1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heart three D 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: Audience for full exposure, listen with headphones. Lynn McNeil is 3 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: an associate professor of folklore in the English Department at 4 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: Utah State University. She serves as the chair of the 5 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: Folklore Program. She is also a regular cast member on 6 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: the Travel Channel's Paranormal Caught on Camera. We had a 7 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: wide ranging conversation about contemporary folklore, the paranormal, and much more. 8 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: I'm Lynn McNeil. I am a folkloreist at Utah State University. 9 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: I run the folklore program there. I teach folklore there. 10 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:49,959 Speaker 1: I work in the folklore archives that we have there, 11 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: which are really incredible. We are a great hub of 12 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: folklore studies. We have for a offer a master's program 13 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: and folklore and undergraduate minor. It's a good place to 14 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: be a folkloreist. I also am very lucky and that 15 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: I get to be a folklorist um in the media 16 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: fairly often, so I get to be a folklorist on 17 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: podcasts like this, on the radio, on television, and mainly 18 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: what I like doing is bringing the concepts of folklore 19 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: studies to a really broad audience because people don't always 20 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: think in terms of what folklore is doing in a culture. 21 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:30,199 Speaker 1: We hear the word folklore, we tend to think untrue stories, 22 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: old stories, maybe rural, rustic, peasantee stories. We might have 23 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: sort of a brother's grim model in our minds of folklore. 24 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: And the reality is is that folklore is are really 25 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: contemporary form of cultural expression. Yes, it comes from the past, 26 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: but the whole point of it being folklore is that 27 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: it keeps itself relevant by adapting and changing dynamically so 28 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: that when it was relevant in the past, it can 29 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: adjust to be relevant now. So, yeah, folklore dies out, 30 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: folklore disappears. For a long time people thought of folklore 31 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: as the survivals of a past age. And what we 32 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: now know is that it's not so much that it's 33 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: dying out, it's that it's changing its face in order 34 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: to keep up. So the term actually that folklore has 35 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: use for this, which I love, is eco typification. It's 36 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: borrowed from botany, basically the study of plants and the 37 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 1: way that they emerge differently even though it's the same 38 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: species in two different climate and geological and geographical environments, 39 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: because it's being responsive to its context. And so folklore 40 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: is seen as operating in that same way, you can 41 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: have the same story, the same legend, the same fairy tales, 42 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: show up in two different places, and it's going to 43 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: be morphologically distinct because of the context of those two 44 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: different places. It's going to be meeting the needs of 45 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: a different time, maybe a different culture, and if region, 46 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: a different language, family, all those sorts of things. So 47 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 1: it's it's not that folklore is old. It's that folklore 48 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: is continuously adapting. That's what makes it relevant, and that's 49 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: not how people think of folklore. So that's what I 50 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: like to talk about with people, is that it's it's 51 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 1: this way more sort of psychological, communicative, symbolic form of interaction, 52 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: more than just the old stories model that we often 53 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: have exactly I mean, which you know is And it's 54 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: interesting too to think about the awareness people had of 55 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: stories like that. If we look at the Brothers Grimm's 56 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: um early draft of their eighteen twelve volume of Stories, 57 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: that story Hunsel and Gretel, the woman who's mean in 58 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: the story and pushes the kids out of the house 59 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: and sends them out into the woods to get rid 60 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: of them is originally their mother, and the grim brothers 61 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: themselves were like, oh, you know, we're collecting these stories 62 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: to be a reflection on you know, German culture and spirit. 63 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: That doesn't make us look right, Let's make it a 64 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: step mom. And it's sort of like, hey, Alex, guys, 65 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: but we we read into that so much and we 66 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: now are left with this incredible trope of the wicked stepmother, 67 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: and it's like, yeah, that was a real conscious decision 68 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 1: made we assume so that German moms didn't look bad 69 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,799 Speaker 1: by the editors of these stories, who, in their call 70 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: for collecting folklore, were like, hey, scholars of the world, 71 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: don't change anything about the stories you collect, because the 72 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: way they emerge from the mouths of the people is 73 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: the way that they are meant to represent culture. And 74 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 1: then here they are editing them the leaders. You know. 75 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: Oh wow, that's funny. I'm just thinking about trends in 76 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: folklore since like past World War two, you know, because 77 00:04:55,480 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: I'm kind of looking starting in moving forward. I guess 78 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 1: what are the major trends are are there? Yeah, It's 79 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 1: it's hard to say because folklore is so big and 80 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: so encompassing that there's so many different genres of folklore. 81 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: I mean, we have the narrative genres of folklore like stories. 82 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 1: We also have the customary genres of folklore like holiday 83 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: practices and gestures and ritual and and greetings and leave 84 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: takings and all that sort of stuff. And we have 85 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: belief based folklore, which might be entirely conceptual or steeped 86 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: in folk religion, or come out of superstition or the 87 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: supernatural or something like that. All of these things are 88 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: so big on one scale and then manifest so individually 89 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: within families, within communities, within cultural groups, that it can 90 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: be hard to point to big trends other than the 91 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: fact that folklore on the whole, especially the most up 92 00:05:56,160 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 1: to the minute contemporary genres, which interestingly are usually urban 93 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: legends and jokes. Those are two forms of folklore. Um 94 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: so stories that we tell as true and you know, 95 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: humorous anecdotes that we make as commentary on things. Um 96 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: those forms of folklore are really really representative of the 97 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 1: time that they come from, and so there's some of 98 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: the most adaptable. We actually have studies of urban legends 99 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: that go back to ancient Rome, where we can see 100 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: the same legend type being told in like the first 101 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 1: century a d that is still being told now but 102 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: just about things relevant to us now rather than things 103 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 1: that were relevant to us then, and knowing that folklore 104 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 1: does equal work reflecting a culture and shaping that culture, 105 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: we see a lot of the same themes that we're 106 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: cropping up in, you know, post war, not just America 107 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: or the West, but the world. Um an increase of 108 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: visual media was a huge thing that was happening there. 109 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: Obviously DEO stayed big, but television was booming. So we 110 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: start to see people think in terms of images more 111 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: than words, and that of course has only grown thanks 112 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,239 Speaker 1: to the Internet and our ability to now combine images 113 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: and words in all sorts of new ways. But we 114 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: see folklore reflect that. We suddenly start getting genres of 115 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: folklore that scholars referred to as xerox lore and facts lore, 116 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: and we get things like visual legends, so instead of 117 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: telling a story, we just get an image of something. 118 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: And you can see how something like UFOs, something that's 119 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: relying on visual input or photography or you know, mapping 120 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: and things like that. The ability to share that information, 121 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: the ability to pass around that evidence just gets that 122 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: much stronger. And we're also entering this period of time 123 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: where you know, where politics are booming, and there's bipartisan 124 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: support for anti communist efforts and the Cold War and 125 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: all of this, and we see that as well. We 126 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: see people develop this new relationship with the military with 127 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: their governments where, you know, we don't have an ongoing 128 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: international conflict to worry about, so we worry about what 129 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: we can't see. You know. The Cold War is it's 130 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: called cold for a reason, right, It's this freezing out 131 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: of each other. It's not hot, it's not engaged, it's 132 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: not blood boiling anger. It's silence. It's secrecy. And we 133 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: start to wonder, well, what are the secrets? What is 134 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: it that we don't know? And this fixation on things 135 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: like conspiracy and um the information that's out there that 136 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: we might be getting glimpses of an unsatisfactory explanations for 137 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:41,359 Speaker 1: any time there's a vacuum of knowledge, things like legends, 138 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: things like superstition just rush in to fill that void. 139 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: We want to understand. There's actually a really cool, old 140 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: old study that was done by some psychologists looking at 141 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: rumor and how rumor works and folk cours know that 142 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: rumor and legend are really similar, and they came up 143 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: with what they uh called the rumor equation. And no, 144 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: this is not deeply scientific, but it's pretty revealing when 145 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: we think about it. What they said was that the 146 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: reach of any rumor, the power of a rumor, the 147 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 1: spread of it, is equal to the topics importance multiplied 148 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: by its ambiguity. So if we have a topic to 149 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: us that's incredibly important, but we have all the info, 150 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: but we're gonna talk about it. There's gonna be new 151 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: stories about it, but we're kind of gonna rest easy. 152 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: We're gonna be like, Okay, really important, Thank goodness, we 153 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: know everything. If we have a topic that's incredibly ambiguous 154 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: but we don't really care, then we're sort of like whatever, 155 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: I don't need to know, it doesn't matter to me. 156 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: The minute you start that multiplying, exponential growth of something 157 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,839 Speaker 1: that is both unbelievably important. So of course we can 158 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: use this as a barometer for our culture. Right what 159 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: has always been important to us? Our military security, the 160 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: lives and safety of our children, our personal health and 161 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: die violence, anti crime, things like that, plus or multiplied 162 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: by this question of ambiguity. I don't have the answers. 163 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: I don't know the answers. It's possible someone is trying 164 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: to keep the answers from me. You put those things 165 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: together and you are just asking for a wildfire spread 166 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: of rumor of legend of conspiracy theory. So what would 167 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: be an example of that sort of apex? You know, 168 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: I think um one of the most recent examples that 169 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: we have a lot of good data on a lot 170 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: of good folklore data would be nine eleven. It's sort 171 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: of a peak example where if we think about the 172 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: rumors and the legends that spread immediately in the wake 173 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: of September eleventh, two thousand and one, we saw people 174 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: hinting at the idea that there were people in this 175 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: country who knew this was going to happen. So one 176 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,839 Speaker 1: of the most popular legend cycle is that we saw 177 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: was that someone, usually a white American, would do some 178 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:10,439 Speaker 1: sort of kindness for someone of Middle Eastern descent, would 179 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: be just a maybe a titch above normal levels of 180 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: thoughtful or tipping someone a little bit extra, helping someone 181 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: out in a way they didn't need to. And then 182 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: that person says to them, hey, you keep yourself and 183 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: your family away from the World Trade Center on September eleven, 184 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: and that person is like, whatever, WEIRDO, Okay, thanks, you know, 185 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: and then they go on and then after the event 186 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: they realized what had happened. Um, and that legend type 187 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: among folklorists is known as the grateful terrorist. It's horribly 188 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: xenophobic and racist, obviously, but it it does that thing 189 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: folklore does where it just encapsulates people's anxieties, people's fears, 190 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: the tenor of the moment, where what we see is 191 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 1: this suspen Asian and and these are I mean, it 192 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: sounds now, however many years we are out from September eleven, 193 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: twenty years almost um, it seems ridiculous. It seems like, 194 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: oh wow, that's an awful story to have told, Like 195 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: it almost seems like a bad joke. But at the 196 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: time when this thing of unbelievable importance and also just 197 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 1: unspeakable ambiguity, nobody had any idea what was going on. 198 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: I remember that morning, the general thinking was that it 199 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: was an accident, right, there's no way this happened on purpose, 200 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 1: until there was a second airplane involved, and suddenly that 201 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: vacuum opened up and all of these stories just got 202 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:44,599 Speaker 1: sucked into this explanation and you could see that multiplication 203 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: of importance our personal safety and national safety and ambiguity. 204 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: Who the heck is doing this to us? What is happening? 205 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: How can we make sure it doesn't happen again? Who 206 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,079 Speaker 1: can I trust? Who can't I trust? Leads to just this, 207 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 1: like you know, conflagration of rumor and legend, where any 208 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: story that seems to give me a spec of control, 209 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: who I know to trust, who I know not to trust, 210 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: is going to latch on because we want to start 211 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 1: a signing blame. We want to start constructing a future 212 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: where we're in control of this not happening again, or 213 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: if it's going to happen again, I'm not going to 214 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: be there. Um. So yeah, so we get these stories 215 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: that I mean and think we we can think about 216 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: so many more stories of people claiming to have witnessed 217 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:37,199 Speaker 1: um people of certain ethnic backgrounds celebrating in the September eleven. Yeah, 218 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: and there were a lot of That was another one 219 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: where the legends were very visual. There were photographs that circulated. 220 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 1: Every one of those photographs was traced to an event 221 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: that had nothing to do with that date or that moment. 222 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: None of them were true, but they seemed to provide sense, 223 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: not good sense, not sense we liked very racist and 224 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: xenophobic sense. But it seemed to make sense out of 225 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: the the comprehensible, and that drive to make sense of 226 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: things is really what what pushes a lot of rumor 227 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: and legend in arenas like this. You know, one of 228 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: the things I'm kind of interested in is why do 229 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: you does UFO folklore seem to have this staying power? Yeah, 230 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: this is an awesome question, and the answer exists on 231 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: several levels, because there's staying power and then there's staying power. 232 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: If we want to look at the legend type of 233 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: the UFO visitor, where we have odd, often vaguely humanoid, 234 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: sometimes a little extra tall, slender creatures descending from the 235 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: sky or perhaps emerging from another dimension to interact with humans, 236 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: often to kidnap them, often to interfere with their bodies 237 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: in some way. We've just described centuries of fairy lore, 238 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: you know, other creatures, slender, humanoid, mysterious, powerful emerging from 239 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: the mists, taking us away. Being kidnapped by the fairies 240 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: and taken by the fairies is a longstanding tradition. Um 241 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: So if we want to call that UFO lore, we 242 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: could very very easily. But taking a shorter view of it, 243 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: where UFO really takes on these sort of technological pseudo 244 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: scientific ideas of space and space travel and extraterrestrial life. 245 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: The question of the staying power of that, I think 246 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: is really multifaceted just on its own, because we know 247 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: that belief doesn't stick around for no reason, and we 248 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: know that one straightforward, if hard to accept answer is 249 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: perhaps people keep talking about UFOs because people keep seeing them, 250 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: because they're there, they're real, people are having encounters. That 251 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: is a possibility that it does us no service to 252 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: discount when we wonder, wow, why do people keep talking 253 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: about this? It's like, wow, why do people keep talking 254 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: about Bigfoot? Maybe because they keep seeing him? You know, 255 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: that's one answer that we don't need to erase. But 256 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: let's say that we cannot confirm the existence of UFOs. 257 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: We don't have one that most of us know of, right, 258 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: We don't have one to look at to take apart 259 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: to dismantle, to analyze with what tools are available to us? 260 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: Why do we keep telling the story? Clearly there's some 261 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: other beneficial not meaning always positive, but meaning it serves 262 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: us in our psychological and you know, social needs. Some 263 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: beneficial outcome of believing in this possibility. I'm going to 264 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: make a quick detour just because I think it's important 265 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: to point out that legends, as a genre of folk 266 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: narrative are a legend about possibility. For a long time, 267 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: legends were defined by folklorists as stories told as true, 268 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: whereas fairy tales are stories told as fiction and myths 269 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: our stories told sort of as sacred revelation. Right, Legends 270 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 1: are the ones that we're told as literally true. We've 271 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: nuanced this since then to talk about the idea that 272 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: what legends do is they allow us to symbolically discuss possibility, 273 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: and the possibilities of reality are a thing that human 274 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 1: beings love to discuss. We really want to chew over 275 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 1: the potential boundaries of reality. Could this be? Could this 276 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:36,919 Speaker 1: not be? Could this happen? Is this real? And UFOs 277 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 1: are something that clearly there's both ambiguity and importance in this. 278 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 1: It matters to us to not be alone in the universe, 279 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 1: and we aren't sure if it's going to be a 280 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: good thing or a bad thing when we get that answer. 281 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: So we see that combination of social and cultural import there, 282 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: and then we also see something that simply starts to 283 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: make more more sense I mean, it is an accepted 284 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: scientific principle that there's probably a planet out there in 285 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 1: our infinite universe that can sustain life as ours can. 286 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: It does not make sense that we would be unique. Um. 287 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: Then we start adding in not just the narratives, not 288 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 1: just the stories, but this digital additional media that comes 289 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: to us from this particular time in our culture, where 290 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: there's more everyday people out there with cameras, there's more 291 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: visual media than just textual. We're able to capture things 292 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: and share them with each other in unprecedented ways, and 293 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 1: that changes how we talk about this stuff. It's one 294 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: thing to trust your neighbor when he's like, I saw 295 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 1: some weird lights over my farm and then I lost 296 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: three hours of my day. I don't know what happened, 297 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: but I woke up in a ditch and I had 298 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 1: all these bruises. You know, you tell me what that means. 299 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: It's another thing when your neighbor tells you that same 300 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: story and then shows you a photo that he took, 301 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, yeah, I can't explain what those 302 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: lights are. They don't look like an airplane, they don't 303 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 1: look like anything I'm familiar with. You know, we just 304 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: start to start to get that that word of mouth 305 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 1: culture is now being bolstered by additional things, which of 306 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,199 Speaker 1: course sort of conveniently takes us to even that next 307 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: level of authenticity or validation, which is, hey, this isn't 308 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: just your neighbor now, it's the government. Now, it's an 309 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 1: institutional element of our culture who we know isn't joking around, 310 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: and they're taking it seriously, and they're producing documents and 311 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 1: they're gathering photos, and you start to go okay, wait, hey, 312 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: wait a minute, Like like the authority that institutions lend 313 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: to the already powerful word of mouth consensus of folklore 314 00:19:49,240 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: is really something that you can't underestimate. I brought up 315 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: Joe Nichols Roswell syndrome framework for the dynamic. The UFO 316 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: stories sometimes go through the thing that happens sort of 317 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 1: again and again in uphology is that like a case 318 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 1: will occur and it will pretty quickly be explained, and 319 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 1: then it will go dark, and then it will come 320 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,439 Speaker 1: back a little while later, sort of armored. So in 321 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: the retelling, like these objections are sort of like pre 322 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: you know, you have a pre planned explanation for it, 323 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: and now everything can kind of make sense. Yes, absolutely, 324 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: and that that is part of that dynamism that we 325 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 1: see all folks are happening. Right. If someone had written 326 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 1: a book about this and published it, and it were 327 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: a copyrighted piece of work, it's it already exists. It 328 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: is what it is. You know, the novel, that book, 329 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:05,959 Speaker 1: that newspaper article. Doesn't get to be updated. It's still exist. 330 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: You can print a new version with new information maybe 331 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,640 Speaker 1: or something, but it's not dynamic in the way folk 332 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: culture is dynamic. And one of the things that folk 333 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: culture often does, especially in the genre of legend and belief, 334 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: is that there is a developing performance of rationality. People 335 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: know that being seen as a believer can automatically cast 336 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: doubt on people's stories. You know, we we talk about 337 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: belief in the supernatural or the paranormal as sort of 338 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,880 Speaker 1: this black or white proposition. Do you believe in ghosts? Yes? 339 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 1: Or no? The average everyday person knows the correct answer 340 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: is no, because that makes you a rational, scientifically minded person. 341 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 1: For most people, though the real answer isn't necessarily yes. 342 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 1: The real answer is something along the lines of a story. 343 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: The real answer to do you believe in ghosts as well? No? 344 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: Of course not. I mean who would. But after my 345 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: grandpa died, there was like this one Christmas light and 346 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: it was totally the one that he was always into, 347 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: and it just started blinking like the day after he died, 348 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,880 Speaker 1: and it never stopped blinking, and we all just sort 349 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: of knew, like that was Grandpa, you know, letting us 350 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: know that he was still there with us for the holidays. 351 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:20,880 Speaker 1: So no, I don't believe in ghosts, but I mean, 352 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: my Grandpa's in that Christmas light, like that very paradoxical, 353 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 1: very contradictory answer, And that's never on the survey, you know, 354 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: when we send out the survey of do you believe 355 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: in ghosts? That's not an option, so everyone checks no. 356 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 1: But the truth is that when someone wants to speak 357 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: about a supernatural experience they've had, they grow I like 358 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: the word armor over their story in anticipation of people 359 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: who are going to say, okay, weirdo. You know I 360 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 1: you clearly are an irrational thinker. So we see this 361 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: performance of rationality, this intentional reality testing that takes place 362 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 1: that hums a part of the story to say, now 363 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: I thought it could be this, but then I realized 364 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: it couldn't. Because of this, And I also thought that 365 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: maybe it could be this, but that doesn't make any 366 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: sense because of X, Y, and Z. And what that 367 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 1: tells us is that people are actually being surprisingly rational 368 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: when they talk about the paranormal or the supernatural, and 369 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: that's not something we want to grant people always. When 370 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: people are talking about things that we, in particular don't 371 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: believe in, it's very easy to be dismissive and assume 372 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 1: that they've jumped to supernatural conclusions. Oh, this person wants 373 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: it to be a UFO. Oh, this person wants it 374 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: to be bigfoot. And the truth is is that most 375 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: people are going through this process of elimination and starting 376 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: with well could it have been the lighthouse, No, the 377 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: lighthouse is over there, it's over here, Or you know, well, 378 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: could it have been a bear? No, I've seen bears, 379 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: I've hunted bears, I know what bears look like. That 380 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: wasn't a bear, And then they end up at this 381 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,680 Speaker 1: supernatural or paranormal conclusion that, for all that it might 382 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: not be scientifically testable the way that we think of 383 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 1: the scientific process, it's a rational thought process that they've 384 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,239 Speaker 1: gone through. And this is something that any folklorist who 385 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: has done ethnographic work with people on the subjects of 386 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: belief in the supernatural sees right away is oftentimes these 387 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: are incredibly thoughtful, observant people who themselves don't want to 388 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: have to have drawn that conclusion, and yet there's no 389 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: other conclusion for them to draw. Sometimes the first episode 390 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: of Strange Arrivals, like the first like three minutes or 391 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: five minutes or whatever, is to be telling the story 392 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 1: about how, you know, my best friend and his wife 393 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: and me and my wife, we're having dinner out on 394 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 1: a porch on this on this island, and we saw 395 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: these lights, these red lights up is ways away. They 396 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: were just there and they're moving a little bit. We 397 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: went down the dock watching them, you know. We watched 398 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: them probably for twenty minutes, and then they kind of disappeared. 399 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 1: And for the first season of Strange Arrivals, what I 400 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: was kind of interested in was how our our memories 401 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 1: of it kind of differed and how something that happened 402 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: like five years ago, we can like get into like 403 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,120 Speaker 1: knock knockdown, drag out arguments about how certain things happened, 404 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 1: you know, But it also seems to me that you know, 405 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,199 Speaker 1: the way you interpret that which is something that like 406 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: my friend and I, you know, don't know what it was, 407 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: but we're like, also, don't think it was aliens um, 408 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: whereas our wives are like, uh yeah, if that's like, 409 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: what else would it be? So what part would sort 410 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: of preconceived notions play in that process that you just 411 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 1: talked about what you've hit on is one of the 412 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: reasons that legends are this genre of debate, this genre 413 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 1: of possibility, because you don't have to agree, you don't 414 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 1: have to believe. Someone can tell a legend that they 415 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: don't think is true to someone who thinks it might be, 416 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: and that legend becomes this this central point around which 417 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: a discussion of possibility can happen. Right folklorists in the 418 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: past have looked at because folklore is under the purview 419 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: of everyday people. It's not something that only those with 420 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: access to publishing houses or you know, executive producers are 421 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 1: able to make. We all get to share folklore. It's 422 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: all equally genuine when we do. There's no single right version. 423 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 1: My story about a UFO is just as legitimate as 424 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: your story of a UFO because we're all in charge 425 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 1: of it. There's these different dynamics that go into shaping it. 426 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: So at the very far back end there's our shared worldview. 427 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: You know, any any story that is collectively circulating in 428 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: the United States is going to have its background some 429 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,439 Speaker 1: awareness of the basic large scale cultural structures of the 430 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 1: United States that will be reflected in that folklore. And 431 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 1: you can see that when you look at the folklore 432 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: from a different culture, it seems exotic and strange and different. 433 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: It's common and familiar to those folks with their cultural norms. 434 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: So we can see those big scale norms reflected in folklore. 435 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: But because everyday people are in charge of the dissemination 436 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: and sharing in the shape of folklore, we also get 437 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: much more small scale, individualized things. So we get me, 438 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 1: my personality and my motivations and my intent, and you 439 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: and yours. So when I tell a story, I'm gonna 440 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,639 Speaker 1: tell it differently than someone else's. What I think is 441 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: significant or key or important is going to say one 442 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 1: a lot about my culture because it's that larger cultural 443 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,479 Speaker 1: milieu that the story is coming from in the first place. 444 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 1: But my telling of it's gonna say a lot about 445 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: me too. Am I going to play up the potential 446 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: alien elements here? Am I going to tell those down. 447 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: It's also gonna be affected by who I'm talking to. 448 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,239 Speaker 1: Am I talking to someone who's standing there with their 449 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 1: arms crossed, you know, giving me a real skeptical face, 450 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: Or am I talking to someone who is like wrapped 451 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: and listening and being like yeah, yeah, no, no, I've 452 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 1: seen that too. I've seen that too. Whole different story 453 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: emerges discursively between those two different people, right, And so 454 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,920 Speaker 1: all of these elements. As a folklorist, we're looking at 455 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 1: these small scale, performative, emergent elements as well as those 456 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: larger structural worldview things that that come from a culture, 457 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: which means that any two iterations of the same story 458 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: could be wildly divergent, you know, very symbolically different in 459 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: what they're communicating, while still technically being recognized recognizable as 460 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: the same story. So another thing I don't I don't 461 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: really even know how to ask a question, but maybe 462 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: just to get your reactions. So one of the things things. 463 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: A couple of days ago, I ended up talking to 464 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: this guy named Richard Doty who was in Air Force Intelligence, 465 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: and his thing was too to basically muddy the waters 466 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: in the UFO community by giving them misinformation and basically saying, look, uh, 467 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: he kind of had this deal where it's like I 468 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: want to I want to find out what's going on 469 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: in the UFO world, and I will let you in 470 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: on secret. Said only I know about, you know, as 471 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: being an Air Force uh insider. And this is during 472 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: the Cold War, and they're they're worried. Was that enough 473 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: UFO people were actually seeing you know, special projects and stuff, 474 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: and that they didn't want the Russians to be in 475 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: the UFO community and be finding out stuff that might 476 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: somehow help them. Um. So his thing was, I'm you know, 477 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 1: I muddy the waters. So I was trying to get 478 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: him to reflect a little bit about and I must 479 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: say unsuccessfully, but I was trying to get him to 480 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: reflect about how what he was doing was. It was 481 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: it was sort of taking in like an already established 482 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: narrative or set of ideas that would be consistent with 483 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: those things, but but sort of have his own you know, 484 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: he's doing it for his own purpose and uh, and 485 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: he was just he was not willing to engage really 486 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: on that beyond like I had a mission. You know, 487 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: this is my mission. It wasn't hard to do. Like 488 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: when you get people who believe it like that. You 489 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: basically if you just kind of nod um, you know, 490 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: and encourage them, they'll they'll like they'll do all the 491 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: work themselves. But that was a little disingenuous because he 492 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: was he did spread a lot of like super super 493 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: weird stuff, so like an intentional culture jammer of the 494 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: there's some of the stuff that you still see today 495 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: is stuff that he spread, like back in the early eighties, 496 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: like he was passing to people and then you know 497 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: they're still around today. When people talk about, you know, 498 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: the secret government programs, Wow, it makes me think of 499 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: the fake news that you know, we've been dealing with 500 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: since sort of the it's like it's like an intentionally 501 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: weaponized version of legends. You know, someone who's trying sitting 502 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: behind a desk trying to come up with what's going 503 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: to stick. Because the difficult thing is this folklore moves 504 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: almost on an evolutionary or a mimetic in the sense 505 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: of Richard Dawkins memetics um model, which is survival of 506 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: the fittest. You know, all this dynamism that folklore has 507 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: that it everyone gets to tell their own version and 508 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: shape it their own way. Also means that the elements 509 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: that that last are the ones that work for the 510 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: most people. So we see this communal shaping, this communal 511 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: evolution of folklore, and as it moves through a population, 512 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: it grows more and more generally applicable, so that I'll 513 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: still tell it in my unique way, but if I 514 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: add or play up an element that really resonates with 515 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: a lot of people, it's going to become a part 516 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: of it. And if I try and add an element 517 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: that doesn't really resonate and it's just sort of it's 518 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: going to drop out. I mean, by this principle, folklore 519 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: is self correcting in how it is crowdsourced like Wikipedia, 520 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: something that doesn't fit's gonna fall by the wayside. Something 521 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: that really speaks to people's anxieties or curiosities, it's gonna stay. 522 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: That is incredibly hard to fake, and it's incredibly hard 523 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: to do it in one go. The best example we 524 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: have contemporarily of this, interestingly is slender Man, who was wholesale, 525 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: almost perfect as an have been legend from the minute 526 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: of his creation. There is absolutely crowdsourcing and where we 527 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: ended up with Slenderman, and he absolutely has already evolved 528 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: almost to an unrecognizable character from what he started off 529 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: as initially as that whole communal process of dynamic folklore 530 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: shaping has happened to him. But with something like this, 531 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: with like a disinformation campaign, with fake news, or with 532 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: someone who is attempting to muddy the waters, it's gonna 533 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: be a uh, you know, shotgun blast of attempts, and 534 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: of them are going to fail. People don't believe things 535 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: for no reason. It needs to click, it needs to resonate, 536 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: It needs to work for them. What percentage of the 537 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 1: you know, mud that got spread around they're stuck. I 538 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: don't know, But it's only gonna stick around if it 539 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 1: seems to work, in which case, yeah, it might confuse things. 540 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: But if anything, it's working, and it's just going to 541 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: continue to promote that stuff more than necessarily poke holes 542 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: in it or deflated interesting. I should have, you know, 543 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 1: having this conversation, I'm realizing that the first season of 544 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals, I probably should have talked to to you 545 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: because like the second, you know, there's twelve episode. Eleven 546 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 1: episodes probably the last four are really about how the 547 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: alien abduction story changed over time to incorporate new elements 548 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: and and I kind of sort of argue that it 549 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: it kind of collapsed under its own weight, and that 550 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,760 Speaker 1: it's just like it kept becoming more and more extreme 551 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: until it was like, well, millions of people are being abductive, 552 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: but most of them don't know what it is, and 553 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 1: they're making hybrids who might walk among us. And then 554 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: it's like, well where do you go from there? You know, 555 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,840 Speaker 1: it's like you've kind of reached the apex of of 556 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: insanity as far as that goes, and it just kind 557 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: of collapsed. Well, And the more the more specific and 558 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: elaborate story gets, the smaller the population that accepts it 559 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: usually gets, you know what I mean. It's like there's 560 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: a happy medium of there are probably aliens, they've probably 561 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: messed with us, that really seems to resonate with people 562 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: on a very broad scale, and we can start getting 563 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 1: into specifics of that and watching those specifics resonate in 564 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 1: different ways with different people, depending upon again their worldview, 565 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: their cultural background as well as their own personality, as 566 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: well as the small you know groups that they do 567 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: the majority of their communicating within um. But when we 568 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 1: look at that you know, lowest common denominator, we get 569 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: the clear idea that a lot of people think UFOs 570 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: are a possibility. We get the clear idea that a 571 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: lot of people think some people have seen him. We 572 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: get the clear idea that a lot of people think 573 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: our government knows more than they're telling us, or the 574 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 1: governments of the world no more than they're telling us. 575 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: And when we start to see any sort of institutional 576 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,359 Speaker 1: acknowledgment of that, like the declassified reports that have come 577 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: out from the U. S. Military of we caught these 578 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:11,239 Speaker 1: things on camera, what are they? We don't know, that 579 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 1: sort of admission from that level of authority, and just bam, 580 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:21,240 Speaker 1: suddenly a whole slice of people who previously were maybe 581 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,400 Speaker 1: on the skeptical side are now just like, whoa. That 582 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 1: was what was missing for me. That was the resonant 583 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,359 Speaker 1: piece that's going to get me to take this seriously again. 584 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: And so it's a it's an ever shifting landscape, but 585 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: one in which we can stand back and see really 586 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 1: big themes, but we can also zoom in and seem 587 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 1: really see really really specific, small scale, symbolic moments that 588 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 1: are generating that that larger theme. So so this has 589 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 1: been awesome. This has been super interesting. Yes, I agree, 590 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: this has been super interesting. I appreciate all your questions. 591 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,840 Speaker 1: Thanks so much. Hey, thank you, Okay, take care, bye bye. 592 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heart three D 593 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: Audio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Mankey. This episode 594 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: was written and hosted by Toby Ball and produced by 595 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 1: Miranda Hawkins and Josh Same, with executive producers Alex Williams, 596 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick, and Aaron Mankey. Learn more about Strange Rivals 597 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: over at grimm and mil dot com, and find more 598 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: podcasts from my heart Radio by visiting the I Heart 599 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 600 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:36,280 Speaker 1: favorite shows.