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Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. The song Home Sick is

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Speaker 1: a song from my youth. It resonates in my ears,

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Speaker 1: came out in the seventies and if you've never heard it,

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Speaker 1: it kind of takes you back on a bit of

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Speaker 1: a time travel if you will. I love ars. Other

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Speaker 1: people have recorded I think Travis Tript recorded it or

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Speaker 1: re recorded it, but it takes you back in time

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Speaker 1: to that moment you begin to think as kids, as

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Speaker 1: kids of the sixties, where were you well. I was

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Speaker 1: just a little thing back then. I was playing in

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Speaker 1: the backyard of my grandparents' house, where I lived most

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Speaker 1: of the time. It was a very people It's a

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Speaker 1: well worn phrase. People say it's very innocent time, and

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Speaker 1: it was for me, playing in my sandpile, enjoying life

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Speaker 1: in the Deep South. The further thing from my mind

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Speaker 1: back then was probably mass homicide in the news nationally.

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Speaker 1: It sent a chill down everyone spote of the horrors

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Speaker 1: that were revealed back in nineteen sixty nine, of what

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Speaker 1: was going on in Alick County, particularly as it applied

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Speaker 1: to the Manson family. Today owned body Bags. We're going

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Speaker 1: to turn back the page a little bit and we're

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Speaker 1: going to re examine the murders of the Lobiyankas.

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Speaker 2: August eleventh, nineteen sixty nine, Rosemary Labianca's teenage son discovers

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Speaker 2: the brutal murders carried out by three of Charles Manson's

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Speaker 2: followers the night before. Leno LaBianca had been stabbed twelve

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Speaker 2: times with a knife or bayonet and seven times with

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Speaker 2: a two tined carving fork, leaving fourteen puncture wounds in

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Speaker 2: his abdomen, was still stuck in his abdomen, and a

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Speaker 2: kitchen knife pierced his throat. The word war had also

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Speaker 2: been carved into his abdomen. Rosemary Lebianca had a total

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Speaker 2: of forty one stab wounds on the front and back

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Speaker 2: of her body, and autopsy showed that many of the

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Speaker 2: wounds were post mortem.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body bags. Hey,

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Speaker 1: Dave mac where were you in sixty nine?

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Speaker 3: I was a very very young child. This murder, the

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Speaker 3: Tate Lobianca murders, as they are commonly referred to, I

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Speaker 3: had actually impacted my life on a personal level and

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Speaker 3: professionally over the years because I lived in that area

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Speaker 3: when this happened. I was born and raised in southern California,

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Speaker 3: born in Hawthorne and raised in Orange County predominantly. But anyway,

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Speaker 3: when this happened, here's the thing that people may or

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Speaker 3: man I know and Joe you might not know. It

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Speaker 3: happened August eighth, August ninth, nineteen sixty nine. Think about

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Speaker 3: some of the things that was actually happening in the

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Speaker 3: world a couple weeks earlier. Neil Armstrong Man on the Moon.

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Speaker 1: You bet, buddy, I remember it. I remember watching on

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Speaker 1: black and white television my grandparents' house. It was a

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Speaker 1: magical thing.

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Speaker 3: So that's a huge deal. Made everybody, I mean just

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Speaker 3: made everybody feel like anything's possible. And a week after

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Speaker 3: the murders, what else happened? Wouldstock in New York right,

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Speaker 3: so imagine and by the way, and mixed into this

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Speaker 3: same time period Chap Equittic and Teddy Kennedy, So we

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Speaker 3: had a lot going on in the United States of

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Speaker 3: America at the time that Rosemary and Leno Labianco were murdered.

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Speaker 3: It impacted my life because being in southern California when

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Speaker 3: Sharon Tate along with her friends and off the top

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Speaker 3: of my head, I remember it was Abagail Folger and

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Speaker 3: Voytek Freikowski, Jay se Bring and then they had the

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Speaker 3: like a guy that was like the yardkeeper. Anyway, that

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Speaker 3: was such a big deal because first of all, Sharon

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Speaker 3: Tate was a buful model. She was an actress married

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Speaker 3: to Roman Polanski, the master of the macabre. Because of

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Speaker 3: Rosemary's Baby. You start thinking about how all these things

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Speaker 3: kind of come together, and it's like crazy time. But

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Speaker 3: the next night the Labyancas, and that was fear in

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Speaker 3: the hearts of people. Sharon Tate and celebrity rich people

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Speaker 3: getting murdered is one thing, but the Lobyancas were looked

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Speaker 3: at as just regular people like the rest of us,

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Speaker 3: and now nobody's safe.

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Speaker 1: There's one little interesting factoid I think that some people

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Speaker 1: might not be aware of, and I got it to

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Speaker 1: give you an idea, a measure for how innocent Tim's

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Speaker 1: were when the Labyanka's bodies were actually discovered that cannot

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Speaker 1: get access to the home, that is the family that

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Speaker 1: they were trying to open the door to get in.

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Speaker 1: Guess where they got the key from to unlock the

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Speaker 1: door to get into the house under the mat No,

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Speaker 1: they went and dig this just for a second. They

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Speaker 1: went out to the vehicle parked in the driveway, and

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Speaker 1: the keys were in the ignition, and they take the

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Speaker 1: key out of the ignition and make access to this

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Speaker 1: house with that key. And can you just imagine when

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Speaker 1: Rosemary Labanca's children went into this environment and they see

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Speaker 1: these words scrawled in blood on the walls, on the doors.

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Speaker 1: I think, most famously the words helter skelter. By the way,

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Speaker 1: I think it was misspelled. And there's several interesting things

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Speaker 1: about this is because some people think that it was

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Speaker 1: intentionally misspelled. There were little clues along the way. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if any of these people were that sophisticated.

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Speaker 1: You walk in and you see this horror show, and

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Speaker 1: it was truly a horror show. Lots and lots of

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Speaker 1: blood evidence at the scene, and I don't know that

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Speaker 1: you could necessarily take the measure of it. You have

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Speaker 1: the police coming off the so called Tate homicides on

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Speaker 1: CLO and then you walk into this environment, and you know,

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Speaker 1: there was resistance at first by the police to at

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Speaker 1: least publicly show any kind of connectivity between what had

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Speaker 1: happened previously with Sharon Tate and that group of people,

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Speaker 1: and then what had happened with the Labiancas, and it

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Speaker 1: all goes to what was trying to be accomplished here.

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Speaker 1: I think with the police one of the biggest things

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Speaker 1: for them is they were trying to prevent a panic

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Speaker 1: because can you imagine what those conversations were like, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the detective bureau when you've got arguably two blood

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Speaker 1: baths that have taken place, and you've got the shadow

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Speaker 1: of celebrity that's kind of hanging over both of these events,

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Speaker 1: with Sharon Tate and everyone up on Colo, and then

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Speaker 1: you've got the Lobyancas. Okay, so they're starting up here

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Speaker 1: in relative to the celebrities. Now they're going out here

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Speaker 1: where the rest of us mix and mingle, the mere

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Speaker 1: mortals among us.

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Speaker 3: And the one thing to think of again, nineteen sixty

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Speaker 3: nine was a different time and the way we lived

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Speaker 3: the Tate Lobianca murders. Joe, we could actually spend all

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Speaker 3: of today, tomorrow the next day talking just about these murders,

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Speaker 3: and we would go for twenty four hours a day

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Speaker 3: for the next few d and wouldn't finish. There's too much.

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Speaker 3: So focusing on the Labyancas, they were married couple. They

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Speaker 3: actually were the next day, meaning the day after the

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Speaker 3: Tate murders had taken place. And the reason it's in

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Speaker 3: the news this week is because Leslie Van Howden actually

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Speaker 3: was released from prison after fifty some odd years. Now

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Speaker 3: here's the kick, Joe, and you've been around crime scenes

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Speaker 3: and murders for a long time. I really want to

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Speaker 3: hear your explanation of what police were looking at when

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Speaker 3: they got to the scene of the crime. But the

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Speaker 3: bottom line is with Leslie van Houghten being a Manson

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Speaker 3: family member, one of the women, well she actually only

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Speaker 3: was involved in the Labyanca murders. She was not at

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Speaker 3: the previous night's activities. At the Lobyanca crime scene, you

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Speaker 3: had Tex Watson, he and Charlie Ye And by the way,

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Speaker 3: Charlie Manson was not at the Tape murders. He was, however,

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Speaker 3: at the Lobbyanca house.

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Speaker 1: At the house, but he beat feet before the actual

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Speaker 1: event occurred.

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Speaker 3: Right they get there. Well, I'm gonna skip through this

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Speaker 3: real fast. Charlie Manson had convinced these young people that

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Speaker 3: a race war was coming and they needed to have

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Speaker 3: a safe place out in the desert, which is why

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Speaker 3: they were maneuvered out there. In reality, they were out

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Speaker 3: there because they'd been stealing volkswagons and converting them into

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Speaker 3: doom buggies and selling them, and the heat was getting hot,

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Speaker 3: and so they wanted to get out of town. And

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Speaker 3: Charlie went there and in their drug whatever decided that

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Speaker 3: they needed to commit crimes. The Manson family that would

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Speaker 3: they needed to commit murders that didn't make sense. That's

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Speaker 3: what the La Beiyanca murder was all about, a murder

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Speaker 3: that didn't make any sense and would cause fear and

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Speaker 3: panic in people. And Leslie Van Henton said that in

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Speaker 3: her own words. By the way, I actually listened to

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Speaker 3: this yesterday in preparation for the show and heard her

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Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy one talking to her new lawyer. He said,

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Speaker 3: how are you going to start a revolution? She actually said,

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Speaker 3: Joe by committing a senseless murder, which is exactly what

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Speaker 3: Leno and Rosemary LaBianca. It was just a murder. But

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Speaker 3: anyway I mentioned, Charles Manson was not at the Tate House, well,

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Speaker 3: he was at the Labyankas. Charles Manson and Text Watson

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Speaker 3: go inside the La Bianca's house. And by the way,

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Speaker 3: these mental giants. The Manson family. They've been driving around

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Speaker 3: for a couple hours looking for a place that they

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Speaker 3: could go in and commit this heinous act. Right they

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Speaker 3: didn't find one right away, and so Leslie van out

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Speaker 3: and said she fall asleep in the car as they

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Speaker 3: were driving around. When she woke up, Charles and Tex

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Speaker 3: Watson had gone in the house and they'd already tied

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Speaker 3: up Leno and Rosemary Labiyanca. They found Lino on the

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Speaker 3: couch in the living room in the den, and so

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Speaker 3: they tied him up, and then Charlie Manson went in

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Speaker 3: and they got Rosemary out of bed, she was already

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Speaker 3: in bed, got her up and you know, sign of

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Speaker 3: the Times, maybe Joe. But before they brought Rosemary Lobyanka

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Speaker 3: out of the bedroom, she was already in her night clothes.

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Speaker 3: And do you know what she did? And they let

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Speaker 3: her They let her put on a dress. Rosemary Lobianca

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Speaker 3: was allowed to put on a dress over her night clothes,

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Speaker 3: to be dressed appropriately for what she thought was just

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Speaker 3: a robbery. Charles Manson and Text Watson said, you're not

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Speaker 3: going to be hurt. We just want your money. So

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Speaker 3: they got the cash and then Charlie goes outside, they

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Speaker 3: send the girls in. They sent Leslie van Houghton and

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Speaker 3: Patricia Crinwinkle to go in and kill Rosemary Lobby.

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Speaker 1: One interesting little aside here is that you think about

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Speaker 1: Manson and kind of how he had been prepping this crew.

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Speaker 1: That's the way you have to look at it. It's

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Speaker 1: an organized crime venture, is what it comes down to.

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Speaker 1: Because they were a collection of thieves, is essentially what

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Speaker 1: they were. And of course they're fueled by asurgic acid

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Speaker 1: to a great degree. You know, it's been well documented

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Speaker 1: stated that they would drop LSD. There's some people that

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Speaker 1: have actually opined that Manson himself would fake taking LSD

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Speaker 1: and then everybody else would have it on board and

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Speaker 1: he could influence them and begin to talk to them

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Speaker 1: when they're tripping essentially. But one of the things that

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Speaker 1: he would do, to give you back to this idea

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Speaker 1: of thievery, this being a theft ring, is that he

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Speaker 1: introduced them to something called creepy crawling. He would actually

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Speaker 1: have these people go out and purposefully go into residences

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Speaker 1: in a stealth like manner, and the trick was not

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Speaker 1: to be caught, and they would go in and perhaps

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Speaker 1: rearrange things and not necessarily take anything, but just to

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Speaker 1: kind of hone these skills so that they could go

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Speaker 1: in and commit thievery, stealing, if you will, burglary and

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Speaker 1: not be caught. I think here's the big question though,

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Speaker 1: If that's the case, what is it that would motivate

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Speaker 1: a band of thieves that lived out in the desert,

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Speaker 1: away from society. What is it that caused them to

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Speaker 1: commit such a horrible, horrible crime. There's a couple of

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Speaker 1: classic images, black and white photography of the exterior of

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Speaker 1: the scene up on Siela, where the Tate home was

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Speaker 1: and where that multiple homicide took place. In One that

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Speaker 1: really jumps to mind is there's an image of one

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Speaker 1: of my heroes at the scene, and that's doctor Tom Magucci,

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Speaker 1: who was with the Medical Examiner corner back during that

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Speaker 1: time at Los Angeles, probably arguably one of the greatest

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Speaker 1: forensic pathologists that's ever worked in my way of estimation.

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Speaker 1: But he was at the scene and what he bore

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Speaker 1: witness to there. He's talked about or had talked about

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Speaker 1: previously on many occasions at the Tate residence. Horrible things

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Speaker 1: had happened, obviously over the years and we see this

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Speaker 1: carnage that erupts from time to time, but I don't

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Speaker 1: know that anybody could really fully appreciate what they were

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Speaker 1: seeing then and try to make sense of it, the

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Speaker 1: level of brutality. And so one interesting little point bringing

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Speaker 1: it back to the Lobbyanca double homicide is that apparently

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Speaker 1: at first the investigators really were thinking that they might

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Speaker 1: be dealing with a copycat crime. That the word had

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Speaker 1: leaked out at that point in time about how horrific

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Speaker 1: the Tate homicides were, and then you see this horror

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Speaker 1: show that takes place at the Lobbyanca household. They're thinking, Okay,

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Speaker 1: somebody read about this and they just wanted to see

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Speaker 1: if they could duplicate it. What do you think about that, Dave.

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Speaker 3: I lived there in this area at that time as

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Speaker 3: a young child, And one of the things that I

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Speaker 3: think people forget it's about copycat crimes. There was so

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Speaker 3: much made about Sharon Tate because she was eight and

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Speaker 3: a half months pregnant when she was murdered, and this

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Speaker 3: was a horrible crime scene and it was splashed everywhere.

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Speaker 3: And then you have this normal middle class Rosemary and

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Speaker 3: Lena LaBianca being murdered, and there was some thought that

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Speaker 3: copycat crimes were going to occur. My family personally, we

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Speaker 3: were moving into a a different home, a bigger home.

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Speaker 3: In the process of the move Joe Scott Morgan, I

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Speaker 3: remember going to that house on our move in was

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Speaker 3: delayed for some reason. I was a kid, I don't

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Speaker 3: you know. I didn't know why at the time, but

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Speaker 3: I know that when we got there the week after Halloween,

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Speaker 3: you could still see the chalk outline in the next

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Speaker 3: door neighbors driveway where a dead body had been. We

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Speaker 3: didn't know if it was actually a Halloween prank or

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Speaker 3: if there was a copycat murder, because that's what we

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Speaker 3: were all talking about at the time. One thing people

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Speaker 3: need to know is that while the murders took place

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Speaker 3: August eight, nine ten, the Tate Lobianca murders, that they

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Speaker 3: were not caught right away. It was actually a couple

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Speaker 3: of months, and there was a lot of tabloid journalism

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Speaker 3: at work and a lot of very poorly researched information,

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Speaker 3: so it was a lot of lies. A lot of

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Speaker 3: myths were being created at the time. But when you

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Speaker 3: get right down to it, there were only three people

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Speaker 3: inside the house for the lobbyancas that actually committed the murders,

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Speaker 3: and that's Tax Watson, Patricia Crinwinkle, and Leslie van Houghton,

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Speaker 3: Charles Manson. He did go in the house and he

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Speaker 3: in text tied up Leno and Rosemary Lobyanca, but Charles

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Speaker 3: left because he's that kind of guy. And he told

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Speaker 3: them the night before at the Tate resident that it

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Speaker 3: had been very messy, and he said, don't you know,

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Speaker 3: let's make it more clean. And when he of course,

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Speaker 3: he takes off with other members of the family there

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Speaker 3: and he leaves the job of murder up to Patricia

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Speaker 3: cram with Leslie van Houghton, who were supposed to take

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Speaker 3: out Rosemary and tex who was supposed to take out Leno.

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Speaker 3: When it actually happened, Leslie van Houghton had never killed

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Speaker 3: anybody before, and she wrote and talked about some things

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Speaker 3: that I'm kind of I'm hoping you'll explain this to us.

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Speaker 3: She actually pointed out some things that were just horrific

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Speaker 3: to me. But setting the stage inside the house, Lino

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Speaker 3: and Rosemary LaBianca have both been tied up. Their hands

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Speaker 3: are tied in the case of Rosemary LaBianca, A pillow

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Speaker 3: case had been placed over her head and it had

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Speaker 3: been tied off with a lamp cord. But they didn't

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Speaker 3: bother like rip the cord off the lamp. The lamp

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Speaker 3: was still attached. So Rosemary LaBianca hands tied up the

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Speaker 3: pillow case over her head and she's sitting there. Lino meanwhile,

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Speaker 3: Lebyanka had his hands tied and he also is sitting

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Speaker 3: and waiting for the robbery to finish, because that's what

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Speaker 3: they were told. Since Charles Manson and those guys are

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Speaker 3: down the road, that's when the murder begins. Tex Watson

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Speaker 3: took charge of killing Lino LaBianca, Patricia Creenwinkle, and Leslie

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Speaker 3: Van Houghten. It was their job to kill Rosemary in

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Speaker 3: her bedroom. To Rosemary Labyanca, already we had text Watson

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Speaker 3: stabbing away on Lino just I mean horrifically. But Leslie

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Speaker 3: Van Houghton said later that it wasn't new for Text,

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Speaker 3: he had done this before, he had killed before. For

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Speaker 3: Leslie Van Houghten to kill Rosemary Labyanca, it was horrific,

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Speaker 3: to the point that she didn't know what it was

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Speaker 3: like cutting through human flesh. She thought it would be different.

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Speaker 3: Joseph Scott Morgan, and I wonder how many of us

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Speaker 3: because I've never thought about it until I read that,

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Speaker 3: how many has really thought about what it would be? Like,

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Speaker 3: what force does it take to actually kill somebody with

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Speaker 3: a knife. That's a personal thing. If you're shooting somebody,

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Speaker 3: you can do it from a distance. With a knife,

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Speaker 3: you're up close and personal. It is very personal. And

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Speaker 3: so while Leslie Van Houghton and Patricia Creamwinkle are trying

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Speaker 3: to kill Rosemary Lebyanka in her bedroom, Rosemary fights back

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Speaker 3: and the lamp cord used to keep that pillow case

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Speaker 3: on her head, well, the lamp now becomes a weapon.

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Speaker 3: She can't see, but she was fighting for her life

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Speaker 3: and winning. She was beating Leslie Van Houghton and Patricia

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Speaker 3: cremwigill to the point where they yelled protext Watson. He's

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Speaker 3: in the middle of stabbing Lino and they're like, Tex,

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Speaker 3: you got to get in here now. He had already

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Speaker 3: stabbed Lena LaBianca a Lotleno had no fight left in him,

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Speaker 3: so Tex left him to go back and help them

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Speaker 3: kill Rosemary Labyanca.

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Speaker 1: With the participation of Van Houghten. I think that it's

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Speaker 1: important to remember that she was out of the so

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Speaker 1: called Manson family. She was one of the youngest members

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Speaker 1: nineteen at the time, I believe.

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Speaker 3: High school cheerleader and prince at homecoming princess.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, from this area of the country as well. She's

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Speaker 1: one of these kind of people that was kind of

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Speaker 1: glommed on to Manson. However, later reports say that she

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Speaker 1: was kind of a leader among these folks, but she

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Speaker 1: wasn't present when the Tate murders took place. She was

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Speaker 1: specifically brought in to handle the Lobyancas, these random people

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Speaker 1: that they had identified. And what's quite interesting when you

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Speaker 1: begin to kind of explore what happened at this residence

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Speaker 1: that particular night with Lobyanca, mister Lobianca, all of his

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Speaker 1: injuries are essentially anterior, which means on the front of

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Speaker 1: his body, and there are multiple stab wounds to his

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Speaker 1: neck and to his abdomen, and he died as a

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Speaker 1: result of massive hemorrhage, which means that every time this

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Speaker 1: knife is plunged into his body, that you're creating another

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Speaker 1: channel for blood to kind of seep out, and he's

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Speaker 1: going to be bleeding out internally. When you begin to

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Speaker 1: look through the autopsy reports on him. His right carotid artery,

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Speaker 1: which is the major artery in the neck that essentially

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Speaker 1: supplies the brain with blood, is the right one on

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Speaker 1: the right aspect of People will essentially place your index

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Speaker 1: finger just to the right of your trachea. It's rest

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Speaker 1: right in this area. So that knife was buried through

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Speaker 1: that surface into his neck. It's completely what they've referred

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Speaker 1: to as transsected. In addition to that, he's got a

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Speaker 1: laceration of his trachea. So if you take that orientation

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Speaker 1: that we just mentioned about the carotid artery and slightly

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Speaker 1: move over to the midline which people refer to as

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Speaker 1: the wind pipe with the trachia, it's lacerated as well,

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Speaker 1: which means that Dave, this is not just merely a

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Speaker 1: slice when they say laceration, You've got this kind of

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Speaker 1: blunting action that's taking the edges and the margins of

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Speaker 1: this thing. Would not have been very neat and moving

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Speaker 1: from the top of the body. Just to give you

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Speaker 1: an idea how extensive this was. They had taken the

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Speaker 1: knife and buried it into not just his small bowel,

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Speaker 1: but also his large bowel, into his colon, so you've

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Speaker 1: got insults that are running the full length of his

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Speaker 1: upper body, and when the body is received at the morgue,

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Speaker 1: I can only imagine at that moment in time they're

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Speaker 1: trying to make sense of One of the things that

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Speaker 1: you're always asked about with these types of events, are

364
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Speaker 1: sequencing in what order did these things actually occur? And

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Speaker 1: you begin to think about, well, it's not necessarily possible

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Speaker 1: to be able to tell anyone what sequence they actually

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Speaker 1: took place in. There's been a lot of as they

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Speaker 1: used to say, ink slung over the injuries that LaBianca

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Speaker 1: sustained probably one of the more striking things. Even at

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Speaker 1: the scene, the corner investigator made note of the fact

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Speaker 1: that there was some kind of rudimentary engraving on the

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Speaker 1: surface of this man's abdomen, and the word, as it

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Speaker 1: turns out, was the word war. This means that the

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Speaker 1: individual that had done this would have had to have

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Speaker 1: had the will to sit there and make this happen,

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Speaker 1: to actually sit there and be able to perhaps tolerate

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Speaker 1: the sounds of this man as life is leaving his body,

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Speaker 1: taking the tip of a knife which they believe was utilized,

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Speaker 1: and making it through the dermis of his skin, so

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Speaker 1: that the individuals could appreciate that later on when they

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Speaker 1: walked onto the scene. This goes into areas like motivation,

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Speaker 1: you know, why would somebody do this? And going back

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Speaker 1: with our theme here, the idea that back during this

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Speaker 1: time the police are trying to make sense of this.

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Speaker 1: And then interestingly enough, one of the things that was

386
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Speaker 1: also documented was this idea of the carving fork that

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Speaker 1: was left behind the individual little points on forks or

388
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Speaker 1: referred to as times, well, the times for carving fork,

389
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Speaker 1: only two of them. I think that in some of

390
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Speaker 1: the media that's out there, these movies that have been

391
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Speaker 1: created over the years, I think there was one in particular,

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Speaker 1: the very graphic where they showed the victim the actor

393
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 1: was stabbed with a fork and it was kind of

394
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 1: bouncing about and that sort of thing. This was actually

395
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 1: a superficial wound. And the corner investigator makes an interesting

396
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: point here, and this goes to the larger group of

397
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 1: evidence here in this case where he talks about if

398
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Speaker 1: they had not removed that fork, that carving fork from

399
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,920
Speaker 1: mister Labianca's abdomen, it could very well have fallen out

400
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 1: and they would have lost the evidence at that moment

401
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 1: in time. For us in forensics, you know kind of

402
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: our rule of thumb, and this actually applies in medicine too.

403
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: If you ever see these things where people say, well,

404
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 1: if there's an object impaled in somebody's body, don't remove it,

405
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 1: because it's going to If you remove it, you're going

406
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 1: to promote blood flow. Okay, you're creating this kind of

407
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: defect in the But for us in forensics, we want

408
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,880
Speaker 1: to be able to appreciate an item in sight too,

409
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 1: is what it's referred to as in place rather in place,

410
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 1: so that it can be fully documented and appreciated by

411
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Speaker 1: the forensic pathologist. Keep in mind, most of the time

412
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: you're not going to have a forensic pathologist at the

413
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: scene to see the body in its pristine post mortem state,

414
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,439
Speaker 1: So you try to leave any kind of elements that

415
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,959
Speaker 1: are in or on the body in place, and that

416
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,479
Speaker 1: way it'll be more thoroughly examined at the morgue. And

417
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 1: in this particular case, they actually had to remove it

418
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: because they very well could have lost that evidence. And

419
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: of course we know that it's significant because it goes

420
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Speaker 1: to the behavior of the individual. It wasn't just simply

421
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Speaker 1: a knife wound. We're talking about multiple weapons that led

422
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Speaker 1: to mister Lobianca's death. Many of the deaths that I've

423
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 1: investigated over the course of my career, for good or bad,

424
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:26,159
Speaker 1: I have an ability of kind of placing myself in

425
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 1: the position of victims, or at least kind of trying

426
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Speaker 1: to imagine what they've gone through. With single victims, it's

427
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: it's hard, I think, or it's less nuanced when you

428
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: have family members that are killed simultaneously. There's something about

429
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: from in my case, my own humanity that begins to

430
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 1: think about the relationship that these individuals within a home

431
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: like this had La Bianca's. I'm referring to what was

432
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: going through their minds at that moment in time, because

433
00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: you have two people that were apparently have married, they'd

434
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 1: built a life together. Missus Lobianca managed to address store.

435
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:11,439
Speaker 1: Mister Lobianca was a grocery executive. They had built a

436
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: home together, not simply a house, but a home, and

437
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 1: they were still involved in their children's lives. And you think,

438
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: in those last moments before you leave this earth, what

439
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 1: was going through their mind? The pure horror, the pure terror,

440
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: because it's not just what's happening to you. You begin

441
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 1: to kind of imagine what's happening to my loved one,

442
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 1: what's happening to my beloved spouse that might be in

443
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: the other room. You're hearing screams, you're hearing commotion, and

444
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 1: maybe not thinking about the pain that's being inflicted upon you,

445
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 1: but about the pain that's being inflicted upon them.

446
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 3: Leno and Rosemary LaBianca had been told when they were

447
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 3: woken up, they were told, this is justin robbery. We're

448
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 3: just taking your money, and you're not going to be hurt.

449
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,239
Speaker 3: They were tied up with that in mind. That's what

450
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 3: Text Watson told and that's what Charles Manson told him,

451
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 3: You're not going to be hurt. All the way up

452
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,640
Speaker 3: until the point where the killing began, they were told,

453
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 3: you're not going to be hurt. Rosemary LaBianca was in

454
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 3: her bedroom with Leslie Van Holton and Patricia Crinwinkle. She

455
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 3: hears commotion going on while Tex Watson is stabbing Lena LaBianca,

456
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 3: and she asked, what's going on with Lenoleno? Are you okay?

457
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 3: And that's what caused her, Rosemary Labyanka to actually really

458
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 3: fight back hard to the point where Patricia Crinwinkle and

459
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 3: Leslie van Houghton could not control her. They screamed out

460
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 3: for text to get help. Because of Rosemary LaBianca. She

461
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 3: just I don't the heart of that woman. But I

462
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 3: have a question for you, Joe, because I'm curious after

463
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 3: the fact. Could you tell an examination the difference between

464
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 3: a wound being done by Leslie van Houghton and Patricia

465
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 3: Crinwinkle versus a wound created by Tex Watson, who is

466
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 3: obviously going to hit harder. Could you do you tell

467
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 3: a difference between that type of a knife wound that's going.

468
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: To be heavily depended day First off, on the instrument

469
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 1: that's used, how robust the instrument is that is being

470
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: utilized in order to inflict the injuries, and what structures

471
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: this instrument is going to strike. Because it's not, as

472
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: we've talked about before on body bags, it's not just

473
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: passing through the skin and through the muscle. You have

474
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: to think about any kind of bony prominences that are there,

475
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: whether it's ribs or the spine. In Miss Lobianca's case

476
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: in particular, because her spinal cord is essentially transacted, what

477
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: type of force would it take in order to inflict

478
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: these There's another important piece to this. There was a

479
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 1: need on the part of the Manson family as it

480
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: applied to vin how and I believe, for her to

481
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: get her hands dirty. So the question arises, how many

482
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: of these insults that that both of these victims, and

483
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: Rosemary in particular, because hers were as bad as it

484
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: is to talk about carving on Lobianca's body and this

485
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: carving knife that was utilized on him in its measure,

486
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 1: I think that Rosemary got the real horror show thrown

487
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: at her. Her injuries were over the top. A lot

488
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: of that has to go to you were mentioning how

489
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: much she fought. She had to be restrained. They had

490
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: to guarantee that she was not going to get back

491
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: up off of that floor. Most of her injuries are

492
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 1: posterior on her back. You begin to think about that

493
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: and the level of force that's used, and also how

494
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: many of these injury tracks where she sustained these stab wounds,

495
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 1: how many of these actually had hemorrhage in them, Because

496
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: that's the big delineation here for us between this idea

497
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: of post mortem and anti mortem injuries. You know, you

498
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: think about the anti mortem injuries, these wounds that are

499
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: inflicted on her. You think about, well, how many of

500
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: these came while she was still alive, and how many

501
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: of these happened afterwards. And they're randomized. It's not like

502
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: they're necessarily in any particular order or have penetrated specific

503
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: anatomical structures and stayed in that particular area. A lot

504
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: of the stuff that has occurred to her is randomized.

505
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: It's all over her body, so that gives you an

506
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: idea of what kind of fight had ensued initially, and

507
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: when you begin to look at it, you begin to

508
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 1: think about the horror that was inflicted upon her. What

509
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: we do know is that they have enumerated these injuries

510
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: and she had sustained I think, if I'm not mistaken,

511
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: twenty two insults on the upper portion of her back

512
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: and fourteen on the lower portion of her back. And

513
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: one of these that gives you idea as to how

514
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 1: much power was involved in this, is that she's got

515
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: transsecting injury of her neck. Place your finger at the

516
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: base of your skull. The first vertebral body that you

517
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: have there is c one that's referred to as the atlas,

518
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: and you just think about atlas holding up the world.

519
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 1: From mythology, you go to the second vertebral body, which

520
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 1: is immediately below the atlas, and then the third. There

521
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: is a wound that passes between that junction right there,

522
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: and the vertebral bodies are some of the most robust

523
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: elements in our body as far as the skeletal structure goes.

524
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: They transacted that day. That's how much power was involved

525
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: in this, which means that that knife passed through in

526
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: between those two vertebral bodies and completely transsected her cerebral

527
00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: spinal cord.

528
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 3: The one thing that I did see with Leslie van

529
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 3: Houghton describing the killing, this is her exact words. I

530
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 3: was supposed to mess her up, and I took the

531
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,719
Speaker 3: knife and I started stabbing, and I turned into an

532
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 3: animal almost. I just completely let out on that woman's back.

533
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 3: You just mentioned the wounds on her back, Leslie Van

534
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 3: Houghten talking about I completely let out on that woman's back.

535
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 3: But then she says, it's not like cutting a piece

536
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 3: of meat. It's much tougher. I had to use both

537
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 3: hands and all my pressure and all my strength behind

538
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 3: it to get it in. What actually is she describing there, Joe.

539
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 1: She's in a dominant position. And remember this is not

540
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: something she's doing by herself, Dave. There are other people,

541
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: other hands involved in this, and she is essentially in

542
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: a dominant position. This is a perfect example of what

543
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 1: we refer to as a symmetry in an attack. That

544
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: means you've got one individual that's dominant over another. And

545
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: what's really the tail of the tape is that since

546
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: these injuries are posterior on Rosemary la Bianca's body, that

547
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: means that she's faced down more than likely throughout most

548
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: of this attack, and you have access to that particular

549
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: plane of the body. The knife is being driven downward.

550
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: When say, look, if you're ever attacked by a bear,

551
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: crawl up into a kind of contract yourself up into

552
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 1: a ball. And one of the reasons is is that

553
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 1: I've often envisioned in my mind that our back is

554
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: almost like a turtle shell. We have all of these

555
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: bony prominences and structures posteriorly because you know, our ribs

556
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,240
Speaker 1: are not just on the front of our body and sides.

557
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 1: They mixed in into the back and they attached to

558
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 1: our spine, and so you've got this kind of rigidity

559
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: that comes in well, no wonder she is stating and

560
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: has admitted to having to drive this knife through these

561
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: bony structures with both hands, and essentially to give you

562
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 1: an idea as to how much force was involved. Not

563
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: only do we have this laceration of the spinal cord,

564
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 1: but in addition to that, there was so much force

565
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: used during the midst of this attack that Rosemary LaBianca

566
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 1: also sustained injuries of her lung it perforated, along also

567
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 1: her stomach, and in addition to that her spleen was lacerated.

568
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: And for what For absolutely what you asked that question,

569
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 1: I think we all do. It's just a random event

570
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: that occurred where these two people who had nothing to

571
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,760
Speaker 1: do with race wars, had nothing to do with hippie culture,

572
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with anything other than just simply living.

573
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 1: Their lives are gone and now Leslie Van Houghton is free.

574
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs