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Speaker 1: Hi, Brian, Hi Katie. So this week our conversation comes

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Speaker 1: out of Austin, Texas, where we taped an episode at

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Speaker 1: south By Southwest, the annual conference and festival held every

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Speaker 1: year there. It was my first time at south By,

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Speaker 1: as people in the know apparently call it, Brian, it

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Speaker 1: was my first time too. It was very groovy and hipster,

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Speaker 1: and people recognize me everywhere as the least cool person

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Speaker 1: walking around. Maybe because you still use the word groovy, Brian,

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Speaker 1: that could be a dead giveaway. Anyway, it's this very

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Speaker 1: podcast that brought us to Austin. We take today's interview

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Speaker 1: in front of a live audience at south By, which

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Speaker 1: was really fun, and the taping was special for another

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Speaker 1: reason to Katie, that's right, Brian, because it was aligned

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Speaker 1: with my national geographic series called America Inside Out. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: our guest today, we're both in the episode of your

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Speaker 1: series called The Muslim next Door, which is out this week.

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Speaker 1: It's really all about the challenges and opportunities that American

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Speaker 1: Muslims are facing right now. That's right, Brian. For our podcast,

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Speaker 1: we spoke with two of the people who are featured

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Speaker 1: in this episode was Jahat Ali, who was a new

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Speaker 1: York Times contributing up ed writer and has written for

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Speaker 1: a number of publications. A very very smart guy and

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Speaker 1: Emmy nominated producer Mona Haydar, who is a Syrian American activist, rapper,

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Speaker 1: that's right, and scholar herself. And you should google Mona's

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Speaker 1: music video which is called hijab Wrap My Hi Job.

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Speaker 1: And I just read that in like the whitest way possible.

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Speaker 1: Katie's very Katie's very addicted to it. Wrap my Job.

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Speaker 1: I love it. Actually, it's a really yes. And at

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Speaker 1: a time when a proposed travel band has the support

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Speaker 1: of more than half the population, when President Trump has

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Speaker 1: pondered asking Muslim Americans to register with the federal government,

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Speaker 1: and when hate crimes against Muslim people in this country

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Speaker 1: are at an all time high, well, let's just say

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Speaker 1: we had a lot to talk about, that's right. I

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Speaker 1: thought it was a very important and enlightening conversation, if

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Speaker 1: I do say so myself, not because of me, but

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Speaker 1: because of our guests, because of me, yes, because of you, Brian.

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Speaker 1: But things got a teeny bit heated when Mona made

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Speaker 1: some statements specifically about Louis farakon. Yeah, you should pay

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Speaker 1: close attention when I asked Mona and Watch about Louis Farakon,

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Speaker 1: who is, of course the longtime leader of the Nation

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Speaker 1: of Islam, who's been in the news recently for his

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Speaker 1: anti Semitic remarks. We're running out of time. I wish

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Speaker 1: i'd actually push Mona a little more for refusing to

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Speaker 1: condemn Farrakon's hate speech after attacking others earlier in the

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Speaker 1: conversation for saying hateful stuff. It was very ironic, Brian,

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Speaker 1: I agree, because I think you really can't have it

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Speaker 1: both ways, and I think Wash expressed that sentiment quite well.

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Speaker 1: But as always, we're curious what you think, so please

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Speaker 1: call or right in with your feedback on this episode

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Speaker 1: at nine two to four, four, six, three seven or

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Speaker 1: comments at correct podcast dot com. And now to our

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Speaker 1: conversation with Mona and Wash. Wash and I are like this.

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Speaker 1: I now call him Wash instead of Wash. From the

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Speaker 1: Halls of south By Southwest to watch Mona. I was

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Speaker 1: going to give each of you a glowing introduction, but

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Speaker 1: I just decided why bother with that? Why don't you

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Speaker 1: introduce yourselves and let some people in the audience who

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Speaker 1: may not know you as well get to know you

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Speaker 1: a little bit better. Oh, ladies first, I guess um,

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Speaker 1: you know, smash the patriarchy and ladies first. But so,

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Speaker 1: my name is Mona Haydar. I am a poet turned rapper,

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Speaker 1: mom of two beautiful baby boys. I grew up in Flint, Michigan.

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Speaker 1: I live in New York currently. I am currently in

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Speaker 1: my last semester hopefully of getting my masters in theology, um,

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Speaker 1: specifically Christian social ethics. Ah. Yeah, I know, I'm a Muslim.

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Speaker 1: Why am I doing that? But it's cool. That's that's

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Speaker 1: good for now. Okay, wash, it makes me feel so inadequate,

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Speaker 1: I don't wrap. Uh. First of all, thank you guys

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Speaker 1: for coming this to the Muslim next door. I feel

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Speaker 1: like this is depending on your politics, this is either

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Speaker 1: the title of a horror movie or a romantic comedy.

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Speaker 1: And so like, if Mona is the guests is the

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Speaker 1: romantic comedy, I'm the Muslim next door, which be terrified.

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Speaker 1: Protect Katie Couric at all costs, America's sweetheart from the

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Speaker 1: Muslim next door. Uh. I was born and raised in

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Speaker 1: fremontis Than, California, the Bay Area, anyone, the Bay Area, anyone? Yes?

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Speaker 1: Thank you? H to Pakistani Muslim immigrant parents who thought'd

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Speaker 1: be hilarious to name me Wajahat, and you know it

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Speaker 1: was oftentimes. Growing up was like the token Muslim and

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Speaker 1: token Pakistani, and I became like the Muslim friend of

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Speaker 1: people right. And I went to an all boys Jesuit

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Speaker 1: Catholic high school and every semester I got the highest

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Speaker 1: grade in religious studies class. It was me colley On

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Speaker 1: nilam rod to the Hindu and Navid Mustafavi the lapsed Persian,

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Speaker 1: and father Alander used to read the grades in his heart,

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Speaker 1: used to like just the Jesuit heart cracked little. But

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Speaker 1: but even though I just want to say this, even

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Speaker 1: though I grew up in America with e s L,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't speak English until I was five, I ended

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Speaker 1: up graduating with an English major from UC Berkeley. And

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Speaker 1: even though yes, yes, thank you. And even though I

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Speaker 1: was healthy growing up, and healthy is a euphemism for

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Speaker 1: big boned, and big bone is a euphemism for fat,

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Speaker 1: I was fat, uh, and I wore husky pants. I

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Speaker 1: ended up marrying an extremely accomplished, extremely smart high school

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Speaker 1: varsity cheerleaders. So hashtag it gets better uh. And now

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Speaker 1: I'm sitting next to Katie current I'm a writer, I'm

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Speaker 1: a tired dead of two and Pakistani immigrant uncles in

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Speaker 1: my community. All the stuff I've done, They're like, none

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Speaker 1: of it matters. You're talking to Katie. Court made it,

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Speaker 1: so I made it. Everything else is downhill from now

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Speaker 1: I've made it. I'm the door. Well, thank you guys

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Speaker 1: for those quick bios. We're out of time. Thanks very

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Speaker 1: much for comming. I'm just kidding, kidding, so we know

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Speaker 1: we have no I'm not We have a lot, a

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Speaker 1: lot to get to and first to be Dickensie and

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Speaker 1: about it. These are the best of times. These are

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Speaker 1: the worst of times for for being h for Muslims

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Speaker 1: in this country. What words would you both use to

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Speaker 1: describe what it's like to be Muslim in America today?

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Speaker 1: Or is that question in and of itself problematic? Is

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Speaker 1: that like saying what is it like to be a

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Speaker 1: white Christian lady in America today? I think it's great

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Speaker 1: depending on where you are, your social location, your economic location,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think all of that plays into the question.

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Speaker 1: But I think for a lot of Muslims in Middle America,

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Speaker 1: Islamophobia is can be lethal, as we've seen uh in

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Speaker 1: different parts of the country, and for some people, Islam

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Speaker 1: is their break is the thing that sets them apart.

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Speaker 1: Um like Hedima Aiden, who's doing amazing things on New

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Speaker 1: York Runway. And I feel like for me, being very

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Speaker 1: visible Muslim has done good things for me. Um. And

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Speaker 1: I was wildly pregnant in my first music video, so

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Speaker 1: wildly mold pregnant, any months pregnant. So you know, I

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Speaker 1: think we're very visible. We're a very visible population. Um.

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Speaker 1: We can be not always, but yeah, I think it

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Speaker 1: depends on where you are exhausting and exciting, exhausting. Because

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Speaker 1: I grew up. I was twenty years old when nine

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Speaker 1: eleven happened. I was a senior at UC Brooklyn, and

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Speaker 1: that's a pivotal shift for that generation, right, because there's

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Speaker 1: always a PRENI eleven and post eleven and for the

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Speaker 1: past seventeen years. Uh, it seems that based on the

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Speaker 1: rules that we choose in life, I end up being

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Speaker 1: this walking Muslim Wikipedia entry and a cultural ambassador for

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Speaker 1: one point seven billion people in sixteen hundred years of Islam,

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Speaker 1: years of Islamic civilization, and any time some violent extremists

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Speaker 1: who I've never met does something in a country I've

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Speaker 1: never visited. Our people's and our history is indicted, interrogated, investigated, questioned,

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Speaker 1: and sentenced to buy a nameless judge during executioner that

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Speaker 1: always holds our loyalty as suspect. And so you're always

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Speaker 1: like a walking explainer on Islam and Kuran and Sharia

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Speaker 1: and brock Kusan Obama who's not Muslim, but if he

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Speaker 1: was Muslim, I wouldn't make a difference. Uh, And you know,

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Speaker 1: like Hamas and Hamas, like everything right and and like

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Speaker 1: everything like you have to know everything, and God forbid,

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Speaker 1: if you make a mistake, you are personally not indicted.

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Speaker 1: The entire collection of something called Muslims is indicted or

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Speaker 1: something called is Islam. And then they always ask you

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Speaker 1: why does is Islam hate the West? And then when

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Speaker 1: I go to Muslim countries, ask why does the West

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Speaker 1: hate Islam? And I'm like, who is Islam and who's

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Speaker 1: the West? And how come I've never met either of them?

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Speaker 1: And it's also exciting because I joke and you have

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Speaker 1: to have some dark humor. It's like choose your own adventure,

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Speaker 1: especially with Trump. Right, you might wake up and next

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Speaker 1: day you'll be in the Muslim camps and you hope

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Speaker 1: there's WiFi, or you might wake up and Mona's you know,

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Speaker 1: rapping with her, you know, extremely pregnant, or just say

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Speaker 1: wildly pregnant belly right, And so a crisis presents an opportunity.

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Speaker 1: You're seeing Americans say, wait a second, this islamophobia thing

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Speaker 1: is real. Oh, Muslims have been here for four hundred years.

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Speaker 1: Oh why don't you guys step up and be the

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Speaker 1: protagonist of this narrative and we'll follow your lead. And

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Speaker 1: that's exciting, and we're gonna cover President Trump in a

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Speaker 1: little bit. But speaking of a walking explainer of Islam,

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Speaker 1: you set up a booth mona sometimes with a sign

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Speaker 1: that says, ask a Muslim, what are the sorts of

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Speaker 1: questions you get and the answers you give? Can you

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Speaker 1: give us a few highlights? Yeah? Sure. I mean it's

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Speaker 1: really fascinating when we when we go out on the

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Speaker 1: streets and we do this, UM, people come to us.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a social experiment of vulnerability. UM is

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Speaker 1: what it really is. People really just want to connect.

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Speaker 1: And so people would come with often authentic curiosity and vulnerability,

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Speaker 1: and they would open their hearts and they would say,

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Speaker 1: I feel really ignorant. I don't know, like do you

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Speaker 1: wear that when you sleep? Or like did your dad

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Speaker 1: force you to wear that? Or are you actually like

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Speaker 1: a free woman? You know? Do you need my help?

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Speaker 1: Should I save you from that white guy who maybe

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Speaker 1: it's your husband, maybe is like a lurking hipster? Like

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Speaker 1: should do you need do you need help? Can I

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Speaker 1: liberate you? You know? Um? And so folks came with

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Speaker 1: a lot of different things, but I feel like when

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Speaker 1: people came with authentic curiosity and vulnerability, it always transcended

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Speaker 1: that awkwardness and it always moved into the space of like, wow,

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Speaker 1: like we're just two people kind of opening our hearts

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Speaker 1: to each other. And I found, to be honest that

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Speaker 1: when I was really present with folks, when I was

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Speaker 1: really open and listening and really present to them, um,

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Speaker 1: we could really quickly transcend what they may be called

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Speaker 1: their ignorance because it was really hearts meeting. And at

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Speaker 1: the end of the day, that's that's all. We really

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Speaker 1: need to heal a lot of the wounds that I

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Speaker 1: feel like this country and a lot of the world

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Speaker 1: are dealing with, you know, and wash, what do you

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Speaker 1: think are the some of the biggest misconceptions about Muslims,

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Speaker 1: even among educated people, I mean the educated liberals and

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Speaker 1: the lurking hipsters. I'll give you top five. Where are

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Speaker 1: the moderate Muslims? And how come they haven't condemned terrorism?

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Speaker 1: Is isis al Qaida, Bocoham or al Shabab representative of

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Speaker 1: traditional Islam some combination of those two. Number three, are

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Speaker 1: you guys commanded to do violent jahad against the infidels?

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Speaker 1: Number four? Are you trying to implement sharia across America?

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Speaker 1: Number five? Why do you hate and oppress your women?

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Speaker 1: And bonus the Jews? Why do you hate them? So

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Speaker 1: those are the six misconceptions, and in those misconceptions are

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Speaker 1: the assumptions that, apparently, when someone asked the question where

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Speaker 1: are the moderate Muslims? It's such a troubling question because

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Speaker 1: the assumption is there's no such thing as a moderate Muslim,

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Speaker 1: any practicing Muslim by virtue of being a because the

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Speaker 1: Muslim is somehow radical, anti Western, anti American. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's so funny. On the airplane on the way here

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Speaker 1: today this morning, um, a very lovely woman was sitting

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Speaker 1: next to me, and she asked me, why aren't more

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Speaker 1: Muslim speaking out against these violent extremists, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm doing everything I can. You know, like, it's not

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Speaker 1: my problem and it's not my job to to address

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Speaker 1: that question. It's not my job to like convince the

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Speaker 1: whole world that I'm not violent, that I am a

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Speaker 1: normal mom, potty training my child, like trying to finish

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Speaker 1: my master's degree, you know, like it's not my job

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Speaker 1: to educate the masses about me what what is My

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Speaker 1: job is to be an authentic human being. But the

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Speaker 1: burden also falls right because they've been doing the study

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Speaker 1: for the past seven years. Americans say they don't know

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Speaker 1: Muslim and when you say, listen, man, I'm your Muslim friend,

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Speaker 1: they go, oh yeah, oh yeah you, but not I

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Speaker 1: was thinking thinking about And I'm like, you're not the

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Speaker 1: right kind of Muslim. You're thinking about Osama or Saddam

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Speaker 1: or Ayatola. So the image of Islam is something foreign.

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Speaker 1: So that when a well intentioned person and I'm sure

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Speaker 1: she was really nice and sweet and pleasant, yes, says

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Speaker 1: that to Mona. In her mindset, the Muslim is not

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Speaker 1: her or me, the Muslim next door. It's uh An

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Speaker 1: isis recruit. But you talk about when we sat down together,

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Speaker 1: watch about sort of the expectation there's there be a

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Speaker 1: condemned the thon on the part of so called moderate Muslims,

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Speaker 1: and how unfair that is in terms of expecting a reaction,

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Speaker 1: expecting you to go on television every time there's an

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Speaker 1: event and speak out. Yeah, it's so for this, it's

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Speaker 1: like a double standard for people to really experience this. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Muslim guy in New York October thirty one, Uzbek national

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Speaker 1: takes a car, rams through a crowd, kills people. Apparently

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Speaker 1: he yells a lahuag bar, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: the chiron and says man yells, allow hawkbar. Government investigating terrorism.

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Speaker 1: Now everyone now allow hawkbar trands And everyone's like, where

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Speaker 1: are the moderate Muslimism? Why aren't they condemning this? And

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Speaker 1: where is your moderation? And there's a unique problem with

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Speaker 1: the Islam. It's a unique threat and we need special

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Speaker 1: counsels to investigate. In Charlottesville, a young white dude, UH,

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Speaker 1: some very fine people uh in the summer too soon,

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Speaker 1: my bad uh takes a car and deliberately rams it

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Speaker 1: through a crowd and act of terrorism, killing a woman.

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Speaker 1: Katie and Brian, I do not think that you were asked,

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Speaker 1: where are the moderate whites and how come they're not

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Speaker 1: condemning white terrorism, white people. You're not doing enough to

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Speaker 1: counter white supremacists and rental, radical anti government activists, white people.

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Speaker 1: Where are your leaders? Now? Imagine if that burden was

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Speaker 1: placed on you, and I'm assuming you guys would be like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know those very fine people in Charlotte. I'm

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Speaker 1: Katie mother Efin Kuric, what why are you asking me

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Speaker 1: to do this? Right? And now imagine us the same

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Speaker 1: thing happens. So it's the double standard that seeps into

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Speaker 1: our media framing, which shapes our perceptions, which shapes the narratives,

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Speaker 1: which shapes domestic and foreign policy, and it weaponizes Muslim

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Speaker 1: for politicians to gain votes and get elected into office. Well,

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Speaker 1: and to that point, it's it's interesting right wing extremist

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Speaker 1: groups have been responsible for nearly white In fact, we

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Speaker 1: should add white right wing white I think I said

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Speaker 1: white wing. That was a Freudian slip. You said it,

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Speaker 1: not us, Yeah, you said it. I'm proud. I want

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Speaker 1: to use the hashtag quote him not us. I'll favored it.

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Speaker 1: I know our moderate whites don't worry. Some of our

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Speaker 1: best friends are whites moderate whites? Yeah, we love the whites.

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Speaker 1: Everyone loves the whites. Anyway, Right wing extremist groups have

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Speaker 1: been responsible for nearly three times the number of violent

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Speaker 1: incidents as Muslim extremists since nine eleven, And yet that's

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Speaker 1: clearly not the perception. Why is that? Or Just State

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Speaker 1: University did an analysis exactly of that. When it comes

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Speaker 1: to even though white supremacists and radical white what do

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Speaker 1: you say white wing, white wing terrorists are response from

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Speaker 1: the most domestic terror threats and attacks, There's four times

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Speaker 1: as much media coverage when the suspect is wait for it,

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Speaker 1: Muslim in newspapers. And I'll give you an example Stephen

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Speaker 1: Paddock October was in October when from the Mandalay Bay

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Speaker 1: fiftieth floor shot and killed more than almost fifty people

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Speaker 1: right Las Vegas. What was the media framing lone wolf

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Speaker 1: mental health problems? A quiet man who would have thought, uh,

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Speaker 1: Pola Pov does it? Uzbek national we need to end

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Speaker 1: diversity lottery program And this goes back and I won't

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Speaker 1: get into it, katiecause terrorists it's it's it becomes yeah,

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Speaker 1: who's a terrorist? It becomes a meaningless term now, especially

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Speaker 1: after nine eleven because Stephen Paddock does it lone wolf,

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Speaker 1: the guy in shaw Olsville does it lone wolf, Muslim

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Speaker 1: does it or black man does it? Immediately the framing

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Speaker 1: is what terrorist, which changes the law enforcement response, the

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Speaker 1: media response, and the political response. And there's just some

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Speaker 1: angry white guys, you know. But it's particular for Muslims

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Speaker 1: even more than African Americans. Wouldn't you say, I don't

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Speaker 1: think the word terrorist is automatically used. Muslim and black

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Speaker 1: are not mutually exclusive, right exactly, But still I think

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Speaker 1: when it is a Muslim name, a Muslim sounding name,

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Speaker 1: then I think they're very very quick to term it

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Speaker 1: a terrorist act, right wash. We have to draw the

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Speaker 1: parallels because it draws upon the history of terrorisming black

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Speaker 1: men and women in this country, and black was synonymous

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Speaker 1: and oftentimes is with Chicago violence. That's another code word

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Speaker 1: that Trump uses, right, savage, the enemy, the other it's

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Speaker 1: all other rising language. And so that same type of

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Speaker 1: otherizing language that was used against black people latinos m

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Speaker 1: s thirt and remember that that's gonna be a sexy

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Speaker 1: one going to uh Japanese Americans in World War two. Now,

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Speaker 1: taggre it it's the Muslim and the tag that hits

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Speaker 1: Muslims in particular is terrorism. Whiteness or white supremacy in

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Speaker 1: particular is given a pass, whereas Muslim or Blackness, i

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Speaker 1: would say, is always examined and the entire people who

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Speaker 1: represent Muslims or blackness are interrogated. We're going to take

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Speaker 1: a quick break. We'll be back with our conversation from

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Speaker 1: south By Southwest with wasajahat Ali and Mona Haydar. I

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Speaker 1: want to thank our listeners who called or wrote in

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Speaker 1: with their reflections for this week's episode, and I'd like

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Speaker 1: to share a couple of the messages we got to start.

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Speaker 1: Let's listen to a voicemail. Hi. My name is Kathy,

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Speaker 1: and I did not have a lot of familiarity with Muslims.

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Speaker 1: Um in high school, there were some and it was

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Speaker 1: during the Iran contra trials and people were getting spit

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Speaker 1: on and I would I would go to teachers because

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Speaker 1: I would see that happening in the hallway and that

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Speaker 1: was disturbing. Fast Foredom. And now a school teacher in California,

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Speaker 1: and I have a number of Muslim students and they're

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Speaker 1: just great families and kids, and I just feel badly, because,

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Speaker 1: for instance, on Facebook, a friend will post something about

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Speaker 1: all Muslims and I have to say, you know, that's

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Speaker 1: just not true. I work with these kids and these families,

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Speaker 1: and they'll say, well, we're not talking about them, We're

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Speaker 1: talking about the terrorists. And I think, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: like when people say things about right wing Christians evangelicals,

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Speaker 1: and I think, no, you know, you're making a mass

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Speaker 1: statement for a very select group of people. Both are

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Speaker 1: terrorists on either extremes. You know, someone I mean an

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Speaker 1: abortion clinic versus someone doing a you know, a suicide

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Speaker 1: and killing people. If they're Muslim, they're they're terrorists. And

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Speaker 1: I just think when you get to know people and

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Speaker 1: you can build those bridges, it helps. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I asked questions because I don't know, and and it's

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Speaker 1: very wide umbrella and there Muslim just like with Christianity. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: those are my thoughts and I'm still a learner and

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Speaker 1: I'm now fifty four year years old. Um, but thank

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Speaker 1: you for doing this series. I really appreciate it. Well,

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Speaker 1: thank you for calling Kathy. I think we're all lifetime learners.

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Speaker 1: I feel that way, and we all have to continue

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Speaker 1: to ask questions and seek the truth. And your high

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Speaker 1: school memories of people spitting at Muslim students, obviously that's

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Speaker 1: something that stayed with you that sounds horrible. And also

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Speaker 1: the point you make that white extremists commit acts of

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Speaker 1: domestic terrorists, um and actually they do so, according to studies,

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Speaker 1: three times more often than Muslim extremists. But when Muslim

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Speaker 1: extremists commit a terrorist act here in this country, it gets,

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Speaker 1: according to a study by Georgia State University, four and

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Speaker 1: a half times the media coverage, or at least newspaper coverage.

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Speaker 1: So I think the way uh these events are conveyed

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Speaker 1: to us and conveyed to us as Americans in general,

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Speaker 1: really shape our views and often feed into negative impressions

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Speaker 1: of Muslim Americans that are simply completely unfair. Next, a

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Speaker 1: listener named Mary Gubrud wrote to us from Cedar Falls, Iowa. Mary,

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Speaker 1: thank you for that. She told us that a little

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Speaker 1: over a year ago, some women from her church she's

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Speaker 1: a Lutheran, decided to get together with women from a

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Speaker 1: local mosque, And this is what Mary wrote to us.

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Speaker 1: We began simply, we shared food that was acceptable to

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Speaker 1: both religions for a meal and then began to get

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Speaker 1: to know each other as women, mothers, sisters, and daughters.

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Speaker 1: Building on those common threads, we form friendships and then

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Speaker 1: began to learn and understand each other's faith. This group

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Speaker 1: has grown in the past year to include women from

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Speaker 1: a number of churches, the mosque as well as the

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Speaker 1: local synagogue. We meet monthly, sometimes at a church, sometimes

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Speaker 1: at the mosque, or sometimes at the synagogue. We share

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Speaker 1: a vegetarian meal, potluck style. She said. We are Midwesterners,

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Speaker 1: you know, and then have time where we learn from

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Speaker 1: each other or explore common issues. Mary, your letter, your

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Speaker 1: email makes me want to cry. You add, my life

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Speaker 1: is richer for the Muslim women I now call friends,

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Speaker 1: and this has allowed me to tell others where their

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Speaker 1: misconceptions of that faith are incorrect. I think, obviously, this

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Speaker 1: is what it's all about, spending time with people who

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Speaker 1: are different than we are, seeing them for what they are,

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Speaker 1: mother's daughters, sisters, people who want the best for their family,

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Speaker 1: and learning from each there. And Mary, I think you're

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Speaker 1: an object lesson in my whole goal for this series

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Speaker 1: America Inside Out, to get to know each other, to

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Speaker 1: get out of our comfort zone, and to learn from

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Speaker 1: one another. So thank you so much for writing and uh,

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Speaker 1: I'm very moved by what you said. Coming up, by

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Speaker 1: the way, in my series Fernaccio, I'll be exploring white

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Speaker 1: working class anxiety now. Over the past several months, I've

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Speaker 1: spent time in communities like Johnstown, Pennsylvania, Fremont, Nebraska, Erie, Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 1: Storm Lake, Iowa. These are places that have lived through

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Speaker 1: massive demographic, technological, and economic changes. So I'm hoping to

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Speaker 1: hear from some of our listeners in rural areas or

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Speaker 1: in the rust belt. What is life like where you live?

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Speaker 1: How has your community changed in recent decades. I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: here about factories closing, the opioid epidemic, or the so

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Speaker 1: called deaths of despair, and battles over immigration. Have these

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Speaker 1: issues affected your community or even shaped your politics or

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Speaker 1: your outlook? So give us a call to weigh in

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Speaker 1: at nine to nine to four, four, six, three seven

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Speaker 1: in a pupil of Muslims say Donald Trump makes me

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Speaker 1: feel worried. According to the FBI, hate crimes reported toward

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Speaker 1: Muslims increased between two thousand, fifteen and sixteen. What role

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Speaker 1: do you think President Trump has played in all this? Like,

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't know. I'm not a political talking head, right,

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Speaker 1: like I'm a rapper. Um So, even like I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I feel like we expect a lot of Muslims, like

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Speaker 1: the lady on the airplane really expected me to be

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Speaker 1: able to comment on Afghanistan and what's happening in Ida

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Speaker 1: and Isis and all that stuff. But as somebody who

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Speaker 1: experiences his comments, just curse for you and how that

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Speaker 1: translates into two negative feelings for other people. I mean

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Speaker 1: from your own personal perspective. Yeah, I can talk about

423
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 1: the way Donald Trump hits me, and it's just kind

424
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: of gut wrenching and destabilizing of of a feeling of

425
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 1: safety and security. Um as a as a young girl

426
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: growing up, I feel like I knew my family was different, right,

427
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 1: And then when nine eleven happened, Um, it was this

428
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 1: really big shift. It was this moment, this like real

429
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 1: in breath and like I could feel everybody holding their

430
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,199
Speaker 1: breath because it was like the facade is gone, the

431
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: masks have been ripped off. And that was a real

432
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: pivoting moment for a lot of Muslims in America to

433
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: understand the intensity of xenophobia of the rhetoric of someone

434
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:02,360
Speaker 1: like Trump, of those really deeply seated beliefs that exist

435
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: which stem I mean, this is why I'm doing my

436
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 1: masters in Christian ethics UM, because they stem from a

437
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: theological place white supremacy. You know, if you read the

438
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 1: Founding Fathers, UM, a lot of it stems from what's

439
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 1: called Saxonism. It stems from this really theological space of like,

440
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: we are superior, we are better, and thus we must

441
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 1: protect We must um, you know, enclose, we must guard

442
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: UM because otherwise it will be dirtied, it will be sullied,

443
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: it would it will be muddled UM. And for me,

444
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: somebody who really believes in the beauty of all people,

445
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 1: of all ways, of all paths, of all wisdom UM,

446
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 1: I think it's it's it's traumatic to see how UM

447
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 1: really ideology can be weaponized. I want to kind of

448
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: live in my artistic Laala land and believe that the

449
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 1: world is so beautiful and like that we're just we're

450
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 1: on our way to this more beautiful world. And it

451
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: kind of just breaks my heart, you know, to see

452
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: somebody who is intent and hell bent on dividing UM

453
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: instead of uniting, which I feel like it's so fulfilling

454
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 1: and joyful, you know, like I want that joy for everyone.

455
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 1: You know. Watch, what role do you think the president

456
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 1: has played in all of this and the rise of

457
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: hate crimes and furthering Muslims liberal media? Come on now,

458
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: I'm just kidding. Uh. President Trump has essentially weaponized what

459
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: was already there for several decades, this deep fear and

460
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: mistrust of not just Muslims, but people of color in general.

461
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: If you look at all the stats and surveys that

462
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: have come out now a year and a hal after

463
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: the election, and people of color journalists like myself who

464
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: followed the campaign trail would tell you this. It was

465
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: primarily racial anxiety that motivated a lot of Trump space.

466
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 1: If you look at the thirty second ad that Donald

467
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 1: Trump dropped for his campaign, it only focused on two issues,

468
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: a lot of Mexicans crossing the border and the Muslim man.

469
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 1: But there weren't really Mexicans. It was a shot of Moroccans.

470
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 1: But hey, who cares? Nuances um and the use of fear, hate,

471
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 1: and anger, especially against a minority. This mozele tough cocktail

472
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 1: and throwing it and saying thank you, thank you, thank you,

473
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 1: thank you, Yeah, thank you, Uh, that's nothing new. It's

474
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: been using politics throughout both in America and abroad. And well,

475
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: and we should say that isn't a purely partisan common

476
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: because President Bush after nine eleven made a large point

477
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: a real effort not to stigmatize Islam is not the problem.

478
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: Muslims are part of our fabric. He made two speeches.

479
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: And the sad irony is sixteen years later, if George W.

480
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: Bush was to run as a Republican presidential nominee, he

481
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,239
Speaker 1: would not get the ticket because he'd be seen as

482
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: a Muslim lover right, And so President Trump what he

483
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: did was these existing me is that we're on the fringe.

484
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: Just seven years ago, he realized, Hey, it seems my

485
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: base loves it. I'm getting more votes, They're coming to

486
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: my rallies. Let's go after the Mexicans. He descended the

487
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: Golden Staircase, and he said, we gotta stop and protect

488
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: ourselves from Mexican rapists and criminals. And then he said, ah,

489
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: the Muslim thing, I'm getting more mileage out of it.

490
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: Let's do it. And now it's mainstreamed to the point

491
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: where when I was growing up, the worst thing I

492
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: was called was Gandhi, which is a compliment. I mean

493
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: I used to tell like the bullies, I'm like, thank

494
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: you for comparing me to a world leader who, along

495
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: with millions of others, through off three d years of imperialism.

496
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: And they're like, oh, you're fat. Uh you know, but

497
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm gonna get you in the end. But now,

498
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: just to show you how it's personalized, there are parents

499
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: who are scared and you know we have I have

500
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: two cute babies. You've got two cute babies. This conversation

501
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: is now mainstream and Muslim American circles people born and

502
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: raised in America. I should give my kid a safe name.

503
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: If I give him a MUSLIMI name, that will make

504
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: him into our target. So maybe I should call him

505
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: Ryan because white people will call him Ryan, or maybe Layla.

506
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: White people like Layla. And this conversation now I heard

507
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: like two years ago, and I'm like, wait a second, guys,

508
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 1: We're self policing our kids names in the age of

509
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,479
Speaker 1: Trump to protect them even though they have done nothing wrong,

510
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: and they're only marker of being a suspect will be

511
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: their skin color and their Muslim identity. We always want

512
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: to protect our kids. But the fact that most of

513
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: the Americans have to think about this now in the

514
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: age of Trump, just to bring it home, that's what's

515
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: changed the landscape. You don't belong, you're not welcomed. Why

516
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: because you will replace us, which is what they said

517
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: in Charlts. And you know, of course, President Trump made

518
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: a big deal about semantics and differed from President Obama

519
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: in terms of wanting to call out radical Islamic terror,

520
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: radical Islamic terrorism and um and and that is another

521
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: way that Donald Trump has tried to bash Muslims in

522
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: this country and put everyone in some big category. And

523
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: why is that term so damaging in your view? And

524
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: and and what kind of impact does that have around

525
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: the world. Because of course the big argument is you

526
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: cannot indict an entire faith, according to President Obama. But

527
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 1: President Trump says it's fine. I mean, I don't know

528
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: what to say. He's an asshole. Sorry, like I don't know,

529
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: sorry for your podcast that you might have to believe that.

530
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: I mean to play Devil's advocate for one second. His

531
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: argument is you can't fix the problem until you identify it.

532
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: And President Obama didn't have the courage and the straightforwardness

533
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 1: to sort of call it what it is. And of

534
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 1: course President Obama's argument is you are painting with a

535
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: broad brush, and you're saying that. All President Bushes and

536
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: President Bush's argument the same way. They would not use

537
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: that phrase for a very particular reason. Um. But but

538
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: what do you say to the Trump argument that you know,

539
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 1: in order to fix this you first have to identify it. Well,

540
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: I think it's fascinating because when it comes to violence,

541
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: you know, violence against communities of color in this country,

542
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: it's okay. You know, it's okay to like I was

543
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: at Standing Rock, it's okay to use water cannons on

544
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: Native people, Indigenous people. Um, it's okay to use tear gas. Yeah,

545
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: that like, that's okay. It's okay to send drones to Pakistan.

546
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: It's okay to you know, perform these kinds of violence.

547
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: But um, when wounded people who come from colonized contacts

548
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: with literally nothing to live for, which is why they

549
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: are they're behaving in these violent ways. They have these

550
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: deep wounds that need healing. No, we can't see them

551
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: as people. But for us to perform this violence, like

552
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: we're we're democratizing the world, we are doing it under

553
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: the guys of globalization, like it's fine for us, like

554
00:32:58,040 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: you know when when the money backs, it's like we

555
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 1: there was just an arms deal with Saudi Arabia. What

556
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: was it, like three billion dollars, Like that's okay for

557
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,959
Speaker 1: Saudi East to kill Yemeni's and to massacre them, like

558
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: because there's money, they're right, So that's okay, But like

559
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: some kinds of violence, you know, or not okay. And

560
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: so again it comes back to the idea of the

561
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: double standard, which I think it's like that Sweatshop Boys

562
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 1: song if you're black or black, brown or black, Babylon

563
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: has come for your head. You know, that's real double standard.

564
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: Also when it comes to language, and we've been talking

565
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: about language, but language, much like ideology, much like identity,

566
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,719
Speaker 1: much like history, also gets hijacked by extremists. Sebastian Gorka,

567
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: good Ald Sebastian Gorka, who was in the White House

568
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: until he wasn't a week before Charlottesville, said we we

569
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: don't need to focus on white supremacy as a problem, right,

570
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: and so language when it comes to the framing, Obama said,

571
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: and same with the Bush. We all know what the

572
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: problem is. We know it's ISIS. We know it's al Qaida,

573
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: but there's similarities and they're violent extremists, so that was

574
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: the term that was used. Or you can go ahead

575
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: and say violent Muslim extremists, violent Christian extremists. By deliberately

576
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 1: framing it as radical Islamic terrorism without any nuance, this

577
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: type of framing is a ineffective, it doesn't work, and

578
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: b it's counterproductive. It makes us less safe and actually

579
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: gives ammunition to ISIS and al Qaida because the number

580
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: one recruitment of ISIS and al Kaada is the following

581
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: the West hates Islam. The West as at war with

582
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: the Islam. And that's why I was on BBC News

583
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 1: Hour when Trump became a candidate. I said, and this

584
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 1: has actually proven that ISIS was actively rooting for Trump

585
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: because he literally gives them their calling card to say, look,

586
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,439
Speaker 1: they hate you. He wants to do a Muslim man.

587
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 1: In addition to the Iraq War and Afghanistan, he says

588
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 1: Islam hates you. He's open to a registry. See oh,

589
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 1: those recruits, those angry, dislocated individuals seeking purpose join us.

590
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: So it's counterproductive, ineffective, it doesn't help anyone and I

591
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: was at a Trump rally two weeks before the election

592
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 1: in Maine. That's what I knew Who's gonna win. I

593
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: was the only person of color, only journalist. Awesome and

594
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: Rudy Giuliani came out and they didn't even like say sentences.

595
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: He literally just said the wall, and then he said

596
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 1: the wall and the bigger thing, and then he said

597
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: radical Islamic terrorism, and then he repeated it and like

598
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 1: it wasn't even sentences or complete thoughts or policies or

599
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: just the words, and it framed the entire enemy as

600
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 1: the wall is what protect against the Mexicans and immigrants

601
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: and the muslim men, and radical Islamic terrorism is what

602
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: all Muslims. But intolerance isn't only on the right. And

603
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: I'm not drawing a moral it's a human condition. Equivalence, yes,

604
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: Because you know, Louis Farrakhan is back in the news.

605
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: He's the long time left wing Nation of Islam leader

606
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: with a history of virulent anti Semitic comments, and he's

607
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: been embraced by some liberal members of Congress who won't

608
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: repudiate him and and or an is er of the

609
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: Women's March. How should moderate Muslims moderate white, it's moderate.

610
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: Anybody's deal with Ferricon at this moment. I agree with

611
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 1: you that bigotry outright. You should have a consistent standard,

612
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: not double standards. So if you're deeply and morally offended

613
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 1: by anti Semitism, you should be deeply and morally offended

614
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 1: by anti black racism. Should be deeply and morally offended

615
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: by Slamophobia across the board. And I mean that across

616
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 1: the board, because if you're not, then you're a hypocrite

617
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: and you should be called out for the hypocrite that

618
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 1: you are when it comes to the anti Semitism of

619
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: Lewis Ferricon. First and foremost, I only represent myself, not

620
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 1: one point seven billion people. I only represent the six

621
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: moderate Muslims on Earth. Apparently. Uh, it's wrong. It should

622
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: be condemned, period. It's wrong. Period. But number two to

623
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: your question, why do people associate with the n O

624
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: I Nation of Islam and Louis Ferricon. You have to

625
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: know the history of America right and when it comes

626
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,399
Speaker 1: to black not just black Muslims, but black Americans. The

627
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 1: n o Y for decades taught respect, uh, talked entrepreneurship

628
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: within the black community, talked about protecting ourselves because the local,

629
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 1: state and federal government abandoned Black communities. And when it

630
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 1: came to Tamika Malory, one of the leaders of the

631
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 1: Women's March, she lost her father at a young age,

632
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: and she says openly, if it wasn't for the n

633
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 1: Y community, I would be lost. They really helped me

634
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: and so many other Black individuals because they were self reliant.

635
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 1: They taught us to lift our head up, they taught

636
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 1: to invest back in the community and so forth. So

637
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: that's why these ties are so deep in the Black

638
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 1: communities in America. And number three is double standards, double standards,

639
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,399
Speaker 1: double standards. Look, if we want all Muslims and black

640
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: people to condemn the anti semitism Lewis farkon, fine, But

641
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:51,320
Speaker 1: then I want my moderate Whites and moderate Christians to

642
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: stand up condemned the hateful comments of Jerry Foldwill JR.

643
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: Franklin Graham, Donald Trump, and a lot of the other

644
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,280
Speaker 1: religious leaders who have said horribly time Muslim, anti Semitic,

645
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 1: anti Black, and anti woman. That's just me as a

646
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: modern Muslim. Yeah, I honestly would never say anything about

647
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: someone who has dedicated his life to uplifting the black

648
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,720
Speaker 1: community until say anything, you wouldn't condemn his amit until

649
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: black people receive reparations in this country. I really and

650
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: honestly and truly believe that Um somebody who is doing

651
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 1: his best to uplift his people, Like I have no

652
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: place nitpicking and criticizing him and what he's doing. I

653
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: don't agree with his positions. I don't agree with some

654
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 1: of the things that he says, but he is trying

655
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: to uplift his people, people who have been forgotten, abused, enslaved,

656
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 1: and so I'm not It's not my job to condemn him.

657
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 1: It's not my job to go out of my way

658
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 1: to to speak on a topic where I'm not um

659
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 1: a scholar, Right, all I am is a Muslim, and

660
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 1: where I see injustice, I'm going to call it out

661
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: and literally until black people receive reparations. It's not my place.

662
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: Do you Rewelsh, Do you think that's not your job?

663
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:21,919
Speaker 1: I will, I will push back on that that Mona

664
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:23,839
Speaker 1: has her point, But like I think you can do

665
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: both at the same time. You can say, Okay, this

666
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,320
Speaker 1: individual has uplifted the community, and there's a unique narrative

667
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: with this community in America that you have to understand

668
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 1: why they're black leaders who can't just say I'm going

669
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 1: to completely condemn, then know why because they have done

670
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: a lot of good. And at the same time, you

671
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 1: can say, I condemn the hateful comments that Lewis Farrikon makes.

672
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 1: It's just not anti Semitic comments, but also racist comments,

673
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: also homophobic comments. I'm perfectly fine saying that's wrong. And

674
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 1: I'm not a spokesperson for a Slummer, Muslims, or or

675
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 1: even for myself. Like I don't need to have an

676
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: opinion on Louis Farrikon and what he's doing. I'm not

677
00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 1: a part of I'm not a member of that community,

678
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: you know what I'm mean. I don't have any ties

679
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: to him and what he's doing, what he's saying. I

680
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: am not an anti Semi. My husband is half Jewish um.

681
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: We go to the Rubenstein Thanksgiving every year like that's

682
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: my that's those are my loves. People who practice Judaism

683
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,399
Speaker 1: like so for me, it's not it's not that I'm

684
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,439
Speaker 1: choosing one or the other. It's just not my job

685
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 1: to condemn him until black people receive reparations, it's not

686
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 1: my job. But I think as as an American if

687
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 1: if I don't have a place in the evangelical community, right,

688
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,479
Speaker 1: I'm not an evangelical. But if I hear that type

689
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 1: of hateful language coming from an evangelical leader, and as

690
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,280
Speaker 1: a Muslim, if I hear it from a Muslim leader,

691
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 1: if I hear from a Jewish American leader and it's hateful,

692
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: I believe there is uh a shared value of morality,

693
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: I think, or a shared equal standard here in America

694
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 1: that we should be able to say, I condemn that bigotry,

695
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 1: and I hope you stand up and condemned my bigree

696
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 1: that's against my people, that's my There is an interesting like,

697
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: even with the clasps, even with the clapping in this room,

698
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 1: there's an interesting like white adjacent cy um. I'm not

699
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 1: a critical race theorist, so don't take everything I say

700
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 1: um too seriously, but you know, it's okay, like with

701
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 1: my pale skin to say something like this, but reparations

702
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: don't get a clap, do you know what I mean? Like? No, honestly,

703
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 1: And that's a real problem, you know, until we really

704
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 1: face some of the historical trauma in this country, I

705
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:31,439
Speaker 1: feel like we have no place criticizing a man who

706
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 1: is doing his utmost to uplift his community, even if

707
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: he is possibly a little senile, like I don't know,

708
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,439
Speaker 1: I don't know him, do you know what I mean?

709
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: So it's not my place. Let's go. Let's go from

710
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:45,839
Speaker 1: the political to the personal, because I know you all

711
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 1: wanted to part of I think not only getting to

712
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: know someone who's Muslim, but also getting to understand their

713
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 1: lives and and and getting to know them on a

714
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 1: personal level is so critical. And you know, one of

715
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: the things that we've talked about is you you have

716
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 1: you're in an interfaith marriage. Your husband converted, So tell

717
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 1: us what that was like and how you were accepted

718
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 1: by his family and how your family accepted him. Lona,

719
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 1: So his my husband's name, Sebastian. Um. He's a beautiful, tall,

720
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: blue eyed white man, martial. Yeah, I hit the jackpot

721
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: according to all Syrians, right, Um. But you know, he

722
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: practiced Judaism for for a little while to kind of

723
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 1: see if he could honor his grandparents and live that

724
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 1: life in a spiritual way and didn't ultimately connect to it,

725
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 1: and then practice Buddhism for a while. And we actually

726
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: met at a commune where we both lived in Intentional

727
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 1: Community Center. And I never first saw myself with a

728
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: white man. I you know, like I know I have

729
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: this pale skin, and but really and truly I didn't

730
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: believe that like a white man could understand me. And

731
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: like my very Arab family and like we're loud and

732
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: we laugh very loudly, and we eat like Arab food,

733
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 1: and yeah, it was just this this really interesting thing

734
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 1: when you know, he's like, I grew up with a

735
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: lot of Muslims, my best friend is a Muslim, and

736
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 1: now you're showing up in my life, and I don't

737
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 1: know what to do with that. And then we we

738
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: we you know, had this intensive with a really beautiful

739
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 1: Sufi and he was like, I feel my heart being

740
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 1: called to this thing. I just want you to know

741
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,919
Speaker 1: that I think I'm going to become Muslim, Like, don't

742
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 1: get scared, you know. And because he knew, like I

743
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 1: knew that if he became Muslim, that I would really

744
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 1: just like fall in love with him. And when that happened, um,

745
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: you know, it was it was over for me. Anyways.

746
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 1: And you know, his mother is Episcopalian, his father is

747
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 1: an atheist Jew, And how do they feel about you.

748
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 1: I think it's a big old love fest, to be honest.

749
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: You know, food got better. There's did That's what I'm saying. Yeah, Yeah,

750
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,879
Speaker 1: I feel like it's a lot of love and and

751
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,240
Speaker 1: just like what I hope for the future of my children,

752
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: like to witness people who don't necessarily share the same

753
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 1: practices to come together in familial bonds and ties and

754
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 1: to say like we love each other and we're doing

755
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 1: this for love through love, you know. And my family

756
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: loved him right away. My dad was like a plus

757
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: personality and yeah, and it was over, you know. You know, Um,

758
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 1: I wanted to show the clip if you singing wrap

759
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 1: My Job, which I walk around my apartment singing wrap

760
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 1: my hit job. It's quite an earworm for me. So

761
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:50,439
Speaker 1: let's roll that all around the world. Love every mid ning.

762
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 1: So even if you feel lucky jabra lucky jab lucky

763
00:44:56,520 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 1: jab rap jab jacks Wagon, big swag and Russian jeg.

764
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are confused about jobs

765
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:10,720
Speaker 1: and they don't understand sort the whole tradition of covering.

766
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: So can you tell us quickly, Mona, why you cover

767
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 1: and why this is important to other Muslim women as

768
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 1: well and to some it's not. Yeah, I think for

769
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 1: every Muslim woman you ask, you would get a different answer.

770
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: A lot of Muslim women say that they dressed this

771
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 1: way because it's modest and they believe in modesty. For me,

772
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 1: I honestly would liken it to like taking on a

773
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 1: practice of meditation, for instance. For me, it's a spiritual practice,

774
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 1: a recognition every day that I am not just a

775
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 1: physical body, that I am an intellect, a heart, a

776
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 1: spirit um, that I have all of these entry points

777
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,439
Speaker 1: to my being um, and that I, like India Ari says,

778
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 1: I am not my hair, you know, and so to

779
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: truly embody that and to invite people to know me

780
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: as more than just my body. First. So we live

781
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: in a consumerist world, you know, the world where things

782
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 1: are bought and sold, including bodies, and for me it's

783
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: really um an act of resistance in a lot of

784
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 1: ways to that world. And to say that my body

785
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: um is not up for consumption, that I choose when

786
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 1: and where I do what I want with my body

787
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 1: right that for me, For me, hey, jab is a

788
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: is a tool of liberation. And I know that's not

789
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: necessarily true for for women all over the world, but

790
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 1: I truly believe that in its purest iteration and intention,

791
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 1: that's what it is. It's an act of liberation from

792
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 1: the oppression um, the oppressive belief that we are just

793
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 1: these bodies. Which is so interesting because certainly counterintuitive for

794
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 1: a lot of people when they see certain majority Muslim

795
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 1: countries forcing women to do this, But for you, it's

796
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 1: actually the opposite. It is a sign of liberation versus oppression,

797
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 1: which is very different in other countries. Yeah, and I

798
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 1: think it's really interesting the way religion is weaponized all

799
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: over the world, you know, and used to oppress and

800
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: control instead of you know, I'm a student of religion,

801
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,720
Speaker 1: and so I have come to believe that these wisdom

802
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: traditions contain liberation. You know, that they are liberatory in

803
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 1: their most in the most beautiful sense of liberation. You

804
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 1: know what, what do you think is the one thing

805
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: you would like this audience and our podcast listeners to

806
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 1: walk away with and to know as a result of

807
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 1: this conversation, the most important thing that they should keep

808
00:47:55,000 --> 00:48:00,359
Speaker 1: in mind when they're looking at listening Americans and they're

809
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 1: getting this information from the media, from the President, from

810
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: various sources, from packs, from uh, you know, right wing extremists,

811
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 1: what what how do you counter that? And what would

812
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 1: you say to people? If you aren't writing your story,

813
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:18,839
Speaker 1: your story is always being written for you by others.

814
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: And if you aren't telling your story, a story is

815
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 1: always being told to you by others. And for many Muslims,

816
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 1: our story has been told to us by others, and

817
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 1: we've emerged as the sidekicks or the footnotes or the

818
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 1: antagonists of the American narrative. And instead of looking at

819
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 1: us as being either exceptional or terrifying, if you can

820
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 1: look at us as your neighbor, your friend, your partner,

821
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 1: the person who drives your uber, the person who probably

822
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 1: fixed your heart, the person who makes a mean sharma.

823
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 1: Look at us as co protagonists of the American narrative.

824
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 1: And yes, there are some dark days here, but like

825
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 1: I said before, a crisis presents an opportunity. And what

826
00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 1: we're witnessing right now, and this is very exciting for

827
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:00,840
Speaker 1: me because I was born in this country is a

828
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:04,399
Speaker 1: multicultural coalition of the willing rising. And I see other

829
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 1: people carrying other people's waters, and so let me carry

830
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 1: your water, you carry my water, and let's eat some

831
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 1: tasty food together and make America delicious. That's my take.

832
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 1: It's better for all of our kids. I mean that sincerely.

833
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: And on that same note, I think it's I would

834
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 1: hope that people walked away really understanding that homophobia, transphobia,

835
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 1: fat phobia, xenophobia, um so, homophobia, racism, sexism, they're all

836
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:41,360
Speaker 1: the same disease. They're intent on dividing, their intent on

837
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 1: seeing um some as less or not valuable or not

838
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 1: worthy of love. And my hope is that people will

839
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 1: understand that we can transcend that and that love is

840
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 1: so much more fun, you know, um, love is so

841
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 1: much sweeter. Thank you so much, as always to the

842
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: team that makes it happen every week, our producer Gianna Palmer,

843
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 1: our audio engineer Jared O'Connell, and our assistant producer Nora Richie.

844
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:22,359
Speaker 1: Thanks also to our social media wiz Alison Bresnik at

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Speaker 1: Emily Beana and bethams over at Katie Curric Media. Katie

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Speaker 1: and I are the show's executive producers, and Mark Phillips

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Speaker 1: wrote our theme music. You can find me on social

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Speaker 1: media under Katie Curic and Brian tweets from the handle

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Speaker 1: goldsmith b and he tweets up a storm so you

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Speaker 1: all should follow him be spun to follow anyway. We'll

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Speaker 1: talk to you next week. Thanks as always for listening. Bye,