, and so 264 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 2: we kind of thought, well, we probably need to get 265 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 2: this started. And I didn't have my first child till 266 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 2: I was thirty four, so it took us a while, 267 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 2: and for us, we went through a lot of challenges 268 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 2: we had to after so many years, and the doctor 269 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 2: kept saying, I don't know what's wrong. I can't figure 270 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 2: out why you aren't having children, but let's try this 271 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 2: one last thing, which actually ended up working and just 272 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 2: shut my whole system down and then fired it all 273 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 2: back up. This is a lot of detail, but I 274 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 2: had so many eggs that month that they almost didn't 275 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 2: let me go ahead and ovula because they thought I 276 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 2: would have seven children. 277 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: That would have been a very different Mike Pence had 278 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: walked in the room with seven goods. 279 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 2: But I said to them, I'm the infertile one. You 280 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 2: could go ahead, this isn't probably gonna work anyway, But 281 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: it did. And that's our son, Michael. But for us, 282 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 2: you know, now I look back Nute and I say, oh, 283 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 2: God's perfect timing. Our kids were a great age for 284 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 2: us to be in Congress. They experienced all of that. 285 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 2: If it had happened on our terms, it wouldn't have 286 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 2: worked out that way. And so now I see, and 287 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 2: the spouses they met, and the experiences they have, I 288 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 2: see that his timing was perfect. But at the time 289 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 2: it's very difficult. I remember I tell this story in 290 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 2: the book that I had one little niece and at 291 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 2: Easter brunch were all sitting around the table and she 292 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 2: just looked up at me and said, Auntie Karen, why 293 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 2: don't you have any babies? And I said, you know, 294 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 2: I don't know. God hasn't brought them to me yet. 295 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 2: But for us, I understand people being private because we 296 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 2: chose to be very private about our struggle, because we 297 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 2: didn't want people to feel sorry for us, like, oh, 298 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 2: this month and you still aren't pregnant, so we kept 299 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 2: it very private. I remember Mike's dad pulling us aside 300 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:20,880 Speaker 2: and saying he said, remember they don't come out as teenagers. Okay, 301 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 2: you guys need to get started. And so then we 302 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 2: went ahead and told him, we said, we've been trying 303 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 2: for years, and we're glad we got to do that 304 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 2: because he passed away before we had any children. So 305 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 2: it was nice that he knew at least that we 306 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 2: were trying. 307 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: I know, because I've been with you and with now adults, 308 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: the depth of pride and affection that you have, which 309 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: I think may have been part of that though when 310 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: they did finally come, you really treasured having children. 311 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you what I'd like to say, nude, 312 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 2: is I am a better mother because of that struggle 313 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 2: than I would have been. Not a better mother than 314 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 2: my friends, but a better mother than I would have been. 315 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 2: Because on the days when they absolutely drove me crazy, 316 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 2: or where I thought this kid is going to be 317 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 2: living with us till they're fifty, I stopped and I 318 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 2: would say, hey, wait a minute, you almost didn't have this, 319 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 2: so take a breath and go back in the room 320 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 2: and deal with whatever the issue was. 321 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: Does the joy of having finally gotten pregnant and having 322 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: the children, does that also affect you as you think 323 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: about right to life, and you think about the challenge 324 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: of abortion in our culture, I think. 325 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,959 Speaker 2: It does nude because Mike and I went through the 326 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 2: decision to put our names on an adoption list, and 327 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 2: I really struggled with that. I didn't want to go 328 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 2: through the teenage child saying you're not really my mom, 329 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 2: who's my real mom. I just didn't think I could 330 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 2: handle that, and so it took me a long time 331 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 2: to get to the point where I could would put 332 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 2: my name on an adoption list. And it was a 333 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 2: professor in my master's courses who had said to me, 334 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 2: you know what, you need to tell that child when 335 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 2: they're young, that they're adopted and that you will go 336 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,360 Speaker 2: on that journey with them. Whenever they want to do 337 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 2: that search, you will do it with them, and don't 338 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 2: compete with that other mother, you know, the birth mother, 339 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 2: but just join in and be part of that journey. 340 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 2: And it was like, all of a sudden, I was fine. 341 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 2: And so we actually got a call from an adoption 342 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 2: agency that said they had a little boy and he 343 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 2: was going to be born in July. Well, at that 344 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 2: point I was pregnant. Michael was going to be born 345 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 2: in November. They were seriously considering us though, because they 346 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 2: wanted their child to be the oldest. They knew with 347 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 2: me being pregnant, that there would be a sibling. And 348 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 2: Mike and I both struggle separately, and one night we 349 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 2: were taking a walk and we didn't know how to 350 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 2: tell the other one. I think we should take our 351 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 2: name off that list. That's not meant to be our baby. 352 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 2: We need to trust that God will carry this baby 353 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 2: to term. And we took our name off the list, 354 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 2: and our son never forgave us because he said, what 355 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 2: I could have had a brother. 356 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I got a sense to just listening 357 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: to the stories that you and Mike talk a lot. 358 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: I mean, you really communicate. 359 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 2: We we like to walk. We either walk in the 360 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 2: morning or we walk in the evening, and that's kind 361 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,120 Speaker 2: of when we debrief or talk through what we're. 362 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 3: Getting ready to do for the day. 363 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: I have to tell you. One of the things in 364 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: your book that I did not know I probably should have. 365 00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: Well I didn't know, is how much you're into beekeeping. Yes, 366 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: how did you get into beekeeping? 367 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 2: Well, it's a great story new because you know, you 368 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,640 Speaker 2: are very familiar with the National Governor's Association and every 369 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 2: year they have a meeting in February, like a four 370 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 2: day meeting, and the spouses have their own meetings as well, 371 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 2: because remember, if you're going to be the first lady 372 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,360 Speaker 2: or first gentleman of a state, you're probably only going 373 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 2: to be there for four years. You might be there 374 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 2: for eight years, but some states you only are there 375 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 2: for four years, and so you can't reinvent the wheel. 376 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 2: So it was important for us to support each other, 377 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 2: and so we had a presentation. Ginger Beebee did a presentation. 378 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 2: She was the first Lady of Arkansas, and she did 379 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 2: a presentation on her beehive and I was fascinated with this, 380 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 2: and I went back to Indiana and we started a 381 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 2: bee high by the Governor's residence. And then when I 382 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 2: became second Lady, one of the first things I asked 383 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 2: was is there a bee hiveh here? And they said no, 384 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 2: and I said, really, because there's one at the White House. 385 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 2: So we started to behive at the Vice President's residence 386 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 2: as well, and then we ended up visiting beehives and 387 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 2: beekeepers all over the world. It would be a little 388 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 2: tag on a trip that we would take, and my 389 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 2: staff and I learned so much about bees. So when 390 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 2: I wrote the book, I thought, you know, wouldn't it 391 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 2: be fun to put a little bee fact at the 392 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 2: beginning of every chapter that goes along with that chapter's theme. 393 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 2: And so that's what we did. We kind of wove 394 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 2: the bees throughout. 395 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: That's really wild. And you actually talk about you made 396 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: honey out of it, or you took the bees honey 397 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 1: and bottled it. 398 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, we harvested the honey. And the reason I think 399 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,199 Speaker 2: it was such a great idea that Ginger started this 400 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,640 Speaker 2: was because honey doesn't have to be pasteurized, it doesn't spoil, 401 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 2: so you're not running any health risks by giving honey 402 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,640 Speaker 2: out as a gift. So we had the little honeybears, 403 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 2: and then I did a watercolor of the governor's residence 404 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 2: and of the Vice President's residence, and we just shrunk 405 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 2: that down and we put it on the front of 406 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 2: the little honeybear and gave those as gifts. So when 407 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:21,919 Speaker 2: people would visit, we'd say, why don't you take some 408 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 2: honey with you? 409 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm curious. As you went around the world and 410 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: you saw those things, did any of them leap out 411 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 1: at you as particularly unusual? 412 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 2: Yes, Actually, it was in I think it was in Montenegro. 413 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 2: They gave me and I still have it to this day. 414 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 2: That day we tasted all sorts of products that they 415 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 2: had developed from their honey. We did like we had tea, 416 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 2: they had honey wine, they had soaps and cookies, and 417 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 2: so we had a whole little tasting session after we 418 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 2: visited their beehives. But they gave me this hollowed outlaw 419 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 2: that is about four feet tall and it's completely hollow 420 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 2: because bees used to try to find a hollow tree 421 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 2: and that's where you would find the bee's nest or 422 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 2: their hive. And so they gave me one and it 423 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 2: stood on a little like limestone stand that says for 424 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 2: Missus Penn's second Lady of the United States. And I 425 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 2: brought that helm on Air Force two with me much 426 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 2: of my staff's degree and they were like, no, no, 427 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 2: it's too big, we can't take it. And I said, 428 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 2: I'm taking this, and it sat in my office at 429 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,479 Speaker 2: the White House for the rest of our time. 430 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: That's wild. The other thing I didn't realize you write 431 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 1: about the fact that for PTSD that bees actually have 432 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 1: a calming influence and working with bees actually helps people 433 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: relax and is actually useful in PTSD programs. 434 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, we visited a couple different programs in the United States. 435 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:00,160 Speaker 2: I remember one was in Michigan. And when I our 436 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 2: soldiers come back and they have PTSD, part of their 437 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:10,679 Speaker 2: struggle in becoming reunited or reintegrated into the community is 438 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 2: they don't feel a part of a team or group anymore. 439 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 2: They all of a sudden are all by themselves. And 440 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 2: so one of the things that helps is learning how 441 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 2: to be a beekeeper. You know, they take the top 442 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 2: off of the high and the calming effect of the 443 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 2: bees buzzing around. It's almost like listening to symphony music. 444 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 2: It's very calming, and they suddenly feel like I'm a 445 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 2: part of a team again, and these bees need me, 446 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 2: and I'm going to protect them and I'm going to 447 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 2: nurture them, and the process is very, very healing for them. 448 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: When you became the first Lady of Indiana, you actually 449 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: met with all of the previous first ladies. Did you 450 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: find that that helped you? 451 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 2: Well, one hundred percent, because these women were more than 452 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 2: willing to share what they knew, and one was a Republican, 453 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 2: three were Democrats, one had just taken over for a 454 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 2: year when our governor died. But Judy O'Bannon and Susan By, 455 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 2: they were the two Democrats. They were especially helpful to me. 456 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 2: And Judy O'Bannon we are still friends and when we 457 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 2: run into each other, we just love to see each other. 458 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 2: And Susan Bye was the other one that sat down 459 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 2: with me. When I called her, she said, nope, we're 460 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 2: going to have lunch. We're going to go through everything. 461 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 2: Bring your notepad. I'm going to share everything I know. 462 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 2: And she was fabulous and she since has passed away, 463 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 2: but she was very, very helpful. And then Sherry Daniels 464 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 2: was the sitting first lady when I was coming in, 465 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 2: and she had me over to the governor's residence and 466 00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 2: showed me around and told me the kind of things 467 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 2: she did and you know, some here a few tips, 468 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 2: and that was very very helpful for me. 469 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned the governor's residence. You talk about it 470 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: a little bit. It's actually like on six acres of lamb. 471 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 1: But at the same time, ig other it's relatively small 472 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 1: compared to some of the governor's residence as we've built 473 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: in the modern era. Did you enjoy living there? 474 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 2: Let me just say it was an honor. I mean, 475 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 2: whenever you're living there or living in the vice president's residence, 476 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:33,439 Speaker 2: it's an unbelievable privilege. But it's not your own home. 477 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 2: I mean, it's like living in the apartment above the shop. 478 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 2: You know there are people there all the time. You 479 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 2: lose a lot of your privacy. The governor's residence in 480 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 2: Indiana is actually on probably the busiest street in the 481 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 2: city of Indianapolis, and so they're constant traffic. But you 482 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 2: do have the six acres, so it's a little bit 483 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 2: of a but the house is pretty close to the road, 484 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 2: so it's a little bit difficult for me. I'm kind 485 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 2: of a private person. I like to have my own 486 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 2: house and my own things, and so that part of 487 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 2: it was a little bit hard for me. 488 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: What was it like to move from that official residence 489 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: to the official residence in Washington. 490 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 2: Well, it was pretty extensive and difficult to manage. And 491 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 2: I just say that, because you know, you have the 492 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 2: election in November, you move in on January twentieth. Now, 493 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 2: our furniture was pretty much thirty years old. A lot 494 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 2: of it looked like it, and we had gotten rid 495 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 2: of a lot of stuff when we went to the 496 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 2: Governor's residence. So I gave a lot of my furniture 497 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,479 Speaker 2: to staff. I gave some to homeless shelter staff's kids. 498 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 2: I'd say, well, look, we've got this patio table, we've 499 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 2: got this grill. You know, here's our living room set, 500 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 2: our bedroom set. We pretty much gave most of our 501 00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 2: furniture away. And it was necessar then to furnish the 502 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 2: upstairs at the Vice President's residence, and so we had 503 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 2: to meet with a decorator. And I just had like 504 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 2: one day, and I said, I think because I just 505 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 2: got one tour, like about an hour long tour of 506 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 2: the house, took pictures. That's really all. I had to 507 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 2: figure out how to furnish the upstairs before we moved in. 508 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 2: And so private money is raised to buy that furniture, 509 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 2: because think about it, if you're moving into someone's house, 510 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 2: they're moving out, you don't want them to leave their 511 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 2: furniture there. So we didn't want to live on the 512 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 2: Biden's furniture, and Kamalin Doug didn't want to live on 513 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 2: our furniture, and so you have to refurnish. And so 514 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 2: I just met with a decorator and I said, Okay, 515 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 2: what can we get in six weeks. What do you 516 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 2: have this available? Show me the bedroom stuff, show me 517 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 2: the living room stuff. And we picked out stuff very 518 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:58,959 Speaker 2: very quickly, and we had amazing movers and amazing people 519 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 2: at the residence, and of course this decorator that on 520 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 2: January twentieth, they were not allowed into the house until 521 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 2: six am. By the time we got there that afternoon, 522 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 2: after the inauguration and the lunch and everything, everything was 523 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 2: put away. 524 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: That's pretty amazing. 525 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 2: It was amazing. Pictures were home. Everything was put away. 526 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 2: That's the way to move newt How. 527 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: Did I say, that's pretty astonishing? 528 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 2: It really was. 529 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: I thought it was very interesting. Given your background as 530 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: an art teacher. Your first initiative as second Lady was 531 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: art therapy. Can you talk a little bit. Most of 532 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: our listeners, I suspect aren't fully familiar with art therapy, 533 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: and I'm kind of fascinated with what you were doing. 534 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 2: Well, that's the reason that I picked it as my 535 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 2: first initiative. I sat down with Milania and I said, 536 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 2: you know, I just want to know what you're thinking about, 537 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 2: because as first Lady of Indiana, I mean, we counted 538 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 2: all the things that my hands touched and there were 539 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 2: forty too, so we had forty two. Some were minor initiatives, 540 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 2: some were pretty major. But I didn't want to be 541 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 2: that kind of second lady. I felt like, I'm the 542 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 2: second lady. I need to see what Milania's thoughts are. 543 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 2: And she told me I'm picking one thing, so I thought, okay, 544 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 2: then to start out, I'm just picking one thing. And 545 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 2: my one thing was art therapy because I had learned 546 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 2: about art therapy as a congressional spouse. There is a 547 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 2: program in Washington called Tracy's Kids, and I learned about 548 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 2: it on a codel with a Disney lobbyist who heard 549 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 2: me talking to an artist, a guess at Disney, and 550 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 2: I was asking questions since I was an art teacher, 551 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 2: and he said, oh, I didn't know you were an 552 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 2: art teacher, missus Pence. I've got something you might be 553 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 2: interested in. And that's when I learned about art therapy. 554 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,719 Speaker 2: Art therapy is not something I can do. I'm not 555 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,239 Speaker 2: trained as an art therapist, and art therapist has a 556 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 2: master's or doctorate level degree. And for art therapy to work, 557 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 2: you have the client or a patient, you have the art, 558 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 2: and you have the art therapist because when these children 559 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 2: who have cancer, that's what Tracy's kids is. When these 560 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 2: children are in trauma, the art therapists can bring out 561 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 2: some of the trauma they're dealing with and help them 562 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 2: shut the door on that as well. So it's not 563 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 2: something I would want to start with a child going 564 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 2: through trauma because I wouldn't know how to process what 565 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 2: they're dealing with. The side of the brain injured in 566 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 2: trauma is the verbal side. And so a lot of 567 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 2: times are vets and anyone who's going through trauma, they 568 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,959 Speaker 2: can't necessarily talk about it at first. And so I 569 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 2: started learning when I was first Lady of Indiana about 570 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 2: how successful art therapy is with our vets. And I 571 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 2: observed a program in Indianapolis called Combat Paper, And our 572 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 2: vets are invited to bring their uniform because remember new 573 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 2: they've worn this uniform their whole career and it's who 574 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 2: they are, and now all of a sudden, they're not 575 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 2: wearing the uniform, and so they bring their uniform. They 576 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 2: cut it into little tiny pieces, and they put it 577 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 2: in a pulp machine that turns it into paper, and 578 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 2: you roll out this thick paper and then that veteran 579 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 2: can put something new on that paper. They're transforming that 580 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 2: uniform into something new. So it's a process. And when 581 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 2: I started learning about that, I started thinking, well, this 582 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 2: is fascinating. When I became second Lady, I thought people 583 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 2: need to know about this. My initiative started and it 584 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 2: was three prong First, we just want people to know 585 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 2: about this program because if they're going through trauma, this 586 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 2: might be the therapy that helps them. Second, we wanted 587 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 2: universities to provide more courses on art therapy. And third, 588 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 2: we wanted to encourage young people to go into this profession. 589 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 2: And so that was kind of our focus, making people 590 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 2: aware of what art therapy is because most people don't 591 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 2: know what it is. That's how it started. 592 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 1: I just want to say that you and Mike have 593 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: been remarkable citizens at every step of the way. It's 594 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:25,359 Speaker 1: a great joy to close to me to know you. 595 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: But I know you're in the middle of a race 596 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: right now, and having done that myself, there are a 597 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,439 Speaker 1: few things more exhausting than running for president. But you've 598 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 1: done something really good for people of all backgrounds, whatever 599 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: their political view. You've written a book that's real, it's 600 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: about life, and that has real lessons and real insights. 601 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 1: I think that virtually everyone could profit by reading. I 602 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 1: just want to tell you how much I admire what 603 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: you're doing, what Mike's doing, and how much I think 604 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 1: you have done a remarkable job of eating a fully 605 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,399 Speaker 1: parallel life of remarkable experiences. And I think a lot 606 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: of people will find their own lives are changed and 607 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: enriched by reading When It's your Turn to serve, Experiencing 608 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: God's Grace and his calling for your life. And I 609 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:17,799 Speaker 1: just want to thank you for joining me. It takes 610 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: some time, and I appreciate so much your service and 611 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: Mike's service to the country, and you've shared a very 612 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 1: deeply personal journey, and I want you to know how 613 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: much Klist and I share a sense of cherishing your 614 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: friendship and cherishing being able to be on that journey 615 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: with you. 616 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:45,799 Speaker 2: Thank you, Dad to spend a privilege. 617 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Karen Pence. You can get 618 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,359 Speaker 1: a link to buy her new book, When It's your 619 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: Turn to Serve, Experiencing God's Grace and His Calling for 620 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,760 Speaker 1: your life on our show page at Newtsworld dot com. 621 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 1: Newsworld is produced by Gingrish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our 622 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: executive producer is Guerney Sloan, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 623 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,760 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 624 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingrich three sixty. If 625 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple 626 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: Podcasts and both rate us with five stars and give 627 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about. 628 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of Newtsworld consent them for my three 629 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 1: free weekly columns at gingrichthree sixty dot com slash newsletter. 630 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 1: I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.