Speaker 1: Hi, Brian, Hi Katie. So this week our conversation comes
Speaker 1: out of Austin, Texas, where we taped an episode at
Speaker 1: south By Southwest, the annual conference and festival held every
Speaker 1: year there. It was my first time at south By,
Speaker 1: as people in the know apparently call it, Brian, it
Speaker 1: was my first time too. It was very groovy and hipster,
Speaker 1: and people recognize me everywhere as the least cool person
Speaker 1: walking around. Maybe because you still use the word groovy, Brian,
Speaker 1: that could be a dead giveaway. Anyway, it's this very
Speaker 1: podcast that brought us to Austin. We take today's interview
Speaker 1: in front of a live audience at south By, which
Speaker 1: was really fun, and the taping was special for another
Speaker 1: reason to Katie, that's right, Brian, because it was aligned
Speaker 1: with my national geographic series called America Inside Out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: our guest today, we're both in the episode of your
Speaker 1: series called The Muslim next Door, which is out this week.
Speaker 1: It's really all about the challenges and opportunities that American
Speaker 1: Muslims are facing right now. That's right, Brian. For our podcast,
Speaker 1: we spoke with two of the people who are featured
Speaker 1: in this episode was Jahat Ali, who was a new
Speaker 1: York Times contributing up ed writer and has written for
Speaker 1: a number of publications. A very very smart guy and
Speaker 1: Emmy nominated producer Mona Haydar, who is a Syrian American activist, rapper,
Speaker 1: that's right, and scholar herself. And you should google Mona's
Speaker 1: music video which is called hijab Wrap My Hi Job.
Speaker 1: And I just read that in like the whitest way possible.
Speaker 1: Katie's very Katie's very addicted to it. Wrap my Job.
Speaker 1: I love it. Actually, it's a really yes. And at
Speaker 1: a time when a proposed travel band has the support
Speaker 1: of more than half the population, when President Trump has
Speaker 1: pondered asking Muslim Americans to register with the federal government,
Speaker 1: and when hate crimes against Muslim people in this country
Speaker 1: are at an all time high, well, let's just say
Speaker 1: we had a lot to talk about, that's right. I
Speaker 1: thought it was a very important and enlightening conversation, if
Speaker 1: I do say so myself, not because of me, but
Speaker 1: because of our guests, because of me, yes, because of you, Brian.
Speaker 1: But things got a teeny bit heated when Mona made
Speaker 1: some statements specifically about Louis farakon. Yeah, you should pay
Speaker 1: close attention when I asked Mona and Watch about Louis Farakon,
Speaker 1: who is, of course the longtime leader of the Nation
Speaker 1: of Islam, who's been in the news recently for his
Speaker 1: anti Semitic remarks. We're running out of time. I wish
Speaker 1: i'd actually push Mona a little more for refusing to
Speaker 1: condemn Farrakon's hate speech after attacking others earlier in the
Speaker 1: conversation for saying hateful stuff. It was very ironic, Brian,
Speaker 1: I agree, because I think you really can't have it
Speaker 1: both ways, and I think Wash expressed that sentiment quite well.
Speaker 1: But as always, we're curious what you think, so please
Speaker 1: call or right in with your feedback on this episode
Speaker 1: at nine two to four, four, six, three seven or
Speaker 1: comments at correct podcast dot com. And now to our
Speaker 1: conversation with Mona and Wash. Wash and I are like this.
Speaker 1: I now call him Wash instead of Wash. From the
Speaker 1: Halls of south By Southwest to watch Mona. I was
Speaker 1: going to give each of you a glowing introduction, but
Speaker 1: I just decided why bother with that? Why don't you
Speaker 1: introduce yourselves and let some people in the audience who
Speaker 1: may not know you as well get to know you
Speaker 1: a little bit better. Oh, ladies first, I guess um,
Speaker 1: you know, smash the patriarchy and ladies first. But so,
Speaker 1: my name is Mona Haydar. I am a poet turned rapper,
Speaker 1: mom of two beautiful baby boys. I grew up in Flint, Michigan.
Speaker 1: I live in New York currently. I am currently in
Speaker 1: my last semester hopefully of getting my masters in theology, um,
Speaker 1: specifically Christian social ethics. Ah. Yeah, I know, I'm a Muslim.
Speaker 1: Why am I doing that? But it's cool. That's that's
Speaker 1: good for now. Okay, wash, it makes me feel so inadequate,
Speaker 1: I don't wrap. Uh. First of all, thank you guys
Speaker 1: for coming this to the Muslim next door. I feel
Speaker 1: like this is depending on your politics, this is either
Speaker 1: the title of a horror movie or a romantic comedy.
Speaker 1: And so like, if Mona is the guests is the
Speaker 1: romantic comedy, I'm the Muslim next door, which be terrified.
Speaker 1: Protect Katie Couric at all costs, America's sweetheart from the
Speaker 1: Muslim next door. Uh. I was born and raised in
Speaker 1: fremontis Than, California, the Bay Area, anyone, the Bay Area, anyone? Yes?
Speaker 1: Thank you? H to Pakistani Muslim immigrant parents who thought'd
Speaker 1: be hilarious to name me Wajahat, and you know it
Speaker 1: was oftentimes. Growing up was like the token Muslim and
Speaker 1: token Pakistani, and I became like the Muslim friend of
Speaker 1: people right. And I went to an all boys Jesuit
Speaker 1: Catholic high school and every semester I got the highest
Speaker 1: grade in religious studies class. It was me colley On
Speaker 1: nilam rod to the Hindu and Navid Mustafavi the lapsed Persian,
Speaker 1: and father Alander used to read the grades in his heart,
Speaker 1: used to like just the Jesuit heart cracked little. But
Speaker 1: but even though I just want to say this, even
Speaker 1: though I grew up in America with e s L,
Speaker 1: I couldn't speak English until I was five, I ended
Speaker 1: up graduating with an English major from UC Berkeley. And
Speaker 1: even though yes, yes, thank you. And even though I
Speaker 1: was healthy growing up, and healthy is a euphemism for
Speaker 1: big boned, and big bone is a euphemism for fat,
Speaker 1: I was fat, uh, and I wore husky pants. I
Speaker 1: ended up marrying an extremely accomplished, extremely smart high school
Speaker 1: varsity cheerleaders. So hashtag it gets better uh. And now
Speaker 1: I'm sitting next to Katie current I'm a writer, I'm
Speaker 1: a tired dead of two and Pakistani immigrant uncles in
Speaker 1: my community. All the stuff I've done, They're like, none
Speaker 1: of it matters. You're talking to Katie. Court made it,
Speaker 1: so I made it. Everything else is downhill from now
Speaker 1: I've made it. I'm the door. Well, thank you guys
Speaker 1: for those quick bios. We're out of time. Thanks very
Speaker 1: much for comming. I'm just kidding, kidding, so we know
Speaker 1: we have no I'm not We have a lot, a
Speaker 1: lot to get to and first to be Dickensie and
Speaker 1: about it. These are the best of times. These are
Speaker 1: the worst of times for for being h for Muslims
Speaker 1: in this country. What words would you both use to
Speaker 1: describe what it's like to be Muslim in America today?
Speaker 1: Or is that question in and of itself problematic? Is
Speaker 1: that like saying what is it like to be a
Speaker 1: white Christian lady in America today? I think it's great
Speaker 1: depending on where you are, your social location, your economic location,
Speaker 1: you know, I think all of that plays into the question.
Speaker 1: But I think for a lot of Muslims in Middle America,
Speaker 1: Islamophobia is can be lethal, as we've seen uh in
Speaker 1: different parts of the country, and for some people, Islam
Speaker 1: is their break is the thing that sets them apart.
Speaker 1: Um like Hedima Aiden, who's doing amazing things on New
Speaker 1: York Runway. And I feel like for me, being very
Speaker 1: visible Muslim has done good things for me. Um. And
Speaker 1: I was wildly pregnant in my first music video, so
Speaker 1: wildly mold pregnant, any months pregnant. So you know, I
Speaker 1: think we're very visible. We're a very visible population. Um.
Speaker 1: We can be not always, but yeah, I think it
Speaker 1: depends on where you are exhausting and exciting, exhausting. Because
Speaker 1: I grew up. I was twenty years old when nine
Speaker 1: eleven happened. I was a senior at UC Brooklyn, and
Speaker 1: that's a pivotal shift for that generation, right, because there's
Speaker 1: always a PRENI eleven and post eleven and for the
Speaker 1: past seventeen years. Uh, it seems that based on the
Speaker 1: rules that we choose in life, I end up being
Speaker 1: this walking Muslim Wikipedia entry and a cultural ambassador for
Speaker 1: one point seven billion people in sixteen hundred years of Islam,
Speaker 1: years of Islamic civilization, and any time some violent extremists
Speaker 1: who I've never met does something in a country I've
Speaker 1: never visited. Our people's and our history is indicted, interrogated, investigated, questioned,
Speaker 1: and sentenced to buy a nameless judge during executioner that
Speaker 1: always holds our loyalty as suspect. And so you're always
Speaker 1: like a walking explainer on Islam and Kuran and Sharia
Speaker 1: and brock Kusan Obama who's not Muslim, but if he
Speaker 1: was Muslim, I wouldn't make a difference. Uh, And you know,
Speaker 1: like Hamas and Hamas, like everything right and and like
Speaker 1: everything like you have to know everything, and God forbid,
Speaker 1: if you make a mistake, you are personally not indicted.
Speaker 1: The entire collection of something called Muslims is indicted or
Speaker 1: something called is Islam. And then they always ask you
Speaker 1: why does is Islam hate the West? And then when
Speaker 1: I go to Muslim countries, ask why does the West
Speaker 1: hate Islam? And I'm like, who is Islam and who's
Speaker 1: the West? And how come I've never met either of them?
Speaker 1: And it's also exciting because I joke and you have
Speaker 1: to have some dark humor. It's like choose your own adventure,
Speaker 1: especially with Trump. Right, you might wake up and next
Speaker 1: day you'll be in the Muslim camps and you hope
Speaker 1: there's WiFi, or you might wake up and Mona's you know,
Speaker 1: rapping with her, you know, extremely pregnant, or just say
Speaker 1: wildly pregnant belly right, And so a crisis presents an opportunity.
Speaker 1: You're seeing Americans say, wait a second, this islamophobia thing
Speaker 1: is real. Oh, Muslims have been here for four hundred years.
Speaker 1: Oh why don't you guys step up and be the
Speaker 1: protagonist of this narrative and we'll follow your lead. And
Speaker 1: that's exciting, and we're gonna cover President Trump in a
Speaker 1: little bit. But speaking of a walking explainer of Islam,
Speaker 1: you set up a booth mona sometimes with a sign
Speaker 1: that says, ask a Muslim, what are the sorts of
Speaker 1: questions you get and the answers you give? Can you
Speaker 1: give us a few highlights? Yeah? Sure. I mean it's
Speaker 1: really fascinating when we when we go out on the
Speaker 1: streets and we do this, UM, people come to us.
Speaker 1: I think it's a social experiment of vulnerability. UM is
Speaker 1: what it really is. People really just want to connect.
Speaker 1: And so people would come with often authentic curiosity and vulnerability,
Speaker 1: and they would open their hearts and they would say,
Speaker 1: I feel really ignorant. I don't know, like do you
Speaker 1: wear that when you sleep? Or like did your dad
Speaker 1: force you to wear that? Or are you actually like
Speaker 1: a free woman? You know? Do you need my help?
Speaker 1: Should I save you from that white guy who maybe
Speaker 1: it's your husband, maybe is like a lurking hipster? Like
Speaker 1: should do you need do you need help? Can I
Speaker 1: liberate you? You know? Um? And so folks came with
Speaker 1: a lot of different things, but I feel like when
Speaker 1: people came with authentic curiosity and vulnerability, it always transcended
Speaker 1: that awkwardness and it always moved into the space of like, wow,
Speaker 1: like we're just two people kind of opening our hearts
Speaker 1: to each other. And I found, to be honest that
Speaker 1: when I was really present with folks, when I was
Speaker 1: really open and listening and really present to them, um,
Speaker 1: we could really quickly transcend what they may be called
Speaker 1: their ignorance because it was really hearts meeting. And at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, that's that's all. We really
Speaker 1: need to heal a lot of the wounds that I
Speaker 1: feel like this country and a lot of the world
Speaker 1: are dealing with, you know, and wash, what do you
Speaker 1: think are the some of the biggest misconceptions about Muslims,
Speaker 1: even among educated people, I mean the educated liberals and
Speaker 1: the lurking hipsters. I'll give you top five. Where are
Speaker 1: the moderate Muslims? And how come they haven't condemned terrorism?
Speaker 1: Is isis al Qaida, Bocoham or al Shabab representative of
Speaker 1: traditional Islam some combination of those two. Number three, are
Speaker 1: you guys commanded to do violent jahad against the infidels?
Speaker 1: Number four? Are you trying to implement sharia across America?
Speaker 1: Number five? Why do you hate and oppress your women?
Speaker 1: And bonus the Jews? Why do you hate them? So
Speaker 1: those are the six misconceptions, and in those misconceptions are
Speaker 1: the assumptions that, apparently, when someone asked the question where
Speaker 1: are the moderate Muslims? It's such a troubling question because
Speaker 1: the assumption is there's no such thing as a moderate Muslim,
Speaker 1: any practicing Muslim by virtue of being a because the
Speaker 1: Muslim is somehow radical, anti Western, anti American. You know,
Speaker 1: it's so funny. On the airplane on the way here
Speaker 1: today this morning, um, a very lovely woman was sitting
Speaker 1: next to me, and she asked me, why aren't more
Speaker 1: Muslim speaking out against these violent extremists, and I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm doing everything I can. You know, like, it's not
Speaker 1: my problem and it's not my job to to address
Speaker 1: that question. It's not my job to like convince the
Speaker 1: whole world that I'm not violent, that I am a
Speaker 1: normal mom, potty training my child, like trying to finish
Speaker 1: my master's degree, you know, like it's not my job
Speaker 1: to educate the masses about me what what is My
Speaker 1: job is to be an authentic human being. But the
Speaker 1: burden also falls right because they've been doing the study
Speaker 1: for the past seven years. Americans say they don't know
Speaker 1: Muslim and when you say, listen, man, I'm your Muslim friend,
Speaker 1: they go, oh yeah, oh yeah you, but not I
Speaker 1: was thinking thinking about And I'm like, you're not the
Speaker 1: right kind of Muslim. You're thinking about Osama or Saddam
Speaker 1: or Ayatola. So the image of Islam is something foreign.
Speaker 1: So that when a well intentioned person and I'm sure
Speaker 1: she was really nice and sweet and pleasant, yes, says
Speaker 1: that to Mona. In her mindset, the Muslim is not
Speaker 1: her or me, the Muslim next door. It's uh An
Speaker 1: isis recruit. But you talk about when we sat down together,
Speaker 1: watch about sort of the expectation there's there be a
Speaker 1: condemned the thon on the part of so called moderate Muslims,
Speaker 1: and how unfair that is in terms of expecting a reaction,
Speaker 1: expecting you to go on television every time there's an
Speaker 1: event and speak out. Yeah, it's so for this, it's
Speaker 1: like a double standard for people to really experience this. Uh.
Speaker 1: Muslim guy in New York October thirty one, Uzbek national
Speaker 1: takes a car, rams through a crowd, kills people. Apparently
Speaker 1: he yells a lahuag bar, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: the chiron and says man yells, allow hawkbar. Government investigating terrorism.
Speaker 1: Now everyone now allow hawkbar trands And everyone's like, where
Speaker 1: are the moderate Muslimism? Why aren't they condemning this? And
Speaker 1: where is your moderation? And there's a unique problem with
Speaker 1: the Islam. It's a unique threat and we need special
Speaker 1: counsels to investigate. In Charlottesville, a young white dude, UH,
Speaker 1: some very fine people uh in the summer too soon,
Speaker 1: my bad uh takes a car and deliberately rams it
Speaker 1: through a crowd and act of terrorism, killing a woman.
Speaker 1: Katie and Brian, I do not think that you were asked,
Speaker 1: where are the moderate whites and how come they're not
Speaker 1: condemning white terrorism, white people. You're not doing enough to
Speaker 1: counter white supremacists and rental, radical anti government activists, white people.
Speaker 1: Where are your leaders? Now? Imagine if that burden was
Speaker 1: placed on you, and I'm assuming you guys would be like,
Speaker 1: I don't know those very fine people in Charlotte. I'm
Speaker 1: Katie mother Efin Kuric, what why are you asking me
Speaker 1: to do this? Right? And now imagine us the same
Speaker 1: thing happens. So it's the double standard that seeps into
Speaker 1: our media framing, which shapes our perceptions, which shapes the narratives,
Speaker 1: which shapes domestic and foreign policy, and it weaponizes Muslim
Speaker 1: for politicians to gain votes and get elected into office. Well,
Speaker 1: and to that point, it's it's interesting right wing extremist
Speaker 1: groups have been responsible for nearly white In fact, we
Speaker 1: should add white right wing white I think I said
Speaker 1: white wing. That was a Freudian slip. You said it,
Speaker 1: not us, Yeah, you said it. I'm proud. I want
Speaker 1: to use the hashtag quote him not us. I'll favored it.
Speaker 1: I know our moderate whites don't worry. Some of our
Speaker 1: best friends are whites moderate whites? Yeah, we love the whites.
Speaker 1: Everyone loves the whites. Anyway, Right wing extremist groups have
Speaker 1: been responsible for nearly three times the number of violent
Speaker 1: incidents as Muslim extremists since nine eleven, And yet that's
Speaker 1: clearly not the perception. Why is that? Or Just State
Speaker 1: University did an analysis exactly of that. When it comes
Speaker 1: to even though white supremacists and radical white what do
Speaker 1: you say white wing, white wing terrorists are response from
Speaker 1: the most domestic terror threats and attacks, There's four times
Speaker 1: as much media coverage when the suspect is wait for it,
Speaker 1: Muslim in newspapers. And I'll give you an example Stephen
Speaker 1: Paddock October was in October when from the Mandalay Bay
Speaker 1: fiftieth floor shot and killed more than almost fifty people
Speaker 1: right Las Vegas. What was the media framing lone wolf
Speaker 1: mental health problems? A quiet man who would have thought, uh,
Speaker 1: Pola Pov does it? Uzbek national we need to end
Speaker 1: diversity lottery program And this goes back and I won't
Speaker 1: get into it, katiecause terrorists it's it's it becomes yeah,
Speaker 1: who's a terrorist? It becomes a meaningless term now, especially
Speaker 1: after nine eleven because Stephen Paddock does it lone wolf,
Speaker 1: the guy in shaw Olsville does it lone wolf, Muslim
Speaker 1: does it or black man does it? Immediately the framing
Speaker 1: is what terrorist, which changes the law enforcement response, the
Speaker 1: media response, and the political response. And there's just some
Speaker 1: angry white guys, you know. But it's particular for Muslims
Speaker 1: even more than African Americans. Wouldn't you say, I don't
Speaker 1: think the word terrorist is automatically used. Muslim and black
Speaker 1: are not mutually exclusive, right exactly, But still I think
Speaker 1: when it is a Muslim name, a Muslim sounding name,
Speaker 1: then I think they're very very quick to term it
Speaker 1: a terrorist act, right wash. We have to draw the
Speaker 1: parallels because it draws upon the history of terrorisming black
Speaker 1: men and women in this country, and black was synonymous
Speaker 1: and oftentimes is with Chicago violence. That's another code word
Speaker 1: that Trump uses, right, savage, the enemy, the other it's
Speaker 1: all other rising language. And so that same type of
Speaker 1: otherizing language that was used against black people latinos m
Speaker 1: s thirt and remember that that's gonna be a sexy
Speaker 1: one going to uh Japanese Americans in World War two. Now,
Speaker 1: taggre it it's the Muslim and the tag that hits
Speaker 1: Muslims in particular is terrorism. Whiteness or white supremacy in
Speaker 1: particular is given a pass, whereas Muslim or Blackness, i
Speaker 1: would say, is always examined and the entire people who
Speaker 1: represent Muslims or blackness are interrogated. We're going to take
Speaker 1: a quick break. We'll be back with our conversation from
Speaker 1: south By Southwest with wasajahat Ali and Mona Haydar. I
Speaker 1: want to thank our listeners who called or wrote in
Speaker 1: with their reflections for this week's episode, and I'd like
Speaker 1: to share a couple of the messages we got to start.
Speaker 1: Let's listen to a voicemail. Hi. My name is Kathy,
Speaker 1: and I did not have a lot of familiarity with Muslims.
Speaker 1: Um in high school, there were some and it was
Speaker 1: during the Iran contra trials and people were getting spit
Speaker 1: on and I would I would go to teachers because
Speaker 1: I would see that happening in the hallway and that
Speaker 1: was disturbing. Fast Foredom. And now a school teacher in California,
Speaker 1: and I have a number of Muslim students and they're
Speaker 1: just great families and kids, and I just feel badly, because,
Speaker 1: for instance, on Facebook, a friend will post something about
Speaker 1: all Muslims and I have to say, you know, that's
Speaker 1: just not true. I work with these kids and these families,
Speaker 1: and they'll say, well, we're not talking about them, We're
Speaker 1: talking about the terrorists. And I think, you know, it's
Speaker 1: like when people say things about right wing Christians evangelicals,
Speaker 1: and I think, no, you know, you're making a mass
Speaker 1: statement for a very select group of people. Both are
Speaker 1: terrorists on either extremes. You know, someone I mean an
Speaker 1: abortion clinic versus someone doing a you know, a suicide
Speaker 1: and killing people. If they're Muslim, they're they're terrorists. And
Speaker 1: I just think when you get to know people and
Speaker 1: you can build those bridges, it helps. And you know,
Speaker 1: I asked questions because I don't know, and and it's
Speaker 1: very wide umbrella and there Muslim just like with Christianity. Anyway,
Speaker 1: those are my thoughts and I'm still a learner and
Speaker 1: I'm now fifty four year years old. Um, but thank
Speaker 1: you for doing this series. I really appreciate it. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you for calling Kathy. I think we're all lifetime learners.
Speaker 1: I feel that way, and we all have to continue
Speaker 1: to ask questions and seek the truth. And your high
Speaker 1: school memories of people spitting at Muslim students, obviously that's
Speaker 1: something that stayed with you that sounds horrible. And also
Speaker 1: the point you make that white extremists commit acts of
Speaker 1: domestic terrorists, um and actually they do so, according to studies,
Speaker 1: three times more often than Muslim extremists. But when Muslim
Speaker 1: extremists commit a terrorist act here in this country, it gets,
Speaker 1: according to a study by Georgia State University, four and
Speaker 1: a half times the media coverage, or at least newspaper coverage.
Speaker 1: So I think the way uh these events are conveyed
Speaker 1: to us and conveyed to us as Americans in general,
Speaker 1: really shape our views and often feed into negative impressions
Speaker 1: of Muslim Americans that are simply completely unfair. Next, a
Speaker 1: listener named Mary Gubrud wrote to us from Cedar Falls, Iowa. Mary,
Speaker 1: thank you for that. She told us that a little
Speaker 1: over a year ago, some women from her church she's
Speaker 1: a Lutheran, decided to get together with women from a
Speaker 1: local mosque, And this is what Mary wrote to us.
Speaker 1: We began simply, we shared food that was acceptable to
Speaker 1: both religions for a meal and then began to get
Speaker 1: to know each other as women, mothers, sisters, and daughters.
Speaker 1: Building on those common threads, we form friendships and then
Speaker 1: began to learn and understand each other's faith. This group
Speaker 1: has grown in the past year to include women from
Speaker 1: a number of churches, the mosque as well as the
Speaker 1: local synagogue. We meet monthly, sometimes at a church, sometimes
Speaker 1: at the mosque, or sometimes at the synagogue. We share
Speaker 1: a vegetarian meal, potluck style. She said. We are Midwesterners,
Speaker 1: you know, and then have time where we learn from
Speaker 1: each other or explore common issues. Mary, your letter, your
Speaker 1: email makes me want to cry. You add, my life
Speaker 1: is richer for the Muslim women I now call friends,
Speaker 1: and this has allowed me to tell others where their
Speaker 1: misconceptions of that faith are incorrect. I think, obviously, this
Speaker 1: is what it's all about, spending time with people who
Speaker 1: are different than we are, seeing them for what they are,
Speaker 1: mother's daughters, sisters, people who want the best for their family,
Speaker 1: and learning from each there. And Mary, I think you're
Speaker 1: an object lesson in my whole goal for this series
Speaker 1: America Inside Out, to get to know each other, to
Speaker 1: get out of our comfort zone, and to learn from
Speaker 1: one another. So thank you so much for writing and uh,
Speaker 1: I'm very moved by what you said. Coming up, by
Speaker 1: the way, in my series Fernaccio, I'll be exploring white
Speaker 1: working class anxiety now. Over the past several months, I've
Speaker 1: spent time in communities like Johnstown, Pennsylvania, Fremont, Nebraska, Erie, Pennsylvania,
Speaker 1: Storm Lake, Iowa. These are places that have lived through
Speaker 1: massive demographic, technological, and economic changes. So I'm hoping to
Speaker 1: hear from some of our listeners in rural areas or
Speaker 1: in the rust belt. What is life like where you live?
Speaker 1: How has your community changed in recent decades. I'm thinking
Speaker 1: here about factories closing, the opioid epidemic, or the so
Speaker 1: called deaths of despair, and battles over immigration. Have these
Speaker 1: issues affected your community or even shaped your politics or
Speaker 1: your outlook? So give us a call to weigh in
Speaker 1: at nine to nine to four, four, six, three seven
Speaker 1: in a pupil of Muslims say Donald Trump makes me
Speaker 1: feel worried. According to the FBI, hate crimes reported toward
Speaker 1: Muslims increased between two thousand, fifteen and sixteen. What role
Speaker 1: do you think President Trump has played in all this? Like,
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know. I'm not a political talking head, right,
Speaker 1: like I'm a rapper. Um So, even like I don't know,
Speaker 1: I feel like we expect a lot of Muslims, like
Speaker 1: the lady on the airplane really expected me to be
Speaker 1: able to comment on Afghanistan and what's happening in Ida
Speaker 1: and Isis and all that stuff. But as somebody who
Speaker 1: experiences his comments, just curse for you and how that
Speaker 1: translates into two negative feelings for other people. I mean
Speaker 1: from your own personal perspective. Yeah, I can talk about
Speaker 1: the way Donald Trump hits me, and it's just kind
Speaker 1: of gut wrenching and destabilizing of of a feeling of
Speaker 1: safety and security. Um as a as a young girl
Speaker 1: growing up, I feel like I knew my family was different, right,
Speaker 1: And then when nine eleven happened, Um, it was this
Speaker 1: really big shift. It was this moment, this like real
Speaker 1: in breath and like I could feel everybody holding their
Speaker 1: breath because it was like the facade is gone, the
Speaker 1: masks have been ripped off. And that was a real
Speaker 1: pivoting moment for a lot of Muslims in America to
Speaker 1: understand the intensity of xenophobia of the rhetoric of someone
Speaker 1: like Trump, of those really deeply seated beliefs that exist
Speaker 1: which stem I mean, this is why I'm doing my
Speaker 1: masters in Christian ethics UM, because they stem from a
Speaker 1: theological place white supremacy. You know, if you read the
Speaker 1: Founding Fathers, UM, a lot of it stems from what's
Speaker 1: called Saxonism. It stems from this really theological space of like,
Speaker 1: we are superior, we are better, and thus we must
Speaker 1: protect We must um, you know, enclose, we must guard
Speaker 1: UM because otherwise it will be dirtied, it will be sullied,
Speaker 1: it would it will be muddled UM. And for me,
Speaker 1: somebody who really believes in the beauty of all people,
Speaker 1: of all ways, of all paths, of all wisdom UM,
Speaker 1: I think it's it's it's traumatic to see how UM
Speaker 1: really ideology can be weaponized. I want to kind of
Speaker 1: live in my artistic Laala land and believe that the
Speaker 1: world is so beautiful and like that we're just we're
Speaker 1: on our way to this more beautiful world. And it
Speaker 1: kind of just breaks my heart, you know, to see
Speaker 1: somebody who is intent and hell bent on dividing UM
Speaker 1: instead of uniting, which I feel like it's so fulfilling
Speaker 1: and joyful, you know, like I want that joy for everyone.
Speaker 1: You know. Watch, what role do you think the president
Speaker 1: has played in all of this and the rise of
Speaker 1: hate crimes and furthering Muslims liberal media? Come on now,
Speaker 1: I'm just kidding. Uh. President Trump has essentially weaponized what
Speaker 1: was already there for several decades, this deep fear and
Speaker 1: mistrust of not just Muslims, but people of color in general.
Speaker 1: If you look at all the stats and surveys that
Speaker 1: have come out now a year and a hal after
Speaker 1: the election, and people of color journalists like myself who
Speaker 1: followed the campaign trail would tell you this. It was
Speaker 1: primarily racial anxiety that motivated a lot of Trump space.
Speaker 1: If you look at the thirty second ad that Donald
Speaker 1: Trump dropped for his campaign, it only focused on two issues,
Speaker 1: a lot of Mexicans crossing the border and the Muslim man.
Speaker 1: But there weren't really Mexicans. It was a shot of Moroccans.
Speaker 1: But hey, who cares? Nuances um and the use of fear, hate,
Speaker 1: and anger, especially against a minority. This mozele tough cocktail
Speaker 1: and throwing it and saying thank you, thank you, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you, Yeah, thank you, Uh, that's nothing new. It's
Speaker 1: been using politics throughout both in America and abroad. And well,
Speaker 1: and we should say that isn't a purely partisan common
Speaker 1: because President Bush after nine eleven made a large point
Speaker 1: a real effort not to stigmatize Islam is not the problem.
Speaker 1: Muslims are part of our fabric. He made two speeches.
Speaker 1: And the sad irony is sixteen years later, if George W.
Speaker 1: Bush was to run as a Republican presidential nominee, he
Speaker 1: would not get the ticket because he'd be seen as
Speaker 1: a Muslim lover right, And so President Trump what he
Speaker 1: did was these existing me is that we're on the fringe.
Speaker 1: Just seven years ago, he realized, Hey, it seems my
Speaker 1: base loves it. I'm getting more votes, They're coming to
Speaker 1: my rallies. Let's go after the Mexicans. He descended the
Speaker 1: Golden Staircase, and he said, we gotta stop and protect
Speaker 1: ourselves from Mexican rapists and criminals. And then he said, ah,
Speaker 1: the Muslim thing, I'm getting more mileage out of it.
Speaker 1: Let's do it. And now it's mainstreamed to the point
Speaker 1: where when I was growing up, the worst thing I
Speaker 1: was called was Gandhi, which is a compliment. I mean
Speaker 1: I used to tell like the bullies, I'm like, thank
Speaker 1: you for comparing me to a world leader who, along
Speaker 1: with millions of others, through off three d years of imperialism.
Speaker 1: And they're like, oh, you're fat. Uh you know, but
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm gonna get you in the end. But now,
Speaker 1: just to show you how it's personalized, there are parents
Speaker 1: who are scared and you know we have I have
Speaker 1: two cute babies. You've got two cute babies. This conversation
Speaker 1: is now mainstream and Muslim American circles people born and
Speaker 1: raised in America. I should give my kid a safe name.
Speaker 1: If I give him a MUSLIMI name, that will make
Speaker 1: him into our target. So maybe I should call him
Speaker 1: Ryan because white people will call him Ryan, or maybe Layla.
Speaker 1: White people like Layla. And this conversation now I heard
Speaker 1: like two years ago, and I'm like, wait a second, guys,
Speaker 1: We're self policing our kids names in the age of
Speaker 1: Trump to protect them even though they have done nothing wrong,
Speaker 1: and they're only marker of being a suspect will be
Speaker 1: their skin color and their Muslim identity. We always want
Speaker 1: to protect our kids. But the fact that most of
Speaker 1: the Americans have to think about this now in the
Speaker 1: age of Trump, just to bring it home, that's what's
Speaker 1: changed the landscape. You don't belong, you're not welcomed. Why
Speaker 1: because you will replace us, which is what they said
Speaker 1: in Charlts. And you know, of course, President Trump made
Speaker 1: a big deal about semantics and differed from President Obama
Speaker 1: in terms of wanting to call out radical Islamic terror,
Speaker 1: radical Islamic terrorism and um and and that is another
Speaker 1: way that Donald Trump has tried to bash Muslims in
Speaker 1: this country and put everyone in some big category. And
Speaker 1: why is that term so damaging in your view? And
Speaker 1: and and what kind of impact does that have around
Speaker 1: the world. Because of course the big argument is you
Speaker 1: cannot indict an entire faith, according to President Obama. But
Speaker 1: President Trump says it's fine. I mean, I don't know
Speaker 1: what to say. He's an asshole. Sorry, like I don't know,
Speaker 1: sorry for your podcast that you might have to believe that.
Speaker 1: I mean to play Devil's advocate for one second. His
Speaker 1: argument is you can't fix the problem until you identify it.
Speaker 1: And President Obama didn't have the courage and the straightforwardness
Speaker 1: to sort of call it what it is. And of
Speaker 1: course President Obama's argument is you are painting with a
Speaker 1: broad brush, and you're saying that. All President Bushes and
Speaker 1: President Bush's argument the same way. They would not use
Speaker 1: that phrase for a very particular reason. Um. But but
Speaker 1: what do you say to the Trump argument that you know,
Speaker 1: in order to fix this you first have to identify it. Well,
Speaker 1: I think it's fascinating because when it comes to violence,
Speaker 1: you know, violence against communities of color in this country,
Speaker 1: it's okay. You know, it's okay to like I was
Speaker 1: at Standing Rock, it's okay to use water cannons on
Speaker 1: Native people, Indigenous people. Um, it's okay to use tear gas. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that like, that's okay. It's okay to send drones to Pakistan.
Speaker 1: It's okay to you know, perform these kinds of violence.
Speaker 1: But um, when wounded people who come from colonized contacts
Speaker 1: with literally nothing to live for, which is why they
Speaker 1: are they're behaving in these violent ways. They have these
Speaker 1: deep wounds that need healing. No, we can't see them
Speaker 1: as people. But for us to perform this violence, like
Speaker 1: we're we're democratizing the world, we are doing it under
Speaker 1: the guys of globalization, like it's fine for us, like
Speaker 1: you know when when the money backs, it's like we
Speaker 1: there was just an arms deal with Saudi Arabia. What
Speaker 1: was it, like three billion dollars, Like that's okay for
Speaker 1: Saudi East to kill Yemeni's and to massacre them, like
Speaker 1: because there's money, they're right, So that's okay, But like
Speaker 1: some kinds of violence, you know, or not okay. And
Speaker 1: so again it comes back to the idea of the
Speaker 1: double standard, which I think it's like that Sweatshop Boys
Speaker 1: song if you're black or black, brown or black, Babylon
Speaker 1: has come for your head. You know, that's real double standard.
Speaker 1: Also when it comes to language, and we've been talking
Speaker 1: about language, but language, much like ideology, much like identity,
Speaker 1: much like history, also gets hijacked by extremists. Sebastian Gorka,
Speaker 1: good Ald Sebastian Gorka, who was in the White House
Speaker 1: until he wasn't a week before Charlottesville, said we we
Speaker 1: don't need to focus on white supremacy as a problem, right,
Speaker 1: and so language when it comes to the framing, Obama said,
Speaker 1: and same with the Bush. We all know what the
Speaker 1: problem is. We know it's ISIS. We know it's al Qaida,
Speaker 1: but there's similarities and they're violent extremists, so that was
Speaker 1: the term that was used. Or you can go ahead
Speaker 1: and say violent Muslim extremists, violent Christian extremists. By deliberately
Speaker 1: framing it as radical Islamic terrorism without any nuance, this
Speaker 1: type of framing is a ineffective, it doesn't work, and
Speaker 1: b it's counterproductive. It makes us less safe and actually
Speaker 1: gives ammunition to ISIS and al Qaida because the number
Speaker 1: one recruitment of ISIS and al Kaada is the following
Speaker 1: the West hates Islam. The West as at war with
Speaker 1: the Islam. And that's why I was on BBC News
Speaker 1: Hour when Trump became a candidate. I said, and this
Speaker 1: has actually proven that ISIS was actively rooting for Trump
Speaker 1: because he literally gives them their calling card to say, look,
Speaker 1: they hate you. He wants to do a Muslim man.
Speaker 1: In addition to the Iraq War and Afghanistan, he says
Speaker 1: Islam hates you. He's open to a registry. See oh,
Speaker 1: those recruits, those angry, dislocated individuals seeking purpose join us.
Speaker 1: So it's counterproductive, ineffective, it doesn't help anyone and I
Speaker 1: was at a Trump rally two weeks before the election
Speaker 1: in Maine. That's what I knew Who's gonna win. I
Speaker 1: was the only person of color, only journalist. Awesome and
Speaker 1: Rudy Giuliani came out and they didn't even like say sentences.
Speaker 1: He literally just said the wall, and then he said
Speaker 1: the wall and the bigger thing, and then he said
Speaker 1: radical Islamic terrorism, and then he repeated it and like
Speaker 1: it wasn't even sentences or complete thoughts or policies or
Speaker 1: just the words, and it framed the entire enemy as
Speaker 1: the wall is what protect against the Mexicans and immigrants
Speaker 1: and the muslim men, and radical Islamic terrorism is what
Speaker 1: all Muslims. But intolerance isn't only on the right. And
Speaker 1: I'm not drawing a moral it's a human condition. Equivalence, yes,
Speaker 1: Because you know, Louis Farrakhan is back in the news.
Speaker 1: He's the long time left wing Nation of Islam leader
Speaker 1: with a history of virulent anti Semitic comments, and he's
Speaker 1: been embraced by some liberal members of Congress who won't
Speaker 1: repudiate him and and or an is er of the
Speaker 1: Women's March. How should moderate Muslims moderate white, it's moderate.
Speaker 1: Anybody's deal with Ferricon at this moment. I agree with
Speaker 1: you that bigotry outright. You should have a consistent standard,
Speaker 1: not double standards. So if you're deeply and morally offended
Speaker 1: by anti Semitism, you should be deeply and morally offended
Speaker 1: by anti black racism. Should be deeply and morally offended
Speaker 1: by Slamophobia across the board. And I mean that across
Speaker 1: the board, because if you're not, then you're a hypocrite
Speaker 1: and you should be called out for the hypocrite that
Speaker 1: you are when it comes to the anti Semitism of
Speaker 1: Lewis Ferricon. First and foremost, I only represent myself, not
Speaker 1: one point seven billion people. I only represent the six
Speaker 1: moderate Muslims on Earth. Apparently. Uh, it's wrong. It should
Speaker 1: be condemned, period. It's wrong. Period. But number two to
Speaker 1: your question, why do people associate with the n O
Speaker 1: I Nation of Islam and Louis Ferricon. You have to
Speaker 1: know the history of America right and when it comes
Speaker 1: to black not just black Muslims, but black Americans. The
Speaker 1: n o Y for decades taught respect, uh, talked entrepreneurship
Speaker 1: within the black community, talked about protecting ourselves because the local,
Speaker 1: state and federal government abandoned Black communities. And when it
Speaker 1: came to Tamika Malory, one of the leaders of the
Speaker 1: Women's March, she lost her father at a young age,
Speaker 1: and she says openly, if it wasn't for the n
Speaker 1: Y community, I would be lost. They really helped me
Speaker 1: and so many other Black individuals because they were self reliant.
Speaker 1: They taught us to lift our head up, they taught
Speaker 1: to invest back in the community and so forth. So
Speaker 1: that's why these ties are so deep in the Black
Speaker 1: communities in America. And number three is double standards, double standards,
Speaker 1: double standards. Look, if we want all Muslims and black
Speaker 1: people to condemn the anti semitism Lewis farkon, fine, But
Speaker 1: then I want my moderate Whites and moderate Christians to
Speaker 1: stand up condemned the hateful comments of Jerry Foldwill JR.
Speaker 1: Franklin Graham, Donald Trump, and a lot of the other
Speaker 1: religious leaders who have said horribly time Muslim, anti Semitic,
Speaker 1: anti Black, and anti woman. That's just me as a
Speaker 1: modern Muslim. Yeah, I honestly would never say anything about
Speaker 1: someone who has dedicated his life to uplifting the black
Speaker 1: community until say anything, you wouldn't condemn his amit until
Speaker 1: black people receive reparations in this country. I really and
Speaker 1: honestly and truly believe that Um somebody who is doing
Speaker 1: his best to uplift his people, Like I have no
Speaker 1: place nitpicking and criticizing him and what he's doing. I
Speaker 1: don't agree with his positions. I don't agree with some
Speaker 1: of the things that he says, but he is trying
Speaker 1: to uplift his people, people who have been forgotten, abused, enslaved,
Speaker 1: and so I'm not It's not my job to condemn him.
Speaker 1: It's not my job to go out of my way
Speaker 1: to to speak on a topic where I'm not um
Speaker 1: a scholar, Right, all I am is a Muslim, and
Speaker 1: where I see injustice, I'm going to call it out
Speaker 1: and literally until black people receive reparations. It's not my place.
Speaker 1: Do you Rewelsh, Do you think that's not your job?
Speaker 1: I will, I will push back on that that Mona
Speaker 1: has her point, But like I think you can do
Speaker 1: both at the same time. You can say, Okay, this
Speaker 1: individual has uplifted the community, and there's a unique narrative
Speaker 1: with this community in America that you have to understand
Speaker 1: why they're black leaders who can't just say I'm going
Speaker 1: to completely condemn, then know why because they have done
Speaker 1: a lot of good. And at the same time, you
Speaker 1: can say, I condemn the hateful comments that Lewis Farrikon makes.
Speaker 1: It's just not anti Semitic comments, but also racist comments,
Speaker 1: also homophobic comments. I'm perfectly fine saying that's wrong. And
Speaker 1: I'm not a spokesperson for a Slummer, Muslims, or or
Speaker 1: even for myself. Like I don't need to have an
Speaker 1: opinion on Louis Farrikon and what he's doing. I'm not
Speaker 1: a part of I'm not a member of that community,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm mean. I don't have any ties
Speaker 1: to him and what he's doing, what he's saying. I
Speaker 1: am not an anti Semi. My husband is half Jewish um.
Speaker 1: We go to the Rubenstein Thanksgiving every year like that's
Speaker 1: my that's those are my loves. People who practice Judaism
Speaker 1: like so for me, it's not it's not that I'm
Speaker 1: choosing one or the other. It's just not my job
Speaker 1: to condemn him until black people receive reparations, it's not
Speaker 1: my job. But I think as as an American if
Speaker 1: if I don't have a place in the evangelical community, right,
Speaker 1: I'm not an evangelical. But if I hear that type
Speaker 1: of hateful language coming from an evangelical leader, and as
Speaker 1: a Muslim, if I hear it from a Muslim leader,
Speaker 1: if I hear from a Jewish American leader and it's hateful,
Speaker 1: I believe there is uh a shared value of morality,
Speaker 1: I think, or a shared equal standard here in America
Speaker 1: that we should be able to say, I condemn that bigotry,
Speaker 1: and I hope you stand up and condemned my bigree
Speaker 1: that's against my people, that's my There is an interesting like,
Speaker 1: even with the clasps, even with the clapping in this room,
Speaker 1: there's an interesting like white adjacent cy um. I'm not
Speaker 1: a critical race theorist, so don't take everything I say
Speaker 1: um too seriously, but you know, it's okay, like with
Speaker 1: my pale skin to say something like this, but reparations
Speaker 1: don't get a clap, do you know what I mean? Like? No, honestly,
Speaker 1: And that's a real problem, you know, until we really
Speaker 1: face some of the historical trauma in this country, I
Speaker 1: feel like we have no place criticizing a man who
Speaker 1: is doing his utmost to uplift his community, even if
Speaker 1: he is possibly a little senile, like I don't know,
Speaker 1: I don't know him, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: So it's not my place. Let's go. Let's go from
Speaker 1: the political to the personal, because I know you all
Speaker 1: wanted to part of I think not only getting to
Speaker 1: know someone who's Muslim, but also getting to understand their
Speaker 1: lives and and and getting to know them on a
Speaker 1: personal level is so critical. And you know, one of
Speaker 1: the things that we've talked about is you you have
Speaker 1: you're in an interfaith marriage. Your husband converted, So tell
Speaker 1: us what that was like and how you were accepted
Speaker 1: by his family and how your family accepted him. Lona,
Speaker 1: So his my husband's name, Sebastian. Um. He's a beautiful, tall,
Speaker 1: blue eyed white man, martial. Yeah, I hit the jackpot
Speaker 1: according to all Syrians, right, Um. But you know, he
Speaker 1: practiced Judaism for for a little while to kind of
Speaker 1: see if he could honor his grandparents and live that
Speaker 1: life in a spiritual way and didn't ultimately connect to it,
Speaker 1: and then practice Buddhism for a while. And we actually
Speaker 1: met at a commune where we both lived in Intentional
Speaker 1: Community Center. And I never first saw myself with a
Speaker 1: white man. I you know, like I know I have
Speaker 1: this pale skin, and but really and truly I didn't
Speaker 1: believe that like a white man could understand me. And
Speaker 1: like my very Arab family and like we're loud and
Speaker 1: we laugh very loudly, and we eat like Arab food,
Speaker 1: and yeah, it was just this this really interesting thing
Speaker 1: when you know, he's like, I grew up with a
Speaker 1: lot of Muslims, my best friend is a Muslim, and
Speaker 1: now you're showing up in my life, and I don't
Speaker 1: know what to do with that. And then we we
Speaker 1: we you know, had this intensive with a really beautiful
Speaker 1: Sufi and he was like, I feel my heart being
Speaker 1: called to this thing. I just want you to know
Speaker 1: that I think I'm going to become Muslim, Like, don't
Speaker 1: get scared, you know. And because he knew, like I
Speaker 1: knew that if he became Muslim, that I would really
Speaker 1: just like fall in love with him. And when that happened, um,
Speaker 1: you know, it was it was over for me. Anyways.
Speaker 1: And you know, his mother is Episcopalian, his father is
Speaker 1: an atheist Jew, And how do they feel about you.
Speaker 1: I think it's a big old love fest, to be honest.
Speaker 1: You know, food got better. There's did That's what I'm saying. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel like it's a lot of love and and
Speaker 1: just like what I hope for the future of my children,
Speaker 1: like to witness people who don't necessarily share the same
Speaker 1: practices to come together in familial bonds and ties and
Speaker 1: to say like we love each other and we're doing
Speaker 1: this for love through love, you know. And my family
Speaker 1: loved him right away. My dad was like a plus
Speaker 1: personality and yeah, and it was over, you know. You know, Um,
Speaker 1: I wanted to show the clip if you singing wrap
Speaker 1: My Job, which I walk around my apartment singing wrap
Speaker 1: my hit job. It's quite an earworm for me. So
Speaker 1: let's roll that all around the world. Love every mid ning.
Speaker 1: So even if you feel lucky jabra lucky jab lucky
Speaker 1: jab rap jab jacks Wagon, big swag and Russian jeg.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are confused about jobs
Speaker 1: and they don't understand sort the whole tradition of covering.
Speaker 1: So can you tell us quickly, Mona, why you cover
Speaker 1: and why this is important to other Muslim women as
Speaker 1: well and to some it's not. Yeah, I think for
Speaker 1: every Muslim woman you ask, you would get a different answer.
Speaker 1: A lot of Muslim women say that they dressed this
Speaker 1: way because it's modest and they believe in modesty. For me,
Speaker 1: I honestly would liken it to like taking on a
Speaker 1: practice of meditation, for instance. For me, it's a spiritual practice,
Speaker 1: a recognition every day that I am not just a
Speaker 1: physical body, that I am an intellect, a heart, a
Speaker 1: spirit um, that I have all of these entry points
Speaker 1: to my being um, and that I, like India Ari says,
Speaker 1: I am not my hair, you know, and so to
Speaker 1: truly embody that and to invite people to know me
Speaker 1: as more than just my body. First. So we live
Speaker 1: in a consumerist world, you know, the world where things
Speaker 1: are bought and sold, including bodies, and for me it's
Speaker 1: really um an act of resistance in a lot of
Speaker 1: ways to that world. And to say that my body
Speaker 1: um is not up for consumption, that I choose when
Speaker 1: and where I do what I want with my body
Speaker 1: right that for me, For me, hey, jab is a
Speaker 1: is a tool of liberation. And I know that's not
Speaker 1: necessarily true for for women all over the world, but
Speaker 1: I truly believe that in its purest iteration and intention,
Speaker 1: that's what it is. It's an act of liberation from
Speaker 1: the oppression um, the oppressive belief that we are just
Speaker 1: these bodies. Which is so interesting because certainly counterintuitive for
Speaker 1: a lot of people when they see certain majority Muslim
Speaker 1: countries forcing women to do this, But for you, it's
Speaker 1: actually the opposite. It is a sign of liberation versus oppression,
Speaker 1: which is very different in other countries. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: think it's really interesting the way religion is weaponized all
Speaker 1: over the world, you know, and used to oppress and
Speaker 1: control instead of you know, I'm a student of religion,
Speaker 1: and so I have come to believe that these wisdom
Speaker 1: traditions contain liberation. You know, that they are liberatory in
Speaker 1: their most in the most beautiful sense of liberation. You
Speaker 1: know what, what do you think is the one thing
Speaker 1: you would like this audience and our podcast listeners to
Speaker 1: walk away with and to know as a result of
Speaker 1: this conversation, the most important thing that they should keep
Speaker 1: in mind when they're looking at listening Americans and they're
Speaker 1: getting this information from the media, from the President, from
Speaker 1: various sources, from packs, from uh, you know, right wing extremists,
Speaker 1: what what how do you counter that? And what would
Speaker 1: you say to people? If you aren't writing your story,
Speaker 1: your story is always being written for you by others.
Speaker 1: And if you aren't telling your story, a story is
Speaker 1: always being told to you by others. And for many Muslims,
Speaker 1: our story has been told to us by others, and
Speaker 1: we've emerged as the sidekicks or the footnotes or the
Speaker 1: antagonists of the American narrative. And instead of looking at
Speaker 1: us as being either exceptional or terrifying, if you can
Speaker 1: look at us as your neighbor, your friend, your partner,
Speaker 1: the person who drives your uber, the person who probably
Speaker 1: fixed your heart, the person who makes a mean sharma.
Speaker 1: Look at us as co protagonists of the American narrative.
Speaker 1: And yes, there are some dark days here, but like
Speaker 1: I said before, a crisis presents an opportunity. And what
Speaker 1: we're witnessing right now, and this is very exciting for
Speaker 1: me because I was born in this country is a
Speaker 1: multicultural coalition of the willing rising. And I see other
Speaker 1: people carrying other people's waters, and so let me carry
Speaker 1: your water, you carry my water, and let's eat some
Speaker 1: tasty food together and make America delicious. That's my take.
Speaker 1: It's better for all of our kids. I mean that sincerely.
Speaker 1: And on that same note, I think it's I would
Speaker 1: hope that people walked away really understanding that homophobia, transphobia,
Speaker 1: fat phobia, xenophobia, um so, homophobia, racism, sexism, they're all
Speaker 1: the same disease. They're intent on dividing, their intent on
Speaker 1: seeing um some as less or not valuable or not
Speaker 1: worthy of love. And my hope is that people will
Speaker 1: understand that we can transcend that and that love is
Speaker 1: so much more fun, you know, um, love is so
Speaker 1: much sweeter. Thank you so much, as always to the
Speaker 1: team that makes it happen every week, our producer Gianna Palmer,
Speaker 1: our audio engineer Jared O'Connell, and our assistant producer Nora Richie.
Speaker 1: Thanks also to our social media wiz Alison Bresnik at
Speaker 1: Emily Beana and bethams over at Katie Curric Media. Katie
Speaker 1: and I are the show's executive producers, and Mark Phillips
Speaker 1: wrote our theme music. You can find me on social
Speaker 1: media under Katie Curic and Brian tweets from the handle
Speaker 1: goldsmith b and he tweets up a storm so you
Speaker 1: all should follow him be spun to follow anyway. We'll
Speaker 1: talk to you next week. Thanks as always for listening. Bye,