WEBVTT - Making Space for Black Toy Designers w/ Dr. Lisa Williams 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:03.680 I'm with Lucas and this is black Tech, Green Money. 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:08.039 Doctor Lisa Williams is founder of World of Epi and 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:11.960 The Fresh Dolls, where she helps children embrace their beauty, uniqueness, 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:15.960 and positive play through doll representation. Her company is the 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:19.840 largest black owned doll company in the United States. She 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:22.960 was the first female professor at any institution to receive 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:26.680 a multi million dollar endowed chair, the first African American 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:29.800 professor to earn tenure at Penn State University, and the 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:33.000 first African American to receive a doctorate in logistics from 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:37.680 the Ohio State University. I asked doctor Williams about toys 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:40.520 and since kids explore so much of the imagination around 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:44.479 toys and dolls, how much does representation mean? Why is 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:46.680 it important to have dolls that look like us? 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:48.200 Yeah, because that allows you to dream. 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:50.320 And I think that how you play as a child 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:52.320 has a direct impact on what you believe you can 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:55.880 achieve and will achieve as an adult. And it is 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:59.240 about representation because when you see a doll that looks 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:00.640 like you, could you really to it? And then as 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:02.920 you're playing with it, of course, you can envision yourself 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:06.000 not just playing at it, but playing with it and 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:08.959 actually becoming what you're envisioning what you're playing with as 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:09.400 a child. 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:10.920 And so I was thinking about this. 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:13.479 I thought it was so interesting if you think about 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:15.440 that study that was done in the nineteen forties, the 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:19.959 doctor Kenneth and Mamie Clark studying that show that when 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:22.280 you gave little black girls, I think they gave it 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:24.200 to little black boys also, but I know they gave 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:26.840 it to little black girls. The choice between playing with 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:29.120 a white doll and a black doll, they still prefer 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:31.920 to play with the white doll. And I was thinking 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:36.680 about this in the context of you may have seen 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:39.640 black kids who are adopted by white parents, and so 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:43.119 often we've heard conversations about they don't necessarily know how 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:45.560 to do black kids hair, or they may not know 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:46.880 how we need lotion in. 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:50.520 A different way as had some other folks. And I 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:52.520 don't need to be funny, but it is funny in 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:53.040 that way. 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:57.200 But I think about could there have been more there, 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:00.640 and also that the toys that they gave those black 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:05.000 kids maybe didn't show the best beauty of black children. 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:06.840 I was just thinking about that as we were, you know, 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:09.400 preparing for this conversation. You know, what do you think there? 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:12.799 Well, you know what, I applaud Kenneth and made me 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:15.040 clock on what they did, and I definitely stand on 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:18.240 their shoulders. I think in their case, they did use 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:21.840 two identical dolls, one which is white and one was black, 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:26.880 and unfortunately, I believe that it was its ingrading systemic 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:30.880 degradation of beauty of black and brown people. That is 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.079 systemic and it goes generation to generation. So when they 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:37.320 saw the doll, they just spoke what they've been taught, 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:43.480 either subliminally or consciously, that darker is not pretty, darkest, ugly, dumb, stupid, 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.320 and bad. And that's what the kids reiterating when they 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:48.959 were asked about their thoughts about seeing a black doll. 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:53.120 Yeah, super unfortunate there. And you you talked about representation, 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:55.400 how important that is, and we talked about that for 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:57.480 so long. You know, it's just the forties and having 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:01.800 representation and toys and what do you think about aspiration? Also, 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:04.840 because I think about not only in seeing my hue 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:08.760 represented in the color of a doll, but also particularly 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:10.960 a vision of the future, what do I look like 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:12.320 as an adult male? 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:14.000 Go ahead and see? 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:16.360 And that is exactly the reason why I did these dolls. 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:18.120 Let me just pause for a moment. You asked me 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:20.639 about the Kenneth and made me Clarkstone the original one. 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:22.760 Right, so we given Jim Crow laws. 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:25.440 It's like it wasn't really a big stretch that our 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:27.760 beautiful black and brown children would say that the black 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:29.120 and brown doll was ugly. 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:31.920 But what did shock me is when they. 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:34.200 Did it again in two thousands and we still had 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:37.280 the same problem. Meaning beautiful chocolate little girls in this 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:39.760 particular example looked at the doll and said, I don't 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:40.800 want to play with the black doll. 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:44.840 The skin is nasty. That broke my. 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:47.680 Heart and it still does today because at that time, 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:50.080 of course, we had a black president, beautiful first lady 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.360 in the White House, and even personally, I was achieving 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:56.320 and breaking records in academia. I was the highest ranking 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:59.600 professor in the world. I had two multimillion dollars in 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:01.880 dollars to research. 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:04.920 I would talk that talk. 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:08.760 The reason why I say that is in a way, 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:11.120 because I was breaking so many barriers. 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:13.360 I was living in a cocoon. 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:16.080 I'm about to cry again because I did not realize 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:19.520 that our children were still suffering from this. I didn't 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:21.800 realize that they are still thinking that they're less than. 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:25.360 So even sitting at the top of my perch, right 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:28.440 the highest ranking professor in the world be a black, yellow, 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:32.560 green of purple. When I saw that, it broke something 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:35.000 in me because there was an illusion that I had. 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:37.640 We had the first black president. I'm achieving so many 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:41.200 personal goals and professional goals. I'm just assuming we had 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:44.320 moved so far. But out of the mouths of babes, 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:47.479 I realized there's so many areas that we weren't. And 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:49.680 so that's the reason why I left all of my 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:51.440 accolades and started creating golf. 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:52.440 And I knew nothing. 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:56.040 Well, well, listen to me, nothing, I mean. 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:59.599 Lessen nothing. But what I had was a passion. 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:02.720 I didn't have any money, I had no mentorship, no experience, 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:06.000 no background, nothing, But I had a passion to make 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:10.279 sure that representation is prevalent in the doll industry. 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:14.400 Yeah, and it's so exciting what you've achieved, you know, 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:18.280 having received even the highest honor in the doll industry, 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:20.880 the toy industry, the Doll of the Year. So kudos 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:25.240 to you for that. And so talk about the importance 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:28.520 of pushing the industry to embrace. 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:29.960 Efforts like this, because I think about. 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:34.000 While having that public acclaim, the industry doesn't always challenge, 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:37.080 you know, champion innovation in that way. So because it's disruptive, 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:38.880 it makes them have to do things differently. 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:43.520 Absolutely, because before we came, it was acceptable. It was 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:47.080 an industry standard that would just take a beautiful Caucasian 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:49.600 sculpt and you put brown paint on it, and it's 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:51.279 a black doll. You put tan pain on it, and 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:53.400 it's a Latin, a dolt. And we came around and 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:57.080 we said, no, no, no, Each individual ethnicity should have 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:01.040 their own unique facial sculpt reason why is that because 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:01.360 that's the. 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:02.800 Only way it can be authentic. 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:07.479 And but creating unique sculpes is the most expensive part 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:07.920 of a doll. 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:09.360 So I understand from a. 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:12.560 Business perspective, while many companies chose not to do it, 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:13.240 I get it. 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:15.279 Our mission was different. 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:17.880 I didn't come into the doll industry saying I want 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:21.080 to be a billionaire, right, That was never my goal. 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:22.080 Every time. 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:25.320 My goal was and still is, how can I show 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:28.960 beautiful black and brown children their beauty and their brilliance 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:31.360 and whatever it takes to do that. That's what we're 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:34.560 willing to do. And so since the responses have been 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:38.320 so positive, now others in the industry are looking at 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:41.159 it like, oh, wait a minute. You know, there's a 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:45.960 market that's been underserved. They're dollars we haven't reaped yet. 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:48.320 So now you do see a lot of toy industry 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:51.920 moving into d united space. And I'm okay with that 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:55.520 because as long as our children have beautiful representation, that's 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:57.680 what makes my heart sing. So I'm really happy to 0:06:57.680 --> 0:06:59.440 see the shift in the toy industry. 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:03.000 You so interesting to me is I have daughters and 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:07.279 what it seems like from a parent perspective, it seems 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:10.880 like the variation in the shape of the dolls has 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:12.280 been embraced faster than. 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:14.560 The hue of the dolls. So you have dolls with. 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:19.800 You know to historically very you know shape lists, you 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:22.160 know to you have a lot of a better word, 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:25.280 shapeless dolls. You think about the history. I won't name 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:28.960 any brands, but then you have very exaggerated body types 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:32.280 in so many of these, and it feels like those 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:36.560 exaggerated form the shapes of dolls have been embraced faster 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:38.920 than the hues. Can you Is that just me? As 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:42.960 a parent, or is that something that's relevant across the industry. 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:47.280 It's relevant across the industry. It's it's very true. Yeah, 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:51.119 we embrace it. Generally speaking, the population embraces unique body 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:53.800 shapes and sizes, right, which is wonderful because it's all 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:56.560 body positivity. So I love that. But you are very 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:59.000 right when you say, but we're a little slower to. 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:03.080 Accepting the skin tone. And and it's it's still heartbreaking. 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:06.080 Because obviously we focus on multicultural dolls. We have dolls 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:09.120 for every skin tone and every ethnicity. But I will 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:11.960 look at our sales data and sometimes I'll see that 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:15.120 our dolls that skew a little lighter sell better than 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:18.320 those skewing towards the darker skin tone. And that again, 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:21.000 that's a that's a that's it breaks my heart and 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:22.679 it shows me there's so much work yet. 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:23.480 Still for us to do. 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:27.360 And with that, you did this this Black Panther release, 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:29.160 which you know, I think is fantastic. 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:32.079 Can you talk about why. 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:34.920 That was important for the business side of what you 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:36.720 have going on, and you can talk about anything else 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:40.400 in the Black Panthers echosystem that is important to you also. 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:43.800 Well, I still was saying Black Panther changed my life 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:46.720 like I did so many of us right, talk about representation, 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:50.000 you saw it right, and from the Marvel universe, we 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:53.800 were included. We were primary. I love seeing those powerful 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:57.640 female warriors. It was just incredible, and of course Chadwick's 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:00.320 performance was just just awesome. 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:04.080 So I saw that movie. I was changed and transfixed 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:04.439 by it. 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:07.360 So imagine how excited I was when what three or 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:11.520 four years later, Marvel really reaches out and says, hey, would. 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:14.840 You guys interested into doing the Black Panther dolls? It's like, wait, what. 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:17.400 As they said? 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:20.760 You know you yes, that is yes. 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:24.160 And it was truly a labor of love. And when 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:26.679 I say labor, it was a labor because we were 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:29.760 so fixated on making sure the dolls were authentic and 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:33.120 representative of the actors and the actresses in the film, and. 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:34.440 So we wanted to We did. 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:37.520 We custom blended skin tones, we did unique facial sculps. 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:42.600 We even created a new hair fiber like locks has 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:46.280 never been done mass produced, never ever been done mass produced. 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:46.480 And we can. 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:51.040 We do we have a pattern there because we didn't 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:53.280 want to cheat just get anything that's on the shelf 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:55.200 and say Oh, well, we'll take that because I know 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:56.239 the difference between. 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:58.160 A braid and a lock, right, my team does too. 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:00.480 We knew braids wasn't wasn't the key, it was wear it, 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.320 so we had to create it. So again, it was 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:06.240 a joyful experience. But like anything that you've committed to 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:08.880 and your heart is involved in, you go the extra mile. 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:11.160 So we went the extra mile to make sure those 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:14.320 dolls were authentic, representative, and beautiful. 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:15.319 One hundred. 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:19.840 Can you talk about ways how you view us in 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:23.280 society and continuing to find ways to lean into our 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:29.200 culture and authenticity and how that translates ultimately into pushing society. 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:31.240 To change his behaviors. I think about us. 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:34.280 Embracing natural hair in the workplace in corporate environments when 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:36.760 historically that was a faux pa because it needed to 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:39.720 be a certain type of way. So how can us 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:44.439 continuing to lean into this our authenticity and having that 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:47.439 representation from the toy level up change the culture in 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:49.839 our day and age. 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:53.920 It starts with us, right when it comes to our culture, 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:56.400 it starts with us. It starts with us which we 0:10:56.440 --> 0:11:00.680 do recognizing it, appreciating it, and celebrating it. And when 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:03.880 we want to buy and purchase things made by our 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:05.480 community for our community. 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:09.199 It makes a difference. One, it helps those black and brown. 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:11.720 Companies thrive and grow, but then it also gets the 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:15.280 attention of other major companies. I mean, let's be real, 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:18.520 they may not always be socially conscious, but they are 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:21.959 always profit driven conscious. And I'm not criticizing that. I'm 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:25.679 just making a statement. And so when we as a 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:29.120 community demand better and we only pay for what's better, 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:32.760 then all companies rise up to that and they start 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:36.000 producing better quality products for us. And that's what's happened 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:40.240 in terms of dolls. When we started, it was very 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:42.880 hard because there was no one else really doing authentic dolls, 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:45.440 no one when we started, and then there was a 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:48.440 buzz that started. I'm happy to say that now there 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:52.199 are others that are really trying to do more ethnically relevant, 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:56.520 more representative dolls. That pleases me again because our children 0:11:56.720 --> 0:11:59.040 and adults for that matter, have dolls. 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:01.640 That represent them. But first it starts with us demanding it. 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:04.000 We have to s and we demand not only with 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:06.840 our voices, not only with our marches, but we demand 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.120 with our dollars. That's really what people hear. It's where 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:11.040 we use our dollars. 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:14.360 So I'm gonna touch on this Toy Assocition t Toy 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:16.720 Association Board of Directors a couple of times. And I know, Yea, 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:18.280 you may not be the chair, so I'm not gonna ask. 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:20.839 You to speak officially for the board. But I think 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:21.760 about you, j. 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:24.480 You just mentioned there's other people coming into the fora 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:28.319 with other ethnic and you know multi you know, different tones, 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:33.560 body skin tones for dolls, and historically when that happens, 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:37.120 large retailers will pick one and there won't be enough 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.520 shelf space for two or three different options. You think 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:42.720 about that, like, you know, when I was growing up, 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:45.240 you had one type of hair product that was for men. 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:46.760 It was by a black company, and that was the 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:49.720 only one you had. Today, you have different options because 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:51.959 they have maybe an aisle for us when. 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:54.559 It was just a a a section before. 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:59.480 How do we continue to fight for and accomplish shelf 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.520 space so that we proliferate in these retail environments. 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:08.719 Again, everything and we're talking about economics and business, we're 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:11.040 talking about money when it really boiled down to it, right, 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:12.360 So you are so right. 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:15.880 Here's a brilliant comment. Shelf spaces looked at like real estate. 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.040 Right, So there's so much real estate, and that real 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:20.199 estate should bring in so many hundreds of thousands of 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:24.280 millions of dollars during a particular time period. So retailers 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:26.800 are looking at, how can I maximize my real estate? 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:28.960 Can I put what product is going to can I 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:31.600 put on my shelf that's going to generate the highest margin, 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:34.320 the highest turns for me. So it goes back again 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:38.040 to us demanding with our dollars what we want to purchase. 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:39.679 When we purchase. 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:43.040 Things that are truly authentic and truly representative, then that's 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:46.600 what the retails restock. That's when they start expanding that 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.120 shelf space, expanding. 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:49.280 That real estate. 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:51.720 So they're getting a bigger bang for the doll for 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:53.000 the product they put on the shelf. 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:57.839 And so from to that end, so many dollars, particularly 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:01.240 the dolls of color, have leaned on brands first in 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:03.480 order to create that demand. You know, like I think 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:06.160 about like a doc ment Stuffians doc ment stuffans with 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:07.920 that cartoon first, then they can come out with a 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:11.360 doll and do these other things. And we hear so 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:14.559 often talk about you know, building the brand before you 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:17.160 invest in physical products, because you want to make sure 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:21.480 that demand is there at the onset. You bootstrapped first, 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:24.120 and so there was no demand built up from a 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:27.280 marketing standpoint for your particular offering. There may have been 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.160 children and parents out there looking for representation, But how 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:34.280 did that How did you make that work to your advantage? 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:37.920 Maybe it was your background and supply chain logistics, I 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:40.600 don't know how how did you create that brand awareness 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:42.640 so that the demand followed. 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:46.480 So it's amazing how one's life is like a thread 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:49.840 that weaves through your life. So I was a professor first, 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:53.040 as I said earlier, and as a professor, I had 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:56.040 written books, academic books as real as trade books. And anyway, 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:59.000 one of the books included Walmart executives, as it did 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:02.320 Procter and Gamble, and that one didn't. 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:03.240 But it included. 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:08.080 Seers, military generals and the CEO of Walmart. I say 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:09.600 all that to say it so I got to know 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:13.040 the people at Walmart, and so they actually had asked 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:16.520 me about doing publishing, like publishing children's books, And at 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:18.240 first I said no because I didn't know anything about 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.800 publishing children's books either. I was an academic, right, but 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:24.760 I thought I want to support literacy and children, and 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:27.120 I can make sure that all children are represented. 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:29.400 So that's what I did in books. 0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:31.160 The books did so well that they asked me to 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:33.000 do a line of dolls in the image and likeness 0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:34.160 of the characters and the books. 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:36.240 But I said no, will. 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:40.040 Because I knew nothing about dolls at all. Two or 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:43.120 three weeks later, I see the documentary, so I go 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:45.360 back and say, yes, Walmart, I will do this. 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:47.520 So my story is a little different. 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:50.440 But what I can say, generally speaking, for those who 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:52.440 are looking to enter into a space like getting to 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:56.240 mass retail is first of all, walk the shelves, walk 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:59.280 the store, see what they have and see what's missing, 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:01.880 whatever's instinct is what you want to now create a 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:04.840 product for. And then you want to tap on their door, 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:07.320 which actually is not that hard not to get meetings 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:10.040 with buyers. I mean, it's challenging, certainly, but it's not 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:12.640 impossible because all of them on their websites, be a 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:14.840 wal Mart or target, they'll have how you can reach 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:18.200 out to the buyers. They actually do look at those 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:21.480 submissions online and then they'll call you in for a meeting, 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:23.640 and then that's a whole different process of things. You 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:25.320 need to do once you have the meeting, to make 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:26.560 sure your meeting is successful. 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:28.120 Oh yeah, we're going to talk about that, because that's 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:31.280 what here for a black tech Greek money I want 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:33.080 to be. I read that you you know, you decided 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:34.640 to bootstrap. You didn't want to take on a bunch 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:36.840 of investors because you wanted to retain that ownership. 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:38.400 And so often we. 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:43.880 Probably to our own demise box that into what. 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:46.200 You can't scale if you bootstrap. 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:47.680 You got to bring on investors. If you want to 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:50.520 go big or you're just going to build a lifestyle company, 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.160 you can't really build something that scales and you know, 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:54.280 employees tons of. 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:55.800 People if that's the goal. 0:16:56.280 --> 0:17:00.800 And so how how do you think about retaining control 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:03.880 and or ownership And how did you find a way 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:07.480 to bootstrap something that actually needed an upfront investment because 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:09.119 you needed physical products? 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:12.880 My god, it's an amazing question. So you are so right. 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:15.879 I consciously made a decision not to accept investors. And 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:18.240 the reason why I did that is because I wanted 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:20.680 to make sure that the product that we created were authentic. 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:24.119 And when I'm doing that, sometimes I'm spending more money 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:26.640 than the average company would spend on dolls right because 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:27.520 the hair's got to be right. 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:29.040 So I got to spend extra money for the hair. 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:32.520 I got a blend ex special concoct or combination for 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:33.200 the skin tone. 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:34.560 So I'm spending more money. 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:34.879 I know. 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:37.600 An investor would tell me, stop, you don't need a 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:39.919 different face scope for every ethnicity, right the one for 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:41.320 the black, or work for the white, wait to work 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:42.240 for the Asians. 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:42.360 All the same. 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.399 I knew to be true to the vision and to 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:47.360 really uplift these children, that wasn't going to work. 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:50.320 So that's why I said no investors. Now how did 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:50.840 I do it? 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:54.760 Gosh, it was paid. It was painful, will I'm not 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:57.280 going to tell you it wasn't. I started out by 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:00.199 credit cards like most people do. Yeah, after I use 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:02.679 all of my credit cards and friends and family. Then 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:05.800 I mortgaged the house after the house, and I took 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:08.280 what I could out of my life insurance. After that, 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:11.320 I took what I could out of my retirement. So 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:15.119 I literally was all in my husband's I'm the biggest 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:18.840 gamble he's ever met, because I literally put everything. 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:20.000 On the line for this company. 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:22.600 And I didn't and it didn't work smoothly all the 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.200 time because I had to file bankruptcy just as total 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:29.040 transparency with your audience. It was not easy, but even 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:31.840 in those times, I was still committed. 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:33.840 To making sure that these dolls represent our children. 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:36.320 So even then, I didn't want investors because if you 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:38.520 take investors when you're in that stage when you're really 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:42.480 vulnerable financially and now you're really at their back and 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:45.280 costs like they have total control of the company and 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:48.480 all creative aspects. I didn't want that. 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:51.000 Again. I knew that it was going to be done right. 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:54.920