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Speaker 1: I want to acknowledge something. If I could have done

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Speaker 1: airban bill over again, I would have designed Airbnb with

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Speaker 1: more stakeholders of mind, including communities. I was twenty six.

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Speaker 1: I didn't really understand some of the things I understand today.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure we'd be in New York if we

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Speaker 1: weren't able to host on Airbnb. Tactics are starting our home.

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Speaker 1: It's an opportunity to kind of bring other cultures and

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Speaker 1: um just wonderful people from all over the world into

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Speaker 1: our home. Welcome to Calling Bullshit, the podcast about purpose washing,

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Speaker 1: the gap between what companies say they stand for and

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Speaker 1: what they actually do, and what they would need to

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Speaker 1: change to practice what they preach. I'm your host, time

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Speaker 1: onto you, and I've spent over a decade helping companies

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Speaker 1: define what they stand for, their purpose and then help

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Speaker 1: them to use that purpose to drive transformation throughout their business. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: at a lot of organizations today, they're still a pretty

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Speaker 1: wide gap between word. Indeed, that gap has a name.

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Speaker 1: We call it bullshit. But, and this is important, we

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Speaker 1: believe that bullshit is a treatable disease. So when the

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Speaker 1: BS detector lights up, we're going to explore things that

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Speaker 1: a company should do to fix it. In this episode,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna check out Airbnb, the short term rental platform

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Speaker 1: who have welcomed more than a billion guests around the world.

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Speaker 1: Airbnb says its purpose is to create a world in

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Speaker 1: which anyone can belong anywhere. That's a pretty lofty purpose,

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Speaker 1: but I'm a believer, so much so that I'll often

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Speaker 1: stay in an Airbnb when I travel instead of staying

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Speaker 1: at some generic hotel chain. I feel like I'm supporting

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Speaker 1: a local host and having a local experience. When we

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Speaker 1: talk about ways to stem the eviction crisis, one of

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Speaker 1: them is to ensure that people still have access to

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Speaker 1: homes if the vacant units are being um legally turned

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Speaker 1: into hotels for terrorists, and then that's one of the

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Speaker 1: main reasons why we can't get out of this eviction crisis.

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Speaker 1: When I started the journey of this episode, I didn't

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Speaker 1: think there'd be a very wide gap between word. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: no company is perfect, but as an Airbnb host myself,

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Speaker 1: I believed Airbnb was good for local economies and by extension,

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Speaker 1: local communities. But the more I dug into it, the

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Speaker 1: more complicated this story got. Airbnb started literally by accident.

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Speaker 1: In the fall of two thousand and seven, best friends

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Speaker 1: and recent risdigrads Brian Chesky and Joe Gebbia shared an

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Speaker 1: apartment in San Francisco. One day, they noticed that all

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Speaker 1: the hotel rooms in the city were booked because of

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Speaker 1: a big design convention. Being designers themselves, they decided to

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Speaker 1: host people who were looking for a place to stay

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Speaker 1: on an air mattress in their apartment. Inspired by their

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Speaker 1: hyperlocal hosting experience, they created air bed and Breakfast dot

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Speaker 1: com for people who had rooms and wanted to host

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Speaker 1: traveling guests. Soon, Nathan Blecharcik joined the team, and after

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Speaker 1: successful marketests at south By Southwest and the Democratic Convention,

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Speaker 1: air Bed and Breakfast dot Com got invited to y Combinator,

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Speaker 1: a competitive startup incubator. Now with venture funding, expert advice,

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Speaker 1: and lots of optimism, Brian, Joe, and Nathan officially launched

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Speaker 1: their hub for hosts to list their spare bedrooms. Those

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Speaker 1: were the salad days, and in a dude named David

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Speaker 1: changed the course of the company forever. So David is

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Speaker 1: barry Manalows drummer, barry Manalos Drummer Forever change our business

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Speaker 1: When he decided that he was going to rent his

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Speaker 1: entire apartment on his website while he was on tour

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Speaker 1: with Barrier. And before that we had this rule you

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Speaker 1: hadn't be in the place with that, you couldn't provide

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Speaker 1: breakfast on the laws. Seems so silly now that CEO

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Speaker 1: Brian Chesky describing why in two thousand and ten they

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Speaker 1: went from being airbed and Breakfast to Airbnb, signaling a

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Speaker 1: shift from spare room rentals to entire houses and Q

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Speaker 1: scary music, sowing the seeds of a big future problem. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: the company quickly grew into a household name. Millions of

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Speaker 1: customers were using the platform, hosts were making some extra cash,

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Speaker 1: and tourists were staying like locals. It was a big

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Speaker 1: win win. It was a win win, win, win win.

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Speaker 1: Everyone was winning hashtag winning. The fantastic success of their

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Speaker 1: platform also allowed Brian, Joe and Nathan to use Airbnb

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Speaker 1: for Good to step in, for instance, and help people

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Speaker 1: fleeing from natural disasters to stay in airbnbs at no charge.

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Speaker 1: Hurricane Sandy tour across the East Coast, causing an estimated

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Speaker 1: fifty billion dollars in damaged poems, gone and When disasters

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Speaker 1: like to strike, many people find themselves in need of

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Speaker 1: temporary housing and space to figure out just what's next.

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Speaker 1: Airbnbes dot org's emergency response program helps connect people to

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Speaker 1: temporary places to stay in times of need. But it

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Speaker 1: only took a couple of years until that big problem

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Speaker 1: we mentioned began to surface. The Senators with more in

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Speaker 1: calling for a probe of the company and other similar businesses.

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Speaker 1: She's claiming it takes away from long term renters and

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Speaker 1: inflates prices by making it possible to stay in a

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Speaker 1: home where the owner wasn't present. Airbnb hopefully inadvertently made

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Speaker 1: it possible to become a professional Airbnb host, in other words,

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Speaker 1: to host for a living, sometimes in multiple properties. A

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Speaker 1: property owner knows that they can make that much more

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Speaker 1: renting to tourists through Airbnb than renting through a permanent pennant.

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Speaker 1: And so unfortunately, what we're seeing is not only a

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Speaker 1: landlord deciding I'm going to, you know, convert this unit

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Speaker 1: to an Airbnb instead, but people who can all up

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Speaker 1: multiple units and realize, oh, this is a great business model.

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Speaker 1: By mounting evidence correlated Airbnb rentals with rising local home

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Speaker 1: prices and rent prices, more houses listed as short term

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Speaker 1: rentals meant less available housing or locals. As much good

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Speaker 1: as Airbnb was doing by housing disaster victims, it seemed

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Speaker 1: like more harm was being done by displacing people from

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Speaker 1: their homes and communities because of the rising cost of

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Speaker 1: local real estate. How can you feel like a local

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Speaker 1: as Airbnb advertises, in a neighborhood without any more locals.

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Speaker 1: At this point I started to suspect some BS, but

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Speaker 1: maybe a more nuanced form of it, one where the

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Speaker 1: gap between word indeed was unintentional, more of an unforeseen

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Speaker 1: side effect of their success. To check my math, I

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Speaker 1: decided to reach out to an Airbnb data expert, a

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Speaker 1: New Orleans neighborhood sustainability organization, and a New York City councilman.

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Speaker 1: What I learned from these experts changed my perspective to

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Speaker 1: a lot. Airbnb says their purpose is to create a

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Speaker 1: world in which anyone can belong anywhere. But is that

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Speaker 1: true or is it just a bunch of bullshit? Get

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Speaker 1: out your BS detectors, folks, and give your spare to

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Speaker 1: your neighbor, because this story affects the whole community. More

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Speaker 1: discoveries about Airbnb right after this before you head to

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Speaker 1: the break, we'd love to hear what you think about

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Speaker 1: the show. Maybe you were inspired to take action, maybe

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Speaker 1: you disagree with today's bullshit rating. Either way, we want

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Speaker 1: to hear about it. Leave us a message at two

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Speaker 1: one two five oh five five or send a voice

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Speaker 1: memo to CBS Podcast at co collective dot com. You

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Speaker 1: might even be featured on an upcoming episode. Welcome back.

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Speaker 1: To help me decipher the data around short term renting,

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Speaker 1: I reached out to Murray Cox, founder of an independent

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Speaker 1: data platform called inside Airbnb. Murray, thanks for doing this

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Speaker 1: and welcome to calling BS. Thanks Ti, I'm excitted to

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Speaker 1: be on the show. So to start out with, I'd

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Speaker 1: love to have you just tell our listeners a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about yourself and your work. I'm sure. I

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Speaker 1: started a project inside A B and B back in

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Speaker 1: and I launched it in February, and it contained initially

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Speaker 1: data for New York City on all the A, B

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Speaker 1: and B listings across the city, and the platform had

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Speaker 1: tools that let you drill into the data, so how

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Speaker 1: many of the B and B listings were entire homes

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Speaker 1: thus as private rooms. Murray made all this data available

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Speaker 1: for free, and over the years, he's expanded to other

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Speaker 1: cities as he's received requests from municipalities and journalists. Today,

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Speaker 1: he collects data from more than a hundred cities and

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Speaker 1: keeps tabs on countries as well. What motivated you to

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Speaker 1: to take this project on? Well, I think originally it

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Speaker 1: was just curiosity. I had um I just completed UH

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Speaker 1: summer camp on gentrification in Brooklyn, and so I was

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Speaker 1: thinking about maps and statistics. And then I just read

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Speaker 1: a couple of articles about ebbing b in San Francisco

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Speaker 1: and New York, and they were using data in their

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Speaker 1: reporting and it left a lot of questions unanswered, and

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Speaker 1: so I just wondered whether for my own neighborhood whether

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Speaker 1: I could collect some data just to see what it said.

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Speaker 1: And for my neighborhood, which was Bedford Steveson, the majority

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Speaker 1: of listings were entire homes. People had multiple entire homes,

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Speaker 1: and I thought that there was a just a story

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Speaker 1: there that needed to be told, and that that was

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Speaker 1: the original motivation. So that word gentrification gets used a lot.

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Speaker 1: Would you mind explaining what you mean when you use

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Speaker 1: that term gentrification? Yeah, I think that they're there are

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Speaker 1: different interpretations of gentrification, but primarily it's higher income coasts

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Speaker 1: of people moving into a neighborhood. There's racial gentrification. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: people use the cost of housing, so whether rental prices

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Speaker 1: have gone up as an indicator of gentrification. On the

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Speaker 1: subject of whether M and B is causing gentrification, I

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Speaker 1: think it's important to have an annuanced understanding here. There

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Speaker 1: are a lot of factors at play in gentrification, like

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Speaker 1: housing policies, property investors, and tourism. But in talking about gentrification,

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Speaker 1: Murray introduced me to another related term to ristification, the

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Speaker 1: affect tourists have in places that are seeing an expand

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Speaker 1: ection of visitors and the relationship between an uptick and

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Speaker 1: tourists and their impact on the housing market. In some

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Speaker 1: cases EBBINGB is causing gentrification or this torotification. Sometimes they're

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Speaker 1: contributing to it. And so I think the story is

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Speaker 1: different depending on where you look. Right, So, the market

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Speaker 1: that Airbnb took on originally was part of the you know,

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Speaker 1: it was commonly referred to as the sharing economy, and

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Speaker 1: it was originally intended or at least they said, for

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Speaker 1: home sharing. And it sounds like what you're saying is

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Speaker 1: this is no longer true. This idea that you would

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Speaker 1: rent a room in a host's house and in so

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Speaker 1: doing meet the host and actually have an actual experience

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Speaker 1: with a local person. And it sounds like that is

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Speaker 1: less and less the case on the platform. Is that true?

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Speaker 1: In preparation for the show, I went back to the

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Speaker 1: way back machine. They contend an archive where you can

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Speaker 1: look at yes sight in his three it's really interesting.

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Speaker 1: But I looked at the website in two thousand and

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Speaker 1: nine and the homepage that comes up, the first featured

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Speaker 1: property is a property in New York City. You click

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Speaker 1: on it, you can see it's an entire They call

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Speaker 1: it an entire place, and the host describes their space

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Speaker 1: as I'm not even in the flat. I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to bother you. So even um, the design of the

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Speaker 1: website back in two thousand and nine was such that

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Speaker 1: they had different categories of listings. They had a category

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Speaker 1: called private room, where you are sharing the space with

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Speaker 1: the host, but they also had this category of entire place,

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Speaker 1: and over the years it came to dominate. So let's

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Speaker 1: talk about that. So I think of Airbnb as like

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Speaker 1: a disruptor of hotels, and you kind of go in

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Speaker 1: in the back of your mind. Well, that's not necessarily

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Speaker 1: a bad thing, because the hotel creates a kind of

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Speaker 1: generic experience, and if I use R and B and B,

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Speaker 1: I'm cantributing money to a local homeowner and supporting the

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Speaker 1: local economy and also having a local experience. But it

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Speaker 1: sounds like these whole home rentals are having a bigger

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Speaker 1: effect on real estate values in the neighborhoods in which

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Speaker 1: they are most prevalent. The first thing that you said,

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Speaker 1: you perceived that A, B and B was disrupting the

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Speaker 1: hotel industry. Yes, and I think that was a very

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Speaker 1: common perception. Even when I first started my work. Most

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Speaker 1: journalists were saying it was a battle between AB and

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Speaker 1: B and the hotel's. Okay, so that that is valid.

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Speaker 1: But where is the bing B getting their rooms from.

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Speaker 1: If they were getting them from spare rooms, okay, that's

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Speaker 1: one thing. But if they're getting them from entire homes

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Speaker 1: and apartments that no one can live in while the

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Speaker 1: guests is staying there, and in many cases they're being

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Speaker 1: rented out full time, then it doesn't become a battle

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Speaker 1: just between hotels and B and B. It's a battle

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Speaker 1: between AB and B and the cities. When an entire

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Speaker 1: home is rented on Airbnb full time, one unit of

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Speaker 1: housing is taken off the market, housing that would otherwise

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Speaker 1: go to a local person who needs a place to live.

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Speaker 1: Frequently you get some arguments from EBB and the hosts

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Speaker 1: and lobbyists that's ay, look at the economic benefit that

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Speaker 1: we're adding to neighborhoods, people that are spending money. And

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Speaker 1: then the first question is that those people might have

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Speaker 1: stayed in a hotel anyway. And the second question is

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Speaker 1: how much does one resident if they're displaced, how much

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Speaker 1: do they contribute to the neighborhood, And it's usually hundreds

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Speaker 1: of thousands of dollars they're contributing to the local economy.

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Speaker 1: To be fair, the company is certainly not the only

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Speaker 1: reason for gentrification, and often airbnbers want to be in

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Speaker 1: neighborhoods that are already gentrified. But evidence does suggest that

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Speaker 1: Airbnb is a meaningful and growing part of the problem.

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Speaker 1: So on this show, we're focused on you know, what

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Speaker 1: we call purpose led companies, and Airbnb is certainly one

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Speaker 1: of those. They say their purpose is to help anyone

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Speaker 1: feel like they belong anywhere. But if it turns out

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Speaker 1: that Airbnb is causing gentrification in neighborhoods and forcing locals,

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Speaker 1: who are the people who made the neighborhoods so interesting

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Speaker 1: in the first place, to be forced out. That's basically

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Speaker 1: the opposite of their mission. So looking at it that way,

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Speaker 1: how big a problem would you say? This is? Well,

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Speaker 1: I think if we look at ebbingb's purpose or mission

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Speaker 1: to allow people to live like a local, the first

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Speaker 1: part of that, I think is the impression that you're

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Speaker 1: staying with a host. Right, So if the majority of

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Speaker 1: listings are entire home departments, um, sometimes almost all of them,

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Speaker 1: I think that they failed to that aspect. You know,

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Speaker 1: you could argue that in an apartment as opposed to

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Speaker 1: a hotel, you can bring your family, you can cook,

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Speaker 1: you could. Okay, they're meeting their mission there, but at

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Speaker 1: what cost when you displaced residents. And in many cities

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Speaker 1: around the world, the social fabric of the cities are

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Speaker 1: changing from tourism. What I found as I talked to

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Speaker 1: residents in cities like Barcelona, Amsterdam, Venice, Italy, is that

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Speaker 1: the city starts to change. In Venice, on any single day,

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Speaker 1: there's more tourists in the city than there are locals.

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Speaker 1: There's about fifty five locals, and the population has been falling.

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Speaker 1: Once you get to that stage, um commercial business has

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Speaker 1: changed changes like instead of a local hardware store or

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Speaker 1: a supermarket, more bars, restaurants, and nightclubs will open up.

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Speaker 1: And this touristification of cities means that they become almost

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Speaker 1: two dimensional Disneyland versions of themselves. And I think if

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Speaker 1: you're if you're talking about tourism sustainability from a long

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Speaker 1: term point of view, surely that would be an unsustainable

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Speaker 1: type of tourism, right, you know, I think we need

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Speaker 1: to decide what we want our cities to be. Do

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Speaker 1: we want them to be livable? Do we want them

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Speaker 1: to be diverse? Do we want people that work in

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Speaker 1: a city to be able to live there also or

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Speaker 1: born in the city to be able to live there? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And and and there's an additional issue, which is, you know,

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Speaker 1: these almost professional hosts who are in some cases just

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Speaker 1: big groups of investors who have raised a bunch of

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Speaker 1: money and gone out and bought hundreds of properties in

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Speaker 1: an area. And that that starts to get strange to me.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of a hotel that has been broken into

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Speaker 1: pieces and scattered throughout a neighborhood in a way. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think this is happening worldwide. There are multinational companies

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Speaker 1: that have raised money. ABBY is invested into some of them.

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Speaker 1: I belong to some Facebook groups where hosts talk about

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Speaker 1: investing improperties, and some of them have seminars and how

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Speaker 1: to create a property portfolio of airbnbs, and in many

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Speaker 1: cases they're controlling hundreds and sometimes thousands of properties. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: they're even doing it under the radar. For example, in

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Speaker 1: New York City, at one point there were hosts renting

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Speaker 1: out hundreds of apartments. Even though New York has a

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Speaker 1: one host, one home policy. One host managing hundreds of

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Speaker 1: properties is illegal to ensure that there's enough housing for everyone,

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Speaker 1: but compliance with this rule has been an uphill battle.

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Speaker 1: How does the city enforce that they don't know anything

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Speaker 1: about the host? They go to the bab website and

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Speaker 1: there's an approximate location. The host only has a name

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Speaker 1: that could be made up. They were mainly relying on

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Speaker 1: complaints from neighbors saying I think someone's using Yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: all these strangers wandering around in my building. I think

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Speaker 1: there might be an Airbnb. But if you consider going

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Speaker 1: back to when we're talking about this parrot. In New

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Speaker 1: York City, the fifty thousand Airbnb listings, about twenty five

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Speaker 1: or thirty thousand of them were entire apartments. A massive

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Speaker 1: amount of housing was being taken off the market, and

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Speaker 1: there's really no efficient way to stop it. New York

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Speaker 1: even went so far as to sue one of these

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Speaker 1: illegal operations, and during that case, Airbnb actually admitted that

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Speaker 1: although they worked to take violators down, they could no

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Speaker 1: longer stand behind the one host, one home policy. All

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Speaker 1: of this made me wonder about Airbnb's real intention with

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Speaker 1: regard to their mission. My opinion going into this episode

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Speaker 1: was that this effect, the effect that are having on

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Speaker 1: local neighborhoods is unintentional. They didn't design the platform to

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Speaker 1: do this, but they also didn't design it to not

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Speaker 1: do this obviously, So what is your opinion about that.

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Speaker 1: Was this intentional on airbnbs part or is this unintentional?

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Speaker 1: So when we look at the history of Airbnb, by

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Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, they have received six hundred thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars in investment, two thousand and eleven, they've got a

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifteen million dollars in investment, and two fourteen

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Speaker 1: and fifteen, they're raising millions of dollars venture capitalists like

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Speaker 1: Sequoia Capital and recent horowits. They're in the boardroom of

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Speaker 1: ABNB and they're talking about their business, and abb is

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Speaker 1: talking about all the regulations. They're talking about that entire

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Speaker 1: homes are being rented out for more, that the market

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Speaker 1: seems to be driving towards entire homes. I can bet

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Speaker 1: you that founders and the funders would have said, we

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Speaker 1: need to maximize the revenue. In New York City, they

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Speaker 1: were considering legislation to make it clear that people in

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Speaker 1: apartment buildings couldn't rent out short term. While they weren't present,

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Speaker 1: and ABBINGB lobbied against that. They must have known it

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Speaker 1: would have been bad for business. If they just cared

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Speaker 1: about home sharing or private room rentals, they wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: opposed that. In January, ab and B is aware of

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Speaker 1: the problem. It lobbied and spoke out publicly against the

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Speaker 1: passage of the New York state law in j that

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Speaker 1: banned a particular yet very popular type of short term

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Speaker 1: rental in New York City. But they didn't even make

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Speaker 1: changes to their side when the law went to effect.

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Speaker 1: They didn't advise their hosts. I think it wasn't until

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Speaker 1: that there was a settlement agreement between ebbing By and

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Speaker 1: the New York State Attorney General where ebbing me said, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're going to educate our host about this new law.

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Speaker 1: So that's almost three years later. I think all that

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Speaker 1: evidence shows that ebbing knew about it. They were trying

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Speaker 1: to fight it. And when cities sign laws, they don't

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Speaker 1: respect them, right, So I want to pivot to the

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Speaker 1: topic of cooperation. You wrote a report in December called

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Speaker 1: platform Failures, How short term rental platforms like Airbnb failed cities,

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Speaker 1: and and by cities, you mean globally this is happening,

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Speaker 1: And there were a few things that jumped out of me.

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Speaker 1: So in June Airbnb publicly said we're eager to work

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Speaker 1: with our host community, as well as city and state

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Speaker 1: governments on clear and fair regulations for short term rentals

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Speaker 1: in New York. But in your report you decayed that

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Speaker 1: they say they want to cooperate, but they're actively uncooperative.

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Speaker 1: What are some other examples of them seeing one thing

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Speaker 1: but doing another. To understand why this is important, you

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Speaker 1: have to go back, probably a few years, when cities

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Speaker 1: like Portland and San Francisco started introducing their own registration systems. Initially,

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Speaker 1: when the registration systems were introduced, they got very low compliance,

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Speaker 1: so the host just would refuse to register. In fact,

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Speaker 1: after San Francisco introduced its own registration system, Brian Chefsky

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Speaker 1: used to the CEO of ABBB, used to rent out

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Speaker 1: his own apartment on ABANB. Maybe when he was away,

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Speaker 1: he didn't register with the city, even though there's a

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Speaker 1: managery registration system right and so even a year after

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Speaker 1: these registration systems were introduced, the city found that there

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Speaker 1: was only about ten or of hosts had registered. Wanting

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Speaker 1: some ountability, san Francisco introduced a fine of a thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars a day per unregistered listing. At the time, thousands

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Speaker 1: of hosts were unregistered. In response, Airbnb sued the city,

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Speaker 1: eventually reaching a settlement and making registration mandatory for all hosts. Today,

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Speaker 1: lots of cities use registration to help gather data, enforce regulation,

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Speaker 1: and collect taxes. But still Murray says a lot of

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Speaker 1: airbnbs are illegal. In the report that you wrote, platform Failures,

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Speaker 1: I think you say something like sixt of the listings

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Speaker 1: in Paris in Berlin and in New York City are illegal.

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Speaker 1: So this is a pretty big, a big problem. Who

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Speaker 1: who ultimately is responsible for complying with regulations? Is it

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Speaker 1: is it the platform? Is it Airbnb? Or is it

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Speaker 1: the hosts themselves? Like where do you place the responsibility?

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Speaker 1: And I think that there's a legal obligation and then

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Speaker 1: there's you know, ethical and moral obligations moral so that

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Speaker 1: these are complicated questions. I think in the case of Airbnb,

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Speaker 1: they know that that this legal activity is happening. It's

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Speaker 1: a majority of their business. They're profiting from it. They

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Speaker 1: have an ethical obligation to do something about it. They

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Speaker 1: have an ethical obligation to be honest about it. They

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Speaker 1: haven't been honest about it. They don't disclose any data.

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Speaker 1: They spend a massive amount of lobbying that says that

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Speaker 1: these are just people trying to um make an extra back.

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Speaker 1: They need this extra income to stay in their homes.

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Speaker 1: They're really just lies. You can't pull a B and

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Speaker 1: b's moral heart strings and expect them to react, right,

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Speaker 1: because they're not that type of company. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: it seems to me if there B and B were

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Speaker 1: a good company, a company that that really has a

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Speaker 1: sense of moral obligation beyond its kind of legal obligations.

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Speaker 1: It seems like this is a real opportunity to proactively

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Speaker 1: get ahead of regulation, in other words, to stop seeing

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Speaker 1: cities and towns as adversaries and instead start to actually

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Speaker 1: collaborate with them and with activists like you to solve

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Speaker 1: this problem. Is that just a pipe dream or is

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Speaker 1: that kind of collaboration happening anywhere in the world. I

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00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: say it's not happening at all. Brian Chefsky says in

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Speaker 1: August this was after COVID. Brian Chesky thinks that MAB

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Speaker 1: might go down. They've had to get loans, they have

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Speaker 1: laid off the stuff, so maybe it was an emotional

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Speaker 1: time for him, But he says, we growth of us,

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Speaker 1: we made mistakes. I want to acknowledge something. If I

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Speaker 1: could have done airban bill over again, I would of

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Speaker 1: designed Airbnb with more stakeholders of mind, including communities. I

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Speaker 1: was twenty six. I didn't really understand some of the

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Speaker 1: things I understand today. I don't think any text CIO

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Speaker 1: should say they're inherently making the world a better place.

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Speaker 1: We have to acknowledge that there's unintended consequences the products

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Speaker 1: were making, and that we have to institutionalize our intentions

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Speaker 1: to serve multiple stakeholders. So I work really hard with

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Speaker 1: our team to try to make sure we're having positive

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Speaker 1: impacts on communities, will make hard decisions when we have to,

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Speaker 1: and fundamentally, I think our relationship with cities is going

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Speaker 1: to change. All the evidence Murray provides is pretty damning,

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Speaker 1: But when I hear Chesky talking about it, it feels

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Speaker 1: like he's maybe trying. I don't know. It seems more

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Speaker 1: like Airbnb just hasn't come to grips with how to

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Speaker 1: really do their purpose. You know, my wife and I

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Speaker 1: have an Airbnb in in the cat Skills. It's a

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Speaker 1: detached home. We use it as a guesthouse when we

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Speaker 1: have us who come and visit us in Pennsylvania, but

429
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: the rest of the time it's on the Airbnb platform.

430
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: And doing this episode has really caused me to question

431
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: the ethics of that. Um we haven't taken it off

432
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 1: the platform yet as of this recording, but it is

433
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: something that we are thinking about and talking about. How

434
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: do you feel about that? You know, airbnbs in rural communities,

435
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: is it ethical to operate at Airbnb in the way

436
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: that we are. Would you say it's unethical. I don't

437
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: think it's it's not necessarily unethical. I think it depends.

438
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: I would you know, I would probably think about understanding

439
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: what the housing pressure is because I think, especially in

440
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: a place that the cut skills, you don't want the

441
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: housing prices to go up for regular people that live there.

442
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: You don't want the city and towns just to depend

443
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: on tourism. Like I think there should be investment in

444
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: other industries, maybe trying to home land banks or other

445
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: things that provide housing. Maybe advocate for some type of

446
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: rent regulations so that people can still get there. And

447
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: just you know, for the record, we are registered so

448
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 1: fully fully compliant. Very very helpful, uh, to to really

449
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: think through the kind of ethical implications. Okay, Marie, two

450
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: final questions for you. First of all, if you could

451
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: tell Brian Chesky to do one thing, or maybe just

452
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: a handful of things to change to better live out

453
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: airbnbs purpose, what advice would you give him. The founders

454
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: of evan b are in a unique situation. Even though

455
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: they went public, they still own almost forty four percent

456
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: of stock. They have twenty votes more than a regular

457
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: show holder for every share that they own, so they're

458
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: in a unique position that they could even overrule some

459
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: of the investors. Some my advice would be, stop suing cities.

460
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: Stand down your lawyers, stand down your lobbyists. In some

461
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: cases they're trying to get preemptive laws and state legislatives.

462
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: Stopped doing that. Stop stop their political donations, especially in

463
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: locations that where they're loving for the regulations. You know,

464
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: I believe every city should be able to decide for

465
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: themselves what the regulations should be. And then I you know,

466
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: I think they could set up some independent regulatory councils,

467
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: all sustainability councils, but looking at the real long term

468
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: sustainability and impact of their business. And they should also

469
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: share data with cities so that cities really understand what's

470
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,239
Speaker 1: going on. Like the cost of doing a census right,

471
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: which only happens every ten years, is like in the billions,

472
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: and Airbnb is sitting on this drove of data that

473
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: would be incredibly valuable for municipalities. Yeah, I love I

474
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: love those ideas. So Murray, last question, and this is

475
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: when we ask every guest on this show. We have

476
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: on calling B something called the BS scale, and the

477
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: scale goes from zero to one h zero being the

478
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: best zero bs and a hundred being the worst complete bs.

479
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 1: Airbnb says its mission is to make everyone feel like

480
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: they can belong anywhere. On a scale of zero to

481
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: a hundred, what score would you give Airbnb? Right? Well,

482
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I really want to give them a hundred

483
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: because I've been fighting them at every tone. But I

484
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: want to be a little bit more analytic. So if

485
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: we consider them, maybe about the revenue is real hung sharing.

486
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: You know, I'm being I'm being generous there, but I'm

487
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: gonna penalize them because they pretend that that's a hundred

488
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: percent of the of the business or a large proportion, right,

489
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: So I'm going to discount that to ten, and therefore

490
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: I'm going to give them a bullshit score of ninety.

491
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: All right. I love that you actually you use data

492
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: to arrive at that school. Are very good, Murray. I

493
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: want to thank you for being with us today. This

494
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: was a great conversation. I also want to thank you

495
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: for the work that you're doing at inside Airbnb. Very important.

496
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 1: Great thanks to and and I appreciate this podcast and

497
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: what you're doing to really um call companies into account

498
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: from a different direction than the luck that I'm doing. Folks,

499
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: it's time to make the call. Is Airbnb really making

500
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: everybody feel like they can belong anywhere? Based on what

501
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: I've heard so far, I'm calling bullshit, But with an asterisk.

502
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 1: In the case where a host is an individual renting

503
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: out their space, Airbnb really is helping guests feel like

504
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: a local and providing a lot of these hosts with

505
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: the income that they might not otherwise have. On the

506
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: other hand, it feels like they're using these local hosts

507
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: as a convenient pr figly, since the vast majority of

508
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: Airbnb listings our whole homes frequently homes owned by companies

509
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: for the sole purpose of renting on Airbnb, using a

510
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: small fraction of their hosts to mask the real story,

511
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,919
Speaker 1: avoiding transparency, and only holding themselves accountable some of the time.

512
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 1: So with that mixed diagnosis, next we'll hear from two

513
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: experts in city planning and housing justice on solutions for

514
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: Airbnb to do better. Right after the break to figure

515
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 1: out where Airbnb might go from here, We've assembled a

516
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 1: small panel of experts and asked them to propose some

517
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: on creed ideas for Airbnb to move the needle in

518
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: the right direction. So first up, I want to welcome

519
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 1: Veronica Reid, who is the executive director at Jane Place

520
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: in New Orleans. Veronica, welcome to the show. Thank you

521
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: for having me tie. So I'd like to have you

522
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: start out by just telling our listeners a little bit

523
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: about your background and the work that you're doing at

524
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 1: Jane Place. Sure. Um, I'm the executive director of Jane Place.

525
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 1: I've been in my position for two years and prior

526
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: to my coming on board, UM, Jane Place and a

527
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: group of other advocates focused on short term rentals in

528
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: the city of New Orleans. It was part of a

529
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: broader strategy of work that we do as both a

530
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:52,720
Speaker 1: community land trust and an organization that works with tenants

531
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 1: focusing on tenant rights in the city of New Orleans.

532
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: That's great, And you said you used a word there

533
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: that listeners may not be familiar with a land trust.

534
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 1: Can you explain what a land trust is? Sure? Community

535
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 1: land trust is a nonprofit that owns land and uses

536
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 1: a least strategy to to reduce UM, the cost of

537
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 1: ownership UM, whether you are a renter or homeowner. Because

538
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 1: the cost of property is removed from the equation. I see,

539
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 1: so you're actually creating low cost housing yourself at James,

540
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: we're affordable housing developer. Yes, that's great. Okay. We are

541
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: also joined by former New York City councilman Ben Klos. Ben,

542
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: I want to welcome you to the show. Thank you

543
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: for having me. So, Ben, can you talk a little

544
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 1: bit about your background? Sure, I'm a software developer, I'm

545
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: an attorney, and most recently, I've been a New York

546
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: City council member, representing a hundred and sixty eight thousand

547
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 1: people on Manhattan's Upper east Side and a city of

548
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,919
Speaker 1: eight point eight million and h My claim to fame

549
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 1: is I wrote the law in New York City to

550
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: regulate Airbnb. And part of what made me run for

551
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 1: office and write this law is that the rent is

552
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 1: too damn high. Right, So let's get right into some

553
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 1: ideas for fixing that problem. Veronica, I'm gonna ask you

554
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: to go first, in two minutes or less, what is

555
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: the number one thing that you think Airbnb should do

556
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 1: to better live their purpose, which is to help everybody

557
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: feel like a local. I'd like to say two things.

558
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 1: The one thing that they could do is be a

559
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 1: better partner with the city, and what we need is

560
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 1: UM for Airbnb to have a field on all listings

561
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 1: that shows the permits UM, both the operator permits and

562
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 1: the permitting for the unit, because right now it's not

563
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 1: a requirement, so there's no way to tell whether it

564
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,800
Speaker 1: is illegal short term rental or not. And what we

565
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 1: believe is that there are a lot of listings on

566
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 1: Airbnb across the city of New Orleans that are not

567
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 1: licensed and therefore the city is losing potentially millions of

568
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: dollars in UM permitting fees annually. And we're just a

569
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: city that cannot afford um to lose those fees. Right,

570
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: So you're saying, change the platform to make it easier

571
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 1: for you to collect the taxes that are due uh

572
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: the city? Is that right? Correct? Modify the platform? Yeah? Okay,

573
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 1: that makes a ton of sense. Alright, Ben, You're next,

574
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 1: what is the number one thing that Airbnb should be

575
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: doing better to deliver on what they say they stand for.

576
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 1: The biggest bulshit of Airbnb is this whole focus on

577
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 1: their hosts. And if it was about the hosts, there

578
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: wouldn't be a button to click for whole house rentals.

579
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: If it was really about the if it was really

580
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 1: about connecting people and helping people to feel local and

581
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: having the the local host show people around. Then the

582
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: only thing on Airbnb would be hosted stays, and that's

583
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 1: actually where New York City may end up. M hm. Yeah,

584
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: So there is a distinction between hosts who actually are

585
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 1: living in the property that they've put on Airbnb and

586
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: hosts who are not living in the property that they

587
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:32,240
Speaker 1: put on Airbnb. And then there's another kind of gradation,

588
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 1: which is companies that are buying up properties and operating

589
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 1: in some cases hundreds of properties on the platform. Short

590
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: of banning those rentals, which you could absolutely do, is

591
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 1: there anything else that Airbnb could could do in New

592
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: York City. So we have a law going into effect.

593
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 1: We learned lessons from jurisdictions like Louisiana. So host will

594
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:58,359
Speaker 1: be required to have a registration number a platform where

595
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 1: be required to verify that that that registration number is

596
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 1: valid before they can process a listing. And what the

597
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 1: city will be doing is going into a regulatory process.

598
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 1: And we know that the state law here says that

599
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 1: you can have a hosted stay, you can have a

600
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: hosted stay for less than thirty days. Uh, you can

601
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 1: rent your apartment for longer than that and put it

602
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 1: into the market. And one of the questions that will

603
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 1: be determined as the city issues regulations is whether or

604
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: not single family homes are a building that a person

605
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 1: can rent out entirely or if those have to be

606
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: hosted to. So ultimately, we're actually asking Airbnb just to

607
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,839
Speaker 1: follow the state law. But I'll tell you I went

608
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 1: to visit London. It's a very expensive city, but there

609
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 1: are no options in London to rent an entire unit.

610
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 1: So they've done it in other jurisdictions where their laws

611
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 1: were stronger, and they can do it here, and they

612
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,439
Speaker 1: can do it in Louisiana. They can follow the law. Yeah,

613
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: thank you for that. Both, uh, really interesting takes on

614
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 1: things that Airbnb could change. Um, it's my turn. And

615
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: so as I thought about this, the first thing that

616
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,439
Speaker 1: occurred to me is that Airbnb has already gotten into

617
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: the real estate development business through I guess i'd call

618
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 1: it a side hustle called backyard. They're actually building housing

619
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: of various kinds that are air quotes, you know, airbnb friendly.

620
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 1: So they're in a great position to actually begin to

621
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,280
Speaker 1: directly solve the housing scarcity problem that they themselves are creating.

622
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna call my idea local love. So imagine,

623
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 1: with the local Love initiative, Airbnb would begin to finance

624
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: and build net new, low cost housing in the neighborhood's

625
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 1: hardest hit by gentrification. Local Love would be funded either

626
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: by essentially taxing part of the profits the platform is

627
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: making locally. Maybe it's by sharing the financial burden between

628
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 1: the platform and local hosts, especially hosts who have more

629
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: than one property on the platform. And since you know,

630
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,959
Speaker 1: presumably the local tax base is going up due to gentrification,

631
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: maybe we could get municipalities to also share part of

632
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: the burden. You you both will be the experts there um.

633
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: But my idea, local Love would create affordable housing to

634
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: preserve local communities, and wherever possible, create housing that is

635
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: in itself airbnb friendly, so that it also helps some

636
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 1: low income folks to begin to actually become Airbnb hosts

637
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 1: and supplement their own income. So what do you both

638
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:44,399
Speaker 1: think of that idea? Any love for local loves? It's

639
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: okay if you hate it, just tell me I don't

640
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: hate it. I think the issue is that you have

641
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 1: to have the available um properties for infill um at

642
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 1: at at a scale that makes a difference, right, because

643
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 1: when we talk about the need for housing developed here

644
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 1: in the city, we talk about the thirty three thousand

645
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 1: units would solve our affordable housing issue. But the thing

646
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 1: is is that we can't build thirty three thousand units

647
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: to solve that issue. We have to look at what's

648
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: already here to solve the problem. Veronica is right, it's

649
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 1: about where to build. I think that your idea could

650
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 1: work in some places where they don't have the money

651
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 1: to build the affordable housing. And UH Airbnb might be

652
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,439
Speaker 1: interested in having more hosts in the cat Skills, which,

653
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 1: at least during this pandemic, has become a destination for

654
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 1: families who need to get out of the city, and

655
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,959
Speaker 1: they might want as much money coming in from urban

656
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: areas as possible. So it could be a boon for

657
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: parts of this UH state, parts of this country that

658
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 1: have seen abandonment because the jobs just weren't there. No,

659
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 1: that's interesting. Yeah, So maybe it's maybe it's not in

660
00:43:57,640 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 1: New York and not in New Orleans, but it's maybe

661
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 1: maybe it's an idea that could work elsewhere. Veronica. I

662
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: want to build on your idea a little bit because

663
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 1: it seems to me that what lies at the center

664
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 1: of what you were advocating for is transparency. Um, just

665
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 1: another flavor of transparency that I wanted to put out

666
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 1: there and see what the two of you think of.

667
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 1: You know, right now the platform, there is a reputation

668
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 1: grade that you get on the platform, right, Hosts grade guests,

669
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 1: guest grade hosts, and there's a whole hierarchy that's created

670
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 1: there already on the platform. What if we created hosts

671
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: on another dimension, which is the impact that they are

672
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 1: having on the local economy. What if, you know, a

673
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 1: green listing is a host that lives in the property,

674
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 1: a yellow listing is a non resident host who owns,

675
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 1: you know, maybe one property at most a vacation home

676
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 1: or something that they have on the platform orm and

677
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 1: a red host would be anyone who owns more than

678
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,359
Speaker 1: one additional property, or maybe it's more than two or three.

679
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: I don't know where the line is. But what about

680
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 1: grading hosts just so that guests can see clearly the

681
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 1: impact that they're having on the local economy through the

682
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 1: choices that they're making, and they could still choose to

683
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 1: rent from, you know, in quotes professional host that is

684
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 1: causing gentrification if they want to, but they at least

685
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 1: have the choice to vote with their wallet and and

686
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 1: go with a green host who is actually benefiting or

687
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: not at least not harming the local economy. Well, the

688
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 1: skeptic in me says, the guest has to care UM,

689
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 1: and I don't know that Airbnb guests care at that level.

690
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:51,320
Speaker 1: But I do believe that neighbors would care about that information.

691
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 1: Neighbors who have problems with Airbnb on their block or

692
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 1: across the street would probably be very interested in that

693
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: type of information, Right, Ben, what do you think about that?

694
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:10,800
Speaker 1: I'm concerned that ultimately, if people are approaching it in

695
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: an economic sense, they are looking for an unhosted stay.

696
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 1: If you're a family, bunking everyone into a room with

697
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: two queen beds doesn't quite work. We haven't really seen

698
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: UH the hotel market really adapt to the way people

699
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 1: are now traveling today. But ultimately, I don't think that

700
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 1: a person looking for an unhosted stay is going to

701
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: care whether that metric of a green, yellow, red UH

702
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 1: is there. So I think if we're using metrics, it

703
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 1: needs to be something where UH the consumer is going

704
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 1: to care or there is an impact for having a

705
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 1: red flag. What if it was two ways and the

706
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 1: badging was both for guests and hosts. So if you

707
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: had a tendency to stay in a local friendly manner,

708
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 1: stay in you know, owner operated airbnbs, you know, you

709
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 1: would be a local friendly guest, or maybe you get

710
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: a local neutral badge, or you get a local unfriendly

711
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: badge because of the way that you use the platform.

712
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: And there are you know, commensurate I don't know, awards

713
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 1: for being local friendly. Do you think that would help me?

714
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,760
Speaker 1: I think we're talking about semantics. Here's because, for example,

715
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 1: here in New Orleans we have um A residential licenses

716
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 1: for short term rentals, and those are all supposed to

717
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 1: be owner occupied in residential neighborhoods, and so um, in

718
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 1: a sense what you described should be happening already. UM,

719
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: but we know that's not the case. Right. Let me

720
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 1: shift gears here a little bit, um and just pick

721
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 1: up on another thing that Airbnb says. They have said,

722
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 1: as a part of our commitment to our stakeholders, we

723
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: commit to communities as well as to host, to strengthen

724
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: the communities that we serve. What are some other ways

725
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 1: that Airbnb could actually strengthen a community rather than weaken it.

726
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 1: New Orleans, New York City, very crowded places in New

727
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: York City this morning, Uh, there were fourteen thousand, five

728
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: dred seventy eight children who woke up in a homeless

729
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 1: shelter because they just didn't have a home. And right

730
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,919
Speaker 1: now we have twenty thousand Airbnbs, whereas the entire unit

731
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:33,720
Speaker 1: for rent, and so um Veronica is talking about thirty

732
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 1: thousand units. Would solve the housing crisis in New Orleans.

733
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: If we got these twenty thousand units back and could

734
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:44,720
Speaker 1: even put it towards homeless services and giving affordable rental

735
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:49,720
Speaker 1: to these families, Uh, it would be a complete game changer.

736
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 1: And I think if they could have an honest conversation

737
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 1: with New Orleans and abide by their laws that they

738
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 1: had had an honest conversation with New York City, I

739
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 1: think we'd all be in a very different play us.

740
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 1: But they haven't been interested in that. They've been interested

741
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 1: in the profit motive, right. Yeah, And look, I completely

742
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: understand that both of you are kind of skeptical that

743
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 1: Airbnb is going to do anything on its own to

744
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,320
Speaker 1: solve this problem. But I do want us to suspend

745
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 1: our disbelief a little bit, and dream about if we

746
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 1: were in charge, if we were Brian Chessky for a day,

747
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 1: what are the ways in which we would change the

748
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 1: platform to begin to strengthen our local communities. If we're

749
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: going to change it fundamentally, if we if we have

750
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 1: the magic wand it really starts with really making it

751
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 1: about the hosts and saying, come stay in in Brooklyn

752
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: or the Bronx or in Queens and this is what

753
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 1: you're gonna have for breakfast. You're gonna stay with a

754
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 1: a Haitian family, or a Greek family or a Russian family,

755
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,760
Speaker 1: And what you're really signing up for is this host

756
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 1: who welcome you, to feed you, to be part of it.

757
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 1: But it also means a change in the compensation and

758
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 1: a change in what hosts are doing, and a change

759
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 1: in the listing where you're actually looking at the listing

760
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 1: and you're not looking at which is the least expensive,

761
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 1: which has the most bedrooms, but which has the best

762
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 1: host who's going to show me a great time while

763
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 1: I'm there. Yeah, that sounds right to me. I want

764
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: to circle back to the thesis of this show, which

765
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 1: is that there are certain companies in the world that

766
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 1: are we call them purpose led companies, and Airbnb is

767
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,320
Speaker 1: a company that we would characterize as being a purpose

768
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:38,800
Speaker 1: led business. They are trying to help people have you know,

769
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 1: um paraphrasing, but have local experiences. It says that on

770
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 1: the label, and so at some level a really good

771
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 1: purpose led company should, because they say it on the label,

772
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 1: should actually try to make that real. And so what

773
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 1: I'm saying is Airbnb really should be self regulating, right,

774
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 1: They really should be. They shouldn't be forcing the two

775
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 1: of you to take them on and to pass laws.

776
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 1: They should see the problem that they're creating, you know,

777
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 1: the degradation of the local feel of the neighborhoods that

778
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 1: in many cases they're doing business in is actually bad

779
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 1: for the neighborhoods. It's bad for the city. It's ultimately

780
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 1: it's bad for them because if New Orleans stops feeling

781
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:25,400
Speaker 1: like New Orleans, people are going to go there as

782
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 1: much and Airbnb will suffer. And they're now in a

783
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: place where they're creating harm. So what we want to

784
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:34,879
Speaker 1: explore here is what should they do to heal it? Right,

785
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 1: and collaboration with folks such as yourselves who are engaged

786
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 1: in your local communities. Seems like a good place to start.

787
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 1: And so at the end of the day, what would

788
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 1: be the economic impact to Airbnb if they just banned

789
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: those more professionalized or corporate hosts. If Airbnb said it

790
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 1: is illegal to put more than one property on the platform,

791
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:03,719
Speaker 1: I think that's where Airbnb is headed. In New York City.

792
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,880
Speaker 1: They would go from having thirty eight thousand units to

793
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 1: about eighteen thousand units. And that's still a huge number

794
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 1: of units, uh huge amounts of profit, but it would

795
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:19,840
Speaker 1: completely change things, and that would be enough units leftover

796
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: to house every homeless family in New York City. Let

797
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 1: me um add a sort of idea log to the

798
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 1: fire here. Airbnb has given rise, it seems like to

799
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 1: a new ecosystem of companies. So there are these new

800
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:40,280
Speaker 1: hotel slash short term rental companies, kind of urban development

801
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,879
Speaker 1: companies that are being created, like Saunder is one of them,

802
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 1: Arriva Nativo, Blue Ground, And it seems like these companies

803
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 1: are creating entire home style hotels in other words, kind

804
00:52:55,040 --> 00:53:00,439
Speaker 1: of a hotel cobbled together from individual homes. Are also

805
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 1: developing apartment buildings that are designed so that anyone can

806
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:08,240
Speaker 1: rent their apartment on Airbnb while they're away. Are these

807
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 1: companies part of a potential solution or they just a

808
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: bigger part of the problem. They aren't part of the

809
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:20,360
Speaker 1: problem in terms of displacement because our local residents would

810
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 1: not be living in those those units because they're not

811
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 1: affordable to local residents. But one of the things that

812
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,879
Speaker 1: could be a value is that there was a sort

813
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 1: of um affordable like for every commercial units there could

814
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 1: be some contribution to an affordable housing fund that could

815
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 1: help support the development of affordable housing in neighborhoods because

816
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 1: there are thousands of commercial short term rentals in the

817
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:55,800
Speaker 1: city of New Orleans, right. I mean, that's kind of

818
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 1: where I was trying to go with local love is

819
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 1: is actually funding the creation using current units to fund

820
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 1: the creation of affordable housing. Okay, is there anything that

821
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 1: I haven't asked either of you today that you wanted

822
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 1: to mention or talk about in regard to Airbnb. Well,

823
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:15,320
Speaker 1: I'd just like to say that we do believe that

824
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 1: the change in local regulations here has had a positive impact,

825
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:22,839
Speaker 1: and so UM since the change in the regulations, UM,

826
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:27,399
Speaker 1: we have definitely seen folks return to neighborhoods and that's

827
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:31,239
Speaker 1: important and we hope that um that will continue to

828
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:35,320
Speaker 1: be the case. Great, thank you, so last question for

829
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 1: both of you. On this show, we have a scale

830
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 1: called the b S Scale. It goes from zero to

831
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 1: one hundred, zero being the best score zero vs. One

832
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 1: hundred being the worst score on BS. So on a

833
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:56,279
Speaker 1: scale of zero to one, how big of a B

834
00:54:56,560 --> 00:55:00,720
Speaker 1: S or do you think Airbnb is? Ben I'll start

835
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 1: with you. That's a high score, all right, unequivocal, Thank you, Veronica.

836
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 1: What would you give them? Maybe I'll give them around

837
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 1: a ninety, maybe a ten, but that could be a

838
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,279
Speaker 1: margin Arab plus or minus right, so they might be

839
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:23,719
Speaker 1: as high as right. But those are high scores. That's

840
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 1: eye opening for me. It's funny because I entered this

841
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: this episode thinking that they were a lower BS company.

842
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 1: But the deeper I've gotten into it, the more I've

843
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:38,279
Speaker 1: started to think, actually, it really is about maximizing profitability

844
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 1: and it's not about delivering on the local nous. I'm

845
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 1: actually really coming around at that point of view. I

846
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 1: think the problem is bigger than I thought it was

847
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 1: at first. Okay, Veronica read, thank you so much for

848
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:53,320
Speaker 1: joining us, today. Thank you for having me and Ben Calobs,

849
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:55,399
Speaker 1: thank you for being here. This was great. I really

850
00:55:55,440 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 1: appreciate your time. Thanks for having me. I'd like to

851
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 1: end the show today by giving Airbnb an official BS score.

852
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 1: The scale goes from zero to a hundred. A zero

853
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:12,360
Speaker 1: means there's zero gap between word indeed, and a hundred

854
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 1: means the gap is huge total BS. I came into

855
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 1: the episode today thinking that Airbnb had a few problems,

856
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 1: but I also had the strong sense that their leadership

857
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:27,400
Speaker 1: was committed to their purpose and to being a positive

858
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 1: member of the communities that they serve. I was thinking

859
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 1: about giving them a score, you know, in the low thirties.

860
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:39,799
Speaker 1: But now, like me, you've heard our guests today all

861
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 1: give Airbnb really high scores, and I have to say

862
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 1: I found a lot of what they said today. I

863
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:51,680
Speaker 1: opening Airbnb is in a more serious situation than I

864
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:56,200
Speaker 1: initially thought. I think they've reached a crossroads and they

865
00:56:56,280 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 1: need to look inside themselves and make some decisions. If

866
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:03,719
Speaker 1: they change course now, admit that there's a problem and

867
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 1: commit to partnering with cities to solve it, they can

868
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 1: avoid a crisis. But if they continue on the path

869
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:13,359
Speaker 1: they're on they'll become more like some of our other

870
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 1: ultra high scorers pretenders who get dragged through the court

871
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:23,440
Speaker 1: of public opinion and then ultimately get regulated. So I'm

872
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:29,560
Speaker 1: going to give Airbnb a cautionary and to think that

873
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 1: it's all Barry Manilow's drummer's fault. I didn't see that coming.

874
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:39,240
Speaker 1: To weigh in with your own score for Airbnb, visit

875
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 1: our website Calling Bullshit Podcast dot com. We'll track their

876
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:46,240
Speaker 1: behavior over time to see if they can bring that

877
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 1: score down. You'll also be able to see where Airbnb

878
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:54,800
Speaker 1: ranks on BS compared to the other companies and organizations

879
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 1: we feature on the show. And if you're starting a

880
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 1: purpose led business or you're thinking of beginning the journey

881
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 1: of transformation to become one, here are three things you

882
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 1: can take away from this episode. One, design matters, and

883
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 1: the founders of Airbnb went to one of the most

884
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 1: prestigious design schools in the world, so they know it.

885
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 1: As all of our guests pointed out today, there are

886
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 1: functional aspects of the Airbnb platform that currently favor shareholders

887
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 1: over stakeholders like cities and communities. When you design your product,

888
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 1: design it with all of your stakeholders in mind two

889
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:45,960
Speaker 1: actions speak. Airbnb explicitly names communities and cities as stakeholders.

890
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:50,560
Speaker 1: They need to walk that talk. Today we talked about

891
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 1: taking actions like banning professional hosts and reallocating housing to

892
00:58:56,240 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 1: those in need. Your actions would undoubtedly be frint, but

893
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 1: the point is doing is believing. And three, a principle

894
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 1: isn't a principle until it costs you money. Is Airbnb

895
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:18,360
Speaker 1: pro community or not? Sure? Banning corporations from owning multiple

896
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 1: properties on the platform would cost Airbnb some money in

897
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:25,000
Speaker 1: the short term, but if that action saves the neighborhoods

898
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 1: and communities that Airbnb is a part of, shareholders will

899
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 1: benefit longer term. Making money is a good thing. Just

900
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 1: be long term greedy. Thank you for joining us today,

901
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 1: Murray Cox, Veronica Read and Ben Calos. You can find

902
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 1: links to inside Airbnb, Jane Place, and Everybody's social media

903
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:55,840
Speaker 1: handles on our website Calling Bullshit Podcast dot com. And

904
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:59,040
Speaker 1: if you have ideas for companies or organizations we should

905
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:02,360
Speaker 1: consider for future episodes, you can submit them on our

906
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:07,720
Speaker 1: website Calling Bullshit Podcast dot com. And special thanks to

907
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:11,360
Speaker 1: David A. Proserpio and also to air d n A

908
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:17,680
Speaker 1: for providing invaluable insights for today's episode, and Brian Chesky,

909
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,120
Speaker 1: there is still a tremendous amount of goodwill toward you

910
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 1: and Airbnb out there right now. We're rooting for you

911
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 1: to do the right thing, and if you ever want

912
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:30,840
Speaker 1: to come on the show to talk about it, you

913
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:34,280
Speaker 1: have an open invitation and if we made you feel

914
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:38,200
Speaker 1: at home today, Subscribe to the Calling Bullshit podcast on

915
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

916
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 1: get your podcasts, and thanks to our production team Hannah Beal,

917
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:55,480
Speaker 1: Amanda Ginsburg, Andy Kim d s Moss, Hailey Pascalites, Parker Silzer,

918
01:00:56,280 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 1: Basil Soaper and me Jehan Zulu. Calling Bullshit was created

919
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:05,480
Speaker 1: by co Collective and is hosted by Me Time onto you.

920
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:16,560
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Before you go, we'd love to hear

921
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 1: what you think about the show. Maybe you were inspired

922
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:22,959
Speaker 1: to take action, maybe you disagree with today's bullshit rating.

923
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 1: Either way, we want to hear about it. Leave us

924
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 1: a message at two one two five oh five two

925
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 1: three zero five, or send a voice memo to CBS

926
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 1: podcast at co collective dot com. You might even be

927
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 1: featured on an upcoming episode.