Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Civic Cipher. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: ramses Jah.
Speaker 2: They call me q Ward, but typically because they just
Speaker 2: don't feel like pronouncing Quentin.
Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, and we are back of ben you one
Speaker 1: more gain true to form to talk about the goings
Speaker 1: on in Black America. But today is a special episode
Speaker 1: because we have a special guest. He goes by the
Speaker 1: name of the honorable. Rarely we get to say that
Speaker 1: we have like the top dog in here, the Honorable
Speaker 1: Cody Williams. Now, now I want you to talk about yourself,
Speaker 1: and we're gonna spend a lot of time talking about you,
Speaker 1: but just so you know who we have in the
Speaker 1: studio today. He's been a city council member. He started
Speaker 1: his first election one his first election in nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: three and has held an elected position ever since. At present,
Speaker 1: he is a court justice and for many years in
Speaker 1: the state of Arizona, he was the only black court justice,
Speaker 1: and now there are more, which I think is a
Speaker 1: testament to the fact that the world is changing for
Speaker 1: the better for black and brown folks. You know, I
Speaker 1: tend to be more optimistic than some folks, but you
Speaker 1: know I'm not going to knock you c but until
Speaker 1: it was one of six City Council and Justice of
Speaker 1: the Peace elections, and so we're very honored to have
Speaker 1: you here today, So thank you for joining us. Yes, sir,
Speaker 1: but before we get to our conversations with you, I
Speaker 1: want to talk about Simone Biles.
Speaker 3: So, Q, is it okay if we get to some
Speaker 3: ebony excellence? Absolutely all right. All I do is win,
Speaker 3: no matter what.
Speaker 1: So I'm admittedly not a person who follows sports or
Speaker 1: anything like that. I'm a music I always have been.
Speaker 1: But you can't help but miss Simone Biles. You know,
Speaker 1: either you miss her because she's not performing or you know,
Speaker 1: she's not making the headlines that you would like, but
Speaker 1: she's making some other headlines. And over the past week,
Speaker 1: i'd say a lot of people have been very critical
Speaker 1: of her for not performing in the Olympics or you know,
Speaker 1: sitting out certain events. Q. You could help me out
Speaker 1: a lot better with what these things are called or whatever.
Speaker 1: But as it turns out, she was prioritizing her mental health.
Speaker 3: You know, we found that out.
Speaker 1: And she had a condition called the twisties, which I
Speaker 1: believe is when you are disoriented when you're flipping in
Speaker 1: the air. She's a gymnast for those who don't know,
Speaker 1: and she does the like acrobatic maneuvers and that's how
Speaker 1: she places and wins all these gold medals. In addition
Speaker 1: to that, her aunt passed away. I want to say
Speaker 1: it was last week. And my opinion is that you know,
Speaker 1: black bodies are very often commodified, and.
Speaker 3: You know it, it's up to us to draw the line.
Speaker 1: It's up to us to prioritize ourselves because historically we've
Speaker 1: seen that folks, you know, don't often prioritize our health,
Speaker 1: our mental well being and so forth.
Speaker 3: And she took a stand.
Speaker 1: She did that and just like with Naomi, I want
Speaker 1: to say, Naomi Osaka, yes, correct it.
Speaker 3: Okay, very good.
Speaker 1: You know, she she stood up and we salute her
Speaker 1: and we commend her, and so we want to give
Speaker 1: her a shout out for our Ebony Excellence segment of
Speaker 1: the week.
Speaker 3: So shout out to Simon Biles.
Speaker 2: Congratulations to her on winning the bronze medal in the
Speaker 2: balance beam. You know, she took some time off to
Speaker 2: look after her own mental health, but she did decide
Speaker 2: after all to compete and she did metal and.
Speaker 1: I think she said that that was her the most
Speaker 1: special one. It was like a very special medal overall,
Speaker 1: even though it wasn't cold.
Speaker 4: She actually said that it was the one that she
Speaker 4: did for herself. Oh, because she's un understood that when
Speaker 4: you are the best in what you do, there's a
Speaker 4: certain kind of pressure that everyone else who does it
Speaker 4: just doesn't have. And that kind of pressure can get
Speaker 4: to you if you don't do this for yourself, If
Speaker 4: your only thought is to do it because I gotta
Speaker 4: do it, because I'm the only one that can do it,
Speaker 4: i gotta do it for the country, family, everybody else.
Speaker 4: At some point, that's a lot of pressure and it
Speaker 4: may not even be fun anymore. But to be able
Speaker 4: to come back and say I'm doing this one for
Speaker 4: me and no matter what happens, I'm happy about it,
Speaker 4: that's the great message. That is a tremendous message to
Speaker 4: anyone else who may be going through this. So don't
Speaker 4: let the pressures of others down your program.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. I love that. I love that.
Speaker 1: So once again, some owe Biles Ebony excellence in its
Speaker 1: purest form, and we love to see it around here.
Speaker 3: And the voice that you do heard.
Speaker 1: Again was the Honorable Judge Cody Williams, and the reason
Speaker 1: that you're here today is because.
Speaker 3: You're a great man.
Speaker 1: You work in the criminal justice system, and you know,
Speaker 1: historically on the show, you know, as I mentioned before,
Speaker 1: we were before we were you know, on air broadcasting
Speaker 1: that you know, Q and I have historically been very
Speaker 1: critical of policing systems and the criminal justice system and
Speaker 1: its entirety. We feel, and it's generally understood that black
Speaker 1: people are disproportionately affected negatively by the criminal justice system.
Speaker 1: A lot of outcomes tend to follow wealth and culpability
Speaker 1: sometimes does not really enter into the scenarios often as
Speaker 1: as frequently as we'd like, we'd that to be.
Speaker 3: One hundred percent of the time.
Speaker 1: When it does fall short, typically black and brown folks
Speaker 1: are at the.
Speaker 3: Short get the short end of that stick.
Speaker 1: And you're a person who stepped up in the early
Speaker 1: nineties and really started a political career and then now
Speaker 1: as a judge, have some degree of influence over those
Speaker 1: those outcomes. One of my first questions that I wanted
Speaker 1: to ask was what things have you seen.
Speaker 3: Change in your.
Speaker 1: Time as an elected official for the better for black
Speaker 1: and brown folks, Because again, we've been critical, but we'd
Speaker 1: love to discuss some favorable things. I'm not talking about
Speaker 1: necessarily Obama, you know, those sorts of things, but things
Speaker 1: that you know are measurable or otherwise feel like it's
Speaker 1: a better reality.
Speaker 4: Okay, Well, first of all, I have to caveat and
Speaker 4: just remind you that yesterday I was black, Today I'm black,
Speaker 4: and more than likely tomorrow I'll be black. And so
Speaker 4: I've always appreciated and approached the things that I do
Speaker 4: as a black man, as an African American man, and
Speaker 4: so my efforts have always been collective. I came from
Speaker 4: a generation, if you will, that marched together, that sacrifice
Speaker 4: their individual things to create collective outcomes. And when you
Speaker 4: think about the fact that the population in the state
Speaker 4: of Arizona, City of Phoenix, Americopa County of African Americans
Speaker 4: is at three to five percent, to be able to
Speaker 4: say an African American can be elected in any position,
Speaker 4: says that you have to build bridges. You have to
Speaker 4: build bridges between various communities, various races, ethnicity, religion, sex, orientation,
Speaker 4: all of those things matter. Because I can't run for
Speaker 4: an office and win just because black people vote for me.
Speaker 4: I could have every black person in state of Arizona
Speaker 4: vote for me in my small area, and I would
Speaker 4: not have enough to win against someone similarly positioned. So
Speaker 4: it's important that my message resonate, and it's important that
Speaker 4: as things have evolved and changed. The biggest change that
Speaker 4: I've seen more recently is that there are more folk
Speaker 4: willing to listen to the black person's message than in
Speaker 4: the past. Because, let's say when I was on the
Speaker 4: city council, I was elected member of city council nineteen
Speaker 4: ninety three, the only African American owned city council. However,
Speaker 4: there had been a gentleman before me that had been
Speaker 4: there twenty two years. After my eight there was a
Speaker 4: gentleman African American who was there for twelve years, but
Speaker 4: once that he ended his term that twelve year period
Speaker 4: excuse me, twenty four year period, twenty two year period ended.
Speaker 4: We haven't seen another African American on the Phoenix City
Speaker 4: Council because the numbers of Latino voters and Anglo voters
Speaker 4: that have populated the New Phoenix have not seen enough
Speaker 4: of us running for those offices. And the more that happens,
Speaker 4: the more you're going to see African Americans getting elected.
Speaker 4: It's not like being in Atlanta or some other place
Speaker 4: where the African American population is the majority, where you
Speaker 4: will see two or three or four African Americans in
Speaker 4: an election. New York City's election showed that there are
Speaker 4: a number of very qualified minority candidates that can be elected.
Speaker 4: So what I see from a change perspective is that
Speaker 4: more communities in our twenty four city metropolitan area, more
Speaker 4: communities around the country are seeing individual African Americans choose
Speaker 4: to run for office knowing they don't have a minority
Speaker 4: population that exceeds the broader population, and many of them
Speaker 4: are still being successful. And that is huge as it
Speaker 4: relates to our future because without elected individuals who come
Speaker 4: from those community, who produce their actions based on being
Speaker 4: African American and experiencing those issues that you and Q
Speaker 4: talk about on a regular basis. You know, I'm a
Speaker 4: black man and I've seen it. I've been in that
Speaker 4: car that has been pulled over and I wasn't the guy,
Speaker 4: but I looked I fit the bill, all right. I
Speaker 4: raised my two black children knowing that you're going to
Speaker 4: be big and black and you have to humble yourselves
Speaker 4: in some situation to stay alive. I'd rather you stay
Speaker 4: alive so we can get in the game. But if
Speaker 4: your mouth gets you in a place where it creates
Speaker 4: an outcome where you die, then all I have the
Speaker 4: ability to do is hire the mortuary and sue somebody.
Speaker 4: And I would rather you be alive and let me
Speaker 4: get in there and fight with you, which sends that
Speaker 4: broad a message we need to fight together. I can't
Speaker 4: have what we're doing now just be about young people
Speaker 4: in the streets. You got to have the middle age,
Speaker 4: you gotta have the seniors. You gotta let everybody who's
Speaker 4: ever cared about a black person be a part of
Speaker 4: caring about all of us.
Speaker 3: Excellent, excellent man.
Speaker 1: So there's something you said in it. You know, we
Speaker 1: talked about this the first time that we met. There's
Speaker 1: something to empowering generations to come. You know, this this
Speaker 1: plight of black people and brown people, and our Native
Speaker 1: brothers and sisters and so forth, all of our individual plights,
Speaker 1: which I believe are all kind of you know, there's
Speaker 1: yeah connected, We're all connected to each other's outcomes.
Speaker 3: It's not.
Speaker 1: It and we've seen it hasn't been solved in one generation.
Speaker 1: This isn't the first generation to take to the streets.
Speaker 1: This isn't the first generation, certainly not the first generation
Speaker 1: to run for office or to have a voice, or
Speaker 1: to you know, anything like that. How do we go
Speaker 1: about empowering ourselves or understanding that we can.
Speaker 3: Hold elected office too?
Speaker 1: Because when I look at you, I see somebody who's special,
Speaker 1: a brilliant mind, a very composed man.
Speaker 3: But I'll be hopefully.
Speaker 1: This doesn't sound like I'm feeling myself or anything, but
Speaker 1: I know that when people look at me and they're like,
Speaker 1: you're on the radio, I'm like, yeah, you know, they
Speaker 1: think that I have some special magic powers and that's
Speaker 1: not true.
Speaker 3: I'm just a normal guy who happens to do this.
Speaker 1: What is it that we can do to increase the number,
Speaker 1: that increase the representation, to ensure that there's you know.
Speaker 3: A snowball effective of the things that you started?
Speaker 4: Good question. I think there's it's a dual component. There's
Speaker 4: an ask aspect ask and there is an offer aspect
Speaker 4: I can offer to have you come into my court
Speaker 4: being in turn take tours. When I got elected as
Speaker 4: a city council person, I created something called the District
Speaker 4: Date Youth City Council.
Speaker 3: I read about that, Yeah, and I brought.
Speaker 4: In at least two members of every elementary school, in
Speaker 4: high school and junior high school that has that was
Speaker 4: in my council district, and that might be forty to
Speaker 4: fifty sixty kids in city Hall. I toured them to
Speaker 4: the police station. I toured them to the fire station.
Speaker 4: I toured them to the court Phoenix Municipal Court. I
Speaker 4: toured them to the airport because I wanted them to
Speaker 4: feel comfortable showing up at city Hall. Because a lot
Speaker 4: of times what we forget to remind our young people
Speaker 4: and people in general, is that if you pay taxes
Speaker 4: anywhere of any amount, you're paying for criminal justice. You're
Speaker 4: paying for the government structure. So if you commit a
Speaker 4: crime and you're paying for the salary of the officer
Speaker 4: who's arresting you, you're paying for the salary of the
Speaker 4: person who puts you in the holding cell, paying for
Speaker 4: the judges, the prosecutors, and the defense attorney. And if
Speaker 4: you're convicted, you are paying for the person who puts
Speaker 4: you in jail and watches over you. Because you are
Speaker 4: paying taxes. And this is your community. It's not their community,
Speaker 4: it's our community. And so you've got to get out
Speaker 4: that box. And it was important for me to bring
Speaker 4: kids to the court in the same way. So I
Speaker 4: do my South Mountain Justice Court teen Court, and we
Speaker 4: then are able to take juvenile juveniles who may be
Speaker 4: placed in that system and prevent recidivism by pulling them
Speaker 4: out and allowing their peers to actually hear their cases.
Speaker 4: As long as their parents are part of it. Then
Speaker 4: they are judicated, questioned, and sentenced by their peers. And
Speaker 4: those sentences may include restitution by writing letters, going to
Speaker 4: paid over the graffiti that they did, going and fixing
Speaker 4: things that they may have broken, apologizing to their parents
Speaker 4: or to the adult, or through whoever the other child
Speaker 4: may be. But these have tried to keep folk out
Speaker 4: of that system in the future. And once you become
Speaker 4: comfortable in the structure and say that I'm not afraid
Speaker 4: to go to city Hall and do some research for
Speaker 4: us it, I demystify it and I'm not afraid to
Speaker 4: go into the court because every time I've been there
Speaker 4: it's been a positive experience. As long as you're not
Speaker 4: that person who's in the orange jumpsuit, you've got control
Speaker 4: over everything. And that's what I need to remind them,
Speaker 4: and that's what I hope to make sure when they
Speaker 4: go home and talk to their parents, they share their experiences,
Speaker 4: because many of the parents may not have positive input
Speaker 4: our experience in that system. And so hopefully there's just
Speaker 4: this continued invitation. So I'm asking an offering, but I
Speaker 4: also need those who want to if that's a twinkle
Speaker 4: in their eye about being an elected official. You have
Speaker 4: to ask all of us who are currently how it happened.
Speaker 4: Come talk to us, call us on the phone, ask
Speaker 4: us if they get you know, we can have some coffee,
Speaker 4: Ask us if if there are some committees that I
Speaker 4: can appoint you to that start to give you access
Speaker 4: to the broader community. And that then is the ask part.
Speaker 4: So it's a two way street. I can't find you
Speaker 4: if I don't know you exist, But if you have
Speaker 4: a concept and idea and you won't share it with me,
Speaker 4: I can't help you with it.
Speaker 3: Very good. I feel like.
Speaker 1: On the show, we and we try not to, but
Speaker 1: I do recognize that a lot of times we tell
Speaker 1: the same stories over and over again. We just swap
Speaker 1: out the name, swap out the location, you know, but
Speaker 1: there is very much an attitude or energy that underscores
Speaker 1: the show is that could be described as us versus them, right,
Speaker 1: And I try not to lean into that too much,
Speaker 1: because I do recognize that we all need to move
Speaker 1: forward together because short of an entire race of people
Speaker 1: disappearing off the planet, we're stuck on the same ball,
Speaker 1: and we have to share its resources and hopefully share
Speaker 1: more happy exchanges with one another than you know, negative exchanges.
Speaker 1: I do believe that that's really what we can pursue.
Speaker 1: I do believe that's possible, but in this space, because
Speaker 1: the amount of stimulation it can be overwhelming that I
Speaker 1: do believe it is very easy to lose sight of
Speaker 1: the fact that we are participants the same as anyone else.
Speaker 1: It's not in us versus them. We have a responsibility
Speaker 1: and a right to fix our system.
Speaker 3: You know, we may not.
Speaker 1: Have created it or you know whatever, but if you're
Speaker 1: absolutely right, we pay taxes and we maintain it, then
Speaker 1: we own our fair share of it, and we are
Speaker 1: entitled to, you know, make our voices heard, either by
Speaker 1: by voting or by you know, holding an elected.
Speaker 3: Position in our communities.
Speaker 1: And so I appreciate that answer and that response because
Speaker 1: I think that for me you know, every so often
Speaker 1: I need to reset just to make sure that you
Speaker 1: know I'm not getting too far you know, left or
Speaker 1: right of what it is that I'm trying to do here.
Speaker 1: But with that said, you know, again on the show,
Speaker 1: you know Q and I have been you know, there's
Speaker 1: been tons of examples of us talking about just the
Speaker 1: way policing is done, especially with black and brown bodies.
Speaker 1: And I can tell you all all day that you know,
Speaker 1: I do believe like we do the show, and we
Speaker 1: empower allies and we empower ourselves because we believe that
Speaker 1: by doing that, we can create a better space for
Speaker 1: all of us. And Q, I'll let Q say his
Speaker 1: position on that.
Speaker 2: Well, I guess my position is not as optimistic as
Speaker 2: my brothers, and it really relates to what he just said.
Speaker 2: Doing this show, it is kind of our responsibility to
Speaker 2: digest this sometimes difficult story over and over again with
Speaker 2: different names, and it can be emotionally and mentally draining
Speaker 2: for me. But part of why we do this show
Speaker 2: is not just to encourage our allies, but to encourage
Speaker 2: each other as well. We want to make sure that
Speaker 2: we realize that there is a possibility of a better
Speaker 2: world for us, for our posterity, for our family in
Speaker 2: our communities, and the world that they will grow up in.
Speaker 2: We have to make sure or at least try to
Speaker 2: feel that there is hope on the other side of
Speaker 2: this hill that we're climbing. I am not a eternal pessimist,
Speaker 2: but I have to be authentic and real about the
Speaker 2: things that we do have to digest and reconcile every
Speaker 2: week as we do this show.
Speaker 4: Well, if you would allow, I feel your pain, because
Speaker 4: I feel very similar in the way that it keeps happening.
Speaker 4: And just remember that we didn't have the social media outlet,
Speaker 4: we didn't have camera phones growing up, but we always
Speaker 4: had situations where officers were abusing us. I have stories
Speaker 4: of officers driving you home or following you to your
Speaker 4: house instead of giving you a dui. You know. I've
Speaker 4: got stories of you know, when Powell had officers, they
Speaker 4: would come out and play ball with you. You know, So
Speaker 4: every time it's an US versus them, that sort of
Speaker 4: predicates that there should be a victor. You know, typically
Speaker 4: US versus them as a competition, and that versus part
Speaker 4: is what creates some of the pessimistic outcomes as well
Speaker 4: as the optimistic outcomes, because if you really put it
Speaker 4: in the context of African Americans on this country, on
Speaker 4: this land, far before it became a republic, before it
Speaker 4: became the United States, there were African Americans here who
Speaker 4: had been brought here for a lot of reasons, most
Speaker 4: of them for slavery based. And when you think about
Speaker 4: Juneteenth as a great example, took a while before the
Speaker 4: emancipation to acclamation got to the West and the rest
Speaker 4: of slave were understood we were free, But that did
Speaker 4: not change the minds of people who were in there.
Speaker 4: You had some black folks who crave the protection of
Speaker 4: the plantation, and you had black folks who loathe the
Speaker 4: concept of being slaves. And if you look at the
Speaker 4: evolution let's say technology, now, it used to be a
Speaker 4: point to where it takes ten years for something to change,
Speaker 4: five years for something to change, three years for something
Speaker 4: to change, eighteen months for something to change. New technology
Speaker 4: is changing on a rapid basis. Well, if you think
Speaker 4: about where we started from and now where we're headed,
Speaker 4: we have achieved more in the way of openness, understanding,
Speaker 4: situational awareness to now be a much more organized and
Speaker 4: powerful voice. We just need to consolidate it. It has
Speaker 4: to start being something that's just not talked about or
Speaker 4: waived about. It has to be concluded with us working together,
Speaker 4: no matter what the age, no matter what the race,
Speaker 4: no matter what your socioeconomic situation.
Speaker 3: And now watch pull my mic back. You're like that journalist.
Speaker 3: Journalists to we can strike.
Speaker 4: Waters from head, borders behind him to be the border.
Speaker 1: Well, if you're just tuning into Civic Cipher, I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Ramsy's John.
Speaker 4: They call me q Wallas.
Speaker 1: Indeed, uh, the Honorable Cody Williams, Judge Cody Williams joins
Speaker 1: us today and coming up later in the show, we
Speaker 1: are going to discuss a video that went viral.
Speaker 3: This past week.
Speaker 1: For those of you who have the tmz app, you've
Speaker 1: probably seen it three or four times now, but an
Speaker 1: officer on top of a little girl, pinning her to
Speaker 1: the ground.
Speaker 3: So we're going to talk about that.
Speaker 1: We also have our way Black History Fact coming up
Speaker 1: with DJ Swirl, and right now I would love to
Speaker 1: talk about how to become a better ally, so let's
Speaker 1: visit with Baba.
Speaker 3: Now. I do recognize that despite what we.
Speaker 1: Heard in the first half of the show, that we
Speaker 1: all need to get to where we're going together.
Speaker 3: That a lot of folks really do feel like it's
Speaker 3: in us versus them.
Speaker 1: It's the only way that people can make sense of
Speaker 1: the world. As a competition there on that side, we're
Speaker 1: on this side, and we need to win, right I
Speaker 1: recognize that. And I'm glad that you said what you
Speaker 1: said earlier in the show, because I want to echo
Speaker 1: that right now. Came across an article that says, you know,
Speaker 1: and another officer from the Capitol Riots took his own life,
Speaker 1: right And then in some of the comments, you know,
Speaker 1: there's some folks that are saying horrible things, like you know,
Speaker 1: some things I don't even want to repeat, but basically
Speaker 1: very horrible things about this man because he was a
Speaker 1: police officer, that the world is a better place because
Speaker 1: he took his own life. And I'm speaking to allies
Speaker 1: right now, folks that are very supportive of what's.
Speaker 3: Happening in black and brown America right now.
Speaker 1: I can't speak for everyone, but I will speak for
Speaker 1: myself and I will speak for the show Civic Cipher.
Speaker 1: Hopefully I can speak for Q as well and DJ
Speaker 1: Swirl when I say that we would never say anything
Speaker 1: like that. We don't believe that that is the right
Speaker 1: way to be. We recognize that whoever this officer was,
Speaker 1: I didn't get his name, and I should have because
Speaker 1: he deserves more than just that.
Speaker 3: It deserves some dignity.
Speaker 1: We recognize that he's a human being first, and that
Speaker 1: that antagonistic approach is not.
Speaker 3: Really what we're going for here.
Speaker 1: We really want there to be some commonality and so
Speaker 1: we don't want to celebrate the demise of anyone else,
Speaker 1: rather the accomplishments of our agenda. And in that way
Speaker 1: you can become a better ally. So don't let the
Speaker 1: most negative basic parts of yourself takeover. I just I
Speaker 1: wanted to say that, and I needed to use that
Speaker 1: segment to say it. So glad I got a chance
Speaker 1: to do it. Now back to police this time, we're
Speaker 1: going to Forny, Texas.
Speaker 3: So Q have you?
Speaker 1: I took this one this week, but I'm sure that
Speaker 1: it's come up a few times outside of our group chat.
Speaker 3: Have you heard about it or read about it? I
Speaker 3: saw the video.
Speaker 2: Yes, all of the above.
Speaker 4: I heard about it, read about it.
Speaker 2: And saw the video and just wanted to make a
Speaker 2: slight correction that the officer mounted a young lady, because
Speaker 2: I never wanted to come across like we're sensationalizing something
Speaker 2: to make the victim seem smaller or more fragile, or
Speaker 2: more weak when we say a baby or a child. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: I saw the video and I was just as enraged
Speaker 2: by it as you were, I'm sure.
Speaker 1: So let me we won't spend a lot of time
Speaker 1: discussing the video, but rather what happened afterwards. So in short,
Speaker 1: for those who haven't seen the video, there's an officer.
Speaker 1: His name is Connor Martin, and he is laying on
Speaker 1: top of a young lady I guess it's probably the
Speaker 1: right way to say it, and pinning her into the ground,
Speaker 1: and she's crying and she's saying that she can't breathe,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of commotion around her.
Speaker 3: You get, you get the picture on painting.
Speaker 1: The girl's name is Nikia Trigg and her mom is
Speaker 1: named Antonique, and Antonique was engaging with the officers, I guess,
Speaker 1: pleading with them to try to, you know, go easy
Speaker 1: on her little girl. Again, don't take this verbatim. If
Speaker 1: you want, you can watch the video or yourself. I'm
Speaker 1: trying to recall the details of it. Just so that
Speaker 1: we can talk about what comes next. Ultimately, the young
Speaker 1: lady Nikia and her mom Antonique are arrested, and you know,
Speaker 1: I do want to say what came from the officers
Speaker 1: or the police department. So they said that they had
Speaker 1: gotten reports that Nikia was walking in front of cars
Speaker 1: and attempting to harm herself. Will say that the family
Speaker 1: refutes that, but that's what the officers stated. And so
Speaker 1: because I don't have any more context with respect to
Speaker 1: the video, I'm sure more details will come out later,
Speaker 1: but because I don't have that at present, that's really
Speaker 1: what I know. And the video just shows an officer
Speaker 1: on a little girl. She's saying she can't breathe, and
Speaker 1: obviously we're here today to talk about that. But the
Speaker 1: thing that in the place where I want to start
Speaker 1: is the family said that they had received death threats
Speaker 1: from you know, the general population. They're in Texas, so
Speaker 1: you know it checks out. But also, sorry Texas if
Speaker 1: you're listening in Texas. But you know, we know that
Speaker 1: there's a lot of prejudice that exist in the in
Speaker 1: Texas and other parts of the South. But what was
Speaker 1: really surprising to me is that the family said that
Speaker 1: they were getting death threats from police officers. Well, and
Speaker 1: that feels a little scary, and that's what forced them
Speaker 1: to move away from their house. They move the next
Speaker 1: day out of that house.
Speaker 3: And so I guess I'll go first.
Speaker 1: And you know, we talked a little bit earlier, Judge
Speaker 1: Williams and I about cognitive bias. This was before we
Speaker 1: started broadcasting. But you know, that checks out in my
Speaker 1: mind based on the stories that I've heard, you know,
Speaker 1: police running black people out of town. Granted it sounds
Speaker 1: like a story from the forties or the thirties or something,
Speaker 1: but still very much consistent with behavior that I've learned
Speaker 1: that police often, you know, do these are things that happened.
Speaker 1: The police very much stick together. They protect themselves, and
Speaker 1: you know, if you're coming after one of them, you're
Speaker 1: coming after all of them. And there's this gang mentality
Speaker 1: that exists there. So this family gets run out of town.
Speaker 1: The reason why it's troubling is obviously, the police are
Speaker 1: supposed to protect and serve. That's what in theory, what
Speaker 1: they're supposed to do. And what we've seen in this
Speaker 1: video is they're responding to an incident. They didn't prevent
Speaker 1: any crime or anything like that. They're responding to it,
Speaker 1: and I wasn't able to really see a lot of
Speaker 1: protection or serving and it's hard to write that into
Speaker 1: the story at this point based on limited information. I
Speaker 1: learned my lesson talking too soon about a video. But
Speaker 1: I want to get both of your thoughts on the video.
Speaker 1: If you've seen it, Jodge Williams, I'd love to hear
Speaker 1: your thoughts as well. But you you said you've seen
Speaker 1: the video, and now that you know that the family
Speaker 1: had been run out of town, I'd love to hear
Speaker 1: your thoughts on it.
Speaker 2: I'm really glad that we have Judge Williams here with
Speaker 2: us to talk about.
Speaker 3: This topic because he is a parent. Cody Jr.
Speaker 2: And Alan, I actually got a chance to meet Allan
Speaker 2: working alongside the Phoenix Suns over the years, and Rams
Speaker 2: and I have had a chance to admire your family
Speaker 2: because you guys, for years have set an amazing example
Speaker 2: for us, you and your wife, for us as fathers,
Speaker 2: you guys have made it so that as parents we
Speaker 2: can point to a realistic, achievable goal to our children.
Speaker 2: So in this instance, I just can't imagine being there
Speaker 2: in the position of that mother watching her child struggle
Speaker 2: to breathe terrified, held down and mounted by an officer,
Speaker 2: and all she wanted to do was protect her child,
Speaker 2: and the harder she tried to help her, the harder
Speaker 2: that officer tried to hold her down. And several other
Speaker 2: officers arrived to the scene and did nothing to make.
Speaker 3: The situation better.
Speaker 2: And there were more than enough officers there for someone
Speaker 2: else to be able to intervene, even if it's helping
Speaker 2: the officer and the girl up from the ground, to
Speaker 2: restrain her, to put her in handcuffs. If the idea
Speaker 2: is she was trying to harm herself and we need
Speaker 2: to protect her. So what is the right thing to
Speaker 2: do if you're a parent in that position? Because you
Speaker 2: said something earlier, and it's a sentiment that I've had
Speaker 2: to echo. I adopted a teenage nephew recently, and I've
Speaker 2: had to tell him, humble yourself. In a moment, you
Speaker 2: might have to lose some dignity and some self respect
Speaker 2: so that you can live and get back to me,
Speaker 2: and then we can figure out what to do moving forward. So,
Speaker 2: as a mother, as a father, a father specifically with
Speaker 2: that being charged number one to ourselves to protect our families,
Speaker 2: What is the best case scenario for a mother for
Speaker 2: a parent in that scenario.
Speaker 4: Well, from my perspective, first and foremost, the things that
Speaker 4: we have seen over the last five, seven, eighteen years
Speaker 4: are great examples of the lack of decision making context
Speaker 4: because many times we see examples of officers not a equipped
Speaker 4: to deal with situations that they are faced with. Where
Speaker 4: there's the gentleman who's taking his kids, he's not listening
Speaker 4: to the police, he's trying to leave, the mother's trying
Speaker 4: to stop him. He's player in the car, and the officer,
Speaker 4: instead of tasing or putting down strips on the ground,
Speaker 4: he shoots him. Jacob Blake, you know. And again I
Speaker 4: wasn't going to start to mention names because there's too
Speaker 4: many of them. But at the same time, there was
Speaker 4: a situation here in the city of Phoenix where an
Speaker 4: officer was called by the family of an older senior
Speaker 4: citizens who had lost her I mean, not taken her medication,
Speaker 4: and she had been very problematic for the family and
Speaker 4: they called the police to help them deal with her
Speaker 4: so she could get the help she needed and to
Speaker 4: get her on her maids. She had a hammer in
Speaker 4: her hand, and the police arrived and nine police officers
Speaker 4: surrounding her, in one of them or more than one
Speaker 4: end up shooting her as the way to address the issue,
Speaker 4: when in reality, too many times the suggestion of calling
Speaker 4: the police means the police feel like they have to
Speaker 4: address it immediately, so instead of you know, I'm a
Speaker 4: firm believer that if you show up at the scene
Speaker 4: and you pull your gun, everybody who else shows up
Speaker 4: is going to have their gun out. But if you're
Speaker 4: the person who shows up the scene first and your
Speaker 4: gun is holsted, and you look around to all of
Speaker 4: your comparatriots and say, this is a woman who's offer
Speaker 4: a meds, who has a hammer, we can be patient
Speaker 4: enough to allow us to resolve this. If she starts
Speaker 4: coming to you, back up, move away, she doesn't have
Speaker 4: a gun, She's not going to shoot you. But the
Speaker 4: thought that you have to immediately address this issue and
Speaker 4: force that issue into some kind of outcome like lying
Speaker 4: on top of someone as opposed to getting off of
Speaker 4: that person and allowing the greater number to rein in
Speaker 4: the situation, that becomes decision making. And I believe that
Speaker 4: across this country, one policing and training it has to
Speaker 4: have a continuous overhaul, because there are so many folks
Speaker 4: who are still part of agencies twenty thirty years later
Speaker 4: that still have in mindset that when we get called
Speaker 4: and we need to address this issue immediately, and so
Speaker 4: the desire to be patient to assess situations and allow
Speaker 4: them to evolve in a way that they can still
Speaker 4: can control it without losing the dignity or putting the
Speaker 4: person who you've been called to help in harm's way.
Speaker 4: As a parent, I'm sitting there watching you on top
Speaker 4: of my child, just like the young girl who videoed
Speaker 4: the the happening. In minutes, I've lost my train of thought.
Speaker 4: But George Floyd, you know everybody in that George Floyd
Speaker 4: environment was saying get off. Think if you just thought,
Speaker 4: if you had the capacity to understand that time has passed,
Speaker 4: you may have lost track of time. But you've been
Speaker 4: on this man's neck for way too long. And if
Speaker 4: we aren't bold enough as other officers and our training
Speaker 4: doesn't say you need to go check your boy, we're
Speaker 4: gonna transfer this, We're gonna hand this off. I need
Speaker 4: you to come over and I need you to place
Speaker 4: your hands or put him in handcuffs. Because if you're
Speaker 4: in handcuffs, what's the danger? All right? Then I gonna
Speaker 4: shoot you. You didn't have access to a gun. You know.
Speaker 4: The reality Tea is is what's she going to do.
Speaker 4: She's on the ground, she's a young person and she's
Speaker 4: obviously having mental issues. If she's in the middle of
Speaker 4: the street and cars are dodging her, what you want
Speaker 4: to do is protect her. You want to protect those drivers,
Speaker 4: and you want to make sure you go home tonight
Speaker 4: as well. So, yes, parents have to equip their children.
Speaker 4: This community has to continuously overhaul the decision making capacity
Speaker 4: and aspects of decision making and law enforcement because the
Speaker 4: risk of making the wrong decision in a heated moment
Speaker 4: could result in the loss of a life that should
Speaker 4: never have been taken, or the embarrassment or traumatization of
Speaker 4: a human being that should never have had to go
Speaker 4: through those things.
Speaker 1: I want to ask you something, well, rather, I would
Speaker 1: like you to do me a favor because there's a
Speaker 1: lot of people. You're very popular person, and a lot
Speaker 1: of people would be very upset if we didn't discuss
Speaker 1: not just your professional relationship with the Phoenix Police Department,
Speaker 1: but you're rather more personal relationship with the Phoenix Police Department.
Speaker 1: And so would you be so kind as too.
Speaker 4: I think you want me to say, I'm married to
Speaker 4: the chief of police. I am happily married for over
Speaker 4: thirty years to the first African American female and first
Speaker 4: female chief of police in the city of Phoenix, the
Speaker 4: fifth largest city in the United States. And she's been
Speaker 4: chief police in the city of oxen Ard for over
Speaker 4: a five year period before she came here. She's been
Speaker 4: in law enforcement for thirty two years. And I'm very
Speaker 4: proud of the efforts that she's made because she's approached
Speaker 4: her job as a mother and the mother of black
Speaker 4: male children. And so I can't tell you how many
Speaker 4: times I've heard her make those statements to the community
Speaker 4: that hey, look, you are like my children. I do
Speaker 4: not want you harmed, and I will make sure that
Speaker 4: the organization that is the Phoenix Police Department will continuously
Speaker 4: evolve to a place where they respect your children too,
Speaker 4: you know. And so they have a duplicitous job they
Speaker 4: have to address those situations because when somebody dials nine
Speaker 4: one one and you don't show up, you're gonna get
Speaker 4: complaints about the fact that nobody showed up, particularly if
Speaker 4: you need someone to help you or to save your life,
Speaker 4: because many times that's what the call is about. There
Speaker 4: are all those other situations that involve individuals who make decisions.
Speaker 4: And I can assure you, even as a city council person,
Speaker 4: long before she was a chief of police, we were
Speaker 4: addressing the way law enforcement interacted with the community because
Speaker 4: so many times it looks like a mirror of this
Speaker 4: movie environment that we kind of currently see where you
Speaker 4: see somebody get thrown on the ground and they start
Speaker 4: cursing your eye, get your outfit add on the ground,
Speaker 4: and blah blah blah. Well, when you start to see
Speaker 4: videos on somebody's phone where they're doing the very same
Speaker 4: thing that you saw in the movie last night, it's
Speaker 4: starting to say that I don't know if any law
Speaker 4: enforcement agency that's training their officers to curse people out
Speaker 4: and throw them and hurt them and throw them on
Speaker 4: the ground. Somewhere in there is a culture that has
Speaker 4: allowed that in some cases, but has perpetuated it in
Speaker 4: some individuals who are like a cancer and can't be removed.
Speaker 4: And so the goal of at least my knowledge is
Speaker 4: to try to weed and seed. You're trying to weed
Speaker 4: out the bad and plant new officers in. We need
Speaker 4: more African American young people, We need more Hispanic law
Speaker 4: enforcement offs. We need more minorities to join law enforcement
Speaker 4: to change some of those ways of thought.
Speaker 3: I want to ask you a question.
Speaker 1: Let me preface it by saying some things that I
Speaker 1: have heard have not confirmed myself. On the show, We've
Speaker 1: had many of the young women from Black Lives Matter,
Speaker 1: and I've heard the statistic that Phoenix is that has
Speaker 1: the deadliest police department in the country.
Speaker 3: I've heard that, perhaps from more than one source. Right now.
Speaker 3: I love what you said about.
Speaker 1: Weeding, weeding and seating, you know, weeding out the bad
Speaker 1: officers and so forth. Those folks have a rather different philosophy,
Speaker 1: and that philosophy is to defund the police. Now, because
Speaker 1: this is a shared forum, if they say that, I
Speaker 1: would love to ask what your thoughts on on that are.
Speaker 4: Well. Let me first by saying, there have there was
Speaker 4: a period of time about three four years ago where
Speaker 4: the statement of being the deadliest force was very true,
Speaker 4: and UH, the City of Phoenix police chief, the City
Speaker 4: Council UH brought in outside third party people to do
Speaker 4: studies on where these what what how these broke down.
Speaker 4: How many of these happened where no one pulled a
Speaker 4: gun and the officer shot that person or was responsible
Speaker 4: for their death. Others where the officers were responding to
Speaker 4: someone and someone was shooting at them and the death occurred.
Speaker 4: And so there was this clear understanding of what this were,
Speaker 4: what this was. And so over the last three years
Speaker 4: that number has fallen substantially. And that's positive. I mean,
Speaker 4: that's information, that's public information that if you want to
Speaker 4: have access to it, there's a study, and there is
Speaker 4: clear measurement of those kinds of things. And what I
Speaker 4: also know is that whenever there is a shooting that
Speaker 4: occurs with Lafoenis police officers, they release the body worn
Speaker 4: camera to the public as soon as they possibly can,
Speaker 4: long before the investigation is over, so that they can
Speaker 4: see and hear the situation as it occurred. They give
Speaker 4: you the caveat saying, hey, look, we have not concluded
Speaker 4: an investigation. This is just hard, unedited information that you
Speaker 4: get to make your own assessment, and then as we
Speaker 4: go through that process, we will make sure we let
Speaker 4: you know. So these are some of those changes that
Speaker 4: have occurred as a result of that The reality of
Speaker 4: it is, if you, as a community member, imagine that
Speaker 4: when one officer does something stupid, bad, dumb. However the
Speaker 4: case is that that's the way all of the offices are,
Speaker 4: then you guys have a bad situation and you got
Speaker 4: to work on that, all right, And so we just
Speaker 4: need to make sure that there's always sharing of the information.
Speaker 4: Report those individuals in each of those interactions. Force law
Speaker 4: enforcement in any city in this valley, any city in
Speaker 4: this country, to investigate your individual situations. Make supervisors aware
Speaker 4: of how their employees are acting. And those are the
Speaker 4: things that sort of get us to those hopefully positive resolutions.
Speaker 3: Very good, Very good.
Speaker 1: Well, normally I jump right into the way black history fact.
Speaker 1: But I feel like you didn't quite get a chance
Speaker 1: to answer or respond to your thoughts on that defund
Speaker 1: the police if you like, Yes, I would love to
Speaker 1: hear your thoughts.
Speaker 4: And I appreciate you asking the question because I think
Speaker 4: the most important thing that I can say about it
Speaker 4: is that how is defund the police defined? I've heard
Speaker 4: at least a half dozen to a dozen different definitions,
Speaker 4: and that comes by community. So does defund the police
Speaker 4: mean that you want to take monies? That are currently
Speaker 4: budgeted to them and use them elsewhere. Does that mean
Speaker 4: that you want to reduce the number of law enforcement
Speaker 4: officers that currently exist and cut positions? Does that mean
Speaker 4: that you want to defund the global context of police
Speaker 4: and then use whatever monies that you are able to
Speaker 4: capture and place that in social services programs or alternative
Speaker 4: programs that have to be determined if they have a
Speaker 4: similar outcome or value. And so I can certainly appreciate
Speaker 4: that there are areas of fluff in probably every police department,
Speaker 4: but they're probably most involved. I mean, excuse me. Most
Speaker 4: police officers and police organizations would tell you that they
Speaker 4: are operating on a bare minimum set of budget criteria.
Speaker 4: And you have to manage defunding the police in whatever
Speaker 4: definition you choose with do you still want your law
Speaker 4: enforcement organization to respond to your calls? What role in
Speaker 4: your community do you want the police department to play?
Speaker 4: And if you can't define that, then defunding the police
Speaker 4: doesn't change the underlying issue you have with the police.
Speaker 4: If you have an issue with how they approach you,
Speaker 4: then you need to talk about using resources to educate
Speaker 4: law enforcement and training programs, both the new ones coming
Speaker 4: in and the existing ones, you have to make sure
Speaker 4: that they are responding to your citizenry the way you
Speaker 4: feel comfortable with.
Speaker 1: Can I ask you this then? So there is a
Speaker 1: school of thought that police, a greater police presence on
Speaker 1: the ground will lead to less in the way of
Speaker 1: criminal activities.
Speaker 4: But what.
Speaker 1: I don't want to say, what is often the case
Speaker 1: is police will can at best respond once a crime
Speaker 1: has been committed. A crime has to happen in order
Speaker 1: for the police to come investigate, hopefully catch the bad guy.
Speaker 1: And then you know, the bad guy comes and sees
Speaker 1: you in court. And so by defunding the police department
Speaker 1: and putting it into those social services as you mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: you're able to actually put together programs that prevent the
Speaker 1: crime from happening in the first place. And then their
Speaker 1: studies about what is the source.
Speaker 3: Of different types of crime.
Speaker 1: Obviously there's some folks who are just sick, but there's
Speaker 1: usually a lot of economic reasons for criminal activity. And
Speaker 1: if those reasons are economic based and we are not
Speaker 1: addressing them, then we're not addressing the root cause of crime.
Speaker 3: We end up with a inflated.
Speaker 1: Police staff, several officers that are basically policing the citizenry
Speaker 1: and then we end up in it with a police
Speaker 1: state more or less.
Speaker 4: So what do you think about that? Well, the first
Speaker 4: thing I would and I can only speak to Phoenix,
Speaker 4: and then the Metropolitanian city of Phoenix has about one
Speaker 4: point three one point four million people in its population.
Speaker 4: It's approximately four hundred and fifty square miles. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 4: there are somewhere between twenty five hundred to three thousand
Speaker 4: sworn officers in the City of Phoenix, twenty five hundred
Speaker 4: two for one point three five. Then you take that
Speaker 4: twenty five hundred and you break them up into investigations,
Speaker 4: you break them up into a small percentage into swat
Speaker 4: patrol officers and the various different things that they are
Speaker 4: responsible for. So you really only have about a nucleus
Speaker 4: of maybe one thousand to fifteen hundred maybe two that
Speaker 4: are actually.
Speaker 3: Engaged to include sheriffs.
Speaker 4: No, that's just the City of Phoenix's police department. It
Speaker 4: is the largest police department police organization in the state
Speaker 4: of Arizona. The county has its own officials that typically
Speaker 4: deal with cities, smaller cities that don't have the resources
Speaker 4: to have their own police departments. And in rural areas
Speaker 4: within the metropolitan So you'll see them in certain areas
Speaker 4: where you think your city you got a Tempe police
Speaker 4: by there at least fifteen different police or more departments.
Speaker 4: Mesa has one, TIMP has when Glendale has one. Peoria
Speaker 4: has its own police department, And so each of them
Speaker 4: has a responsibility to their specific defined area and their population.
Speaker 4: So to suggest that two thousand officers have the ability
Speaker 4: to create a police state when there's one point three
Speaker 4: million people that they are responsible for, I kind of
Speaker 4: think that that's a little bit traumatic. That's a huge reality.
Speaker 4: But I do agree that when you start to look
Speaker 4: at the whole economic issue of where crime curves, then
Speaker 4: that forces other departments other you know, the city's economic
Speaker 4: development department, the services department, the Streets and Transportation department.
Speaker 4: All of those departments deal with that very same population
Speaker 4: that the police end up responding to as opposed to
Speaker 4: having the ability to help prevent. And so if someone
Speaker 4: says we want to take money from the police department
Speaker 4: to do these programs, why not say I want to
Speaker 4: take money from all of these departments who have some
Speaker 4: kind of impact. Again, going back to the fact that
Speaker 4: we pay our taxes, you pay property taxes, you pay
Speaker 4: sales tax when you get buy something. There are all
Speaker 4: kinds of taxes that help create the moneies that fund
Speaker 4: all of these departments. And yes, there is a presence
Speaker 4: with the police department that is visible because they're driving
Speaker 4: along the streets every day. But in reality, there's pots
Speaker 4: of money that are all over various cities budgets and
Speaker 4: counties budgets that could also be utilized to do the
Speaker 4: very same thing. I don't know if that answers your
Speaker 4: question more than answers more than answers it.
Speaker 3: You know, there's a.
Speaker 1: We've done the show, Q and I have done the
Speaker 1: show for some time, and rarely do we have anyone
Speaker 1: who is an elected official. Rarely do we have anyone
Speaker 1: who works in criminal justice. And today we have a
Speaker 1: judge whose wife is the chief of police, you know.
Speaker 1: And so these questions are very important. I appreciate you
Speaker 1: taking the time to answer them, because again, this show
Speaker 1: was created so that black people could have a space
Speaker 1: in radio, specifically where black culture was being celebrated and consumed.
Speaker 1: But far be it from me to say that I
Speaker 1: know what's right for all black people, and so having
Speaker 1: context and having different perspectives really does mean a lot.
Speaker 1: It matters more to me than I could ever say,
Speaker 1: And so I app shape your responses and I appreciate
Speaker 1: your time just coming up and hanging out, and hopefully,
Speaker 1: hopefully we'll have you back again because there's so many
Speaker 1: more things that we can talk about, and you know,
Speaker 1: Q knows there's so many things that we don't get
Speaker 1: to talk about on the show.
Speaker 3: In fact, today.
Speaker 1: We didn't even get to do our way Black History
Speaker 1: fact and you know, uh sorry.
Speaker 3: But you know that you saw where it was going on.
Speaker 1: So so yeah.
Speaker 4: Well let me just can I thank you and Q
Speaker 4: for allowing you know, this og to have an opportunity
Speaker 4: to participate, because I see it from both the ends.
Speaker 4: You know, I believe in that reality that you are
Speaker 4: engaged in, but I also see it from a variety
Speaker 4: of angles. And there is no perfection to how we
Speaker 4: live in society, but there is reflection in how we
Speaker 4: address and deal with folks. So every time you get
Speaker 4: mad at one issue, if you think that's it, then
Speaker 4: you're losing the opportunity to address the reality that we
Speaker 4: don't know what, we don't know where it is, and
Speaker 4: we need to make sure we spend the time to
Speaker 4: educate ourselves and to be stronger in the way we
Speaker 4: approach these things.
Speaker 3: I'll take it once again. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: The Honorable Judge Cody Williams joining us today on Civic
Speaker 1: Cipher once again. I'm your host, rams is Jah. They
Speaker 1: call me q Ward and we appreciate you listening every week.
Speaker 1: Please check the website to download this in any previous episodes.
Speaker 1: Civiccipher dot com. Follow us on social media at Civic Cipher.
Speaker 1: Can also make a donation through our website. It really
Speaker 1: helps to show grow and we are growing because of
Speaker 1: your support.
Speaker 3: I think that'll do it. Show produced by DJ Swall
Speaker 3: until next week, y'all peace. Y'all know we had the
Speaker 4: Book