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Speaker 1: On this week's episode of Cultivating her Space.

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Speaker 2: We keep black children alive against a world in institutions

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Speaker 2: that want them annihilated. That is black feminism. When we

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Speaker 2: nurture new generations at our churches, at our organizations, at

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Speaker 2: our jobs, in our communities, in our households, that is

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Speaker 2: black feminism. Our choice to live and to live freely

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Speaker 2: and away from the white gaze, and to be fully

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Speaker 2: in our bodies and to say no, you don't get

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Speaker 2: to take all of this. This is for me. That

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Speaker 2: is Black feminism.

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Speaker 1: Today's episode is sure to provide you with motivation, inspiration,

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Speaker 1: or a fresh perspective. If you have any AHA moments

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Speaker 1: or appreciate anything from this episode, please leave us a

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Speaker 1: review to let us know we're on the right track. Also,

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Speaker 1: we release episodes every so be sure to subscribe on

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Speaker 1: iTunes and visit cultivatinghurspace dot com to access our exclusive

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Speaker 1: after show and other bonus content from the Patreon tab.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Cultivating her Space, a podcast dedicated to uplifting

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Speaker 3: women like you. We're your hosts doctor Dominique Bussard, a

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Speaker 3: college professor and psychologist.

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Speaker 4: And Terry Lomax, a techie and motivational speaker in a

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Speaker 4: world where black women are often misrepresented and misunderstood. Please

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Speaker 4: join us as we initiate authentic conversations on everything from

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Speaker 4: fibroids to fake friends, and create a safe space where

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Speaker 4: black women can just be.

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Speaker 3: Hey, lady, it is doctor dom here from the Cultivating

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Speaker 3: her Space podcast. Are you currently a resident of the

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Speaker 3: state of California in contemplating starting your therapy journey? Well?

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Speaker 3: If so, oh, please reach out to me at doctor

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Speaker 3: Dominique Brusard dot com. That's d R D O M

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Speaker 3: I N I q U E b R O U

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Speaker 3: ss ar d dot com to schedule a free fifteen

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Speaker 3: minute consultation. I look forward to hearing from you.

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Speaker 5: Okay, lady, we have a very special guest in Cultivating

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Speaker 5: her Space today. I'm just going to jump right into

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Speaker 5: the bio because we have such a juicy conversation coming

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Speaker 5: up just for you, So let's dumble on in.

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Speaker 3: Jen M.

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Speaker 5: Jackson They them is a queer, androgynist black woman, an abolitionist,

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Speaker 5: a lover of all black people, and an assistant professor

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Speaker 5: at Syracuse University in the Department of Political Science. They

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Speaker 5: are the author of the book A Black Women Taught

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Speaker 5: Us from Penguin Random House and the book Policing Blackness.

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Speaker 5: Jackson was a longtime columnist at teen Vogue, pending articles

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Speaker 5: on blackness, intersectionality, racism, politics, and culture in the United States.

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Speaker 5: They have also been published at Al Jazeera, Washington Post,

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Speaker 5: Marie Claire Ebony Magazine, The Roots, and the list goes.

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Speaker 3: On and on. Okay, we got a heavy hitter in

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Speaker 3: here today, y'all. Academically.

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Speaker 5: Academically, Jackson's research is in black politics, with a focus

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Speaker 5: on racial threat and trauma, ginger and sexuality, black politics,

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Speaker 5: and feminisms and social movements. Jackson received their doctoral degree

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Speaker 5: in political science at the University of Chicago in twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 5: They are a native of Oakland, California, and will always

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Speaker 5: represent their city.

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Speaker 3: Yay area.

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Speaker 5: That's absolutely Hey, welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Jen. We're so happy to have you here.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited about this.

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Speaker 2: This is a long time coming. I'm ready for this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, yes, okay. So our quote of the day

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Speaker 3: now we had a different quote what in a last

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Speaker 3: minute changed because we follow you on Twitter at the

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Speaker 3: time of this recording. Our quote of the day is

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Speaker 3: literally your most recent tweet. Oh are you ready? Are

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Speaker 3: you ready? Okay? Our quote of the day. One of

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Speaker 3: the most important lessons I learned from reading Tony Morrison

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Speaker 3: is that there is no level of bending or acquiescing

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Speaker 3: to whiteness that will ever overcome white suplemacy and anti blackness.

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Speaker 3: Our performance of goodness won't ever earn inclusion or respect. Now,

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Speaker 3: I'm say that one more time for the people in

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Speaker 3: the back to make sure that they heard this. One

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Speaker 3: of the most important lessons I learned from reading Tony

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Speaker 3: Morrison is that there is no level of bending or

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Speaker 3: acquiescing to whiteness that will ever overcome white supremacy and

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Speaker 3: anti blackness. Our performance of goodness won't ever earn inclusion

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Speaker 3: or respect. That's right, that's right, doctor Jin. Coming in

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Speaker 3: hard from the beginning.

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Speaker 2: I'd be thinking, y'all, it's hard up here. It's so

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Speaker 2: much happening in my head all the time. I have

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Speaker 2: to put it on the internet.

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Speaker 3: And the Internet means it. They need it, So, doctor Jin.

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Speaker 3: When when you put this tweet out there just a

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Speaker 3: few moments ago, literally the day after Tony Morrison's birthday,

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Speaker 3: what was coming up for you? Give us some contact?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've I've been sitting with Tony Morrison and thinking

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Speaker 2: about her birthday and thinking about Audie Lord, and I

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Speaker 2: found out that yesterday was also Toussaint Lovatore's birthday as well.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I'm a virgo.

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Speaker 2: We are not typically compatible with aquariuses, but this aquarium

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Speaker 2: season been hit a little bit different. I've just really

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Speaker 2: been very reflective and in thinking about Tony. I've been

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Speaker 2: thinking about her, mostly because folks don't associate her as

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Speaker 2: explicitly with black feminism, with the politics of being black

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Speaker 2: in America, but she gave us so much rich theory.

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Speaker 3: Right. She not only.

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Speaker 2: Wrote about it in her work, but also she embodied

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Speaker 2: it in the ways that she moved in the publishing industry.

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Speaker 2: She moved in a state of radical refusal with respect

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Speaker 2: to whiteness. Folks would sit directly in her face and

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Speaker 2: ask her why she wouldn't write about white folks, and

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Speaker 2: she looked at them and like, why are you asking

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Speaker 2: me this question?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: I think a lot about I tell people this all

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Speaker 2: the time about when Oprah Winfrey called Tony Morrison on

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Speaker 2: the phone and the first thing Tony Morrison said was

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Speaker 2: how did you get my phone number? She said, how

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Speaker 2: did you get my phone number? I love this about

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Speaker 2: her because for her, she said, I have privacy, I

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Speaker 2: have boundaries, and I know that you are Oprah Winfrey,

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Speaker 2: but I still don't want nobody call in my house.

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Speaker 2: I just love her radical refusal, you know. So I've

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Speaker 2: been sitting with her spirit these last two days, and

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Speaker 2: that's where the tweet came from, because I really think

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Speaker 2: that folks don't really pay that much attention to how

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Speaker 2: she modeled a refusal to engage in things that she

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Speaker 2: just wasn't going to be about.

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Speaker 4: You know, hey, lady, it's Terry here, Dom and I

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Speaker 4: want to take a moment to thank you for choosing

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Speaker 4: to listen to our podcast. We love you for real,

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Speaker 4: and we want to give you a chance to learn

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Speaker 4: more about what's important to us. So tell us what

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Speaker 4: you think about this.

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Speaker 6: Imagine a world where you have a chance to get

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Speaker 6: featured on the Cultivating her Space podcast and share your business,

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Speaker 6: brand or perspective with millions around the globe. Imagine joining

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Speaker 6: our monthly virtual video check ins where you can connect

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Speaker 6: with like minded black women like you and share your

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Speaker 6: ideas and episode suggestions with Terry and I. Now I

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Speaker 6: want you to imagine a world where you're in the

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Speaker 6: exclusive Cultivating her Space Sanctuary Slack channel, and throughout your

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Speaker 6: day and week, you are conversing with us about what's

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Speaker 6: happening in your life and sharing funny gifts and or

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Speaker 6: personal wins. How does that sound? Hopefully this is a

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Speaker 6: your Holly Lady, because we are taking things to the

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Speaker 6: next level of this year, and we're doubling down on

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Speaker 6: investing in our community.

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Speaker 3: That means you.

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Speaker 4: We want to meet you, connect with you, and create

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Speaker 4: communities of genuine women who love on black women and

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Speaker 4: push our culture and movement forward. We launched this podcast

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Speaker 4: in twenty nineteen, and to date we have not missed

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Speaker 4: a week. We've been great stewards of our platform, all

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Speaker 4: while working full time and navigating our own ups and downs.

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Speaker 4: We release fresh new content every single Friday, Life clock Work,

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Speaker 4: and we have hundreds of valuable episodes and workshops that

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Speaker 4: can really help you up level your life. So if

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Speaker 4: you love our mission or you've gotten value from us,

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Speaker 4: we invite you to give back and help us push

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Speaker 4: this community effort forward. Visit herspacepodcast dot com and click Patreon.

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Speaker 4: You can learn more about our goals and exclusive offerings

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Speaker 4: on Patreon, and we highly highly encourage you to join

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Speaker 4: the Sister Frontier so that you can get someone on

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Speaker 4: one time with us. We also have an option for

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Speaker 4: you to donate on a one time basis if that

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Speaker 4: meets your needs. Again Herspace podcast dot com and you

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Speaker 4: can click that link that says Patreon. All right, lady,

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Speaker 4: we'll hop right back into the conversation.

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Speaker 3: I love that so much.

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Speaker 5: And when you said that, Jen, it made me makes

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Speaker 5: me think about how, you know, Okay, I feel like

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Speaker 5: I'm going to golf on the tangent if I promise

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Speaker 5: I'm going to bring us back. But just how sometimes

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Speaker 5: when people speak up, when they have clear boundaries, when

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Speaker 5: they don't submit to the status quo, they're seeing as

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Speaker 5: difficult or mean. But when you say that, I'm like, no,

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Speaker 5: that's a powerful display of you having boundaries and we

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Speaker 5: should stand on business.

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Speaker 3: We should stand on this.

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Speaker 5: It's something okay, and it's something I'm still working on,

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Speaker 5: but I admire that so much from what you just

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Speaker 5: you know, that story that you just share, so thank

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Speaker 5: you so much for that. We're going to dig into

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Speaker 5: the conversation, but first we have to learn about your

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Speaker 5: origin story. So please tell us how did you become

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Speaker 5: the doctor Shane and Jackson that we see today?

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, well, I mean, you know, I always talk

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Speaker 2: about the reason why Oakland is in my bio is

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Speaker 2: because I always tell folks I will always be a

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Speaker 2: little black girl from Oakland. That's that's where I'm from.

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Speaker 2: Oakland made me. My people are from Oakland and they

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Speaker 2: are still there, you know. So it's it's in my DNA.

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Speaker 2: And I think people who are familiar with Oakland folks

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Speaker 2: know what that means. Right. We move a certain type

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Speaker 2: of ways.

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Speaker 3: It's just who we are.

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Speaker 2: And my origin story in terms of who I am

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Speaker 2: today is is you know, it's a bit. It's a

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Speaker 2: bit I think surprising. I started off as an engineering

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Speaker 2: major at the University of Southern California. Yeah, I was

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Speaker 2: as a young girl, you know, I was a very

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Speaker 2: queer child of very I'm six for four inch, just tall,

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Speaker 2: and I've been this height since I was twelve. So

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Speaker 2: I've always stood out, right, Yes, that's it. That is

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Speaker 2: the reaction I get from everybody. So I've always stood out.

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Speaker 2: And I thought I was going to go to college

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Speaker 2: for playing basketball or you know, something athletic, but I

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Speaker 2: have a heart condition, which I was diagnosed with at thirteen,

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Speaker 2: so that was not in the cards for me, you know,

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Speaker 2: And so I luckily was interested in academics. I love math,

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Speaker 2: I love faith, and so I went to USC on

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Speaker 2: mostly just academics alone, and being a poor kid, first generation,

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Speaker 2: my mom and my dad had no idea how to

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Speaker 2: navigate any of that. They didn't even know what this

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Speaker 2: place was. The USC. Most people in my family was like,

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Speaker 2: you're gonna where South Carolina? You say, LA, It's another

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Speaker 2: school in LA.

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Speaker 3: You know, it was the whole thing.

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Speaker 2: So, you know, when I got there, I was very

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Speaker 2: much alone. You know, I didn't have I couldn't go

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Speaker 2: home and ask folks about it, get their advice. They

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Speaker 2: had no idea, and I didn't have a lot of

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Speaker 2: people there, and I had encountered whiteness, you know, really

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Speaker 2: for the first time. I grew up in the blackest

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Speaker 2: part of Oakland, you know, I grew up in East

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Speaker 2: open I didn't grow up.

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Speaker 3: In the hills.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't around white soulk generally, and you know, people

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Speaker 2: were using racial slurs with me, and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: you're calling me in oh oh, we just called people didn't. I.

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Speaker 2: I never fight where I'm from, So I'm like, I

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Speaker 2: don't know what's happening here, you know. And it was

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Speaker 2: very jarry, you know. So the college experience, being in

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Speaker 2: LA and dealing with that superficial culture and encountering what

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Speaker 2: I thought was, you know, for the first time. Oh

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Speaker 2: this is misogyny, Oh this is racism. Oh these are

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Speaker 2: the things that people have told me about.

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Speaker 3: Wow. I never had to deal with this before, you know.

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Speaker 2: And it's not to say that growing up in Oakland,

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Speaker 2: I didn't encounter these things, right, they were different, Right,

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Speaker 2: the texture was different. I knew what it was like

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Speaker 2: to be followed around a store by a security guard.

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Speaker 2: I had been arrested by police. I knew police very intimately.

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Speaker 2: But I didn't understand the interpersonal violence of I'm standing

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Speaker 2: on a corner and there's just some white guy on

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Speaker 2: a skateboard who's mad that I'm black in public. Never

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Speaker 2: experienced that before. So I got through college, I went

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Speaker 2: to Disneyland in Orange County, California, and was the only

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Speaker 2: black girl with a degree and did incredible work, incredible

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Speaker 2: work and just really started changing things. But didn't understand

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Speaker 2: that I was being exploited for my labor. I didn't

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Speaker 2: understand that I wasn't being paid appropriately, that I wasn't

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Speaker 2: getting promotions when I was supposed to get them. But

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Speaker 2: I felt so miserable. I would be at work and

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Speaker 2: people would say awful racist things to me about my hairstyles. Oh, Jen,

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Speaker 2: this is my favorite of your hairs. In the middle

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Speaker 2: of a board meeting, it's twenty five people in the room,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, why is everybody looking at my hair?

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Speaker 2: You know, I had people touching me without my permission,

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Speaker 2: right because they wanted to feel the texture of my hair.

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Speaker 2: People saying, oh, you know Africans like you. They had

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Speaker 2: to work in the back in my day because of

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Speaker 2: their corn rolls and they were too strand twists. They

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Speaker 2: wasn't even coros, you know what I'm saying. Like, it

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Speaker 2: was just all types of you know, layers of aggression.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: So that's the point where I was at work and

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Speaker 2: I would be sobbing, crying, Like I'd be in the

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Speaker 2: bathroom crying. I would come to the office, I'd be

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Speaker 2: in the parking lot in my car. Before I could

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Speaker 2: even go to my car, I would just be crying.

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Speaker 2: And I called my mother, and I was like, mom My,

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Speaker 2: mom's a voracious reader. She growing up. She had books

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Speaker 2: on books, on books and books. Every time I had

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Speaker 2: said anything, she said, go check the encyclopedia. So I said, Mom,

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Speaker 2: I need answers. I'm struggling. How do I do this?

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Speaker 2: What were all those books I used to read? Because

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Speaker 2: I had read Alice Walker at the foot of my

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Speaker 2: Mother's Bed, I had read Terry McMillan at the foot

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Speaker 2: of my Mother's Bed. And I said, please remind me

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Speaker 2: of these texts, and she told me, and I wrote

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Speaker 2: them down on a sticky note, and I ran to

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Speaker 2: Borders Books and again in Orange County, the widest county

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Speaker 2: in California, the most racist county in California. And although

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Speaker 2: I saw the books I was looking for, but I

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Speaker 2: saw Melissa Harris Perry's book Sister Citizen, and it was

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Speaker 2: staring directly at me, and I was like, what is

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Speaker 2: that that?

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Speaker 3: What is this book? I have to see what's in

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Speaker 3: this book?

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Speaker 2: It had this black woman with this flag on her

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Speaker 2: head and it was ominous looking. And I opened this

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Speaker 2: book and Melissa starts writing about the sapphire, you know,

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Speaker 2: the angry black woman, the Jezebel, the hyper sex black woman,

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Speaker 2: the man need, the asexual caretaker black woman. And I'm

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Speaker 2: crying into the book at the store. I'm like, oh

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Speaker 2: my god, what.

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Speaker 3: Is happening to me?

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Speaker 2: You know? And I realized she started talking about this

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Speaker 2: thing called the crooked room. And she said that the

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Speaker 2: crooked room is this phenomena where we are we are

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Speaker 2: struggling to stand upright, and we're actually standing upright, but

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Speaker 2: the room is crooked, right. The room is all these

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Speaker 2: stereotypes and these expectations about us in the ways that

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Speaker 2: they want our bodies to fit into, these categories that

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Speaker 2: we don't need to fit into, but they force us

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Speaker 2: to for our survival. So I'm, you know, crying and

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Speaker 2: crying into the book, and I said, this is it,

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Speaker 2: this is this is what I'm experiencing. This is this

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Speaker 2: is what I feel when I'm going into work. This

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Speaker 2: is why I'm sitting in my in my bathroom and

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Speaker 2: we're crying just to get through the day because I'm

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Speaker 2: being forced into this crooked room. And I took that

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Speaker 2: book and I started reading everything else that I could

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Speaker 2: find in that book, and the next thing I read

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Speaker 2: was bell Hook's Feminism is for everybody. Then the next

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Speaker 2: thing I read was Augie Lord, The Master's Tools will

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Speaker 2: Never dismantle the Master's House. And then I read Kathy

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Speaker 2: Cohen's work. And Kathy Cohen is a political scientist at

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Speaker 2: the University of Chicago. And I learned that both Melissa

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Speaker 2: Harris Perry and Kathy Cohen were working at the University

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Speaker 2: of Chicago as political scientists. And I said, well, maybe

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Speaker 2: I should be a political scientist, so virgo. So I

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Speaker 2: was like, well, let me just check in on this,

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Speaker 2: and I essentially shifted the whole arc of my life.

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Speaker 2: I moved away from engineering. I went at night. I

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Speaker 2: was pregnant with my second child. I went to school

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Speaker 2: at night and got a master's in political science at

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Speaker 2: the local university called State Flordcina University.

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Speaker 3: And over the next.

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Speaker 2: Three to four years, I planned an exit from corporate

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Speaker 2: a permanent exit from corporate America. I went to the

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Speaker 2: University Chicago. I studied with Kathy Cohen. She was my

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Speaker 2: dissertation chair and now she's one of my closest colleagues

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Speaker 2: in comrades. She blurred the book, So that's how you

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Speaker 2: that's how you got me. I read Black Feminist literature,

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Speaker 2: and that's how I became a black feminist.

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Speaker 3: Oof. Yes, okay, okay, right, I'm like Donald, where do

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Speaker 3: we go from here? I know? Oh my gods, so

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Speaker 3: many questions. Okay, yeah, So black feminism for those who

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Speaker 3: are listening that aren't familiar with what the term means,

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Speaker 3: because my guess is, when you give us the definition,

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Speaker 3: there will be a lot of listeners who will say, oh,

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Speaker 3: that is me, but didn't but aren't putting that name

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Speaker 3: to it. What is black feminism? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: So, you know, feminism one of the one of the

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Speaker 2: most helpful definitions I've ever heard of. It is the

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Speaker 2: idea that non men are humans. That's what feminism is.

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Speaker 2: And unfortunately, because feminism was mainstreamed and co opted by

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Speaker 2: white women in these various waves. So we have a

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Speaker 2: first wave of feminism that is focused with focus on

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Speaker 2: you know, white women's orientation to their husbands and how

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Speaker 2: they belong in marriages, and they're kind of pushing back

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Speaker 2: against that. That's at the kind of turn of the

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Speaker 2: twentieth century. But then we get to the nineteen sixties

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Speaker 2: and there's another wave of white women's you know feminism

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Speaker 2: where it's in the civil rights there they're thinking about

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Speaker 2: labor justice and you know the role of white women

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Speaker 2: outside of the home, you know, voting rights and things

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Speaker 2: like that. We move into the seventies and eighties and

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Speaker 2: we see another third and some people say a fourth wave,

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Speaker 2: you know, or focused on reproductive justice and how to

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Speaker 2: name ourselves and sexual rights. And that's mainstream feminism. But

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Speaker 2: black feminism I usually locate in eighteen ninety two with

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Speaker 2: Anna Julia Cooper, who writes the book of Voice from

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Speaker 2: the South. Ida b Wells was also writing in eighteen

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Speaker 2: ninety two. She wrote Southern Noores about lynch law in

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Speaker 2: the South. And these two women together are telling us

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Speaker 2: gendered stories about blackness in the United States. And when

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Speaker 2: we take away these waves from white feminism and we

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Speaker 2: think about what black women were doing. Black women like

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Speaker 2: Ida b Wells, Mary Church, Terrelle, Zora no Hurston, and

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Speaker 2: Angelia Cooper, all the folks I include in the book,

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Speaker 2: Shirley Chisholm and in lou Hamer, Francis Beale. You know

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Speaker 2: people who are telling these stories. Shoot made me tell right.

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Speaker 2: These are people who are thinking about the orientation of

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Speaker 2: both blackness to class and gender. So black feminism is

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Speaker 2: just that right, the un understanding that folks exist at

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Speaker 2: these multiple margins simultaneously and because we do that means

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Speaker 2: we're oriented to power in unique ways.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 2: That's why we have the term intersectionality. When we look

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Speaker 2: at what the institutions that we are associated with are

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Speaker 2: supposed to do for us, right when we go to

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Speaker 2: the Social Security agency or a local hospital, for example,

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Speaker 2: and the ways that they don't even know how to

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Speaker 2: care for people's bodies when they can't see them as legible.

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Speaker 2: That's what black feminism is asking us to grapple with.

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Speaker 2: So really, it's just thinking that folks who exist that

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Speaker 2: these multiple margins, deserve access to lights, to justice, that

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Speaker 2: those who are the most vulnerable among us, especially black

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Speaker 2: trans women, deserve to live beyond the age of thirty five, right,

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Speaker 2: deserve to have a full light, or they're unbothered and

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Speaker 2: not harassed and molested by strangers on the street. That's

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Speaker 2: what black feminism is. It's not this people think it's

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Speaker 2: so scary.

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Speaker 3: It's not.

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Speaker 5: Oh, my dedness, thank you so much for breaking it

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Speaker 5: down for us, And I'd love for you. I feel

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Speaker 5: like we probably know the answers to this. ID love

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Speaker 5: for you as a brilliant you know, intellectual to break

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Speaker 5: this down for us. But when you think about why

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Speaker 5: Black women have been positioned to the back of the

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Speaker 5: feminist the feminist movement, can you talk about why? But

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Speaker 5: also the ways in which we have been positioned to

397
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Speaker 5: the back are not prioritized.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this is this is really important, I think,

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Speaker 2: and I was just teaching my young people about this today.

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Speaker 3: We were reading IRB.

401
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Speaker 2: Wells just this week, and unfortunately we know that this

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Speaker 2: if we want to go back to the era of enslavement, right,

403
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Speaker 2: we know we know that for black women who were enslaved,

404
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Speaker 2: their experiences were very unique compared to other enslaved folks

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Speaker 2: and to other free women.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 2: People always neglect to think about the role of the

408
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Speaker 2: slave mistress and the slave household. Right, slave mistress was

409
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Speaker 2: so critical to maintaining the racial order of the slave household,

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Speaker 2: and those roles didn't change when slavery ended. So when

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Speaker 2: we think in the post reconstruction era, when we moved

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Speaker 2: into the era of thinking about voting rights, So voting

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Speaker 2: rights for white women happened in nineteen twenty, but when

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Speaker 2: we think about voting rights for black folks, writ large

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Speaker 2: that was nineteen sixty five. So part of the reason

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Speaker 2: why black women are kind of pushed to the back

417
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Speaker 2: is because many white women in that moment are still

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Speaker 2: very racist. They don't see black women as their equals,

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Speaker 2: even as black women are fighting for them to be

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Speaker 2: enfranchise with the vote. The same thing goes for black

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Speaker 2: women who are fighting alongside black men. There are many

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Speaker 2: black men who still don't see these black women as equals. Instead,

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Speaker 2: they believe, you know, they always say behind every strong

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Speaker 2: black man is a strong black woman, and these black

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Speaker 2: women saying, why I got to stand behind you, right?

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Speaker 2: And what we find is that repeatedly, where these charismatic

427
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Speaker 2: black male leaders are, there are so many black women

428
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Speaker 2: who are scaffolding and quilting these movements, but who are

429
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Speaker 2: asked to step back right to wait their turn. So

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Speaker 2: what ends up happening is in nineteen seventies, nineteen seventy seven,

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy six, the comby he River Collective comes out

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Speaker 2: and says, we're not waiting no more, We're not waiting

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Speaker 2: no more, We're gonna advocate for ourselves. And people didn't

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Speaker 2: like that. The white women didn't like that, and the

435
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 2: black men didn't like that, so it always ends up

436
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,199
Speaker 2: being this kind of antagonistic relationship where folks feel like

437
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 2: if you are centering the most vulnerable, who happen to

438
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 2: be the black, trans women, black queer women. When you

439
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 2: center the most vulnerable, they feel because of scarcity models,

440
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 2: capitalism teaches us this awful way of thinking, right that

441
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,479
Speaker 2: if you advocate for these groups, there's not enough leftover

442
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 2: for everybody else. And unfortunately, when white men, white women,

443
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,959
Speaker 2: and black men advocate for just themselves, they typically leave

444
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 2: black women completely out alone.

445
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,400
Speaker 3: Oh all right, we get an education over here. And

446
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 3: as we are continuing like under getting the understanding, oftentimes

447
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 3: when we talk about feminism and black feminism, we also

448
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 3: hear the word womanism. Oh so, can you tell us

449
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:22,679
Speaker 3: the difference between womanism, feminism black feminism.

450
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 2: Well, it's so funny. I just got this question the

451
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 2: other day on my book tour. So woman is in

452
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 2: the sixties and seventies primarily because it's a reaction to

453
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 2: mainstream white feminism that has kind of overtaken what feminism is,

454
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 2: and because there's this deep antagonism from black men toward

455
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 2: black feminism. So because there becomes this kind of aggression

456
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 2: toward black feminists. Some feminists move away from the term,

457
00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 2: so we credit this term to Alice Walker and Bell

458
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 2: Hooks was also kind of in the womanist movement for

459
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 2: a bit a lot to this day, a lot of

460
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 2: kind of more religiously affiliated feminists lean toward womanism, but

461
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 2: they're to be honest with you, to this day, I

462
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 2: still I wonder when people say that they are a womanist,

463
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 2: what the difference is between womanism and black feminism except

464
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 2: in name right, For a lot of folks, the term

465
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 2: feminism because it has been so co opted that they

466
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 2: no longer want to be associated with it, which I

467
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 2: think is I think that's fair right. However, a lot

468
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:40,199
Speaker 2: of womanists are black feminists, So when they espouse the

469
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 2: same theoretical principles and engage in the same movements, as

470
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 2: long as they do on the work, I'm not really

471
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 2: concerned with what they call themselves. I am a black feminist,

472
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 2: I am in a long history and genealogy of women

473
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,439
Speaker 2: who identify as black feminists, and that's okay for me.

474
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 2: So for me, it's more about work. But mainstream white

475
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 2: feminism really is the kind of the preemptive force that

476
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 2: has pushed a lot of folks away from feminism, including

477
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 2: black feminism.

478
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 5: Lady, I have a question for you, and I'm gonna

479
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Speaker 5: need you to make sure the kids ain't around, and

480
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 5: you're gonna have to come in close for this one. Okay,

481
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Speaker 5: did you know that you can squeeze, pulse, milk, block, whip,

482
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483
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Speaker 5: your vagina. These and many other skills are part of

484
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Speaker 5: a secret practice called pompar.

485
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Speaker 3: Umpar is so incredibly powerful that Cleopatra was rumored to

486
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 3: have used it to seduce Julius Caesar, the Great Roman Emperor,

487
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496
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497
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499
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500
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501
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Speaker 5: me to follow along and it kept me hooked. But

502
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Speaker 5: one of my favorite takeaways was the emphasis on this

503
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Speaker 5: being a lifestyle that can easily be seamlessly integrated into

504
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Speaker 5: daily life. And that's literally how I've been using it.

505
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Speaker 5: I'm talking about keegels while you wash your dishes, keegels

506
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Speaker 5: while you're at your desk, right like, all that.

507
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Speaker 3: Good stuff, and I'm gonna keep it ehy on it.

508
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511
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Speaker 5: increased pleasure, high ende libido, improved confidence, tightness, and wetness,

512
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Speaker 5: it makes it worthwhile. I've been doing these techniques for

513
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Speaker 5: the past few weeks, and Lady, I already feel a

514
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Speaker 5: change in my pelvic floor.

515
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Speaker 3: We know you want to end on this program, so

516
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517
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518
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520
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Speaker 5: We okay, so I had my pinning my paper over here,

521
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 5: because we take a note. This is definitely the lesson.

522
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 5: So thank you for thank you for teaching us and

523
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 5: letting us sit under your tutor, Lige. This is very,

524
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 5: very informative, and at the same time, Jam, we want

525
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 5: to shift.

526
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 3: Up the energy a little bit.

527
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 5: So yeah, we shift it up a little bit and

528
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 5: we'll hop back into more of this conversation. But because

529
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 5: we recognize, appreciate, and celebrate the multi faceted woman, and

530
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 5: we believe that it's okay to be bougie, classy and ratchet. Okay,

531
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 5: you can still be elegant and dance to strip club

532
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 5: music if you so choose. So we want to invite

533
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 5: you to the oh you blatchet segment?

534
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 3: Do you take? Okay?

535
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 2: Change, I'm ready, Okay, Okay, you're ready, you're ready, Okay.

536
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 3: Okay, I think nervous.

537
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 5: Okay, now that we got you, okay, So what we're

538
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 5: gonna do is we're going to ask you three questions.

539
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 5: We're going to share three sentence completions. And then we're

540
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 5: going to have we have three photos pulled up of

541
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 5: you that we found online, and we want you to

542
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 5: choose a number out of one in three and when

543
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 5: we show you the photo, we want you to one

544
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 5: describe the photo for folks that are only listening to

545
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 5: the audio. And then and we want you to give

546
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 5: some more context about the photo that we would not

547
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 5: know just by looking at the photo. All right, so

548
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 5: let's just jump on. It's okay, Jim, we got to

549
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 5: We're going to ease into the segment, so I'm gonna

550
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 5: ask you softball. This first question is what's the best

551
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 5: piece of wisdom or advice you've ever received.

552
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 2: The best piece of wisdom advice I ever received was

553
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 2: from my grandmother. I was eleven years old. This is

554
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 2: in the introduction of the book.

555
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 3: She told me.

556
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 2: She said, women like we spend a lot of time alone.

557
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 2: It's going to be very lonely, she said, So you

558
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 2: find that people who love you and you love them back.

559
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 2: That's one of the best things I've ever received. It

560
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 2: was a little too early. I feel like it was

561
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 2: a little too early, but I've never forgotten it. That

562
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,719
Speaker 2: is beautiful. The wisdom from Grandma.

563
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 3: I love it. Now. I don't know how Grandma would

564
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 3: respond to hearing this next question. All right, all right,

565
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 3: so it's exact and Jit, Yes, are you gonna t

566
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 3: work or two steps? Do you mean like right now

567
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 3: or in general? I mean it could be right now,

568
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 3: but in general I'm a twerker. Yeah, I'm awe and

569
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 3: that's what we love to hear. Yeah.

570
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 5: So our last question for this segment is what's the

571
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 5: sexiest item you own?

572
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,719
Speaker 2: Oh y'all, I'm really I'm filthy.

573
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 3: You asn't the wrong. We love, We're here for it.

574
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 2: Yes, I am in an androgen, this gender flux individual

575
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 2: who is a fool Joe to shure, I'm gonna keep

576
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 2: it as pegy as possible because it can get real.

577
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 3: You know, I was real.

578
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 2: I was trying to be real fancy a few years ago.

579
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm gonna go to Fifth Avenue and

580
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 2: go shopping for my booth thang, and I got this

581
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 2: like strangle lan. It was like it's like a lot

582
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: of strength, and I never wore because I already dumped her,

583
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 2: so she never even saw. So now I got to

584
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: get a new booth so I can wear it.

585
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 3: Looks. It's cute.

586
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 2: She ain't never seen it, so we're gonna have to

587
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 2: get a new boot.

588
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 3: That's why that little right song. Okay, yes, somebody see it.

589
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 3: Someone needs to see it. Someone needs to see it. Yeah, yeah, okay,

590
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 3: that's the one all right. So now onto our sentence completion.

591
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 3: Mm hmmm. One question or topic I wish people asked

592
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 3: me about more often is.

593
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 2: I wish people asked me about like nerdy things, like

594
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 2: like maths. You know, like I know that sounds weird,

595
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 2: but people always want to pick my brain about the

596
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 2: same stuff. And I'm like, I got ranged, Like I

597
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 2: love talking about algebra, Like I wish somebody would just

598
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 2: walk up and be like, two x equals six minus seventeen.

599
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 3: I'm like, let's do it. Let's solve that right now.

600
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 3: I would love that. It would be a great experience

601
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,879
Speaker 3: for me. Wow, that is so wild.

602
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 5: You're not going to believe this, gin because one, I'm

603
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 5: not mouth always, I'm not a math person, so I

604
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 5: admire the fact that you are, and I'm like, I

605
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 5: wish I wish I had that.

606
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 3: I have to build on that.

607
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 5: But the sentence completion that we have for you, you're

608
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 5: not going to believe this. It's what I would tell

609
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 5: you about math, that algebra is.

610
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,479
Speaker 3: I'm really oh, that's just for me here, Oh, okay,

611
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 3: I have one. Can I tell y'all something? Okay? So

612
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 3: I used to teach statistics, and it's really important.

613
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 2: So and it's important that folks understand statistics so they

614
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 2: can kind of do things like linear regressions. And I

615
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 2: used to teach people how to do Oh, I'm not

616
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 2: finishing the sentence, like I'm posted.

617
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 3: Are you good? This is good? Okay, this is good.

618
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 2: So I used to teach people like introductory work in

619
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 2: like political science, so they can like build their models.

620
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 2: And people are very afraid of this one type of

621
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 2: model called a linear regression model. And it's actually quite simple, right.

622
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 2: It's you're just fitting a line to a set of behaviors.

623
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 2: And when you look at it on a page, right,

624
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 2: it's scary. It's all your dots and you got to

625
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 2: fit a line. But when you think about it in

626
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,800
Speaker 2: a theoretical sense of what you're doing, it makes a

627
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 2: lot of sense. So I would tell them, you know,

628
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 2: you're doing linear regressions all the time. You're doing predictions

629
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 2: all the time. When you look out the window in

630
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 2: the morning, and you're thinking about the weather, and then

631
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 2: you're thinking about what you're gonna wear based on what

632
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 2: you think the weather's gonna do. You're making predictions. You're

633
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 2: also using history, right, so you're taking previous predictions and

634
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 2: you're fitting a line, right, a trend line. If you

635
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 2: get sick today, your stomach hurts, what you're gonna think about,

636
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 2: You're gonna think about what you did yesterday, what you ate,

637
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 2: your behaviors. You're regressing a line, right, And so when

638
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 2: I started, yeah, see that thing, you just do that.

639
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 3: They do that every time. It's like ool, right, you're

640
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 3: doing it. You just don't realize that you're doing it. Right.

641
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 2: We always are taking in information and we're using our

642
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 2: historical knowledge and the trends that we've already seen, and

643
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,240
Speaker 2: we're fitting a line to make decisions.

644
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:05,879
Speaker 3: That's all we're doing.

645
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 5: I've had the wrong math teachers all this time. That's

646
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 5: basically what I'm learning here, Like I needed a dope

647
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 5: math teacher, Like you, come on, like, where were you

648
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,320
Speaker 5: when I was taken school?

649
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 3: Exactly right? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, So our final

650
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 3: sentence completion. What I love most about myself is.

651
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 2: You know what what I love most about myself is

652
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:41,879
Speaker 2: my deep joy and fire for life. Like I I've

653
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 2: had a tough life. I've been through a lot. I'm

654
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 2: looking at forty this year, and I you know, I

655
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 2: was selling my spouse this yesterday. I've worked really hard

656
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 2: to survive and to stay alive, you know, And because

657
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 2: of that, I just every day I wake up and

658
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 2: I am so excited, you know, I'm so excited to

659
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 2: be here, and I'm so excited for my purpose and

660
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 2: my work. Like I'm so excited to be walking in

661
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 2: my purpose. So I love that about myself. But I really,

662
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 2: I really am stepping into who I'm supposed to be,

663
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 2: and I'm enjoying.

664
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 3: It for you and we love to see it.

665
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 5: Yes, thank you, thank you. Okay, talking about or speaking

666
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 5: of seeing things now, So what's your number out of

667
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:28,879
Speaker 5: one in three?

668
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 3: Three? Three? Okay, that's good. Three. Oh, this is fun. Okay.

669
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 3: The hair, Okay, let me just let me just go

670
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 3: to the picture.

671
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 5: So Jen, if you can describe the photo first, and

672
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 5: then if you can share some context about the.

673
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 3: Photo with the people.

674
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, this is I'm I'm wearing a black top.

675
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 2: I've got my long Twists that I put unless You

676
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 2: had some juicy twists, and my Flower Crown and I'm

677
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,720
Speaker 2: holding the book Tony kabin bar as the Salt Eaters.

678
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 2: So the context for this book is that for the

679
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 2: last two to three years I've run a Black feminist

680
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 2: book club online so that folks, you know, can build

681
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 2: their repers boire. I was writing lecture notes and just

682
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 2: kind of having this virtual experience so folks could like

683
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 2: really learn And this was one of our books at

684
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 2: the very end of the series last year.

685
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,320
Speaker 3: That is so awesome. Yeah, yes, thank you for sharing

686
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:28,240
Speaker 3: with it. That is amazing.

687
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 5: Okay, and this is on Patreon. We're going to learn

688
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 5: more about this later. But I'm like, how can I

689
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 5: sign up to be sitting under the doctor Jen so

690
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 5: I can learn some stuff? Okay, So this is good.

691
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 5: Thank you, absolutely, this was fun. Thank you for participating

692
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 5: in this segment with us. We're going to jump back

693
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 5: into some of these other juicy questions. But maybe one

694
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,320
Speaker 5: thing we can dive into as we transition back is

695
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 5: can you talk a bit about like some of the

696
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 5: misconceptions with black feminism Because I know growing up, I

697
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 5: feel like, for me, my first introduction to feminism was

698
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 5: like it was a white woman thing, and then it

699
00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 5: was like it was a and then it was like

700
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 5: feminism is like an anti black male thing. So it's

701
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 5: like it was so interesting trying to wrap my head

702
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:06,919
Speaker 5: around it initially. So can you talk to us about

703
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 5: the misconceptions.

704
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think the best way to sum

705
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 2: that up is, like, you know, I start, for instance,

706
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,439
Speaker 2: my book, I start off talking about my mother.

707
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 3: My mother was, and my mother she's still here, she's

708
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 3: with us.

709
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 2: She is a singer, and my family they're all singers,

710
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 2: and they used to have this singing group called Majesty,

711
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 2: and they would sing at our house because we had

712
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 2: the piano. So every Wednesday night they would come over

713
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 2: and they would sing, you know, for hours. And I

714
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 2: talk about this in the book because these were some

715
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 2: of the first black feminist teachers I ever had.

716
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,959
Speaker 3: Right, my Auntie Barbara was. I love my Auntie Barbara.

717
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 2: She passed away during the COVID peak of twenty twenty

718
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one. And when I was a little girl,

719
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 2: I used to try and cook for my aunts when

720
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 2: they would come over for Majesty rehearsal, and I would

721
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 2: try out new things So one night I tried to

722
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,399
Speaker 2: make chicken and I had no idea what was doing,

723
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 2: but it was it was raw in the middle, and

724
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 2: she was like, yeah, my mom said this chicken is wrong.

725
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 2: And she said, you know it's okay, baby. She said,

726
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 2: next time you make that chicken, you're just poking with

727
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:13,879
Speaker 2: a fork, and you made sure that no red comes out.

728
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 2: It come out clear. You know, it's good, she said.

729
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 2: But the season is chicken. The chicken season perfect, you know.

730
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 2: And I always hear my Auntie Barbera, now right when

731
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 2: I make chicken. I always every time I poke that chicken,

732
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 2: I hear my Auntie Barbara, you know. And those same nights,

733
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 2: you know, my auntie Donna Fey always told me whenever

734
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 2: you wear lipstick, you put on some ear rings.

735
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 3: You know.

736
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 2: She would just tell me these little things. And that's

737
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 2: the same lesson I got from my grandmother. With them

738
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 2: like us will be alone, you know, so you find

739
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 2: people who love you love them back. So black feminism

740
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 2: isn't just this you know, scholarly academic intellectual endeavor that

741
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 2: happens at these universities, in these elite classrooms. Right, Black

742
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 2: feminism is actually the ways that we teach each other

743
00:40:59,160 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 2: to survive.

744
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 3: Right, that's what we're doing.

745
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 2: When we keep black children aligned against a world in

746
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 2: institutions that want them annihilated, that is black feminism.

747
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 3: Right.

748
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 2: When we nurture new generations at our churches, at our organizations,

749
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 2: at our jobs, in our communities, in our households, that

750
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 2: is black feminism. Our choice to live and to live

751
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 2: freely and away from the white gaze, and to be

752
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 2: fully in our bodies and to say no, you don't

753
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 2: get to take all of this.

754
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 3: This is for me.

755
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,320
Speaker 2: That is black feminism. So I really want folks to

756
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 2: stop thinking that it's about anybody else. It couldn't possibly

757
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 2: be about black men because it's not for them.

758
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 3: It's for us.

759
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 2: It couldn't possibly be about white women because this whole book,

760
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 2: they're not even in there, Like I don't even white

761
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,280
Speaker 2: women have been walking out of my book towards talks,

762
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 2: and I'm like, by caring it was a anyway, Right, Like,

763
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 2: it's for us. That's what black feminism is. It's a

764
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 2: way for us to understand.

765
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:07,879
Speaker 3: That we belong here.

766
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 2: We deserve to live, to read, and we deserve to

767
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 2: do that without having to carry all this ailment and

768
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 2: sickness in our body because other people want to extract

769
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,720
Speaker 2: our energy, right, we deserve to be full.

770
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 3: Ooh ooh okay, lady, if you are not watching this interview,

771
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:37,800
Speaker 3: you need to because oh my gosh. Oh okay. So,

772
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 3: doctor Jen, you have referenced your book multiple times in

773
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 3: this interview, so let's dig it. Okay. The title Yes,

774
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 3: Black Women taught us like and I love what you

775
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 3: pointed out that the book is for us and it's

776
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 3: all lack women. Tell us more about the book and

777
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 3: your process and your why in creating this book.

778
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's it's linked to my origin story, right.

779
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 2: You know.

780
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 3: When I was looking for.

781
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 2: You know something, you know, something to help me understand

782
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 2: what I was experiencing in the world. I didn't find

783
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 2: it on my college campus. There was no Black womeni'st

784
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 2: political thought class taught at USC in two thousand and

785
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 2: to two thousand and six. There was no professor to

786
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:42,320
Speaker 2: teach it. I searched, I searched, and I could not

787
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:48,959
Speaker 2: find anything. And this book comes out of that desperation,

788
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:54,280
Speaker 2: right of being that young person and searching for reflections

789
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 2: of myself and not being able to find them.

790
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 3: You know, I was that a few years later, there

791
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 3: wasn't really a few. It was more like a decade later. Right,

792
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 3: we saw the.

793
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 2: Huge kind of growth of social media. So all these

794
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 2: black feminists were now online. We had Gradient Lair, we

795
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 2: had crump finis Collective, we had racial Isious, We had

796
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,919
Speaker 2: all these folks writing now for blogs and you could

797
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 2: just go read these things for free.

798
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 3: Right.

799
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 2: But when I was growing up, that didn't exist, and

800
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 2: a lot of these black women's works were out of

801
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 2: print when I was looking for them. You know, So

802
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: black women taught us is a love a set of

803
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 2: love letters really to the black women who I discovered

804
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 2: on my black feminist journey.

805
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 3: Right.

806
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 2: That's why I start with my mother and my aunts

807
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 2: and my grandmother's Right. I walked through, you know, my

808
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 2: black feminist journey from childhood all the way through to

809
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 2: today to explain that black women are always teaching us,

810
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 2: and they are often teaching us at great risk to themselves.

811
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 3: Right.

812
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 2: I talk about Harriet Jacobs. I talk about Ida B. Wells,

813
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 2: who we know was run out of her city because

814
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 2: she told the truth about lynching. I talk about Zora Nohurston,

815
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 2: who died of malnutrition in nineteen sixty and if not

816
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:27,879
Speaker 2: for Alice Walker's efforts, we would have not had even

817
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 2: had access to her work. Talk about Ella Baker, Fanny

818
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 2: lou Hamer. Fanny lou Hamer was only sixty years old

819
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 2: when she died, and when she died, they said she

820
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 2: was a housekeeper. And there's nothing wrong with being a housekeeper.

821
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: She just wasn't she was Fendi lou Hamer. You know,

822
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 2: I talk about Shirley Chisholm's life. I talk about Audre Lord,

823
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 2: and I spent a lot of time talking about Tony

824
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 2: Morrison as a horror writer because she wrote about black trauma.

825
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 2: I talk about the Combahi River Collective, Angela Davis, and

826
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 2: I close the book discussing Belle Hooks.

827
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 3: So these are the.

828
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 2: Folks on my journey, right, and the book is meant

829
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 2: to take you on that journey. But these are not

830
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,399
Speaker 2: the only black women in the book, right. So when

831
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,399
Speaker 2: I discussed the erasure of black women's labor, I also

832
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:24,839
Speaker 2: mentioned Marsha P. Johnson, who was killed and we still

833
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 2: don't know the conditions of her death. Meanwhile, she was

834
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 2: critical to the Stonewall Rebellion, and white men were largely

835
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 2: giving credit for that and for pride as we know

836
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 2: it today, you know what I'm saying. So the whole

837
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 2: book is really trying to push us to understand that

838
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 2: these black women have been doing this labor for us.

839
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 2: And it may be the black woman who keeps giving

840
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,919
Speaker 2: us candy at church, right, it may be our mom,

841
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 2: it may be the Fannie Lou Hamer's and the Bell

842
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 2: Hooks is right, but they are always pouring into us.

843
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 2: They're always teaching us, and we just need to listen

844
00:46:58,640 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 2: and we need to do the work.

845
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 5: Just thank you again, Jim for just the work that

846
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 5: you do, but also who you represent. And I think

847
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 5: about legacy and how you know, when those stories stop

848
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 5: being told, the next generation won't be able to they

849
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 5: won't know, you know. I think about all of our legacies.

850
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 5: Is we're here on this, you know, on this podcast,

851
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 5: And I think about I mean twenty thirty forty years

852
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 5: from now, like hopefully someone's there to tell our stories

853
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 5: so people can know like this person existed. So I

854
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 5: just think about how powerful it must be, how powerful

855
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 5: it is for you to be able to compile those

856
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 5: stories and reintroduce people if they haven't been introduced to them.

857
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:36,879
Speaker 5: So thank you for that and I wanted to also

858
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 5: ask you about energy. You kind of spoke about our

859
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 5: energy and our gifts and protecting them. So I'd love

860
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 5: to know from your perspective, from your work and your

861
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:50,800
Speaker 5: life experience, in what ways do people, I want to

862
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 5: say other non black people, but it could be anyone,

863
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:56,240
Speaker 5: how do they try to siphon our energy?

864
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 3: And what are the ways in which you protect your energy?

865
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 3: Now who you are today, China. This is why I'm so.

866
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 2: Grateful I'm a black feminist because I think, you know,

867
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:07,879
Speaker 2: they taught me. You know, I talked to earlier about

868
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:13,800
Speaker 2: Tony Morrison's radical refusal, but Audrew Lord also is a

869
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 2: model for this. You know. In the book, I talk

870
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 2: about her focus on self care as a form of

871
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:24,800
Speaker 2: comradeship right. And part of the reason why this is

872
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 2: important in the book is because people associated Audre Lord

873
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 2: with self care because they pull out one quote of

874
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 2: hers where she talks about self care being a part

875
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 2: of a revolution. But what they don't focus on is

876
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 2: the part before it, where she's discussing her relationship to

877
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:45,919
Speaker 2: her cancer diagnoses. Folks don't realize that much of Audre

878
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 2: Lord's self care work stems from her facing her own

879
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 2: mortality and her kind of thinking about end of life,

880
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 2: and the fact that she had getten so much to

881
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:00,840
Speaker 2: these movements and to these folks who were not pouring

882
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 2: back into her.

883
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 3: Right. I got a glimpse of this the other day.

884
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 2: I was watching an interview with Alice Walker, and Alice

885
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:11,280
Speaker 2: Walker has largely removed herself from the limelight. Now. Granted,

886
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 2: some of that is because Alice Walker got some shitty

887
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,839
Speaker 2: politics and some stuff. Right, we know that Alice Walker

888
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 2: has given us some beautiful things, but she also needs

889
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 2: to shut the hell up on some other things.

890
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 3: That's all that's true, right, yep. Yes.

891
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 2: But also what she said, which I thought was important,

892
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 2: was that she had to remove herself because she had

893
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 2: a stroke, and that her stroke was related to the

894
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 2: labor she was doing advocating for these communities and it

895
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 2: was just draining her. And it was so resonant for

896
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 2: me from all the stories I had written in this book,

897
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 2: because these women were dying so young, so young, of

898
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 2: largely preventable illments, things that they should have been able

899
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,160
Speaker 2: to be treated for if they had community, if they

900
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 2: had people who were looking after them, if they had scaffolding.

901
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 2: So to answer your question, I learned this from these women,

902
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:13,840
Speaker 2: from reading black feminism, from watching my mother, from watching

903
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 2: my grandmother, and sadly watching some of these women pass away.

904
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 2: I watched a lot of my aunts pass away during

905
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 2: the COVID nineteen crisis. I watched a lot of them

906
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 2: struggle for many, many years. And what I've taken from

907
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 2: that is that if we don't.

908
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 3: Commit to.

909
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 2: Establishing and fiercely defending our boundaries, if we don't put

910
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 2: our feet down and send forthright against people, even people

911
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 2: who look like us, even people who say they love us,

912
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 2: who asked us to break into bend and to be

913
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:01,800
Speaker 2: flexible and just to get a little bit more, we

914
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 2: will find ourselves giving and giving and giving and shrinking

915
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 2: and shrinking and shrinking, and no longer being who we are,

916
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 2: and no longer having anything left for ourselves. And I'm

917
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 2: saying that from experience. I'm saying that because I've done it,

918
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 2: and I have to work actively not to do it.

919
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:26,719
Speaker 2: Because the world expects us to be superhuman. The world

920
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 2: thinks that we are our resources to be tapped that

921
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:38,319
Speaker 2: have no limitation whatsoever. And it's when we fall into

922
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 2: that cycle with it right that we see ourselves to

923
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 2: we see ourselves weathering. This is what our Leandronomis talks

924
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,839
Speaker 2: about with the weathering hypothesis. Right, people always say black women, oh,

925
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 2: black don't crack because we look good. That's because we're

926
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:53,280
Speaker 2: aging from the inside out, not from.

927
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 3: The outside in. You see what I'm saying. So for me, I.

928
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 2: Am in a right set a refusal. I'm not coming hey, y'all,

929
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 2: no thanks, And I'll tell people from the beginning.

930
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 3: I don't have fomo. I'm not interested. Y'all have fun.

931
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 3: You can go ahead and glow. I don't give a shit.

932
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 2: I love my couch, I got snacks, I got blankets,

933
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 2: I got people here who like me. All the food

934
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 2: in my house is good. I'm not coming outside. There's

935
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:24,919
Speaker 2: things I'm not finna do. I don't care about time

936
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 2: no more. Brittany Cooper said Times white supremacist. I believe

937
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 2: her like it's some things I'm not finna do. And

938
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 2: it's not to be rude, it's not to be nasty.

939
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 2: It's so that I can survive. It is an act

940
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 2: of self preservation and I'm not allowing anybody else to

941
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 2: kill me.

942
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:56,320
Speaker 3: Oh oh ooh, Zora said, like drop ooh, Zora said it.

943
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:58,359
Speaker 2: She said, if you are solid about your pain, they

944
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 2: will kill you and they will say you enjoyed it.

945
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 3: No, ma'am, No, ma'am. And we're not. We're not over

946
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 3: here for that. We're not signing up for that. Mm hmm.

947
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:15,360
Speaker 3: All right, So if you are in a radical state

948
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 3: of refusal, what does that look like? Because I know

949
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 3: that we're gonna have some listeners that are going to

950
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 3: listen to this and they're gonna say, well, my life

951
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 3: is not set up like that. I don't have that

952
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 3: privilege to engage in radical refusal. Mm hmm. What we

953
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 3: all do to some extent, there are areas in our

954
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 3: lives where we can mm hmm break it down for

955
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 3: the people, that's right. What does that look like?

956
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,800
Speaker 2: So for me, you know, I will admit, yes, I

957
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 2: am in a privileged position. Now, I'm a professor at

958
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 2: an elite university. I have a little bit of power.

959
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 2: There are things I can say no to, right. But

960
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 2: what I also will posit here is that even when

961
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 2: I was a graduate student who had to eatron, okay,

962
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 2: there was still some boundaries that I upheld because I

963
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 2: was willing to take the consequences, which is if people

964
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 2: have a problem with me if they don't want to

965
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 2: hang out with me because I took care of myself,

966
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:23,320
Speaker 2: because I don't want to be physically sick and ailed,

967
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,840
Speaker 2: because they need me to show up and perform niceness

968
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 2: and networking or whatever it might be.

969
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 3: I am okay with that.

970
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 6: Right.

971
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 2: If you move in your integrity, a radical state of

972
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:38,800
Speaker 2: refusal doesn't mean put yourself at economic risk, take yourself

973
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 2: out of situations that are good for you. It means

974
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:46,919
Speaker 2: limit your access to people or things that are harmful,

975
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:51,480
Speaker 2: that are extractive, that are not reciprocal.

976
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:52,319
Speaker 4: Right.

977
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,840
Speaker 2: And the problem is is that we're so nervous about

978
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:59,360
Speaker 2: people doing something to hurt us that we're not thinking

979
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 2: that do the thing is going to hurt us, you

980
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:06,440
Speaker 2: see what I'm saying. So for me, even when I

981
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 2: was a graduate student, even before I was a graduate student,

982
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:12,400
Speaker 2: I really started to interrogate the things I was doing

983
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 2: out of obligation when I felt like I have to

984
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 2: do that.

985
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 3: If I don't do that, what's going to happen? Right?

986
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 2: Because unfortunately for black women, we are socialized that almost

987
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 2: everything for everyone else is an obligation. We got to

988
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 2: go out and act a certain way for the people

989
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 2: and the men in our lives. Our children require that

990
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:37,320
Speaker 2: we show up in certain ways. Otherwise people going to

991
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 2: say that we're a bad parent. Right, the standards on

992
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:43,879
Speaker 2: us are different than they are for everybody else. That's

993
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 2: the refusal I'm talking about. I stopped caring about the

994
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:51,320
Speaker 2: naming and the ways that people were thinking about what

995
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 2: I was doing. I don't care what they think because

996
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:57,440
Speaker 2: I know who I am, I know how my family operates,

997
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,839
Speaker 2: I know who my children are. Eventually, this is why

998
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 2: I always talk people. Eventually, people lead you to hell

999
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:08,840
Speaker 2: alone because it's a re learning process. Refusal is not

1000
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 2: a process of constant agitation. Right, you are teaching people

1001
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:20,279
Speaker 2: how to treat you. You have to model the behavior

1002
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:24,320
Speaker 2: so people know how to treat you. That's what refusal is.

1003
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 5: These are the episodes that make me so grateful for

1004
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:31,719
Speaker 5: this platform that we have and being able to have

1005
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:34,880
Speaker 5: an opportunity to speak to people like you, because if

1006
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:36,839
Speaker 5: that wasn't a word. I cannot wait to re listen

1007
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 5: to this episode, and I just want to add one

1008
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 5: of them. I'm so glad you talked about energy and

1009
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:44,440
Speaker 5: you talked about the radical state of refusal, because they're

1010
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 5: once upon a time more recently than our stay. I

1011
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:50,840
Speaker 5: would would be flatter when people would say like, oh,

1012
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 5: you have such good energy. Oh I want to hang

1013
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:54,239
Speaker 5: around you. And it's like, oh cool people like me

1014
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:56,279
Speaker 5: and now, and then I was like, wait, they don't.

1015
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 5: Just because they realize the light don't mean they get

1016
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:01,840
Speaker 5: access to it. So right, yes, I appreciate you breaking

1017
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 5: that down because that's so important, Like, yeah, you do

1018
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 5: have a good energy. Yeah I do have good energy.

1019
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:07,879
Speaker 5: That don't mean that you you know what I mean?

1020
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:12,399
Speaker 5: So thank you again. My question for you is how

1021
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 5: do you act or take a space when in white spaces?

1022
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:20,160
Speaker 5: I'm thinking about we have a lot of listeners who

1023
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:23,200
Speaker 5: are in predominantly white spaces in this podcast. Is their space,

1024
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 5: like this is literally their space where they come to

1025
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 5: talk to their you know, their homegirls, their sister friends,

1026
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:30,360
Speaker 5: their aunties, like this is it. And so when you

1027
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 5: still have to navigate in that in that world and

1028
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 5: play the political games and all that, like what advice

1029
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 5: do you have or how do you show up in

1030
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:38,120
Speaker 5: those spaces?

1031
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:41,480
Speaker 3: I love that question. I'm gonna be honest with you.

1032
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 2: I've I've only ever professionally been in predominantly white spaces

1033
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 2: I've only gone to predominantly white colleges. I've only worked

1034
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 2: at predominantly white institutions.

1035
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 3: I show up just like this.

1036
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 2: I look the same in every space, I speak the

1037
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 2: same in every space. I am teaching those white folks

1038
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 2: how to treat me too, And I've done it since

1039
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 2: I was a young person, right. Or if they can't

1040
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 2: figure it out, I build a way out. Right. This

1041
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:17,800
Speaker 2: is the Disneyland story, right, those folks were committed to

1042
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,920
Speaker 2: mistreating me and misunderstanding me. There are some spaces that

1043
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 2: no matter what you do, it's the Crookeet room, and

1044
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 2: you're gonna be sitting there. Either you gonna bend yourself

1045
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 2: up or you're gonna stand upright right. And for me,

1046
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:36,440
Speaker 2: I have chosen to stand upright now.

1047
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:36,640
Speaker 3: This.

1048
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 2: I will always tell people, you take a lot of

1049
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 2: a risk, right. It's dangerous, right because people don't like that.

1050
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 3: So you have to be strategic.

1051
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:49,800
Speaker 2: If you're in a space where you can't quite stand

1052
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:53,320
Speaker 2: upright yet, you figure out a way out, or you

1053
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:56,480
Speaker 2: find your people in that space, you find community. I

1054
00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 2: know we always talk about pronominally that space like the're homogenous,

1055
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 2: but they're not. I have some real good white male

1056
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 2: friends who'll be having my back in academia. They'll read

1057
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:06,880
Speaker 2: my stuff, they'll help me get published. You find your

1058
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:11,919
Speaker 2: people wherever they are, because this whole you know, kin folk,

1059
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 2: skinfolk thing all all skin folk and kim folk. Okay,

1060
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 2: So there will be some white folk in those spaces

1061
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 2: who actually will be allies and who will have your back.

1062
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:25,440
Speaker 3: Right, So there's always a.

1063
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 2: Way to right yourself in any space. I firmly believe

1064
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 2: that we can take up space anywhere. And if you

1065
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 2: get to a point where there's no space, you should

1066
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 2: not be there because that place is killing you. And

1067
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 2: I'm not going to give someone advice on how to

1068
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:45,680
Speaker 2: stay in the space that is causing their slow death.

1069
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:49,439
Speaker 2: Let me pass around the offer and plate everyone. Let's

1070
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:50,200
Speaker 2: just pass around.

1071
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:57,440
Speaker 5: That is Oh my gosh, okay, Dom, I know we're

1072
00:59:57,480 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 5: almost the time. I just have one last question. That's okay.

1073
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:04,560
Speaker 3: So when you made a powerful.

1074
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:07,440
Speaker 5: Statement about Alice Walker earlier that we totally understood, and

1075
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 5: I just want to know, how do you take just

1076
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:13,320
Speaker 5: and this is in all of our research us as humans,

1077
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:16,520
Speaker 5: how do we take the message and appreciate the gift

1078
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 5: while grappling with the shadow side of the hero or

1079
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:21,240
Speaker 5: the messenger, Like.

1080
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 3: How do we do that? Yeah?

1081
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:26,800
Speaker 2: You know, I think I use the word grace a lot,

1082
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 2: but I really want to offer some context and some

1083
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 2: texture for what that means. Right, you know, when we

1084
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 2: think about our elders like Alice Walker and even like

1085
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:38,920
Speaker 2: a Cornell West, you know, folks who are not always

1086
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 2: on the right side. You know, what we have to

1087
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:49,600
Speaker 2: understand is that generation of black struggle has been the

1088
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 2: radical generation. I tell my students is all the time,

1089
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 2: you know, w e me the boys. When he was

1090
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 2: writing about the Talented tenth that was radical and we

1091
01:00:57,120 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 2: read it now we're like, oh my god, that's right,

1092
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 2: you know. But when he wrote it, that was a

1093
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:08,600
Speaker 2: major political statement, you know, And I want folks to

1094
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:13,560
Speaker 2: understand that because it's a blessing, right actually, that we

1095
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:19,800
Speaker 2: have these folks here to be interlocutors, to be thought partners.

1096
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:25,600
Speaker 2: And it's unfortunate for us when they begin to move

1097
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 2: against the right side of history, right when they begin

1098
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:34,520
Speaker 2: to advocate for stances that's like really problematic, but it

1099
01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 2: does not negate the fact that without them and without

1100
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:41,439
Speaker 2: their work, we would not be here.

1101
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:42,040
Speaker 3: Right.

1102
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 2: So for me, just like any other human being, I

1103
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:49,200
Speaker 2: get to be human, and so do they. Right, I'm

1104
01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 2: not always going to get everything right. That's part of

1105
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:54,000
Speaker 2: what I write in the book too. That's what accountability

1106
01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:54,440
Speaker 2: is about.

1107
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:55,160
Speaker 3: Right, we love.

1108
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:58,560
Speaker 2: It's come from Jenet mak years ago when Belle Hooks

1109
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:03,400
Speaker 2: made comments about Beyonce, Janet Mock talked about loving critically. Right,

1110
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 2: love is nothing if it's not accountable. Love has to

1111
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:12,320
Speaker 2: be accountable. So someone like Alice Walker, we can love her,

1112
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 2: but she's got to be accountable to us. Right, we

1113
01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:19,120
Speaker 2: are her community. We have to hold her accountable.

1114
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:20,560
Speaker 3: So that's how we do it.

1115
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 2: We offer them grace, but we also say, hey, that's

1116
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:28,960
Speaker 2: not it right, and that's within our responsibility. And also

1117
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:33,080
Speaker 2: it's a gift for us to be able to do that. Right,

1118
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 2: that's the point of community and not disposing of people,

1119
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:42,480
Speaker 2: not throwing them out right, but believing that they can

1120
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:45,920
Speaker 2: be better because we believe that they are worth it. Right,

1121
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:49,600
Speaker 2: if we believe that black people are valuable, that shouldn't

1122
01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:50,440
Speaker 2: be a hard thing to do.

1123
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:56,080
Speaker 3: Oh, I love that. Okay, if that's such a beautiful

1124
01:02:56,160 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 3: way for us to wrap up the interview. And now

1125
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:04,200
Speaker 3: I know that all of our listeners are going to.

1126
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 2: Want to know.

1127
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:08,880
Speaker 3: One, where can they get your book? And yes, two

1128
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:12,960
Speaker 3: how can they connect with you? And wait what there

1129
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:15,560
Speaker 3: is a whole feminist book club that we could be

1130
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:17,960
Speaker 3: a part of. Yeah, a lot of people know.

1131
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:22,120
Speaker 2: Okay, so the book. You can get the book actually

1132
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:24,920
Speaker 2: anywhere books are sold. But what I'm asking folks to

1133
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:29,640
Speaker 2: do is to support local black owned, queer owned indie bookstores.

1134
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:32,120
Speaker 2: And if you don't have one in your neighborhood, you

1135
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:35,439
Speaker 2: can go on to bookshop dot org and support one there.

1136
01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:38,840
Speaker 2: I've signed some books at stores like the Barnes and

1137
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:42,120
Speaker 2: Noble on Fifth Avenue. There's a few at the Sant

1138
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 2: Kopha bookstore in DC at Loyalty Books, and there may

1139
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:47,560
Speaker 2: be a few more coming.

1140
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 3: Up in some stops coming up.

1141
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:51,280
Speaker 2: So the way you find out about new events and

1142
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:53,840
Speaker 2: how to get the books from me directly or see me,

1143
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:58,560
Speaker 2: you would go to Jenmjackson dot com. And Jen has

1144
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 2: two ends and forward slash books. That is the page

1145
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:06,000
Speaker 2: that has all the information the order link. I also

1146
01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:08,520
Speaker 2: have a syllabus for the book, so if you would

1147
01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:11,840
Speaker 2: like to study along with the book and by chapter,

1148
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:15,360
Speaker 2: read additional readings and thought questions that go along with it.

1149
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:18,040
Speaker 2: You can download the Black Women Taught Us so this there.

1150
01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:21,000
Speaker 2: You can also check out all the tour dates. I'm

1151
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:25,800
Speaker 2: coming to Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Detroit, and I think I'm

1152
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 2: going back to New York City in Chicago. So there's

1153
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:31,240
Speaker 2: a lot of places finding anywhere on the internet at

1154
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:36,320
Speaker 2: Jen M Jackson, PhD, I'm all over the place, Twitter, Facebook, brands,

1155
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:37,120
Speaker 2: it's everywhere.

1156
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:41,960
Speaker 5: Thank you so much. This was incredible, Jim. We appreciate

1157
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:43,640
Speaker 5: you and wish you so much success and we would

1158
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:44,160
Speaker 5: love to keep in.

1159
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:48,080
Speaker 3: Touch with you. Absolutely. I'll come back an time. Okay,

1160
01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:54,720
Speaker 3: thanks for joining us today. Please note that our show

1161
01:04:54,840 --> 01:05:00,760
Speaker 3: may contain conversations about self help, advice, self empower and

1162
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 3: mental health, but is by no means meant to be

1163
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:08,320
Speaker 3: a substitute for an ongoing formal relationship with a trained

1164
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 3: mental health provider. If you are someone you know is

1165
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:15,760
Speaker 3: in need of mental health care, please visit a Therapy

1166
01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:21,720
Speaker 3: for Black Girls directory Psychology today or contact your insurance provider.

1167
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 5: If you liked what you heard and want to keep

1168
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:28,280
Speaker 5: the conversation going, visit our website at heirspacepodcast dot com

1169
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:31,160
Speaker 5: and be sure to click the Patreon tab to get

1170
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:35,520
Speaker 5: access to video content, bonuses, and our weekly after show

1171
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:40,920
Speaker 5: and before we meet again, Repeat after me. My thoughts

1172
01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:46,080
Speaker 5: create my reality. Today, I choose thoughts that empower and

1173
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:46,840
Speaker 5: uplift me