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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome back to the away and I'm John Green

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Speaker 1: and I'm Danielle Alarcon. How you doing, John, I'm.

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Speaker 2: Doing all right. I was really let down over the

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Speaker 2: weekend by my beloved Liverpool Football Club, and I think

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Speaker 2: you were let down by my beloved Liverpool Football Club

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 1: I was. I fully expected something to happen, something good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So Daniel's a big Arsenal fan. Arsenal are currently

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Speaker 2: winning the Premier League, but in second place is Manchester

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Speaker 2: City and Daniel and I were both hoping that Liverpool

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Speaker 2: would be able to beat Manchester City. Game had a

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Speaker 2: terrible first half. The first half was like watching third

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Speaker 2: tier English soccer, which I do every weekend, so I

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Speaker 2: can say this with authority. And then in the second

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Speaker 2: half it really came to life. Dominic Sobisly had a

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Speaker 2: brilliant free kick for Liverpool scored a wonder of a goal,

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Speaker 2: the kind of goal that makes you think of the

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Speaker 2: William Faulkner line that the purpose of art is to

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Speaker 2: create out of the materials of the human spirit something

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Speaker 2: which did not exist before, and that Soba Sly goal

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Speaker 2: really created out of the materials of the human spirit,

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Speaker 2: something that had not existed before. It was gorgeous, but

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Speaker 2: then Manchester City tied the game, then they took the lead,

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Speaker 2: and then in the last second of the game, that

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Speaker 2: very same Dominic Sivaslye received a red card for stopping

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Speaker 2: a goal scoring opportunity as the ball was being kicked

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Speaker 2: eighty yards with the goalkeeper up trying to score. Alison,

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Speaker 2: our Liverpool goalkeeper was trying to score a goal and

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Speaker 2: so he was not blocking his goal and there was

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Speaker 2: a red card, and it was just a overall ridiculous game.

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Speaker 2: We lost to one arsenal and Manchester City are still

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Speaker 2: locked in a tight title race and Liverpool are struggling.

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Speaker 1: So there's a couple of things that I noticed about

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Speaker 1: the game. Well, one, I want to say I didn't

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Speaker 1: watch the game because I generally despised watching man City

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Speaker 1: because I've just seen them win too much in the

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Speaker 1: last you know, eight years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like watching robots play football. It's not that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I they they have obviously, I'm a

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Speaker 1: Pep is a wonderful manager, and obviously they have incredible players.

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Speaker 1: But I've just been burned too many times. You know

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Speaker 1: where I like I hear there, you know, they're down

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Speaker 1: a goal, I'll turn on to watch the last ten

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Speaker 1: minutes and then I'll watch them score three, which is

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Speaker 1: basically what happened in the Liverpool game. I understand. So

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Speaker 1: that's one thing. The other thing that I've been really

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Speaker 1: interested in, though, is the discourse around this title race,

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Speaker 1: as if that was like as if they by winning

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Speaker 1: that game they've made six points as opposed to just

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Speaker 1: the normal three, like as if they won this game

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Speaker 1: and now Arsenal is like out of the title race

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Speaker 1: because you know City is back, and you know that

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Speaker 1: may be true. I have a very philosophical approach to to,

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Speaker 1: you know, supporting my club in the sense that I

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Speaker 1: don't let it bother me anymore if we win or lose.

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Speaker 1: And I also can't really engage with the hope yet

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Speaker 1: because it's it's it hurts too much. But I have

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Speaker 1: so much experience as a proof fan of disappointment, so

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Speaker 1: it just doesn't touch me. You know, it doesn't hurt me.

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Speaker 1: So I think we're still in a good position. Obviously

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Speaker 1: you'd rather be nine points ahead, but you know, it

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Speaker 1: is what it is.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to push back a little bit on that, Daniel.

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Speaker 2: I think if Arsenal loses the title this year, you will,

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Speaker 2: in fact be devastated. And I think you're trying to

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Speaker 2: protect yourself emotionally by saying that you have a philosophical approach.

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Speaker 2: And I admire that, but I think that is a

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Speaker 2: defense mechanism rather than an actual feeling.

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Speaker 1: Okay, have I looked for tickets to London, like Bolada

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Speaker 1: London for like you know, this spring, and like you know,

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Speaker 1: plas a second mortgage on my house in order to

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Speaker 1: do it? Yes, Dom, that's true. However, yes, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think I said this in one of the earlier shows.

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Speaker 1: You know, the worst the news gets, the more like

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Speaker 1: football content I consume. And I will say that like

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Speaker 1: sort of you know, watching this team has been uh

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Speaker 1: has been a joy at times. It's been drudgery at

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Speaker 1: times because we're not necessarily easy on the eye sometimes.

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Speaker 1: But but yeah, I'll be done. I won't. I don't.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to push back on your pushback. I don't

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Speaker 1: think I'll be devastated. I think i'll I will be

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Speaker 1: I'll be disappointed. I do think we have an incredible

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Speaker 1: team that should win something. And by something, I don't

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Speaker 1: mean to care about Cup. I mean like, although good

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Speaker 1: luck in the carabout cup good luck? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: I also think that it's setting up. There was this

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Speaker 1: famous season where Madrid and Barcelona face each other four

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Speaker 1: times in the course of two weeks or so, once

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Speaker 1: in the league, twice in the Champions League and and

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Speaker 1: once in the Copa Dera, so it was maybe five times.

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Speaker 1: It was ridiculous, and it was at the height of

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Speaker 1: the Pep versus h Josie Mourinho psycho drama. The year

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Speaker 1: that Pep called Mourinho et Putoamo the fucking Boss, which

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Speaker 1: I just loved that. And it would be amazing and

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Speaker 1: also horrible to have to face Pep and City four

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Speaker 1: times in April, which could easily happen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, could very much be the case. It's going to

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Speaker 2: be exciting. So today we're going to do a deep

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Speaker 2: dive into the Cote Devoir national team. I'm very excited

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Speaker 2: to talk with you about the men's national team for

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Speaker 2: Cote de far Daniel. But first I think you wanted

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Speaker 2: to introduce me a little bit to James Rodriguez, the

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Speaker 2: great question mark Colombian footballer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how much do you know about hummus a little bit?

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Speaker 2: Because he played in England for a hot minute, and

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Speaker 2: now I think he's going to play for Minnesota United, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So this was on my mind because he

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Speaker 1: just announced that he was moving to MLS to Minnesota United,

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Speaker 1: which is a kind of at a left field move.

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Speaker 1: He'd previously played not even a full season, I don't

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Speaker 1: think at a Mexican club. He sort of burst into

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Speaker 1: the international consciousness of world football. I think in the

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Speaker 1: twenty fourteen World Cup when he was the Golden boot

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Speaker 1: winner and scored some absolute beauties and I loved him.

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Speaker 1: I loved that Colombian side because I was in Colombia

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Speaker 1: at the time. My wife is Colombian and we were

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Speaker 1: here in Boada. We saw a lot of those games

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Speaker 1: with family, with friends. We saw. You know, if you've

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Speaker 1: seen any clip, it's probably the goal he stored against

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Speaker 1: Uruguay where he controls it off his chest, turns, looks

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Speaker 1: and swings a volley from outside the box that like

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Speaker 1: kisses in off the bar against Uruguay and quarterfinals, like

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Speaker 1: wonderful goal. So he was at that time he just

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Speaker 1: seemed like this effortlessly talented player off the bat. On

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Speaker 1: the back of that performance in the World Cup, he

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Speaker 1: moved to Madrid, wore the number ten shirt at Madrid

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Speaker 1: and really seemed like the next Colombian global superstar, you know.

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Speaker 1: And you know, Falcao and James at the time were

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Speaker 1: you know, the kind of the names. And even now

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Speaker 1: in Boda, living in Bolota again, you see Jimis everywhere.

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Speaker 1: You see him on TV commercials, you see him on

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Speaker 1: billboards and murals, you know, kind of splitting time with Luchods,

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Speaker 1: you know. But he's you know, easily one of the

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Speaker 1: most recognizable celebrities in Columbia. However, I think that that

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Speaker 1: effortless talent turned out to have required maybe a little

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Speaker 1: bit more effort to be cultivated. So he didn't exactly

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Speaker 1: flop at Madrid, but he didn't really stand out. He

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Speaker 1: was eventually loan to Bayern Munich. He did okay there

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Speaker 1: and then he kind of began this itinerant journey around

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Speaker 1: world football. You mentioned that he was in the Premier

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Speaker 1: League for a minute, and it really was like a

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Speaker 1: very short minute. It was at Everton and then you know,

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Speaker 1: he just has that if you go back and think

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Speaker 1: about about the drama, you know, the wonderful midfielder that

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Speaker 1: the Clement side had in like ninety four ninety eight,

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Speaker 1: this kind of midfield my stro that doesn't necessarily do

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Speaker 1: anything except create chances for other people, but is basically

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Speaker 1: a passenger when it comes to defense. And that's not

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Speaker 1: where the game is at anymore. And so if you

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Speaker 1: used to be able to carry a player like that,

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Speaker 1: you can't. And I really want him to do well

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Speaker 1: because the one thing and the one sort of team

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Speaker 1: that he always seems to like show up for is

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Speaker 1: the Columbia national team. You know, he had been sort

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Speaker 1: of like shuttled off to the side before this most

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Speaker 1: recent campaign to qualify, and then the new manager sort

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Speaker 1: of brought him back into the fold and really sort

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Speaker 1: of like built the team around him. And to to

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Speaker 1: Thomas's credit, he performed. You know, he performed in the

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Speaker 1: in the Cobamaica when he took the team to the

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Speaker 1: finals against Argentina. And the one questions his talent. And

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Speaker 1: it's just what I've always wondered, is what happens when

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Speaker 1: you're so good at something that it seems to come

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Speaker 1: so easily, but you don't put in the work. And

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Speaker 1: why is it that when he puts on the national

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Speaker 1: team jersey, he's transformed into this player that he should

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Speaker 1: be all the time.

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Speaker 2: Well, don't you. I mean not to make this about

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Speaker 2: too much about our high school experience, but I remember

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Speaker 2: when we were in high school, like you were not

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Speaker 2: just the most talented writer I'd ever seen, but like

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Speaker 2: the most talented writer I've still ever seen. You know

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Speaker 2: what I mean? I know that that was probably all yes,

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Speaker 2: like very yes in terms of like raw pure talent.

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Speaker 2: You had a thing that nobody else I've ever encountered had.

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Speaker 2: But that is worth you know that in sixty five

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Speaker 2: cents will buy you a coke at costco Right, Like,

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Speaker 2: when you're good at something, and we were both reasonably

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Speaker 2: good at writing in high school. You were really good.

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Speaker 2: I was reasonably good. When you're good at something, the

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Speaker 2: idea is that because you're good at it, you want

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Speaker 2: to do it more, and you want to you want

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Speaker 2: to work hard, right, Like, you want to work hard

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Speaker 2: because you're good at it and because people are telling

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Speaker 2: you you're good at it, and because you're a teenager.

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Speaker 2: And when people tell you you're good at something, it

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Speaker 2: feels so good because you're bad at almost everything. And

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Speaker 2: I imagine it's not that dissimilar for a really talented

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Speaker 2: football player. It's the same age when you start to,

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Speaker 2: you know, differentiate yourself from your peers in a major way.

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Speaker 2: And we all know people who are really talented who

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Speaker 2: didn't for whatever reason, like want to continue to get

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Speaker 2: better at that thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but we're talking about and setting aside this our

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Speaker 1: own high school experience. I'm talking about somebody who you know,

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Speaker 1: played it round Madrid, wore the number ten jersey at Madrid,

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Speaker 1: you know, like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but don't you think that you sort of wore

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Speaker 2: the number ten jersey at Madrid, Daniel, Like in the

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Speaker 2: writing world, you write to the New Yorker, you got

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Speaker 2: to take you gotta. I'm not letting you this go.

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Speaker 2: I know you want me to.

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Speaker 1: No, really, yeah, really super uncomfortable. I did not sort

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Speaker 1: of join this podcast project to get this kind of praise.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate it. But okay, so let's go back to

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Speaker 1: Hamas and I think we can all think of players

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Speaker 1: and people. I'm gonna tell you, Sory, I knew a kid,

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Speaker 1: the best player on my club team when I was

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Speaker 1: a kid. His name was Andrew, and he he was

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Speaker 1: so good. And the moment that I remember from him

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Speaker 1: was that we were tied against this team it, you know,

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Speaker 1: might have been a Stavior Mountain Brook or one of

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Speaker 1: these other teams from the suburbs of Birmingham, Alabama. And

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Speaker 1: Andrew kept telling the goalie of the other team, He's like,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna score on you man at like corner kicks,

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Speaker 1: you know. He's like, I'm gonna score on you. Then

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna kiss you. And I said it, and I

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Speaker 1: was just like, what the hell this kind of otherworldly confidence? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's like what are you doing? You know,

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Speaker 1: like like it would like and you don't get like

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Speaker 1: that's not a normal thing. People don't have that. I

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Speaker 1: do think that you had. Like if you make it

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Speaker 1: as far as Hamas did or as far as any

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Speaker 1: these guys, you have to have this insane confidence that

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Speaker 1: is just, you know, borders on pathology, you know. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: Eventually Andrew did score and uh and and he ran

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Speaker 1: back to pull the ball out of that and the

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Speaker 1: keepers just kind of stunned and just kind of standing

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Speaker 1: there like hands on hips. And Andrew kissed him on

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Speaker 1: the cheek, got a yellow card. Wow, and didn't care

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Speaker 1: at all, you know, he just thought it was so funny. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I just was like, you know, the the that

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Speaker 1: that kind of confidence. He didn't work hard because it

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Speaker 1: was so easy for him, so much better than us,

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Speaker 1: he didn't need to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I I think sometimes though that like

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Speaker 2: we we underestimate talent in general. I think like we don't,

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Speaker 2: we don't talk enough about how much talent matters. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to now tell you the story of my middle

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Speaker 2: school my my most glorious moment as a middle school

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Speaker 2: soccer player. So there are two things you need to

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Speaker 2: be a good footballer, as far as I can tell.

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Speaker 2: One is an understanding of space and awareness of you know,

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Speaker 2: how to open up space, how to occupy space, how

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Speaker 2: to get into space, how to get the ball into space,

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Speaker 2: all that stuff. You have to have spatial intelligence, spatial awareness.

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Speaker 2: And then you also have to have like a basic

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Speaker 2: level of coordination. Balance that really matters in football, you know,

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Speaker 2: like foot eye coordination is incredibly important. So is strength,

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Speaker 2: the ability to you know, have the ball go where

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Speaker 2: you want it to go when you kick it. I

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Speaker 2: had neither of these things, of course, and I think

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Speaker 2: it's important to note that there is an element of

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Speaker 2: talent in this stuff, and sometimes you don't have it,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't have it. What I had was an incredible,

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Speaker 2: incredible work ethic when it came to soccer, and only

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Speaker 2: when it came to soccer. Like I was not a

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Speaker 2: good student, but I had I was really deeply dedicated

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Speaker 2: to getting good. And I'd been told my whole life

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Speaker 2: that it was all about hard work, that was all

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Speaker 2: about heart, how hard you work, how much you give

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Speaker 2: to the game. I'd gone to all the soccer clinics

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Speaker 2: when I was a kid where they told me, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, what makes what makes the difference between good

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Speaker 2: and great is all effort and confidence and hard work.

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Speaker 2: And so I believe that if I just worked hard

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Speaker 2: enough and just had enough confidence and just did all

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Speaker 2: this right, then I would eventually be a good soccer player.

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Speaker 2: This was, of course, not true, because I didn't have

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Speaker 2: either of the things that you need. Anyway, In eighth grade,

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Speaker 2: my coach comes up to me the day before a game.

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Speaker 2: He says, you're going to start tomorrow. It's the first

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Speaker 2: time I've ever started. I'm incredibly excited. This is the

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Speaker 2: pinnacle of my career, and it's for me, the beginning

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Speaker 2: of the beginning of the beginning, right, It's the beginning

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Speaker 2: of the moment where I turn a corner. I've become

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Speaker 2: a starter. I'm going down this path now to become

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Speaker 2: a truly great player through my effort and hard work.

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Speaker 2: And then at halftime of that game, I'm substituted out

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Speaker 2: and the coach says to the rest of the team,

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Speaker 2: you know why I started green? At least, he tries, No,

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Speaker 2: I was nothing but a motivational tool.

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Speaker 1: Daniel, Wow, that you were like the Hallmark card, sort

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Speaker 1: of like with a with a you know, jersey on.

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Speaker 2: It was like the movie Rudy.

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Speaker 1: Ah, Yes, you were rudy to try.

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Speaker 2: Hard's I was rudy.

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Speaker 1: I was rudy.

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Speaker 2: I thought that I was going to become somebody, and

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Speaker 2: I was rudy all along.

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Speaker 1: You know, isn't that like some kind of emotional coaching

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Speaker 1: malpractice that shouldn't be inflicted upon a child. I mean

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Speaker 1: you see that now.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think from the coaches perspective, he was trying

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Speaker 2: to win the game, and he wanted to make the

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Speaker 2: point to the other players that if they tried as

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Speaker 2: hard as I did, we would be good.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. I made me think of this,

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Speaker 1: and again we keep mixing the literary and the sporting.

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Speaker 1: But many years ago I met the Chilean writer Alberto

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Speaker 1: Fuget and he was giving a talk. Someone asked him

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Speaker 1: that kind of standard question who his idols were, and

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Speaker 1: he said, I want to differentiate between idols and heroes.

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Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing here, right, but he said, you know, my

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Speaker 1: idol is Garcia Marquez. My hero is is Bnyosa. And

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Speaker 1: the difference is you can aspire to be your heroes,

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Speaker 1: but you can't be your idols. And he said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Garcia Marcus is a genius, and Bugas Jossa just works

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Speaker 1: really hard. M And he was basically like the whole

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Speaker 1: point was like he's like, I'm not a genius. He's like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not a genius. I'm just gonna work really hard.

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Speaker 1: And he's you know, he's made a nice career for

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Speaker 1: himself working hard, and you can he's obviously very talented

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Speaker 1: in addition to working hard.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but you're not going to be like I could

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Speaker 2: work I think I do work hard as a writer,

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Speaker 2: and I could work maybe a little bit harder, but

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Speaker 2: it's not like I'm a little bit of work away

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Speaker 2: from being Tony Morrison, right, right, you're not. I mean,

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Speaker 2: that's just not happen for me. I remember once I

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Speaker 2: was early in our marriage, I was reading a book

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Speaker 2: by Michael Shaven and I said to Sarah, I just

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Speaker 2: don't think I can write like this. And she didn't

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Speaker 2: even pause. She said, of course you can't.

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Speaker 1: But isn't it It's it's sort of it's a it's

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Speaker 1: a relief to realize that, yeah, only can only write

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Speaker 1: like yourself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and I can't write like that, but

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Speaker 2: I can write like some I can write like me.

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Speaker 2: And you know, like you said, you get to have

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Speaker 2: your heroes and your idols, and part of the pleasure

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Speaker 2: of having idols is that you know you can't become

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Speaker 2: them right like you. Part of the part of the

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Speaker 2: pleasure of being able to look up the mountain and

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Speaker 2: see Tony Morrison up there is being able to read her.

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Speaker 2: Not necessarily, you don't need to be able to write

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Speaker 2: like her. You just need to be able to read

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Speaker 2: her well.

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Speaker 1: And appreciate her. Yeah. In that spirit, I want to

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Speaker 1: say that I hope I'm does really well because I

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Speaker 1: you know, living in Bota, I want Columbut to do

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Speaker 1: really well. And I do think the team depends on him,

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Speaker 1: on which WE'LLDZ perhaps even to a greater extent. But

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Speaker 1: if Hamas is hitting, then the coding team will do well.

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Speaker 1: And I really hope it goes well from at MLS

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Speaker 1: in Minnesota in MLS this season. Why don't we take

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Speaker 1: a quick break, John, and we'll come back and hear

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Speaker 1: about Coldivouc.

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Speaker 2: Perfect. All right, Daniel, we're back at the away end

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Speaker 2: and I am going to talk to you about the elephants,

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Speaker 2: the Cote Devoir national men's team. Now I know what

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Speaker 2: you're wondering. First off, are there elephants in Code of War?

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Speaker 2: There are, but only about three hundred of them, fewer

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Speaker 2: and fewer every year. So it's a real source of

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Speaker 2: concern for both football and biodiversity. So listen. You said

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Speaker 2: in a previous episode that according to the actuarial tables,

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Speaker 2: we have eight World Cups left in our lifetime, if

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Speaker 2: I'm not mistaken. Yes, yes, Well, beginning in nineteen thirty,

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Speaker 2: Cote Devoir failed to qualify for the first eight World Cups,

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Speaker 2: not because of footballing reasons, but because the nation of

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Speaker 2: Quote Devoir did not yet exist. It gained its independence

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Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty when my dad was ten, which is

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Speaker 2: a nice reminder that in many cases the nations that

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Speaker 2: are competing in the World Cup are new. They are

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Speaker 2: still establishing themselves in the world order. I remember once

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Speaker 2: I was talking to my friend Daniel Bainbridge and she said,

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Speaker 2: you know, your national anthem in the United States was

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Speaker 2: written by Francis Scott Key, like two hundred and fifty

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Speaker 2: years ago, and he's somebody that you read about in

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Speaker 2: your textbooks. Well, in my father's home nation, the national

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Speaker 2: anthem was written by my dad's friend. And nice because

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Speaker 2: lots of nations are new, especially post colonial nations, and

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Speaker 2: that's the case for Kotevoir. It's easy to forget how

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Speaker 2: many formally colonized nations there are, but yeah, this is

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Speaker 2: this is one of them. So Kote of War has

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Speaker 2: won the African Cup of Nations three times since nineteen sixty,

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Speaker 2: including one during their golden age with Solomon Kalou and

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Speaker 2: Yaya Torre and Gervino That was just after Dider Drogba's retirement. Daniel,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you'll know Didier Drogba from all of his

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Speaker 2: exploits for Chelsea.

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Speaker 1: M hm, Yes, all the times he scored an Arsenal.

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Speaker 1: I'm really intrigued that he's a Gervino in there, because

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Speaker 1: my memory of Davigno is not of a golden, golden

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Speaker 1: generation Blair when he was on Arsenal. But anyway, gone

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Speaker 1: he was fast.

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Speaker 2: He was he was very very fast.

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Speaker 1: His hairline was extraordinary, just absolutely extordinary. So he wore

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Speaker 1: sort of this kind of headband that kept his you know,

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Speaker 1: his bangs, I guess, plastered down on his forehead. And

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Speaker 1: one time I remember, you know, a stiff wind blue

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Speaker 1: or he headed the wrong you know, off his forehead

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Speaker 1: and that thing came off and then his bangs you

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Speaker 1: know started, you know, back behind his ears. Basically, it

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Speaker 1: was a comb forward of epic proportions. It was. It

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Speaker 1: was like it was like a Bill Murray thing from

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Speaker 1: from that Bowling movie. It was wild. Anyway, Sorry that

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Speaker 1: that's a parenthetical that no one cares about, but there

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Speaker 1: it is.

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Speaker 2: No, I don't think that no one cares about that.

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Speaker 2: I think that's the kind of hard hitting journalism that

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Speaker 2: people come to the away and for. And I think

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Speaker 2: it's super important that you shared that, and I appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Great.

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Speaker 2: Great, So we've got Gervigno with his comb forward, We've

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Speaker 2: got Yaya Tore, his brother Clolo Torre. We've got Salomon

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Speaker 2: Kohlou and then of course we have Didier Drongo, probably

407
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Speaker 2: the greatest footballer ever produced by Coote Devoir, arguably the

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Speaker 2: greatest Sub Saharan African footballer of all time. He of

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Speaker 2: course can't be the greatest African foot baller of all

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Speaker 2: time because that goes to Liverpool's owned Mohammed Sala. This

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Speaker 2: year Afcan went okay for Kotavoir. They lost three two

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Speaker 2: to Egypt, but didn't look too bad in losing. They

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Speaker 2: have a really strong crop of current players, Like if

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Speaker 2: you look at their lineup it's similar to the US

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Speaker 2: men's national team in terms of how many players play

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Speaker 2: in the top leagues of Europe, how many players are

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Speaker 2: playing in the Champions League. They've got Nottingham Forest, Willie Bowley,

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Speaker 2: They've got Romas Indica in the back, they've got Manchester

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Speaker 2: United suddenly inform Ama Diallo up front, and they look

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Speaker 2: pretty good. However, they have never progressed past the group

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Speaker 2: stage in the World Cup. Really qualifying for Africa. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: isn't that crazy.

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Speaker 1: Saying they never got they? Well they have they have

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Speaker 1: only they get out of the groups and then losing

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Speaker 1: the sick round of sixteen, or they just never get

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Speaker 1: out of the group. They never get out of the group.

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Speaker 1: They've never gotten that's shocking. Yeah wow.

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Speaker 2: I was also shocked to learn that so part of

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Speaker 2: this is because qualifying from Africa is notoriously difficult, and

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Speaker 2: they don't always qualify. However, in two thousand and six

431
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 2: and twenty ten they both times drew into the so

432
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 2: called Group of Death, the most statistically difficult group. In

433
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 2: twenty ten they drew against Portugal and then played Brazil yikes,

434
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 2: and lost to Brazil and as a result didn't qualify.

435
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,160
Speaker 1: Oh that's a bummer for the knockout.

436
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 2: Rounds this year. Their group is really interesting. It's a

437
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 2: group that you and I have both focused on because

438
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 2: it includes Germany, a traditional powerhouse in global football. I

439
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 2: would argue this is again a little bit of a

440
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:49,399
Speaker 2: Group of Death, but with a complicating element. Ecuador is

441
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 2: also in their group. We both think that Ecuador is

442
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,640
Speaker 2: going to really surprise people at the World Cup, and

443
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,640
Speaker 2: then they're also in a group with Kursow. So if

444
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 2: it were a traditional World Cup, you would look at

445
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 2: this as an absolute Group of death. Cote Devoir is

446
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 2: obviously not favored against either Ecuador or Germany. But this

447
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 2: isn't a traditional World Cup because more than two teams

448
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 2: will potentially get out of each group. And it looks

449
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,640
Speaker 2: to me like if you win by say two goals,

450
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 2: if you win one game by two goals and don't

451
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 2: lose your other games by too much, you will potentially

452
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 2: qualify as one of the best third place teams. Curisol,

453
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 2: I think, is the smallest nation ever to qualify for

454
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 2: the World Cup. It's a tiny nation. I think they're

455
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 2: happy to be there. I think that they're going to

456
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 2: struggle against all three of those teams, and if Kote

457
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:42,879
Speaker 2: of War can win that game against Curisow by a

458
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 2: few goals, they potentially are going to make it. Even

459
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 2: if they don't beat Germany or Ecuador, for sure, they

460
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 2: could potentially.

461
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 1: Make it to the knockout. Yas this might be the

462
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 1: year to get out of.

463
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 2: The groups, it might be I certainly think that's got

464
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,159
Speaker 2: to be the goal if you're the Cote of War

465
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 2: national team this year, it's got to be to for

466
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 2: the first time ever advance out of the grip.

467
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, you think could be okay? Batter Courros out, draw

468
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 1: with Ecuador, don't lose by too much to Germany.

469
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 2: Or alternately draw with Germany. I I go back and

470
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 2: forth on the German national team this year. I think

471
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:18,199
Speaker 2: they could be in trouble.

472
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, I hear you, I hear you on that.

473
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: The reason I said it that way is because I'm

474
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 1: presuming that's the logic from the I've Orient side, because

475
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 1: Germany has such cachet and legacy, you know, whereas Ecuador

476
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: is kind of gonna, like we both think, is going

477
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: to surprise some people.

478
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the reason I wanted to talk about Kotovar

479
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 2: is not just because of their fascinating football history, which

480
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 2: is really interesting, but also because of the role the

481
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 2: national football team has played in the nation's story of itself. So,

482
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 2: Curteivar had a terrible civil war in the early two thousands,

483
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 2: and they were in the midst of that civil war

484
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 2: when Coache of War qualified for its first ever World

485
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 2: Cup in two thousand and six. They beat Sudan away

486
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 2: and qualified for the World Cup. And then in the

487
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,479
Speaker 2: dressing room after the game, you may remember this, Daniel

488
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 2: Didier Drogba got down on his knees along with the

489
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 2: rest of his team. They were all on their knees

490
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 2: and Didier Drogba said, I'll quote this directly as translated

491
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 2: from the French. Today, we beg you on our knees,

492
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 2: the one country in Africa with so many riches must

493
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 2: not descend into war. Please lay down your weapons and

494
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 2: hold elections. Now, this moment has since often been credited

495
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 2: as this unifying moment that led to the varying factions

496
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 2: getting back to the negotiating table. I think that's a

497
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 2: little bit oversimplified from what I read. For one thing,

498
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 2: the war didn't really end until two thousand and seven,

499
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 2: so maybe a bit too much has been made of

500
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 2: that speech. But I think it's really telling that both

501
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 2: that moment is seen as this great unifying moment in

502
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 2: the history of Cote Deuvoir amid this civil war, but

503
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,199
Speaker 2: also then in two thousand and seven, to qualify for

504
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 2: the African Cup of Nations, they played a game in

505
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 2: rebel territory that was peacefully attended both by government soldiers

506
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: and rebel ones. And that speaks to what football can be,

507
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 2: which is a moment when we all say we're going

508
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 2: to be able to put some stuff aside in order

509
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 2: to enjoy the football together and root for a bigger

510
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 2: interest than any of us have, you know, within this conflict.

511
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 2: So I do think football can be one of the

512
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 2: pillars and props to help us endure and prevail. As

513
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,239
Speaker 2: Faulkner put it, not talking about football in particular. It's

514
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 2: the second time I've put it Faulkner's Nobel Prize speech today,

515
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 2: but it is a really good speech, to be fair.

516
00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: It reminds me don of Gosh. I guess it was

517
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen. I was living here in Bota, and I

518
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: remember on a Saturday, columb was playing its first game

519
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 1: in the World Cup, and on Sunday were the elections,

520
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 1: and Saturday was a day of absolute unity. And then

521
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: the very next day the column Columbians went to the

522
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 1: polls and basically there was a candidate for peace and

523
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: a candidate basically against the peace treat with the rebels,

524
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 1: and you know, and it just the contrast that the

525
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: polarization of Sunday versus the unity of Saturday was striking

526
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 1: to me as an outsider, and something I'll never never

527
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: quite forget. On Saturday everyone was pushing in the same direction.

528
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: And then the very next day, it was like, you know,

529
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: let's decide whether we want to keep killing each other

530
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: for another fifty years or not. It was remarkable who won.

531
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:54,959
Speaker 1: Santos won the peace candidate.

532
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 2: So I've been feeling that during the Olympics. I'm a

533
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 2: huge Olympics fan, as you can, because I love nations

534
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 2: coming together in peace and harmony. That's my whole jam,

535
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 2: that's my dream, is a truly internationalist global social order.

536
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 2: And when people say that I'm a globalist, they are correct.

537
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 2: So anyway, I love the Olympics. I love how the

538
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 2: Olympics can bring us together despite the corruption in you know,

539
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 2: the Olympic committees and everything else. And I find myself

540
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 2: inevitably like today, as we're recording this, I just saw

541
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 2: this morning. I woke up at six in the morning

542
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 2: to watch some cross country skiing and I saw an

543
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 2: American man won a cross country skiing medal for the

544
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 2: first time in a long time. And they, you know,

545
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 2: went back to his family in Vermont celebrating. They had

546
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 2: a camera trained on his mother, who was you know,

547
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 2: had both of her hands, her all of her fingers

548
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 2: crossed in both of her hands, and here is this

549
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 2: this glorious moment amid a really difficult disunited US story,

550
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 2: here is this moment where we can all root for

551
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 2: this guy from Vermont who kind of upset the world

552
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:19,479
Speaker 2: in cross country skiing.

553
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: I love it.

554
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it just it always gets me. It always

555
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 2: makes me cry.

556
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you are prone to emotional outbursts. No, it's true,

557
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 1: which is a great true. You know, you're in touch

558
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: with your emotional side in a way that a lot

559
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: of people aren't. I can be a crier too. I

560
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: cried during Bad Bunnies performance when he brought out all

561
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: the flags at the end at the Super Bowl. I

562
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 1: thought that was that was really lovely and very moving,

563
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: and I felt, like the kids say, I felt very seen.

564
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: You know, Peru. He mentioned Peru. He named all the

565
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: countries in Americas and mentioned Peru, and I was like,

566
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: Peru doesn't get mentioned ever, like ever, in any context. Yeah,

567
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: you know, And so for suddenly you're the place that

568
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: you're from and the place that where your heart is

569
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: a lot of times. To sort of be included was

570
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 1: super powerful. And I'll admit to tearing up at that moment.

571
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a beautiful moment. It's something that music

572
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 2: and sports gives us. I will say he forgot to

573
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 2: say Belize.

574
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: Oh you know, I have to go back and look

575
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: at that. That's really tough. That's harsh.

576
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I know he forgot to say believes because

577
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 2: I have a friend from Beliez who texted me and said,

578
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 2: I can't believe you forgot to say Belize.

579
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: I was impressed. You know, my son is a big

580
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: my younger son is a big geography nerd. Actually both

581
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: my kids are big geography nerds. And he was impressed

582
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: that he basically, you know, got them all, but we

583
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: didn't notice that he missed Belize. I'm very sorry for

584
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: the Belizeans. That's tough.

585
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but he did a good job in general.

586
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 2: I mean that's a high pressure situation to try to

587
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 2: play geography p and I thought he did a great job,

588
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 2: So shout out bad bunny.

589
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: I think I was being watched by one hundred and

590
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: fifty million people. I would forget the alphabet. Yeah, I

591
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: just wouldn't be able to handle it.

592
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 2: Are you ever at an event and somebody's like, do

593
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 2: you ever do like a reading or whatever? And somebody

594
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 2: asks you, like, what have you been reading? When somebody

595
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 2: asks me that everything I've ever read goes out of

596
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 2: my head. It's not just that I can't think about

597
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 2: what I'm currently reading. I can't think about any book

598
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 2: that I've ever read. I like, literally no books come

599
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 2: to mind.

600
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: The cat in the Hat, Yeah no I don't. I

601
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: just say everything is tuberculousis that's just.

602
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 2: My thank you, thank you very much. From now on,

603
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 2: I'll just say, lall city right now.

604
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: There you go, there you go.

605
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,719
Speaker 2: So so, I think the dream for Coachovoir this this

606
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 2: year is to get out of the group, to make

607
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 2: it to the knockout stages, and then anything can happen.

608
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 2: I think understanding for a US based fan to understand

609
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 2: that there are a lot of nations in this year's

610
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 2: World Cup that have a lot of Champions League players

611
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 2: and a lot of europe top level European players is

612
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 2: an important reminder because I think sometimes like part of

613
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 2: the reason fans of the US men's national team gets

614
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 2: so mad is because they think we should be better

615
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 2: than we are, but we aren't that great, like in

616
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 2: terms of in terms of the quality of our players,

617
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 2: Like we have really really good players, better players than

618
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 2: we've ever had, for sure, but you know, a lot

619
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 2: of countries have really good world class players who play

620
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 2: at the biggest clubs in Europe.

621
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely, Yeah, I think it's a it's interesting. I

622
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: think it's historically it's been easier for me too, for

623
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: the United States in soccer because we're the underdogs, and I,

624
00:33:55,000 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: you know, only mean people don't have the kind of

625
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: natural tendency to root for the underdog, so I always

626
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: want the underdog to win. And the United States is

627
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 1: a powerhouse in everything except world soccer and so and

628
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 1: human rights well okay, fair and and like you know,

629
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: health care, you know, and.

630
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 2: Access universal health. Yeah, there's a number of things in

631
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 2: which I would argue we aren't actually pushing the top

632
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 2: of the time.

633
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,879
Speaker 1: You go there, you go, No, that's that's that's absolutely true.

634
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 1: And I misspoke. Uh, it was not life expected. I mean,

635
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: I could please. It was not a fit of jingoism.

636
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,919
Speaker 1: It was just a sort of acknowledgment of the United

637
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 1: States's power economic and military power, I guess, is what

638
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 1: I was saying, but not in the other ways. It

639
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: probably mattered more for the well being of the population anyway. Yeah,

640
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: I I I'm rooting for Cultivar to get out of

641
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 1: the group. I'm sure they will. If I were a

642
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: betting man, I would put money on it. And I uh,

643
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: you know, like we said last week with with Uruguay,

644
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: the their goal is to, you know, according to Bruno,

645
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: eliminate Argentina. You know, I guess people don't think, don't

646
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 1: realize how hard it is. You're like, oh, you just

647
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: got to win four games or five games, you know,

648
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: but it's like, no, you got it. Like once you're

649
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: in the knockout stages, you know the intensity the pressure

650
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 1: of that. If you can have one dug performance, you know,

651
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: it's marvelous. You're giving your entire nation a moment of

652
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:26,280
Speaker 1: joy that they'll never forget.

653
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 2: I remember seeing when Sierra Leone drew an Afcon game

654
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 2: in two thousand and twenty four, twenty two. Maybe I

655
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 2: remember seeing videos that my friend sent me of just

656
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 2: everybody spilling out onto the streets. Yeah for a nil

657
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 2: nil draw. Everybody horns, honking, cow bells, ringing, just the

658
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 2: overwhelming joy. And if you can win just one knockout game,

659
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 2: or even qualify for the knockout rounds like that is

660
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 2: You're right, that's such a win. To your point about

661
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 2: if one hundred and twenty five million people are watching

662
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,839
Speaker 2: we forget the alphabet, Like more than one hundred twenty

663
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 2: five million people are watching. Your entire nation is watching that.

664
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 2: And to not forget the alphabet is an act of

665
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 2: tremendous heroism.

666
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,839
Speaker 1: To remember how to kick a ball like much less

667
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: kick it in any direction, is a huge concionment. We

668
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: should take a quick break. Done, I'm gonna come back

669
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: with a story. We're back on their way and John

670
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 1: and I have a story that's it's a very short story,

671
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 1: but it's an image and it's really powerful. I think

672
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: about that a lot. You're the father of adolescent teenage boy.

673
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: My oldest son is aging out of that demographic soon ish,

674
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 1: and my youngest son is going to be thirteen next month.

675
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,399
Speaker 1: So I think about this a lot because it has

676
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 1: a lot to do with sort of these ideas of manhood.

677
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 1: And it's a scene. So I'm in Buenos Aide's. This

678
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,399
Speaker 1: was maybe fifteen years ago, and I had a free

679
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 1: day and I'm just walking around to a lovely day.

680
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 1: I don't know how I ended up at this neighborhood

681
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: by his train station, and I was just kind of

682
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: having a coffee at the train station, just looking at

683
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: the people and just you know, I love people watching

684
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: and just kind of just being in the moment in

685
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: this city. I don't know, I don't know super well,

686
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: and I'm just sort of like enjoying it. Anyway, there's

687
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 1: families about it's lovely and the train station in the cafe,

688
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 1: and then there's like this long avenue that goes up

689
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 1: a hill away from the train station, and there's a

690
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 1: newspaper stand right and it's open on Sunday and people

691
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: are sort of you know, buying paper, having a smoke,

692
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 1: you know, doing sort of normal life things. The train

693
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: comes and I don't know where the train is from,

694
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 1: but out of the train emerge hordes of fans soccer fans, right,

695
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: They're all wearing red jerseys. I want to say they

696
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: were friends of being dip indiente, but I'm sure my

697
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:19,240
Speaker 1: Argentine friends will will correct me on this. Anyway. Two dozen,

698
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: three dozen, you know, just a swarm who emerge and

699
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: just proceed to destroy everything around them. So like it

700
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: goes from this like kind of idyllic, kind of relaxed

701
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 1: urban you know, Sunday mid morning scene to this like

702
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 1: immediately this kind of apocalyptic, terrifying moment where everyone is like,

703
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: you know, like businesses are shuttering, you know, like it's

704
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: just like oh shit, right, And what I remember is

705
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: that like these kids just this kind of unalloyed rage

706
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: going in every direction. Uh. These these two kids like

707
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: went to a lamppost and just started rocking it, like

708
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,720
Speaker 1: we're like, we're gonna knock this down, like for no reason.

709
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 1: It's just like, you know, they go to the they

710
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: sort of tore up the newspaper stand, you know, just

711
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 1: like you know, crazy. Now, this is the thing about it.

712
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: It happened to be walking down the street a family, mom, son, daughter.

713
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: The mom immediately sees what these groups coming. And I

714
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 1: didn't lock eyes with her, but I saw her in

715
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: that moment of realization where she sort of like is

716
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,839
Speaker 1: aware suddenly of what's about to happen. And her son

717
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 1: is wearing a blue jersey Boka Junior's jersey. I remember,

718
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: its blue and yellow. My sister immediately starts crying. The

719
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: hordes of red shirted fans are coming towards this young family.

720
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: The mom rips off her sweater and just embraces her

721
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: son and wraps it around him. Right. Wow, covers, covers

722
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 1: him completely so that you can better see it now.

723
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: The reaction of the kid is what I want to

724
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: point out, because the kid, who was this age of

725
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: you know, somewhere between the age of my son, my

726
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: youngest son, and your your son, is fighting his mom

727
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: wants to rip like like kind of like superhero style

728
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 1: like rip off. He's fighting, he's fighting, he's fighting, and

729
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 1: the mom is like desperate, you know, and she manages

730
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 1: with the sister doing nothing. The sister was helpless in

731
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: this situation because she was panicked, you know, not of

732
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 1: any fault of her own. I was panicked for myself,

733
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: but I was drinking my espresso. Pulls the kid aside

734
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: and he's he's like, ah, he wants the world to

735
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 1: know that he's a book, a fan, and and which

736
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 1: surely would have meant a pummeling or worse in front

737
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 1: of his sister and his mom. The horde is, you know,

738
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 1: full of rage and full of fury. But they're also

739
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,839
Speaker 1: you know, have the attention span of goldfish. So they

740
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 1: just are you know, destroy something and keep moving. And

741
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 1: within ninety seconds they've done their worst and they're moving

742
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: up the street, at which point the mom sort of relaxes.

743
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 1: The kid shakes off, you know, his mom, and she's

744
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: super mad, you know, like as if he's been emasculated,

745
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:32,879
Speaker 1: humiliated by his mother's attempt to save his life. Right,

746
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to. I don't. I don't

747
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: think I'm exaggerating. Actually, there have been many cases of

748
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: a fan violence in Latin America, in Argentina, in in

749
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 1: you know, in Europe. I mean this is not you know,

750
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 1: just there was a Champions League lass, you know, two

751
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: weeks ago where a fan was killed in Italy, a

752
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: Newcastle fan, you know. So I don't think I'm exaggerating.

753
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 1: So I saw this scene and I've thought about it

754
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,439
Speaker 1: a lot, because I've thought about that kind of self

755
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 1: destructive and tensity that fans have. And you know, when

756
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: the fandom is such the core of their identity that

757
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: it leads to this kind of it can lead to

758
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: the violence of the sort of the kids who emerge

759
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,479
Speaker 1: from the train. It can also lead to the kind

760
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 1: of willful denial of risk or just kind of like

761
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 1: you know, diluted risk assessment where the kid wants to

762
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 1: just shout at the precise wrong moment, Hey, I'm a book,

763
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 1: A fan come kill me, and also the desperate maternal

764
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: instinct to save her son from himself. It was such

765
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:42,240
Speaker 1: a moving moment, and I've thought about where that energy

766
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: where That adolescent and let's call it, it's an adolescent

767
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: male energy mostly goes, you know, when that kid who

768
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 1: might have been fourteen or fifteen is you know, sixteen,

769
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 1: eighteen twenty, You know, where does that go and what

770
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,919
Speaker 1: bad I worried about that kid a lot in my life,

771
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 1: and I worry about him the more I see my

772
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 1: kid grow up. I also worry, like, where where does

773
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 1: that energy go? And what ill effects might it have?

774
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 1: So that's my story. You as a father, you know

775
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: what do you think?

776
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I understand all parts of the story.

777
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 2: I have a weird understanding of that urge to even

778
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 2: not at the age of sixteen, even at the age

779
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 2: of forty eight, that urged to say, like, I am

780
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 2: a Wimbledon fan in Milton Keynes or whatever it is.

781
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 2: You know, I remember once I was so the third

782
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 2: tier English soccer team I sponsor AFC. Wimbledon has a rival,

783
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,760
Speaker 2: Milton Keynes. But it's a different rivalry from most football

784
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 2: rivalries because Milton Keynes stole AFC Wimbledon's history and place

785
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 2: in the league and everything else when the team was

786
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 2: moved to Milton Keynes from Wimbledon, and so they really

787
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 2: there's some real negative energy there. We think they shouldn't

788
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 2: dig they hate us, et cetera. One time I was

789
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 2: going to a Milton Keynes game and I got off

790
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 2: the train with friends and I'm a middle aged man

791
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 2: and I saw these kids wearing Milton Keynes shirts and

792
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 2: they were, you know, looking at me and sort of threateningly,

793
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 2: and I thought to myself, am I going to get

794
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:18,439
Speaker 2: in a fight?

795
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: Like? Wow?

796
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 2: I felt like getting in a fight, and I never

797
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 2: feel like getting enough. I haven't felt like getting in

798
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 2: a fight since I was thirteen. But it's real, you know,

799
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 2: Like it's such a I think adolescent male energy is

800
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,760
Speaker 2: a great phrase for it, but it doesn't go away

801
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 2: when you stop being an adolescent. You just hopefully get

802
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 2: better at controlling it. Yeah, So, Daniel, we've been getting

803
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 2: some emails at away ndpod at gmail dot com. Thanks

804
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 2: to everybody for writing in. I wanted to begin with

805
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 2: this quick correction from Ava, who wrote to tell us

806
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 2: that there is a very good reason why there is

807
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 2: not orange in the Dutch flag. It has something to

808
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 2: do with the French question mark. More importantly, in the

809
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 2: nineteen thirties, the Dutch NSB part the fascist pro Nazi party,

810
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 2: revived the colors and took the orange white blue flag

811
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,879
Speaker 2: as a political statement, and in response, Queen Wilhelmina signed

812
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 2: a decree that red, white and blue are the official

813
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 2: and forever colors of the Dutch flag. That's why incorporating

814
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 2: orange into the Dutch flag is anything but simple. Cool

815
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 2: podcast DFDBA AVA so love that Ava is there pointing

816
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 2: out that when we said that maybe there should be

817
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 2: orange in the Dutch flag, there is a very good

818
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 2: reason why there is not orange in the Dutch flag,

819
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:31,839
Speaker 2: and I support that. Yeah, we're pro Suddenly we're very

820
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 2: pro red white and yeah, no, it's great Dutch flag.

821
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 1: It's great, Queen Wilhelmina, well done. Applause.

822
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 2: We also got an email from Connor, who writes, Dear

823
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 2: John and Daniel, I've been really enjoying listening to podcasts

824
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 2: and Todaybute. I'm a longtime fan of John from his

825
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 2: other work, and I have enjoyed learning about Daniel his

826
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 2: work in the Pruvian national team. I am not a

827
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 2: particularly knowledgeable football fan, but I'm excited to hear your

828
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 2: thoughts about the Republic of Ireland's chances for qualifying for

829
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 2: the World Cup. Also, have you seen the highlights from

830
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,720
Speaker 2: Troy perrotzatrick over Hungary which kept our qualification hopes alive?

831
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,720
Speaker 2: And what are your thoughts on that? Many thanks, Connor,

832
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 2: ps keep up the good work. I especially appreciate hearing

833
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,399
Speaker 2: your compassionate thoughts on the political landscape as we near

834
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 2: the World Cup. So, Connor, I've got good news and

835
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 2: bad news. The good news is I did enjoy Troy

836
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 2: Parrot's hat trick against Hungary.

837
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:14,879
Speaker 1: He loved it.

838
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:22,720
Speaker 2: Miraculous, attempt to incredible, incredible joy. Want to see Ireland

839
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 2: qualify for the World Cup so badly, Daniel. What do

840
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:26,319
Speaker 2: you think their chances are?

841
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 1: I think I also always want to echo all that

842
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,320
Speaker 1: I think a World Cup with Irish fans and the

843
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: Irish team would be extraordinary, especially in the US with

844
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:40,399
Speaker 1: such a large diaspora of Irish Americans. It's gonna be tough.

845
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 1: It's gonna be really tough.

846
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 2: It's gonna be tough.

847
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 1: Do you know off the top of the group, darn

848
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: I just want to mention that Troy Perrit didn't just

849
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 1: score the hat trick. I get's Hungary. He scored a

850
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 1: brace in the prest game against Portugal. Right.

851
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Troy Parrott is an absolute legend of Irish football.

852
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:03,240
Speaker 2: Incredible really in credible performance. So they will be taking

853
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 2: on the Czech Republic and then either Denmark or North Macedonia.

854
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 2: If they beat the Czech Republic, I think that's a

855
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 2: tough road.

856
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: I think that's a tough road. Denmark is not an

857
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 1: easy out. No.

858
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 2: I think they might be able to beat the Czech Republic,

859
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 2: but I think it's going to be really really hard

860
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 2: to beat Denmark or even North Macedonia.

861
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 1: Do you know where these games are played or they

862
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 1: played home and away or no?

863
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 2: Check the first one is played in the Czech Republic

864
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 2: and then the second one is played in Dublin.

865
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 1: Okay, Wow, that's gonna be tough.

866
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's gonna be rough. But I will say this

867
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 2: with Troy pair at all things are possible. And the

868
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 2: great thing about football is that wild upsets do happen,

869
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 2: and go on a good run, win two games and

870
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 2: you get to go to the World Cup.

871
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I'm so glad we got through that entire segment

872
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 1: without referencing their lack of Irish. Really well done, Oh,

873
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 1: very well done, Very well done by us. I want

874
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 1: to read one more question. This one I think is

875
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:07,959
Speaker 1: good for both of us because it's about the space

876
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 1: we have it, which is literature and football. Dear mister

877
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: a Larcon and mister Green, very respectful. The awayn could

878
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 1: not come at a better time. As a Canadian, I

879
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 1: view of sports growing up typically was focused on the

880
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 1: stereotypical hockey, baseball, basketball. I've been lucky to live in

881
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,760
Speaker 1: Britain for a time, taking an EPL in Scottis Premiership games,

882
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 1: which is coincided in excitement at our women's soccer success

883
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 1: while denouncing a certain scandal with certain coaching and certain

884
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 1: usage of drones at a certain internal stage. Interesting all

885
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: this say, it feels like an exciting time for soccer football.

886
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 1: My question for you, as fans and as writers, do

887
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 1: you have any favorite soccer football books generally about the

888
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,320
Speaker 1: sport or teams or leagues or moments defining the sport?

889
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 1: And do you have any books that make the sport

890
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,399
Speaker 1: more accessible for a new fan? It feels overwhelming without

891
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 1: which information there is out there, and I'm unsure where

892
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,359
Speaker 1: to begin so I can better appreciate the sport today. Arigiana.

893
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 1: Thank you Arijiana for that question. I'll go first. That's okay, John.

894
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 1: There's a there's a great, great book. It is less

895
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:09,760
Speaker 1: about the sport but more about sort of the the

896
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 1: intersection of sport of soccer and and politics, which I

897
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 1: really love, is called The Soccer War by Richard Kapucchinski,

898
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 1: and it tells the story of soccer game in Central

899
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:27,839
Speaker 1: America that degenerates into an actual shooting war, and and

900
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:32,800
Speaker 1: it's it's a really brilliant piece of reportage. And then

901
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 1: I think, obviously Among the Thugs is one of the

902
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 1: kind of classics.

903
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 2: Of Bill Buford's book.

904
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 1: Do you have anything to coming to bund John? Oh wait, you,

905
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 1: as soon as I ask you, you forget all the books

906
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 1: you've read, so right, Law City Radio. It is not

907
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 1: about soccer. No.

908
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 2: I I prepared because I saw this question, so I

909
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 2: I prepared some notes, thankfully. The first one I would

910
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 2: recommend is is called Brilliant Orange. It is a history

911
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 2: of the Dutch national football team that kind of is

912
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 2: also a history of football in general and why people

913
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 2: love football so much, and the question that we're going

914
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 2: to explore in this podcast as to whether or not

915
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 2: there is or can be said to be a national

916
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 2: style of football and the extent to which that national

917
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:24,839
Speaker 2: style may mimic other facets of culture in a community.

918
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 2: I really love that book. And then the second one

919
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 2: is a much more recent book about the World Cup

920
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:32,919
Speaker 2: called The Power in the Glory by Jonathan Wilson, who

921
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 2: also wrote Inverting the Pyramid, a.

922
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 1: Classic of man, he's so good.

923
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's amazing. And this book, The Power in the Glory,

924
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 2: is really about the intersection between international soccer and geopolitics

925
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 2: and nation building. It's a really fascinating book, and it

926
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 2: just goes World Cup by World Cup and examines each

927
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 2: of the World Cup winners and the the dramas at

928
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 2: home that that fueled or challenge those wins. It's really great,

929
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 2: So I recommend both those.

930
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 1: All Right, we had a few more emails that we're

931
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 1: not going to have time to get to, but I

932
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:15,399
Speaker 1: want to thank everyone who wrote in and please keep

933
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 1: writing us with your questions, comments, suggestions for topics Away

934
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: endpod at gmail dot com, and with what remains of

935
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:26,319
Speaker 1: my voice, I want to say thank you John, and

936
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:28,359
Speaker 1: thank you to our producer Sean, who did not make

937
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:33,359
Speaker 1: it on screen this time, weirdly, but we'll remedy that

938
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 1: for next week, I'm sure. And of course our producer

939
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 1: Kurt and I never called you from listening. John, See

940
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:40,439
Speaker 1: you next week, man, see you then,