1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Summer camp in the middle 2 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 1: of nowhere, fun times, swimming in the lake, arts and crafts, 3 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: new friends, sitting around a campfire, childhood memories that last 4 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: a lifetime. Right wrong, Oklahoma, rolling hills and forests. Four 5 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 1: hundred densely wooded acres turned from campsite to crime scene. 6 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:46,319 Speaker 1: Three little scouts, ages eight, nine and ten murdered. I'm 7 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being 8 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation. In series six one eleven, 9 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: we follow the exclusive new Fox Nation series The Girl 10 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: Scout Murders all week on Crime Stories. First of all, 11 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: take a listen to this. These woods in northeastern Oklahoma 12 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: are the site of one of the worst crimes imaginable. 13 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: Two busloads of Girl Scouts left Tulsa headed for Camp Scott, 14 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: a girl Scout retreat located on the Cherokee Reservation some 15 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 1: fifty miles away. Among the girls were ten year old 16 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: Denise Milner, nine year old Michelle Gouse an eight year 17 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: old Laurie Farmer. What happened next is unthinkable. Three young 18 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: girls being sexually assaulted, murdered. There are children's names you 19 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: always remember. Laurie and Anisa Michelle. They're there and they're 20 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: never going to go away. We left off this story 21 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,559 Speaker 1: where about a mile away from the camp. This camp 22 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: is about an hour outside of Tultsa, and about a 23 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: mile outside of the camp is found a cave of 24 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: sorts has been referred to as a cave is actually 25 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: an unusable root seller that once with with a home 26 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: and apparently somebody is living in this cave slash root 27 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:32,959 Speaker 1: seller and that someone leaves behind clues. Take a listen. 28 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: A medio blow chair of Pete Weaver identified Jane will 29 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: Roy Hart, who was the Cherokee Indian as a prime suspect. 30 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: Geane Hart was a local. He only lived within a 31 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: mile of the crime scene. He had been convicted of 32 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: two previous rapes earlier on. He had escaped from the 33 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 1: Mays County jail several times, so there was some history 34 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: there between Mays County Chare office with Jane Hard. The 35 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: sheriff at the time. Pete Weaver didn't particularly care for 36 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: Jeane Hart and he was inditedifed early by Pete Weaver 37 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 1: as being the primary suspect. It was just assumed he 38 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: was guilty. And if people are assuming he guilty, since 39 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: the thought was they're not going to treat him fairly. 40 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: They've got the bodies of three little girls to worry about. 41 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 1: I want to go straight to Faith Phillips, Cherokee screenwriter 42 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: and author of Now I Lay Me Down, because you 43 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: describe the injuries to these three little girls horrific, beyond 44 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: really anything that I had ever learned about in my 45 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: true crime writing. I had never seen anything like it. 46 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: Two of the girls were struck immediately in the head, 47 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: and one died immediately, and the other apparently survived at 48 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: least for some time because she had some swelling in 49 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: her eye and she was beating several times in the head. 50 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: Then the third girl, Denise Milner, she was she according 51 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: to the information I found, she tried to make a 52 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: break for it out of the tent and was caught 53 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: and they put they put a rope around her neck, 54 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 1: and she was also beaten terribly about the head. And 55 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: all three of them were sexually assaulted, and it was 56 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: just the nature of what happened to these little girls 57 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: was absolutely brutal. Joining me is can't freight us? The 58 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: former minority leader in the Oklahoma House of Representatives and 59 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: author of Oklahoma's most notorious crimes intimately familiar with this case, 60 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 1: in particular, the Girl Scout murdyers. Can't fright us. Thank 61 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,479 Speaker 1: you for being with us. We keep saying sex assaulted. 62 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: I mean that could be a number of things. That 63 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: could be fondling a little girl through her clothing. It 64 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: could be anything brushing up against her. Were in These 65 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: three little girls ages eight, nine and ten were raped, 66 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: brutally raped, And I'm not going to airbrush what happened 67 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: to these girls. Kent, Well, it was terrible. The crime 68 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: was terrible, and it was a premeditated crime. The evidence 69 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: fled to that, and the evidence fled to the prime 70 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: suspect being Jean Lee roy Hard. You know, James, I 71 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 1: don't a follow up on what Kent Fred has just 72 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: said to James Powell, former Senior Agent Oklahoma State Bureau 73 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: of Investigation, former Air Force Office Special Investigations. It goes 74 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: on and on and on, and he is the owner 75 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: of the investigator LLLC. James Powell, thank you for being 76 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: with us. How in the hey? James Powell is a 77 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 1: guy who's been convicted of rape and many other crimes, 78 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: living one mile from a Girl Scout camp. Well, his 79 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: mother elm Buskin is actually her house, and he was 80 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: just about a mile from the crime scene. It's kind 81 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: of a mystery how he got out. He was previously 82 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: convicted of a double rape of two pregnant women. Wait 83 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: wait wait wait wait wait stop what did you just say? Yes, 84 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: he was previously convicted of a double rape two pregnant women. 85 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: Now wait, wait, wait, wait wait. James, you know what, 86 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 1: I like you because you've got an incredible and pristine reputation. 87 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: But I don't like the way that trips off your tongue. 88 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:45,679 Speaker 1: Wait a minute, the double rape of two pregnant ladies? 89 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: You know, do you think is there anything as bad 90 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 1: as raping an eight nineteen year old girl? I still 91 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: say no, but raping two pregnant women is a very 92 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: close second. James, Well, I mean you just kind of 93 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: ran through that. Okay, it's soaked in now go ahead. 94 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: For whatever reason, he only served about twenty eight months 95 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: on that sent You know, I don't like anything you 96 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: just said. Now, I'm not gonna blame the messenger. Please don't, Okay, 97 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: James Powell the Investigator LLC, Is there anything else you 98 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: want to tell me other than the double rape of 99 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: two pregnant women and he's out in twenty eight months. Correct. 100 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: He also once he was out, he started committing burglaries. 101 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: He was caught and convicted of burglary. They sentenced him 102 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: in park because of the probation violation on the rape 103 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: case over three hundred years. That's what he was doing 104 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: back in May's County is he had come back from 105 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: the state tentry to May's County to have a hearing 106 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: on a post conviction relief on the amount of years 107 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: he was sentenced to for the burglary. While there he 108 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: did his escape, which led to the rest of what 109 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: we're talking about. You know, James Powell, it takes a 110 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: lot to make me feel nauseous. I can go through autopsies, 111 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: full autopsies, I can go to crime scenes, I can 112 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: smell blood, I can see it all. You actually just 113 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: made me nauseous. I'm sorry. So there's your badge of honor. 114 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: So a guy out on a double rate of pregnant women, 115 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: a string of burglaries, he escapes. How did he escape? 116 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: Anybody on the panel that knows, please tell me, don't 117 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: roll back. Well, he actually escaped twice. Make it worse. 118 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: I just keep feeling like I'm getting hit in the face. 119 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: He escaped twice from the same jail, and prior he 120 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 1: escaped once for about ten or eleven days, and some 121 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: of his family convinced him to turn himself in. Then 122 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: he not too long later, he escaped by sawing through 123 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: the bars with some one ahead given him the saw 124 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: to saw through the bars. And at the time of 125 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: the murders, he had been a fugitive for over three years, 126 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: going on four years. What a hole that's a technical 127 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 1: legal term. Gave him a saw? Who can't fredus? Who 128 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: gave him a saw to get out? Unknown? It's unknown 129 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: who gave him the shaw. I guarantee you it was 130 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: a woman. I know it was a woman who would 131 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,839 Speaker 1: even think, probably in a cake or something. Okay, let 132 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: me get past the double rape of two pregnant women 133 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: and the double escape act. And here we are, here's 134 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: this guy living one mile like they couldn't figure out 135 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: he's at his mother's place. That's the first thing I 136 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: say on a bond calendar, what lawyer do I have 137 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: on me? Ken Fredus attorney, That's the first thing you 138 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: do at a bond hearing with a defendant doesn't show 139 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 1: up like go to his mother's that's where he is. 140 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: Go look under the bed, he's there, Or in the 141 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: closet behind the dirty laundry. Go there. Yeah, it always 142 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: happens that way. Well, what you got here, though, is 143 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: you've got somebody you can't find. And even after the 144 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: murders and after he was a suspect, it took nine months. 145 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:22,079 Speaker 1: And Agent Powell can tell you about this, but it 146 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: took him nine months to find and locating. Part of 147 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 1: it was the nature of the country that he was 148 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: hiding in. He was no longer hiding in the cave. 149 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: He was hiding elsewhere, but he was being assisted by 150 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: a Cherokee in the backwoods. Hey, you know that reminds 151 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: me of Eric Rudolf, the Olympic bomber. I was there 152 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: that night. I went from enjoying the Olympics to questioning 153 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: witnesses till four am. And then the same guy, Eric Rudolf, 154 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: blew up an abortion clinic and my investigator Arnist, was 155 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: there look at the first abortion clinic bomb. When he 156 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: had reached another bomb to go off, and my investigator 157 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: was hit with debris and then he hit out in 158 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: the woods. Eric Rudolph for years before they could catch him. Okay, guys, 159 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: I'm getting really bogged down with this guy who we 160 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,199 Speaker 1: don't use the H word in our home, but I'm 161 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: gonna say it. I hate I hate this person. Okay, 162 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: let's move forward. Listen to this. It was Jean Hart 163 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: had support from local Cherokee families. Hard with stained with 164 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: an old Cherokee named Sam Pigeon in a remote cabin 165 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 1: in the Cookson Hills in eastern Oklahoma that was about 166 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: fifty miles south and the little East I think of 167 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:57,719 Speaker 1: where the crime took place on April seventh, nineteen seventy eight, 168 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: and me of agents from the Oklahoma State Bureau of 169 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 1: Investigation moves in and surrounds the shack. Hard did not 170 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: put up for fire crime stories with Nancy Grace. Doctor 171 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: Shawn Robertson is joining us psychologist has conducted thousands of 172 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: forensic evaluations across Oklahoma. You can find him at doctor 173 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,959 Speaker 1: Shawn Robertson dot com. Doctor Robertson, thank you for being 174 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: with us. What kind of person would give a double 175 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: rapist a saw to get out of jail? What person 176 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: would hide him out in remote cabin? Forget about the 177 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: three girl Dead Girl scouts. Forget about the two pregnant 178 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: women that were raped, and god knows how many other 179 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: victims are out there. But yeah, you can can stay 180 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: in my mountain cabin and I'll protect you. Who. Well, 181 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 1: it's it's pretty amazing. But you know, even serial killers 182 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: have fan clubs. People can conduct the most heinous crimes 183 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: and still be cared about, supported by their community. Sometimes 184 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: even characterize his victims. I mean, you look at you 185 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: look at Heart's family that you reportedly celebrated the end 186 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 1: of the trial with champagne. You know who who would 187 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: celebrate that when the suspect is a known sexual psychopath? 188 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: You know. Joseph Scott Morgan joining me, Professor fras at 189 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet. 190 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 1: He's a host of a new hit series of body 191 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: Bags with Joe Scott Morgan, on iHeart and many other venues, Jessica, 192 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 1: I heard Faith Phillips, who I have so much respect for, 193 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 1: the Cherokee screenwriter and author, say, you know when I 194 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: asked her to describe what happened to these three little girls. 195 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: And I'm asking this for a reason. Joe Scott is 196 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: the dichotomy of what we were hearing doctor Robertson say 197 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: about wanting to protect someone identifying with them, they turned 198 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: into kind of a hero. You tell me, Fate said, well, 199 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: I've never seen anything like it, because she is a screenwriter. 200 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: You and I have actually seen the real thing and 201 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: a triple child murder. The three little girls were brutally 202 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: raped and then murdered. You know, yesterday we talked to 203 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: the camp counselor that found their bodies. I can't even 204 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: imagine how that haunts her to this day. So just 205 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: give me a reality check, Joe Scott. We've got this 206 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: guy Sam hiding him out, Sam Pigeon in a remote house. 207 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: I guess he didn't see the dead bodies. No, he 208 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: probably didn't, but you know, you have to think that 209 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: on some level he had some understanding of the level 210 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: of violence this person was capable of, given his history 211 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: and what he did to these aforementioned crutinent women when 212 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: he raped them, and when you, as an investigator began 213 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: to assist this scene and the level of brutality this 214 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: rose to, you know, he had several choices here as 215 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: to the way he was going to bring about the 216 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: end of these little angels. Lives, and he decided to 217 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: beat them to death. And in one instance, not only 218 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: did he bludge in them, but he you know, he 219 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: also utilize the chord uh to strangle them. And you know, 220 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: as horrible as that is, these things that you and 221 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: I have born witness till over the years, you have 222 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: to be able to cut through the horror of that 223 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: and get right now, just born down to the evidence exactly. 224 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: Another thing that's so startling, I guess I can use 225 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: that word you decide for yourself, is that there were 226 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: warnings this was going to happen. Listen, precamped the only 227 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: or counselors and myself and someone found a cut and 228 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: I think it was in the body of the tent, 229 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: and maybe at the back of the tent, a long 230 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: cut about three feet big enough for anybody to crawl 231 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: in or out of. There were also some other things missing. 232 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: There was one of our axes or hatchets was missing 233 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: from the unit kitchen. And I decided to sleep in 234 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: the staff house. I was the only one in there. 235 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 1: It was dark. There's a vapor light out in the front, 236 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:13,360 Speaker 1: but in the back it's just woods. I heard somebody 237 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 1: walking behind the staff house. I was like, what the hell? 238 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: And then somebody scratched on the window screen. I yelled, 239 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, who's who's there? Because I was still 240 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: thinking it could remotely be somebody just trying to scare me, 241 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: you know, and ha ha, you did, so it's time 242 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: to to come out and laugh at me. But it didn't. 243 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 1: That didn't happen. They knew things were being stolen, They 244 00:17:55,400 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: had signals that there was someone there intruding, encroaching in 245 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 1: the camp. They felt afraid, but yet no flag of 246 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: alarm was raised. Okay, I can understand it so far, 247 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: but listen to this. We got into our tent. The 248 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: tent was just in disarray, this stuff everywhere, and clearly 249 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: our things had been gone through, right, So we were like, 250 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 1: what the heck? And I remembered that my mom had 251 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: bought me a big box of Postess donuts, and I 252 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: saw the donut box setting to the side of the trail. 253 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: All the donuts were gone, but inside the box was 254 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: a note and it was you know those little bitty 255 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: memo pads that reporters off days, So it was like 256 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: four or five pages of that had been ripped off. 257 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 1: The paper was dirty, like it had been carried around 258 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: and on this front one it was a really big letters. 259 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: It was this funky kid with loose and on the 260 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: front page is said kill kill, And then there's a 261 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: bunch of scribble on the second or third pages. To 262 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 1: know occasionally we say, god, you know, just a scribble. 263 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: And on the last page I said, we're on a 264 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:30,959 Speaker 1: mission to kill three girls. What we don't account for 265 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 1: are the monsters. We don't expect them even today, we 266 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 1: don't expect them. The feelings of fear, things being stolen, 267 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: slashes intents, which is a big no no. If you're 268 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 1: a veteran camper, you never ever harmed somebody else's tent 269 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,239 Speaker 1: in that way. And then this note that shows up, 270 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: We're on a mission to kill three girls. James Powell 271 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: with Oklahoma Bureau of Investigations. If as a camp counts 272 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 1: or which I was in a national forest, if I 273 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: had gotten a note our mission is to kill three 274 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: girls and I'm at a girl Scout camp, Oh yeah, 275 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 1: that would have closed down the camp and everybody would 276 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: have gone home right then until that note had been investigated. Well, 277 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: I don't think we'll ever really know the answer to that. 278 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 1: The only not going to offer is a lot of 279 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: the counselors were probably not a whole lot older than 280 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: some of the students that were there. Some of the 281 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: md they were pretty young. You're right. A lot of 282 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: them were chained themselves. You're right. Mind. Oh wait a minute, 283 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: Wait a minute, hold on what fate. I'm so sorry 284 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: to speak over you, Detective Powell, but I would like 285 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: to hop in here and talk about some of the 286 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: things we have going on. So a lot of this 287 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: information I was born the year after the crime happened, 288 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: so and the way I got a lot of this 289 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: information was I approached every party with non judgment and 290 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: just allowed them to tell their story, and so all 291 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: of these pieces of the puzzle started coming together. In hindsight, 292 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: I was able to see the big picture, which was 293 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: there were multiple incidents of stalking leading up to the murders, 294 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: including that kill note. But in the days after the 295 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: murders and all the way up through the trial and 296 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: after the trial, there was those things were dismissed. So 297 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: one of the things that was dismissed about that kill 298 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: note was that there was a boy scout camp on 299 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 1: the other side of the highway, and so they were 300 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: able to dismiss this as a teenage prank. But when 301 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: I saw it in hindsight and I was able to 302 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: look at that and say, I see, there's a note 303 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: that says we are on a mission to kill three 304 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: girl scouts, and that happens before the murders, and then 305 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 1: that's exactly what happened. In my mind, there's no way 306 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 1: you can dismiss that as a teenage prank. Say how 307 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 1: old were the counts for us? We have a range 308 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: of counselors from fifteen up to eighteen and nineteen. We 309 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 1: have very very young, inexperienced women. So James Powell, you're 310 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 1: absolutely correct. You've got Team Camp counselors. And I can 311 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 1: see what Fate Philip says as explaining why it was 312 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: discounted as a hoax. One of the shortcomings, I would 313 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 1: say is that the authorities had not notified everybody in 314 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: the area that they've got a sex offender on the loose. 315 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: I mean, if you put that in light of the 316 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: fact that there's a sex offender running around that area, 317 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: it puts it in a very different line. You're right, Sean, 318 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: that's doctor Robertson speaking. Guys. They managed to get Jane Hart. 319 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: Take a listen to what happened at the preliminary hearing. 320 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: At the preliminary hearing, the prosecution presents a number of 321 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: pieces of evidence that they say connect Jean Heart to 322 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: the murders, and which the judge admits into trial. Among 323 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: them our items authorities said we're found in the cave 324 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 1: were Hearts supposedly hit out after the murders. The first 325 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: of which our professional photographs of women. The photographer that 326 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,360 Speaker 1: Jean Hern had worked with at Granted State Prison confirmed 327 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: that he had developed those photos with Gene Hart when 328 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: he was an assistant while he was working in jail. 329 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,959 Speaker 1: Prosecutors also claimed that sperm found on a pillowcase at 330 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: the crime scene matched sperm found on Jean's underwear from prison, 331 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 1: and that hairs found on the duct tape but the 332 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: crime scene were tested and determined to be from a 333 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: Native American. But what does that actually name? Joe Scott Morgan, 334 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: you're the forensics expert. They were not using DNA at 335 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: this time, but they matched sperm found at the crime 336 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: scene where the three little girls were murtyred to sperm 337 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 1: found on Jean's underwear in prison. Isn't that enough? Back then? 338 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 1: It was. It predates obviously predate DNA technology. But the 339 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: one thing they had gone for them in this particular 340 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: case is the fact that hart was what it is 341 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: referred to as a secret. So when you think about saliva, 342 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 1: you think about semen, for instance, what you will have 343 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: are red blood cells that will show up. It's only 344 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: a very small percentage of the population. You know what 345 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 1: You're gonna have to dummy down. Are you trying to 346 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: say in scientific talk that there was a blood type match? Well, 347 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: there was, and what makes it significant is the fact 348 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: that they were able to blood type match that to 349 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: an individual that actually has this feature physiologically where they 350 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: secrete these blood cells into these various fluids in their body, 351 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: and so that narrows your funnels it down. It is 352 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: all pointed back to you know, So you're saying the 353 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: most that they could show from the semen is it 354 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: is gene Heart's blood type, which is like to a 355 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 1: thirty percent of the population, and it is an American Indian. 356 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: That's what we can show. The hair here, Yeah, that 357 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: shows season American Indian. I mean, when you get a 358 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: hair sample and you don't have DNA, you can say 359 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: it's a white person, it's a black person, it's an 360 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,479 Speaker 1: Asian person. I think you can say whether it's an 361 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: Hispanic person, I'm not sure about that, or an American Indian. 362 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: You can tell that from here. But it's not DNA. 363 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: So now what am I looking at it? I'm not 364 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: I don't have that much. Oh you know, you don't. 365 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: You don't have that much at that particular talent. But Nancy, 366 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: that's that's what they had to work with at that 367 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 1: particular You're right, I mean, but you put that in 368 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: conjunction with him living in a cave one mile away. 369 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: I don't know if they even try to do a 370 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: handwriting analysis on that note. And then hiding out, hiding 371 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: out if you didn't do anything wrong, why are you 372 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 1: hiding out in a remote cabin? Okay, take a listen 373 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,199 Speaker 1: to more. You'd have to live there to understand the 374 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: dynamics between the Cherokee Nation and local law enforcement. At 375 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 1: the time, it split the community into two sides. Gene 376 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: Heart was a local. A lot of citizens of the 377 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: Cherokee Nation, as well as some of the folks in 378 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: Cherokee County in May's County, thought Heart did not do it. 379 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: It seems patently obvious that Heart was a violent individual 380 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: based on the crimes that he committed previously. But if 381 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: you're a Cherokee living here, there's an established history of 382 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: the state acting sometimes as judge, jury, and executioner. Sometimes 383 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: the state lied, sometimes the state framed people, and sometimes 384 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: the state manufactured evidence. So it really wasn't that much 385 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 1: of a stretch for Cherokees to believe that perhaps the 386 00:26:43,720 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: state had framed Geneart crime story with Nancy Grace, let 387 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: me go to Fate Phillips, Cherokee screenwriter intimately familiar with 388 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: this case. Isn't it true that US and state local 389 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:17,439 Speaker 1: governments have no jurisdiction in Indian reservations? Is that true? 390 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 1: That is true? That was a landmark Supreme Court decision. Okay, 391 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: so we don't have any federal, state, or local law 392 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:30,959 Speaker 1: enforcement framing anybody on an Indian reservation because even if 393 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: they know about crimes happening on an Indian reservation, there's 394 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: nothing they can do about it because they don't have jurisdiction. Right, 395 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 1: the federal government does have concurrent jurisdiction in the tribal nations, 396 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,679 Speaker 1: but this wasn't determined until twenty twenty so at the 397 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: time this crime occurred, the only party to prosecute crimes 398 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: here in this area would have been the state and 399 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: local governments. So let me ask you what you believe 400 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 1: there have been a history of American Indians getting from 401 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: my law enforcement. Well, there's absolutely a kind of and 402 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: there's absolutely an established history of injustice towards the Cherokee people. 403 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: I can't speak for all Cherokee people. I can only 404 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: speak for myself, but we're patently aware of the removal 405 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: that happened on the Trail of Tears, and so then 406 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: we came here. Why are you actually going to bring 407 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: in the Trail of Tears as a reason to believe 408 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: that Heart didn't commit triple murder? No, no, I think 409 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 1: it's an important factor and a number of other events 410 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: that have happened in addition to so, on the actual 411 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: day of the murder, we have the local sheriff walking 412 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: up to the crime scene before he ever looks at anything. 413 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: We have multiple witnesses hearing him say looks like Jeane 414 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: Heart did this. Then we also have people who testify 415 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: saying that the sheriff's instructions were to shoot Jean Heart 416 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: on site. So you have to understand. These are the 417 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: things that the community is hearing because people people have 418 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: witnessed it themselves and they're taught, and so you have 419 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: this established history of where the state had acted as 420 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: judgarian executioner, and so it's not that hard to believe 421 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: for Cherokee people who are intimately familiar with our history. 422 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: Does that excuse harboring someone that you think that you 423 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: think could possibly have murdered these three girls. Absolutely not. 424 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: But I think it's an important thing for people to 425 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: understand and a part of the story that's never been 426 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: told before. Well, let me jump in here too. And 427 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: I seemed to always try and get ahead. But there 428 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: was evidence to prove that Hart didn't do it as well. 429 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: There was a bloody footprint on the floor of the 430 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: tent that wasn't his. There was a fingerprint on the 431 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: flashlight they found it the same that wasn't his. Oh, 432 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 1: so it wasn't as though this was an open and 433 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: chuck case against against Jean le Roy hard Well, corroborating 434 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: everything you just heard. Can't fight us, say, listen to this. 435 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: It's very important to understand this trial was before DNA 436 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: had not become a tool that could be used either 437 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: to prove innocent or guilt. There were hairs found on 438 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: the duct tape that the girls had been bound up 439 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: with that was what was described as a Native American hair. 440 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,719 Speaker 1: They used that to try and implicate Hard because of 441 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 1: course he was a Cherokee. That was not good science 442 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: to believe that Eric could be matched, though DNA testing 443 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: is not yet available. The prosecution also claims that sperm 444 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: samples taken from Jane Hart's underwear were similar to the 445 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: sperm found in one of the girls. There was important 446 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: evidence on the scene which tended to exonerate Hard. There 447 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: was a bloody footprint on the four of the ten, 448 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 1: and it was not harsh footprint. It was a wrong sonce. 449 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: There was a thumb print found along the flashore and 450 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: it was not hard. So there was exonerating evidence found 451 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: there as well as evidence then implicated it. There was 452 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: things there that leads you to believe that someone else 453 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: either involved or did the crowd The case hads to 454 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: trial listen. The entire trial spans eleven emotional days, but 455 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: the all white Jerry spends just five hours deliberating before 456 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: making their decision. The Oklahoma State Uro of Investigation was 457 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 1: shocked when the verdiere was read that their work was 458 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: not sufficient enough to get him convicted. Jurors make it 459 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: clear that the shoe size and thumb the do not 460 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: match gene Hart is a major factor in their decision 461 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: to acquit to fate. Phillips joining us, are you surprised 462 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: at all by the acquittal. I'm not surprised at all, 463 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: particularly considering the evidence that I found in the pre 464 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: trial when I was going through everything that had been presented. 465 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: The standard is beyond a reasonable doubt, and there's no 466 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: doubt that these twelve jurors looked at everything that the 467 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: state presented, and if they were doing their job, which 468 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: I believe they did, they had to come to the 469 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,719 Speaker 1: conclusion that the state did not meet it's a burden. 470 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: What do you make of that, James Powell? I would 471 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: tend to agree with that that the state didn't meet 472 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: its burden. There were I don't know how much detail 473 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,239 Speaker 1: you want to go into, but there were a lot 474 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: of factors that resulted in that verdict, at least from 475 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: what my investigation has shown. There was some testimony by 476 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: some of the state's witnesses that the jury found that 477 00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: they felt they didn't believe. Specifically, there was a photograph 478 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: that was taken at the time of the gene Heart's 479 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: arrest where several of the agents were depicted in a photograph, 480 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: either standing with him or just walking him out of 481 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 1: the cabin. One of the witnesses was asked about that photograph, 482 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: and the witness denied ever that photograph ever being taken. 483 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: But it was my understanding that at the same time 484 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: the jury already had copies of those photographs, so they 485 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: felt that if the witness was not truthful about that, 486 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: what else were they not being truthful about. Okay, to me, 487 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: that's irrelevant, but I do see what you mean. Did 488 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: the witness say that wasn't him? They said there was 489 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: no such photographs they were taken. Okay, Well, possibly the 490 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: witness didn't know the photograph was taken. No, he would 491 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: have known. This is in the photograph. Basically, what happened 492 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: was an a l FBI agent perjured himself on the stand. 493 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: He's in the photograph and he's testifying to the jury 494 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: that there wasn't a photograph taken. Gotcha? Gotcha? Other than 495 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: the photograph evidence, James Powell, you believe the WoT it 496 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: was correct, Fate Phillips, you're not surprised at the verdict 497 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: to you just got more What do you think you 498 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: are often to say, Nancy that you know you talk 499 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: about ling. Yes, you got to convince me. And so 500 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: if you think about this case and you think about 501 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: what they had at that moment, it's really hard for 502 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: the jury to get past that bit of as passionately 503 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,359 Speaker 1: as we want the jury to understand and maybe come 504 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: to a conclusion from across sentorial standpoint, from an evidential standpoint, 505 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: when you have a piece of ovans like this and 506 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 1: they fare witness, it's really hard to get over that 507 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 1: hurt too, can't Freda's joining Us, former minority leader in 508 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,800 Speaker 1: the Oklahoma House and author of Oklahoma's most notorious crimes. 509 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 1: I agree or disagree? Well, I agree that there was 510 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: reasonable doubt. Let me, I have a perspective on one 511 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: thing that nobody else does, and that is I was 512 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: able to talk to the judge before he died, and 513 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,879 Speaker 1: the judge did not blame the jury at all and 514 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: thought that there were that was not an unreasonable decision 515 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: under the evidence that was admitted. He also thought Jeane 516 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: Lee roy Hart was guilty and the reason he thought 517 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: he was guilty was because of some evidence that couldn't 518 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: be admitted, and that was evidence that would have put 519 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,839 Speaker 1: on a prior that would have shown that he had 520 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: committed prior crimes, which was properly excluded unless he took 521 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: the stand. What evidence is that, Well, I'm gonna tell 522 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:35,239 Speaker 1: you that's what it is. Is that one of these 523 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: little girls, at least one was tied with a chord 524 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: as well as with duct tape, and that chord was 525 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 1: tied in a very peculiar knot of some kind. And 526 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: it turned out that the two women that Heart kidnapped 527 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: and raped from Tulsa were tied up with that same knot. 528 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: And he thought that was unusual enough and to give 529 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,800 Speaker 1: and given the other circumstances, and that he thought Heart 530 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 1: was guilty. But once again, he said, once the evidence 531 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 1: was in, and there's there's all. It also should be 532 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 1: mentioned that the defense put on evidence that some of 533 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 1: the prosecutorial evidence was planned. Now, whether that was correct 534 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 1: or not, at least raised a doubt about it. Guys, 535 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,279 Speaker 1: take a listen to this. So my students decided that 536 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 1: they were going to research the Girl Scout murders for 537 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,919 Speaker 1: their podcast and I posted about it, and I got 538 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 1: this really kind of cryptic message that said, if you're 539 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: looking into the girls Scout murders, there's someone that you 540 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: really need to meet. And so I was curious but 541 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:57,360 Speaker 1: also a little freaked out. I had been contacted about 542 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 1: Paul Smith, who was the sheriff of May's count in 543 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,720 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty. He was elected after Pete Weaver left office. 544 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,880 Speaker 1: He was ninety seven years old, living in a retirement home, 545 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:09,839 Speaker 1: and he had some story he wanted to talk to 546 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:14,399 Speaker 1: me about it. I knew he was about to drop 547 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 1: some truth on me. I was not prepared though, for 548 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:22,240 Speaker 1: what I heard. It was one of the most extraordinary 549 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 1: stories I've ever heard, and still to this day it 550 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: still boggles my mind. I know, old say, what did 551 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: he tell you? Well, I went into that room and 552 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 1: considering myself someone who was familiar with the case, and 553 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: what he told me was the story that I had 554 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: never heard anywhere in the press or any in the community. 555 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: No one had ever said this story to me. And 556 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 1: he told me that he had obtained a confession from 557 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: someone who was ann pedophile and torture of animals in 558 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 1: the Locust Grove area, and that he had obtained a 559 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:05,240 Speaker 1: confession and an oral confession from this man, naming himself 560 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: and two other people that had committed the crime that night. 561 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,359 Speaker 1: We follow the very latest developments in the brand new 562 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,240 Speaker 1: Fox Nation series The Girls Scout Murders here on Crime 563 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,720 Speaker 1: Stories all week. Tomorrow, a very unlikely source reveals never 564 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: before seen evidence hidden in an ice chest for decades, 565 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: plus new suspects. We wait as justice unfolls. Crime Stories 566 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace signing off Good Life