WEBVTT - Technology and Surveillance on Migrants, with Austin Kocher and Jake Wiener, Pt 2 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:07.040 I have one to James, and I am back with 0:00:07.120 --> 0:00:10.000 Austin and Jake to discuss ICE's Alternatives to two detention 0:00:10.160 --> 0:00:13.320 program today. If you didn't listened to yesterday's episode on 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:16.120 CBP one and a little bit of at D, then 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:18.440 I'd suggest starting there because there's a lot of context 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:22.840 that you might be missing in today's episode. Let's talk 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:26.159 about alternatives to detention a bit. That's this is a 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:28.960 this is a once inside the US system, right, so 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:31.200 it's a little different. It's people who've managed to get 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:36.479 through the significant hurdles posed by CBP one. What happened 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:39.320 to them? Then? Yeah? 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:43.320 So you know ICE has the option of detaining people 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:49.200 at immigrant detention facilities. This includes people who are facing deportation, 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:51.080 most people who are facing deportation. 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:55.320 Can you explain that the title eight thing, because people 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:57.240 might not be for I've tried to explain that before, 0:00:57.240 --> 0:00:58.720 but I'd love you to explain that again, just so 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:02.880 people are clear regards detention, well regarding like finding an 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:07.680 offensive asylum application and why people might be doing that, 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:11.440 like a post like the post title forty two sort 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:14.640 of paradigm for processing asylum. 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:17.360 Yeah, sure, okay, so title forty two which we talked 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:22.080 about earlier, has gone away, which means now Title eight 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:24.959 is not like Title forty two. It's the part of 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:28.000 the US law which is about immigration. Title eight never 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:32.760 went away, but it is now the dominant, you know, 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:36.960 a section of code that is shaping border enforcement and 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:41.959 immigration processing. When someone comes through CBP one and they 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:45.400 get an appointment, they go to their interview for the entry. 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:48.200 Then they come into the United States. They have not 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:52.320 made an asylum application yet, so they still have to 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:55.600 do that. In the US. The United States has two 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:59.720 options at this point. There's two agencies that can make decisions. 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:04.640 Can receive assylum applications and make decisions USCIS, which is 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:09.600 historically the primary one. US Citizenship and Immigration Services. They 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:12.680 have what are called asylum officers whose job it is 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:17.800 to adjudicate assylum applications, interview people, and so forth. Or 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:24.560 the United States can file removal proceedings deportation cases effectively 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:27.799 against these individuals and put them into immigration court, where 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:33.639 an immigration judge can accept an assiled application and adjudicate 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:37.400 the assigled application. The major difference here is that in 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:41.720 the court room in the immigration court system, that individual 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:44.040 is going in front of a judge and has an 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:50.600 ICE officer, an enforcement related kind of attorney effectively arguing 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:54.480 against them in court. Technically, they're not supposed to be 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:56.920 arguing against them per se, they're supposed to be finding 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:01.200 the right outcome, but effectively they're arguing against them like they're, 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:04.000 you know, trying to apply for asylum in immigration court 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:06.600 or in like a criminal court setting. Almost not really, 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:11.280 but almost right. So here's the two main differences when 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:15.239 those individuals. You know, Historically, when people have been put 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:18.120 into the immigration court system, ICE does have the option 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:21.200 of detaining them or at least detaining them for an 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:26.600 early part of that process until they meet some certain tolds. 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:30.520 The Biden administration has decided largely at this point not 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:33.360 to go that route. That has not been true in 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:36.560 the past. The Trump administration's detention numbers were up well 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:39.680 over sixty thousand people detained the day at one point. 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:42.440 Right now, it's about half that it's up from the 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:45.280 beginning of the year, but it's about almost thirty thousand 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:47.800 people are in detention now, and people seem to be 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:52.600 moving through even when they are detained relatively quickly. This 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:56.760 is where alternatives to detention come in. We should not 0:03:56.960 --> 0:04:00.680 think of alternatives to detention as alternatives detention. In fact, 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:05.040 ICE itself has said on their website and in testimony 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:09.520 before Congress, alternatives to detention is not an alternative to detention. 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:15.800 It is an alternative to unsupervised release. So it's what 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:19.560 it really is is an electronic monitoring program that allows 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:22.960 the agency to effectively keep track of everyone that they 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:25.480 want to keep track of. Now, the number of people 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:29.599 in this alternatives to detention program is an extremely small 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:32.560 fraction of the number of asylum systems in court. It 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:36.400 is nowhere near, you know, saturating the total number of 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:40.560 people that they could be. One wonders whether they consider 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:45.039 five percent monitoring some kind of massive success when you know, 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:48.239 when most people are actually not monitored. But one major 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:51.600 change has happened, which is in addition to the smartphone 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:55.400 app that migrants use to even try to seek asylum, 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:59.159 now migrants also have to download an app called smart Link. 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:03.000 Yeah that is now. This one is not built in house. 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:06.719 This is contracted out from an organization called BI that 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:11.880 effectively mostly contracts with the criminal justice system, but they 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:14.640 also contract with ICE. So they have to download an 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:16.840 app on their phone and they have to check in 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:23.480 regularly using a similar but different kind of facial technology. 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:27.760 They can communicate with deportation officers, they can get alerts 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:31.080 about their immigration court here, all this stuff, But the 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:35.680 crucial part of that is under threat of detention or redetention, 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:39.560 redetaining migrants have to check in on their smartphone. So 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.560 it means that that same phone that one you know, 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:45.320 struggled with on the periphery of Renosa trying to just 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:47.800 even get into the United States to pursue what is 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:50.919 their legal right to pursue asylum, now they're glued to 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:54.200 their smartphone, worried that if they don't respond to you know, 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:56.200 a text message or an alert or a being on 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:59.719 their phone, they could be redetained and you know, potentially 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:03.080 to put in some way. So that's currently how this is. 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:06.360 So it's not for everyone. It's not as if everyone 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:09.720 follows this exact same path, but it is true, and 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:11.920 I think this is the big takeaway. It is true 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:16.640 that asylum seekers today will start interacting with the US government, 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:19.719 may start interacting with the US government on their smartphone 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:24.359 as far south as Mexico City, and then continue to 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:28.560 have their primary contact and interaction with the US government 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:31.320 on their smartphone all the way through the border and 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:35.800 to Columbus, Ohio, New York City, Seattle, Washington. So the 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:40.040 smartphone has become effectively this kind of what I am 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:42.159 trying to think of and conceptualize as a kind of 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:45.800 mobile border. They never where, migrants never really arrive, and 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:46.760 they never really leave. 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:50.840 Yeah, it's kind of not to get too sort of 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:53.240 I guess, not contiratory. It's their own word. But like 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:55.720 since two thousand and one, the border has come to 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:58.040 you more and more and more right, and you don't 0:06:58.080 --> 0:06:59.760 have to go to the border for the border to 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:02.159 suit value. And we can see this in hundreds of ways. 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:05.320 Can we backtrack a little bit, just because our listeners 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:08.160 will be familiar with some of the human stories that 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:12.040 surrounded the end of title forty two. Some of those people, 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:15.880 to my understanding, entered the United States I'm doing heavy 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:20.600 air quotes between ports of entry under Title forty two, 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:27.080 but then were detained. That it is fairly obvious they 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:29.120 thought they were being detained. It looked very much like 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:31.960 they were being detained. They weren't allowed to leave. CBP 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:36.600 apparently would argue that they were not detained because the 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:41.680 conditions were wofully inadequate by their own detention policies, which 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:44.840 don't exactly provide for luxurious conditions to begin with. And 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:48.360 so what would the situation be for those people because 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:52.400 they haven't They were trying, at least some people I 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:55.160 spoke to, to make CBP one appointments from a place 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:59.360 of detention, which I don't think one can do. Maybe 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:01.920 one can if one's not on a list or something, 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:04.680 but you still have to get there right and you 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:07.480 can't leave south or north to access. 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:10.400 You have to be in Mexico to schedule an appointment 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:11.240 on CBP one. 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:15.600 Okay, yeah, these guys were in betweens. 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:17.560 As Jake knows better than I do. I mean the 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:20.240 issue with being along the border, and James, you know 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:23.840 this because I mean you're there, which cell tower you're 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:27.320 on if you're close to the border. Oh yeah, tricky, 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:27.960 isn't it. 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:32.000 I got so I use T mobile that's a free 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:36.640 buzz marketing. But they I have free roaming on my 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:39.000 phone right, very useful in the work I do. But 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:43.720 I remember in twenty eighteen I was in Mexico a lot, 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:45.560 and then I was obviously also just ride my bike 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:47.760 a lot in places along the border, and they were like, 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:50.400 you've been in Mexico every day this month. You don't 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:53.439 live in America. We're going to cancel your phone contract. 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:57.079 I had been in Mexico like some days, but they 0:08:57.080 --> 0:08:59.240 had all just think, oh, you're pinging Mexican celtos. Yeah, 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:01.160 well I was on a bike ride like in East County, 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:03.520 San Diego. I wasn't in Mexico, but my phone thought 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:07.520 I was, so Yeah, the same thing can happen in reverse, right, 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:10.480 your phone camping American cell towers when you're in Mexico. 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:13.040 So those people might appear to be in the US 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:16.199 when they're not. But in that situation, they couldn't make 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:18.880 a CBP un appointment, So I guess they're assumed to have. 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:23.400 It's the same as if they crossed the fence somewhere 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:26.120 else and been detained ten miles inside the United States, right, 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:29.199 what would their process be? 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:33.000 Yeah, So I think if we're talking about right now, 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:36.480 this is actually really important. Is that the new rule 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:40.600 called circumvention of Lawful Pathways that replaced Title forty two 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:45.000 supposed to happen like three years ago. Yeah, and it 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:49.280 finally got passed. Basically there were a number of court 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:54.000 challenges in which Red States tried to keep Title forty 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:58.600 two in place. The same states, mind you, who were 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:04.240 very critical of COVID protections, were extremely worried about lifting 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:07.360 the ban on people in the southern border coming in 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:12.920 because of COVID concerns. Part of what that rulemaking did 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:16.320 was it worked a fundamental change in the way that 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:23.240 asylum seekers work, and so, like just context, claiming asylum 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:26.160 is a human right, is a right guaranteed by international law, 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:29.680 is the right guaranteed by US law. That you can 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:32.160 show up and say, hey, I am not safe in 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:35.560 the country that I'm coming from and I need asylum 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:37.600 in the States, and you have a right to do that, 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.480 and for the US or whatever country you arrive in 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:42.840 to process your claim and decide if it's valid or not. 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:48.840 So one of the changes in this rule making was 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:51.880 that they are applying what's called the government is applying 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:57.320 a presumption of ineligibility to people seeking asylum, which means 0:10:57.320 --> 0:10:59.040 that if you did not show up in a proper 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:02.240 manner the United States. That means if you did not 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:05.720 use the CBP one app to claim asylum before you 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:08.800 got to the border, and if you did not apply 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:11.840 for asylum in every country that you traveled through along 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:16.520 the way. If you traveled from Guatemala and you did 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:19.960 not pay for apply for asylum in Mexico before you 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:23.840 got to the border, you are automatically deemed ineligible and 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:26.920 your asylum claim will be denied with no hearing, with 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:32.400 no opportunity to say, hi, I'm here because like my 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:37.880 husband is a police officer somewhere in Guatemala and he's 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:39.880 trying to kill me, and I can't stay in the country, right, 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:44.480 And so that is a fundamental change in the way 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:48.000 the law works. And that's the starting point of someone 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:52.480 who has frost illegally not used CBP one and then 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:54.920 is picked up's and that's new in the law in 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:55.680 twenty twenty three. 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:59.040 Yeah, and so they would immediately be filing like a 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.840 defensive asylum application to prevent that removal. 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:07.640 Yes, And basically at that point you're trying to argue 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:11.560 for one of a tiny subset of exemptions, yes, which 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:16.760 there is virtually no guidance on how to implement those exemptions. Right, Like, 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:20.280 one thing you can claim is that you cross without 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:23.800 a CVP one appointment, because you couldn't use the app 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:28.920 The idea of trying to prove to someone at the 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:32.920 Customs of Border Protection that you were technologically enabled to 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:37.559 use an app seems basically impossible, given that the only 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:40.360 proof that you have is that you didn't get the 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.480 appointment right, that you weren't able to submit it. That's 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:45.439 not a strong record that a lawyer would like to 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:50.640 argue on, I will tell you as a lawyer. And 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:55.040 so the result is basically that people who have certainly 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:58.400 legitimate asylum claims are likely to be turned away because 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:00.320 they didn't comply with the proper process us. 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:04.920 Yeah, even people we heard Dalegle I can't remember where 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:09.079 it was now where Customs of officials in Mexico have 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:12.920 been threatening to detain people for longer than it so 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:15.200 they couldn't make it in time for their CPP one 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:18.680 appointment right that they had already made. They're gone through 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:21.600 that arduous and bias process, made the appointment, and then 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:24.280 people were being detained unless they paid a bribe. And 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:28.199 then then if those people had crossed like legally in 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:30.080 between ports of entry, that would be very harder than 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:32.960 to prove that they could that that had happened at all, Right, 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:35.480 Like what had caused them to do that. So those 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:40.400 people are in an even more difficult scenario if people then, 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:44.520 through any of these processes find themselves in a ATD 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:49.160 alternative to detention. There are numerous ways it could be surveilled. 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:52.600 Alston mentioned that the phone app, which I think is 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:57.280 the perhaps the most recent and most common one. Another 0:13:57.320 --> 0:13:59.800 one is to ankle monitors, Right, you can get like 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:03.240 a a parole kind of ank style of ankle monitor 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:06.280 And I know that, Jake, you've written a little bit 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.040 about some of the consequences as those Do you want 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:12.199 to talk about that. Yeah, So, first of all, an 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:15.880 overview of the ATV program is that there are different 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:20.440 levels of monitoring and all of them are I think 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:23.880 should functionally be viewed as incarceration, which is to say 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:26.760 that you are not you've not been released from custody, 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:30.040 just the location of your custodity has been moved from 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:34.120 a prison to somewhere out in the world where you're 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:39.440 being surveilled and your movements are potentially tracked. But you 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:42.880 are still in many ways as vulnerable as you would 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:45.560 be if you're actually in a jail or a prison. 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:51.480 And so ICE has the option to decide at their 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:55.240 discretion which level of monitoring you get. The levels of monitoring, 0:14:56.000 --> 0:15:00.600 the highest level is an ankle bracelet, a will shackle 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:05.600 that is a GPS device that is battery power, has 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:08.880 potentially only a few hours of charge on it, you 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:10.640 might get a day of charge off of it, and 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:15.520 is constantly monitoring your location and sending that location back 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:22.080 to both ICE and to the contracting staff of BI Industries. 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:28.120 This prison technology company, who ICE, has hired as case managers, 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:33.880 basically people who are providing support for ICE on keeping 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:38.120 track of the usually eight to ten thousand people who 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:42.800 are on the ankle monitor system. If you don't get 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:45.200 quite that high level, or if you get de escalated 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:47.720 over time, you applied ICE and you say, hey, I've 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:51.160 been on my ankle bracelet for like three months, I've 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:53.480 not straight outside the area I'm supposed to go. I've 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:56.640 always responded to check in, then they might bump you 0:15:56.720 --> 0:16:00.560 down to the smart link app, also provided by the industry, 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:03.520 is on an extremely lucrative contract. Their last contract is 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:07.880 like two point two billion dollars, and that smart link 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:10.800 app is either going to be loaded on your smartphone 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:12.680 if you have a smartphone that can handle it, or 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:16.720 you'll be given a smartphone buy ICE and told to 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:20.800 use that smartphone to check in. You will be required 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:25.760 to check in on a sort of regular schedule. I 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:29.320 don't have a strong sense for how often that is. 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:34.640 Could be daily, could be less. To check in, you're 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:36.800 going to open the app up. It's going to ping 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:39.960 your GPS location, send a DICE, and then you're going 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:43.800 to take official recognition photograph. That photograph will be compared 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:47.040 to make sure that you're actually you. That photograph is 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:50.240 also potentially capturing your surroundings, the people you live with, 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:54.320 whoever's like in the frame, and then you can communicate 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:57.840 with your case manager on the app. You can potentially 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:01.040 find information on when your immigration court hearings are. That 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:01.600 type of thing. 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:04.879 It's the middle level of monitoring. The lowest level of 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:09.200 monitoring is voice print based. So basically, every once in 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:12.560 a while, whatever your dedicated check in time is, you're 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:15.960 going to call into ICE on your phone. You're gonna 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:20.800 say Hi, I'm Jake Wiener, I'm checking in, and ICE 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:23.159 will run a voice print analysis and make sure that 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:25.719 you are the person who say you are and confirm 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:30.760 your location at any point if that system screws up, 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:36.399 you are potentially you were then in violation of the 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:39.800 terms of your release, and at any point ICE, if 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:43.080 you've there's been an error, an ICE officer can show 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:44.720 up and take you right back to jail. 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.960 Let's talk a little bit about that. You've mentioned BI. Right, 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:01.640 You've both mentioned BI. This is not a government agency, 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:05.359 this is a contractor. But potentially they have access to 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:12.000 your photograph, details of your asylum case, and we are 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:15.040 we very clear on Like certainly with the ICE issued phones, 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.040 people seem to have concerns like what is being monitored 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:20.000 and what isn't being monitored on the phone? Right, Like 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:22.639 is it only when they have the app open? Is 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:26.720 everything on their phone now subject to a review by 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:30.639 ICE and potentially also by this third party contractor? Right, So, 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:34.560 how are those contractors vetting their personnel? How are they're 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:38.120 making sure that these this very sensitive information is secure 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:39.240 and private like it should be. 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:42.560 Yeah, I have no idea how they're vetting their staff. 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:48.840 They're not exactly forthcoming. One aspect of the surveillance that 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:53.399 I think is worth noting is that both ICE and 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:58.120 BI don't just have your whether you're on the smartphone 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:00.679 or if you're on the ankle monitor, they don't just 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:04.480 have your last GPS ping, they have your historical movements, 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:06.439 which means if you're on an ankle monitor, they have 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:08.800 a record of every single place you went for the 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:11.159 entirety of the time since you've been on that ankle monitor, 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:14.080 and they also know where you are right now a 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:17.480 little more limited on a smartphone, but that's information that's 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:22.280 highly sensitive. Your location and especially your historical location information 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:25.000 and tell you all kinds of things like what church 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:27.520 this person goes to, have they been to Planned Parenthood 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:30.679 or recently, who do they associate with? Like what houses 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:33.360 are they visited? And for ICE, that information is very 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:38.399 valuable because most migrants don't live alone. They live in 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:41.640 community with other people. Some of those people may be undocumented, 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:46.280 and so as a migrant, you are now worrying every 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:49.440 time you check in. Am I exposing someone who's undocumented 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:55.639 to ICE surveillance? Am I exposing myself, you know, to 0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:58.760 just like tagging somewhere that ICE doesn't want me to 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:00.679 be and maybe an officer is going to show up 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:03.080 for a check Because of that, it is created creating 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:05.960 a ton of insecurity in a system that is already 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:12.000 very insecure, and the like psychological harms of that are manifest. 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:17.080 You know, there's good studies like internationally that your risk 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:19.879 of suicide and depression goes way up when you're on 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:27.560 electronic monitoring, that your access to jobs goes way out you. 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:30.040 You know, there's stigma with wearing an ankle brace. Also 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:34.840 concerns that if you take a job you won't be 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:37.880 able to check in at your home at the appropriate time, 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:41.879 it looks like you're absconding. Right, So this level of 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:45.400 monitoring is messing with people's lives and really fundamental and 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:46.600 deeply cruel ways. 0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:50.640 Yeah, definitely, and these like like you talked about sort 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:52.520 of how how your phone can make you a snitch, 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:57.040 Like mixed status families are very common, right, Inspecting in 0:20:57.520 --> 0:20:59.920 migrant diaspora is so like it could be someone in 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.400 your family who have to different immigration status from you, 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:04.800 and to do what you need to do, you might 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:08.359 be putting that person at risks. And it's a very 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:12.280 scary thing to have that tag on you at all times. 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:14.600 And like you said, it's not just where you are, 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:18.000 but where you've been. And I if I'm right, like 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:23.119 they they keep that data, right that data isn't anonymized 0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:25.160 or sort of like destroyed. 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:28.080 They can keep their data forever if they want to. Yes, 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:33.280 it's inputed into their systems and that hangs around for 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:37.600 I think the retention period of seventy five years. Okay, yeah, great, 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:38.520 depends a little bit. 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:43.200 Yeah. This technology that goes into these right, that's facial recognition. 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:46.400 I know they also have a number plate license plate 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:52.440 in America recognition. They have I'm trying to think which 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:55.160 are other technologies. They have a cell phone site simulation. 0:21:56.440 --> 0:21:58.840 A lot of that can also be transferred to local 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:02.600 police agencies right through some of these like they're not 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:05.240 tech transfer programs, that's certain word. But some of these 0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:09.840 grants and programs that ICE and DHS more broadly has, 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:14.199 Does that mean that local police agencies could also have 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:15.560 access to some of this data? 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:18.920 Yeah, So I think there's two different types of programs 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:22.320 and it's worth breaking them apart. Yeah, there are grant 0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:26.560 programs that are providing state and local police with the 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:29.280 technology itself. Right, that's like money to buy a license 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:33.479 plate reader and pop it out in your community. There 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:38.240 are is also the overlap between Betteral and Special Department 0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:43.520 of Homeland Security ices databases the systems that they house 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:46.919 all of this information in, and state and local police 0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:50.240 they have their own databases. Those databases are very often 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:55.560 linked or accessible, which means that monitoring. You know, your 0:22:55.600 --> 0:22:58.520 local police department has a log of everyone and they 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:02.040 arrest very often that log is sent to ICE and 0:23:02.160 --> 0:23:07.760 vice versa. Right So it's one of the main ways 0:23:07.760 --> 0:23:10.000 that this has done is through fusion centers, which is 0:23:10.560 --> 0:23:14.879 basically a federally funded state run technology center embedded in 0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:18.040 state or local police departments, where you have the Department 0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:21.520 of Homeland Security agents who have access to their set 0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:25.080 of databases, and state and local police department officers who 0:23:25.119 --> 0:23:27.320 have access to their set of databases, sitting right next 0:23:27.359 --> 0:23:29.600 to each other, and those people can then talk and 0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:31.600 be like, yo, I need you to run this search 0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:35.120 into your system, which is theoretically only for federal use, 0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:38.240 but suddenly it's getting used for state law enforcement and 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:41.480 vice versa. One of the biggest problems with this is 0:23:41.520 --> 0:23:45.320 that cities that want to be sanctuary cities that don't 0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:49.280 want their police departments reporting and handing people over to 0:23:49.359 --> 0:23:53.760 ICE when they arrest undocumented folks, city government is unable 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:56.480 to control their local police departments and the information that 0:23:56.560 --> 0:23:59.600 is sent to ICE. So even a sensible sanctuary cities, 0:24:00.040 --> 0:24:03.560 a city says we're not going to report this information. 0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:07.320