Speaker 1: I'm with Lucas and this is black Tech, Green Money.
Speaker 1: Doctor Lisa Williams is founder of World of Epi and
Speaker 1: The Fresh Dolls, where she helps children embrace their beauty, uniqueness,
Speaker 1: and positive play through doll representation. Her company is the
Speaker 1: largest black owned doll company in the United States. She
Speaker 1: was the first female professor at any institution to receive
Speaker 1: a multi million dollar endowed chair, the first African American
Speaker 1: professor to earn tenure at Penn State University, and the
Speaker 1: first African American to receive a doctorate in logistics from
Speaker 1: the Ohio State University. I asked doctor Williams about toys
Speaker 1: and since kids explore so much of the imagination around
Speaker 1: toys and dolls, how much does representation mean? Why is
Speaker 1: it important to have dolls that look like us?
Speaker 2: Yeah, because that allows you to dream.
Speaker 3: And I think that how you play as a child
Speaker 3: has a direct impact on what you believe you can
Speaker 3: achieve and will achieve as an adult. And it is
Speaker 3: about representation because when you see a doll that looks
Speaker 3: like you, could you really to it? And then as
Speaker 3: you're playing with it, of course, you can envision yourself
Speaker 3: not just playing at it, but playing with it and
Speaker 3: actually becoming what you're envisioning what you're playing with as
Speaker 3: a child.
Speaker 4: And so I was thinking about this.
Speaker 1: I thought it was so interesting if you think about
Speaker 1: that study that was done in the nineteen forties, the
Speaker 1: doctor Kenneth and Mamie Clark studying that show that when
Speaker 1: you gave little black girls, I think they gave it
Speaker 1: to little black boys also, but I know they gave
Speaker 1: it to little black girls. The choice between playing with
Speaker 1: a white doll and a black doll, they still prefer
Speaker 1: to play with the white doll. And I was thinking
Speaker 1: about this in the context of you may have seen
Speaker 1: black kids who are adopted by white parents, and so
Speaker 1: often we've heard conversations about they don't necessarily know how
Speaker 1: to do black kids hair, or they may not know
Speaker 1: how we need lotion in.
Speaker 4: A different way as had some other folks. And I
Speaker 4: don't need to be funny, but it is funny in
Speaker 4: that way.
Speaker 1: But I think about could there have been more there,
Speaker 1: and also that the toys that they gave those black
Speaker 1: kids maybe didn't show the best beauty of black children.
Speaker 1: I was just thinking about that as we were, you know,
Speaker 1: preparing for this conversation. You know, what do you think there?
Speaker 3: Well, you know what, I applaud Kenneth and made me
Speaker 3: clock on what they did, and I definitely stand on
Speaker 3: their shoulders. I think in their case, they did use
Speaker 3: two identical dolls, one which is white and one was black,
Speaker 3: and unfortunately, I believe that it was its ingrading systemic
Speaker 3: degradation of beauty of black and brown people. That is
Speaker 3: systemic and it goes generation to generation. So when they
Speaker 3: saw the doll, they just spoke what they've been taught,
Speaker 3: either subliminally or consciously, that darker is not pretty, darkest, ugly, dumb, stupid,
Speaker 3: and bad. And that's what the kids reiterating when they
Speaker 3: were asked about their thoughts about seeing a black doll.
Speaker 1: Yeah, super unfortunate there. And you you talked about representation,
Speaker 1: how important that is, and we talked about that for
Speaker 1: so long. You know, it's just the forties and having
Speaker 1: representation and toys and what do you think about aspiration? Also,
Speaker 1: because I think about not only in seeing my hue
Speaker 1: represented in the color of a doll, but also particularly
Speaker 1: a vision of the future, what do I look like
Speaker 1: as an adult male?
Speaker 4: Go ahead and see?
Speaker 3: And that is exactly the reason why I did these dolls.
Speaker 3: Let me just pause for a moment. You asked me
Speaker 3: about the Kenneth and made me Clarkstone the original one.
Speaker 2: Right, so we given Jim Crow laws.
Speaker 3: It's like it wasn't really a big stretch that our
Speaker 3: beautiful black and brown children would say that the black
Speaker 3: and brown doll was ugly.
Speaker 2: But what did shock me is when they.
Speaker 3: Did it again in two thousands and we still had
Speaker 3: the same problem. Meaning beautiful chocolate little girls in this
Speaker 3: particular example looked at the doll and said, I don't
Speaker 3: want to play with the black doll.
Speaker 2: The skin is nasty. That broke my.
Speaker 3: Heart and it still does today because at that time,
Speaker 3: of course, we had a black president, beautiful first lady
Speaker 3: in the White House, and even personally, I was achieving
Speaker 3: and breaking records in academia. I was the highest ranking
Speaker 3: professor in the world. I had two multimillion dollars in
Speaker 3: dollars to research.
Speaker 4: I would talk that talk.
Speaker 3: The reason why I say that is in a way,
Speaker 3: because I was breaking so many barriers.
Speaker 2: I was living in a cocoon.
Speaker 3: I'm about to cry again because I did not realize
Speaker 3: that our children were still suffering from this. I didn't
Speaker 3: realize that they are still thinking that they're less than.
Speaker 3: So even sitting at the top of my perch, right
Speaker 3: the highest ranking professor in the world be a black, yellow,
Speaker 3: green of purple. When I saw that, it broke something
Speaker 3: in me because there was an illusion that I had.
Speaker 3: We had the first black president. I'm achieving so many
Speaker 3: personal goals and professional goals. I'm just assuming we had
Speaker 3: moved so far. But out of the mouths of babes,
Speaker 3: I realized there's so many areas that we weren't. And
Speaker 3: so that's the reason why I left all of my
Speaker 3: accolades and started creating golf.
Speaker 2: And I knew nothing.
Speaker 3: Well, well, listen to me, nothing, I mean.
Speaker 2: Lessen nothing. But what I had was a passion.
Speaker 3: I didn't have any money, I had no mentorship, no experience,
Speaker 3: no background, nothing, But I had a passion to make
Speaker 3: sure that representation is prevalent in the doll industry.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's so exciting what you've achieved, you know,
Speaker 1: having received even the highest honor in the doll industry,
Speaker 1: the toy industry, the Doll of the Year. So kudos
Speaker 1: to you for that. And so talk about the importance
Speaker 1: of pushing the industry to embrace.
Speaker 4: Efforts like this, because I think about.
Speaker 1: While having that public acclaim, the industry doesn't always challenge,
Speaker 1: you know, champion innovation in that way. So because it's disruptive,
Speaker 1: it makes them have to do things differently.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, because before we came, it was acceptable. It was
Speaker 3: an industry standard that would just take a beautiful Caucasian
Speaker 3: sculpt and you put brown paint on it, and it's
Speaker 3: a black doll. You put tan pain on it, and
Speaker 3: it's a Latin, a dolt. And we came around and
Speaker 3: we said, no, no, no, Each individual ethnicity should have
Speaker 3: their own unique facial sculpt reason why is that because
Speaker 3: that's the.
Speaker 2: Only way it can be authentic.
Speaker 3: And but creating unique sculpes is the most expensive part
Speaker 3: of a doll.
Speaker 2: So I understand from a.
Speaker 3: Business perspective, while many companies chose not to do it,
Speaker 3: I get it.
Speaker 2: Our mission was different.
Speaker 3: I didn't come into the doll industry saying I want
Speaker 3: to be a billionaire, right, That was never my goal.
Speaker 2: Every time.
Speaker 3: My goal was and still is, how can I show
Speaker 3: beautiful black and brown children their beauty and their brilliance
Speaker 3: and whatever it takes to do that. That's what we're
Speaker 3: willing to do. And so since the responses have been
Speaker 3: so positive, now others in the industry are looking at
Speaker 3: it like, oh, wait a minute. You know, there's a
Speaker 3: market that's been underserved. They're dollars we haven't reaped yet.
Speaker 3: So now you do see a lot of toy industry
Speaker 3: moving into d united space. And I'm okay with that
Speaker 3: because as long as our children have beautiful representation, that's
Speaker 3: what makes my heart sing. So I'm really happy to
Speaker 3: see the shift in the toy industry.
Speaker 1: You so interesting to me is I have daughters and
Speaker 1: what it seems like from a parent perspective, it seems
Speaker 1: like the variation in the shape of the dolls has
Speaker 1: been embraced faster than.
Speaker 4: The hue of the dolls. So you have dolls with.
Speaker 1: You know to historically very you know shape lists, you
Speaker 1: know to you have a lot of a better word,
Speaker 1: shapeless dolls. You think about the history. I won't name
Speaker 1: any brands, but then you have very exaggerated body types
Speaker 1: in so many of these, and it feels like those
Speaker 1: exaggerated form the shapes of dolls have been embraced faster
Speaker 1: than the hues. Can you Is that just me? As
Speaker 1: a parent, or is that something that's relevant across the industry.
Speaker 3: It's relevant across the industry. It's it's very true. Yeah,
Speaker 3: we embrace it. Generally speaking, the population embraces unique body
Speaker 3: shapes and sizes, right, which is wonderful because it's all
Speaker 3: body positivity. So I love that. But you are very
Speaker 3: right when you say, but we're a little slower to.
Speaker 2: Accepting the skin tone. And and it's it's still heartbreaking.
Speaker 3: Because obviously we focus on multicultural dolls. We have dolls
Speaker 3: for every skin tone and every ethnicity. But I will
Speaker 3: look at our sales data and sometimes I'll see that
Speaker 3: our dolls that skew a little lighter sell better than
Speaker 3: those skewing towards the darker skin tone. And that again,
Speaker 3: that's a that's a that's it breaks my heart and
Speaker 3: it shows me there's so much work yet.
Speaker 2: Still for us to do.
Speaker 1: And with that, you did this this Black Panther release,
Speaker 1: which you know, I think is fantastic.
Speaker 4: Can you talk about why.
Speaker 1: That was important for the business side of what you
Speaker 1: have going on, and you can talk about anything else
Speaker 1: in the Black Panthers echosystem that is important to you also.
Speaker 3: Well, I still was saying Black Panther changed my life
Speaker 3: like I did so many of us right, talk about representation,
Speaker 3: you saw it right, and from the Marvel universe, we
Speaker 3: were included. We were primary. I love seeing those powerful
Speaker 3: female warriors. It was just incredible, and of course Chadwick's
Speaker 3: performance was just just awesome.
Speaker 2: So I saw that movie. I was changed and transfixed
Speaker 2: by it.
Speaker 3: So imagine how excited I was when what three or
Speaker 3: four years later, Marvel really reaches out and says, hey, would.
Speaker 2: You guys interested into doing the Black Panther dolls? It's like, wait, what.
Speaker 5: As they said?
Speaker 4: You know you yes, that is yes.
Speaker 3: And it was truly a labor of love. And when
Speaker 3: I say labor, it was a labor because we were
Speaker 3: so fixated on making sure the dolls were authentic and
Speaker 3: representative of the actors and the actresses in the film, and.
Speaker 2: So we wanted to We did.
Speaker 3: We custom blended skin tones, we did unique facial sculps.
Speaker 3: We even created a new hair fiber like locks has
Speaker 3: never been done mass produced, never ever been done mass produced.
Speaker 4: And we can.
Speaker 3: We do we have a pattern there because we didn't
Speaker 3: want to cheat just get anything that's on the shelf
Speaker 3: and say Oh, well, we'll take that because I know
Speaker 3: the difference between.
Speaker 2: A braid and a lock, right, my team does too.
Speaker 3: We knew braids wasn't wasn't the key, it was wear it,
Speaker 3: so we had to create it. So again, it was
Speaker 3: a joyful experience. But like anything that you've committed to
Speaker 3: and your heart is involved in, you go the extra mile.
Speaker 3: So we went the extra mile to make sure those
Speaker 3: dolls were authentic, representative, and beautiful.
Speaker 4: One hundred.
Speaker 1: Can you talk about ways how you view us in
Speaker 1: society and continuing to find ways to lean into our
Speaker 1: culture and authenticity and how that translates ultimately into pushing society.
Speaker 4: To change his behaviors. I think about us.
Speaker 1: Embracing natural hair in the workplace in corporate environments when
Speaker 1: historically that was a faux pa because it needed to
Speaker 1: be a certain type of way. So how can us
Speaker 1: continuing to lean into this our authenticity and having that
Speaker 1: representation from the toy level up change the culture in
Speaker 1: our day and age.
Speaker 3: It starts with us, right when it comes to our culture,
Speaker 3: it starts with us. It starts with us which we
Speaker 3: do recognizing it, appreciating it, and celebrating it. And when
Speaker 3: we want to buy and purchase things made by our
Speaker 3: community for our community.
Speaker 2: It makes a difference. One, it helps those black and brown.
Speaker 3: Companies thrive and grow, but then it also gets the
Speaker 3: attention of other major companies. I mean, let's be real,
Speaker 3: they may not always be socially conscious, but they are
Speaker 3: always profit driven conscious. And I'm not criticizing that. I'm
Speaker 3: just making a statement. And so when we as a
Speaker 3: community demand better and we only pay for what's better,
Speaker 3: then all companies rise up to that and they start
Speaker 3: producing better quality products for us. And that's what's happened
Speaker 3: in terms of dolls. When we started, it was very
Speaker 3: hard because there was no one else really doing authentic dolls,
Speaker 3: no one when we started, and then there was a
Speaker 3: buzz that started. I'm happy to say that now there
Speaker 3: are others that are really trying to do more ethnically relevant,
Speaker 3: more representative dolls. That pleases me again because our children
Speaker 3: and adults for that matter, have dolls.
Speaker 2: That represent them. But first it starts with us demanding it.
Speaker 3: We have to s and we demand not only with
Speaker 3: our voices, not only with our marches, but we demand
Speaker 3: with our dollars. That's really what people hear. It's where
Speaker 3: we use our dollars.
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna touch on this Toy Assocition t Toy
Speaker 1: Association Board of Directors a couple of times. And I know, Yea,
Speaker 1: you may not be the chair, so I'm not gonna ask.
Speaker 4: You to speak officially for the board. But I think
Speaker 4: about you, j.
Speaker 1: You just mentioned there's other people coming into the fora
Speaker 1: with other ethnic and you know multi you know, different tones,
Speaker 1: body skin tones for dolls, and historically when that happens,
Speaker 1: large retailers will pick one and there won't be enough
Speaker 1: shelf space for two or three different options. You think
Speaker 1: about that, like, you know, when I was growing up,
Speaker 1: you had one type of hair product that was for men.
Speaker 1: It was by a black company, and that was the
Speaker 1: only one you had. Today, you have different options because
Speaker 1: they have maybe an aisle for us when.
Speaker 4: It was just a a a section before.
Speaker 1: How do we continue to fight for and accomplish shelf
Speaker 1: space so that we proliferate in these retail environments.
Speaker 3: Again, everything and we're talking about economics and business, we're
Speaker 3: talking about money when it really boiled down to it, right,
Speaker 3: So you are so right.
Speaker 2: Here's a brilliant comment. Shelf spaces looked at like real estate.
Speaker 3: Right, So there's so much real estate, and that real
Speaker 3: estate should bring in so many hundreds of thousands of
Speaker 3: millions of dollars during a particular time period. So retailers
Speaker 3: are looking at, how can I maximize my real estate?
Speaker 3: Can I put what product is going to can I
Speaker 3: put on my shelf that's going to generate the highest margin,
Speaker 3: the highest turns for me. So it goes back again
Speaker 3: to us demanding with our dollars what we want to purchase.
Speaker 2: When we purchase.
Speaker 3: Things that are truly authentic and truly representative, then that's
Speaker 3: what the retails restock. That's when they start expanding that
Speaker 3: shelf space, expanding.
Speaker 2: That real estate.
Speaker 3: So they're getting a bigger bang for the doll for
Speaker 3: the product they put on the shelf.
Speaker 1: And so from to that end, so many dollars, particularly
Speaker 1: the dolls of color, have leaned on brands first in
Speaker 1: order to create that demand. You know, like I think
Speaker 1: about like a doc ment Stuffians doc ment stuffans with
Speaker 1: that cartoon first, then they can come out with a
Speaker 1: doll and do these other things. And we hear so
Speaker 1: often talk about you know, building the brand before you
Speaker 1: invest in physical products, because you want to make sure
Speaker 1: that demand is there at the onset. You bootstrapped first,
Speaker 1: and so there was no demand built up from a
Speaker 1: marketing standpoint for your particular offering. There may have been
Speaker 1: children and parents out there looking for representation, But how
Speaker 1: did that How did you make that work to your advantage?
Speaker 1: Maybe it was your background and supply chain logistics, I
Speaker 1: don't know how how did you create that brand awareness
Speaker 1: so that the demand followed.
Speaker 3: So it's amazing how one's life is like a thread
Speaker 3: that weaves through your life. So I was a professor first,
Speaker 3: as I said earlier, and as a professor, I had
Speaker 3: written books, academic books as real as trade books. And anyway,
Speaker 3: one of the books included Walmart executives, as it did
Speaker 3: Procter and Gamble, and that one didn't.
Speaker 2: But it included.
Speaker 3: Seers, military generals and the CEO of Walmart. I say
Speaker 3: all that to say it so I got to know
Speaker 3: the people at Walmart, and so they actually had asked
Speaker 3: me about doing publishing, like publishing children's books, And at
Speaker 3: first I said no because I didn't know anything about
Speaker 3: publishing children's books either. I was an academic, right, but
Speaker 3: I thought I want to support literacy and children, and
Speaker 3: I can make sure that all children are represented.
Speaker 2: So that's what I did in books.
Speaker 3: The books did so well that they asked me to
Speaker 3: do a line of dolls in the image and likeness
Speaker 3: of the characters and the books.
Speaker 2: But I said no, will.
Speaker 3: Because I knew nothing about dolls at all. Two or
Speaker 3: three weeks later, I see the documentary, so I go
Speaker 3: back and say, yes, Walmart, I will do this.
Speaker 2: So my story is a little different.
Speaker 3: But what I can say, generally speaking, for those who
Speaker 3: are looking to enter into a space like getting to
Speaker 3: mass retail is first of all, walk the shelves, walk
Speaker 3: the store, see what they have and see what's missing,
Speaker 3: whatever's instinct is what you want to now create a
Speaker 3: product for. And then you want to tap on their door,
Speaker 3: which actually is not that hard not to get meetings
Speaker 3: with buyers. I mean, it's challenging, certainly, but it's not
Speaker 3: impossible because all of them on their websites, be a
Speaker 3: wal Mart or target, they'll have how you can reach
Speaker 3: out to the buyers. They actually do look at those
Speaker 3: submissions online and then they'll call you in for a meeting,
Speaker 3: and then that's a whole different process of things. You
Speaker 3: need to do once you have the meeting, to make
Speaker 3: sure your meeting is successful.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we're going to talk about that, because that's
Speaker 1: what here for a black tech Greek money I want
Speaker 1: to be. I read that you you know, you decided
Speaker 1: to bootstrap. You didn't want to take on a bunch
Speaker 1: of investors because you wanted to retain that ownership.
Speaker 4: And so often we.
Speaker 1: Probably to our own demise box that into what.
Speaker 4: You can't scale if you bootstrap.
Speaker 1: You got to bring on investors. If you want to
Speaker 1: go big or you're just going to build a lifestyle company,
Speaker 1: you can't really build something that scales and you know,
Speaker 1: employees tons of.
Speaker 4: People if that's the goal.
Speaker 1: And so how how do you think about retaining control
Speaker 1: and or ownership And how did you find a way
Speaker 1: to bootstrap something that actually needed an upfront investment because
Speaker 1: you needed physical products?
Speaker 2: My god, it's an amazing question. So you are so right.
Speaker 3: I consciously made a decision not to accept investors. And
Speaker 3: the reason why I did that is because I wanted
Speaker 3: to make sure that the product that we created were authentic.
Speaker 3: And when I'm doing that, sometimes I'm spending more money
Speaker 3: than the average company would spend on dolls right because
Speaker 3: the hair's got to be right.
Speaker 2: So I got to spend extra money for the hair.
Speaker 3: I got a blend ex special concoct or combination for
Speaker 3: the skin tone.
Speaker 2: So I'm spending more money.
Speaker 5: I know.
Speaker 3: An investor would tell me, stop, you don't need a
Speaker 3: different face scope for every ethnicity, right the one for
Speaker 3: the black, or work for the white, wait to work
Speaker 3: for the Asians.
Speaker 2: All the same.
Speaker 3: I knew to be true to the vision and to
Speaker 3: really uplift these children, that wasn't going to work.
Speaker 2: So that's why I said no investors. Now how did
Speaker 2: I do it?
Speaker 3: Gosh, it was paid. It was painful, will I'm not
Speaker 3: going to tell you it wasn't. I started out by
Speaker 3: credit cards like most people do. Yeah, after I use
Speaker 3: all of my credit cards and friends and family. Then
Speaker 3: I mortgaged the house after the house, and I took
Speaker 3: what I could out of my life insurance. After that,
Speaker 3: I took what I could out of my retirement. So
Speaker 3: I literally was all in my husband's I'm the biggest
Speaker 3: gamble he's ever met, because I literally put everything.
Speaker 2: On the line for this company.
Speaker 3: And I didn't and it didn't work smoothly all the
Speaker 3: time because I had to file bankruptcy just as total
Speaker 3: transparency with your audience. It was not easy, but even
Speaker 3: in those times, I was still committed.
Speaker 2: To making sure that these dolls represent our children.
Speaker 3: So even then, I didn't want investors because if you
Speaker 3: take investors when you're in that stage when you're really
Speaker 3: vulnerable financially and now you're really at their back and
Speaker 3: costs like they have total control of the company and
Speaker 3: all creative aspects. I didn't want that.
Speaker 2: Again. I knew that it was going to be done right.
Speaker 3: It had to be done by me, with my heart
Speaker 3: and my passion to make sure that these children were represented.
Speaker 3: So yeah, no, it wasn't easy, but yeah I did
Speaker 3: bootstrap it. I still do today, and now we're very profitable,
Speaker 3: thank goodness.
Speaker 2: I am hiring people.
Speaker 3: We are moving into animation, so we're going to have
Speaker 3: animation series coming out, we're expanding our doll lines more,
Speaker 3: we're doing more licensing deals.
Speaker 2: So things are really good.
Speaker 3: And we own one hundred percent of the IPS, which
Speaker 3: is important.
Speaker 4: That's fantastic.
Speaker 1: And so what were the indicators when you were in
Speaker 1: those stressful financial times that said, you know.
Speaker 4: Just keep going because there's got to be.
Speaker 1: Something that's something that's a flicker of light in the tunnel.
Speaker 2: The children. For me, it was and it still is,
Speaker 2: the children.
Speaker 3: And when I would think about quitting, and I did
Speaker 3: many days I thought about quitting, and then I would
Speaker 3: wake up in the morning and I'd say, but if
Speaker 3: you don't do this, who is going to create dolls
Speaker 3: for these beautiful black and brown children?
Speaker 2: And I would.
Speaker 3: Envision them playing on the floor and just seeing how
Speaker 3: they would have nothing that looked like them, or they
Speaker 3: could have doll that truly reflected their brilliance and their beauty.
Speaker 3: And that will is what kept me going on every day.
Speaker 3: And I would but I was in a sort of surrender.
Speaker 3: I also want to say that I was, you know,
Speaker 3: if the things had turned and you know, things didn't
Speaker 3: take off, I was okay with that. I got to
Speaker 3: that point in my life where I said, you can
Speaker 3: either do it this way and fail, or you can
Speaker 3: stay safe and keep your same safe life.
Speaker 2: At the end, when you're lying on.
Speaker 3: Your deathbed, do you want to say I did it
Speaker 3: and I failed, which is a possibility, or I never
Speaker 3: even tried. I didn't even take the courage to try,
Speaker 3: or the experience I'm having now I took the courage. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it was rocky, but it won, and it won not
Speaker 3: only financially, but it won most importantly by really authentically
Speaker 3: representing our children. That's what gives me the greatest joy,
Speaker 3: the greatest high ever.
Speaker 2: Is this knowing I've made a difference in the lives
Speaker 2: of children.
Speaker 1: I've heard your problem in your company being described as
Speaker 1: a mission driven doll line, and this is this is
Speaker 1: this question comes from.
Speaker 4: The perspective of at what point are we just mainstream
Speaker 4: and just mainstream? Right?
Speaker 1: So I don't go to Kroger grocery store because of
Speaker 1: its mission that girl because they have what I need, right,
Speaker 1: And I wonder at what point? Not that there's anything
Speaker 1: against mission driven, but my question is, at what point
Speaker 1: is it just we have beautiful black dolls? Why do
Speaker 1: we have to be always statement making? If that makes sense, it.
Speaker 2: Makes perfect sense, and we don't. To answer your question,
Speaker 2: we don't always.
Speaker 3: We don't have to be. For me, I was purpose driven, right.
Speaker 3: It was a purpose seeing that little girl and make
Speaker 3: sure she had dolls that looked like her. So that
Speaker 3: was my purpose and that was so much that it
Speaker 3: drove me, Like I said, through the bankruptcies, and you.
Speaker 2: Know that was what continued to drive me.
Speaker 3: Had I been driven by money, just as an example,
Speaker 3: I would have given up and going back to being
Speaker 3: a professor because it's making way more money than I
Speaker 3: was as an entrepreneur for many, many, many, like decades.
Speaker 3: Literally I would have made more money as a professor.
Speaker 3: But it wasn't about the money for me. It really
Speaker 3: was about making a difference in kids' lives.
Speaker 1: That makes total sense because I think about this in
Speaker 1: so many ways. And I was having this conversation with
Speaker 1: I think doctor Key Holman from the Village Market in Atlanta,
Speaker 1: and we were talking about why it's again, I don't
Speaker 1: shop at certain certain stores. I just shop at just
Speaker 1: because they have what I need. But I don't know
Speaker 1: much about you know, what the mission is, if there's
Speaker 1: a mission that they promote. But I wonder, at what
Speaker 1: point can we just create a Tanka toy without it
Speaker 1: having to be you know, this is because we don't
Speaker 1: have black trucks in black bulldozer toys built for black kids.
Speaker 1: That's what I'm trying to say, is at what point
Speaker 1: can we get there?
Speaker 3: We'll get there when there's more of us doing it
Speaker 3: for purpose because the fact is there is nothing right,
Speaker 3: there is nothing, so other companies can just make a
Speaker 3: tonka because there's like tons of red and blue trucks
Speaker 3: out there for us, there are no trucks that apply
Speaker 3: to us, so we got to make a truck for us.
Speaker 3: Then once there's so many of trucks for us that
Speaker 3: it's like, well.
Speaker 2: I just want to make a helicopter. I don't care.
Speaker 2: I just want to make a helicopter.
Speaker 4: That makes sense.
Speaker 2: That's I think.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's I think we're in the infancy,
Speaker 3: and in terms of our community and manufacture, I think
Speaker 3: we're in the emfancy.
Speaker 2: But we're going to move out of that. And then
Speaker 2: you're right, it's just going to be an economic decision.
Speaker 1: Because you see so many toys as part of your
Speaker 1: board role and you just being out there, are there
Speaker 1: unique things happening created by black toy designers and black
Speaker 1: toy makers that we should be paying attention to.
Speaker 3: You know, I think the toy industry is probably one
Speaker 3: of those unknown, slash forgotten industries for black creatives. Unfortunately,
Speaker 3: I don't see a lot of black creatives and toys.
Speaker 3: I hope again to change that. I mean we give
Speaker 3: scholarships to colleges, we do internships. I'm always mentoring students.
Speaker 3: So it is my hope that we are not only
Speaker 3: creating dolls for children and that's going to continue generations,
Speaker 3: but we are also helping to educate and invite other
Speaker 3: diverse talent into the toy industry because there's a wealth
Speaker 3: of opportunity. We just need to attract the talent.
Speaker 1: Do you think you have a responsibility then to be
Speaker 1: visible and yeah.
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, and not only to be visible, but my
Speaker 3: entire company to be representative. So in my company we
Speaker 3: are one hundred percent diverse.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, And.
Speaker 3: That's important because we're creating dolls for Asian children and
Speaker 3: black children. And I'm not Asian, so I would never
Speaker 3: to do an Asian doll, right, That'd be inauthentic. But
Speaker 3: if I have a great talented Asian creative, then yes,
Speaker 3: we can work together as to create this amazing product
Speaker 3: for all children.
Speaker 2: And that's what we do. So yes, I do feel
Speaker 2: I have a responsibility to.
Speaker 3: Be seen, to be heard, and not only embraced, but
Speaker 3: to welcome, welcome in the next generation.
Speaker 1: It's interesting to me that you know you don't see
Speaker 1: and I've to be honest, I have not heard about
Speaker 1: many toy makers who are black people. To your point,
Speaker 1: we don't see enough of us doing this. And I
Speaker 1: wonder if, having seen you now and more people becoming
Speaker 1: aware of your story, if our creativity finds its outlet
Speaker 1: in that way, because maybe we thought we were supposed
Speaker 1: to deploy that creativity in one direction, but toys is
Speaker 1: a better direction or another direction that we should consider.
Speaker 2: I agree toys.
Speaker 3: The annual revenue for toys outstrips the entertainment industry. We're
Speaker 3: talking about must hundreds of billions of dollars in toys.
Speaker 3: But I don't think we recognize it as a community
Speaker 3: because we have the talent. Oh my gosh, have you
Speaker 3: seen the artists in our community. Oh, just breathtaking. So
Speaker 3: they just need to understand that there's another avenue to
Speaker 3: express that creative juice, right, and it's in toys.
Speaker 4: So what are some of the first steps.
Speaker 1: Let's say, you know, I'm an artist and I was
Speaker 1: thinking where we had Gracie's Corner on here a couple
Speaker 1: of weeks ago, an animation series on Big Big on YouTube.
Speaker 1: And there are other animators out there and designers and
Speaker 1: et cetera. What are some of the easiest ways to
Speaker 1: create those demo toys or those you know, sample toys.
Speaker 1: I'm talking about from a manufacturing perspective, like, what do
Speaker 1: we need to get started on the road of doing this?
Speaker 3: So let me make sure I clarify because there's two
Speaker 3: different I hear two different questions. How do we get
Speaker 3: into the industry or how do we manufacture product?
Speaker 4: What's the first steps?
Speaker 1: So I've got, you know, maybe the design that I draw,
Speaker 1: and I want to make this superhero cartoon character.
Speaker 4: I have a toy. What do I do next?
Speaker 2: Got it?
Speaker 3: Okay, So the first thing you do is you trademarket.
Speaker 3: Let's get what you created, right, So, let's get your
Speaker 3: lawyer go online, figure out how to trademark your IP
Speaker 3: number one. Then after that, make contact with If you're
Speaker 3: very first time out, you want to make a contact
Speaker 3: with a factory, and so maybe the best way of
Speaker 3: doing is working through a sourcing agent.
Speaker 2: And a sourcing agent.
Speaker 3: Can help you do a lot of things that can
Speaker 3: help you identify a factory.
Speaker 2: They can even help you develop terms with that.
Speaker 3: Factory, and they may have avenues with retailers perhaps, And
Speaker 3: so after you have your product made, you get a
Speaker 3: prototype of that, and then you knock on retailers doors
Speaker 3: and you take your research of hey, I walked your stores.
Speaker 3: Here's what I see you're missing. Here's how my product
Speaker 3: can satisfy it at a reasonable cost, and this is
Speaker 3: how I can deliver. And most importantly, here is my
Speaker 3: marketing plan of how I'm going to help you Walmart, Target,
Speaker 3: Maycy's to help move my product off the shelf, because
Speaker 3: that's the key, right we can all get product.
Speaker 2: On the shelf.
Speaker 3: And no, people think that's really hard, and it is.
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to say it's not. It's incredibly difficult
Speaker 3: to get product a mass retail incredibly well, what is
Speaker 3: really harder, if you will, is to get it off
Speaker 3: the shelf, meaning getting that consumer to walk in looking
Speaker 3: for your product and buy it. So having a great
Speaker 3: marketing plan is also what's needed. And then you just
Speaker 3: need to have great supply chain to get the product
Speaker 3: to the retailer, and then a great analyst to analyze
Speaker 3: your sales. What product is working well, what product isn't
Speaker 3: working so well, how do we improve the one that
Speaker 3: isn't working so well, and even suggest a replacement for it.
Speaker 2: If it's really not performing and.
Speaker 3: Just keep a partnership relationship with your retailers.
Speaker 2: And a lot of people don't do that.
Speaker 3: A lot of people think when they're working with the
Speaker 3: big box retailers, it's like, well, I'm working with Walmart,
Speaker 3: I'm working with Target.
Speaker 2: They got more than enough money. I'm just gonna shave
Speaker 2: a little.
Speaker 3: Bit off here, take a little bit off here, and
Speaker 3: not necessarily be a true partner to really succeed. Whether
Speaker 3: it's in retail or whether it's really in life, it
Speaker 3: is about being an ethic, integral supplier that will honestly
Speaker 3: work together as partners with the retailer to actually move
Speaker 3: product and to get your product into the hands of
Speaker 3: the consumer.
Speaker 1: So you went to school for logistics, your doctor there
Speaker 1: first PhD from the Ohio State University of black woman
Speaker 1: African American period, not even just black women to have
Speaker 1: a PhD in logistics from the Ohio State University. And
Speaker 1: I heard you say a couple of things in your
Speaker 1: tutorial there on how to come from idea to execution
Speaker 1: on toys. I'm assuming some of your logistics background helped
Speaker 1: you speak the language.
Speaker 3: Yes, it did, particularly when it came to the manufacturing
Speaker 3: and the shipping and going and shipping internationally and the warehousing.
Speaker 2: And yes, it absolutely did.
Speaker 3: But I will tell you I wrote books on logistics
Speaker 3: and supply chain, I wrote articles on it.
Speaker 2: I did a dissertation thesis on it.
Speaker 3: Nothing really prepared me until I actually did it.
Speaker 2: You know, it's one thing to study it and to
Speaker 2: write about it.
Speaker 3: It's a whole nother ballgame to really get your feed
Speaker 3: in there and start doing it. But yes, having that
Speaker 3: background did help because I could, to your point, speak
Speaker 3: the language, or I knew enough to know what I
Speaker 3: didn't know, and I knew where to go out and
Speaker 3: get the information. And that's also very helpful. You don't
Speaker 3: have to know every answer. You're not actually you're not
Speaker 3: supposed to know every answer, but two things. You need
Speaker 3: to know how to find the answer, and you have
Speaker 3: to be humble enough to work with people who are
Speaker 3: smarter than you. I love that, because that's how you're
Speaker 3: gonna learn. If you're hiring people that know what you know,
Speaker 3: then you know, y'all, y'all not gonna proceed. But if
Speaker 3: you say you know what, I know this much, I
Speaker 3: need to hire somebody who knows this and I'm not
Speaker 3: intimidated by the fact that they know more than I
Speaker 3: do in this particular area.
Speaker 2: Now we can both grow.
Speaker 1: So I want to hear the I've heard you discussed
Speaker 1: before the benefit of not having a ton of experience
Speaker 1: in a particular industry category. And so often when we
Speaker 1: do have experience, we come in with defaults and assumptions
Speaker 1: on how things are supposed to go. But when you
Speaker 1: don't have experience, that can be a benefit as well,
Speaker 1: because because you can take roads people with experience won't
Speaker 1: take because they already made assumptions about it.
Speaker 4: Can you talk more about that that.
Speaker 3: It was one of the greatest revelations that I had.
Speaker 3: That question, right, there has so many jewels in it.
Speaker 3: What you just said, Yes, when I moved it to toys,
Speaker 3: as I said, I had no mentoring, I had no money,
Speaker 3: I had no internship, no experience, nobody to help me, nothing,
Speaker 3: literally nothing, And for so long, literally longer than I
Speaker 3: care to admit, probably a year or two, I kept thinking.
Speaker 2: That was a disadvantage, like I don't know what they know.
Speaker 3: They've been doing it longer they went to school for
Speaker 3: But one girlfriend told me one day as I was
Speaker 3: sitting there lamenting about it.
Speaker 1: I don't know this bill, sorry for yourself, right flyssory
Speaker 1: for myself.
Speaker 2: But what I don't know?
Speaker 3: And she said to me, because you don't know what
Speaker 3: you just said, Well, you don't have any perceived a
Speaker 3: concept of how this is supposed to work. You know,
Speaker 3: you can start and look at things fresh. And I did,
Speaker 3: and that's why I have custom Blenda Skintnes. Nobody else
Speaker 3: did that because they knew there was a book you
Speaker 3: could go to.
Speaker 2: Well I didn't. I had to create.
Speaker 3: Those colors myself, which it ended up being more accurate.
Speaker 3: And that's what we're known for now. So had I
Speaker 3: had that preconceived notion, Oh, just go to this Pantone
Speaker 3: book how we do business, the authenticity would have been
Speaker 3: very different. So yes, I come into this not knowing,
Speaker 3: and so I break all the barriers. I break the
Speaker 3: rules because I don't.
Speaker 2: Because I don't know any betre, I don't know. This
Speaker 2: can't be done right.
Speaker 3: No one told me you can't move from being a
Speaker 3: professor over doing toys and interacting with people and China
Speaker 3: around the world because you don't have the knowledge and
Speaker 3: background all the money to do it. No one told
Speaker 3: me that, So I didn't think it was impossible.
Speaker 2: I literally saw a TV show and thought I can
Speaker 2: create a dog company me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I did, And I did because I didn't
Speaker 3: believe I couldn't.
Speaker 1: So there are three overarching highlights from this interview for me,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to ask you after I repeat them
Speaker 1: for me.
Speaker 4: One, you came from a.
Speaker 1: Very successful previous career and you decided to give that
Speaker 1: up to pursue this. Two, there's not enough of us
Speaker 1: creating toys or seeing toys as an option, and we
Speaker 1: should see it as an option. And three, you know,
Speaker 1: the stop feeling sorry for yourself when you don't have
Speaker 1: as much experience, because that can be a benefit. Those
Speaker 1: are three takeaways for me, and I wonder if you
Speaker 1: could give us some of the best advice you've either
Speaker 1: formulated because of your experience or that you've received to
Speaker 1: help us to reach the kind of successes that you've reached.
Speaker 2: There's two pieces of advice. One is I heard someone say, gosh,
Speaker 2: there's so many. Now there's three pieces of advice.
Speaker 4: Just give us all give us all of it.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: So even for me, I remember serving on the board
Speaker 3: at Walmart and I was a young entrepreneur.
Speaker 2: I mean young as in five years with young entrepreneur.
Speaker 3: And I was in the room with these women that
Speaker 3: literally one of them had a companies had that was
Speaker 3: worth a billion dollars, others had seventy eight million, another thirty.
Speaker 3: And I'm sitting there and I realized that no, they
Speaker 3: weren't black women, but there were women, and that they
Speaker 3: had to change, you know, thirty seventy eight, one hundred
Speaker 3: billion dollars, billion dollar company. And I'm like, they're no
Speaker 3: different than I am. So it was representation for me.
Speaker 3: So representation counts.
Speaker 2: It matters.
Speaker 3: I don't care if it's skin tone, I don't care
Speaker 3: if it's ethnicity, or for success in business, you need
Speaker 3: a role model to know that it's possible.
Speaker 2: So that's one.
Speaker 3: The other is I always like to say to people
Speaker 3: that when you're doing something lived by your heart, it
Speaker 3: may seem crazy to other people, but ignore it. It's
Speaker 3: kind of like, you know, if you're looking at people
Speaker 3: who are dancing and you can't hear the music, they
Speaker 3: actually look insane. When you can hear the music, it
Speaker 3: all makes perfect sense and it's all orchestrated. So that's
Speaker 3: how I look at my life and I think, you know,
Speaker 3: for those who couldn't hear the music, like, why is
Speaker 3: she leaving a successful career where she's known all over
Speaker 3: the world and doing something she knows nothing about. Well,
Speaker 3: that's because they couldn't hear my music. So I looked
Speaker 3: insane to them. You know, fast forward twenty years, you
Speaker 3: know now I think they're hearing my music.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 2: So you have to follow your heart and listen to
Speaker 2: your music. Others will give you great.
Speaker 3: Advice, but always always listen to it with a temple
Speaker 3: of your music, meaning does this make sense for me?
Speaker 3: And another thing I'd also say, one other piece of
Speaker 3: advice I learned, don't play us so safe in life.
Speaker 2: Really, don't we have one life. Live it to the fullest.
Speaker 3: Don't sit there and say I can't because I'm scared
Speaker 3: or I don't want.
Speaker 2: I'm scared. I want to do it, but I'm scared.
Speaker 3: Take the step in faith and watch and see what
Speaker 3: it will happen. Because that's what I did, and it
Speaker 3: wasn't easy. I just I described it was not an
Speaker 3: easy process. But as I took the faithful steps, every
Speaker 3: step got easier because my faith grew. And as my
Speaker 3: faith grew, myself awareness, my self worth grew and as
Speaker 3: that grew, then I was making decisions that felt more empowered.
Speaker 3: And then I wasn't intimidated by the big companies anymore.
Speaker 2: It's like, well, I'll make as good a doll as
Speaker 2: they do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they got you know, three hundred thousand employees and
Speaker 3: I got three. But you know, we're doing the same thing.
Speaker 3: I'm in the retailers. There in the retailers, I'm manufacturing.
Speaker 3: I have factories, they have factories. So it's just the
Speaker 3: thing about scale. But as you grow in your faith,
Speaker 3: as you grow are seeing your successes, then you.
Speaker 2: Become more confident.
Speaker 3: As you become more confident, your company goes from one
Speaker 3: million to twenty million, thirty or fifty to sixty million.
Speaker 5: That's just how it works.
Speaker 1: Black Tech Green Money is a production of Blavity Afrotech
Speaker 1: on the Black Effect podcast Network and I Heart Media,
Speaker 1: and it's produced by Morgan Debonne and me Well Lucas.
Speaker 1: The additional production support by Sarah Ergan.
Speaker 4: And Rose McLucas.
Speaker 1: Special thank you to Michael Davis. Someone That's a Serrano,
Speaker 1: Mayamol Drew. Learn more about my Guess and other technis
Speaker 1: up there's an innovatives at afrotech dot com enjoying black.
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