Speaker 1: Good morning everyone. I hope you are watching Saturday Morning
Speaker 1: Cartoons or maybe the Muppets, because this one is all
Speaker 1: about Jim Henson. I'm often asked what our favorite episodes
Speaker 1: are when we do the Q and A at live shows,
Speaker 1: and many, many times I go back to the ones
Speaker 1: on the Muppets and Jim Henson because he was just
Speaker 1: one of the best. This is from January sixth, twenty fifteen,
Speaker 1: how Jim Henson worked American Hero. That's not part of
Speaker 1: the title. That's just me. Welcome to stuff you should
Speaker 1: know a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with
Speaker 2: Charles W Chuck Bryant. How do you and Jerry for
Speaker 2: the last time this year? Yes, just informed us and
Speaker 2: she's all smiles. She is not very nice, Jerry.
Speaker 1: How'd you like that presentation earlier?
Speaker 2: The sensitivity training?
Speaker 1: Huh?
Speaker 2: It was great.
Speaker 1: Yes, people, Because we worked for a corporation, we have
Speaker 1: things like sensitivity trainings.
Speaker 2: Uh huh.
Speaker 1: And in those trainings you get shown video examples of
Speaker 1: various forms of harassment and they are the best, most
Speaker 1: fun things to watch.
Speaker 2: Ever, they're pretty overt.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I could watch those all day. Long.
Speaker 2: I was wondering how much that production company made from that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know they did, but like five little vignettes. They
Speaker 2: I'm sure they paid the actors like literal peanuts.
Speaker 1: They were bad actors.
Speaker 2: They were like, kid, there's the peanut bucket over there,
Speaker 2: you can pay yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the old The one that really got me was
Speaker 1: the Actually they were all really funny, but the one
Speaker 1: with the old guy in the uh in the factory
Speaker 1: loading boxes like a shipping warehouse, right, and they were
Speaker 1: giving the old man a hard time about everything because
Speaker 1: he was old. Yeah, because he's old, and you know,
Speaker 1: they were given a hard time. So he and he
Speaker 1: was out of work for a while and they had
Speaker 1: to cover for him. The old man, and he had
Speaker 1: the back brace on. Did you notice that? And he
Speaker 1: just looked on his face. He just kept getting a
Speaker 1: little more like Poudy the whole time. Yeah. I was like, dude,
Speaker 1: that's good acting. Stick up for yourself. Tell these young
Speaker 1: kids you know what to do.
Speaker 2: The back brace prevents him from it.
Speaker 1: Anyway. I just had to bring that up because I
Speaker 1: just think that stuff is so funny. And what's funny
Speaker 1: is people really do some of that stuff that you're like, what,
Speaker 1: there's some creeps out there. That was a really weird
Speaker 1: setup for Jim Henson, because he's the least harassing guy
Speaker 1: he was probably ever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he certainly comes across that way.
Speaker 1: He's a genuinely good dude. It's not one of these
Speaker 1: stories you hear about, like maybe some of your favorite
Speaker 1: children's books writers or cartoonists or something, maybe we're kind
Speaker 1: of bad people.
Speaker 2: No, apparently not at all. Yeah, he was not. Only
Speaker 2: so there's a lot of in this article. John No, John,
Speaker 2: I thought John Strickland wrote it. It turns out that's
Speaker 2: not the case. I'm surprised because he's friends with or
Speaker 2: down with at least one of Jim Henson's kids I
Speaker 2: believe lives here in Atlanta.
Speaker 1: Oh wow.
Speaker 2: And but in this article, it's one of those things
Speaker 2: where everybody who compliments Jim Henson, who worked with him,
Speaker 2: they they go to the trouble of complimenting him in
Speaker 2: a way that's not just like, oh, he was such
Speaker 2: a great guy. They all back up just a little
Speaker 2: bit because they're cognizant that that doesn't get it across sure,
Speaker 2: and they want you to understand that they're talking about
Speaker 2: more than just the great guy. Like, oh, he's dead
Speaker 2: and I'm not gonna speak ill of the dead. And
Speaker 2: he was a great guy. And that's a really thoughtless, polite,
Speaker 2: inoffensive thing to say. Sure, So, like frank Oz said
Speaker 2: something like he was a he was a great guy.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, you know, he was a human,
Speaker 2: but he was still a really great guy, right, So,
Speaker 2: like what you're thinking of is a great guy. Get
Speaker 2: rid of that and actually replace it with a genuine
Speaker 2: human great guy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because as a filmmaker, he's a puppeteer obviously, but
Speaker 1: he was a filmmaker first and foremost, which a lot
Speaker 1: of people kind of forget about. Yeah. Oh yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a tough, tough job, super stressful, and you and I
Speaker 1: have seen it can make good guys and good ladies
Speaker 1: be real jerks and yell under stressful situations. You know,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a tough thing. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: money on the line each day, and uh.
Speaker 2: It's like everybody, relax, it's just millions of dollars.
Speaker 1: But frank Oz, I think that's the point he was making,
Speaker 1: Like even when he would get frustrated and stress like that,
Speaker 1: it was he was still a good guy behind it all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I read I read an I guess it
Speaker 2: was a book review of a biography about him that
Speaker 2: that showed that it was all somebody said it was
Speaker 2: all just play to him. Yeah, like work was play.
Speaker 2: Even though he worked really hard, he was able to
Speaker 2: commit himself like that to his work because to him,
Speaker 2: he was having the time of his life all the time.
Speaker 2: And apparently like there was just there was no line
Speaker 2: between work and play, which now that we've seen that
Speaker 2: sensitivity training could have gotten him in a lot of
Speaker 2: big you know, a lot of trouble. But he he
Speaker 2: just enjoyed the life that he had from what I understand,
Speaker 2: love cars. Yeah, he had like a lotus that was
Speaker 2: the same color as Kermit the Frog. He had a
Speaker 2: Rolls Royce early on from his work. Yeah, let's talk
Speaker 2: about let's talk about the guy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if you haven't, I just need to
Speaker 1: go ahead and say, if you haven't listened to the
Speaker 1: episode on the Muppets, this is a what I consider
Speaker 1: just a more in depth part two on the man himself.
Speaker 1: But that's one of our favorite all time episodes and
Speaker 1: from feedback, one of the great all time fan episodes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a great episode.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was just a lot of fun. And so
Speaker 1: I hope this augments that one. I hope we do
Speaker 1: it justice.
Speaker 2: So that's actually one of the reasons why we can
Speaker 2: do this episode, because we already did a Muppets episode and.
Speaker 1: They tweeted about us. Do you remember the Henson Company did? Yeah,
Speaker 1: they did, which was they approve huge. It got their
Speaker 1: actual approval. That's right, man, that was something the Muppets
Speaker 1: episodes its own thing. It's about Muppets.
Speaker 2: This is about Jim Henson, and it's appropriate that we're
Speaker 2: doing this because he was more than just the Muppets.
Speaker 2: Even though everybody pegs him with the Muppets and like
Speaker 2: that is a huge thing. He was more than that.
Speaker 2: And like you said, he was a filmmaker but originally
Speaker 2: started out as a puppetsier, but kind of a reluctant one.
Speaker 1: Yeah. He was born in nineteen thirty six September twenty fourth,
Speaker 1: James Mauri Henson m A U R Y in Mississippi,
Speaker 1: and his grandmother, maternal grandmother was a painter and a
Speaker 1: quilter and a needle worker, and apparently it was a
Speaker 1: big inspiration to him to seek out the creative in life, right,
Speaker 1: which is pretty great.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and one of the one of the things he
Speaker 2: got into. Well, he was originally a kind of a
Speaker 2: fan of ventriloquism a little bit, but he said later
Speaker 2: on in life that he was never he was never
Speaker 2: like obsessed with puppets or anything like that like you
Speaker 2: would have expected him to be. And as he went
Speaker 2: to college, I think in Maryland, he he got into
Speaker 2: He started out as a studio artist, that's what he
Speaker 2: was studying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he loved television above all else, right, from the
Speaker 1: time he was a little kid. He was just transfixed
Speaker 1: by the tube.
Speaker 2: He almost kind of made himself destined to be on
Speaker 2: television by being obsessed with it. Yeah, but he kind
Speaker 2: of stumbled into puppetry in college, and he started out
Speaker 2: as a studio art major and ended up graduating with
Speaker 2: a homech degree because homech was the only degree that
Speaker 2: offered puppet making courses.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he majored or he took a puppetry course at first,
Speaker 1: and then a bunch of textiles and crafts courses, which
Speaker 1: is a great way to you know, start building and
Speaker 1: making your own puppets. Right.
Speaker 2: So, but he graduated with a home ch degree, but
Speaker 2: by the time he graduated, he was already extremely successful.
Speaker 2: The Rolls Royce that I mentioned he bought in time
Speaker 2: to drive to his college graduation. Yeah, because he'd already
Speaker 2: created successful shows in his town.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think he was in high school. He was
Speaker 1: on the local TV station doing little guest spots, and
Speaker 1: then in nineteen fifty five, the show Salmon Friends debuted,
Speaker 1: and that you know, he also did work on the
Speaker 1: side making money with them. I think he did some
Speaker 1: of the like really cool concert posters of the day,
Speaker 1: really colorful silk screen posters, and Salmon Friends did really well,
Speaker 1: but he still wasn't quite sure, Like I still don't
Speaker 1: know if I want to. You know, my filmmaker, I
Speaker 1: did these short films, really sort of weird, abstract short films, live.
Speaker 2: Action, experimental, so totally experimental. Did you see the time Piece?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that one was pretty cool.
Speaker 1: It was great in its way.
Speaker 2: And did you see the Cube? I watched parts of
Speaker 2: the Cube that was Did you see the end? No, Oh,
Speaker 2: you've got to see the end. I skipped the middle
Speaker 2: because I was like, Okay, I get where you're going
Speaker 2: with this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we should just set it up real quick.
Speaker 1: The Cube was a show on NBC. It was a
Speaker 1: one hour.
Speaker 2: Show in nineteen sixty nine.
Speaker 1: The name of the show NBC did was called uh
Speaker 1: Experiment in Television and it was a different thing each week.
Speaker 1: And he had one week's installment called The Cube, which
Speaker 1: was a guy just stuck in a white room but
Speaker 1: other people could come in and out of the room,
Speaker 1: but he could not, right.
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, and he starts to go kind of crazy,
Speaker 2: and it has the look and feel of a color
Speaker 2: TV ad, like all lots of over acting in like
Speaker 2: Carol Burnett esque characters and stuff like that. But yeah,
Speaker 2: the sentiment behind it and like that, everything behind it
Speaker 2: is really neat and it really gives you a good,
Speaker 2: an eye opening example of like what Jim Henson was
Speaker 2: capable of, but also like what he was into, because
Speaker 2: you know, when you think of him, you think of
Speaker 2: muppets in Sesame Street in particular.
Speaker 1: Sure, and these are weird abstract art films, not unlike
Speaker 1: you know, you watch like a Jim Morrison art film
Speaker 1: from film school and it's kind of the same style.
Speaker 1: You know, that was what was going on back then. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and he actually got nominated for an Academy Award for
Speaker 1: time Piece.
Speaker 2: I think Jim Hooinson, Jim Henson had Jim Morrison beat
Speaker 2: by a mile as far as experimental films went.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with you there. So, like I said,
Speaker 1: he wasn't quite convinced that puppetry was his future because
Speaker 1: he was a filmmaker and he was like, puppets are
Speaker 1: still kind of kids. But post college he did the
Speaker 1: Old Tour of Europe, and in Europe, puppeteering is a
Speaker 1: whole different business. It was a lot more serious and
Speaker 1: a lot more I guess it was.
Speaker 2: Treated as art.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, and he said, you know what, I Am
Speaker 1: going to give this a shot. Came back to the US,
Speaker 1: married Jane, and even though he and Jane separated, they
Speaker 1: never divorced.
Speaker 2: Oh really I thought they did.
Speaker 1: No, they never fulfilled the divorce. They just stayed separated.
Speaker 1: And then he started making TV commercials and formed his
Speaker 1: own company in nineteen sixty three with I don't know
Speaker 1: if he formed it with Frank Oz, but he hired
Speaker 1: Frank Oz and Jerry Jewel, who ended up being obviously
Speaker 1: legendary puppeteers.
Speaker 2: And lifelong collaborators of his.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But he started out making a basically a puppet
Speaker 2: based commercial ad agency in New York, Yes, in nineteen
Speaker 2: sixty three.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they weren't making funny commercials back then. So
Speaker 1: he was really pretty revolutionary right time.
Speaker 2: And they, I mean, they did pretty well for themselves.
Speaker 2: And one of the smartest moves he made early on
Speaker 2: was all of his contracts said that he retained the
Speaker 2: rights to any of the creations he made for these companies. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so he was creating what some of the things that
Speaker 2: would later become famous muppets, Like the Cookie Monster was
Speaker 2: originally made for a chip maker. It was this puppet
Speaker 2: that couldn't get enough of these chips.
Speaker 1: Yeah. He was the wheel stealer and he stole cheese wheels.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, that's what it was. Yeah, and he ended
Speaker 2: up being the Cookie Monster. And the reason he ended
Speaker 2: up being the Cookie Monsters because Jim Henson retained the
Speaker 2: rights to that creation.
Speaker 1: That was he was a very savvy business guy too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was he was using somebody else's dime,
Speaker 2: these advertisers, yeah, like budgets to kind of hash out
Speaker 2: and form and make his muppets. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Rocked the Dog started out on Purina commercials and was
Speaker 1: later a sidekick on the Jimmy Dean Show in nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty three.
Speaker 2: Which I remember that from the Muppets episode Rolf was
Speaker 2: the first big Muppet. Then he's such like a bit
Speaker 2: character now, yeah that you know, it's just mind boggling
Speaker 2: to think he was the one that started it all,
Speaker 2: even before Kermit, before Big Bird. It was Rolf.
Speaker 1: Kermit kind of stole the show.
Speaker 2: I think, Yeah, we'll talk a little more about Kermit
Speaker 2: and where he came from right after this.
Speaker 1: All right, So it's nineteen sixty nine and a very
Speaker 1: very big thing happens to Jim Henson. He was invited
Speaker 1: to be on the pilot of a show created by
Speaker 1: the Children's Television Workshop called Sesame Street. Not created, some
Speaker 1: people think he did, but he did make his mark
Speaker 1: by creating most of the iconic characters. And if you
Speaker 1: were a fan of the old Sesame Streets back then,
Speaker 1: all not all, but many of those little short films,
Speaker 1: the little claymation ones or the live actions. He directed
Speaker 1: those as well. Yeah, which is pretty cool. I never
Speaker 1: knew that.
Speaker 2: I think I knew that, did you. Yeah? He was
Speaker 2: he was our Russ Vict, you know, he was their
Speaker 2: Russ Vic.
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 2: Russ Vic is ours, That's right, So, Chuck, the whole
Speaker 2: thing that changed everything for him was Sesame Street. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he's not a He wasn't a creator of Sesame Street.
Speaker 2: They hired him on and they actually kind of won
Speaker 2: him over because remember, one of the things that Jim
Speaker 2: Henson always struggled with his whole career was he wanted
Speaker 2: to explore places that puppets had never really gone to,
Speaker 2: in themes that they hadn't gone to, at least not
Speaker 2: in the modern age. Sure, but he was fighting against
Speaker 2: them not being taken seriously.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't like he was anti puppet by any
Speaker 1: means he was or anti kids because one of the
Speaker 1: big reasons he signed on with Children's Television Workshop was
Speaker 1: their goal to educate kids meant a lot to him.
Speaker 1: But like you said, I think to merge those worlds
Speaker 1: successfully was a big part of his goal and struggle
Speaker 1: for a little while.
Speaker 2: Russ Vick, by the way, made the little interstitial things
Speaker 2: for the stuff you should know, televisions, Yeah, the animations,
Speaker 2: which is why I reference him.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So the Children's Television Workshop, which is now called the
Speaker 2: Sesame Workshop. Yeah, from what I understand, they won them
Speaker 2: over big time. He makes all of these characters from
Speaker 2: like Big Bird, and I think Kermit came before Sesame
Speaker 2: Street and he started out I think we talked about
Speaker 2: this in The Muppet episode two. He started out looking
Speaker 2: really weird, Yeah, like a lizard on this Yeah, not
Speaker 2: cool at all, like really kind of freaky.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is something.
Speaker 2: That I now that I know a little more about
Speaker 2: Jim Henson, I think maybe he might have even been
Speaker 2: going for. But one of the things that Sesame Street
Speaker 2: allowed him to do was to really kind of explore
Speaker 2: something that he'd long been obsessed with, which was television
Speaker 2: and where it converged with puppets, which was all new territory,
Speaker 2: and Jim Henson was at the bleeding edge of it
Speaker 2: because if you think about it, when you go to
Speaker 2: a puppet show live, you know, you're you're looking at
Speaker 2: what's essentially a mechanism for hiding the human and there's
Speaker 2: just a little area that the puppet can move.
Speaker 1: Around in tiny fixed age.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So Jim Henson stepped back and said, Okay,
Speaker 2: the television is that little tiny area that the puppet
Speaker 2: can stay, can move around in, but it also opens
Speaker 2: up the whole world for a puppet because you're using
Speaker 2: camera angles and there's editing and it's not in person.
Speaker 1: Just frame out the people.
Speaker 2: So and again we talked about this in the Muppet episode.
Speaker 2: He created something called platforming up, Yeah, to where the
Speaker 2: puppeteers no longer had to like crouch down and to
Speaker 2: maneuver the puppets.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because he was a tall guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, tall and lanky man. He was skinny.
Speaker 1: Oh, those running shots and time piece exactly because he
Speaker 1: was in it. They were hysterical.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he weighs about seventy pounds somehow, big lanky legs.
Speaker 2: But so Yeah, the performers could stand up, which was
Speaker 2: a huge weight off.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, because you're working with cameras
Speaker 2: and stuff like that, and they have the whole universe
Speaker 2: to move around in and Jim Henson wanted him to
Speaker 2: move around as much as possible. It also put him
Speaker 2: in some weird positions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you ever well, some people might think it's
Speaker 1: like kind of ruining the thing, but I think it's
Speaker 1: really neat. If you just look up on Google images Muppets,
Speaker 1: Muppet Show behind the scenes pictures, yeah, and it'll show
Speaker 1: the stage sets you know, like six feet off the ground, right,
Speaker 1: all the people standing beneath. I think it's awesome to
Speaker 1: look at. But some people don't, like you know, they
Speaker 1: want to keep that illusion alive. So depending on what
Speaker 1: kind of person you are, either seek that out or don't.
Speaker 2: And we gave that warning in the Muppets episode too,
Speaker 2: did we. Yeah, Yeah, I think they're really cool pictures.
Speaker 1: I agree, because you know, a lot of times they're
Speaker 1: looking at uh, they're looking at video monitors standing there
Speaker 1: contorted using both hands right. Like the way puppeteers work together,
Speaker 1: to me is just a miracle because they're acting as
Speaker 1: the puppets, but they're moving still moving among one another
Speaker 1: as humans right underneath, which can be really complicated. In fact,
Speaker 1: we know some really really talented puppeteers here in Atlanta.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Center for Puppetry Arts is yeah, I think
Speaker 2: the nation's largest puppet puppeteer organization.
Speaker 1: Yep. And that is where we had our TV show
Speaker 1: debut party, premiere party. Yeah, Like it was a really
Speaker 1: cool experience. Like Auto in the Gang are right there
Speaker 1: on display. I think the Hinson and Kermit cut the
Speaker 1: ribbon for the grand opening back when it opened and
Speaker 1: ended up donating like five hundred puppets and muppets to
Speaker 1: the Center for Puppetry Arts. So if you ever visit Atlanta,
Speaker 1: people always email us and say what should we do?
Speaker 1: I highly recommend going and checking out the Center for
Speaker 1: Puppetry Arts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they have a museum with, like you said,
Speaker 2: Emmitt otderxy stuff, like a full sized life size sketchy
Speaker 2: yeah behind glass, scary as you can imagine.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But I was talking about Raymond Carr, our friend
Speaker 1: who I hate to keep bringing up the TV show,
Speaker 1: but it all kind of overlaps. He was a production
Speaker 1: designer for Stuff you Should Know on Science Channel, and
Speaker 1: he and his friends Brandon and the gang are amazing
Speaker 1: puppeteers and they're doing some really really leading edge, like
Speaker 1: cool stuff here in Atlanta. Yeah, like these giant puppets
Speaker 1: operated like, you know, fifteen foot tall puppets operated by
Speaker 1: like six and eight people. Have you ever seen the
Speaker 1: spaceman that they do. No, man, it's unbelievable. It's really cool.
Speaker 1: It's like, I don't know how tall he is, he
Speaker 1: seems like he's twenty feet tall. And they know do
Speaker 1: these at parades and stuff, and it's just really really
Speaker 1: cool stuff.
Speaker 2: That's awesome.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but Henson is a huge inspiration to them obviously.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. I think anybody who works even remotely in
Speaker 2: puppets has gotta be inspired by Jim Hinton. One of
Speaker 2: the other things that he came up with was that
Speaker 2: was based on putting muppets or puppets on TV. Was
Speaker 2: using softer materials. Yeah, everything else was like up to
Speaker 2: that point, stiff Wood, Marionette's Ventriloquist dummies, that kind of stuff, right.
Speaker 2: He used like foam, and it allowed the puppets themselves
Speaker 2: to have more expressive faces, which was great for close
Speaker 2: up on TV. Yeah, absolutely, And it also I mean
Speaker 2: now looking back, you just are like, well, yeah, of course,
Speaker 2: it's what puppets do.
Speaker 1: That's what I know.
Speaker 2: But that was Jim Henson that came up with that,
Speaker 2: and it changed everything because it took something like, I mean,
Speaker 2: imagine Howdy Doty. He was like, yeah, it's cool, you know,
Speaker 2: it's Howdy doty or whatever. But yeah, whether close up
Speaker 2: or far away, he looked exactly the same. It was
Speaker 2: like a woodhead with like a moving lower jaw. And
Speaker 2: you know, he gave you nightmares with Kermit the Frog
Speaker 2: or something like that. The fact that he could have
Speaker 2: different expressions and react differently, and his emotions could be
Speaker 2: shown on his face. That made him that much more popular,
Speaker 2: that much more approachable, sure to people who were into
Speaker 2: him absolutely, which is everybody.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, show me someone who doesn't like Muppets in
Speaker 1: any form. I get it. If you don't like it anymore, maybe,
Speaker 1: but your heart is cold and dead inside for a while.
Speaker 1: And this is something I don't think I knew. He
Speaker 1: dabbled on Saturday Night Live in season one. Lord Michael's
Speaker 1: got him a deal to perform some sketches, and ultimately
Speaker 1: it wasn't a huge success, and it wasn't the greatest marriage,
Speaker 1: but it was pretty cool that he was seeking out,
Speaker 1: you know, different avenues to get those puppets on television.
Speaker 1: It was, And his big break came in nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 1: He wanted to make The Muppet Show and he had
Speaker 1: a lot of trouble in the US still, yeah, even
Speaker 1: though he had his various successes on commercials and stuff.
Speaker 1: So he had to go to London and a TV
Speaker 1: producer named Lord lou Grade gave him a deal with
Speaker 1: grades ATV Studios. Said, you know what, you can make
Speaker 1: your show. And the Muppet Show was born, Oh yeah
Speaker 1: about it being about a boom.
Speaker 2: That was it. That was it. And you can really
Speaker 2: see Jim Henson's love of variety shows and just kind
Speaker 2: of well, just the stage in The Muppet Show, because
Speaker 2: if you think about it's set the whole thing set
Speaker 2: backstage at a variety show.
Speaker 1: It's such a great idea. When you look back at it,
Speaker 1: it's like we take it for granted a little bit
Speaker 1: because we were kids, but now as an adult, it's like,
Speaker 1: what a perfect way to frame this world. It's basically
Speaker 1: like thirty rock or thirty Rock was the Muppet.
Speaker 2: Show right with the Muppet Show started all that? Yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't know if Carol Burnett was before the Muppet Show.
Speaker 1: Yeah it was before, was it?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So she did a lot of backstage stuff, didn't
Speaker 2: she U. I wonder who started that.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Hers was more sketch, Yeah, but some.
Speaker 2: Of it was like backstage, was it? I believe? So
Speaker 2: I don't remember that. Thus I'm hallucinating right now.
Speaker 1: They need to have a good old fashioned variety show again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't have those anymore.
Speaker 1: Those were big back in the day, you know, like
Speaker 1: the host comes out and then there's sketches and singing.
Speaker 2: And remember our cabaret, No, it wasn't cabaret. What was
Speaker 2: it the episode we did?
Speaker 1: Oh uh burlesque?
Speaker 2: Burlesque? Yeah, yeah, how that started out in vaudeville and
Speaker 2: burless cad that's where stand up comedy came from. That
Speaker 2: was an interesting episode.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I miss those variety shows though, like the Kenny
Speaker 1: Rogers and Dolly Parton and yeah Cal Burnett all that,
Speaker 1: the band.
Speaker 2: Sisters, Although Kenny and Dolly could just sit on a
Speaker 2: couch and stare at the camera for an hour and
Speaker 2: I'd watch that. Yeah, jer the best great entertainers. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I love those two.
Speaker 1: All right, So where are we in our timeline?
Speaker 2: Well, Chuck, the Muppet Shows just hit.
Speaker 1: Oh that's right.
Speaker 2: Things are going pretty well. They happened going pretty well
Speaker 2: already for Henson. Apparently in nineteen seventy, Rubbert Ducky hit
Speaker 2: number sixteen on the Billboard charts. And for those who
Speaker 2: don't know, Ernie is voiced by Jim Henson. So Jim
Speaker 2: Henson sang a song Rubbert Ducky that made it to
Speaker 2: number sixteen on the Billboard charts, and that was nineteen seventy, a.
Speaker 1: Year after The Cube, before.
Speaker 2: The Muppet Show even happened, before Sesame Street even right,
Speaker 2: Nomestreet was sixty nine out. Okay, yeah, same year as
Speaker 2: The Cube. Wow, that's great, Sey. That the new touchstone
Speaker 2: for his life. The Cube.
Speaker 1: Yeah, PC and BC. So the Muppet Show it was
Speaker 1: a huge hit. It won, you know, a lot of awards,
Speaker 1: It garnered critical praise and won the hearts of children
Speaker 1: all over the world.
Speaker 2: But it was also for adults too. Oh yeah. I
Speaker 2: think that's why he was able to pull it off
Speaker 2: in Great Britain, because they have better senses of humor.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And speaking of adults, he got into some more
Speaker 1: serious themes with his next great show, Fragle Rock. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 2: I never saw a second of that show. Oh man,
Speaker 2: really it wasn't it on HBO?
Speaker 1: Yeah. It was one of the first HBO original series.
Speaker 2: We either had showtime or we didn't have.
Speaker 1: It was awesome. Fragle Rock was great. And the idea
Speaker 1: there is you had the fragle Gang and then you
Speaker 1: had well, you had three different groups. You had the
Speaker 1: Home of Doc who was an inventor, and his dog's Sprocket.
Speaker 1: You had the Fraggles who shared caves underground of Fragle
Speaker 1: Rock with their neighbors, the Doozers and the Gorgs and
Speaker 1: these gigantic creatures that are in Gorg's garden, And the
Speaker 1: whole point of that show was to show how different
Speaker 1: types of people can live together and work together in peace. Right.
Speaker 1: It was really cool. Didn't know it at the time
Speaker 1: when I was, you know, twelve years old, but what
Speaker 1: I was learning about was acceptance. And he won three
Speaker 1: kble Ace Awards five International Emmys in frag O Rock
Speaker 1: was one of the first big hits for HBO as
Speaker 1: far as TV goes. Yeah, great, great show, lots of
Speaker 1: great songs that I mean, he had every kind of
Speaker 1: like reggae, rock, country, bluegrass. Really he was all over
Speaker 1: the map with the music on Fragle Rock.
Speaker 2: And he I mean he wrote a lot of songs too.
Speaker 2: I think he wrote Rubbert Ducky. I'm sure he wrote
Speaker 2: a lot of the stuff on Fragle Rock. It was
Speaker 2: just yet another thing he did was.
Speaker 1: Right music renaissance Man.
Speaker 2: The other show that he came out with in the eighties,
Speaker 2: in the mid eighties that I was big time intwo
Speaker 2: was Muppet Babies.
Speaker 1: I never saw one second of that.
Speaker 2: Man, I love that show.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're just enough of part in age where like
Speaker 1: certain things I saw you I was you were too
Speaker 1: young for, and then certain things I was too old for.
Speaker 2: You know, it's weird, though, I'm just gonna say this.
Speaker 2: So you, me and I are the same age. Her
Speaker 2: sister is like five years younger than us. U and
Speaker 2: I used to love Muppet Babies. Yeah, you and me's
Speaker 2: sister used to watch Muppet Babies, so you may was like,
Speaker 2: why were you watching Muppet Babies if my younger sister was.
Speaker 1: Watching babies and Yummy didn't watch Muppet Baby.
Speaker 2: No, she watched like Donahue or something like that. I
Speaker 2: watched Muppet Babies, And I'm not ashamed anymore to say.
Speaker 1: Well, when was that nineteen eighty four. I was thirteen,
Speaker 1: so yeah, I was just I was starting to be
Speaker 1: a teenager. Muppet Babies didn't appeal.
Speaker 2: I think it was on for like four or five seasons,
Speaker 2: so maybe I was watching it at the beginning of
Speaker 2: the series. Anka was watching it. That's what I've been
Speaker 2: telling you.
Speaker 1: Me and eighty four, you would have been what eight, Oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's perfect age for Muppet Babies.
Speaker 2: So I think I think we just saw it on
Speaker 2: different ends of the series, is what it was? Is
Speaker 2: that what it is? But have you ever heard of
Speaker 2: Ron Funches, Uh yeah, the comedian. Yeah, yeah, he has
Speaker 2: a little bit about Muppet babies. It's pretty hilarious. Really,
Speaker 2: he's awesome. I love that guy. Yeah, we saw him live.
Speaker 2: He's just a beautiful human being.
Speaker 1: Muppet Babies was cartoon though, right right, it was not
Speaker 1: live puppets correct at all.
Speaker 2: No, it was cartoon.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: It was so cute.
Speaker 1: Were they just the regular muppets as babies? Yes, Oh
Speaker 1: well I have to watch that sometime.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they like us their imagination, Like Gonzo had
Speaker 2: a thing for Indiana Jones, so he was frequently like
Speaker 2: exploring caves and like swinging on vines with the Indiana
Speaker 2: Jones fedoran and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: Well, see, I would probably enjoy that, now you would, Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: All right, I'm gonna go get Muppet Babies, Chuck.
Speaker 2: He did even more TV that we'll talk about in
Speaker 2: a second. Okay, okay, okay, and we're back and we're
Speaker 2: still in the eighties.
Speaker 1: That's right. And you were talking about other TV, as
Speaker 1: we said, the man loved television and filmmaking, and so
Speaker 1: he got away from the Muppets and puppets every now
Speaker 1: and then collaborated with Raymond Scott, who was an electronica pioneer,
Speaker 1: actually on shorts called Ripples and Wheels that Go, and
Speaker 1: he did that for the Montreal Expo in sixty seven
Speaker 1: and I know we're jumping around in time, but we're
Speaker 1: just trying to paint the full picture here, not going
Speaker 1: necessarily in order. And then he also did this cool
Speaker 1: thing called the Floating Face, which was a sketch that
Speaker 1: was on the Tonight Show, on the Mike Douglas Show
Speaker 1: in the sixties, which did you see any of.
Speaker 2: That a little bit?
Speaker 1: It was a little weird. It was like two eyes
Speaker 1: and a mouth and there were like these invisible wires
Speaker 1: and background images. It was definitely a little more on
Speaker 1: that surreal tip, the hints and surreal tip, not kid
Speaker 1: oriented necessarily. But he got into the movies with the
Speaker 1: Muppet Movie, which was a big hit, so good it
Speaker 1: still holds up, man, it's still so great.
Speaker 2: If you want to know more about that movie into
Speaker 2: some of the cool facts from it, go again listen
Speaker 2: to the Muppet episode Yeah, as a matter of fact,
Speaker 2: pause this, go listen to the Muppet episode and then
Speaker 2: come back to this one. Yeah, well it will probably
Speaker 2: enhance your experience. Agreed, Or listen to them both at
Speaker 2: the same time.
Speaker 1: But he followed the Muppet in nineteen eighty two, he
Speaker 1: made The Dark Crystal, Yeah, which was puppets and it
Speaker 1: was based on some drawings by fantasy artist Brian Froud,
Speaker 1: And there were no humans. It was all puppets. And
Speaker 1: I don't think it holds up as well, but it
Speaker 1: still looks pretty good.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I think it actually is probably better received
Speaker 2: now than it was originally.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think critics appreciated it, but it didn't do so
Speaker 2: well at the box office. But now it's become like
Speaker 2: a kind of a cult classic for sure. And one
Speaker 2: of the reasons why it didn't do that well at
Speaker 2: the box office because audiences didn't quite know what to
Speaker 2: make of it. They heard Frank Oz who co directed it,
Speaker 2: Jim Henson and puppets, and I think they went expecting
Speaker 2: the Muppet movie this is nineteen eighty two, and they
Speaker 2: got The Dark Crystal instead, which is really dark. A
Speaker 2: lot of the like the theme is, you know, good
Speaker 2: versus evil, and it's the evil in it.
Speaker 1: Is really really evil yea.
Speaker 2: And the stuff that happens to some of the puppets
Speaker 2: is including really cute puppets, is really horrifying. And I
Speaker 2: read this awesome quote by Frank Oz and basically he says,
Speaker 2: like Jim thought it was okay to scare kids. As
Speaker 2: a matter of fact, he thought it wasn't healthy for
Speaker 2: kids to never be scared, so like he purposefully was
Speaker 2: trying to scare kids, and he wanted to take the
Speaker 2: tradition back to like grim Tales, which were very very dark.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 2: That's what he was going for with the Dark Crystal. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think it was ahead of its time for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you look at some.
Speaker 1: Of these, like some of the CGI movies today, I
Speaker 1: think that Dark Crystal was a precursor to a lot
Speaker 1: of those. Then he went on to make the movie
Speaker 1: The Labyrinth with Bowie, right, Yeah, David Bowie in a
Speaker 1: very young Jennifer Connelly. Now that was a legend.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, good movie.
Speaker 1: But this was written by Terry Jones of Monty Python fame,
Speaker 1: and then rewritten a bunch by a bunch of other people.
Speaker 1: Including executive producer George Lucas. Labyrinth was okay, not bad again,
Speaker 1: not a huge hit for Hnson though as far as
Speaker 1: movies go. But he was still out there exploring these
Speaker 1: cool fantastical worlds and fantasy.
Speaker 2: Worlds, and he still had a lot of crid even
Speaker 2: in the late eighties. If you think about it, his
Speaker 2: heyday was the late seventies early eighties with the Muppet
Speaker 2: Show the Muppet Movie, and then after that it was like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'll try this with Jim Henson. I'll try this with
Speaker 2: Jim Henson. Yeah. And even still he had like a
Speaker 2: he was on a pretty great streak. And at the
Speaker 2: end of the eighties he had two TV shows on
Speaker 2: The Jim Henson Hour Yeah, and Storyteller This Storyteller.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Jim Henson Hour. He was always pushing the boundaries.
Speaker 1: The Storyteller looking Back Now, I'm sorry, Jim Henson Hour
Speaker 1: looking Back was really different from what you were getting
Speaker 1: at the time because it was it was all over
Speaker 1: the map. You had certain shows that were like, you know,
Speaker 1: four or five sketches in one and then three of
Speaker 1: the episodes were full on one hour little mini movies.
Speaker 1: Oh really, Yeah, from beginning to Louis. Yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: good point. Actually, one of the little mini movies was
Speaker 1: called Dog City, which was great. It was narrated by
Speaker 1: Rolf and it was I remember watching this. It was
Speaker 1: like a film noir gangster thing with puppet dogs. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and the main character, Acu, was the guy who did Elmo.
Speaker 1: Kevin Clash did the character of Acu, and that was fantastic.
Speaker 1: I think Dog City went on to be a TV
Speaker 1: show in its own right. Took for a little while,
Speaker 1: but it was really good. I mean it's total like
Speaker 1: gangster crime film noir, but it's you know, Rolf, the
Speaker 1: dog right the gang I love. It's really cool.
Speaker 2: The storyteller I hadn't seen before. I was, I guess
Speaker 2: aware of, but I don't know why I wasn't watching
Speaker 2: it because it would have been like right there for me, Yeah,
Speaker 2: because I would have been twelve in nineteen eighty eight.
Speaker 2: But I watched one today and it was really good.
Speaker 2: It's like human puppet interaction, yeah, which is and it's
Speaker 2: just seamless. Like there's one of the things from studying
Speaker 2: this that I've realized is like we take for granted
Speaker 2: and expect our puppet human interactions to be so seamless
Speaker 2: that we don't even realize that we're looking at puppets
Speaker 2: right then. And the reason why we expect that is
Speaker 2: because of Jim Henson and the people he worked with
Speaker 2: and inspired to work so hard at creating illusion.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, the illusion that these are living, breathing things.
Speaker 1: He would go I remember Kermit as guest on talk shows.
Speaker 1: He wouldn't go out as Jim Henson. He would go
Speaker 1: out as I mean, he did those appearances as well,
Speaker 1: but Kermit the Frog would be a guest on The
Speaker 1: Tonight Show with Johnny Carson or host or host the
Speaker 1: guest host The Tonight Show and Larry King. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: it was all a part of this goal of making
Speaker 1: these real people, right, or real living things not people.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Apparently somebody who was working with Jim Henson was
Speaker 2: I guess a director of the Muppet Show would be
Speaker 2: giving Jim notes on Kermit, and Jim would just respond like,
Speaker 2: let Kermit respond, freaking And the director said, eventually you're
Speaker 2: just sitting there, You turn and you address Kermit like
Speaker 2: he just forced you in, like interacting with the puppet
Speaker 2: even during a note session.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and probably without feeling silly or stupid or anything.
Speaker 1: You know, it probably seemed like a totally normal to do.
Speaker 2: Eventually once he forced you to do it.
Speaker 1: He also pioneered the Hintson Performance Control System and won
Speaker 1: an Academy Award for that, and that was a remote
Speaker 1: control system that helped puppeteers out. So he was always
Speaker 1: pushing technical, visual, stylistic, thematic boundaries as far as he could,
Speaker 1: and they didn't always work. You know, the movies weren't
Speaker 1: aside from them up at movie they weren't the biggest hits.
Speaker 1: The TV show a couple of you know, neither one
Speaker 1: of those lasted very long. But I think he was
Speaker 1: just intent on doing something different.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he did too. And he died in nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety of a staff infection. Organ failure brought on by
Speaker 2: a staff infection. Did you know that?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think pneumonia had something to do with it too,
Speaker 1: didn't it.
Speaker 2: Not that I saw, Really, I saw organ failure caused
Speaker 2: by a group a strep infection. I'm sorry that staff.
Speaker 1: Very sad. And if you're ever in the mood for
Speaker 1: a good cry, watch the Jim Henson memorial where Big
Speaker 1: Bird sings It's not easy being green, Yeah, tough stuff people,
Speaker 1: his children. His legacy lives on through nineteen ninety three, Jane,
Speaker 1: his wife, formed founded the Jim Henson Legacy to preserve
Speaker 1: his contributions, share him with the public. And like I said,
Speaker 1: he donated five hundred puppets to the Center of Puppetry Arts.
Speaker 1: And there is also the Jim Henson Memorial and Muppup
Speaker 1: Museum and traveling exhibits. And his sons and daughters help
Speaker 1: run his foundation, and some of them are publicing companies
Speaker 1: themselves and run the company. The company has changed hands
Speaker 1: a lot. I have sort of the boring history. When
Speaker 1: he was still alive, he was going to sell it
Speaker 1: to Disney for one hundred and fifty million.
Speaker 2: Ye, because apparently he believed in Disney's commitment to the characters,
Speaker 2: so he thought like that would be a good place
Speaker 2: for them muppets to live.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Disney went he bought it, but he did
Speaker 1: not get that deal finished. But it turns out one
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million with chump change because in two
Speaker 1: thousand his children sold the entire company, including the Sesame
Speaker 1: Street characters, to a German media company for six hundred
Speaker 1: and eighty million and then I believe that company fell
Speaker 1: in hard times and they bought it back in two
Speaker 1: thousand and three for eighty four million. Isn't that crazy?
Speaker 2: Wow? The Henson children are smart.
Speaker 1: And in between all that, there are various exchanges of
Speaker 1: percentages of stakes with other companies and rights of certain characters.
Speaker 1: It's a little dull to go over all of that,
Speaker 1: but needless to say, they made up pretty well. And
Speaker 1: eventually Disney now does they do own all the Muppet studio?
Speaker 2: They own the Muppets. That apparently the Henson Company sold
Speaker 2: the rights to the Sesame Street characters to Sesame Street,
Speaker 2: which is pretty cool. Yes, and the Jim Henson Creature
Speaker 2: Shop still builds the Sesame Street puppets and Muppets.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it says they sold the rights to the Muppets
Speaker 1: and Bear in the Big Blue House characters, which I'm
Speaker 1: not familiar with that one, nor am I, but Disney
Speaker 1: wanted to. I guess that's sort of the player to
Speaker 1: be named later that's included in the baseball trade.
Speaker 2: Man proud of the Henson kids.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're great, and I hope we get tweeted about
Speaker 1: this one from them. You seem pretty great, Brian and
Speaker 1: Cheryl and the gang. He seemed like they're doing right
Speaker 1: by the dad. And there's other siblings too, and I
Speaker 1: think they're all involved. Yep, super involved. And sadly Jane
Speaker 1: passed away I think in twenty thirteen at the age
Speaker 1: of seventy eight. I would have loved to have seen
Speaker 1: what kind of work he did later in his life.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the fact that he died in nineteen ninety
Speaker 2: still had like a couple of TV shows going, I
Speaker 2: mean fifty three years old. Yeah, he had a lot
Speaker 2: of art left in. If you want to know more
Speaker 2: about Jim Henson, go listen to our Muppets episode. And
Speaker 2: while you're looking that up, you can also search Jim
Speaker 2: Henson on the search bar at HowStuffWorks dot com and
Speaker 2: I'll bring up this great article. And since I said
Speaker 2: search part, it's time for a listener mail.
Speaker 1: This is I'm gonna call this sophomore smart sophomore. Hey guys,
Speaker 1: my name is Matt and I'm a sophomore in high school. Sophomore,
Speaker 1: smart sophomore. I'm a newer fan of the show and
Speaker 1: I listen while I do everything, I just want to
Speaker 1: say the Dark Ages were only dark in Europe. The
Speaker 1: life expectancy in the Dark Ages is actually a little
Speaker 1: longer than before, but mostly because there were smaller wars.
Speaker 1: But things were certainly brighter in the Islamic world. In fact,
Speaker 1: people in the Middle East were really enlightened during this time.
Speaker 1: Within about one hundred years, they conquered a lot of
Speaker 1: new land, including Spain. Also, the Arabic language grew to
Speaker 1: be the language of philosophy, medicine, and poetry, and Baghdad
Speaker 1: became the world center of scholarship. They translated almost all
Speaker 1: of the famous Greek philosopher's work into Arabic. Muslim Muslims
Speaker 1: developed algebra to amplify inheritance laws, and they made important
Speaker 1: strides in trigonometry to help people find a way to Mecca.
Speaker 1: Architecture grew too. The Great Mosque and Spain only took
Speaker 1: roughly a year, while medieval cathedrals took hundreds of years
Speaker 1: to build. Wow, So the Dark Ages weren't that dark,
Speaker 1: and the Enlightenment came earlier than most think. And that
Speaker 1: is from Matt.
Speaker 2: Thanks Matt.
Speaker 1: That is enlightening stuff, my friend.
Speaker 2: Yeah, our numerals are Arabic.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true. We should hit on some more Middle
Speaker 1: Eastern topics.
Speaker 2: Let's do it man. Yeah. In the meantime, if you
Speaker 2: want to suggest some Middle Eastern topics for us, you
Speaker 2: can send us an email to Stuff podcast at House
Speaker 2: stufforks dot com and, as always, hang out at our
Speaker 2: beautiful home on the web, Stuff Youshould Know dot com.
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