1 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: I have one to James, and I am back with 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: Austin and Jake to discuss ICE's Alternatives to two detention 3 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: program today. If you didn't listened to yesterday's episode on 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: CBP one and a little bit of at D, then 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: I'd suggest starting there because there's a lot of context 6 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: that you might be missing in today's episode. Let's talk 7 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:26,159 Speaker 1: about alternatives to detention a bit. That's this is a 8 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: this is a once inside the US system, right, so 9 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: it's a little different. It's people who've managed to get 10 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: through the significant hurdles posed by CBP one. What happened 11 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: to them? Then? Yeah? 12 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 2: So you know ICE has the option of detaining people 13 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 2: at immigrant detention facilities. This includes people who are facing deportation, 14 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 2: most people who are facing deportation. 15 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: Can you explain that the title eight thing, because people 16 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: might not be for I've tried to explain that before, 17 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: but I'd love you to explain that again, just so 18 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: people are clear regards detention, well regarding like finding an 19 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: offensive asylum application and why people might be doing that, 20 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: like a post like the post title forty two sort 21 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: of paradigm for processing asylum. 22 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, okay, so title forty two which we talked 23 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: about earlier, has gone away, which means now Title eight 24 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 2: is not like Title forty two. It's the part of 25 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 2: the US law which is about immigration. Title eight never 26 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 2: went away, but it is now the dominant, you know, 27 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 2: a section of code that is shaping border enforcement and 28 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 2: immigration processing. When someone comes through CBP one and they 29 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 2: get an appointment, they go to their interview for the entry. 30 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 2: Then they come into the United States. They have not 31 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 2: made an asylum application yet, so they still have to 32 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 2: do that. In the US. The United States has two 33 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: options at this point. There's two agencies that can make decisions. 34 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 2: Can receive assylum applications and make decisions USCIS, which is 35 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 2: historically the primary one. US Citizenship and Immigration Services. They 36 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 2: have what are called asylum officers whose job it is 37 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 2: to adjudicate assylum applications, interview people, and so forth. Or 38 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 2: the United States can file removal proceedings deportation cases effectively 39 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 2: against these individuals and put them into immigration court, where 40 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 2: an immigration judge can accept an assiled application and adjudicate 41 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 2: the assigled application. The major difference here is that in 42 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: the court room in the immigration court system, that individual 43 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 2: is going in front of a judge and has an 44 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 2: ICE officer, an enforcement related kind of attorney effectively arguing 45 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 2: against them in court. Technically, they're not supposed to be 46 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 2: arguing against them per se, they're supposed to be finding 47 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 2: the right outcome, but effectively they're arguing against them like they're, 48 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 2: you know, trying to apply for asylum in immigration court 49 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 2: or in like a criminal court setting. Almost not really, 50 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 2: but almost right. So here's the two main differences when 51 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:15,239 Speaker 2: those individuals. You know, Historically, when people have been put 52 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 2: into the immigration court system, ICE does have the option 53 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 2: of detaining them or at least detaining them for an 54 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 2: early part of that process until they meet some certain tolds. 55 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 2: The Biden administration has decided largely at this point not 56 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 2: to go that route. That has not been true in 57 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 2: the past. The Trump administration's detention numbers were up well 58 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 2: over sixty thousand people detained the day at one point. 59 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 2: Right now, it's about half that it's up from the 60 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 2: beginning of the year, but it's about almost thirty thousand 61 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 2: people are in detention now, and people seem to be 62 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 2: moving through even when they are detained relatively quickly. This 63 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 2: is where alternatives to detention come in. We should not 64 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 2: think of alternatives to detention as alternatives detention. In fact, 65 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: ICE itself has said on their website and in testimony 66 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 2: before Congress, alternatives to detention is not an alternative to detention. 67 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 2: It is an alternative to unsupervised release. So it's what 68 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 2: it really is is an electronic monitoring program that allows 69 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: the agency to effectively keep track of everyone that they 70 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 2: want to keep track of. Now, the number of people 71 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 2: in this alternatives to detention program is an extremely small 72 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 2: fraction of the number of asylum systems in court. It 73 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 2: is nowhere near, you know, saturating the total number of 74 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 2: people that they could be. One wonders whether they consider 75 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 2: five percent monitoring some kind of massive success when you know, 76 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,239 Speaker 2: when most people are actually not monitored. But one major 77 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 2: change has happened, which is in addition to the smartphone 78 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 2: app that migrants use to even try to seek asylum, 79 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 2: now migrants also have to download an app called smart Link. 80 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 2: Yeah that is now. This one is not built in house. 81 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 2: This is contracted out from an organization called BI that 82 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 2: effectively mostly contracts with the criminal justice system, but they 83 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 2: also contract with ICE. So they have to download an 84 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 2: app on their phone and they have to check in 85 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 2: regularly using a similar but different kind of facial technology. 86 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 2: They can communicate with deportation officers, they can get alerts 87 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 2: about their immigration court here, all this stuff, But the 88 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 2: crucial part of that is under threat of detention or redetention, 89 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 2: redetaining migrants have to check in on their smartphone. So 90 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 2: it means that that same phone that one you know, 91 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 2: struggled with on the periphery of Renosa trying to just 92 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 2: even get into the United States to pursue what is 93 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 2: their legal right to pursue asylum, now they're glued to 94 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 2: their smartphone, worried that if they don't respond to you know, 95 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 2: a text message or an alert or a being on 96 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 2: their phone, they could be redetained and you know, potentially 97 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 2: to put in some way. So that's currently how this is. 98 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 2: So it's not for everyone. It's not as if everyone 99 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 2: follows this exact same path, but it is true, and 100 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 2: I think this is the big takeaway. It is true 101 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 2: that asylum seekers today will start interacting with the US government, 102 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 2: may start interacting with the US government on their smartphone 103 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 2: as far south as Mexico City, and then continue to 104 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 2: have their primary contact and interaction with the US government 105 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 2: on their smartphone all the way through the border and 106 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 2: to Columbus, Ohio, New York City, Seattle, Washington. So the 107 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 2: smartphone has become effectively this kind of what I am 108 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 2: trying to think of and conceptualize as a kind of 109 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 2: mobile border. They never where, migrants never really arrive, and 110 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 2: they never really leave. 111 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of not to get too sort of 112 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: I guess, not contiratory. It's their own word. But like 113 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 1: since two thousand and one, the border has come to 114 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: you more and more and more right, and you don't 115 00:06:58,080 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: have to go to the border for the border to 116 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: suit value. And we can see this in hundreds of ways. 117 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: Can we backtrack a little bit, just because our listeners 118 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: will be familiar with some of the human stories that 119 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: surrounded the end of title forty two. Some of those people, 120 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: to my understanding, entered the United States I'm doing heavy 121 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: air quotes between ports of entry under Title forty two, 122 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: but then were detained. That it is fairly obvious they 123 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: thought they were being detained. It looked very much like 124 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: they were being detained. They weren't allowed to leave. CBP 125 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: apparently would argue that they were not detained because the 126 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: conditions were wofully inadequate by their own detention policies, which 127 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: don't exactly provide for luxurious conditions to begin with. And 128 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: so what would the situation be for those people because 129 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: they haven't They were trying, at least some people I 130 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: spoke to, to make CBP one appointments from a place 131 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: of detention, which I don't think one can do. Maybe 132 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: one can if one's not on a list or something, 133 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: but you still have to get there right and you 134 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: can't leave south or north to access. 135 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 2: You have to be in Mexico to schedule an appointment 136 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 2: on CBP one. 137 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, these guys were in betweens. 138 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 2: As Jake knows better than I do. I mean the 139 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: issue with being along the border, and James, you know 140 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 2: this because I mean you're there, which cell tower you're 141 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 2: on if you're close to the border. Oh yeah, tricky, 142 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 2: isn't it. 143 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: I got so I use T mobile that's a free 144 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: buzz marketing. But they I have free roaming on my 145 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: phone right, very useful in the work I do. But 146 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: I remember in twenty eighteen I was in Mexico a lot, 147 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: and then I was obviously also just ride my bike 148 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: a lot in places along the border, and they were like, 149 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: you've been in Mexico every day this month. You don't 150 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,439 Speaker 1: live in America. We're going to cancel your phone contract. 151 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,079 Speaker 1: I had been in Mexico like some days, but they 152 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: had all just think, oh, you're pinging Mexican celtos. Yeah, 153 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: well I was on a bike ride like in East County, 154 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: San Diego. I wasn't in Mexico, but my phone thought 155 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: I was, so Yeah, the same thing can happen in reverse, right, 156 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: your phone camping American cell towers when you're in Mexico. 157 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: So those people might appear to be in the US 158 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,199 Speaker 1: when they're not. But in that situation, they couldn't make 159 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: a CBP un appointment, So I guess they're assumed to have. 160 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: It's the same as if they crossed the fence somewhere 161 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: else and been detained ten miles inside the United States, right, 162 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,199 Speaker 1: what would their process be? 163 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think if we're talking about right now, 164 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 3: this is actually really important. Is that the new rule 165 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 3: called circumvention of Lawful Pathways that replaced Title forty two 166 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 3: supposed to happen like three years ago. Yeah, and it 167 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 3: finally got passed. Basically there were a number of court 168 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 3: challenges in which Red States tried to keep Title forty 169 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 3: two in place. The same states, mind you, who were 170 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 3: very critical of COVID protections, were extremely worried about lifting 171 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 3: the ban on people in the southern border coming in 172 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 3: because of COVID concerns. Part of what that rulemaking did 173 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 3: was it worked a fundamental change in the way that 174 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 3: asylum seekers work, and so, like just context, claiming asylum 175 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 3: is a human right, is a right guaranteed by international law, 176 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 3: is the right guaranteed by US law. That you can 177 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 3: show up and say, hey, I am not safe in 178 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 3: the country that I'm coming from and I need asylum 179 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 3: in the States, and you have a right to do that, 180 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 3: and for the US or whatever country you arrive in 181 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 3: to process your claim and decide if it's valid or not. 182 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 3: So one of the changes in this rule making was 183 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 3: that they are applying what's called the government is applying 184 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 3: a presumption of ineligibility to people seeking asylum, which means 185 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 3: that if you did not show up in a proper 186 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 3: manner the United States. That means if you did not 187 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 3: use the CBP one app to claim asylum before you 188 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 3: got to the border, and if you did not apply 189 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 3: for asylum in every country that you traveled through along 190 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 3: the way. If you traveled from Guatemala and you did 191 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 3: not pay for apply for asylum in Mexico before you 192 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 3: got to the border, you are automatically deemed ineligible and 193 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 3: your asylum claim will be denied with no hearing, with 194 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 3: no opportunity to say, hi, I'm here because like my 195 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 3: husband is a police officer somewhere in Guatemala and he's 196 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 3: trying to kill me, and I can't stay in the country, right, 197 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 3: And so that is a fundamental change in the way 198 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 3: the law works. And that's the starting point of someone 199 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 3: who has frost illegally not used CBP one and then 200 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 3: is picked up's and that's new in the law in 201 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 3: twenty twenty three. 202 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so they would immediately be filing like a 203 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: defensive asylum application to prevent that removal. 204 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 3: Yes, And basically at that point you're trying to argue 205 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 3: for one of a tiny subset of exemptions, yes, which 206 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 3: there is virtually no guidance on how to implement those exemptions. Right, Like, 207 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 3: one thing you can claim is that you cross without 208 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 3: a CVP one appointment, because you couldn't use the app 209 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 3: The idea of trying to prove to someone at the 210 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 3: Customs of Border Protection that you were technologically enabled to 211 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:37,559 Speaker 3: use an app seems basically impossible, given that the only 212 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 3: proof that you have is that you didn't get the 213 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 3: appointment right, that you weren't able to submit it. That's 214 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:45,439 Speaker 3: not a strong record that a lawyer would like to 215 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 3: argue on, I will tell you as a lawyer. And 216 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 3: so the result is basically that people who have certainly 217 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 3: legitimate asylum claims are likely to be turned away because 218 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 3: they didn't comply with the proper process us. 219 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, even people we heard Dalegle I can't remember where 220 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 1: it was now where Customs of officials in Mexico have 221 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: been threatening to detain people for longer than it so 222 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: they couldn't make it in time for their CPP one 223 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 1: appointment right that they had already made. They're gone through 224 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: that arduous and bias process, made the appointment, and then 225 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: people were being detained unless they paid a bribe. And 226 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:28,199 Speaker 1: then then if those people had crossed like legally in 227 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: between ports of entry, that would be very harder than 228 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: to prove that they could that that had happened at all, Right, 229 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: Like what had caused them to do that. So those 230 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: people are in an even more difficult scenario if people then, 231 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: through any of these processes find themselves in a ATD 232 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: alternative to detention. There are numerous ways it could be surveilled. 233 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: Alston mentioned that the phone app, which I think is 234 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: the perhaps the most recent and most common one. Another 235 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: one is to ankle monitors, Right, you can get like 236 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: a a parole kind of ank style of ankle monitor 237 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: And I know that, Jake, you've written a little bit 238 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: about some of the consequences as those Do you want 239 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 1: to talk about that. Yeah, So, first of all, an 240 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: overview of the ATV program is that there are different 241 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: levels of monitoring and all of them are I think 242 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: should functionally be viewed as incarceration, which is to say 243 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: that you are not you've not been released from custody, 244 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: just the location of your custodity has been moved from 245 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: a prison to somewhere out in the world where you're 246 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: being surveilled and your movements are potentially tracked. But you 247 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: are still in many ways as vulnerable as you would 248 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: be if you're actually in a jail or a prison. 249 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: And so ICE has the option to decide at their 250 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: discretion which level of monitoring you get. The levels of monitoring, 251 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: the highest level is an ankle bracelet, a will shackle 252 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: that is a GPS device that is battery power, has 253 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: potentially only a few hours of charge on it, you 254 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: might get a day of charge off of it, and 255 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: is constantly monitoring your location and sending that location back 256 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: to both ICE and to the contracting staff of BI Industries. 257 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: This prison technology company, who ICE, has hired as case managers, 258 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: basically people who are providing support for ICE on keeping 259 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: track of the usually eight to ten thousand people who 260 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: are on the ankle monitor system. If you don't get 261 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: quite that high level, or if you get de escalated 262 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: over time, you applied ICE and you say, hey, I've 263 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: been on my ankle bracelet for like three months, I've 264 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: not straight outside the area I'm supposed to go. I've 265 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: always responded to check in, then they might bump you 266 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: down to the smart link app, also provided by the industry, 267 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: is on an extremely lucrative contract. Their last contract is 268 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: like two point two billion dollars, and that smart link 269 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: app is either going to be loaded on your smartphone 270 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: if you have a smartphone that can handle it, or 271 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: you'll be given a smartphone buy ICE and told to 272 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: use that smartphone to check in. You will be required 273 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: to check in on a sort of regular schedule. I 274 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: don't have a strong sense for how often that is. 275 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: Could be daily, could be less. To check in, you're 276 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: going to open the app up. It's going to ping 277 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: your GPS location, send a DICE, and then you're going 278 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: to take official recognition photograph. That photograph will be compared 279 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: to make sure that you're actually you. That photograph is 280 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: also potentially capturing your surroundings, the people you live with, 281 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: whoever's like in the frame, and then you can communicate 282 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: with your case manager on the app. You can potentially 283 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: find information on when your immigration court hearings are. That 284 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: type of thing. 285 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 3: It's the middle level of monitoring. The lowest level of 286 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 3: monitoring is voice print based. So basically, every once in 287 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 3: a while, whatever your dedicated check in time is, you're 288 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 3: going to call into ICE on your phone. You're gonna 289 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 3: say Hi, I'm Jake Wiener, I'm checking in, and ICE 290 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 3: will run a voice print analysis and make sure that 291 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,719 Speaker 3: you are the person who say you are and confirm 292 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 3: your location at any point if that system screws up, 293 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 3: you are potentially you were then in violation of the 294 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 3: terms of your release, and at any point ICE, if 295 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 3: you've there's been an error, an ICE officer can show 296 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 3: up and take you right back to jail. 297 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about that. You've mentioned BI. Right, 298 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,640 Speaker 1: You've both mentioned BI. This is not a government agency, 299 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: this is a contractor. But potentially they have access to 300 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: your photograph, details of your asylum case, and we are 301 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: we very clear on Like certainly with the ICE issued phones, 302 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: people seem to have concerns like what is being monitored 303 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: and what isn't being monitored on the phone? Right, Like 304 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: is it only when they have the app open? Is 305 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: everything on their phone now subject to a review by 306 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 1: ICE and potentially also by this third party contractor? Right, So, 307 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: how are those contractors vetting their personnel? How are they're 308 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 1: making sure that these this very sensitive information is secure 309 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: and private like it should be. 310 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, I have no idea how they're vetting their staff. 311 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 3: They're not exactly forthcoming. One aspect of the surveillance that 312 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 3: I think is worth noting is that both ICE and 313 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 3: BI don't just have your whether you're on the smartphone 314 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 3: or if you're on the ankle monitor, they don't just 315 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 3: have your last GPS ping, they have your historical movements, 316 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 3: which means if you're on an ankle monitor, they have 317 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 3: a record of every single place you went for the 318 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 3: entirety of the time since you've been on that ankle monitor, 319 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 3: and they also know where you are right now a 320 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 3: little more limited on a smartphone, but that's information that's 321 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 3: highly sensitive. Your location and especially your historical location information 322 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 3: and tell you all kinds of things like what church 323 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 3: this person goes to, have they been to Planned Parenthood 324 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,679 Speaker 3: or recently, who do they associate with? Like what houses 325 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,360 Speaker 3: are they visited? And for ICE, that information is very 326 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 3: valuable because most migrants don't live alone. They live in 327 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 3: community with other people. Some of those people may be undocumented, 328 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 3: and so as a migrant, you are now worrying every 329 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 3: time you check in. Am I exposing someone who's undocumented 330 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 3: to ICE surveillance? Am I exposing myself, you know, to 331 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 3: just like tagging somewhere that ICE doesn't want me to 332 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 3: be and maybe an officer is going to show up 333 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 3: for a check Because of that, it is created creating 334 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 3: a ton of insecurity in a system that is already 335 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 3: very insecure, and the like psychological harms of that are manifest. 336 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 3: You know, there's good studies like internationally that your risk 337 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 3: of suicide and depression goes way up when you're on 338 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 3: electronic monitoring, that your access to jobs goes way out you. 339 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 3: You know, there's stigma with wearing an ankle brace. Also 340 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 3: concerns that if you take a job you won't be 341 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 3: able to check in at your home at the appropriate time, 342 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 3: it looks like you're absconding. Right, So this level of 343 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 3: monitoring is messing with people's lives and really fundamental and 344 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 3: deeply cruel ways. 345 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, and these like like you talked about sort 346 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: of how how your phone can make you a snitch, 347 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: Like mixed status families are very common, right, Inspecting in 348 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: migrant diaspora is so like it could be someone in 349 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,400 Speaker 1: your family who have to different immigration status from you, 350 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: and to do what you need to do, you might 351 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: be putting that person at risks. And it's a very 352 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: scary thing to have that tag on you at all times. 353 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: And like you said, it's not just where you are, 354 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: but where you've been. And I if I'm right, like 355 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: they they keep that data, right that data isn't anonymized 356 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 1: or sort of like destroyed. 357 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 3: They can keep their data forever if they want to. Yes, 358 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 3: it's inputed into their systems and that hangs around for 359 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 3: I think the retention period of seventy five years. Okay, yeah, great, 360 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 3: depends a little bit. 361 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. This technology that goes into these right, that's facial recognition. 362 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,400 Speaker 1: I know they also have a number plate license plate 363 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 1: in America recognition. They have I'm trying to think which 364 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 1: are other technologies. They have a cell phone site simulation. 365 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: A lot of that can also be transferred to local 366 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: police agencies right through some of these like they're not 367 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: tech transfer programs, that's certain word. But some of these 368 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: grants and programs that ICE and DHS more broadly has, 369 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:14,199 Speaker 1: Does that mean that local police agencies could also have 370 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: access to some of this data? 371 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think there's two different types of programs 372 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 3: and it's worth breaking them apart. Yeah, there are grant 373 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 3: programs that are providing state and local police with the 374 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 3: technology itself. Right, that's like money to buy a license 375 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:33,479 Speaker 3: plate reader and pop it out in your community. There 376 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 3: are is also the overlap between Betteral and Special Department 377 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 3: of Homeland Security ices databases the systems that they house 378 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,919 Speaker 3: all of this information in, and state and local police 379 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 3: they have their own databases. Those databases are very often 380 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 3: linked or accessible, which means that monitoring. You know, your 381 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 3: local police department has a log of everyone and they 382 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 3: arrest very often that log is sent to ICE and 383 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 3: vice versa. Right So it's one of the main ways 384 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 3: that this has done is through fusion centers, which is 385 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 3: basically a federally funded state run technology center embedded in 386 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 3: state or local police departments, where you have the Department 387 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 3: of Homeland Security agents who have access to their set 388 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 3: of databases, and state and local police department officers who 389 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 3: have access to their set of databases, sitting right next 390 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 3: to each other, and those people can then talk and 391 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 3: be like, yo, I need you to run this search 392 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,120 Speaker 3: into your system, which is theoretically only for federal use, 393 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 3: but suddenly it's getting used for state law enforcement and 394 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 3: vice versa. One of the biggest problems with this is 395 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 3: that cities that want to be sanctuary cities that don't 396 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 3: want their police departments reporting and handing people over to 397 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 3: ICE when they arrest undocumented folks, city government is unable 398 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 3: to control their local police departments and the information that 399 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 3: is sent to ICE. So even a sensible sanctuary cities, 400 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 3: a city says we're not going to report this information. 401 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 3: The way that these databases are tied together, especially license 402 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 3: plate reader databases as but as well as arrest databases, 403 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 3: all sorts of stuff means that the city government functionally 404 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 3: cannot create a sanctuary city, right, which, justin if we 405 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 3: talk about my situation, I'm in San Diego, are mayor 406 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 3: is terrible and want to turn all our street lights 407 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 3: into spies, right, like put little cameras on them so 408 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 3: that they can watch what we're doing, and like this 409 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 3: information feeds into we know exactly where the future center 410 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 3: is actually, Like I wrote about this in twenty twenty 411 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 3: when the cops took someone's phone and used. 412 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: Gray key to crack it open. So like the yeah, 413 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: the exposure for people who in the US who are 414 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: not citizens of the US is very high with these things. 415 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: The last thing about these databases I wanted to talk 416 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: about was those aren't the only databases that I had 417 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: access to? You, right, can you explain how they've they've 418 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: managed to acquire some data about other people and whether 419 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,479 Speaker 1: or not that is strictly speaking legal. 420 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, so we have a massive problem in America with 421 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 3: data broker which is companies. The biggest, the worst are 422 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 3: Lexus and Nexus and Thompson and Routers West Law. But 423 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 3: there are hundreds and hundreds of data brokers who vacuum 424 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 3: up all of the information that they can off the Internet, 425 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:34,360 Speaker 3: off of utility records, off of publicly available information, and 426 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 3: basically make massive databases that are tracking to the best 427 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 3: that they can at every aspect of people's lives. Credit 428 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 3: reporting agencies, the people who like give you your credit score, 429 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 3: are also data brokers. They're pulling in all this information 430 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 3: so that they can assign you your credit which is 431 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 3: like where your credit cards are, how much money you have. 432 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 3: All this information is super valuable, right, and it's valuable 433 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 3: to advertisers. It's valuevaluable, yeah, like for marketing, but it's 434 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 3: also really valuable for law enforcement because you have everything 435 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:14,399 Speaker 3: from like addresses where people are spending money. Often you 436 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 3: can pull from advertised like phone advertising data, people's GPS 437 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 3: location and a number of these services have sold access 438 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 3: to ICE, both like Thompson, Ridge is Clear, Lexus, Nexus 439 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,640 Speaker 3: has several products that they sell to ICE as well 440 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 3: as Locate x which is now Babble Street, which is 441 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 3: specifically a GPS location company, and ICE has basically managed 442 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 3: to obtain through contracts information that they could not legally 443 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 3: obtain through a warrant, right, which is to say that 444 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 3: if you a police officer and ICE officer want to 445 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,360 Speaker 3: get information on a single person, you know, you want 446 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 3: their GPS location off their o't you need to go 447 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 3: to a court and say, hey, I'm looking for James 448 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 3: Stout and I think that he committed a crime or 449 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 3: an immigration he brook immigration law. Here's my evidence. I 450 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 3: need a warrant. You cannot get a warrant for mass monitoring. 451 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 3: That's like a fundamental part of how the Fourth Amendment 452 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 3: in the US Constitution works is that it has to 453 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:26,959 Speaker 3: be individualized or very close to individualized. But there is 454 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 3: currently no law that says that ICE can't just go 455 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 3: buy the information on the open market and completely evade 456 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 3: the warrant requirement. So that's what's going on with Lexis 457 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 3: and Nexus, with locate acts as well as complex social 458 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 3: media surveillance companies. Right. 459 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, the same database is that I, as a journalist 460 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 1: use when I'm you know, wondering if this Nazi is 461 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,159 Speaker 1: still living in this place, or you know, finding the 462 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: sense of Confederate veterans to check if they still work 463 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: at the Citadell University. So I think a good way 464 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: to finish this up will be to talk about once 465 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: you're in, you've gone through this process, right, you've CVP one, 466 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,879 Speaker 1: you've at d'd, and you enter into sort of the 467 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 1: asylum hearing or you have your your various different asylum processes. 468 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: Can Austin, can you give us a very broad overview 469 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: of like the likelihood of success and maybe a couple 470 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: of I know you're very good at monitoring the factors 471 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: that determine the likelihood of success and an asylum application 472 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: through TRACK. This is a great place to plug TRACK 473 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: if you want to. Can you talk about like how 474 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: likely folks are to be successful in that asylum application process? 475 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we monitor this federal data relates to immigration 476 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 2: other areas through TRACK transactional records access clearing how at 477 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 2: Syracuse University where I'm at, I'm also a research fellow 478 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 2: at American University, So we have a kind of a 479 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 2: fun partnership right now looking at different angles of connecting 480 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 2: data to research on Latin American Latino migrants. And so 481 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 2: we keep really close track of what's happening with the 482 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 2: immigration courts. We don't get data. Remember earlier I described 483 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 2: as two tracks of seeking asylum. We don't currently get 484 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 2: data on that first track, where people go through asylum 485 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 2: officers at USCIS. We're interested in it, but they actually 486 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 2: publish not comprehensive, but they published decent amount of data. 487 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 2: We would certainly like to get more. But it's the 488 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 2: immigration course that we have focused very heavily on for 489 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 2: the last decade, I would say, And so we get 490 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 2: very detailed, granular data from the immigration courts on a 491 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 2: monthly basis that allows us to see exactly what's happening. 492 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 2: I would say, currently, the success rate denial rate, however 493 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 2: you want to put it in immigration court for asylum 494 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 2: seekers is about fifty two or fifty three percent get denied, 495 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 2: about forty seven to forty eight percent are granted asylum. 496 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 2: But that varies widely by immigration court and by nationality. 497 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 2: So migrants from Central America, Al Salvador, Hondurasquatemala tend to 498 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 2: have much higher denial rates seventy eighty percent ninety percent, 499 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 2: whereas nationals from let's say, Ukraine, China, some other countries, 500 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 2: Cuba have very high success rates. Haiti actually is a 501 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 2: good example of a country that has very low grant rates, 502 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 2: very high denial rates, even though much like northern Mexico, 503 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 2: where we actually send people that we deport very often, 504 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 2: there are all kinds of travel warnings. In the United States, 505 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 2: government is not when people going to Haiti because it's 506 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 2: too dangerous, But we don't even have a problem deporting 507 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 2: people back there who are seeking asylum, right and so 508 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 2: that's what that's what we've seen in recent years. The 509 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 2: denial rate was as high as seventy percent during the 510 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 2: Trump administration, and so it's certainly much better under the 511 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 2: Biden administration. I do want to say though, that in 512 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 2: addition to sort of a policy related issues that may 513 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 2: drive this factor geographic concerns, people are much more successful 514 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 2: in New York City than say Houston or Atlanta, Georgia. 515 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 2: But one of the really important factors here is, in 516 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 2: addition to all of that, there's a threshold question, which 517 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 2: is a lot of people, including a lot of people 518 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 2: who are recently arriving to the United States, if they 519 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 2: can't get an attorney, it's very unlikely that they will 520 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 2: even be able to file in asylum application in the 521 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 2: first place. So that fifty you know, that forty eight 522 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 2: percent grant rate is for people who file in the 523 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 2: sylum application. We're not seeing, you know, the people who 524 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 2: don't even who aren't even able to file the silum 525 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 2: application in the first place. And one of the most 526 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 2: concerning things recent developments is that the Biden administration, I 527 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 2: think not for no reason at all. I mean, there's 528 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 2: two point two million pending cases in the immigration courts 529 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 2: right now. The Biden administration is trying to push cases 530 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 2: too faster. This is something the Obama insty administration tried, 531 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 2: Trump administration tried it, Biden administration tried it, and every 532 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 2: single time the cases get accelerated, including a large number 533 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 2: of family cases. Unfortunately, they simply don't have time to 534 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 2: get an attorney and file a good sylum application. So 535 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 2: what we're seeing as in addition to like geography, nationality, 536 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 2: does someone get an attorney, it's also speed, just how 537 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 2: fast the cases go through. And the reality is if 538 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 2: you try to force an asylum case through the immigration 539 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 2: courts or frankly even through USAIS in a matter of weeks, 540 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 2: people are just not going to win. You can't speed 541 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 2: things up and maintain a fair system. You just can't. 542 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 2: It's also not great for people to wait, you know, five, six, seven, 543 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 2: eight years for a hearing or for a conclusion, So 544 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 2: that's not ideal either. But you know, trying the force 545 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 2: cases through and you know two or three months is 546 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 2: just doesn't work. 547 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've spoken to people. I spoke to a friend 548 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago who was saying that now 549 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: he's seeing people newly a run. He's been in the 550 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: United States for a few years. I've gone through the process. 551 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 1: But he's seeing people come in and the amount to 552 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: pay for a lawyer, if they want to get a 553 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: private lawyer is going up. And like if people only 554 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: have a few months or don't have the right to work, 555 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: there's just no way for them to obtain that much money. 556 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: And then the people who are doing it sort of, 557 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: I guess sort of in for nonprofits, are just overwhelmed 558 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,479 Speaker 1: by the amount of demand. So, yeah, those people in 559 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: a really tough situation. 560 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we should talk a little bit about 561 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 3: the fundamental unfairness of this system. 562 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 4: YEP. 563 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 3: So like immigration judges areministrative law judges, they are not 564 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 3: like real judges approved by Congress. They are hired by 565 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 3: an administrative agency, which effectively means that there are much 566 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 3: lower bars to who can be an administrative law judge. 567 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 3: You also, as an immigrant, do not have a right 568 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 3: to an attorney sitting in front of an administrative law judge. 569 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 3: And one of the things that the data fres out 570 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,879 Speaker 3: is that in every aspect of the system, having an 571 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 3: attorney is the strongest indicator of a good result. So 572 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 3: that's like how likely people are to know about their appointments. 573 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 3: It's actually extremely hard if you are someone who does 574 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:46,360 Speaker 3: not speak English and has limited money and limited access 575 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 3: to the system, and frankly does not understand how the 576 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 3: American immigration law system works, which is reasonable because virtually 577 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 3: no one understands how it works. It's really difficult to know, 578 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 3: like when you have a much less to show up 579 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,359 Speaker 3: and to understand what kind of information that you need 580 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 3: to collect and present to a judge that will be 581 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 3: convincing to this person, who again is not an Article 582 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 3: three judge that's been appointed by Congress, not the type 583 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 3: of judges that you or I would have our cases 584 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 3: heard by if we were arrested or if we just 585 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 3: like file a lawsuit, and so access to a judge 586 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 3: is like the number one best indicator for whether your 587 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 3: asylum claim is going to be successful or not, or 588 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 3: any kind of claim in the immigration system, frankly, and 589 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 3: we do not provide that to people who don't have 590 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 3: the money to hire a lawyer. 591 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, which is fundamentally unjust. Right. 592 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 3: We also there's like not a guarantee that you will 593 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 3: have a quality translator, see you will be able to 594 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 3: show up to court and at all understand what is 595 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 3: happening in your legal case, which is a huge barrier 596 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 3: to be able to get at good results, to be 597 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,919 Speaker 3: able to communicate who you are and why you will 598 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,319 Speaker 3: not be safe if you were deported from the country, right. 599 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, we heard that in May where they were like 600 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,399 Speaker 1: they were basically asking if anyone could come and help 601 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: trans migrant advocacy groups. You know, does someone speak Commanji, 602 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: does someone speak Turkish? Just does someone speak Vietnamese? Could 603 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 1: they come down and help this person with their initial interview. 604 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: Which it's just not a not a just or even 605 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: reasonable way to do these things. But that's where it's 606 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: at right now. I guess I think most people probably 607 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: aren't aware of much of that. So it's good to 608 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: explain how fundamentally andjus it is so if people want 609 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 1: to learn more about this, if people want to follow along, 610 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 1: I know you both do some writing online. Where can 611 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 1: they find you? And where can they find more of 612 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: your writing about this? 613 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,760 Speaker 3: Yeah? So you can find my writing on the Electronic 614 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 3: Privacy Information Center EPICS website that is EPIC dot org. 615 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,720 Speaker 3: You can find me and my one hundred and fifty 616 00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 3: followers on Twitter at real Jake Wiener that's w I 617 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:06,760 Speaker 3: E n e R. And hopefully and in your future 618 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 3: you'll be able to find some scholarship for me as well. 619 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 1: Oh cool, Yeah, using the Donald Trump Twitter format. Great. 620 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 1: How about you, Austin? Where can people find you? You 621 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,360 Speaker 1: have many more followers on Twitter dot com. 622 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's Austin Cocher. Last name is Ko c 623 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 2: h e R. The peculiarity of that name is in 624 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 2: my favor because you know, pretty easy to search. But 625 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 2: actually this is a great timing. I just had an 626 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 2: article published this week, detailed one on CBP one. It's 627 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:39,320 Speaker 2: called Glitches and the Digitization of Asylum. It's an academic article, 628 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 2: but it is open access, so there's no pay well there, 629 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 2: glitches and the digitization of asylum. It's also up on 630 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 2: my Twitter page. I'm on Twitter at ac coker so 631 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 2: A c k O c h E R. And I 632 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 2: also write pretty regularly on substack, and that's like a 633 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 2: weird thing to say. I'm slightly embarrassed to mention that, 634 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 2: except that I'm not because this academic article emerged actually 635 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 2: out of stuff that I was initially exploring on substacks. 636 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 2: So I really loved that format for writing because it's 637 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,760 Speaker 2: given me a chance to work out concepts and ideas 638 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 2: before they even go into like pure ifew print. So 639 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 2: if people want to get ahead of the curve on 640 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 2: what I'm thinking, go check that out too. Nice and 641 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,320 Speaker 2: don't forget to visit track t r A C dot 642 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,719 Speaker 2: s y r dot edu to get all kinds of 643 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:34,319 Speaker 2: data on immigration courts, alternatives to detention, detension statistics and 644 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:34,840 Speaker 2: so forth. 645 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. I like Telegram channel as well. Right, it's like 646 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 1: the only time I can go on Telegram, I don't 647 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: see dead people, so I appreciate it for that. 648 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,319 Speaker 2: That's right. We put stuff out on Telegram and WhatsApp too, 649 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 2: So if you don't want to have to be on Twitter. 650 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 2: If you don't want to have to get an email 651 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,320 Speaker 2: on something like that, you just want to get a 652 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 2: little if you like some of those other messaging platforms, 653 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 2: we have announcement threads on there. You can't interact, you 654 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 2: just you just get the little notification. But we try 655 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 2: that we try to diversify as much as possible, especially 656 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 2: with the muscification of Twitter. 657 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty a good met Thank you very 658 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 1: much for your time, Beth, to you. I really appreciate it. 659 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 1: That was very insightful. 660 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:14,360 Speaker 3: Thank you, James. 661 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,240 Speaker 4: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 662 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 4: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 663 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 4: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 664 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 4: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 665 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 4: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated 666 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 4: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.